8/12/25: Cuomo Crashes Out, "Shrinkflation" of prices at stores, Pete Buttigieg's pathetic answers on Israel

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Released August 12, 2025

Title: Cuomo Crashes Out, "Shrinkflation" of Prices at Stores, Pete Buttigieg's Pathetic Answers on Israel

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Introduction

In this episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti tackle a variety of pressing issues impacting the American socio-political and economic landscape. From questionable economic data management under the Trump administration to the subtle yet impactful phenomenon of "shrinkflation," and a critical examination of Democratic leadership's stance on Israel, the discussion is both comprehensive and incisive. This summary delves into the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions presented during the episode.

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1. Trump's Nomination of E.J. Anthony as Bureau of Labor Statistics Head

Discussion Highlights: Saagar Enjeti opens the conversation by addressing President Donald Trump's recent nomination of E.J. Anthony as the new head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). Saagar and Krystal express significant concerns regarding Anthony's qualifications and the potential implications for economic data integrity.

Notable Quotes:

• Saagar (@04:13): "Justin Wolfer has tweeted... 'He finished grad school five years ago at Northern Illinois. No obvious distinction. His dissertation... has only earned him one citation.'"
• Krystal (@09:35): "There's been no indication that he has any interest in actually making people feel good about the economy... his major accomplishment... was stripping healthcare away from millions."

Insights: The hosts argue that Anthony's appointment undermines the credibility of economic data, essential for businesses and policymakers alike. Wall Street's trust in BLS statistics is jeopardized, leading to uncertainties in interpreting key economic indicators like unemployment rates and inflation figures.

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2. Impact of Tariffs and Economic Trust Under Trump

Discussion Highlights: Saagar and Krystal delve into the extension of tariffs on China by the Trump administration, highlighting the uncertainty it introduces into international trade relations and domestic economic metrics.

Notable Quotes:

• Saagar (@07:00): "Now they do. And Wall street was hoping that... somebody with credibility would be brought into this position."
• Krystal (@09:16): "As we also head into now, the impacts of whatever is going on with the tariffs at any given moment... you are starting to see the impact of these tariff rates that have come into place."

Insights: The extension of tariffs is portrayed as a misstep that harms both inflation rates and business investments. The hosts suggest that Wall Street's hopes for stable economic data are fading as the reliability of official statistics comes into question.

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3. "Shrinkflation": Consumers Face Decreasing Product Sizes

Discussion Highlights: A significant portion of the episode focuses on "shrinkflation," where companies reduce the size of their products while maintaining or increasing prices. This covert price hike affects everyday consumers, leading to decreased value for money.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal (@19:17): "Bacon is no longer in the 1-pound containers, but they're selling most brands for 12 ounces... Mantles."
• Saagar (@20:30): "Example... consumer is noticing... Trump putting his cronies to rig the stats, it's not going to work for him."

Insights: Krystal provides examples like bacon reducing from one pound to twelve ounces and tea bags decreasing in size, highlighting how manufacturers mask price increases through product downsizing. Saagar emphasizes that consumers are increasingly aware and frustrated by these tactics, undermining trust in both businesses and government economic reporting.

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4. Andrew Cuomo's Political Maneuvers and Rent Control in NYC

Discussion Highlights: The hosts shift focus to New York City's political scene, discussing Andrew Cuomo's involvement in the mayoral race and his controversial stance on rent control, particularly the proposed "Zoran's Law."

Notable Quotes:

• Saagar (@25:53): "Cuomo is melting down on Twitter... new consultant team crafting a troll persona."
• Krystal (@31:23): "What Andrew Cuomo is proposing... reflects the fact that I live rent free in his head."

Insights: Cuomo's proposal aims to restrict rent-stabilized apartments to individuals earning below a certain income threshold, effectively targeting wealthier tenants like Zoran Mamdani. This move is criticized as a political strategy to appeal to voters by addressing housing affordability, while simultaneously alienating moderate and affluent constituents.

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5. Democratic Leadership's Stance on Israel and Pete Buttigieg's Responses

Discussion Highlights: A substantial segment of the episode critiques Democratic leaders, particularly focusing on Pete Buttigieg's ambiguous responses regarding U.S. policy towards Israel amidst the ongoing conflict.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal (@41:48): "Your life is going good... What do you do when a child is starving... It's morally grotesque."
• Saagar (@40:42): "Pete wants to... signal his empathy without taking a stand that would alienate his donor base."

Insights: Krystal and Saagar argue that Democratic leaders, including Buttigieg, are failing to provide clear and morally grounded stances on the Israel-Palestine conflict. The hosts suggest that this ambiguity is politically motivated, aiming to appease both pro-Israel donors and the progressive base, resulting in ineffective and insincere policy positions.

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6. Gender Dynamics and Attacks on Women's Sports

Discussion Highlights: The episode culminates with a discussion on the rising hostility towards women's sports, exacerbated by political figures and harmful cultural movements. The hosts highlight incidents like the WNBA event where a crypto company threw dildos onto the court, symbolizing deeper issues of misogyny and degradation.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal (@62:23): "The WNBA is overwhelmingly black women and LGBTQ... targeting them for derision."
• Saagar (@68:28): "Correlation between the decline in gender equality support and economic stress among men... leading to scapegoating of women."

Insights: Krystal elaborates on how attacks on women's sports are part of a broader cultural backlash against gender equality. Saagar connects this trend to economic insecurities among men, leading to scapegoating and regression in gender roles. The hosts express concern over declining support for gender equality among young boys, attributing it to societal stresses and cultural shifts that undermine fundamental gender equality principles.

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Conclusion

In this episode of Breaking Points, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti provide a thorough analysis of critical issues affecting America's political and economic fabric. From undermining economic data integrity and deceptive pricing strategies to questioning Democratic leadership's foreign policy positions and highlighting regressive gender dynamics, the hosts offer a compelling critique of current trends. Their insightful discussions underscore the challenges facing both consumers and the broader societal landscape, urging listeners to remain vigilant and informed.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• Saagar (@04:13): Criticizes E.J. Anthony's qualifications for leading BLS.
• Krystal (@09:35): Highlights Trump's questionable economic policies.
• Krystal (@19:17): Illustrates examples of shrinkflation affecting consumers.
• Krystal (@41:48): Condemns the moral stance on Israel-Palestine.
• Krystal (@62:23): Discusses the targeting of marginalized groups in sports.
• Saagar (@68:28): Links economic stress to declining gender equality support.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear and comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ice Cube]

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[Ryan]

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[Crystal]

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[Guest]

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[Sagar]

Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here.

[Guest]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Ryan]

This is the only place where you.

[Sagar]

Can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Guest]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Ryan]

We need your help to build the.

[Sagar]

Future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail].

[Guest]

Let'S go ahead and move to There's a lot of significant economic news including let's put this, this first element up on the screen. Trump has now nominated a new head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, one of many Reasons why I hate Donald Trump is now I have to worry about who is the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. So his name is E.J. anthony, Chief Economist at Heritage foundation, apparently a longtime critic of the agency's approach to collecting data. And, you know, I think he's basically exactly who you think he is. Justin Wolfer has tweeted. You know, in terms of his qualifications, he finished grad school five years ago at Northern Illinois. No obvious distinction. His dissertation is MA Involved no research on labor markets or data collection. He's never published a paper. His life work has earned him one citation. This record would be insufficient to earn a job as a junior staffer at bls. And so basically, he's put in there because he is a Trump supporter and he is an ideologue. I mean, he's the kind of guy, Ryan, that's been interviewed on Steve Bannon's War Room podcast. This is who we're, we're talking about here. And, you know, it definitely raises questions about you're. One of the things that is truly different about the Trump administration, especially Trump 2.0, is even if the government has never been perfect at maintaining in these bureaucracies a sort of like political neutrality, there was an, an assumption that that should be the aspiration that the head of the bls, for example, should just be really trying to compile the data and in the best possible way and putting it out in the most neutral way possible. And that assumption has just been completely blown up. And this guy is the latest example of that.

[Sagar]

Yeah, I think there was some hope among Wall street bigwigs that the pushback that they gave to the firing of the BLS chair would be enough to get Trump to put in another bureaucrat type of person, like an academic who is just widely respected across the spectrum and is going to call economic balls and strikes, because that is really important to Wall street considers that Wall street wants to continue to be the place where if you are a multinational corporation or you're a billionaire, you're an oligarch, that you trust that your money's not going to be stolen, that it's not a corrupt stock market. One of the biggest things holding China back, for instance, is this belief among the international business community that they're not quite sure if the regulators are up to the task and if they're going to be fair when it comes to the stock market. Whether the stock prices are reflect reality, whether the numbers that are in the disclosures are made up or whether they connect to something on the ground. And whether or not in particular, say the jobless numbers and the growth and the economic growth numbers in China are accurate, you can agree or disagree with that critique, but it's an open critique and it hampers China's ability to attract international investment and to grow on the world stage. They're doing quite well in spite of that. But it's a hiccup. The US previously did not have that problem. Now they do. And Wall street was hoping that, yeah, there would be somebody with credibility that would be brought into this position. This is a worst case scenario for Wall street because this is a pure ideologue who you, you simply cannot tell yourself with any honesty that you think that this guy's gonna give you the straight numbers. Whether they are good or bad for Trump, there's just nobody, nobody's going to believe that. So therefore, what do the numbers mean? Now you have to get into this guess this Kremlinology, okay? The BLS says that the unemployment rate ticked down to 3.9% this month. Well, now we have to factor in 0.4% cushion. And then you might have, Goldman might say that they think he's lying by 0.4%. JP Morgan's going to say they think he's lying by 0.6% because they still want to try to figure out what the actual numbers are. And they're going to use his input as kind of one data point, but they're going to then color it with their skepticism that he's lying. And you know, that that is, that's a drag on the American economy.

[Guest]

Yeah. Well, maybe what it will mean is that people actually have to pay attention to how ordinary Americans feel about the economy. And I'm not sure that that will, you know, be a boon politically for the Trump administration because they feel incredibly squeezed and incredibly stressed. And if you look at, you know, levels of consumer debt, all time high, housing prices still wildly unaffordable, you know, the sense that you can achieve middle class stability, obviously that's been, you know, utterly decimated. Continues to be. So as we also head into now, the impacts of whatever is going on with the tariffs at any given moment. And let's put C1B up here on the screen. So there are ongoing negotiations with China, that tariff deadline. Like what was supposed to happen was they were, the tariffs were supposed to snap back into place, like the really at the 100 and whatever percent tariffs, which is just ridiculous. We're supposed to snap back in place. Trump has now extended that China tariff deadline by 90 days. So there are lower rates of tariffs, but still significant. I mean, we're still talking about sometimes, Ryan, it seems like because we didn't do the 145% tariff or whatever it was supposed to be, that, oh, this is all no big deal. But in fact, you are starting to see in the economic numbers, both in terms of inflation, in terms of unemployment, in of terms, in terms of business investment pullback. You are starting to see the impact of these tariff rates that have come into place.

[Sagar]

And consumer. The CPI number for July is out today and it has it rising at 2.7%, which is a little bit under. It was expected to rise to 2.8% by economists. That has a lot to do with whether or not the Federal Reserve is going to, you know, is going to move interest rates. But they also take into account BLS data. And so when Trump now in the future tells you that, look at all of these great numbers, all Democrats have to do is say, you're making those numbers up. How do you feel about the economy? He's lying to you. How do you feel? It is a tremendous gift to Democrats, whether they can make something of it. I don't know. Do you think Democrats understand what a gift this is to them?

[Guest]

No, probably not.

[Sagar]

Cause, yeah, that's all they have to.

[Guest]

Say is like they're too busy fighting anti Semitism.

[Sagar]

Like, how do you feel about the economy? And how you feel about the economy. Go with that. Because Trump is lying to you. He put in his stooges to lie to you about the numbers. So just. And then, and then, so for Trump, he has to then make people feel good about the economy. And, you know, good luck with that.

[Guest]

Yeah. There's been no indication that he has any interest in actually making people feel good about the economy, judging by his major accomplishment at this point, which was the one big beautiful bill, quote, unquote, quote, which is stripping health care away from millions in order to fund a tax get for the rich, among other things. But that's kind of the, the big picture of what's going on there. I was always also curious, Ryan, to get your take on, we could put C2 up on the screen. So we've got a piece here from the Wall Street Journal about how the US Is marching towards state capitalism with American characteristics. President Trump is imitating the Chinese Communist Party by extending political control ever deeper into the economy. And specifically, you know what the jumping off point for this opinion piece is? Is Trump's demand that Intel's chief executive resign the 15% of certain chip sales to China that Nvidia and Advanced Micro Devices will share with Washington. And he says the, quote, golden share Washington will get in US Steel as a condition of Nippon Steel's takeover. So, you know, it is a very extraordinary, I mean, this is part in a way of a shift back towards industrial policy that we saw under the Trump's first administration, continued under Biden's administration, and now a flavor of it in Trump's second administration. What I would say is, you know, the reason that the Chinese economy has been truly a marvel. I mean, it really is an extraordinary, the number of millions of people they've been able to lift out of poverty. And also, you know, the way that, that they've been incredibly strategic about investments in certain industries. The way they've intentionally gone about, you know, dealing with their own housing bubble, the way they've intentionally gone about, like making it so that not all the smart kids are just going into sort of like, you know, financial speculation is that there has been strategic, intelligent, long term thinking that is not just about serving the needs, interests, political whims and greedy of one individual. Trump's version of it, I would say looks quite a lot different from what is going on in China right now.

[Sagar]

Yeah, I think that's right. And if Trump wants to start doing industrial policy and actually kind of directing the commanding heights of the economy, I think the left agrees with doing that in principle and saying, yeah, sure, allow the public a lot more involvement in the economy so that it's not just left to scam artists on Wall street and Silicon Valley to just siphon money out of people's pockets. But yeah, it doesn't seem like he's doing it in the public interest. It's kind of funny here. Nobody cares about the Constitution, but there is the export clause. I was just looking it up. Article 1, Section 9, Clause 5. No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state, unquote. Now you can tax income from exports and maybe he's calling this voluntary, but on its face it seems like just blatantly unconstitutional. But, you know, whatever. It's not like the, it's not a top 10 crime against the Constitution from this administration.

[Guest]

So, yeah, no, it barely ranks probably in the top 50 at this point. So. So yeah, it's, it is wild though, that. I know, but, you know, and I feel like sometimes I'm so irritated with these people turning me into like a Tea Party era conservative with my pocket Constitution, you know, but some of these things are actually important, you know, some parts of the Constitution. I do actually support and think make, you know, like freedom of speech, for example, I think a part of what do make this country unique and remarkable place. But what are you going to do? I guess we're just throwing it all out.

[Sagar]

Yeah. I'm not going to the barricades for the export clause.

[Guest]

Yeah. And I might be more, you know, more excited about some of this constitutional trampling if I did have any faith that the Democrats would pick it up and be like, okay, well we are gonna do like you know, capitalism with Chinese care or whatever they called, you know, state capitalism with American characteristics. And we're gonna do it and like really pursue an industrial policy and we are gonna go in and you know, change these agencies in a way that actually delivers for people and but I just, I don't have a lot of confidence that they are going to actually seize the powers that have been laid out by this president. But I gu will potentially find out in the future.

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[Ryan]

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[Guest]

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[Ryan]

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[Sagar]

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[Guest]

Speaking of Ryan, the you know, the what we're left with. If you can't trust any of the economic statistics coming from this government and certainly from the bls, what you are left with is, you know, how people say they themselves are doing. But Bill Maher hosted George Will to say, you know, we really shouldn't trust that either. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Sagar]

I keep reading things like half the country cannot survive like a $400 disaster in their life. Like they don't have $400 in the bank if something, if the car breaks or something. And the other half are buying Taylor Swift and Beyonce tickets for $1,800. Okay, and I pay every year more than half. The government takes more than half. Where does it go if it's not helping in fixing the people who are one paycheck away from disaster? Where is this money going? First of all, that's probably a made up statistic because it serves a political.

[Guest]

Agenda to say that about people.

[Sagar]

Remember Bill, this is a country people are literally dying to get into so they can go to work.

[Guest]

Just like the heights of being out of touch. I often have the opposite thought which is like given how low wages are and how expensive everything is, especially you know, housing, education, health care, it's it is mind boggling to me that as many people get by and make it work as they do. So to say, oh, I don't believe this thing about how many Americans are living paycheck to paycheck is just so utterly absurd to me.

[Sagar]

Ryan yeah, there's this whole cottage industry of actually dudes who you really hate this statistic and we'll try to present you all sorts of economic data to tell people that actually you're fine and you're not paycheck to paycheck and people feel like they are. And I don't understand how kind of browbeating them otherwise is going to change that. And George Will's final argument there is also absurdity saying this is a great country because people are beating down the bushes to get in. All that tells you is that it's much worse elsewhere, which is fair. Like that is true. In a lot of other countries things are worse. That doesn't mean things are great for 50 plus percent of the country here. And in fact if we want to put up this next one, people are recognizing how this is going on around them. There have been a couple good tiktoks that have gone viral pointing out the way that inflation creeps in by just shrinking the amount you get.

[Host]

Let's roll C4 have you noticed bacon is no longer in the 1 pound containers, but they're selling most brands for 12 ounces. They've shrunk by 4 ounces from 18 fluid ounces down to 15 fluid ounces. But bigger size, better value. Kleenex is 160 sheets in a box to 14420 fluid ounces difference between these two. This one is 48 ounces, this one is 28 ounces. That is wild. There's always some sticker saying new size like it's an exciting thing. This one is 250 grams down from 300 grams. This person said they went to the grocery store, remember they're running low on one of their favorite decaf teas. They had changed the box but didn't really think that much of it until they opened it up. The new boxes not only have fewer tea bags. Used to have 15, now there's 12. But these are also smaller so there's 1.8 grams per tea bag versus 3.2 grams. They drank one hoping it would be good, but it's very weak and not worth buying anymore. Apparently this container of Pringles was 200 grams compared to this one at 165 grams. In addition to the problem of them always having like this top half completely empty.

[Sagar]

So Americans getting served literal weak tea C5 is a good one too. Let's roll C5.

[Host]

They've been removing all the perforated price tags from the clothing and jacking the prices up, trying to keep the consumers from realizing how far they went with the prices. And I was like, surely they're not doing that now. See all these price tags? See how all the perforated ones are gone? And this says these are 12.98. You see that? You see that? But look, they missed one. Where'd it go? Right there. Look at that. They increase this. I'll show you. This is the same exact shirt on the same exact rack that now says $12.98. They increased it $5.

[Sagar]

Yeah, and I saw one going around recently too, where somebody, you know, because, you know, a lot of people have electronic records of, you know, their Walmart purchases from, you know, five, six years ago. You can go back and actually find them even using the app. And so she went back and took just a random day's purchase from like 20, 20, 2019. And it came up to like, I forget, $111 or something like that. And then just went into the website and bought all of those products again and it was almost double.

[Guest]

Wow.

[Sagar]

Like, what it. For the exact same products. And it was just a random day. It's like, people, it's real. The prices are not coming down. And so this, like, okay, this month it's up 2.7% annually. So that's less than it was expected to go up and that's less than it was up before. It's still up. And so people are noticing. And Trump putting in his cronies to rig the stats. It's not going to work for him.

[Guest]

Yeah, no, I don't think that is going to persuade this lady who's at Walmart. Like, no, people know, actually, things are going. Things are going great for me. The dear leader says that the numbers are perfect. So my life is going good. I mean, I just think about it in this way, like soccer. And I actually covered the way that wage growth has been particularly stagnant in recent months and years for the lowest wage workers. And so when you think of that, obviously they're, you know, in many instances, not keeping pace with inflation. So you have that, then you have the cost of food, the cost of housing, the cost of health care, the cost of education. Like, we know these things. So I don't know why it would be at all surprising to people that there are tens of millions of Americans who are one emergency away from complete and utter disaster, because that is also just the basic mechanics of how our economy has been set up to operate like that's not an accident. You know, that's the purpose of all of the union busting, for example, that's been going on for decades because business owners, like big corporations want you to be desperate so that you, you know, have no other choice than to work for poor wages and poor conditions. And oh, by the way, now we also can throw into the mix the threat of, you know, AI replacing you, not just some other desperate worker out there.

[Sagar]

I think it's a good segue to Cuomo because the question of whether or not Democrats are going to be able to capitalize on this comes down to whether or not Democratic Party leaders really understand how the economy works and how the government can be used with people to make it better for those people. And Cuomo is considered to be one of the great talents of the Democratic Party. Yeah, they acknowledged he got a little handsy and had to be pushed out amid the moral panic of MeToo. But. But he's otherwise a political genius and really has his finger on the pulse and he's got his fingers on other things too. But so he's the guy, he's one of the guys that is supposed to be able to channel this kind of populist energy and he phoned it in in the primary and so that can be forgiven. But in the general, he's really going to bring the heat and he's going to show that the Democratic Party establishment has not lost it, they've still got it, they can still bring it. And that's why I think it's important to cover this back and forth that he's been having with Zoran Mamdani about rent control. Put up D1. It started with Cuomo realizing or remembering from the debate or something that Mamdani had said that he lives in a one bedroom efficiency in Queens that he pays $2,300 a month for and that it's rent stabilized. And so he then adds together Mamdani's assembly salary plus his wife's salary, I think like a non profit, and suggests that they're making at least $200,000. So he calls him, quote, a rich person. And then he says, you are actually very rich, which, you know, a lot of Cuomo's donors probably made 200,000 plus and do not consider themselves rich in New York. So then he says, you know, basically he needs to move out of this, needs to move out of his apartment. Let's play D2 here.

[Ice Cube]

Rent stabilized units, when they're vacant should only be rented to people who need affordable housing, not people like Zoran Mandami. You don't need to be renting rent stabilized units to wealthy people. Otherwise what you're doing is you're abusing the system. I'm going to propose not rent that apartment by law, except to a person who actually needs affordable housing. And I'm going to call it Zoran's Law because it's an abuse of the system.

[Sagar]

So he wants to make this race about rent control and rent. And so he comes out with this Zoran's law. So let's put up D3 here. Under Cuomo's proposal, when a rent stabilized apartment becomes vacant, the incoming individual income would be capped so that the annual rent makes up at least 30% of that income. For example, if an apartment rents for $2,500 a month, the new tenant's income could not exceed $100,000. And so we can get to Mamdani's great response in a moment. But Crystal, I used to live in New York and actually lived in a rent stabilized apartment. And one of things you learn there is that the landlords want nothing more than to get you out of the rent stabilized apartment. Because when, when they get you out, they can then bump the rental price to the market condition in a lot. In some cases it stays rent stabilized, but you, but you have a new floor now. It's the new market rate. And then it can only move by the slight percentage or zero if Mamdani gets his rent freeze through. In other cases it's taken out of rent stabilization and becomes a pure market rate apartment. So in either case the landlord wins. So they're constantly, desperately trying to get people out of these apartments. And the renters are constantly playing a cat and mouse game of trying to stay in the apartments. Here comes Cuomo squarely on the side of the landlords saying that once he's going to kick out people who don't meet these income requirements and once it becomes vacant, there's going to be these onerous restrictions that you have to make, you know, very, you know, you have to in New York, 100 grand. Otherwise you know, you're not eligible for this apartment. What did you make of this? And we do want to get to Mamdani's clapback. What did you make of Cuomo's brilliant gambit here?

[Guest]

Well, the irony is, as I read it, Zoran's law quote unquote wouldn't even apply to Zoron because when Zoron was able to obtain this apartment, he was only making $44,000 a year. So he would have qual. Um, and the law does not actually say, now we're going to kick out people who exceed this threshold. Because that would be politically insane. Like the number of, you know, because, I mean, just think about what that would mean for your average person. Oh, you do a little bit better. You get a raise at your job and now you're getting kicked out of your apartment. That's, that's horrible. That's absolutely horrible. And now you're out there in market rate, you know, New York City, and it's just, you've taken a step forward in your career and like 10 backwards in terms of your living standards. Like, that would be absolutely insane. So somebody realize, okay, well we can't actually do that. That would be really bad. And politically it would be completely toxic. So instead he wants to implement these new income standards that would essentially mandate that everyone who ends up in a rent stabilized apartment is like rent burdened, like officially rent burdened. So it's, it's ridiculous. It's utterly ridiculous all the way around. And you know, also highlights an issue which is rent affordability and housing affordability. That is one of Zoran's strongest possible issues. So there's that. I mean, there's also just like outside of this Zoran's law fiasco situation, Cuomo is like melting down on Twitter. I don't know, there's all sorts of weird posting. There's speculation about they may be using bots to like automatically reply to people. He's clearly brought on a new consultant team that has, is trying to craft this new Twitter troll Persona for Andrew Cuomo. And actually I just saw a new poll in the, in, in the mayoral race and Zoron continues to win to lead by a health healthy margin here. This is from Sienna Zoron. This is with the, the five way race. Zoran at 44, Cuomo at 25, Sliwa at 12, Adams at 7. So you can see, you know, increasingly desperate tactics as we get closer and closer to election day and the polls don't really seem to be moving in Cuomo's favor and no one else seems to be dropping out. And even if they do, I mean, what the polls again reflect at this point is even if it was head to head, Zoron versus Cuomo, Zoron still wins in that scenario. So I guess that's why Cuomo is resorting to also desperate tactics like reportedly calling Trump and begging for him to come in and offer some sort of assistance, which I don't think is going to go over too well in the heavily Democratic city of New York City.

[Sagar]

No. And as those polls consistently show, his disapproval numbers are so high, he's got a. So even if he could get this mystical, fantastical, one on one race with Mamdani in the general, get everybody else out, people don't like him. Like, a decent number of people don't like him. Too many people don't like him. And you've already.

[Guest]

And a lot of people do like Zoron.

[Sagar]

Right. And he's at 44 already in a five way race. So here's Mamdani responding to Cuomo's rent proposal.

[G]

What Andrew Cuomo is proposing, be it.

[Sagar]

The rent control he cited, the rent.

[G]

Stabilization he intends to speak about, is in many ways reflective of the fact.

[Sagar]

That I live rent free. In his head, there are important conversations to be had about housing, but this is not what he's seeking to lead.

[G]

He's not looking to reflect on the fact that he eliminated more affordable housing than he created.

[Sagar]

He's not looking to reckon with his.

[G]

Cutting of a voucher program that was.

[Sagar]

Then followed by a significant increase in homelessness in New York City. He's not looking to reckon with any of that.

[G]

He's just looking to answer the question.

[Sagar]

Of how he lost.

[Guest]

I live rent free in his head. That's perfect. You should have come up with that, Ryan. That was there for the taking.

[Sagar]

It was right there. It was right there. Zoran's Law, Rent free in your head. But he. Yeah, so he got him.

[Guest]

I mean, I've been thinking about, you know, in Buffalo, this, this tactic worked against India Walton, where she won the Democratic primary, and then the guy that she had defeated, who was the mayoral incumbent, he comes in and runs third party in the general election, and it actually works. And I think it is a testament to a very different political climate now, for one, and a sort of more radicalized Democratic base. And I think it also is a testament to just Zoron's appeal. You know, in that poll I was just referencing, he's head and shoulders above any other candidate with independent voters, too. So it's not just that Democrats are like, yeah, we like this guy, and we don't really care what Hakeem Jeffries or Chuck Schumer has to say about it. We're gonna vote for the Democratic nominee. You also have independent voters who are like, yeah, okay, rent affordability and focusing on New York City instead of say, for example, Israel, that seems like a pretty good, like, let's let's try that, that. Let's see how that works out for us. And then you also have the historic unpopularity of Eric Adams, the sort of run of the mill Democratic establishment unpopularity of Andrew Cuomo. And you've got the likely result that we're gonna see here regardless of whether Trump tries to pull some funny business or not.

[Sagar]

And I wonder how you feel if you're Chuck Schumer and who is the leader of the Senate, not just a New York senator, he's a leader of the Senate. And Hakeem Jeffries, who's not just a Brooklyn member of Congress but the House Democratic leader. Both of these guys standing in Mamdani's way and he's just barreling them over, they have still refused to endorse him. How do you think that, how do you think they are reflecting on what their position is with party voters at this point?

[Guest]

I don't know. I don't see evidence that there's that kind of reflection that occurs like a new poll.

[Sagar]

There's a new poll out that I saw this morning. It was asking about support for Israel's war effort. The number among Democrats was 8%. There's not much that gets you down to 8%. And the gap between that and Democratic leadership has to be the widest of any issue.

[Ice Cube]

The reviews and ratings are in and Ice Cube's Big Three is the surprise hit of the summer. This Saturday, 4pm Eastern on CBS, with playoff elimination on the line, the stars will be flocking to Los Angeles to witness the most physical, fiercest and competitive basketball in the world. Miami's Michael Beasley and Lance Stevenson must win over Houston to make the playoffs, reeling from last week's savage beating at the hands of Chicago's possessed Montrez Harrow. Last time these teams met, Miami beat Houston, but they are a dangerous team having their manhood at stake. Then breakout star Dwight Howard of the LA Riot will battle Gary Payton's Boston squad in a do or die match for both teams. Will LA avenge their previous shocking loss to perennial basketball Boston rivals? To survive, six teams are allowed for four seconds spots and all must win. Don't miss the Big Three, the three on three basketball league everyone is talking about. There's no crying in the Big Three and the no hold sport action starts Saturday at 4pm Eastern, 1pm Pacific followed by two games on Vice starting at 6:30 Eastern. Presented by iHeart.

[Crystal]

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[Sagar]

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[Sagar]

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[Guest]

Crazy to me, Ryan, and I genuinely don't understand it. And actually we could transition and talk about the Peach Pod Save interview because I think this fits with this conversation and his response on some basic questions about where you stand on Israel and Palestine at this point. If you're John Fetterman or you're Richie Torres and you're just like, I'm the APAC guy and I'm all about that life and I'm going to Cape for Israel no matter what and I'm going to make sure that money's coming in on my side. Okay? I think it's disgusting. I think it's morally atrocious. I hope history judges you quite harshly for that. But I can at least understand a political logic to that. The one that is perplexing to me is the people who will go halfway, you know, they'll vote. For example, Bernie offered two amendments that you could vote, you know, for blocking offensive weapons. One of them was assault rifles and the other one was like bombs. You had some Democrats who would like vote for one and not the other. What are you doing with that? The Israel lobby people, they're going to hate you. Like AIPAC is not going to support you if you diverge even one inch. And people who see this correctly as a genocide being perpetrated with our tax dollars and are horrified by babies being starved to death are not going to be too impressed with you being like, well you can't have the assault rifles but you can have the bombs or this position that, you know, AOC and others have tried to, to lay out of. Well, we're going to support the, the defensive weapons but not the offensive weapons. People who are animated by this issue which is increasingly, I think a large driving factor within the Democratic base and completely one sided at this point, as you're pointing out at the polls in favor of we have to stop this. Like not only we have to stop funding this, like we need to sanction Israel, we need totally different approach to all of this. They're not going to be impressed with your like, well, the offensive we. No, but the defensive weapons, yes. And well, I'm concerned but maybe it's not a genocide and actually it's just Netanyahu and if we could just get him out of there. You know, I just, I don't know who that is. Like who is that for? Who, who is. What is the, put it the morality aside, like what is the political benefit from trying to position yourself in this manner? And it just doesn't make any sense to me. And it's crazy to me that there's no obvious 2028 candidate for the Democrats who are just like occupying the Zoran lane of I'm in favor of bds, I am an avowed anti Zionist, I'm not afraid to talk about it. I think it's a genocide. I think we should arrest Netanyahu if he comes to the country. It's mind boggling to me, Ryan, that there is no one who is occupying that lane at this point.

[Sagar]

Yeah, Ro Khanna probably getting the closest to it, but yeah, you were referencing the Pete Buttigieg interview with Pod Save yesterday which actually kind of dunked on him for. And Buttigieg was trending after this interview because it was so bad. So let's play and we'll do a little trivia for viewers here. We'll play this clip and you tell us what Pete Buttigieg thinks should be American policy towards Israel. This is B7. Sorry to be out of order here. More than half of Senate Democrats just voted to oppose the sale of over half a billion dollars worth of U.S. bombs and guns to Israel. Would you have voted to oppose sending those weapons?

[G]

I think we need to insist that if American taxpayer funding is going to weaponry that is going to Israel, that that is not going to things that shock the conscience. And look, we see images every day that shock the conscience. So much of this is complicated. But what's not complicated is that if a child is starving because of a choice made by a government that is unconscionable. And we, I think, especially including voices who care about Israel, who believe in Israel's right to exist, who have stood with Israel in response to the unbelievable cruelty and terrorism of October 7th, I think there's a reason why so many of those voices are speaking up now too. Because this is not just something that is on its face and in itself a moral catastrophe. It is also a catastrophe for Israel for the long run.

[Sagar]

How do you think the next administration should handle our relationship with Israel? Do you think it should change based on what Netanyahu has done the last several years?

[G]

Well, certainly Netanyahu can't be the only voice or kind of the only compass for what should happen in the U. S. Israel relationship. And you know, no matter how strongly or especially because of how strongly you might believe in Israel's right to exist and defend itself, you don't have to make excuses for the choices that Netanyahu is making, especially because they are often made not only in the name of the Israeli people, but in the name of a US Alliance. I think that we, as Israel's strongest ally and friend, you put your arm around your friend when there's something like this going on and talk about what we're prepared to do together. And it cannot be, certainly cannot be what we see right now from this administration and this president talking about beachfront property in Gaza before he's prepared to talk about human suffering in Gaza.

[Sagar]

So the question started. Hey, Kat. So the question started with sending weapons to Israel. So trivia question, pop quiz. How does Buttigieg feel about weapons to Israel?

[Guest]

I mean, the truth is, I think we do know from the non answer. I think if the answer was, yes, we should block the weapons, we would have gotten that answer. The truth is he wants to. He understands because Pete's not a stupid guy, as we all know. He understands where the Democratic bases and wants to sort of signal his empathy for that position without actually taking a position that would put him at odds with, you know, where some of his donor bases. And you can only, you know, when I ask the question like, who is this for in Pete's example, we know exactly who it's for. This is donor maintenance. That's what he's doing here. And he thinks because he's a very slippery operator, that at this point he can get away with sort of like restating the question and evincing empathy for the position without actually explaining where he is. And I think, I hope what he, and I hope everybody else is learning is that is not going to cut it. And there's so much about his answer, Ryan, that just disgusts me. First of all, Palestinians are being murdered every day and we still have to center what's good for Israel. Can we just care that babies are being starved to death and that our government is complicit? Can we just care about the fact that, you know, people are being massacred, just trying to seek aid every day in the Gaza Strip? Is that okay? Or do I need to worry first and foremost about how Israelis are feeling about this and what this means for the future of Israel? I find that posture to be morally grotesque at this point. Second of all, and it ties into that, you know, moral atrocity, in my opinion, is this idea that it's just Netanyahu who's the problem and he can't be the only voice here. Oh, really? Well, he's not the only voice. Every poll you look at says, you know what, Israeli society, they're on board with this, by and large. Now there are some, okay, how should we approach the hostages? What? There is some dissent, but by and large, do they care about what is being done to Palestinians? By and large, the answer is no. Not to mention the people who are really driving the ship, oftentimes in terms of Netanyahu's coalition, are the most psycho extremists, Ben Gvir and Smotrich, not to mention the so called opposition figures who are supposedly more moderate, say equally horrific and genocidal things like this idea that liberals love to hold onto, that, oh, it's just the fascist Netanyahu is the problem. If we just got him out of there, then everything could revert to normal. Is, I mean, I can't even say it's a fantasy because I don't believe that he believes that. It's just a total and complete lie that he thinks allows him to maintain what is now a completely untenable position of thinking that liberalism and Zionism can coexist.

[Sagar]

And to that point in polls for the next Israeli government of the top four, you got Netanyahu and then the three below that. The three below are to Netanyahu's right. So this idea that like you're gonna, you know, moderate, that he doesn't represent the full spectrum is just not accurate. A bunch of things jumped out in that quote. One of them was this fear he has of naming Israel, right?

[Guest]

All this passive language.

[Sagar]

One of his quotes was, if a child is starving because of a choice made by a government. A government? Which government?

[Guest]

Which government?

[Sagar]

Which government is that? And I think I've seen you make this point and I'm seeing what Normie Democrats who Gaza is not a top issue for them making it also, which is that they want to see somebody good on this issue because they don't want children starved. But more importantly, they want somebody who has moral fiber and they believe that this is a proxy, that if they're willing to stand up against the special interests that are pushing them to be bad on this issue and they're still good on it, they're still willing to stand up, then that means they're going to be willing to stand up for democracy, they're going to be willing to stand up for people. Ta Nehisi Coates had the great line that says, you know, if you can't draw the line at a genocide, why should I trust that you're actually going to stand up for democracy? And I think that that's exactly right. When people hear him say a child starving because of a choice made by a government, you sound scared, you sound weak. And we don't want scared and weak people now. And your point about restating the question is a good one too. And in the next clip, he does precisely that. I hadn't noticed that tick until you mentioned it, but here let's play B7B where he's asked about recognition of a Palestinian state. Do you think it's time to recognize a Palestinian state?

[G]

I think that's a big, profound question that arouses a lot of the biggest problems that have happened with Israel's survival, Israel's right to survival in the diplomatic scene. And many of the people who have taken that step historically have done so for different reasons than what we see happening with European countries. I think we need to step back and we need to do whatever it takes to ensure that there is a real two state solution and that no one, not even the likes of Netanyahu, can veto the international community's commitment to a two state solution where you have Palestinians and Israelis living with safety, with security, with rights. I believe that can happen, but we have to actually show some commitment to it.

[Sagar]

So that's a profound Question. Yeah.

[Guest]

My Pete hatred is so vindicated. It's so vindicated. Yeah. It's a profound question that arouses a lot of the biggest questions. Ryan. That's what that is.

[Sagar]

That's what that is.

[Guest]

Cool, thanks.

[Sagar]

So, Ro Khanna, who has been floated as a 2028 candidate, did not appreciate that response. You can put up the next element. He says, I respect Pete. He diverges from you there. He says, I respect Pete, but we need moral clarity, not status quo. Yes. Jon Favreau. Dems should have voted for the Sanders amendment. So there's an answer to the question, yes, Dems should join my letter recognizing a Palestinian state. Again, an answer to the question, yes. Trump and Biden disastrously failed on Gaza and we need a new human rights centered vision. So if you believe that Khanna is testing the waters for 2028, he seems his political sensibilities are sensing here that there is a lane here, that you can go after Trump and Biden here, and that you can stand up here, you can go after other Democrats and that Democratic voters will be with you. You think he. And I can't think of anybody else who's kind of dipped their toes in these waters who's being more clear than him, which is kind of disturbing.

[Guest]

Yeah. And, you know, and I think, I personally think Roe needs to go farther. I think he needs. I think he needs to acknowledge the international consensus that it's a genocide. So even with him, you know, I think people, to your point, they don't wanna see you tiptoeing around. Right. They don't want to feel like they're getting Weasley slippery answers, which is what you get overwhelmingly with Pete and Roe is miles better. Like it's not included. I think you're right. He is leading in terms of the candidates who are sort of positioning themselves for 2028 in his approach of this issue and seems to have some understanding of the way that this is functioning as a moral litmus test even above and beyond the horrors that we see with Gaza. But, you know, it. Also, I think what is notable in particular about Roe's tweet is not just he directly answers the question, that's kind of nice. But then he says it's Trump and Biden. And I do think part of the reason that some Democrats are tying themselves into knots and not wanting to, you know, take these votes or give direct answers or whatever is because they're implicated. And they don't. And they don't want to say, you know what, they were right. Biden and Harris were complicit in a genocide. I mean, that's a tough pill for them to swallow. And then they have to go back and look at, well, what votes did I take during that time period and what is my responsibility to make right from my own complicity here? And I think that is, you know, apart, separate and apart from the money and the influence of that, which is obviously very, very real. I think there's also a lack of desire to look backwards, take accountability for one's actions, and critically, to have responsibility for ending this going forward. Because if you say it's a genocide, then that would indicate, as someone who is in an elected position of power, you have a lot of responsibility, especially given our government support for that genocide, to go above and beyond the call of duty to try to end these horrors. And I think that many of these Democrats don't want that responsibility on their shoulders, that historic weight, because that's what it is to rest on their shoulders.

[Sagar]

And from a pure cynical political perspective, the numbers make it not difficult. I mentioned that 8% earlier. We can put up B9 here. Here's a tweet from Anel Shaleen, who was one of the State Department resignations resignees. She resigned in protest. So this is 32% of Americans approving of Israel's military actions. Among Democrats, the number's down to eight. And among independents, the number is 25%. And, you know, people who. Among Republicans, it's 71%. If you look at young Republicans, it's, you know, way, way down among that 25% of independents, you're going to have a decent number of people who are older Republicans but call themselves independents. And pollsters understand this phenomenon. The same with Democrats. There's a portion of people who call themselves independents who operate just like partisan Democrats. And same with partisan Republicans. So true independence, the number's gonna be much less than 25%. But among Democrats, 8%. 8% support, that is. You know, politicians are always looking for 70, 30 issues or 80, 20 issues. It's rare they get a 92. 8 issue where most of their opponents or their adversaries in the primary are with the 8%. Yeah, this is a chance to be.

[Guest]

With the 92, chance of a lifetime for someone.

[Sagar]

There's such a thing as political gravity that is going to bring this all down at some point.

[Guest]

I feel like that. I do feel like that. And, you know, there's a kind of a beltway conventional wisdom that, oh, foreign policy doesn't really matter. People don't vote based on foreign policy. I don't really know how you live through the fallout from the Iraq war and continue to hold that view, let alone, I mean, prior to our time, the Vietnam War, and still feel, oh, people don't really care about foreign policy because not only is it important in terms of, you know, international stability and young men in particular being sent off to fight and die in these wars by, you know, mostly rich people sitting in Washington, D.C. but it does speak to these larger moral questions. And on the Democratic side, it really exposes the hypocrisy about a party that tries to position itself as the champion of democracy and liberal human rights that you're still standing in lockstep with this rogue nation committing genocide and, you know, bombarding all of its neighbors in this hyper aggressive fashion that we're actively, you know, supporting and participating in. And on the Republican side, it really exposes the hypocrisy of the idea that this administration would be America first and that American interests would be the priority first and foremost. So, and in both instances, it really serves as a litmus test for who is willing to have a shred of integrity or stand on principle even when there is organized money and other social and cultural interests that are aligned against you. And so far, the overwhelming number of politicians in both parties at this point are failing that test.

[Ice Cube]

The reviews and ratings are in, and Ice Cube's Big Three is the surprise hit of the summer. This Saturday, 4pm Eastern on CBS, with playoff elimination on the line, the stars will be flocking to Los Angeles to witness the most physical, fiercest and competitive basketball in the world. Miami's Michael Beasley and Lance Stevenson must win over Houston to make the playoffs, reeling from last week's savage beating at the hands of Chicago's possessed Montrez Harrow. Last time these teams met, Miami beat Houston, but they are a dangerous team having their manhood at stake. Then breakout star Dwight Howard of the LA Riot will battle Gary Payton's Boston squad in a do or die match. For both teams, will LA avenge their previous shocking loss to perennial basketball Boston rivals? To survive, six teams are allowed for four spots and all must win. Don't miss the Big Three, the three on three basketball league everyone is talking about. There's no crying in the big three and the no holds barred action starts Saturday at 4pm Eastern, 1pm Pacific, followed by two games on Vice starting at 6:30 Eastern. Presented by iHeart.

[Crystal]

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[Guest]

Let'S skip forward to the much anticipated gender portion of the show in this WNBA situation, which I only recently because I guess this has been going on for a while. So Ryan, I don't know if you follow this, but basically there's some crypto company that decided it would be a fun stunt to start throwing. By the way, content warning if there were kids watching this show. I don't really think kids should watch the show, but anyway, if they're kids watching the show, this is not really appropriate content for them. Anyway, this crypto company decides it'd be a fun stunt to get publicity for them by throwing dildos at various sporting events. And they claim that they did this at other sporting events as well. But but the ones that got the most attention were when they started throwing these neon green like brat summer colored dildos out at WNBA games. This became a whole thing and you know, became incredibly even more politically relevant when Don Jr shared this meme of his dad standing on the roof of the White House, which was something he did recently throwing one of these green dildos onto the floor of the WNBA game that is miraculously below the the White House here so, you know, I guess embrace ultimately here of the phenomenon. And the reason I wanted to cover this is because, first of all, I think there's a lot going on that hasn't been discussed with gender dynamics on the right that I think are worth exploring. Second of all, as you pointed out earlier, you know, the Republican Party has really wrapped itself around this idea that they're the champion of women's sports. So a little bit at odds with that. And third of all, there is a Sagar online betting angle of this as well, which you could put E3 up on the screen. You can now bet on what color dildo via polymarket gets thrown onto the WNBA court. You can bet on this. So of course people say, oh, well, why don't I just sneak it. Why don't I just bet a lot of money on the purple dildo getting thrown out and sneak in a purple dildo and throw it onto the court. That is now a thing that is possible. Which I think speaks to obviously, this is incredibly degrading for these professional athletes who are extraordinary, who for the first time are really getting like a lot of attention. You know, ticket sales to WNBA games are up. Like, the WNBA is actually having a moment. This is obviously like extraordinary degrading to them. And to have the president's son like, embracing this. And then it's also like, it's degrading to women's sports, but the betting aspect of it makes it clear, like, this is degrading to all sports. And in the same way that the, the BLS numbers rigging just sort of like makes you feel like, oh, well, I can't really take any of these numbers that are coming from the government seriously anymore. They're all just being like, hyped to please Trump. It starts to feel like that about all of these sporting events where it's like, all right, well, who's cashing in? Who's being paid what, which refs are on the take to, you know, make this call or make this play or miss this free throw or whatever. Cuz you can bet down to these individual outcomes and it just really does degrade your sense that there's anything real about these sporting events at all.

[Sagar]

Yeah. And Trump at his press conference yesterday, announcing that he's going to bring the National Guard out, by the way, seemed a little off, like even for him at that press conference. But even in that one, he veered off into, you know, his, his defense of, of women's sports and, you know, you know, which are under threat from the transgenders. Let's roll E2 for that. That's why they want men playing in women's sports. That's what they. Why they want transgender for everybody. Everybody transgender. So I genuinely don't think. I'm curious if your take Crystal, in his mind that he actually sees the hypocrisy or a contradiction between, you know, his son posting this meme that encourages the debasement of women's sports with his constant invocation of his support for women's sports. Because I think in his mind, he's not serious about the latter, and so therefore it's. It wouldn't even occur to him.

[Guest]

Well, and that's like, I don't even know if Trump is aware that this meme got posted. Right? But certainly Don Jr. Is also involved in all the hand wringing about, you know, the integrity of women's sports. And it's also always been total and complete bullshit. Like, these would be the same people who would denigrate women athletes and never shown any sort of interest in actual, like, female athletics. And I say this as a former, you know, female athlete myself, Division one swimmer myself. These are not people who ever cared. I mean, they always, like, this would be the type who would complain about the requirements that women's sports receive equals funding to male sports at colleges and. And those sorts of things. So there's that. And then, you know, I, I wanted to also. I think that the other element here that deserves, you know, deserves discussion is the WNBA is overwhelmingly black women, and it's overwhelmingly lgbtq. So it's overwhelmingly, like, queer women, black women and black queer women. And I think that's part of what makes them such a target by individuals like Don Jr. For derision, where out of one side of their mouth, they can talk about, oh, the integrity of women's sports, blah, blah, blah, and at the other side, side of their mouth, be incredibly denigrating. And I just have to tell you, like, as. As a woman, I. I do feel like just outright hatred of women has. Is becoming increasingly normalized. And I don't think that's just. You've got the whole manosphere direction. You have, you know, this, like, ideology that women should just be. Which is coming both from the, like, degenerate right, like the Andrew Tate right, and from the, like, evangelical Christian right that women should just be, like, controlled by men. And it's a view just to make it, you know, clear. I'm not just being sort of, like, delusional and hysterical about this. It's a view that's being embraced by people who are at the highest levels of power in our government, including Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who recently who goes to a church that has very extreme views on gender, including apparently the head pastor believing that the that women should not really be able to vote. And Hegseth recently reposted and shared a segment from CNN of these people talking about how the 19th Amendment should be repealed and women should not be allowed to vote. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a portion of this segment that Hegseth shared and elevated.

[Crystal]

Wilson says in his vision of a Christian society, women as individuals shouldn't be able to vote.

[Guest]

His fellow pastors, Jared Longshore and Toby Sumter agree.

[Sagar]

In my ideal society, we would vote as households and I would ordinarily be the one that would cast the vote, but I would cast the vote having discussed it with my household.

[Host]

But what if there's a.

[Guest]

Your wife doesn't want to vote for the same person as you.

[Sagar]

Right. Well, then that's a great opportunity for a good discussion.

[Guest]

There are some who have gone so far as to say that they want the 19th amendment repealed.

[Sagar]

I would support that. And I'd support it on the basis that the atomization that comes with our current system is not good for humans.

[Guest]

And we can see the way that attitudes are shifting culturally too. Ryan, if we put E6 up on the screen so we can see in These surveys of 10th and 12th grade boys that there's a cultural shift away from just basic liberal views of gender equality. One of the questions is a woman should have the same job opportunities as a man. You can see the dramatic decline here in the number of boys who agree with this. Again, basic liberal sentiment. And this other one that says men and women should be paid the same amount of money if they do the same work, also a significant decline. So that those levels are below where they were in 1990 when I was nine years old. This to me is very disturbing, Ryan. And I don't know what, you know, if you think about UFC daughters also, you just care about gender equality as a matter of principle as well a wife that you care about who's extraordinarily accomplished. I don't know. Do you see this happening and where do you think this comes from and what do you think it means?

[Sagar]

Yeah, I saw these numbers a couple days ago and they are really stark. And I'll be a man and mansplain. You had said 10th and 12th just for the viewer. 8th and 10th.

[Guest]

Oh, sorry.

[Sagar]

Which is. Doesn't change the meaning here. 2018 seems to be this inflection point here where you see this real drop off, less of a drop off. So 2018, of course, it's the height of the MeToo movement and interestingly, you don't see much increase in oftentimes if you're going to see a backlash like this, first you'll see an increase in support, but you don't really see that like you see just an immediate fall off. Let's put that element back up on the screen so people can see it again. You do see an increase in support for A woman should have the same job opportunities as a man starting a little after 2010. This is the period of time they call the Great Awokening. So while people are reconsidering gender and race and sexuality in the culture, you see an uptick there. But MeToo itself doesn't translate here to any gains at all and instead starts to push the numbers off the cliff. And so it's hard. This is also around the time, I guess, that young men start drifting towards Trump. So, yeah, I think these are really profound numbers and I think say a lot about our politics. What's your thought on the connection to 2018?

[Guest]

I think it's a reasonable possibility. I point more to. Because you see this fall off, it's.

[Sagar]

All one big bundle. But go ahead.

[Guest]

Yeah, and also, I mean, I think for everybody, but for men in particular, where the cultural value proposition for men is basically like, you know, what, what makes you a man is you can provide. Right? You have the job, you can, you can provide for your family and buy the house. And that's been taken off the table. Right. For, for so many people. And I think when you have a population that is very stressed, economically stressed about what the future looks like, which is not only economics, but, you know, the, the most clear cut example is like material conditions and possibilities. I think it makes it very easy to present a zero sum picture and to scapegoat. And I think that scapegoating, you know, again, it connects to like the, the women's sports thing. Like, we know what this, who the scapegoats are. It's like trans people, it's immigrants and, and it's women. So I think there is a zero sum portrait of, well, if these, if these women are getting ahead, then you're, that's taking away from you. And if you have a population that's doing well, that's not going to hold a lot of water, that's not going to have a lot of appeal. But if you have A population that's really stressed, then they're going to be more open to those arguments of like, geez, the reason I can't get a decent job. The reason it's because these, all these women, you know, schools are designed for women and all these women going to college and, you know, women are, instead of being where they should be in the house, they're, they're taking the job that should rightfully be mine. I think it just makes people more open to that sort of zero sum scapegoating, which again, is not just expressed in terms of regressive views towards women, but is also expressed in terms of, you know, immigrants, in terms of trans people, in terms of anyone who could be picked, you know, portrayed as like an other who's taking away from, from you something that you truly deserve. So that's sort of my, my larger analysis of what's going on there. And, you know, the MeToo backlash play into that. Possible. But the reason I don't point my finger directly at that is because you see this trend across groups, not just with regard to women. And by the way, I see the attack on transgender people as also, you know, not just being about those individuals who are easy to portray as like, different, weird, other degenerate and all these sorts of things. I also see that as an attack on women and controlling like the bounds of what, what you can be as what it looks like to be a woman. And we've seen examples of this where someone who doesn't present, you know, in the like, classic feminine way, scrutiny scrutinizes like, oh, you're not allowed to be in this bathroom. And, and it creates these tighter gender prescribed gender roles when you go after trans people in this way as well.

[Sagar]

Yeah, and the questions here are just wild. Put the element back up on the screen if you have a second. Just to be clear, the two things that people are agreeing and disagreeing with here, a woman should have the same job opportunities as a man. And then the other one is men and women should be paid the same money if they do the same work. And for that latter 1, only 57% of these 8th and 10th grade boys agree completely that men and women should be paid the same money if they do the same work. Now, somewhat agree, it gets you up to 8 and 10. Okay, good. But what's the somewhat here? Like, what is the circumstance where a man does the job and gets paid more than a woman doing the job? And the same, a woman should have the same job opportunities as a man? Agree completely. It's down to 45%. So you add somewhat, it gets you up to 72%. But what's the circumstance here in these kids mind where the opposite should be the case? It's just, it's dark that this is where these boys are.

[Guest]

Yeah. And I think it ties into this cultural sense I have that values that were kind of taken for granted, you know, that I thought were just like we all kind of accepted and you know, that women should be in the kitchen idea or whatever or even just that it's good to be humble, it's good to care about your fellow human. These things that I just thought were sort of like baked into society at this point more or less, you know, as like aspirational values that they've just been in many instances turned on their head or that there's been tremendous backsliding. And that was, I guess what disturbed me the most about this chart is the fact that in 1990 we had young boys had better just like basic equality of gender values than in the year 2025. That is profoundly disturbing to me because it just speaks to the possibility of like, okay, well where does this end? You know, and that's why again to tie back to the Pete Hexa thing, when you see the Secretary of Defense being like pretty much co signing the view that women should just not be allowed to vote. It may seem preposterous, but a lot of things that I would have thought were preposterous have been put back on the table. Which is why I'm trying to make a concerted effort to pay more attention to these. You can't even call it a warning sign when it's the frickin Secretary of Defense who has a lot of sway over, you know, the way women are treated, for example in the military and what possibilities and jobs are open to women in the military and whether they are being paid the same as equally qualified man in that role. So. So in any case, I, I guess I'll just wrap it all in a bow and say I find it to be part of a larger cultural phenomenon of basic value and morality backsliding. And I find it to be deeply disturbing because I don't know where the bottom is.

[Sagar]

Yeah, no, those numbers are pointing straight down. It'd be one thing if that's where they stopped. But yeah, there's no indication that a year from now that dot's not going to be significantly lower.

[Guest]

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. All right guys, well thank you so much for hanging out with us today. As we had a very, I would say it was a qu. A widely varied show today. Ryan. That's how I would describe it. If there was too much commie takeover for you today, don't worry. The, the what we affectionately tongue in cheek called the fascist takeover will come in tomorrow with Sagar and Emily after the commie takeover today. So they, we, we discussed explicitly with them. They're going to cover the D.C. national Guard crime story as well. So you can sort of choose your own adventure with with whether you want the, the lefty or the right wing perspective on what's going on there. As always, we really appreciate you guys. Thank you so much to premium supporters who make all of this possible and have made the expansion possible. If you want to become a premium subscriber, BreakingPoints.com, you get our live AMA, you get the full Friday show and lots of other good stuff in between. Ryan, always fun my friend, always good to see you and we'll see you guys very soon.

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[Ryan]

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[Sagar]

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[Guest]

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[Host]

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