7/31/25: Trump Goes Nuclear On Stock Ban, Big Pharma Ousts Top MAHA Official, Sam Altman Warning On ChatGPT, New Corbyn Party, Mearsheimer Says Gaza Is Genocide

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar: Detailed Summary of July 31, 2025 Episode

Hosted by Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti, this episode of "Breaking Points" dives deep into a range of pressing political and technological issues shaping the landscape in mid-2025. Below is an in-depth summary capturing all key discussions, insights, and conclusions, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Presidential Opposition to Congressional Stock Trading Ban

Overview: President Donald Trump vehemently opposes a recently proposed congressional stock trading ban, viewing it as a personal attack, especially targeting Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri.

Key Points:

• Legislation Details: The proposed bill aims to prohibit members of Congress, the President, and Vice President from buying and selling individual stocks, mandating divestment within 90 days of enactment (President and VP exempt until 2029).
• Senator Josh Hawley's Role: Hawley is the lone Republican supporting the bill, collaborating with Democrats to push it forward despite opposition from his party.
• Trump’s Reaction: Trump accuses the Democratic Party of using Hawley as a pawn to sabotage his presidency. He states, “...they’re using Josh Hawley, who I got elected twice, as a pawn. I wonder why Hawley would pass a bill Nancy Pelosi is absolutely in love with...” ([09:23]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar Enjeti: "We are closer than ever to passing this legislation..." ([02:15]).
• Krystal Ball: "I mean, it's obviously a fantastic piece of legislation..." ([10:03]).
• Senator Hawley: In favor of the ban, stating, “This bill would finally redress that. I really don't even know how you could possibly argue with it.” ([08:00]).

Discussion:

• The hosts analyze Trump's motivations, suggesting financial gains from his meme coin have significantly increased his net worth during his administration ([12:20]).
• They critique Senator Hawley for supporting the bill, highlighting internal MAGA dynamics and corporate lobbyist influence ([14:40]).
• Antitrust War Inside MAGA: Krystal and Sagar discuss how lobbyists are undermining populist reforms within the government, leading to corporate capture of key regulatory bodies ([25:56]).

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2. Artificial Intelligence Developments and Privacy Concerns

Overview: The podcast delves into recent interviews and statements by AI leaders like Sam Altman and Mark Zuckerberg, focusing on privacy, the rapid advancement towards Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), and the societal implications.

Key Points:

• Sam Altman's Concerns: In an interview with Theo Vann, Altman highlights the need for legal frameworks to protect user privacy when interacting with AI systems like ChatGPT ([14:11]).
• Mark Zuckerberg on AGI: Zuckerberg signals that Meta is nearing AGI, aiming to replace traditional devices like smartphones with AI-driven interfaces, which could centralize control and economic rewards within tech giants ([53:55]).
• Environmental Impact: The significant resources required for AI development, including water for cooling data centers and energy consumption, are scrutinized ([59:32]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Altman: “We need to have like the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever.” ([05:00]).
• Mark Zuckerberg: “AI keeps accelerating, and superintelligence is now in sight...” ([53:55]).

Discussion:

• Krystal and Sagar express deep concerns over the potential dystopian future where AI controls personal interactions and economic systems.
• They critique Meta’s vision of personal superintelligence as a means to replace human devices, drawing parallels to past corporate monopolies like Google and Apple ([58:08]).

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3. Big Pharma and Regulatory Capture

Overview: The hosts explore the influence of Big Pharma within regulatory bodies, highlighting the ousting of Vinay Prasad, a top FDA official, amid controversies over drug approvals.

Key Points:

• Vinay Prasad’s Tenure: Prasad, known for his skepticism towards Big Pharma, was fired after pausing the accelerated approval of a gene therapy drug linked to two deaths ([29:18]).
• Lobbyist Influence: Powerful lobbyists orchestrated a smear campaign against Prasad, utilizing political figures like Rick Santorum and Laura Loomer to pressure the FDA and the Trump administration ([25:56]-[31:13]).
• Consequences: Prasad’s removal exemplifies the systemic capture of regulatory agencies by corporate interests, undermining public trust and ethical standards ([41:40]).

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal Ball: “This is one of the most direct Big Pharma interventions into the internal workings of the FDA.” ([36:34]).
• Sagar Enjeti: “It's repulsive to me... fired after just three months in office.” ([40:00]).

Discussion:

• The hosts dissect how corporate lobbyists manipulate legislative processes to favor monopolistic practices, using Prasad’s ousting as a case study.
• They link this trend to a broader shift towards a corporatized oligarchy, diminishing democratic accountability ([31:13]).

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4. New Jeremy Corbyn Political Party and UK Political Shifts

Overview: Owen Jones, a UK author and journalist, discusses Jeremy Corbyn’s new political party, its rapid membership growth, and its impact on the traditional two-party system in the UK.

Key Points:

• Party Formation: Corbyn, expelled from the Labour Party in 2020, has launched a new socialist party focused on transformative politics, attracting former Labour members and grassroots activists ([71:31]).
• Support Dynamics: Early indicators show the party surpassing existing parties in membership, leveraging public dissatisfaction with Labour and the Conservative Party’s alignment with MAGA-like factions ([74:08]).
• Future Implications: Jones argues that the fragmentation of the two-party system has opened space for new political movements, though it leads to unpredictable electoral outcomes ([74:38]).

Notable Quotes:

• Jeremy Corbyn: “Labor government has failed. People want real transformative politics. We will give it to them.” ([71:31]).
• Owen Jones: “This is a massive rupture in terms of what came before... it will change politics forever.” ([81:31]).

Discussion:

• The conversation highlights the challenges posed by entrenched party systems and how new parties like Corbyn’s aim to address systemic failures.
• They discuss the likelihood of electoral reforms, such as proportional representation, in response to political fragmentation ([76:48]).

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5. US and International Response to the Gaza Conflict

Overview: The episode addresses the ongoing Gaza conflict, with insights from John Mearsheimer labeling Israel’s actions as genocide, and the UK’s Prime Minister Keir Starmer’s stance on recognizing Palestine under certain conditions.

Key Points:

• Genocide Allegations: Professor John Mearsheimer asserts that Israel’s actions in Gaza constitute genocide, emphasizing the strategic intent to dismantle Palestinian national identity ([84:36]).
• UK’s Position: Keir Starmer announces the UK will recognize Palestine in September unless Israel ceases hostilities, a move scrutinized for its symbolic rather than substantive impact ([66:14]).
• Public Opinion: Polls indicate significant public support in the US for recognizing the situation as genocide, influencing political discourse ([89:08]).
• Media Controversy: The New York Times faces backlash over a misleading photo caption regarding malnutrition in Gaza, illustrating media accountability issues ([99:00]).

Notable Quotes:

• John Mearsheimer: “The Israelis are executing a genocide in Gaza...” ([84:36]).
• Keir Starmer: “I can confirm the UK will recognize the state of Palestine by the United Nations General Assembly in September...” ([66:14]).
• Krystal Ball: “The boy was clearly emaciated... but you’re trying to dismiss the starvation...” ([99:31]).

Discussion:

• Krystal and Sagar debate the use of the term "genocide," with Krystal challenging its definition and implications, while Sagar defends its moral and historical weight.
• They examine the political repercussions of international responses to the Gaza conflict, highlighting the division within global alliances and domestic politics ([77:02]-[95:43]).

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6. Technology and Labor: Microsoft’s H1B Visa Controversy

Overview: The podcast sheds light on Microsoft’s controversial use of H1B visas amidst massive layoffs, reflecting broader issues of corporate disregard for American workers.

Key Points:

• Layoffs and Visa Applications: Microsoft laid off nearly 16,000 employees while simultaneously applying for around 6,000 H1B visas, raising questions about the company's commitment to American labor ([58:08]).
• Labor Rights Critique: The hosts criticize Microsoft and similar corporations for outsourcing jobs and exploiting visa programs to retain cheap labor, sidelining domestic workers’ rights ([62:15]).
• Economic Implications: This trend underscores a shift towards prioritizing profit over workforce stability, exacerbating the challenges faced by American employees in the tech sector ([61:50]).

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal Ball: “They do not care about American workers or labor rights...” ([61:50]).
• Sagar Enjeti: “They are using a slave labor type system...” ([62:15]).

Discussion:

• Krystal and Sagar link Microsoft’s actions to a broader pattern of corporate behavior prioritizing stock prices and control over ethical labor practices.
• They discuss the necessity for stronger government protections to safeguard workers against such exploitative practices ([62:15]-[64:05]).

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7. AI as a Therapeutic Tool and Legal Implications

Overview: The conversation explores the role of AI in personal therapy, privacy concerns, and the potential legal frameworks needed to protect user interactions with AI systems.

Key Points:

• AI in Therapy: Sam Altman discusses the lack of legal privileges for conversations with AI, likening them to therapy sessions that lack confidentiality safeguards ([50:33]).
• Privacy Concerns: Krystal and Sagar express anxiety over the potential for AI interactions to be subpoenaed, drawing parallels to existing issues with data privacy in search engines like Google ([50:36]-[59:48]).
• Future Legal Frameworks: The need for policies ensuring privacy and protection for users interacting with AI, emphasizing how rapidly AI technologies are evolving beyond current regulatory capacities ([50:36]-[59:48]).

Notable Quotes:

• Sam Altman: “We need to have like the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever.” ([05:00]).
• Sagar Enjeti: “They're pushing these bots to be like an intimate part of your life...” ([50:55]).
• Krystal Ball: “The therapy thing really freaks me out because there are documented cases...” ([50:55]).

Discussion:

• The hosts debate the ethical implications of AI as companions or therapists, emphasizing the urgency for legal protections akin to those for traditional professionals.
• They critique Meta’s ambitious AI projects, warning of a future where AI centralizes control over personal and economic aspects of life ([53:55]-[60:00]).

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8. The Use of "Genocide" and Its Political Implications

Overview: A heated debate unfolds between Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti regarding the appropriateness and implications of labeling Israel's actions in Gaza as genocide.

Key Points:

• Definition Debate: Krystal challenges the legitimacy of the term "genocide," arguing it was created post-World War II as a tool for justifying US interventions, while Sagar defends its usage based on moral weight and historical context ([90:54]-[93:45]).
• Political Ramifications: The term's use influences political legitimacy and accountability, shaping responses from policymakers and the public alike ([92:18]).
• Media Responsibility: The New York Times' handling of a Gaza child’s malnutrition case sparks debate over media accuracy and accountability ([99:00]-[99:45]).

Notable Quotes:

• John Mearsheimer: “…they’re trying to destroy Palestinian national identity...” ([84:36]).
• Krystal Ball: “I don't believe in the term genocide...” ([93:27]).
• Sagar Enjeti: “It does have a certain meaning... and comes with historical context...” ([92:16]).

Discussion:

• Krystal and Sagar engage in a robust discussion about the ethical and practical implications of using loaded terms like genocide in political discourse.
• The conversation highlights the tension between achieving moral clarity and maintaining political pragmatism, especially in contexts involving international conflict ([90:54]-[95:43]).

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Conclusion

In this comprehensive episode, Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti navigate through a labyrinth of political scandals, technological advancements, and international conflicts. From scrutinizing legislative battles and corporate malpractices to debating the ethical use of language in geopolitics and the rapid evolution of AI, the hosts provide a piercing analysis of the forces shaping contemporary society.

Final Thoughts:

• The episode underscores the pervasive influence of corporate and political elites, the ethical dilemmas posed by emerging technologies, and the evolving dynamics of global conflicts.
• Krystal and Sagar advocate for greater accountability, transparency, and regulatory frameworks to address these multifaceted challenges.

Relevant Links:

• For more in-depth discussions and exclusive content, listeners are encouraged to visit BreakingPoints.com and consider becoming a member for ad-free and unedited episodes.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the provided transcript excerpts for precise navigation of topics discussed.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

To approval in available locations so what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Left a woman behind to drown.

[Krystal Ball]

Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Listen to United States of Kennedy on.

[Krystal Ball]

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcast. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch this is the Turning River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Leader married himself to 10 girls and.

[Krystal Ball]

Forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Good morning everybody. Happy Thursday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Indeed. We do a lot of interesting things for you this morning. So first of all, President Trump opposing a congressional stock trading ban because it might involve him. So that's very interesting. Going after Josh Hawley aggressively. Lots to get into there some other sort of internal maga drama or Maha drama as well. That is really important, effectively corporate lobbyists being used to spike any sort of potential populist reforms throughout the government. So that's a really important one to track and sadly being very successful with it. We're also taking a look at a few different aspects of AI. You had a Sam Altman interview with the Yvonne that was really interesting, and Mark Zuckerberg sort of indicating that they are getting pretty close to AGI. So have to keep our eyes on this because this could dramatically change your life, the world, et cetera, and in ways that are very difficult to anticipate. We're also going to have Owen Jones on the show to talk about Jeremy Corbyn's new party, which has already surpassed all of the existing parties in terms of membership, which is kind of incredible. The same time you've got Keir Starmer saying that if there isn't a ceasefire, he will recognize a Palestinian state in September. You have the Canadians saying the same thing. Macron had already said the same thing. And Trump, you highlighted this. Trump saying that if they do that, it will imperil their trade deal. So I'm sure you love that from an America first perspective.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely. I mean, of course, it makes sense to subject our trading relationship with our number one trading partner partner, Canada, to its position on the diplomatic status of the nation of Palestine. Definitely makes sense for a lot of American industry. So, yeah, that's where we're at right now.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes. We're also tracking. There was a vote last night in the Senate to block some offensive weapons that were supposed to go to Israel. The TLDR is actually majority of the caucus. This is kind of astonishing. The Democratic Caucus voted for that resolution to block those weapons. Wait and see how Alyssa Slotkin voted, though. Wait and see on that one. Pretty interesting stuff there. And we are also really anticipating and looking forward to speaking to GHF whistleblower Anthony Aguilar, who has been coming forward and talking about what he saw on those at those aid distribution sites. He is receiving some pushback from GHF as well. So we're going to get him to respond to their claims.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right. We're going to ask him all about that. Lt. Col. Aguilar's story is very important. We do, of course, wanna make sure that it stands up to scrutiny. And so we're looking forward to having him on the show. We're gonna have him in the studio and we're gonna get down to it as much as possible. Before we get to that, though, we have some exciting news. Can we go and put a zero please up on the screen. It appears that we are the 25th biggest podcast in the United States. Not Political podcast, 25th biggest podcast in the whole US According to YouTube's latest release of their weekly top podcast shows. That is because of all of you. So thank you all very, very much. And for everyone who maybe you liked, I saw that Alyssa Slotkin interview is nearly at half a million views now. So far on top of and has received a tremendous amount of. We've received a tremendous amount of feedback on it. If you guys wanna see more of that type of stuff. It really helps us out. If you subscribe to the show BreakingPoints.com, we have monthly and we have annual memberships. If you can't afford it, no worries. What we have obviously is you can hit the subscribe button here on YouTube or if you guys are listening to this as a podcast, just go ahead and maybe send that interview. For example, you can send a link to that specifically to a friend, to your parents or whatever. That really, really helps us out and of course leave a five star review. So thank you all very, very much. We have a tremendous amount of growth on the channel just in the last couple of days and so we want to keep that going. BreakingPoints.com if you are able. But with that let's go ahead and get to the news on stock trading ban. I will say I believe we are some of the very first people ever to highlight this issue at a national level in Washington. That's not just me, that's really not me saying it. I think unusual whales the Twitt that really popularized this with his first report back in 2020. He would even tell you that we're the reasons that we really made this popular. I'm not gonna take entire credit but we've highlighted it from the beginning. It's been a five year long journey to actually try and get this piece of legislation through. And we are closer. Except maybe not. Let's go and put this up there on the screen. So just yesterday Donald Trump, it turned out the news came out that after the passage of a stock trading ban that went through a Senate committee which will then report to the House was vehemently attacked here by the president of the why? Because in that stock legislation it also says that it would apply to the vice president and the president. Now keep in mind it would not even apply to the vice president or president until 2029. And yet Trump still unleashes this tirade. Quote, why would one Republican senator Josh Hawley from the great state of Missouri. Join with all Democrats to block a review sponsored by Senator Rick Scott with the support of almost all Republicans of Nancy Pelosi stock trading over the last 25 years. The information was inappropriately released just minutes before the vote. I'm still not really convinced clear what he's saying about that. Quote, very much like sabotage. The Democrats, because of our tremendous achievements and success have been trying to target me for a long period of time and they're using Josh Hawley, who I got elected twice, as a pawn. I wonder why Hawley would pass a bill Nancy Pelosi is absolutely in love with. He is playing right into the dirty hands of the Democrats. It's a great bill for her and her husband, but so bad for our country. I don't think real Republicans want to see their president. It was an unprecedented success targeted because of their whims of their second tier senator named Josh Hawley. Okay, so let's actually take a listen to Senator Hawley on the piece of legislation. I guess it's reported favorably out of the committee. Let's take a listen. 86% of Americans say that members of Congress should not be able to buy and sell shares of stock, individual stock, while they are members of this body. And they are absolutely correct. And the reason for all of this is, is that quite frankly, members of this body are privy to information that the normal person just is not. Now is that insider trading, it is not under the laws. Sometimes people say, well, we already have insider trading laws. We don't need a stock ban. Well, the information that members of Congress are privy to is technically not covered by the insider trading laws. But nobody really believes that the information that we get isn't valuable. It is quite valuable. And so when you look at what members of Congress are privy to, what they are able to trade on, the access that they have, it's just qualitatively different than your average Joe or Jane. Which is why we ought to put into place common sense guardrails. You should not be able to buy and trade individual stock shares in which frankly, we have an interest in the work that we do. We have information that no other people get, no other members of the public have. This bill would finally redress that. I really don't even know how you could possibly argue with it. And Donald Trump himself was actually asked about that. The White House, shortly before he released his tirade against Trump, here's what he had to say. You know, Nancy Pelosi became rich by having inside information. She made a fortune with her husband. And I think that's disgraceful. What I do think is Nancy Pelosi should be investigated because what. She has the highest return of anybody practically in the history of Wall Street. Save a few.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And how did that happen? It happened by.

[Krystal Ball]

She knows exactly what's going to happen, what's going to be announced. She buys stock and then the stock goes up after the announcement. So very comfortable here, of course, talking about Nancy Pelosi. And shockingly, Nancy Pelosi is now actually in favor of the ban. I mean, look, she's in her 80s and she's made her hundreds of millions. So at this point, sure, why not? You know, we can go ahead and pass it. She'll barely be in Congress for much longer. So finally, let's take a listen to her response there to the President. I wanted to give you a chance just to respond. He accused you of insider trading. What's your response to that?

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's ridiculous.

[Krystal Ball]

In fact, I very much support the stop the trading of members of Congress.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Not that I think anybody's doing anything wrong.

[Krystal Ball]

If they are, they are prosecuted and.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They go to jail.

[Krystal Ball]

But because of the confidence it instills.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In the American people.

[Krystal Ball]

Don't worry about this. But I have no concern about the obvious. Investments had been made over time.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'm not into it.

[Krystal Ball]

My husband is.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But it isn't anything to do with anything insider. But the President has his own exposure.

[Krystal Ball]

So he's always projecting.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He's always projecting. And let's not give him any more time on that, please.

[Krystal Ball]

We're going forward here. Let's not spend any more time on it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay?

[Krystal Ball]

Let's just. I mean, listen, credit, I guess, you know, she said pass it. Like I'm not even into it. My husband is. Yeah, he's pretty good at it, actually. Well, okay, let's actually. Crystal. Let's look into this piece of legislation. What is this legislation? It would ban new purchases of individual stocks by covered officials. Okay. The officials must then divest their existing holdings within 90 days after enactment. Officials elected before passage may delay divestment until the start of their next term, meaning that President Trump and Vice President Vance would not even have to divest until 2029. Members would have to certify compliance to respective ethics committees. And every two years, there would be a compliance audit by the Government Accountability Office. Congressional violations, at least 10% of the value of prohibited investments and executive branch violations would disgorge profits. Plus special counsel would find investment value and. Or up to $10,000, whichever is higher, removes all blind trust investments pass through loopholes. Mandates public and searchable financial disclosure databases. Requires note of any federal benefit requested or received by officials, including loans, contracts and grants, with a $500 penalty for non reporting and increases penalties for failing to file under the Stock transaction act from $200 to $500. So, look, I think it's obviously a fantastic piece of legislation and I don't think it's any surprise then why all of these rich members of the Republican Party, and frankly the Democratic Party too, in the background as well, who've been lobbying against this, are against it. I mean, you can take a look at the net worth of all of these individuals, including President Trump, by the way, whose net worth has exploded by billions of dollars thanks to his Trump meme coin under the current administration. He's actually richer today than he's ever been before. Just keep that in mind.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Somewhat like 40% of his net worth is now made just in this administration.

[Krystal Ball]

I think in his first month of the White House, he made like 6 billion. Okay. Not made, but was on paper increased net worth by several billion dollars as a result of this meme coin. I'm just pointing out though, that again, this literally goes to 2029. I would not personally put it past Senator Ron Johnson and Senator Rick Scott, who are both filthy rich. Not just rich, filthy rich. Hundreds of millions of dollars. In trying to tell Trump that this was a, quote, target and attack on him. Because that's why they wanna nuke the legislation.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's two possibilities. One is that he was told that this is to target him and he just bought it and didn't look into it further. Or the other is that he intends to stay in office past 2028. Those are basically the two possibilities. And just to get into a little bit of the inside baseball here on this committee where that it just passed down of in the Senate, Rand Paul was opposed to any form of stock trading ban. So Josh Hawley decided, okay, well, I can't partner with the Republicans. The Democrats were not willing to go along with one that didn't after also include the President and the Vice president. And Rand Paul was just opposed to anything at all. So Hawley made the decision. Okay, well, I'm gonna work with the Democrats to pass something out of committee. So the committee vote was party line. It was. All the Democrats voted for it, all of the Republicans voted against it, except Josh Hawley. And that's how it gets out of committee.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And that's why Trump is targeting Hawley as the one Republican who actually voted for this to come out of committee. So that's kind of the inside baseball of how this all went down and why it did include this prov, which I think is entirely like reasonable and responsible. I mean, if members of Congress have insider information they can trade on, the President has far more than that.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and just think of swing the stock market.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Just think of what we've seen with Trump's like tariff announcements and the way that if you knew the timing of those, the mass amount of profits that you could make. And there are some indications that there have been insiders that have been trading off of that inside knowledge and getting wildly rich because of it. So it is incredibly logical and appropriate that it also apply to the executive branch and specifically to the President, the Vice President.

[Krystal Ball]

The Stuff youf Should Know guys have made their own summer playlists of their must listen podcasts on movies. It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the Stuff youf Should Know Summer Movie playlist. What screams summer more than a nice darkened air conditioned theater and a great movie playing right in front of you? Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stunt men and women, disaster films, even movies that change filmmaking and many more. Listen to the Stuff youf Should Know Summer Movie Playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on Earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next day. Six months. The first night was overwhelming and you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Don'T know who's next to you and.

[Krystal Ball]

We didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to Shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean. But the most unforgettable part, our roommate, Reggie Payne from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper and his stage name Sexy Sweat in 2020. I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 91 1. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died.

[C]

I'm like, thanking you, but then I.

[Krystal Ball]

See my son's not moving. No headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's go ahead and now put a. Let's play a five for everybody to watch. How Senator Ron Johnson, who is worth literally hundreds of millions dollars, describes why this will make it so difficult for people who want to better themselves to get elected. Let's take a listen. We make it very unattractive for people to step up the plate, run for office, or potentially serve in office. You could relabel this law, quite honestly, the Career Politician Protection act, because it'll make it so unattractive for people to give up their business. And we have plenty of protections. We have the disclosures. This is a completely unnecessary piece of legislation. It's gonna create all kinds of unintended consequences. Senator Scott just pointed out one of them. Just one of them. So again, I voted no last time. I'm a strong no this time. Even stronger this time. I will vote no. And we are gonna make it very. Let's keep this in mind. It's just individual stocks. Why is this so? You can still buy the S&P 500 ETF.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You can buy any give up your business. That's just not accurate.

[Krystal Ball]

You can buy a Vanguard mutual fund. You can put your money in treasuries. You can put your money in the S&P 500, which probably you should anyways, if you actually want a diversified portfolio. The only reason why you may want to trade individual stocks is what? Okay, let's all just be honest here, right? You know, the quote unattractive to run for office is just patently absurd. This is one of the wealthiest members of the entire United States Senate. I mean, it flies back and forth in a private jet. I'm not even making this shit up.

[Sagar Enjeti]

If it makes it less attractive for Ron Johnson to serve in the Senate, that is another point in favor of this bill, in my humble opinion.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and same with the. I mean, just people need to really internalize the way that this is all being used as a cover. Like right now, tens of millions of dollars in net Worth for all of these people who are using this as a smokescreen, let's put a six here up on the screen about how the stock trading ban is sparking drama, quote, with the White House. Because the bill again applies to the President and the vice president in 2029. It gives a ton of delay. All it asks is that you don't invest in individual stocks. I just don't know why this should be so unattractive. And by the way, many of these rules already apply to members of the executive branch who are in government service. People need to remember this, that if you are, let's say, a government appointee to, I don't know, I'll just make something up. Like the Commerce Department, you are subject to, to reporting every single one of your individual holdings. And in many cases, you will be required to offload. Especially, let's say you're working on the China desk at Commerce, which means that you would be responsible for doing tariff policy on TSMC on Taiwan. Something like that. You are not allowed to own Nvidia stock. You would especially not buy new Nvidia. So you can buy the S&P 500 if you want to, but you are not. And you have to go through an ethics review both whenever you get hired, I think every year for disclosure at that point and on your way out just to verify that you did not do anything. The only people it doesn't apply to are these elected members of Congress, the vice president and the president. It's outrageous that it's even allowed at all. And it's just one of those where you can watch so clearly how they use Trump's own ego to basically weaponize this type of stuff either. Now, listen, it's also possible, like you said, Trump is like, I'm gonna be president in 2020. Want to. Right. But I mean, patently absurd. I will note, I believe JD Vance has spoken in the past about a stock trading bet. I mean, I think Trump has said it before, but this is one of those Epstein file type things where this is massively popular. You can't be going around over the last four years launching congressional stock trade. You know, there are literally TikTok accounts and others of people who copy the Pelosi trade. Right. And they've actually made a lot of money. A lot of people have done that. They're mostly playing options, by the way. Please do not do that. That if you're an individual person. But my point is just, they have made it into a cultural meme, I think, correctly, that these people obviously have access to information and even if they don't, that the appearance of it is disgusting and undemocratic. And now you know, this is why I think this is such an important story, because you're watching in real time the way that like culture war, brain rot and bullshit is basically used to weaponize on behalf of all the power. And then one guy, Holly, who has some principle or whatever on this issue and he has for the last five years been working genuinely on multiple pieces of co sponsored legislation to try to get this done. You do the right thing and you're nuked from the top of the White House.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And Hawley, by the way, I mean, has been incredibly loyal to Trump, was out there doing the fist pump on January 6, lest you think he's some squishy liberal rhino type. He has been rock solid for Trump. Doesn't matter. Does not matter. And I think there's the Epstein comparison works in another way as well because Trump and whoever the other Republican elected were happy to talk about Epstein, the context of Bill Gates and Bill Clinton and same thing here, they're happy to talk about stock trading ban when it comes to Nancy Pelosi. And she became a center, understandably a fixation of this because she does seem to be really good trader for some reason and they are very wealthy and all these sorts of things, things. But she's far from alone and it is a very bipartisan concern. And then of course the President's corruption dwarfs any of even the insider trading of Nancy Pelosi. It's not even close. When you think about the meme coin, you think about people paying millions of dollars putting that into the meme coin so they can have dinner with the President. I mean it's just he has taken it to the deals that Don Jr. Is doing, the Liv Golf deal, all of that sort of stuff. He has it to a level that is truly on another plane from anything we have seen before and makes Pelosi's trades, not to mention Hunter's paintings, look like child's play. Now that's not to excuse them. That's not to say these aren't things that we shouldn't care about. But he's very happy to talk about corruption when it's Pelosi, but there is zero interest in actually reining it in and looking in the mirror because then that would implicate him and that's certainly not gonna be acceptable. And so also these Republicans who are on the like, they deserve to be put on blast too. A hundred percent, a bunch of These people probably at some point or another paid lip service to caring about this. But once the Dear Leader is implicated in any way, even tangentially, even though it's not even till the next term, suddenly they are lockstep. Every single Republican except Josh Hawley voted against this in committee.

[Krystal Ball]

It's just so absurd. It really is.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And one more thing, because this will be a theme throughout this as we talk about some other stories with regard to corruption, what's going on inside of maga. You know, Trump was never more correct when he said, I get to decide what is maga, what is America First. And Laura Loomer, we're gonna talk about her in a little bit, is probably the person who understood most what that actually meant. And the bottom line is it means total and complete fealty and loyalty to him and his whims and what he wants at every turn. So even for someone like Josh Hawley, who, again, was a loyal soldier, sure. Let the record show how much he has been there for Trump. Even for someone like him, you do one thing that goes against what he wants, and that's it. You're being put on blast on. True story.

[Krystal Ball]

It's ridiculous. Let's go and put the next part up on the screen. This is a story that just highlights kind of more of what we're talking about. This is from our friend Sohrab Amari, and the title is the Antitrust War Inside of maga. Powerful lobbyists are battling populist reformers. And what they talk about here specifically is that one of the people who, by the way, we celebrated here on the show was Gail Slater, who was named as the antitrust chair over at the Assistant Attorney General's Office for Antitrust Enforcement. Now, what they say here specifically, according to a lot of his reporting, is that there was literally a boozy backroom deal, quote, not a figure of speech, it took place, who described a meeting between government officials and lobbyists at one of Washington's, quote, private city clubs over cocktails. And that during this, lobbyists basically went after these former DOJ officials and others to get them both fired and to allow a merger to go through which was being blocked by these antitrust enforcers. I mean, I would not sit here and claim antitrust was some key provision of MAGA or any of that, but at an intellectual level, it was one embrace. Gail Slater used to work for J.D.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Vance.

[Krystal Ball]

This is somebody who. Josh Hawley, who we just talked about. JD Many other members of the newer, younger right were very skeptical of Big Tech, very skeptical of big business and hired many of these people to operationalize that. But what you see inside of the story is basically using these lobbyists in these deals to then get people fired from the Department of Justice who are working on these, to allow these types of transactions to go through. It's just totally ridiculous.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, no, absolutely. And Rahim Kassam, who was a Bannon war room guy and potentially has some information.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not like some shitlib. Okay? Just so people understand.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Definitely not. But he says about all of this. He says, what if I told you this was happening? Because greedy, fake MAGA world grifters and lobbyists are upset that the antitrust team was actually doing their job instead of taking cash from big corporates to turn a blind eye to monopolistic practices. And so it reminds me, Sagar, of early on when you had Zuckerberg and you had Andreessen going on the Rogan podcast and using their appearances to knife the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which is something that should be favored by anyone who would dare call themselves a populist. And they framed it as like they have this ideological war against conservatives, which was just total. I mean, it was the opposite of the truth. They literally were portraying this completely backwards. But that was a signal of how much power these corporate forces and big tech has been fully brought into this administration, how much power those forces were ultimately.

[Krystal Ball]

And this settlement I'm talking about specifically is Hewlett Packard and Judah. It's kind of complicated. It is technology related, though, so people should understand. But basically the background of it is that they had come to a settlement. The settlement was continued under the Trump administration, was started by the Biden administration. That settlement went forward. It was near finalization, did not meet approval, actually, by Gail Slater. Eventually, Pam Bondi and her people come over the top rope and they're like, no, this thing is going through. It's gonna happen. And then what happens from there is that two of her top deputies are fired on Monday. So that's the background of how this all works. And our friend Matt Stoller actually really wrote about this. A8, please, up on the screen. And what he says is, quote, like the rest of the government under Trump, the antitrust division just got turned into a pay to play operation. Four senators are trying to expose what's happening to antitrust and our society. But really what he's trying to point out here is the ability for a lot of these people to weaponize, like, quote, MAGA and lobbying inside of the division, where not only are they getting what they want, but they're actively targeting and getting fired. Many people who are working on this in good faith. Like as Stoller says, quote, the stakes here are immense. I guess what I call Trump has done the Bizarro New Deal cuz it's a reordering of our constitutional system. And he specifically talks about the ability for these like corrupt lobbyists and other people to put pressure onto Trump, you know, or at least Trump administration officials to allow this stuff to go through. So again, I know this can sound nitty gritty, but in the story that we're about to get to on Maha, involving my friend Dr. Vinay Prasad, it's really important because this stuff has real ability to get people, people fired who were actual reformers who did make it into the government.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it also exposes why Wall street was happy to have Trump back and continues to be happy with Trump in spite of all the tariff insanity. On again, off again, et cetera, is because they feel like, well, if you have the money to get it to the table, you're gonna get what you want. And that's what happened here. That's exactly what happened in this instance. These lobbyists had these cozy relationships with various DOJ employees and they were able to make what Saurabh describes as boozy backroom deals to ultimately get their way. And Stoller writes, in part, it's a really good piece. I recommend people read it because it talks. It sort of uses this situation as the peg, but then takes a broader view of overall what's happening within the Trump second administration. And he says, you know, a lot of what this is based on is sort of like pyramid scheme mentality or con artist mentality. He says the architecture of scam discourse is to tell a popular story based on distrust in the establishment while offering a get rich quick moral solution. Criticisms are forms of negative thinking must be avoided. Any critique of particular leaders represents a personal failure on the part of the person making the negative observation. Meanwhile, the insiders running the pyramid scheme operate like a mafia. Instead of dons negotiating with one another about how to divide the wealth they've extracted. All public narratives are tools to extract. Everyone is ruthless and expendable and the notion of good faith does not exist. That doesn't mean, oddly enough, these people are all bad, just that when they do useful things, it's merely ancillary. And he says all of this bizarro New Deal is shifting us towards a far more hierarchical, corporatized state, AKA an oligarchy. So not to say Things were great before, but the level of explicit pay to play is on a level, you know, it's of a different character than what we've experienced in the past. And again, that's why Wall street is happy with this. Because if you have the money to get the seat at the table, you are by and large gonna to get what you want, including people fired.

[Krystal Ball]

The stuff you should know Guys have made their own summer playlists of their must listen podcasts on movies. It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the stuff you should know summer movie playlist. What screams summer more than a nice darkened air conditioned theater and a great movie playing right in front of you? Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stunt men and women, disaster films, even movies that change filmmakers and many more. Listen to the stuff you should know summer movie Playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking.

[C]

The code on DNA using new scientific tools.

[Krystal Ball]

They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's crime lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at office, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennesse Inn. But the most unforgettable part, our route roommate Reggie Payne from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper and his stage name, Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 91 1. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a car and died.

[C]

I'm like thanking you, but then I.

[Krystal Ball]

See my son's not moving. No Headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to finding sexy Sweat on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That is a perfect transition to our next story on Dr. Vinay Prasad. Many of you might remember Dr. Prasad. He's been on the show a couple of times. Somebody whose research and analysis I relied on a lot during the COVID pandemic. He, just in case anybody doesn't remember, was literally, you know, a credentialed doctor with a background in epidemiology, a longtime career of publishing reports specifically about how big pharma, you know, runs drug trials through. He was appointed at the FDA as the head of biologics, which is genuinely one of the most important deaths at the fda, responsible for the approval of a lot of new experimental drugs, vaccinated vaccines and more. A massive portfolio for which he was obviously highly credentialed, as well as somebody who had a lot of Maha sympathies and was really kind of a Maha figure in his own right, going from a doctor starting his own YouTube channel, becoming a really reliable source for a lot of people who have those sympathies. Well, guys, he was just summarily fired from the fda. Let's go and put this up there on the screen, and I'm gonna explain this story. So. And the headline here, by the way, is not entirely accurate. It says, vinay Prasad, a powerful FDA official, departs after controversy over rare disease drugs. This was top deputy to Marty Macri. This is gonna be a little complicated, so everybody stick with me. And I'm relying on the analysis of actual doctors to break some of this story down. So here's really what it all gets to, is that there was this new experimental drug, all right, this new experimental drug from a company, Sarepta. Now, what happened is that they got accelerated approval, approval for a new experimental drug on the promise they would complete phase four trials. The phase four trials never got done in that time period. It was linked to at least two deaths. Its approval and expedition was then paused, not even stopped, paused by Vinay Prasad as his. Under his new. Under his new desk over at the fda, as in he's doing his job. You have a biotech company here which has made some $2 billion or whatever on the back of this drug, holding all these press conferences about accelerated approval for this new experimental that has to do with gene therapy. Well, it ends up being linked there to a couple of deaths. Now, it's not entirely clear that it caused or anything, but it obviously should bear some scrutiny. That's exactly what you would want. Your top FDA official who's in charge of approving. Disapproving what? Whatever new experimental drugs to do. Okay. There's a lot of powerful interests. We don't care. It's linked to some debts. Let's pause, let's figure out what's going on. What happens is that that company and others start a public lobbying campaign against Vinay Prasad. Rick Santorum, who everyone will remember who's the former. I think he's a governor of Ohio. I forget exactly where he's from.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's been a while since he's senator from Pennsylvania.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Senator ran from Penn. President.

[Krystal Ball]

He ran for president in 08. Famously. What? He wins the Iowa caucuses, position himself.

[Sagar Enjeti]

As populist, by the way.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. So Rick Santorum and Laura Loomer start a campaign against Prasad. Now, I guess credit to Santorum, his campaign against Prasad was based entirely on the drug. Laura Loomer, however, has started attacking Vinay Prasad as quote, a leftist saboteur. Let's go and put this up there on the screen just for an example. She says, we have a crisis at the fda. A wolf in sheep's clothing is sabotaged. Make America healthy again. Dr. Prasad, a self proclaimed progressive liberal and Bernie Sanders fanboy, wormed his way into a top FDA role as the director for center for Biologics Evaluation and Research.

[Sagar Enjeti]

She made me like him more.

[Krystal Ball]

Appointed by RFK Jr. There is no bureaucratic misstep as a catastrophic vetting failure threatens to derail America first healthcare revolution. Assad's anti Trump rhetoric, radical left wing ideology and deliberate actions to obstruct our president's deregulatory mission prove he's dangerous. Misfit. The time to act is now. He must be removed before he destroys Trump's vision for a healthier America. Now here's the thing. Let's put B3 up there on the screen. This is from Aneesh Kocha, friend of mine. And here's what he points out. He says their stock was cut into half, trading over 60 on news that Vinay was hired as the director which oversees the vaccines and gene the therapy now that the person is likely to be fired for his controversial decisions. So it's going to regain some of their evaluation. And Biostox now points out on SArepta A welcome FDA reversal after our editorial. The agency has relented to allow the new treatment for this disease. But the point behind all of this is that he was fired. And let's keep this in mind. He technically resigned, but this went all the way up to Trump himself. RFK Jr. And Dr. Marty Macri, the head of the FDA, went to bat for Vinay and were like, no, he's legit and all of this. And Trump was like, no quote, he said bad things against me or whatever, he's gotta go. And so he basically, after just three months in office, is forced to resign. Let's just again really ruminate on this is that you have a doctor, okay? His crime is what, being a living a couple of years ago, who's RFK Jr. Am I taking crazy pills here? You have a person who genuinely was one of the most credentialed voices speaking out against Covid mask hysteria, vaccine mandates, myocardial. What else do you people possibly want? Like you have somebody with a long background of questioning Big Pharma's influence on oncology drugs, which is his previous specialty, coming into office scrutinizing a drug which again was linked to a couple of deaths, and then getting Rick Santorum and Laura Loomer to do their dirty work and to fire him. I mean, it's completely outrageous. It's genuinely not only character assassination, but real ramifications. And look, don't we want. According to RFK Jr. One of the precepts of MAHA is that the FDA is captured by Big Pharma. What is more being captured by Big Pharma than getting a guy fired for refusing to or for holding up the approval of a drug which did not, according to their internal scrutiny, did not meet the standards that they want? Again, just for pausing, based on deceptive, according to them, approval status for what they gave. Now I'm choosing my words carefully cuz people have a lot of money and I'm sure they're very liable to sue. So I'm not claiming any linkerage or any of that. I'm morely pointing to the fact that he came into office, they had a huge stock problem, Rick Santorum and them get on the camera, the entire biotech lobby starts going after Vinay Prasad, Laura Loomer comes over the top, gets this guy fired, and now the company is super happy. But beyond that, the people who scrutinize and look at the fda, even nonpartisan, are aghast at this thing because they're like, this is one of the most direct Big Pharma interventions into the internal workings of the fda. And of course the FDA is captured by Big Pharma. We're not stupid. In terms of the way that they pay for it. If there were the revolving door, there is no denial of that. These are things that have been highlighted by RFK Jr in them himself. So the fact that this entire smear campaign worked against somebody who genuinely was just doing his job on this, it's repulsive to me. It's genuinely disgusting. Fired after just three months in office and now what do you and I know some fucking stooge is gonna take his place over there or. Or worse, somebody who's not nearly as credentialed with enough of a background. Yes, I'm telling you, he was as good as it got over there. And like, you could not ask for that. And what's the entire point of Maha? It's a big coalition. We had all these liberal moms in California, Gunrolla people to come into the Republican party, but that's now being used against him because he used to be a lib who supported universal healthcare. Like, okay, you know, is that a crime now?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Ask RFK Jr because to Stoller's point, it's the scam. I mean, fundamentally, it's a scam. And where is RFK Jr. Where is RFK Jr. On this? You know, he hasn't spoken out again, so he didn't do anything.

[Krystal Ball]

Try to keep an eye on, allegedly spoke up for him.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't know. Well, we haven't heard it publicly, that's for sure. Didn't do any different. It didn't make any difference at the end of the day. I mean, listen, Vinay Prasad, we had him on the show. He was, you know, I don't think that I agree with him on everything, but he was an intelligent person who was genuinely trying to sort through the data on. On vaccines. And he's not someone who's just like, he's not an anti vax crank. He was questioning. Okay, well, do you think that it's required to have the COVID vaccine for children?

[Krystal Ball]

Teenage boys.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Teenage boys, where there's the highest risk factor. These are things that we should consider. Okay, that seems reasonable.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. What is unreasonable about that?

[Sagar Enjeti]

And the thing too, to your point about like, I mean, it really does expose how there was just like no principle involved here whatsoever. The whole reason to bring in someone like Vinay Prasad is because he did have that skepticism of like, okay, well, maybe not all of these medical treatments are not for everyone. That's the whole reason that he was there. And so now when he's doing the thing that you literally brought him in to do, it's Nope. The pharma lobbyists, they get to win the day. And listen, I have known, I don't know about this drug. I don't know whether it's approved or not approved or paused or not paused or whatever. But it's very clear there was a big business led ideological agenda against him. And the thing that really sank him was Laura Loomer digging up his old tweets where he's talking about Bernie Sanders. And by the way, a lot of these tweets are of the format of like, I used to be on the left and support Bernie Sanders. I'm so disappointed with the way that progressives have embraced Covid mandates, et cetera, et cetera. That was what a lot of the tweets that she sort of dug up to prove that he was such a lefty that he couldn't and a Trump hater that he couldn't possibly be in the administration. And so, so that's what I was saying before about, look, Laura Loomer, the reason she's so effective is because she actually understands what MAGA is. It's a cult of personality. And if you can convince the President that someone is insufficiently loyal, then they're gonna be gone. She did the same thing. I didn't object to this one as much when she nuked the guy who was supposed to be head of NASA. That was Elon's person that he wanted in there. And she found some, I don't know, donations to a couple Democrats and that was enough to get him axed as well and pulled out. So, yeah, she actually understands that there is no real ideology here. It is the cult of personality. And if you can frame something as MAGA or Maha or America first and find some tweet from the past where they expressed any sort of liberal values or criticism of Trump, that's enough to be able to get your agenda.

[Krystal Ball]

And I'll show you guys how this all works from the Wall Street Journal. Go ahead and put B5 up there on the screen. This was one of the editorials just four days ago, led to the ousting, helped lead to the ousting of Vinay. Vinay Prasad is a Bernie Sanders acolyte in Maha drag. I mean, no, he is maha. The point is, is that they're the people who are in maha drag because they want speedier approvals for drugs that could be linked to deaths.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They called him a one man death panel.

[Krystal Ball]

A one man death panel.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And there were multiple Wall Street Journal op EDS about this. The same thing by the Way.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, quote, like Dr. Fauci, Dr. Prasad thinks he knows what's best for people. That's not the government's job to make it happen. You know, he, quote, he previously said, I favor a strong regulatory state. Just as Dr. Fauci slowed experimental HIV. Yeah, that's the same. Like, get out of here. In recent weeks, the FDA has rejected three therapies for this debilitating diseases that have shown promise in clinical trials. The agency was forced off the market. A gene therapy that can slow degenerative loss of muscular function and young, young boys which genetic mutations. Behold America's strong and arbitrary regulatory state at work. Not to mention, though, that this treatment was costing millions and of course, is padding the bottom line of the drug maker. This is why it is just so ridiculous, because you literally could not ask for somebody better to actually come in to be skeptical of this and to say that he's motivated, you know, by or any of this ideology ridiculous. Because long before COVID this guy has like a decade plus of publishing. Specifically how the FDA is way too, you know, easy with drug approval, is too captured by pharma. He has written some of the best skeptical analysis I've ever seen on so many different drug approvals that have nothing to do with COVID by the way. Different screening and other things which he says are captured. Captured by big money. This is the Maha critique. And I know, by the way this is true because I know a bunch of Maha figures are disgusted by this. But listen, guys, this is the movement that you're all in right now. And the fact that very few people are actually speaking out against it shows you who all really runs the show. I mean, I don't know. Good luck, because whoever takes this job, we all know, is gonna be a lot more. And even if somebody who is a Nouve and somebody like that, what do you learn from them? What do you learn from this? Do not piss off the maga, right? Big Pharma, or any of these other people. It's terrible, terrible precedent. And that's why I think it's such an important story. The antitrust story and this one, because this is how business is being done in Washington. This is about as the opposite of like, drain the swamp or whatever that people get. And I think this also, I'm hoping this one resonates because so many of you probably know him from YouTube, from this show, from, you know, I mean, he's been on so many different podcasts and. And all this. He's such an effective science communicator. I really could not think of somebody better who you would want in the job, but good luck. Congratulations, Laura. Congratulations to Rick Santorum. I guess I'm gonna go out and buy Septerra stock. Okay. Might as well make some money if this is the country that we're all gonna live in. All right, let's go on to tech. This is a similarly important story here. Theo Vaughn recently sat down with Sam Altman about privacy and AI, actually. Fascinating, Fascinating. Let's take a listen. What legal system do does AI have to work by? Is there like a legal. Like we have laws, like in the world, right, like in the human world? Yeah. So I think we will certainly need a legal or a policy framework for AI. One example that we've been thinking about a lot. This is like a maybe not quite what you're asking. This is like a very human centric version of that question. People talk about the most personal in their lives to judge GPT. It's, you know, people use it, young people especially, like, use it as a therapist, a life coach having these relationship problems. What should I do? And right now, if you talk to a therapist or a lawyer or a doctor about those problems, there's like legal privilege for it. You know, like, it's. There's doctor patient confidentiality, there's legal confidentiality, whatever. And we haven't figured that out yet for when you talk to ChatGPT. So if you go talk to ChatGPT about your most sensitive stuff and then there's like a lawsuit or whatever, whatever, like we could be required to produce that. And I think that's very screwed up. I think we should have like the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever. And no one had to think about that even a year ago. And now I think it's this huge issue of, like, how are we going to treat the laws around this? Well, do you think there should be like, kind of like a. Like a slowing things down before we move there kind of. Because, yeah, that is kind of wild. It's one of the reasons I get scared sometimes to use certain AI stuff because. Because I don't know how much personal information I want to put in because I don't know who's going to have it. I think we need this point addressed with some urgency. And, you know, the policymakers I've talked to about it, like, broadly agree. It's just, it's new and now we got to do it quickly. Do you talk to ChatGPT? I don't talk to it that much. One of the. Is it because of this? I think it is. It's because it's like. I think it makes sense to not talk to J. No, no, no. To, like, really want the privacy clarity before you use up a lot. Yeah. Like the legal clarity. Yeah. It's scary. And it's like, well, how long does it take lawmakers to come up with that? And then it feels like it's moving so fast that it's like it doesn't even matter. That sometimes it's like it doesn't even really matter. It's like, are we even waiting for the laws to be put around this or. Or what's going on? Does it feel like it's moving too fast for you? Sometimes. The last few months, it felt very fast. It feels faster and faster, but the last few months have felt very fast. I don't know. I really. I'm curious what you make of that conversation. I read it two ways because, number one, I think it's. It is objectively crazy that, you know, information, all of whatever you put into AI is subject to subpoena or whatever from the government. All your private information. Let's be honest, though, that's been true of Google search now for 20 years. So it's not exactly a big change. But I'm also pretty skeptical of the idea that they should be like, that their privacy or their information on you should be subject to a privacy standard which they themselves get to control. So I feel very torn about the entire thing. Cause it really just highlights the story of power. Power around this and about personal information.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

You know what I mean? Because. Because what Sam is advocating.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, Sam says you're right to not use ChatGPT. I mean, that's pretty wild.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. By the way, I'm screwed. You know, I respect GPT for a long time.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And here's what's different about ChatGPT versus Google to some extent, is it's being sold in part as like, oh, this can be your buddy. Yes. This can be your therapist.

[Krystal Ball]

The therapy thing really freaks me out because there's those documented cases of people with Schizo using ChatGPT, and it gets them to do even crazier stuff. They validate their insane beliefs.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's right. And then you have, you know, with Grok, you now have these. What do they call them, companions. You know, they're really. They're really pushing these things, these bots, to be like an intimate part of your life. And that is different than Google Search. So I think it needs to be addressed. I do think there needs to be some sort of like, you know, patient client, privileged information kind of a situation, or even asking for legal advice, like all of that. But I'll tell you, I watched this whole conversation. I think it's worth watching, I thought. Theo asked some very incisive and interesting questions, including at one point, he asked Sam Altman if he was just like a charming Terminator, which was like, yeah, I think you kind of nailed it with that one. And he asked him at another point if him and his other like Peter Thiel and these other tech guys are fully human or if they're like more robot than human, which was elicited an interesting response as well. But Sam at one point spells out his sort of like, what he's floating as how to deal with the AI revolution in which, you know, many jobs, most of human labor is rendered basically irrelevant. Relevant. And he spells. I mean, you should listen to what he has in mind. It's basically like a one world government, new world order. We all have these chits that we can buy and trade with each other that come out of the benevolence of Sam and the other tech overlords who are going to allot us our certain number of chits. That's the sort of thing that he has in mind for what the world is going to look like. Like, and he's very casual about the amount of change. Like, he acknowledges this is gonna be like, the world is not gonna be the way that it was before. It's gonna be completely different. And then you're like, how? And he's like, I don't know. And you should be like, that should make you very, very nervous. So there's another interesting exchange where I think Sam asked Theo, you know, if people could vote about should the text stop, what do you think that they would vote? And Theo was like, I think they'd vote to stop it. Or at least pause. Or at least like, you know, I think he said, like, put some sugar in the gas tank or something, like, slow it down. And of course, that is. We've seen the polling. Overwhelmingly, people are very uncomfortable with the pace of change and the lack of any sort of thought put into how this is going to completely transform humanity. Human relations, like, the, you know, the fact that we derive so much of our dignity and self worth and identity from work, and their idea is just to wipe that away. And there's no care or thought being put into any of this. Yeah, I think it's reasonable to be quite concerned about that. And I don't think you will come away from this conversation with Sam Altman feeling any less concerned than you did going in.

[Krystal Ball]

I totally agree, especially whenever you start to link it to Mark Zuckerberg's recent announcement about how super intelligence is very nearly here. Now, keep in mind, this is. I want to explain the business factors behind this. Mark Zuckerberg has always hated Apple. Why? Because Apple and the iPhone is the gateway to the Instagram and the Facebook blue app, which means that they control and have effectively hurt their business on advertising. So he is obsessed with the idea of building the new iPhone, the new platform. That's why they're going all in on those Meta glasses, because they want the glasses to replace the phone, to be the sole way that you interact with technology, so they can roll up the entire economic reward and take it away from the future of Apple. Keep that in mind for why they're spending literally trillions of dollars now on superintelligence and on AI, because they want to break through and make the first piece of, like, consumer electronics, which fully is able to replace your experience with the phone. So keep all of that in mind with what he's saying here about how super intelligence is actually pretty quick and about what the future of technology. Technology is going to look like. Let's take a listen. I want to talk about our new effort, Meta Superintelligence Labs, and our vision to build personal superintelligence for everyone. AI keeps accelerating, and over the past few months, we've begun to see glimpses of AI systems improving themselves. So developing superintelligence is now in sight. But there's this big open question about what we should direct superintelligence towards. A lot has been written about the scientific and economic advances that AI can bring, and I'm really optimistic about this. But I think an even more meaningful impact in our lives is going to come from everyone having a personal superintelligence that helps you achieve your goals, create what you want to see in the world, be a better friend, and grow to become the person that you aspire to be. This vision is different from others in the industry who want to direct AI at automating all of the valuable work. At Meta, we believe in putting the power of superintelligence in people's hands to direct it towards what they value in their own lives. Lives. Some of this will be about improving productivity, but a lot of it may be more personal in nature. This is going to be a new era in some ways, but in others, it's just A continuation of historical trends. About 200 years ago, 90% of people were farmers growing food to survive. Today, fewer than 2% grow all of our food. Advances in technology have freed much of humanity to focus less on subsistence and more on the pursuits that we choose. And at each step along the way, most people have decided to use their newfound productivity to spend more time on creativity, culture, relationships, and just enjoying life. And I expect superintelligence to accelerate this trend even more. So you guys can see that we want super intelligence for everyone and we're all going to have better friends because that's definitely been a consequence. I mean, this is. Look every. It's all out in the open. They want the comedic glasses to replace the iPhone. They want the AI superintelligence to become the sole way that we all interact. It's going to be Minority Report. That's their vision. And you know, it sounds kind of cool until you start thinking about the economics of it. Because already there's this huge debate within ChatGPT about what future free ChatGPT should look like. And everyone's like, guys, just copy Google and put ads in the feed. Like, why don't we just. And so that really raises the question of like, if you think about what quote went wrong with Google search, if anything did go wrong, it was not just the introduction of AdWords, but about how the ranking became disaggregated from what was the best content and ultimately just came about trying to sell you as many ads as humanly possible. Obviously, it's turned out to be an incredible business for all of them. That's basically what Facebook did too. You know, it was a bankrupt company, it made no money. And then they were like, oh, we got to put ads in the feed. Same with Instagram. I mean, it took forever, but they eventually turned it into a multi, multibillion dollar business. YouTube, same thing. For a lot of people who are watching this video for free, you probably had to sit there and wait or you had to pay for YouTube Premium. But that's the dystopian corporatized future of what this all looks like. And it's actually all a fight for making it so that you put all your attention and use on the device just so they can sell you either advertising or you have to pay for the privilege of not being subjected to advertising. I pay $20 a month for ChatGPT.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, well, these people are terrifying. I mean, they're terrifying. They are terrifying. And the idea is basically that, you know, think of how much power they already have if Their dreams and wishes and aspirations come true. They will be basically like all powerful figures that control what we can all do on this entire planet. I mean that's what they're aiming for if you listen to them. There's a chilling moment in that interview with Sam Altman and Theo. Theo makes again very incisive comment of when you look at these data centers from above, it looks like you're turning the planet into like a computer like circuit board. And Sam Altman's like, yeah, that is what it's going to look like. Yes, that is what we're. Because they are so massive. And then there's the questions too of like the resources that it takes. There's already huge burdens in terms of the water that's needed. I mean the amount of water that is needed to cool these things is like unbelievable. The amount of power that's taken. And Theo asked him about that and Sam says basically like, well, we're hoping to get to fission energy and then that'll solve the problem and we believe that AI will help us to get there. So we need to race to get to fission energy. We need to build out and consume all the resources now so that we can hope to get to fission energy to solve the problem with the AI in the future. Future. That's what they're betting on?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So I mean the whole thing is just incredibly disturbing, dystopian. The implications are beyond anyone, including people who are developing its capacity to really comprehend. And we're just barreling towards it 1000mph with all of the brakes cut.

[Krystal Ball]

And another thing I want to highlight, this was flagged to me by a couple of friends of mine. Let's go and put this up there on the screen. Is that the behavior of these companies too is really down horrible in terms of how they view American workers. So this is an H1B visa scandal that came out of Microsoft. So quote Microsoft's H1B visa applications are questioned amid mass layoffs. So very recently they are growing pressure to account for its new H1B visa requests, affecting around 9,000 employees. So what happened is, is that they fired 9,000 people. Two waves in May and June affecting another 8,000 total. The company has laid off nearly 16 people in total this year out of the 228,000 strong global employee base. In the weeks though that followed those layoff announcements, you began to see that the company had apparently applied for some 6,000 high skilled work visas or H1B since October, the current start of the fiscal year. And While that number, what they look at is that they applied last year for a similar number of some 9,491 H1B visas, all of which were approved. This remember the whole H1B scandal that we covered, what was it six months ago or some by the way, Elon and Trump very approving of this. This demonstrates, I want to see for everybody that they don't care even about the tech workers here in America. They will outsource it all. Use this like slave labor type system where you basically have these guys locked to a desk with these contracts. Fire people who have actual rights, like labor rights here as Americans citizens. But this is all part of a scheme to just roll things up to the bottom line. Microsoft is of course partnered with who, OpenAI and with ChatGPT. Right. They. The most use of AI and ChatGPT apparently that I have heard of is in the Microsoft Teams. A lot of our corporate listeners will understand what I'm saying, but like they use AI as part of their enterprise software. So I'm just showing people here how they do not. They do not care care about American workers and or labor. And now this is a global problem because they don't really care about any workers. They don't care about anyone. They do not care about human.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They care about humanity.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, they don't. Their entire mission is just to increase stock price, their own personal wealth and control. And so this is exactly why, by the way, we need more actual government protection for a lot of the workers who are also the irony is these are the people who are actually implementing AI at a enterprise level level and are being screwed over by the H1B visa system. I mean, listen, it's just ridiculous.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Listen to Peter Thiel hem and ha when he's asked whether he thinks the human race should persist.

[Krystal Ball]

I wish I had been here for that. That was amazing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Listen to how he hems and haws last thing and then we'll get to Owen Jones here, who's standing by a CEO was bragging in an interview about how excited he is to fire people because of AI. To your point, Elijah Clark, a chief executive who advises other head Honchos on using AI at their company companies, says CEOs are extremely excited about the opportunities AI brings. As a CEO myself, I can tell you I'm extremely excited about it. I've laid off employees myself because of AI. AI does not go on strike. It doesn't ask for a pay raise. These things that you don't have to deal with as a CEO. So there you Go. If you had any question in your mind about how they think about you and how they will treat you in the future, here you go. They are three thrilled to be able to fire you and make your life a living hell.

[Krystal Ball]

There you go. All right. And then replace you, by the way, with cheap labor if they actually poor a robot. Yeah. So, okay, got it. That's why we need a lot more. All right, Owen Jones, standing by. Let's get to it. The stuff you should know guys have made their own summer playlists of their must listen podcasts on movies. It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the stuff you should know Summer movie playlist. What screams summer summer more than a.

[C]

Nice darkened air conditioned theater and a.

[Krystal Ball]

Great movie playing right in front of you? Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stunt men and women, disaster films, even movies that change filmmaking and many more. Listen to the stuff youf should know Summer movie Playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennis. But the most unforgettable part, our roommate, Reggie Payne from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper and his stage name, Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 91 1. Police cuffed him face and down. He slipped into a coma and died.

[C]

I'm like thanking you, but then I.

[Krystal Ball]

See my son's not moving. No headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up, a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking.

[C]

The code on DNA using new scientific tools.

[Krystal Ball]

They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are a whole bunch of interesting things happening in the uk. So we brought in our friend Owen Jones, who is an author and journalist and also has a great YouTube channel to break all of this down for us. Great to see you, Owen.

[Krystal Ball]

Good to see you.

[C]

Great to see you. How you doing guys?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Very good. So Keir Starmer has announced his plan to potentially recognize a Palestinian state in September if there is no ceasefire. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that today.

[C]

Today, as part of this process towards.

[Krystal Ball]

Peace, I can confirm the UK will recognize the state of Palestine by the United Nations General assembly in September unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to.

[C]

End the appalling situation in Gaza, agree to a ceasefire and commit to a long term sustainable peace. Reviving the problem, prospect of a two state solution.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So Owen, what do you make of this move and how much pressure has Starmer been under?

[C]

Firstly, put a trigger warning on next time. Before you just put Keira Starmer on. I was in quite a Zen place before. It's nauseating, sincere nauseating stuff. Using the inalienable right of the Palestinian people to national self determination as what? Leverage as a bargaining chip? I mean, it's just great. Gross. And it makes no logical sense whatsoever. By the way, what's he arguing for here? That what, you know, Britain won't recognize the state of Palestine if Israel tones down its genocide a bit. Keir Starmer at the very beginning of this genocide. He was in the opposition at the time, but was seen rightly as the Prime Minister in waiting and had huge influence as opposition leader. He backed the right of Israel to, to. To impose a siege against the people of Gaza. He said that Israel does have that right. He's a human rights lawyer. I know what Article 33 of the Geneva Convention, amongst other parts of international law say. He certainly does. He then tried to gaslight everyone to saying he didn't actually believe that. That's just one example of what we're dealing with here is Britain continues to provide crucial components for the F35 jets which are raiding death and destruction on the people of Gaza. Britain is refusing to impose actual proper sanctions on Israel. They did sanctions against two far right ministers which is very easy, Bezalel and Smoche. Sorry, Ben GVIR and smochev, it's very easy to make them the bogeymen because rather than imposing actual sanctions on Israel, I could go on, I mean he chose a symbolic action which he's. And I'm not saying it's not important to recognize Palestinian right to national self determination, I'm not saying that but just factually speaking there isn't going to be a Palestine left to recognize.

[Krystal Ball]

So Owen, this is wiped out. My question is about where this is coming from. Is it from internal politics in the uk like where does this level of pressure? Because as you said, yeah, we can separate the decision itself but clearly it's a result of something not just the situation in Gaza and it's joining France and I believe Canada as well which has made similar announcements. So was this like an internal NATO discussion? What's your assessment for like where Keir Starmer is coming from in making this announcement at this time?

[C]

I mean it is partly clear that they're working in lockstep because they for example with the sanctions on the two far right ministers that was done in coordination with each other they've issued a lot of letters together European nations which are expressing their sacrifice, sadness and disappointment of what Israel's doing without actual any teeth and so it's definitely that he is under pressure in terms of there.

[Krystal Ball]

Are.

[C]

200 plus members of parliament wrote demanding that he recognize the state of Palestine. That has a lot to do with the mass protests we've seen in this country. Huge numbers have been involved in protests. Labour lost to of Keir Starmer's main allies last year in the general election to candidates either in the Green Party or anti genocide candidates who stood making Gaza's genocide the Israel's genocide a key fundamental issue we're going to talk about the new party that's just been set up that he is under pressure but that you know it's not meaningful action that's been taken all the options actually available to him he's taken the tokenistic one and made it a bargaining chip. So it does show he looks flustered by the way he does look concerned. He's less popular than cholera at the moment in the opinion polls but you know the government's falling apart but this is tokenistic and an attempt and it's not what had any impact because it's actually caused fury amongst pro Israel people who are so deranged that any acceptance of Palestinian humanity is likely to set them off but at the same time time it obviously has caused fury amongst those who oppose the genocide for the reason themselves in the uk.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. It's an attempt for him to not really take any side and in doing so is obviously not pleasing anyone. Let's talk a little bit about Corbyn and this new party that he established. Corbyn, of course, was kicked out of the Labor Party and interestingly seems to have lot of support. You can break down the numbers, you can put D3 up on the screen. This was Corbyn's op ed in the Guardian talking about why he was starting this party. The headline here is this, labor government has failed. People want real transformative politics. We will give it to them. And let me just, before we get to a little bit of you just had an interview with him as well. Before we get to that, just talk a little bit about the impetus for this party and are you surprised by the level of support for it in these early, early days?

[C]

Well, I think there's been quite a lot of pressure on Corbyn for quite a while amongst some of his allies to launch a party. In fact, he was kicked out the Labour party back in 2020 and there was a drawn out process where, you know, look, he joined the Labour Party two decades before I was born. I'm a geriatric millennial. He joined the Labour Party in 1965. He's been a Labour Member of Parliament since 1983. He's represented the same constituency all that time, the Labour Party. He's surrounded by people who he knows through the Labour Party. He's a big part of his life. You know, I think it was just he didn't for a long time. He just felt, you know, that was my party and I'm going to go through the process to get readmitted. But, you know, so some wanted him to go earlier. What actually happened is he stood as an independent candidate in the last general election and in that election you got four other anti genocide candidates got elected as independents. It's very difficult in our system to get elected as an independent. We've got first past the post here, like you guys do, a different form, but it's very difficult. There's been in competitive elections, eight politicians have been elected as independents since World War II, five of them in the last election. One that was him. The Green Party also won four seats, positioning themselves as a left wing, anti genocide party. But they also came second against behind Labour, 39 seats. I guess the sense was that now finally, I think he felt, well, actually, you know, there was a lot of demand coming out there. I guess Zach Polanski is running to be leader of the Green party and is likely to win on a kind of leftist, very similar platform. And I guess there was a sense, you know, the, the how that relationship will be interesting. But I guess there was a sense of there should be an avowedly socialist party that exists. And you know, this is going to bring together lots of the independents who got elected as politicians and the grassroots movements that exist outside which have been mobilized by the genocide, but also of course by, you know, we've had the worst grease in living standards since the Napoleonic age in this country. Our public services are falling apart like our national Health Service. And the Labour government had very little enthusiasm to begin with. They won two thirds of seats on one third of the vote with the lowest turnout in history of British democracy. And it's been downhill all the way since. So there was a sense of there has to be an alternative because if not Nigel Farage out, our Trumpian politician, he will just soak up all the disillusionment. He will win by default. He's on course to be prime minister at this rate, if you believe the polling, that would be a catastrophe, clearly. So there's a sense of there has to be something else that shifts people's anger disillusionment in the direction of taxing those who are doing very well and investing in services, public ownership, not arming genocide rather than let's kick out all the migrants and refugees.

[Krystal Ball]

See, that's why I find fascinating about the whole thing and why I so much more prefer your political system because the centers can fall out and new parties can happen. You mentioned. I'm sure we disagree, but at least for me, it's fascinating to watch reform basically replace the Conservative Party you mentioned there, Nigel Farage. And then similarly also the destruction of Labor. So the two central parties are both falling apart with the creation of actually new parties where a lot of voters are flocking to. Is that kind of how you see it? Like the destruction of the entire political establishment establishments?

[C]

Well, our system in lots of ways is supposed to be quite similar to yours, actually. I mean in that we've basically just had a two party system. Yeah. Since you know, the 1930s. So I mean, you're right. Is that what's happened to the Conservative Party? Because the Conservative party is the most successful political party on earth in this country. It's, it's, it's, it's been around since 1832 and it dominated the 20th century. So it's, you know, an election actual giant which has fallen apart and it's this phenomenon you're seeing across the Western world, which is the so called center right has basically gone into liquidation. It's either in the case of like the us, the so called Senate right party gets taken over by what I would regard as the far right, or new far right parties in Western European countries have just eclipsed the old center right parties who themselves then try and adopt their policies in a game of catch up. That's what's happened here. The Conservatives now, now are, you know, way, way different. You know, they've been, they, their politics are not that different from Nigel Farage anyway already, but they're being eclipsed. But what's interesting is things are so unpredictable because we've got first past. That human part is alive a lot of the time, but that's changing because of the disillusionment with them. That's already showed the cracks of reform because under our system you could end up like labor did. They got 33.7% of the vote and they got two thirds of the seats. But now if you have reform, you have a new left wing, see its relationship with the Greens. And then you've got the Conservatives and you've got the Liberal Democrats who are just a waste of time, but they still exist. You know, you get, and then you get the Scottish National Party in, in Scotland they dominate, they dominate politics for a long time. And you've also got the Welsh nationalist Plaid Cymru. So things are fragmenting here and that's what gives this sort of opening. Things are, you know, because it used to be labor or Conservative, like it was Democrats or Republicans, with the election making it very difficult for any other outcome. But that is definitely changing. But it means a very unpredictable outcome because you can win on a very low share of the vote. I don't think our electoral system will survive. I suspect we'll end up with proportional representation because it looks, it kind of looks silly at this point.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Interesting. You did have a sit down yesterday with Jeremy Corbyn and you asked him about Israel and Palestine and you know how important that is to the energy that is behind his new party. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of that.

[C]

With Israel's genocide, I mean, you know, I mean, I think to myself, I mean, I don't, I want to phrase this properly because I don't want to talk about the genocide, extermination of the Palestinian view. As always, some teachable lesson to the world. It's one of the abominations of our time. But, you know, it's changed me forever. It's changed other people further. Do you think it has fundamentally, fundamentally changed politics in a way that isn't actually properly understood yet? I mean, we look back, the financial crash, the Iraq war, these all had long term brought out the human. And a lot of people that didn't.

[Krystal Ball]

Come out before the previous genocides.

[C]

You think Cambodia, you think Rwanda, you.

[Krystal Ball]

Think Darfur, you think Second World War.

[C]

All those genocides were not on live television in the way that this one is. Yes, in the case of particularly Rwanda, they were, were. There was quite a lot of television coverage, but not to the extent we get now. We now get this live coverage. I don't know about you, I watch lots of different international channels, usually late.

[Krystal Ball]

At night, sort of Al Jazeera, France 24 and so on. Even I find it hard to look at it when you see a mother with a baby.

[C]

She's so emaciated and hungry and dehydrated.

[Krystal Ball]

She can't create enough milk in herself.

[C]

To feed her baby. And she's got this wailing, crying baby who's clearly near to death.

[Krystal Ball]

So you're watching livestream death and what it's very. Gaza is quite small, probably 10 km.

[C]

Away in the size of East London.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[C]

There's water, there's milk, there's food, there's everything that that baby needs. And it's been deliberately done by the state of Israel and by the idea in plain sight.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And so, Owen, I'm actually curious for your answer to your own question, because I become increasingly concerned, convinced that I don't think the politicians here get it yet, but Israel, Palestine is becoming the central dividing line, certainly within the Democratic Party, but I think more broadly within American politics because it's such a moral red line. Do you support or oppose genocide? And if you're on the wrong side of that, then I really have no use for you on anything else. And so I'm curious if there's a similar sense in the UK of this issue becoming increasingly central.

[C]

I think it's totemic. I think you're absolutely right. I don't think the consequences will be properly understood for a very long time, actually. I think it's like a massive rupture in terms of what came before. It has politicized large numbers of people who weren't particularly political before. I think people seeing, because of the work of Palestinian journalists who've been slaughtered and the biggest butchery journalists in humanity, in history and technology, that they can, as Jeremy Corbyn spoke about there can broadcast their own extermination to the world. The gap between what people can see and hear and read and what politicians are saying and what media out mainstream media outlets are saying is so incredibly vast that I think it's led people to think, if they're not telling me the truth about this or if they're reporting this like that what else is going on? So I think it's become totemic. I think it has. I mean, it really has. I speak to people, you know, I speak to a lot of people about this and they feel the same as, you know, I feel changed by it, completely transformed by it. I think lots of people feel transformed by it. I think there's that sense of. It's kind of that like legitimacy to rule that if there are just certain red lines, that if you are complicit in a genocide side, you have lost any legitimacy, you have lost moral legitimacy, you have lost political legitimacy. And nothing you can ever say or do again can scrub that away. And I think that has consequences because I think it leads people to, to have. When you've got that level of moral clarity, there's lots of things in life I look back and say, well, you know, you're not always entirely sure about something. When you're so sure about something so evil and extreme and depraved and shameless and unapologetic and confessing to, then I think it gives you this toughness that a lot of people have developed to think, to just think to themselves, we've got to sweep this establishment away. There's no going back. There's no going back to a. To a time. And I think that will have devastating political consequences. People in 30 years will look back and say this is the moment that changed them and made them. You know, people talk about the Iraq war like that. I talk to people at the fact, you know, and people talk about, about that. There's something so visceral about this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[C]

Go. Stop.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Interesting.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I agree with you.

[C]

I think it will change politics forever.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Thank you. Great to see you and we hope to have you back again soon.

[Krystal Ball]

Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

[C]

Awesome.

[Krystal Ball]

Cheers guys. The stuff you should know guys have made their own summer playlists of their muscles and podcasts on movies. It's me, Josh, and I'd like to welcome you to the stuff you should know. No summer movie playlist. What screams summer more than a nice darkened air conditioned theater and a great movie playing right in front of you? Episodes on James Bond, special effects, stunt men and women, disaster films Even movies that change filmmaking and many more. Listen to the stuff you should know. Summer movie Playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perl and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennessee Inn. But the most unforgettable part, our roommate, Reggie Payne from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper and his stage name, Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. Episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died.

[C]

I'm like thanking you, but then I.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

We didn't know what do to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So we have a few other important developments. With regard to Israel in particular, this was kind of an extraordinary moment. John Mearsheimer, professor, we've obviously had him on this show, very well known, sat down with Tucker Carlson and explained why in his view, what Israel was doing in Gaza is clearly a genocide. Let's take a listen to that.

[Krystal Ball]

And this is in large part because of Israel. And this is just a strategic dimension. We're not even talking about the moral dimension. I mean, the Israelis are executing a genocide in Gaza and we are complicit in that. Genocide. When you say it's a genocide, what, what do you mean? Well, if you look at what the definition of a genocide is, right? It's where one country tries to destroy either all or a substantial portion of another group, another ethnic or religious or national group, for the purposes of basically destroying that group identity. That's what you're talking about here. I think that that's the definition of genocide. It's laid out in the 1948 convention. They're trying to destroy Palestinian national identity in addition to murdering huge numbers of Palestinians. And I mean, it's not just a rage reflex. This is a strategy. Of course, two and a half years later, almost three years later, what is the strategy? What's the goal of this? My view on this is that the Israelis have long been interested in expelling the Palestinian population from Greater Israel. If you look at Greater Israel, this includes the Israel that was created in 1948 and the occupied plus the occupied territories. This is the West Bank. Post 67. Post 67, West bank and Gaza. So West Bank Bank, West Bank, Gaza and what we call Green Line Israel. That's Greater Israel. Inside Greater Israel, there are about 7.3 million Jews and about 7.3 million Palestinians. And from the get go, going back to the early days of Zionism and the views of people like David Ben Gurian, they believe that you needed a Jewish state that was about 80% Jewish and 20% Palestinian. In an ideal world, you would get rid of all the Palestinians, but the least bad alternative is 80, 20. But you actually have a situation in Greater Israel where you have 50, 50. So October 7th happens and what the Israelis see is an excellent opportunity for ethnic cleansing. And they make this clear, clear. In other words, it's an excellent opportunity to go to war in Gaza and drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and solve that demographic problem that they face. That's such a, a dark thing. And therefore that's a very strong allegation. On what basis are you making it? Oh, there's just a huge amount of data that supports this in the Israeli press that they have. They have been perfectly willing to make this argument loudly and clearly.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So Sagra, I'm curious your reflection on the import of that moment given how important Tucker is on the right.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well, I think it's obviously very, very important for the right just because you have Marjorie Taylor Greene, you have Tucker Carlson now. By the way, the email that was the title of the episode that went out to Tucker Carlson's subscribers was titled Genocide. And so I think it's important for discipline playing where there's all of this talk about support for Israel and how MAGA supports Trump no matter what. Fine. That's only 30% of the country. Disapproval for actually approval for Israeli military action today stands at a whopping 32%, which means you have 70% of the American public. So that means if you look at it objectively, that's the vast majority of Democrats and about half of Republican voters. Now self identified Republicans may have some 71%, but I'm talking about the independents, many of you who didn't vote for Donald Trump. So it's pretty obvious where this comes in terms of its mainstream view. But more importantly, I think it highlights where you have both the youth Republican vote the way that they're going. You have politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene and others really putting themselves out there for, I mean, you and I both know like the amount of pushback that they're gonna get on that episode, it's gonna be unbelievable. And it shows the dichotomy between the current administration and where at least a decent number of his supporters or people who did vote for him are now falling apart within the coalition.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, on the Democratic side, the number that supports what Israel's doing is 8%.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, exactly. 8%, yeah, but 90% of senators.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, exactly. We'll get to that. We'll talk about where the Senate Democrats are at the point. Cuz we have some numbers with regard to that. But you know, according to New York City voters, you had some, roughly 80% who said, yeah, it's a genocide. You had another 60 plus percent, I think 63, 64%, something like that, who were like, if Bibi Netanyahu comes to New York City, yes, he should be arrested because he's a war criminal. That's where the base of the Democratic Party is. Independents are largely in line with that. Republicans are more supportive of Israel. But yes, if you look at younger Republicans, there is a shift and just very quickly on, on the term genocide and why I think it's important to assert, to use this word and assert what it is, it's because it comes with a moral weight and responsibility. If you are a United States Senator and you admit Israel is committing a genocide, how can you justify sending any weapons? How can you justify, you know, you are in this position of power. How can you justify not doing all that you possibly can, given that this is our ally who we've been supporting and aiding and abetting in this genocide? How can you live with yourself if you aren't doing everything you can to stop the flow of arms and to cut off the support and to end the genocide. And that's why to me the word is important, because for people it carries a certain amount of history with it and a certain level of moral weight.

[Krystal Ball]

See, I actually disagree with. I'm sure I'm gonna get cooked for this one. I already know, but I agree, I agree with Bernie Sanders, who said it, quote, it's a legal term. And the reason why is. Look, I mean, I think my view is, I know it's gonna be unpopular with much of our left wing audience on this, but I mean, unpopular apparently.

[Sagar Enjeti]

With Tucker and John Mearsheimer, that's fine.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I disagree with John whenever we had him on here too, because I don't accept the precept of international law. There's no such thing as international law. There's no such thing as illegal invasions. Genocide itself was a term that was literally made up in the Post World War II era and enshrined in so called international law. Every time the term has been used, it's actually been used as a justification for the US Empire to go abroad in search of monsters, to destroy. Serbia was a genocide, Kosovo genocide.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the opposite though. This is a reason to pull back.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's consider the weight of that term because then we have Elie Wiesel's son on national television saying that Iranians want genocide and that's why we need to go in to bomb them. So they the natural result of the term.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Just because somebody uses the term incorrectly doesn't mean that we shouldn't also use the term. Correct. When it applies.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, but the reason why I reject again, the entire framework of all of these, like Post World War II, internationally law made up humanitarian ways, is because most of them are used for justifications. Actually, I can't think of a single instance in which it was not used to justify dramatic U.S. intervention. And also, also if it was, would it not then be a reason? Like would you sit here and say the US should bomb Israel?

[Sagar Enjeti]

You don't think that.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You don't think that the word should exist?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, no, I'm saying I don't think.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You don't think it. I mean, because it is, it has meaning, but it.

[Krystal Ball]

No.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And so the question is, does it meet the definition?

[Krystal Ball]

It's a made up word from the post World War II Nuremberg, which is why I don't use it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You just don't think it's a word that should exist?

[Krystal Ball]

No, I don't think it is.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You don't think it's a thing?

[Krystal Ball]

What's wrong with ethnic cleansing and mass murder. These are all like value neutral terms which have again a much longer standing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Of definition of society. People have accepted this as a word that has a certain definition. That's fine, use what you want and comes with certain moral weight and responsibility.

[Krystal Ball]

That's exactly what I adapted to.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But in this instance you have to acknowledge it meets the definition. It is important to have that moral weight and responsibility. And we are us being complicit in it means that we by any means, our support for that like that is an incredible moral and strategic imperative which is what Mearsheimer talks about.

[Krystal Ball]

But here's the problem and this is very intellectual. So I want everybody to stick with me. The use of the word genocide is a key part of the quote responsibility to protect doctrine which was invented under the post World War II and unipolar moment through which the precept is that this is why the United States never called the Rwandan genocide a genocide is because it would mean the United States armed forces should go abroad and to stop it. I don't believe that or accept that at all. I don't accept that mass murder is a reason for the US to deploy itself.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We gotta get to our gas. But I just wanna be clear about your position. No matter what happens, you wouldn't call it a genocide cuz you just don't believe in that term.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't believe in the term and especially the way that it is used.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Literally nuked and murdered all 2 million Palestinians. I mean, I'm just asking.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You did not reject the use of the term at all.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely. And this is why I think it's key because in its Post World War II invention it is used as a device to justify US armed intervention abroad. Whether it's ethnic cleansing or whether it's ethnic cleansing or genocide, mass murder, it's all bad. No, I mean, I don't know why. This is why. These leftist semantic games are ridiculous to me.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Like people attacking Tuckers out there playing leftist semantic games.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, is Bernie Sanders not immediately under attack right now for not saying the word genocide? That's so. I'm sorry. He is the leading person trying to stop offensive weapons to Israel and apparently that's not enough because he doesn't use the right language. This is just ridiculous.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's not true. Sagar, you can give him credit for what he's doing, as I'm about to do, and also say no, it does matter that use that language because it does have a certain meaning. But that meaning means what has a historical context. And I would say here, because our country and our tax dollars and our two bipartisan presidents have been actively involved in aiding embedding that justice. Yes, of course we have a responsibility to protect because we're the ones who did the thing in the first place.

[Krystal Ball]

No, but see, these are very important words and I think we should get clear about the definition here. It's like, do you think then that the US should use its armed military to stop Israeli action? Like not just ending support to the United States so we should bomb Israel?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, I don't think that at all. Both know that is not necessary. Well, I agree you can't do what they're doing without our support.

[Krystal Ball]

But it's a hypothetical and a moral. It's a moral construct, right?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes. In a hypothetical situation, if they don't, if we pull our support and we pull our diplomatic support and we sanction them and we do all the things and they're still genociding Palestinians, do I think that we should invade military and.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, yes, I completely disagree with that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't think we are the ones national strategy. We created this situation. Well, that's how many people have a responsibility for it.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, what about the Armenian genocide, right? I mean, back in 1915, like, should the United States have deployed its. No, absolutely not. And by the way, it's horrible, but we're talking about ethnic cleansing and mass murder.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You wouldn't always use the US Military. Doesn't mean that you throw it out in all circumstances. I mean, we created. We are aiding and abetting this genocide. Yes, we have a responsibility. Yes, the language matters because it has a historical context and he has a moral weight and it dictates it puts a responsibility. You saw, that's why Alyssa Slotkin wants to weasel out of this sort of language because she knows it confers on her a responsibility. And that's why I think it's important for accountability. But I do want to get to the vote because this is important. Bernie, to your point, to his credit, forced a vote on blocking. It was two separate votes on blocking some offensive weapons to Israel. We can put this up on the screen. You know, you can sort of look at this two different ways. Record high number of Democratic senators, majority of the caucus, 27 voted for one of those resolutions. You can see their names up here on the screen. You know, to have a majority of Democrats vote for this is a major sea change. You know, it's a major shift. The other resolution, which was specifically about 1000 pound bombs this one was, I believe, about assault rifles, did not have quite as high support. But you even had Jeanne Shaheen, who I believe is the ranking member on the Foreign Relations Committee. So very significant here. You'll recall we mentioned Alyssa Slotkin in our interview with her. You and I both asked her specifically about whether she would end her support for offensive or defensive aid to Israel. Very slippery in her answer. Let's take a listen. Will you cut off aid to Israel so long as they're committing crimes against humanity?

[Krystal Ball]

There is a difference between a weapon.

[Sagar Enjeti]

To protect a country from incoming missiles versus other type.

[Krystal Ball]

Offensive and defensive weapons are different. So would you support offensive weapons ban. Like, would you stop any offensive aid to Israel?

[Sagar Enjeti]

That certainly to me would be a place to look. But I'm not gonna cut off a blanket next saddle on a defensive weapon. So, Sagar, she says it would be a place. Place to look. Well, lo and behold, she wasn't there. She didn't vote on it. Didn't vote for the resolution to block offensive weapons, apparently. I can put this up on the screen. She was recording an episode of the Late show with Stephen Colbert. So she, I think, tried to express a lot of concern for what was going on in Gaza when she was here with us. But when it came down to using her power as a senator and a vote that was actually taken on the floor, she was not there to vote either way, actually.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, yeah. Okay. So there you go. All right. Got a little bit of our answer. I do think that is indeed interesting. We also had this interesting moment from the Israeli ambassador to the UN On Piers Morgan. Let's take a listen. You say that one child the New York Times put on the front page wasn't starving. He clearly was starving.

[C]

He just had other, other medical issues.

[Krystal Ball]

Going on as well. There are many, many images coming out of Gaza of starving children. We're not making this up. And if you really.

[C]

If you really believe it's not happening.

[Krystal Ball]

And all of this is a blood libel, then again, and I've had this.

[C]

Conversation with you before, you should be.

[Krystal Ball]

Pressurizing your prime minister to allow international media to go into Gaza to verify exactly what is happening.

[C]

You don't want journalists to go in.

[Krystal Ball]

There because what they're going to uncover.

[C]

And report to the world is utterly horrifying.

[Krystal Ball]

You have destroyed two thirds, if not more now of the Gaza Strip. Tell me the lie you spoke about the New York Times picture. Let's speak about that for a minute. That was blood libel. When you put a picture of a sick Palestinian Boy who has a disease and you claim that he was starving. That was a lie. I said the other children were starving.

[C]

I said other children were starving.

[Krystal Ball]

No, you said that this boy was also starving. You want to rewind it Two minutes ago.

[C]

The boy is clearly.

[Krystal Ball]

The boy was clearly emaciated, Ambassador.

[C]

Clearly emaciated.

[Krystal Ball]

So yes, he has a medical condition.

[C]

But also he's clearly not eating right.

[Krystal Ball]

No. Why deny what we see with our own eyes? So all of this is about a New York Times controversy. Let's put E5 please, up on the screen. So this will was a photo that was on the front page of the New York Times and was kind of the centerpiece of a story that said Gazans are dying of starvation. Now, very quickly, Israeli officials and others were infuriated because their justification for the emaciation of this young child is that he suffers from other medical conditions, which led the New York Times to publish a. Not a correction per se, it's more of an editor's note. Let's put that one up there on the screen. It says children, women in Gaza are malnourished and starving. We recently ran a story about Gaza's most vulnerable civilians, including Mohammad Zakaria Al Mutaka, who is roughly 18 months old and suffers from severe malnutrition. We have since learned new information, including from the hospital that treated him and updated our story. This is additional detail, gives our readers a greater understanding of the situation. Our reporters and photographers continue to report from Gaza. So basically the justification for much of the Israeli media and the government is that the New York Times published a blood libel because they did not mention the pre existing condition of this child. I believe it's muscular dystrophy. However, it's pretty obvious not just from the photo but from the reporting as well as from the hospital notes and the doctors as well that is suffering from malnutrition. It also is one of those things where it's like, okay, so let's pick 15 other photos. This one particular photo that was supposedly is the only image that they could find is preposterous. Unfortunately you can actually go and find it literally anywhere, both on the Internet. Dropsite has multiple. I mean, these are horrible. Like I don't even want to put them up here, but if you want to, like we can. And it's one of those where it shows kind of the sickness of the way that the propaganda machine is currently working is, you know, debunking, debunking this photo as a justification for why, why it's not happening. Actually at all.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, not to mention how sick is it to argue that because this child has another pre existing health condition, their starvation doesn't matter? Well, we've talked about that before as well.

[Krystal Ball]

Is they're also the most vulnerable to that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's utterly grotesque. And his mother was actually interviewed by another publication. We can put this up on the screen about his preexisting condition, his other medical problems and first of all, here's a picture of him as a younger infant. And you can see, you know, he is not emaciated. He has chubby baby cheeks and looks like a normal healthy little baby. And they say that what she told this outlet is my son Mohammed was born in December 2023 during the war without any chronic illnesses. Doctors diagnosed him with macrocephaly, which they said was caused by nutritional deficiencies during pregnancy due to the Israeli war. So according to his mom, even the medical conditions that he does suffer are because of him being born into this war and this horror being imposed by the Israelis. But it is disgusting beyond words to first of all dismiss all of the starvation that you see because this one child has another medical condition and to dismiss this child as not really malnourished or not really counting because he has a medical condition. Yes. The reality is food and medicine and water and fuel are all being denied from the Gaza Strip and have been for months now. So you know, those who have chronic conditions are also not going to be able to receive the medical treatment that they need separate and apart from sufficient nutrition in order to survive. So in any case, we're going to move on now to our guest, former Green Beret who was a contractor with the so called Gaza Humanitarian foundation, who has been speaking out about the horror, starvation, death and destruction that he witnessed inside of Gaza. Let's get to it.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

[Krystal Ball]

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and left a woman behind to drown Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Listen to United States of Kennedy on.

[Krystal Ball]

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You get your podcast.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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