8/20/25: Trump Says No Troops In Ukraine, Cuomo Prays For Trump Rescue, Epstein Coverup, US Troops Near Venezuela, Steel Tariffs & MORE!

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar — August 20, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti cover a range of hot-button issues in politics and world affairs—most notably Trump’s statements about U.S. military involvement in Ukraine, new rumors of possible U.S. action in Venezuela and Mexico, Andrew Cuomo’s leaked comments concerning Trump, the ongoing attempts to force disclosure about the Epstein case, the rebranding of MSNBC as “Ms. Now,” significant steel and aluminum tariffs, and a powerful interview with Arab Barghouti, son of famed Palestinian political prisoner Marwan Barghouti.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump Rules Out U.S. Troops in Ukraine (MM:05:06–MM:19:04)

• Fox and Friends Interview: Trump asserts he will not put U.S. troops on the ground in Ukraine:
  “You have my assurance… I'm just trying to stop people from being killed. Russia is a powerful military nation… not a war that should have been started.” (Donald Trump, 06:19)

• Ambiguity Remains:
  Krystal explains the anxiety in MAGA world after Trump’s ambiguous “we’ll find out” comment about troops. Bolton’s glee at the prospect of U.S. involvement is discussed, highlighting potential for “train and assist” missions:
  “That could be indeed what the security guarantee looks like.” (Krystal Ball, 07:25)

• Escalation Concerns:
  Saagar warns that proposing American air power instead of physical troops still crosses a line and could lead to war with Russia:
  “As aggressive as... they have not floated putting American troops there. They have not said that they might have American warplanes flying over Ukraine directly, then tangling with Russian warplanes.” (Saagar Enjeti, 07:43)

• Trump’s Framing:
  Trump uses his goal of “getting to heaven” by saving lives as rhetorical cover:
  “If I can save 7,000 people a week from being killed, I think that's a pretty— I want to try and get to heaven if possible. I'm hearing I'm not doing well.” (Donald Trump, 08:45)

• Stalemate Analysis:
  Both hosts emphasize the meat grinder nature of the conflict and the dangers of ambiguous U.S. security guarantees.
  “This war is a stalemate. It is a meat grinder... people who are skeptical...are desperate right now to get an end to the conflict.” (Krystal Ball, 10:48)

• Negotiation Speculation:
  They parse how Russia’s interest is in seizing territory and removing Zelensky, while Ukraine wants more than a brief ceasefire.
  “Russia has the momentum and... resources. They don't actually need the pause as much as Ukraine would.” (Saagar Enjeti, 12:36)

• European Reaction & Trump’s Method:
  Reaction to reports Trump called Putin while Western leaders were at the White House—a power move, but also fueling suspicion about his motivations:
  “Trump perhaps being the only major American politician that could actually bring Vladimir Putin to the table.” (Krystal Ball, 18:02)

Notable Quotes

• “It's not literal boots on the ground, but it's boots over the ground... And the boots could be on the ground if things don't go right.” (Krystal Ball & Saagar, 08:13–08:18)
• “They literally see them as little plastic toys that you can move around.” (Saagar Enjeti, 10:45)

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2. Andrew Cuomo’s Leaked Audio and Strategy with Trump (MM:23:41–MM:39:06)

• Leaked Hamptons Fundraiser Audio:
  Cuomo suggests he expects Trump’s cooperation to help him in New York and that Trump wants “redemption” there. Cuomo downplays Curtis Sliwa’s mayoral candidacy and seeks to “minimize” that vote.

• Reaction:
  Krystal and Saagar dissect whether this makes Cuomo appear “sloppier” and less competent, especially as his campaign now tangentially aligns with both Trump and Republican donors.

• Cuomo Team’s Meme Fiasco:
  Cuomo’s campaign is forced to distance itself from self-proclaimed “meme lord” Jason Levin, a MAGA booster and union-basher exposed online.
  “He suggested one meme to someone on that team. ...Hatred, bigotry, misogyny, and anything like that has no place in this race. Misogyny has no place in the Cuomo race. This is shocking information.” (Krystal Ball, 34:43)

• Chris Cuomo’s Critique:
  Chris Cuomo, at odds with his brother’s party, claims “Democrats suck. All the little people are getting squashed. These elites are killing us.” (Ryan Grim, quoting Chris Cuomo, 37:14)

Notable Quotes

• “He's running a kitchen table election… not a resistance culture war candidacy.” (Krystal Ball, 29:56)
• “If Mamdani is better at campaigning than you are, and you've been campaigning your entire life… then why should we believe that he's not also going to be just more competent?” (Saagar Enjeti, 28:21)

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3. Epstein Coverup and Congressional Movement for Disclosure (MM:54:45–MM:69:46)

• Ro Khanna Interview:
  Rep. Khanna details the bipartisan push (with Thomas Massie) to force disclosure of Epstein-related documents.
  “We have all 212 Democrats... and 11 Republicans, including people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert… So when we come back September 3rd, we're going to put the discharge petition out.” (Ryan Grim, 55:16)

• Roadblocks:
  GOP leadership shut down Congress a week early to avoid a vote. Fear of Trump’s retaliation (via Truth Social) keeps Republicans in line.

• Victims' Stories:
  The victims want disclosure and have not been centered in the story. Press conference on September 3rd will feature victims' firsthand testimonies.

• EPstein-Related Inaction:
  The hosts criticize both Republicans and Democrats for not following through on anti-child sex trafficking rhetoric, highlighting the Las Vegas–Israel pedophile scandal and the tendency of Congress to simply adjourn after the Epstein files issue arises.
  “You know, number of days since they covered up a child sex abuse ring and they'd have to wipe it back down to zero…” (Saagar Enjeti, 60:12)

• Shift on Israel:
  Khanna describes a tectonic political shift in Congress regarding Israel and Palestine after recent humanitarian crises in Gaza.

Notable Quotes

• “Their voices haven't been considered. Their lawyer hasn't been consulted on what should be released.” (Ryan Grim for Ro Khanna, 59:17)
• “Now Donald Trump's not doing it. It's a fundamental betrayal to the MAGA base.” (Ryan Grim for Ro Khanna, 61:20)

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4. MSNBC Rebrands as “Ms. Now” — Claims ‘Insurgent’ Identity (MM:42:09–MM:51:28)

• MSNBC announces it will become “Ms. Now”—“My Source News Opinion World”—claiming an “insurgent independent network” identity.
• Hosts lampoon the idea that a spinoff containing CNBC, USA, Oxygen, Syfy, and the Golf Channel can credibly call itself insurgent, independent, or anti-corporate.
• “To say that you’re moving away from corporate media as a corporation with a board full of corporate media...is obviously laughable.” (Krystal Ball, 45:50)

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5. U.S. Militarism—Venezuela and Mexico in Trump’s Sights (MM:72:56–MM:87:09)

• State Department Moves & Rumors:
  The U.S. posts a $50M reward for “fugitive narco trafficker,” who turns out to be Venezuela’s sitting president, Maduro.

• U.S. Troop Movements:
  Trump has not ruled out military action in Venezuela; warships and Marines have been deployed, fueling speculation about a new regime change operation. White House Press Secretary Levitt declines to rule out “boots on the ground.”
  “President Trump has been very clear and consistent. He's prepared to use every element of American power…” (Caroline Levitt, 74:00)

• Neoconservatism vs. ‘America First’:
  Krystal and Saagar note the contradiction between America First rhetoric and interventionist plans in Venezuela and Mexico, led in part by Marco Rubio.

• Rolling Stone and NYT Reports:
  Reports detail that Trump signed secret directives to plan direct military action against cartels in Latin America—possibly including regime change.

• Analysis:
  Rubio’s personal and political motivations are dissected as driving forces behind this potential policy, with the inertia of decades-long anti-communism in South Florida and D.C. shaping the agenda.

Notable Quotes

• “No sense, guys. There are plenty of Venezuelans who would love America to fuel a coup.” (Krystal Ball, 76:14)
• “This could badly blow up in Rubio's face if he gets his wish and actually gets some type of confrontation.” (Saagar Enjeti, 87:00)

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6. Interview: Arab Barghouti on Marwan Barghouti and Palestinian Politics (MM:91:08–MM:112:51)

• Background:
  Marwan Barghouti is described as Palestine’s most popular leader, a champion for peaceful two-state solutions, and someone viewed as “Palestine’s Mandela.”
  “Marwan Bragouthi is the most popular leader in Palestine for a reason. It's for what he's given to the cause.” (Arab Barghouti, 92:47)

• Israeli Internal Politics:
  Arab recounts recent video of extremist Israeli minister Ben Gvir threatening his father in prison. Describes the mistreatment, beatings, and fractured prison system under Israeli authority.

• Character Assassination:
  Arab discusses Israel’s labeling of his father as a terrorist, the flawed trial, and the broader issue of the Israeli military court system’s lack of legitimacy.
  “They make kids when they are 13 and 14, sign on Hebrew statements without understanding what they are, without having a lawyer, without having a guardian present.” (Arab Barghouti, 107:00)

• Hope for Peace and Leadership:
  Emphasis placed on the potential for a peaceful future and unifying Palestinian leadership, despite decades-long setbacks and division.
  “Hopelessness is a privilege that we, Palestinians know, don't have.” (Arab Barghouti, 110:19)

Notable Quotes

• “It's time to humanize Palestinians and to stop the double standards.” (Arab Barghouti, 103:07)
• “He represents a unifying figure that everyone respects… We want to end this by establishing a Palestinian independent state.” (Arab Barghouti, 112:50)

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7. Trump Expands Steel & Aluminum Tariffs (MM:112:58–MM:123:21)

• Policy Expansion:
  Trump expands 50% tariffs to 407 new products, including car parts, wind turbines, mobile cranes—totaling $320B in goods (Jason Miller analysis, 114:18).

• Economic Consequences:
  Saagar notes that this is a $160B “sucked out of the consumer economy.” U.S. manufacturers complain:
  “If you are in farming or construction or manufacturing, your costs are going to go up as a result.” (Saagar Enjeti, 115:24)
  John Deere announces layoffs, citing the effect of tariffs (117:49).

• Political Angle:
  Krystal discusses whether Trump’s unpredictable tariff toggling is meant for political impact near election years, at the cost of economic stability.

• Long-term Uncertainty:
  The precedent for emergency tariffs leads to chronic uncertainty for U.S. industry and consumers.

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Notable Quotes — Highlight Reel

• “You have my assurance… I'm just trying to stop people from being killed.” —Donald Trump (06:19)
• “This war is a stalemate. It is a meat grinder.” —Krystal Ball (10:48)
• “We have all 212 Democrats... and 11 Republicans... So when we come back September 3rd, we're going to put the discharge petition out.” —Rep. Ro Khanna (55:16)
• “To say that you’re moving away from corporate media as a corporation with a board full of corporate media...is obviously laughable.” —Krystal Ball (45:50)
• “President Trump has been very clear and consistent. He's prepared to use every element of American power…” —Caroline Levitt (74:00)
• “Hopelessness is a privilege that we, Palestinians know, don't have.” —Arab Barghouti (110:19)
• “If you are in farming or construction or manufacturing, your costs are going to go up as a result.” —Saagar Enjeti (115:24)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Trump's position on Ukraine: 05:06–19:04
• Cuomo Trump audio, meme fiasco: 23:41–39:06
• Epstein coverup & Ro Khanna interview: 54:45–69:46
• MSNBC rebrands as “Ms. Now”: 42:09–51:28
• US troops near Venezuela & Mexico plans: 72:56–87:09
• Interview with Arab Barghouti: 91:08–112:51
• Steel & aluminum tariffs: 112:58–123:21

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a wide-ranging, in-depth look into ongoing domestic and international crises, blending news updates, political analysis, policy implications, and direct interviews. As always, the tone is incisive—often sardonic—and fiercely independent, making sense of the tumultuous state of politics in 2025 for listeners who crave substance beyond mainstream narratives.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Krystal Ball]

Welcome to today.

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[Krystal Ball]

Guys, Sagar and Kristal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become.

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[Krystal Ball]

To our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every.

[Washable Sofas Commercial Announcer]

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[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail].

[Saagar Enjeti]

Good morning and welcome to Breaking Points. Emily, how you doing?

[Krystal Ball]

Great. I like the tie.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Thank you.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know if I've seen that tie before. It looks great.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Tennis rackets on it.

[Krystal Ball]

Ryan is very sporty.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, and by the way, big thank you to premium supporters here this week. Sagar had a pretty cool scoop where he got a bunch of documents related to the completely insane case out of Las Vegas where a pedophile who was in town from Israel and worked basically directly for Netanyahu was arrested and then let go again. You guys have been following this story. Sager got up, did the old fashioned thing, made a bunch of phone calls, got the documents. That video was sent out to premium subscribers the night before. The rest of the world warned about it the next day on the show. So one more reason to go to breakingpoints.com and pony up.

[Krystal Ball]

And it's a good reason. It's a good reason.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Very good reason.

[Krystal Ball]

So on today's show, we're gonna start with updates from Ukraine. Donald Trump is ruling out US Troops on the ground, but we'll see if that's actually the case.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On which ground? On the ground in Ukraine but not necessarily Venezuela, which we'll also talk to.

[Krystal Ball]

Exactly. Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We need those troops. It's like a game of risk. He's only got like one little guy. He can either move it to Ukraine or down to South America.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, South America.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There's only one route to defend. So Trump's like that. I can get my extra turns on the roll there. Venezuela and Mexico, extra troops on the right turn.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah. So Venezuela and Mexico potentially on the table. So we will talk about updates in Ukraine, but we'll also talk about how the administration is looking at potential plans for Venezuela and Mexico. Wild leaked audio from Andrew Cuomo in the Hamptons. You're not going to want to miss that one. Representative Ro Khanna is here with us. Ryan, we also have another interesting guest.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes, Arab Barghouti is the son of Marwan Barghouti. And one of the criticisms you often hear is where is the Palestinian's Nelson Mandela? And the answer is, well, they either probably killed him early or he's in an Israeli detention center being brutalized. And a lot of people believe that Marwan Barghouti is a version of the Palestinian Nelson Mandela. He was recently threatened by Itamar Ben gvir, who visited like the courageous man. He has visited him in his jail cell to basically threaten his life. So we're going to be joined by his son later today.

[Krystal Ball]

Big interview and more updates on tariffs. So Trump actually expanded tariffs on steel and aluminum yesterday. So we're going to break down what that means for the economy. Let's go to Ukraine, Ryan, and start with this clip of President Trump on FOX and Friends. Yesterday morning, there was a little bit of anxiety in MAGA world after Donald Trump was asked at that big White House summit whether or not that would mean US Boots on the ground, whether or not part of this negotiation could include American troops. Does the security guarantee look like potentially American troops defending Ukraine in case of another invasion by Russia? And Trump said, basically, we'll find out, we'll find out. He said we'll find out over the course of the meeting. And so because of that, it looks like he got this question on Fox and Friends. And this is going to be a big part of whatever negotiation is hashed out. So it's well worth paying attention to what Donald Trump is saying. So this is Trump on Fox and Friends yesterday.

[Ryan Grim]

What kind of assurances do you feel like you have that going forward and you know, past this Trump administration, it won't be American boots on the ground defending that border?

[Donald Trump (clip)]

Well, you have my assurance, you know, I'm president and I'm just trying to stop people from being killed. Russia is a powerful military nation. You know, whether people like it or not, it's a powerful nation. It's a much bigger nation. It's not a war that should have been started. You don't do that. You don't take, you don't take on a nation that's 10 times your size. And you know, military experts, the Ukrainian soldiers were brave as hell because it's fighting a force that's much, much bigger and in theory, much more powerful. And, you know, it's not like they've stopped. I assume you've all seen the map. You know, a big chunk of territory.

[Krystal Ball]

Is taken a lot of wiggle room. Of course, actually, as John Bolton himself pointed out the night before on cnn, he was saying basically he's almost gleeful, can't wait for MAGA to hear that maybe there'll be boots on the ground in Ukraine. Then he goes on to say, basically, we already had that. We were doing train and assist missions after 2014 on the ground in UK and that point is actually one of the few things John Bolton says that's worth really camping out on Ryan, because that could be indeed what the security guarantee looks like.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's good to pay attention whenever Bolton is happy about something. It's a good heuristic, say, okay, wait a minute, tap the brakes here. Trump has also floated, well, maybe there will just be American air power and it'll be European boots on the ground, but American air power, as aggressive as the foreign policy establishment has been against Russia and in support of Ukraine over the last couple decades, they have not established a no fly zone. They have not floated putting American troops there. They have not said that they might have American warplanes flying over Ukraine directly, then tangling with Russian warplanes.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Which means war with Russia.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, it's not literal boots on the ground, but it's boots over the ground.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And the boots could be on the ground.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If things don't go right.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. So, yeah, this is a real ramping up of American involvement in this conflict, which was quite the opposite of what we were told we were going to get here.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. So the Kremlin is also, right now, according to BBC, playing down talk of this imminent summit. The idea that it's happening in the next couple of weeks, they are currently downplaying. Meanwhile, this is another banger from Trump yesterday. Let's roll a two.

[Donald Trump (clip)]

I want to end it. You know, we're not losing American lives, we're not losing American soldiers. We're losing Russian and Ukrainian, mostly soldiers. Some people as missiles hit wrong spots or get lobbed into cities like Kiev and towns. But, you know, if I can save 7,000 people a week from being killed, I think that's a pretty. I want to try and get to heaven if possible. I'm hearing I'm not doing well. I hear I'm really at the bottom of the totem pole. But if I can get to heaven, this will be one of the reasons. Well, I think I saved a lot of lives with India.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, that was more from the Fox and Friends hit where Trump, towards the end of it, said he wants to get to heaven, but he feels like he's at the bottom of the totem pole.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He has been. I mean, he knows he's led a very bad life. He's aware of what he has done to every. Like, I don't think he's ever worked with a contractor or subcontractor that he hasn't ripped off. Yeah, even I've met people that he's like, whose lives he's destroyed just because he didn't pay on time and pay in full for what he owed. That's just a little stuff from when he was a fake mogul, a Fogle. So he knows where he's headed if he believes in any of this stuff. But he has been talking about the human cost of the Russia, Ukraine war for years now, to the point where you have to start to credit it as something that he actually believes. He actually genuinely does seem to care about the scale of the loss, the human loss on those front lines, which a lot of presidents throughout American history have just seen those things as numbers, particularly if they're not even Americans.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, we were talking, you used the risk metaphor earlier in the show as we were opening up, and that's actually how the Boltons of the world, it's this callous, sort of detached idea that you're playing risk with real life. Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Those plastic troops die, you take them off the board. That's all.

[Krystal Ball]

It's in the interest of the creation.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They literally see them as little plastic toys that you can move around.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. That is the means that justify their great end, is how they picture it in their own minds. Now, what is, I think, somewhat worrying. No, extremely worrying about that, is this war is a stalemate. It is a meat grinder. And that's where even people who are skeptical of the entire involvement, the U.S. s entire involvement in this conflict, are desperate right now to get an end to the conflict. And that might mean some type of really ambiguous, vague abusable security guarantee that because this is a conflict with no obvious end in sight, I think everybody knows, even if part of the Donbas is given to Russia or if Russia has, you know, secured part of the Donbas by the end of these negotiations, then it's not over. It means they're still sharing a border. Like, it's very obviously not over forever. And so five years from now, after another flare up, do you have US Planes, for example, air cover and deaths in Ukraine because of whatever is hashed out now that people are desperate to end the conflict.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, Right. And maybe it'll never be over. But Trump is in a tricky spot where he's trying to find something where there's overlap between the two, the two sides here, that Ukraine is clearly seems at this point willing to concede that they're going to lose territory, but they don't want to just have a, you know, like you said, like a one year pause in the fighting.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And then they get run over again.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On the other hand, that's more of a concern on the Russian side in the sense that Russia has the momentum and Russia has the resources. They don't actually need the pause as much as Ukraine would need the pause. So what is the face saving victory that Putin can get? He'll get all four of those territory. He seems to desperately want Zelensky gone and a pliable appliance, you know, basically Russian friendly regime put in power in Kyiv. And so maybe. So I assume that's where they go. Like if they do get this peace deal.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Then Russia's effort from there, from then on will be trying to take power.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. This strain of Russian nationalism that sees Kyiv as an essential part of the Russian nation, lowercase N is not going anywhere. Ukrainian nationalism is not going anywhere. And these borders, even if Russia takes extra territory by the end of the negotiations, are still borders.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And the country that the Ukraine that would be left would be kind of like the heartland of the far right Russian Ukrainian nationalists. So, yeah, its politics would get even further to the right, especially as, and we've talked about this before, like in the U.S. like, the more, the more. And in most countries, the more miserable things get, the more reactionary people get. If there's no kind of Bernie Sanders populism to channel that into. And with the amount of corruption in Ukraine, it's very. People don't have faith in somebody like that to be able to. That's why Zelensky, kind of, because he was a celebrity and like, was seen as outside the system, had the ability to capture the imagination. Also because he said he was going to make a peace deal.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Which he did not because he was pressured by the right so to not do it. So, yeah, it's very difficult to see how there's overlap.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's actually, I'm going to skip ahead an element because we were just talking about the Russian side of the negotiation. This is a four. So we can roll this VO of Sergei Lavrov who is saying basically this conflict has clear causes. Calling in an unprovoked Russian attack is childish babble. That's part of this translation. But Ryan, lots of predictable bluster coming from the Russian side right now. And that' syou know, there's nothing shocking about Lavrov saying what he said in that clip. But it's not like, I mean, I don't know, it feels like Trump is potentially in another loose suit with the football situation. I hope that's not the case. People stop dying. But to your point about the Russian motivations to actually wind things down. I don't know. This could very well all fizzle out in the next few days.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It could, but Putin has victory in front of him if he just says yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, it depends on what he does.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Trump is willing to give him the store at this point.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And then, yeah, then it becomes a question of what do these security guarantees look like?

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And Trump clearly like the idea that Trump would commit American troops to defend Ukrainian territory produced enough kind of fear and anxiety on the right that he had to kind of go on Fox and Friends to then walk it back. So there isn't much that the US can really do anyway because the American people don't want to do it.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, right. Yeah, that's exactly right. This is another Lavrov clip from RT who is saying, you cannot discuss Ukraine's security guarantees without Russia. He says that's, quote, pointless. So we'll see if Russia will be at the table with Ukraine in the days and weeks to come, because that is, again, what is on the table is a trilateral or even just a bilateral between Russia and Ukraine directly. So on that note, let's roll this clip of White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt responding to a question from the New York Times about this anecdote from the wild, extraordinary scenes at the White House on Monday that Donald Trump called Vladimir Putin while Western leaders were all gathered at the White House. This is a three.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The point is to get everybody on the same page. Why wouldn't Trump just take the call.

[Ryan Grim]

From Putin while the other leaders were in the room?

[Saagar Enjeti]

He said it would be disrespectful to do that. But why is it disrespectful?

[Caroline Levitt (White House Press Secretary)]

With all due respect, only a reporter from the New York Times would ask a question like that. Sean, the president met with all of these European leaders at the White House 48 hours after sitting down with President Putin on American soil. In fact, there was so much progress in the readout that was given to these European leaders immediately following his meeting with President Putin that every single one of them got on a plane 48 hours later and flew to the United States of America. These leaders, who this war is in their backyard, are very grateful that the president took that call and that he was there to provide them with a readout to of Russia's thinking on this.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I guess, Ryan, there's something to be said for Trump perhaps being the only major American politician that could actually bring Vladimir Putin to the table is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Zelensky at this point, if he can.

[Krystal Ball]

If he can, if he can do.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It won't say his name.

[Krystal Ball]

Zelensky. Yes. So if he could pull it off, I can't really envision anyone else having gotten them both to the same table.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And if he only way to do it is the way that the Times guy said, just be like, oh, by the way, Vlad's on speaker. Hey, Vlad, we're all here.

[Krystal Ball]

Say hi to my boy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, tell him what you told me because they persuaded me immediately. Then we have to remember that like Trump, the whole thing is just comical art of the deal. Like he goes in demanding a ceasefire out of this, his negotiation with Putin and comes out of it like, you know what, actually Putin's right. There shouldn't be a ceasefire. There should be a comprehensive peace deal. And the Europeans are wrong. And the Europeans were so appreciative of that that they, as Caroline Levitt says, they immediately hopped on a plane to fly to the United States to thank Trump for doing so wonderfully and to get more readouts from him. Yeah, they really appreciated that.

[Krystal Ball]

Lead story.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It wasn't panic.

[Krystal Ball]

Lead story on RT right now is US realistic about chances of Ukraine peace, Trump aid. And that is tagged to comments from Monica Crowley saying that the conflict between Moscow and Kyiv will not be settled overn. So there's some cold water for your Monday morning or your Wednesday morning. Feels like Monday morning peace hopes.

[Arab Barghouti]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The conversation with John Mearsheimer that Sager and I had on Saturday I thought was really instructive and people should go back and watch that if they want to understand the difference between the ceasefire and the comprehensive peace deal. It made me think of, and this is not a kind of moral analogy, but of the American Civil War. Like the south often wanted a ceasefire once the thing got started and the union started to roll and they even, you know, in the north they're running an anti war candidate. They would call themselves anti war cause they wanted to stop the war because the north was winning the war. And up in the north they were like, no, we're not doing a ceasefire. We want a comprehensive peace that involves a revolution here that is going to see emancipation and a reordering of American society. We're going to end this, we're going to free the slaves. We want a full on peace deal. Obviously Putin is not Abraham Lincoln, but he wants a complete reordering of Ukrainian society.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He doesn't want to just stop the fighting.

[Krystal Ball]

Not a brain A.

[Breaking Points Promo Announcer]

The reviews and ratings are in and Ice Cube's Big Three is the surprise hit of the summer. And to cap off the season. Iheart presents the Big Three basketball playoffs this Sunday at 3pm Eastern. The remaining four teams battle it out for the right to make the Big three championship in the most physical, fierce and competitive basketball league in the world. The action starts with the Big 3 Monster Energy Celebrity game where your favorite stars compete in Big 33 on 3 basketball. Then the first of two semifinal games features Dwight Howard and the LA Riot taking on Montrez Harrell and Dr. J's first place Chicago triplets. The finale will see popular Miami 305 with stars MVP Michael Beasley and Lance will make you Dan Stevenson take on Nancy Lieberman's Dallas power who finished the season winning five straight weeks to capture second place. Can Glen Rice, Greg Monroe and Paul Millsap stop Miami's physical assault? Or will Miami and Beasley put an end to Dallas winning ways? Who will make it to the big three championships? This no holds bought action starts Sunday at 3pm Eastern 12 Pacific only on.

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Krystal Ball]

Let'S move on to this leaked audio of Andrew Cuomo. This is, this is really something. So this is, we could put B1 on the screen. This is more, I guess, ammunition. So this is in this leaked audio from Andrew Cuomo in the Hamptons. He says we can minimize the Sliwa vote because he'll never be a serious candidate. And Trump himself as well as top Republicans will say the goal is to stop Mamdani and you'll be wasting your vote on Sliwa. So I feel good about that with the next quote. Let's put it this way. I knew the President very well. I believe there's a big change.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And he's asked right here, you know, is Trump gonna get involved? Cuz you spoke with him recently. Sorry, go ahead.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's helpful context. So I knew the president very well. I believe there's a big piece of him that actually wants redemption in New York. He feels that he was rejected by New York. We voted for Hillary Clinton. Bill de Blasio took his name off things. So I believe there will be opportunities to actually cooperate with him. I believe that he's not going to want to fight with me in New York if he can avoid it. So that quote makes its way into the New York Times. That was at a fundraiser, right? Like a Hamptons fundraiser.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think it scooped it first. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay. So it makes its way into the press. Now. You will not be surprised to learn that Zoram Hamdani is already capitalizing on that and using it to fuel his attack narrative on Cuomo that he's cooperating with Donald Trump. So Mamdani posted at another Hamptons fundraiser with Republican donors on Saturday. Andrew Cuomo said it plainly. He's expecting Trump's help to defeat us in November. I feel good about that. Cuomo said New Yorkers. So that is a pretty significant new weapon in the Madani arsenal against Andrew Cuomo. And I wonder, Ryan, if this makes Cuomo look SLOPPIER and sloppier in a way that hurts his candidacy, too. I don't know. I think I can see. I mean, I have a little bit of familiarity with the Republican donor class, and I can see them thinking this is actually really badass of Cuomo. Like he's just given it to the Dems and he's starting to really get it and be empathetic towards them. So maybe that even gives Cuomo more momentum with Republican donors who keep fueling him.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And these were Republican donors and not just any Republican donor. This is Inside Baseball for Breaking Points, viewers. This was at the home of Jimmy Finkelstein.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

In the Hamptons, who you may or may not know was the former wannabe oligarch owner of the Hill, which was the owner of Rising, which was always a very weird marriage. I think he hated that show, but.

[Krystal Ball]

He kind of loved that show, too, because he liked making money. Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He liked that the show had an audience. He did not like what the show was saying.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And then Finkelstein sold the Hill. Chris Linzager left before Finkelstein sold the Hill.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, he sold it to NewsNation.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Chris Cuomo, Nexstar. Right. Right. Nextar, which owns News Nation and a whole bunch of local news networks for 100 plus 200 plus million dollars. He then started another news organization here in D.C. that went belly up already. I don't even remember its name. I don't even remember Notice, Right?

[Krystal Ball]

No, it wasn't noticed, but they were offering people, like, $500,000 salaries. I mean, not quite, but it lasted like four months. Yeah, maybe not even.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But he has enough money that he still has a Hamptons home and was able to have Mom, Donnie, not Mamdani, able to have Cuomo over. And yes, I think your point is very good.

[Krystal Ball]

And it's like Jimmy is, my understanding, not just a Republican donor. He's one of those people who's both. Right. He's one of those people who sure, like, probably my guess would be close with Trump.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He's like a guy that Trump will take his phone calls.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He likes Manchin. Sure. They all love Manchin. What's not to love about Manchin if you're him? But yes, he's tight with Trump, Republican donor. But I think your point is right. So Cuomo's argument is, okay, you like his ideas and you like him. You don't like me or my ideas, but I don't have any ideas. What I have is I'm good at government I'm competent. I've done this before. It's a big, sprawling bureaucracy. You need a tough guy like me to be able to run this thing. The guy can't run his own campaign. It completely undermines the only argument that he has for why he should be mayor.

[Krystal Ball]

Right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, if Mamdani is better at campaigning than you are, and you've been campaigning your entire life, since you were a child, campaigning for your father, then why should we believe that he's not also going to be just more competent? Forget the ideas. But, like, if you. If you were judging the level of competence between Cuomo and Mamdani, and all you have to go on is the campaign or Cuomo's career, but forget. Put that aside. Is the campaign. He'd be like, mom, Donnie knows what he's doing and you don't. I am not a political genius. I could tell you that tying yourself to Donald Trump in the New York mayoral election might not be the best strategy. And also, when you go to the Hamptons, somebody's recording that. Who do you think's serving your drinks?

[Krystal Ball]

The entire Hamptons is just being live streamed, of course, into someone's.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's like eight reality shows. There were probably two reality TV camera crew, Cruz, at that fundraiser.

[Krystal Ball]

They were there. Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That'll be a year from now until we get that footage, but I'd love.

[Krystal Ball]

To see that footage. I have a slightly different take on the Mamdani Trump strategy. Tying Cuomo to Trump. I just don't think that's the most powerful weapon against Cuomo. There are a million other ways to attack Cuomo, but tying him to a brash, populist New Yorker is like, probably. It's not a slam dunk. There are a lot of people who are basically.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think you underestimate the hostility to Trump on a visceral level.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I definitely know that's very, very real, but I guess I also just think he's running a kitchen table election. You know what I mean? Like, that's. His candidacy is a kitchen. It's very much like a kitchen table candidacy, not a resistance culture war candidacy. And so there's so many easy, easy attacks on Cuomo, and he makes them. It's not like he's. It's not like it's a zero sum game. Like, you can do both at the same time. I just. He's. He seems very eager with the strategy, and maybe there's testing and all kinds of stuff, focus groups. But I also just think New York is very pragmatic. City that's like twice elected Republican mayors. And memory, like recent memory. So I don't know. General election in New York City is a weird thing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's true. They have elected some Republican mayors.

[Krystal Ball]

Cuomo. In that audio, Cuomo was saying, like, they took Trump, de Blasio took Trump's names off buildings. He's kind of implying that Donald Trump might give New York all kinds of goodies if we just put his name back on stuff. And that's true. That's absolutely true. We all know that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I also took from that. That it was sort of a readout of his call with Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That that list of grievances was the thing were the things that Trump was complaining about to him, Hillary de Blasio. I mean, you can just hear Trump complaining about de Blasio to Cuomo. And also because that is a thing. Like nobody hates de Blasio more than Cuomo.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like they were at war every day, all day, to a degree that really harmed the state. And the city became extraordinarily childish. And so Trump would have loved to fuel into that.

[Krystal Ball]

So I think where this gets more actually more powerful, that very attack is if it's can start to look sort of like a secret plot. And that might be why Mamdani is latching onto it, because that is a really powerful narrative. It looks like there's a secret Republican plot to install Andrew Cuomo, quote, Democrat, as mayor of New York City. And this is where yesterday, Mamdani got another giant gift in the form of a man named Jason Levine or Levin. I'm not sure how that one's pronounced, but I'm just going to read a rundown here from Politico. We can probably put these, these memes up. This is B2 on the screen. So Jason Levin posts on X. I'm making memes for the mayor. Yes, Actually, I made a meme for Andrew cuomo that hit 5 million plus views tonight. I met with Cuomo on his team to talk about marketing strategy. Here's how I plan to save NYC with memes alone. If you are listening to this, I can't describe to you how bad that meme is. If you're watching this, you see it. I don't even need to describe how bad that meme is, but he's boasting about his brilliant meme game and basically like Boomer level, although some boomers are incredible meme lords, but he's boasting about some pretty, pretty weak sauce. Ren.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And he is pointing to the 5 million views which that's a reference to what used to be Twitter.

[Krystal Ball]

Now, X. Elon's numbers.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Those are Elon's numbers. This is not a flex, but anybody out there watching this can probably remember in the last week you probably had a post that got a 5M on there.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, allegedly.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right, Right. It's like, that's not serious. That's 4.9 million people who scrolled right past it and 99,000 bots and then a thousand friends of like, Cuomo and Cuomo supporters who like, clicked on it on Facebook or something.

[Krystal Ball]

So then over to Politico. Cuomo, apparently. I don't know if it was at that Hamptons fundraiser we were just talking about with the leaked audio or another one. There are many Hamptons fundraisers for Cuomo. I assume every weekend you can probably. You might have to Change your outfit 10 times that you're not repeating it and you can hit the circuit and look good. But at another fundraiser, he was shouting at his social media team and Politico writes, the team did a stupid thing. The Cuomo campaign is scrambling to distance themselves from self proclaimed meme lord Jason Levin after he proudly boasted on X late Monday about making a meme the Cuomo campaign posted and his his plan to do more. The problem for Cuomo, Politico continues, is that Levin's online Persona is that of a provocative MAGA booster proudly proclaiming he voted for Trump last year. This is one of his posts. I'm a proud Jew who voted for Hitler. All caps over a photo of Trump in a yarmulke. Calling him Hitler was meant as a sarcastic criticism of liberals who do the same. As Politico helpfully explains for us, Levin didn't respond to requests for comment, but he is, quote, not paid by the campaign. He suggested one meme to someone on that team. Cuomo spokesperson Rich Azaparti told Playbook, Hatred, bigotry, misogyny, and anything like that has no place in this race. Misogyny has no place in the Cuomo race. This is shocking information. Okay, we have more memes to look at though, so let's go through B3 here. Great stuff. Which union you going after? Teachers, firemen, goes down the whole list. It's union busting time, baby.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, this is him quote, tweeting a Paul Graham 2015 post that said any industry that still has unions has potential energy that could be released by startups. And yeah, so this guy Levin quote, tweets that and says, it's union busting time, baby. So this is Cuomo's Meme Lord goes back to the competence question we were talking about earlier. Totally. Mamdani does not do this kind of thing.

[Krystal Ball]

He's making the competence argument as a guy who face planted in an easy slam dunk race against a 33 year old state senator and then also has MAGA memelords writing for him, audio leaking the Hamptons talking about how he is cozy with Donald Trump. Let's put also we can keep going through some of these. Like this is Good evening Brian Johnson. How many carrots do I have to eat for my eyesight to be good enough to see through women's clothing? This guy's got to come on board the Breaking Points team and do some social media for us. Just great stuff. Next one we can take a look at. I think this is the last one. People were just digging through this guy's entire social media history. Okay, maybe this was the last one. But he is, I would actually say probably a great fit for the Cuomo campaign.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sure, bring him on.

[Krystal Ball]

They can distance themselves from him, but the fact of the matter is he says he met with Cuomo and his team to talk about marketing strategy and posted a picture of himself with Andrew Cuomo. So the Cuomo campaign can say he suggested a meme to us. But anyone can suggest a meme to the Cuomo campaign and probably some people do. Once every couple days on X when people are there talking about Andrew Cuomo as infrequently as they do in a positive light and say, hey sir, we'd love you to use this meme in your campaign. They don't listen to anybody. Obviously they were talking to this guy and hadn't thoroughly vetted him. So on that note, let's bring in Chris Cuomo. The one and only Chris Cuomo. Speaking of the Jimmy Finkelstein Next Star Cuomo Nexus, this is Chris Cuomo, just as his brother is running as a Democrat for mayor of New York City, saying, the Democrats suck.

[Ryan Grim]

My brother's a Democrat. I don't know why, but he is. My father was a Democrat. I know exactly why he was. But his party doesn't exist anymore. Now it's the left arguing for a cultural elite. This is how you will talk about people, Benny. This is how you will raise your kids. This is what you will tell them is okay. This is what you will say and not say. And the Republicans are this system sucks. All the little people are getting squashed. These elites are killing us. Anti everything. They flipped the idea of going to socialism. Not socialistic, yes, public yes, entitlements. Yes, there are socialistic aspects to our constitutional republic within a capitalistic model that work. They work for the collective. That's what we do. But it's a capitalistic society. No Democrat ever argued for anything else. No Democrat would have argued for open borders. None of this. My father would have done none of this today. It's all provocative bullshit all the time. No responsibility, no accountability.

[Krystal Ball]

So that was Cuomo talking to Benny Johnson, which is amusing in and of itself. But Ryan just final point on all of this is Cuomo was just making a much better pitch for his brother's campaign than his brother ever does. Because as a politician, his brother is not out there talking about how, as Cuomo says, populist Republicans are. The system is broken, the system sucks, and it's rigged for elites. That is absolutely not the Cuomo campaign. I mean, he can try, but. But the style only goes so far. Trying to position yourself as this populist champion of the working class is insane when everybody knows it doesn't go to the substance at all. So good luck.

[Big Three Basketball Promo Announcer]

The reviews and ratings are in and Ice Cube's Big Three is the surprise hit of the summer. And to cap off the season, iHeart presents the Big 3 basketball championship and 8th annual Big 3 All Star game game this coming Sunday, August 24th. Live from Orlando. The remaining two teams fight it out for the Big 3 championship Dr. Jake Trophy in the most physical, fierce and competitive basketball league in the world. Don't miss the wild conclusion of Big Three's eighth and most historic season ever. This is the game no one wants to lose and there's no crying in the Big Three. The action starts with the Big Three eighth Annual All Star Game. Don't miss All Stars Dwight Howard, Montrez Harron, MVP Michael Beasley, Lance will make you Dan Stevenson, Jordan Crawford, Greg Monroe, Earl Clark, Nazir Kor and more show you why they are the best three on three basketball players in the world. Big Three's exciting all star game plus the crowning of a new Big Three champion. The no holds part action starts Sunday at 2pm Eastern, 11 Pacific only on.

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[Krystal Ball]

Well, after all of these years, MSNBC, Microsoft, NBC is changing its name. Let's go ahead and take a look at this graphic announced just a couple of days ago. MSNBC by the end of the year is going to become Ms. Now, which stands for My Source News Opinion World. Ryan that is a beautiful poem. My Source News Opinion World, Mississippi. Now, as part of this rebranding effort, or as they were discussing this rebranding effort, we have to roll this clip of the conversation on Morning Joe where they frame it as part of MSNBC embracing its identity as these are actual words used in the segment. An insurgent independent network. Take a look.

[Ryan Grim]

This shows we're independent and what I've said on this show time and time again is you look at the people that are running the company. They're entrepreneurial like we want you to come up with new ideas. We want you to push the boundaries. I'm excited about that. So I'm excited about this, too. It's like, you know, what's in a name? Well, whatever you put into the name. Despite my sentimentality about the Peacock, I've always loved the Peacock. The truth is I've always thought about this network and CNBC and USA and actually all of those assets as insurgent networks.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

This is an insurgent network. And I love the idea, to be honest with you. You can take out your salt shaker or whatever you want to do and say, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But I like this because I think it actually does have the sort of independence and actually gets away in some ways from even the idea of legacy media. We are moving. We're. We're moving a direction beyond corporate media. And again, I think this fits. It fits. It's a new marketplace. Are we going to be like Eastman kodak throughout the 1980s and 90s, or are we going to be like Nvidia and look at a brave new world? And I think this actually helps us do that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The media landscape has been changing a lot over the last decade or so, but it's been really accelerating the last few years in this particular moment. So it does seem an ideal time to rebrand. An ideal time to embrace a new identity, as you said, to be an insurgent network.

[Ryan Grim]

Msn, by the way, it's also a line in the sand, just about the future. And the truth is that this network, originally, the Ms. Was Microsoft. Microsoft.

[Breaking Points Promo Announcer]

No, it is not.

[Ryan Grim]

For a very long time, there has been a rebrand, I would argue, almost in order.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Arab Barghouti]

What do you think?

[Krystal Ball]

I think it's good. Slight smile.

[Ryan Grim]

You're just saying that. You're just saying that.

[Krystal Ball]

No, I think it's good. We know for a fact that people get their news, a lot of it from YouTube and TikTok. So if your biggest news, you know, if you're the biggest news network out there, that's a big deal.

[Ryan Grim]

We've always say Ms.

[Arab Barghouti]

Anyway.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, right.

[Ryan Grim]

Ms. And then the truth is, now is what this is all about, right?

[Krystal Ball]

As promised, that is MSNBC referring to their future as Ms. Now, as getting away from corporate media, being more independent and insurgent. But, but, but you will be surprised to learn that as part of the spinoff from NBC Universal, Comcast, this new company that does include msnbc, also includes C, cnbc, usa, Oxygen, E, Syfy, and the Golf Channel, it's still going to Be part of a publicly traded company, of course, called Versant, which made this MSNBC, Ms. now announcement, I think it was on Monday, formally. So, Ryan, they are trying very hard to brand themselves 10 years too late as the future of media. Non corporate independent insurgent. That is obviously laughable, but they're at least getting this first part correct, that it's where the winds are shifting.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes. New York Times calls itself independent media.

[Krystal Ball]

Amazing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And has for quite some time, actually. And in the sense that they are not owned by a higher corporation, they are actually independent. Like the New York Times is publicly traded company that owns the New York Times. So in that sense they're. They're independent, but they're a major corporation with a board. Yeah. And in some ways the Times. I would give more credence to that to the Times calling themselves independent than Ms. Now because the Times does rely pretty heavily now on its subscriber base. And so just like we do. And then they have corporate advertising on top of that. Whereas this msnow is basically just all corporate advertising and cable revenue. They have subscribers in the sense that people pay cable. And then it goes from them, it goes through the cable company to Ms. Now. But there's nobody who's every month or every year saying, I support this independent media.

[Krystal Ball]

So the board of directors for Versant is the former CEO of Yum Brands. So this is former chairman of international content and operations at Walt Disney.

[Arab Barghouti]

Former.

[Krystal Ball]

CEO of Starbucks North America, former president of Samsung. It's all kinds of people from the corporate world. Actually, the New York Times board of directors is not entirely dissimilar from that. But to say that, that you're moving away from corporate media as a corporation with a board full of corporate media.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Maybe they're.

[Krystal Ball]

It was so funny.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Maybe they're independent corporate media.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, independent corporate media. That's the new thing. That's like. I think the third way guy met. Bennett said that what Democrats need right now is a combative centrist. He told Axios that yesterday. So independent corporate media is the new oxymoron of the decade.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it is fair to say that CNN and MSNBC have a YouTube audience. Like when they put their clips out there.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They will do well.

[Krystal Ball]

No, that's a good point.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If they were just in the podcast world, they'd be hanging tough.

[Krystal Ball]

They're entering the space with a massive head start, we'll put it that way.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes. Because they have huge windows in their sales.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah. They have decades plus long of.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And they have famous people and famous People are good for the algorithm.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. They have built in followers. Yes, of course. So it's not like they're going anywhere, but. Yeah. They're obviously realizing 10 too late where the winds are blowing economically. But also then how that affects the public's appetite for content in a low institutional trust environment.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How they handle austerity will be interesting because msnbc, because of the cable revenue for a very long time, had just extraordinary amounts of money because cable was just shedding money and just showering it on CNN. MSNBC. I was a contributor back in 2013, 14, 15.

[Krystal Ball]

Amazing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And they started out paying me $50,000 a year just to. I was like, are you kidding me? $50,000 for what? They were like, just come on there. When.

[Krystal Ball]

Whenever we ask.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Whenever we ask. And the next year they bumped it to 60, like that's it. Like a couple minutes a day at most. And. And I was one of the many dozens of people that they're just throwing that money to.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And so what that what their world looks like after that, after they can do that is a different question. Because like, you know, Scarborough over there, if they're throwing 60 grand at me to do nothing, you know, they're throwing.

[Krystal Ball]

Millions at him, of course.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And. And that can only keep going because of the cable grift.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. It's why CNN has hemorrhaged people like Don Lemon who are super expensive and aren't at all worth what you're paying them. It's interesting to think about what Anderson Cooper's features like with cnn. CNN has already been doing significant downsizing. Now bear in mind, to Ryan's point, some of these networks actually have huge website traffic. Are some of the big news networks news websites in the world? So CNN is one of the top trafficked website, period, whether you're even talking about news or websites. So we think about their TV ratings going down while MSNBC is losing that connection to NBC. So we'll see what happens. They don't have their guys on the Today show and whatever else going forward and the website synergy, but they are obviously entering this with a huge head start. The final point that I just wanted to make is it reminds me, I wrote about this today, actually, that it reminds me so much of Cuomo. In a weird way, this is the connection between these two blocs, Cuomo and the combative centrist model. It's funny because Gavin Newsom too, they're co opting the style of combativeness, but it's not going to. We know whether you're talking about a cable network affect the content. And with Gavin Newsom, it's not or Andrew Cuomo going to suddenly mean they are actual populist champions in substance. They are not going to start saying like Bernie Sanders does or reflecting in their policy platforms that the system is rigged, that the entire system is rotten and corrupt to its core. Dude, I can start hearing that on MSNBC or in the Cuomo campaign events.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But that's what the public wants. You might want when they cut Scarborough's pay.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Then he's gonna be like, it's over. Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

All right, well, Congressman Ro Khanna is here, so let's go ahead and bring him in.

[Big Three Basketball Promo Announcer]

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[Krystal Ball]

It'S August recess, but Congressman Ro Khanna who joins us now is not giving up the fight for more details and disclosures in the case of Jeffrey Epstein. Congressman, thank you for being here. Here.

[Ryan Grim]

Thanks for having me back on.

[Krystal Ball]

Of course. Now we have covered your legislative effort with Republican Congressman Thomas Massie. Can you please give us an update on where this bill stands? Because obviously it's recessed right now. But there's all kinds of legislative maneuvers that have happened, been happening behind the scenes to avoid Republicans having to vote on this bill. Catch us up to speed.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, as you remember, they shut down Congress a week early to prevent a vote on Massie and my bill. Well, the good news is we have all 212 Democrats who are ready to sign a discharge petition, meaning it can force the vote. And we have an 11 Republicans, including people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert who are saying we need to have a vote on this. So when we come back September 3rd, we're going to put the discharge petition out. I hope within 24 hours. We get every Democrat, we get the Republicans, we force a vote. One other quick point. September 3rd we have a press conference in front of the Capitol with victims of the Epstein Abuse. They're coming in from around the country, first time. Many of them are speaking out. So that is going to up the urgency of the full disclosure.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely.

[Saagar Enjeti]

What I never understood is why they cared that much since the Senate would also have to pass it. I get why they don't want the legislation to be enacted. I get why they don't want to release information about. About what happened. But what are they so scared of it just passing the House?

[Ryan Grim]

Have you had a Donald Trump tweet at you, Ryan?

[Krystal Ball]

No, that's exactly it.

[Ryan Grim]

You know, they live in fear of that Donald Trump truth Social Post. Look at what's happening to Thomas Massie is really, frankly, a profile in courage on this. He's had millions of dollars already spent against him. Donald Trump has taken the team that won his presidency and put all of them against Massie on a primary challenge. So there is no defiance. In fact, they came up with this resolution that had no teeth to try to give the Rules Committee an opportunity to vote on it, and they didn't even want to bring that a toothless resolution to the floor for fear of offending Donald Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

We actually have a video of some victims talking about their experiences. We can go Ahead and Rule C1.

[Commercial Announcer]

It actually makes me sick that she is claiming to be a victim or have any form of innocence. This is the same woman that grabbed my arm and forced me into a room to be raped by Jeffrey. It was brutal. And I remember limping from Jeffrey's bedroom to the bungalow where the survivors slept. And I remember looking at Ghislaine and she had this evil smirk on her face. She knew by forcing me into Jeffrey's room that I was there to be raped. And she enjoyed it. She participated. She tortured me and others. And she's worse than Jeffrey. She broke the sisterhood. She broke that bond. She was supposed to be a protector and nurturer and she failed us.

[Krystal Ball]

So that also involves Ghislaine Maxwell, obviously, who we still, to my knowledge at least, and maybe you know more about this, Congressman. We don't have an explanation for why she was suddenly moved to Club Fett in Austin or whether or not that is an appropriate use of federal resources, moving Ghislaine Maxwell to a lower security prison. Now, you said that you were having a press conference planned for September 3rd to push for the discharge position and the vote on the bill that you're championing with Thomas Massie. Have you been talking in contact with the victims? Can you tell us about maybe you've gotten to know some of them and where they stand on whether or not more disclosures is warranted in this case, because that is one of the central tenets of the administration's position right now. Their stance is that we have documents that we've looked through for months. But Pam Bondi said we also have things that would damage the victims if we exposed them to the public, which I think everybody understands is probably true. But that's not the excuse for keeping everything secret. So tell us about that.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, it's just heartbreaking what's happened to the victims. And frankly, they have not been centered in this entire story. Even when Epstein got there, that light sentence. Their voices haven't been considered. Their voices haven't been considered with Maxwell.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. They weren't told about the plea deal.

[Ryan Grim]

They weren't trolled about the plea deal. They have never been consulted. They've not been. Their lawyer hasn't been consulted on what should be released. I mean, if they're really concerned about the victims, wouldn't you pick up the phone and talk to the victim's lawyer? I have not talked directly to the victims, but I've talked to their attorneys and a respect for the victims. And I'll tell you that the victims, based on the attorneys, are going to say that what they want is full disclosure, that this is what is needed for justice and closure. Of course they want the victim's identity protected and they want any sensational sort of information about particular private acts not in there, but they want full disclosure for foreclosure. And that's really what we should be centering this back on, the victims.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I feel like I'm going crazy here because for years the kind of Republican subcultural reason to be was fighting against child sex trafficking.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it feels like the White House should have one of those signs that says like, you know, number of days since they covered up a child sex abuse ring and they'd have to wipe it back down to zero because of this Las Vegas scandal, which, you know, I'm sure you've followed it a little bit. Tom Alexandrovich, a top cyber official with Israel, is in Las Vegas, lures what he thinks is a 15 year old to some type of rendezvous and is then arrested because it wasn't, you know, it was a federal and local sting and then immediately is like shuttled back to Israel. I haven't actually seen. I've seen Marjorie Taylor Greene jumping on that. I've seen a lot of the kind of MAGA world types who made a lot of their bones about, you know, opposition to that type of trafficking, but I haven't seen Democrats kind of seize on it.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it seems like they're. They've kind of, maybe it's August, they're at the beach or they're heading to Israel, literally.

[Ryan Grim]

Can you see that photo?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

I mean, they adjourned Congress because they didn't want to vote for the Epstein files. And then what do they do? They go and all pay homage to Netanyahu. I'm familiar with the case. I haven't focused on the details. I do think we need to speak out. My focus has been on Epstein because this is an area where we can actually make progress. The Justice Department has started to release some files to the Oversight Committee based on the subpoena. But so far is basically things already public. It's really going to take a House vote to force it. And this is a place the first time I would argue that you've seen a split in the MAGA base. I mean, you have people like Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tim Burchard, even Comer saying, we've got to release this because it goes to what they were fighting for. They said, look, the government is corrupt. The government is protecting the rich and powerful. The government is protecting pedophiles. We're going to stand up with this. And now Donald Trump's not doing it. It's a fundamental betrayal to the MAGA base.

[Krystal Ball]

And how far do you think those folks you just mentioned? Because I know you're talking to them and you have worked on this bill with Congressman Massie. We all know Congressman Massie is willing to push this one as far as he possibly can. But sort of these others in MAGA world, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Tim Burchett, how far do you think they're willing to go to upset the administration and the president? Because I can imagine press conference at September 3rd. The victims are speaking outside of the Capitol, and the discharge position is an immediate, urgent question on the table. Some people might get cold feet. Do you think that's the case? How far are they willing to go?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, you've put your finger right on the central question. I mean, yes, we have 11 Republicans who are supporting it. We have even more who've spoken out for it. But whether they're going to sign that discharge petition, and we won't know until it happens. Now, Thomas Massie and I are confident, based on private conversations, that they will. But there is going to be a huge amount of pressure by the president, the vice president, the White House to say, don't sign this discharge petition, and we'll see. And that's one of the reasons we have the victims coming. It's a big deal. They're flying in from around the country. Many of them have never spoken out before. You can imagine having to relive that trauma and to do it in the spotlight right in front of the Capitol. And they're doing it because they want this vote to take place.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Has being out in front on this given you any more insight into what's actually going on? Like, have you heard from people at the FBI or the intelligence agencies or anywhere, either officially or informally? Like, have you picked up anything new that you can share with us?

[Ryan Grim]

I have picked up things from the victims and the victim's lawyers, and we've even subpoenaed as a result of Epstein's estate, where some of these documents are likely there and their alternatives. One of the things I have picked up, people say, well, how will we know if the Trump administration is actually going to release it and be transparent? And without getting into who said this, some people have said there are a lot of career folks who have seen these documents. So if people play games with it, you're going to have whistleblowers, you're going to have enough career folks. Folks will come out and say, this isn't the full story.

[Krystal Ball]

And you mentioned all Democrats are on board with the bill and you've been consistent. Some of your colleagues have not. So what's your sense of why some Democrats were for a while either just not super interested in talking about the story, sometimes dismissing it as like, QAnon fever swamps? Is it because the Clinton implications, other major Democratic donors. What's your sense of why people on the left were uncomfortable? I shouldn't say on the left, but in the Democratic Party were uncomfortable previously with the story?

[Ryan Grim]

I think our party can sometimes be culturally out of touch. So some people said, oh, it's a distraction. First of all, if voters are telling you they care about something, it's usually a good idea to say we should care about that issue. You know, I have my issues that I deeply care about, economic patriotism. But if I came on this program and tried to move the question every time and say economic patriotism as opposed to answering the question, you'd say, well, I don't want this person back again. So partly we're not listening. Partly the populist sentiment is not fully clear in people who've been in Congress 10, 20, 30 years. They don't like us. They don't Trust us, they don't trust these institutions. And before we can do Medicare for All, before we can do shoring on Medicaid, we've got to tell people that they can trust government. And so I think that the folks have been there a long time. They just don't understand how much of a breakdown of trust there is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

By the way, when we spoke yesterday, you said you were reaching out to Catherine Clark to see if she would join your two state or your recognizing Palestine letter.

[Ryan Grim]

You hear back, like, I'm waiting to hear, waiting to hear. I'm hoping, you know, we had big news and J Street has endorsed the letter. I'm going to be doing a conversation with them this afternoon. And you know, but did you see Netanyahu's comments against the Australian prime minister? I mean, calling, saying he's betrayed Israel. The person who's betrayed Israel is Netanyahu and he's out there lashing out against any leader basically who is, who's doing the bare minimum, which is recognizing a Palestinian state. I saw your earlier interview and the person was absolutely right. Right now we have to stop the bombing, stop the killing. The recognition is just table stakes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, Dan, that's a good plug for that interview. We spoke with Arab Barghouti, Marwan Barghouti's son. And his life story just tells the entire story. He had the support of Hamas for a. He said we should not attack civilians. I want a two state solution on the 67 border. Bring all the factions together. And you know, there's huge elements within Hamas that don't support all of that. But as, but collectively they're like, all right, you know what? Barghouti's the most popular politician in Palestine. He represents the will of the Palestinian people. We're behind him and the solution has been to jail him and torture him for 20 years.

[Krystal Ball]

Last question, Congressman. Marjorie Taylor Greene actually was on Megyn Kelly's podcast yesterday talking about aipac. And that's a sort of, I think Glenn Greenwald pointed out, just a remarkable turn of events in and of itself. Marjorie Taylor Greene's on this bill, you mentioned that you have 11 Republicans on for Epstein disclosures. Have you ever seen anything like what's happened over the last couple of months, particularly on the question of Israel, which obviously has connections to the question of Epstein. Does it feel to you as a member of Congress like something is shifting when it comes to support for Israel? Obviously, Alyssa Slotkin had a ultraviral moment on this show with Kristalln Sager a couple of weeks ago where even she seemed sort of eager to make the point that she was upset with Israel, which was interesting. So do you feel like there's a significant shift happening?

[Ryan Grim]

It's been a tectonic shift over the last month, month and a half. You know, I was, of course, I had voted against the funding along with about 40 other Democratic members in April of 2024. I was out in the forefront saying Kamala Harris needs to change her Gaza policy or we're gonna lose the election. And I had called for a Palestinian speaker at the dnc. And I would say I was on the not, not the fringe, but certainly on the very left of the party on that. I now actually feel that this last month because of the starvation a man made. Starvation. You've had even moderates, people like Jeanne Shaheen, people like Ruben Gallego saying it's position is changing suddenly have a very different approach. And this shift is remarkable. And you have, you know, AIPAC is attacking me. I don't know how they choose the people they attack, but I'm partly in a group with Bernie Sanders and a few others and they put something out every day. And I said, well, the only person I'd rather be attacked by is right now is Netanyahu. So, so, you know, they're not, I think they're just out of touch.

[Krystal Ball]

Fascinating. Well, Ro, Khanna, as always, thank you so much for being here.

[Ryan Grim]

Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

While President Trump has ruled out boots on the ground in Ukraine, he hasn't done it when it comes to Venezuela now. Things got a little bit scary when the State Department put out what they said was a $50 million reward for a man they said is a fugitive narco trafficker. But when people looked at the name, they're like, wait a minute, I know that guy. He's the president of Venezuela. He's in Caracas. Can I have my $50 million now, please.

[Krystal Ball]

Easiest 50 million.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Then you see news starts to break that there are secret plans to ramp up pressure against Venezuela, and you start to wonder, wait a minute, is this. Are we. We going to do another coup in Venezuela? Is that what's going on here? Caroline Levitt asked about whether or not the Trump administration is now talking about actual kinetic war with Venezuela. Boots on the ground, and notice that she does not say no here.

[Krystal Ball]

The three US warships that are being.

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Sent to Venezuela, and there's 4,000 marines on board. Are you looking at the possibility of.

[Commercial Announcer]

Boots on the ground there?

[Caroline Levitt (White House Press Secretary)]

Miss, What I will say with respect to Venezuela, President Trump has been very clear and consistent. He's prepared to use every element of American power to stop drugs from flooding into our country and to bring those responsible to justice. The Maduro regime is not the legitimate government of Venezuela. It is a narco terror cartel. And Maduro, it is the view of this administration, is not a legitimate president. He is a fugitive head of this cartel who has been indicted in the United States for trafficking drugs into the country.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So this is sort of like a new gloss on the old regime change effort that has been brewing out of Miami since the. Since the 1960s when the Cuban Revolution led to an outflowing of Cubans into Miami. They have been trying to overthrow governments around our hemisphere and using their power, using their influence in the US Government to try to do that. Before that even, yes, really ramps up after Castro. But now they're saying it's actually because of drug trafficking. The irony being, of course, the Latin American right is as involved in drug trafficking as the Latin American left, if not more so and certainly historically more so.

[Krystal Ball]

I was gonna say, you don't even have to say the Latin American right. You could actually just say the American right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And so now the argument that Trump apparently is making is that we need to overthrow the Venezuelan government because of drugs. Like, how's it. Like, is this an attempt to shoehorn it somehow into America first? Because, like, nobody voted for a war with Venezuela.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't know a single person other than. Actually some of my. Maybe some of my family in Southern Florida who are Cubans. They would love to see a war down in Venezuela. And a lot of them are American citizens, but that doesn't quite count as America first. No sense, guys.

[Krystal Ball]

There are plenty of Venezuelans who would love America to fuel a coup.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, the right wing Venezuelans in South.

[Krystal Ball]

Florida or the right wing Venezuelans in Venezuela would love to have the United States fuel a coup and provide the kind of rocket fuel for a coup against.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And we've been doing that on and off for a very long time.

[Krystal Ball]

And this is fundamentally what was supposed to be the distinction between the old Republican Party and the new Republican Party. This is the distinction between America first and America Last, as Republicans now refer to the neoconservatives, is that even wars waged for what you considered a just cause against, for example, a legitimate dictator, are no longer America's business if it is not in the vital strategic interest of the United States, if Americans themselves are not immediately, urgently directly affected by this conflict. And that's supposed to be the distinction between America first and America Last, that precisely the animating principle of the Cold War, which then morphed into the George W. Bush second inaugural speech about how it is in America's interest to promote democracy everywhere. This is exactly what America first is supposed to oppose, all of those or that entire ideological strain. And so, yes, I think the narco part of this is how you shoehorn it, both ideologically for somebody like Marco Rubio who has and many others on the right who have sincerely reconsidered their prior commitments to democracy promotion abroad. Marco Rubio obviously was a supporter of USAID before he became this bitter enemy of usaid. And an impassioned like, whatever you think of the guy, I could just tell you, having covered him for a long time, he has come to bitterly detest institutions like usaid. That is a sincere transformation. But you can more easily sort of justify this. Anti communist neoconservatism or hemispheric strategy is what they would say, A because it's in your hemisphere, it's not in the Middle East. B, because you could say this is narco terrorism that comes up to the United States. And so yes, that's how you end up with also D4 battle plans for Mexico. This is a Rolling Stone Report headline. Team Trump is actually drawing up attack plans for Mexico. And I bet you Team Trump loves this headline and is actually not running from this headline at all. Trump is eager to breach Mexico's sovereignty to attack cartels. Officials say just don't call it an invasion. That is the subheading on the Rolling Stone piece. So that is exactly how you make this argument fall under the banner of America First. And it's not going to fly with a lot of people, but those are people who are mostly like professional grassroots America first activists.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Here's my theory and you as a right wing observer, tell me if I'm seeing this accurately. Trump, I think, does get animated by this whole thing where he's going to go after the cartels in Mexico.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He's talked about that a bunch.

[Krystal Ball]

Strikes. Yep.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So Rubio has never met a non right wing regime in our hemisphere that he hasn't wanted to overthrow.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And so Rubio sees Trump saying, oh, I'm gonna get the cartels in Mexico, and then says to himself, oh, I'm going to then link Maduro to cartels and then I'm going to piggyback what I really want to do, which is overthrow the regime in Venezuela. I'm going to piggyback it onto this Mexican thing. And the reason I think we can tell that this is clearly a Rubio policy. It's not just that. It's wildly obvious he's head of the State Department who's wanted to do this kind of thing his entire life. But at the very beginning of the administration, if you remember, Rick Grinnell was special envoy inside State Department kind of roving around the world, was able to free some Americans who were held as political prisoners in Venezuela. He then was on track to free a whole bunch more in a deal that would have involved some sort of like lifting of sanctions on Citgo, which has an America first element to it that is quite obvious because. Because Americans, as far as I understand, prefer gas prices to be lower than higher. And it's also a like, let's put this Cold War stuff behind us. We've tried to overthrow you a whole bunch of times. It hasn't worked. We don't think that the elections that you held were free and fair. But we're not about messing with the internal politics of countries anymore. You're in power. So let's come to a deal. Rubio steps in and gets crosswise with Grinnell and ends up getting a political prisoner deal that gets some Americans and some legal residents, interestingly, including a guy who killed three people in Spain, gets them out of Venezuela, brings them back to the United States in exchange for the Venezuelans that we had sent to Sicot in El Salvador are getting patriotd over to Venezuela. So his hardline effort that doesn't do anything about gas prices or Citgo or normalizing relations with a government in our backyard. That one triumphs. Then you get this $50 million bounty on Maduro's head. Then you get this drawing up secret orders to do regime change. And then you get these 4,000 Marines and a nuclear power flotilla headed to Venezuela to Saber Rattle there, which.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, and we have that VO or yeah, we have that VO we can roll. This is D1. This is the military. This is the Venezuelan military prep in response to the announcement.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think part of this also has to do with Rubio being boxed out from everything else. Like Witkoff is running the Gaza file, Trump is based in Wittkoffer running the Ukraine file, although now he's tasked what JD Vance and Rubio with taking Russia, Ukraine over the finish line. Rubio doesn't seem terribly engaged with Asia.

[Krystal Ball]

Yep.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Rubio really cares about the politics of the Caribbean and South and Central America.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I think that's, I mean, yeah. So what people were just watching on their screen is according to reports, the Venezuelan government has mobilized just in the last couple of days, quote, more than 4 million militia troops, seemingly in response to reports of US naval movements in the region. So that is from Time magazine. Maduro said, we defend our seas, our skies and our lands. We liberated them, we guard and patrol them. No empire will touch the sacred soil of Venezuela, nor should it touch the sacred soil of South America. So, yeah, those three U.S. navy missile destroyers deployed off the waters, deployed to the waters off Venezuela. And I think we're in with Rubio and a lot of people in the right, you remember as well as anyone, Rubio recognizing Juan Guaido and a bunch of Republicans recognizing Juan Guaido as a legitimate president of Venezuela, from their perspective. And part of this is that they have these actual personal relationships. And if you're Marco Rubio and you're sort of animating principle is looking at what but your family, you know, a lot of passionate Cuban anti communists.

[Saagar Enjeti]

South Florida's filled with like a bunch of rich Venezuelans who've fled, but also.

[Krystal Ball]

Cuban Americans like Marco Rubio.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They've made common cause with the Cuban. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, right. But also, like their identities have been built on this sort of animating anti communism. And it's for deeply emotional, personal reasons. And so Rubio then brings with him decades of personal relationships with anti communist activists, whether it's Juan Guaido or others in different countries. And so when you end up in a position of power, all of those people are knocking at your door. And not only do you agree with them, but you're talking to them all the time. You like them and you're trying to help them out, and they're asking to help them out. So it just creates this swirl of action that's almost like it's inertia. It's like you don't stop it because as soon as you're Secretary of State, guess who's knocking on your door and wanting that coup that you've always supported when you were just a senator. So I think a lot of it actually is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It could be that possibly that's also the call coming from inside the house, like, Rubio himself is personally animated by this.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was saying, like, the way that I think of it is even if Marco Rubio decided no, America first is no more coups, blah, blah, blah. I don't even know that he could. I honestly don't even know that he could. Because the Cold War inertia on the right is so strong at this point that it would take, I mean, just a feat. It would, like, think of convincing a lifelong anti communist Cuban to give up on Venezuela, like, give up on the Venezuela coup.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And just to underscore how insane it is that that Levitt was asked if there's gonna be American boots on the ground in Venezuela and she wouldn't say no.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. And this. Let's go to the New York Times report that the Rolling Stone report we had on the screen was confirming. The New York Times report was that President Trump has secretly signed a directive, quote, to the Pentagon to begin using military force against certain Latin American drug cartels that his administration has deemed terrorist organizations, according to people familiar with the matter. So Rolling Stone then takes that and talks about Mexico. And there's an argument from Trump people that there are certain Venezuelan gangs giving material support to Sinaloa and cartels in different places. But think about what that means. I mean, this is, as the New York Times says, the order provides an official basis for the possibility of direct military operations at sea and on foreign soil against cartels. US Military officials have started drawing up options for how the military could go after the groups. The people familiar with those conversations said, speaking the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive internal deliberations. So this is not just Venezuela, this is not just Mexico. This is the entire region. They've talked about Haitian gangs at this point like they are. This underscores what you were saying, and this is totally supportive of what you're saying, is that this is. It's not like Marco Rubio being dragged kicking and screaming into fighting the Cold War hemispheric battles. This is Marco Rubio eagerly saying, I'm in charge now. We're doing some coups, or maybe we're doing some coups, we're hoping to do some coups.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I think this could badly blow up in Rubio's face.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If he gets his wish and actually gets some type of confrontation. This is not what anybody wants.

[Krystal Ball]

Yep. Even people who again will agree with you on Maduro, say Americans who agree with you and say this Maduro guy, he seems shady, don't love him. Stop the, stop the narco trafficking.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You think anybody's gonna get that 50 million?

[Krystal Ball]

I think you could get it. I feel like you're a pretty good guy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He's in Caracas.

[Krystal Ball]

Cause you came out right away.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You said immediately, I know that guy. I've seen him before. Interviewed some of his lieutenants.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right. Big guest Ryan coming up, the next block who you helped us secure.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And we're going to talk to son of Marwan Barghouti who was just, I would say assaulted, but he wasn't physically assaulted. Itamar Ben GVIR went into Marwan Barghouti's prison cell and berated and threatened him. We're going to talk to Arab Barghouti, his son next.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Over the weekend, video of Itamar Ben Gavirich, an extremist minister in the Israeli government, emerged showing him threatening the most, by far the most popular Palestinian politician in the territories, Marwan Barghouti. If we can roll this VO here, Ben GVIR visits Barghouti in his cell after there had not been an image published of Barghouti in many years. And he says to him here, you will not win he who messes with the people of Israel, he who will murder our children, he who will murder our women, we will wipe them out. You need to know this throughout history. Joining us to talk about about the fallout from this is his son Arab Barghouti. Arab joins us now. Thank you so much for being here.

[Arab Barghouti]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So I said at the top of the show that people often say of your father, they'll say, you know, you'll often hear defenders of Israel saying, the problem with the Palestinians is, you know, there's no Nelson Mandela, you know, there's no leader who's going to unify the Palestinians and take them to a place of dignity and national liberation. And what a lot of people often say in response is that's not true if there is one. His name is Marwan Barghouti and he's been in prison for nearly two decades now. Can you tell us a little bit about who your father is? For people who are not immediately familiar with the politics of the Palestinian territories is.

[Arab Barghouti]

Yeah, I think that the most important thing for people to understand is that Marwan Bragouthi is the most popular leader in Palestine for a reason. It's for what he's given to the cause. My father has been struggling for Palestinians rights for more than 50 years. It was exactly 50 years ago when he stood as a teenager in Israeli presence at the age of 15. And that was the first, you know, activism work for him. And after that he stayed. He spent overall 30 years in prison, seven years in exile. And yet you will never hear him speak out of hatred. He has a purpose in his life and his purpose is very simple, the freedom and living with dignity for all Palestinians. And it's very important for people to understand that. My father supports political solutions. He supported those law courts in the 90s until he understood by the end of the 90s that we are dealing with a government, an Israeli government that, that is not interested in a peaceful solution, that is not interested in a two state solution. It's only interested in supremacy of, of the Israeli state over the whole land. And the proof of that is that within those lockwoods there were around 200,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Illegal settlers by international law, by the US Government and by every government in the international community. Yet the number of settlers, instead of decreasing, doubled by the end of the 90s within a few years. And that was a clear proof with that the Palestinian people had the right to go for the uprising, what's known as the second Intifada. And my father was the face of that intifada because he is a politician, and as a politician and as a parliament member, his role was to tell the people what to do. And he asked the people to protest against the illegal Israeli occupation that is not ending. And for that he paid a steep price. They tried to assassinate him multiple times and then they put him in prison and they framed him as, you know, a terrorist, which is the easiest thing for the Israelis to Call anyone a terrorist, which is something that all colonial power used to delegitimize the right of people of defending themselves. And since 2002, he's been in prison for that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right. And I think one thing that's so kind of instructive about his life story is that. So he's a member of Fatah, which is the rival, you know, the almost existential rival sometimes of Hamas. And he has been a very public and vocal supporter of a two state solution. Whereas, you know, Hamas is not, you know, is not publicly supportive of the two state solution. Yet. Yet among Hamas, he appears to be not just the Palestinians generally, but even people within Hamas. He's the most popular politician. They've talked repeatedly about trying to get him released from prison as one of their top, if not their top priority. So what do you make of what does that tell you about where the politics are? That if Hamas is this supportive of somebody who is supportive of a two state solution and has called for nonviolent, a kind of civil society led, unified Palestinian resistance, I think it tells me.

[Arab Barghouti]

That the Palestinian people are in need and are really interested in having a peaceful solution. Everyone is always wondering if the Palestinian people want peace. Of course we want peace.

[Krystal Ball]

Peace.

[Arab Barghouti]

If you look at the human suffering, more than 90% of the human suffering that is happening in this land for the past 76 years is from the Palestinian side. I know that, you know, in US Media, it's always covered as if the Israelis are the only ones who are suffering. Everyone lost their minds on whenever there is an Israeli that is suffering. And we don't want that. My father, as you mentioned, has been very clear about his opposing to the targeting of civilians. If you look at that, his biggest political achievement. It's the political prisoners document. The prisoners document in 2006 was a historical document for multiple reasons. First of all, it gathered for the first time all Palestinian factions under one umbrella. And they signed the first ever document together that stated that the Palestinian state should be established on the 67 borders. The targeting of civilians is forbidden. The targeting of anyone outside of the 67 borders is forbidden as well. And he brought not even only the Fatah and the PLO's parties, he also brought Hamas, Islamic Jihad and all Palestinian factions who signed on that document. And I think that's a huge achievement. But unfortunately, after that, and it was the cornerstone for the Palestinian government back then. But after that, unfortunately, the international community missed the opportunity when Hamas won the elections. And instead of helping Hamas to become a political party party, they isolated Hamas, they stopped the funding for the PE until the PE collapsed and which caused the division within Palestine. We've been divided between Fatah and Hamas for the last 17 years. And it's, you know, between the west bank and Gaza as well. And that was exactly the vision that Netanyahu always bragged about to the Israeli people, that, look what I did, I divided them, I ended the two state solution, I did this and that. And unfortunately, he's always respected within the American politics, even though he is the reason why we are suffering right now. Not only Palestinians, but I could argue if you're an Israeli, you should be opposing to the Netanyahu government. And the faces of Ben GVIR and Smotrich are a pure reflection of where the Israeli politics has happened.

[Krystal Ball]

And on that note about Ben gvir, I wanna read this quote from one of your father's lawyers to npr. He said, when I received the video, really, I didn't recognize Marwan. He lost a lot of weight and even his face is not what we were used to seeing. He said he had to consult with your father's wife to confirm that the gaunt figure in the video was her imprisoned husband. That's according to npr. What was your reaction to seeing that video?

[Arab Barghouti]

I was shocked. Shocked to say the least. I thought that there is a ceiling towards the desperation and the ugliness of this Israeli government. But I think that they have no ceiling. I think that they are capable of breaking laws and breaking traditions in front of the whole world because they know that there is no accountability whatsoever for what they do. If we were in a just word, it would have been the opposite. Bengvir is the one who needs to be in prison because he's a convicted terrorist. Someone who is calling for the genocide of the Palestinian people. And yet he practices his freedom when he comes to the US which is shameful that someone like him is allowed to go to the U.S. but Palestinian children are now not allowed to go to the US which tells you a lot about what we have to deal with. I think the video is shocking because I haven't seen my father in three years. It's very important for people to understand that this is a man who is a politician, a respected politician. He's recognized nationally and internationally. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for his attempts and tries to bring people together to unify the Palestinian people into one political vision that is accepted by the international community. And this reason, this point might be, be the reason why Netanyahu and his government are being very stubborn towards his Release because they know that someone like him, who respects the international community, respects international law, is calling for the two state solution, presents a threat way more than extremists, because extremists, they make it easy for him to cancel the Palestinian story. Overall, I think it's shameful that someone like him, who holds a PhD in political science, who is an educator, he is great father, and yet he is being treated like that. After October 7th, my father was sent to solitary confinement. He was assaulted at least three times, end of 23, March of 24 and September of 2024. The one in September of 2024 was the major one, where three to four prison guards, they came to him. They dragged him into an area with no camera surveillance. They started beating him up until he passed out. He was bleeding on the floor for hours, got injured in his ear, in his forehead, in his right arm. And he got some of his ribs broken. And this is the treatment that we are talking about. I want to make sure that people understand that my father does not represent himself Only he represents 10,000 Palestinian political prisoners who are going through the same treatment we lost. 76 Palestinian prisoners have been killed inside prison since October 7, many of them because of starvation, many of them because of beatings, many of them because of being left without any medical treatment. And no one talks about it. Everyone lost their minds because of the scenes of an Israeli captive in Gaza a month ago who looked losing weight and didn't look healthy. We want the same energy from everyone when they see Palestinians. It's time to humanize Palestinians and to stop the double standards.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yep.

[Krystal Ball]

While.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And so, interestingly, while Hamas has been, you know, publicly, you know, pushing for the release of your father, some of his people that you would suspect ought to be his allies in the PA have been much less vocal, to put it gently, about his release. Like, it seems like Netanyahu is not the only one threatened by, you know, by his potential release, that there are rivals inside the PA that may be as well. You saw some of them condemning Ben GVIR for visiting, which they should, but at the same time they haven't. What's your. I don't want to put words in your. What's your understanding of what the kind of role of some of the top officials in the PA has been in terms of securing his freedom?

[Arab Barghouti]

Well, I think it's not a secret that the PA is not doing well. Overall, I think that the PAA is in trouble because they don't have. Unfortunately, we feel that they are being helpless because, you know, the genocide that is happening in Gaza is not only impacting the people of Gaza, but also in the west bank as part of the collective punishment policy of the Israelis. And in the west bank we have, you know, many people who, thousands of people who have been ethnically cleansed from their homes in the north, in Tulkarim, in Anchor, in Hebron and in many other places. And we didn't see any reaction by the pe. In internal politics, you'll always have a competition and it's very normal that some of them, they feel threatened. But I refuse to believe that any Palestinian, regardless of who they are, don't want my father to be released. My father is a great political force for the Palestinian people. He represents a unifying figure, figure that everyone respects. And he represents a great opportunity for the international community to rescue the two state solution. And I think that the PA needs to be around that. He's a Fatah leader. He's part of, he's a member of the Central Committee of Fatah and he's a proud member there. And you know, our generation, I think, are not big fans of how Fatah has become with the corruption and with any, with many other issues and the integration with the pa. But we, I really believe that a strong pa, the body of the PA needs to be reformed and the institutions need to be stronger. And people like my father and many others who are in prison as leaders can play a great role in doing so.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Last question for me. I'm sure a number of people watching at this point say this sounds great. He opposes attacks on civilians. He supports two state solution, he's a unifying popular figure. But Israel says that he was responsible for killing civilians and that's why he's in prison. Can you address those that viewer?

[Arab Barghouti]

Of course, I think thank you for talking about this point because this point is part of what we call the character assassination against Manuel Barghouti that has been practiced for the last two decades. If you go to the trial of my father, it was a kangaroo trial. If you go to that, to the details, the judge of his trial called him a terrorist even before in the, in the early stages of his trial called him that. He's someone who targets civilians, which is something that is of course not true. If you go to the evidence, we have legal teams, international legal teams who did a full analysis and they concluded that it will would be impossible to say that Marwan Baruthi has been given a fair trial. Marwan Barouti has been. They tried to assassinate him three separate times in 2001, before they brought him to prison. If you want to assassinate someone before you bring them to trial, that gives you the message that they are sending. The fear that was within the Israeli government. They didn't want inspirational Palestinian leader that could give hope to the Palestinian people that we have hope in having our own state. And their answer for that is, let's try to assassinate him. When they fail to assassinate him, let's put him in prison and we can easily label him as a terrorist. And all the Western media, of course, who are puppets to the Israeli government, will start using the word terrorist whenever they mention his name. The word terrorists have been used to delegitimize, as I said, like people like us defending ourselves against oppression and against occupation and against the host horrible Israeli actions within the Palestinian cause. The last thing I want to say, if you go back and study the history of the Israeli trial system, first of all, they have two laws. If you're Palestinian at 16, you're an adult. If you're an Israeli in the same west bank illegal settler at 18, you're an adult. Other thing is that they make kids when they are 13 and 14, sign on Hebrew statements without understanding what they are, without having a lawyer, without having a guardian present. They put, as we speak right now, there are 3,600 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons without trial, without charge, and they are there under administrative detention, which is illegal by international law. I mean, you're talking about a trial that has a conviction rate against Palestinians of 99.7%. So what credibility does that trial or court have on Palestinians? I think that people need to go, need to see and, you know, review the trial that my father had. It's full of faults. It was intentional to fabricate that he targeted civilians so they can cancel his name forever because they knew his influence within the Palestinian people.

[Krystal Ball]

I was going to say, I do have one final question, actually.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Last point on that and then your question. Yeah. For people who are still confused about that. There were at the time Palestinian factions and leaders who supported attacks on civilians. But they were very public about it. This was an open debate with inside, you know, inside the resistance. So the idea that you would do it, but not. But deny, like, denied. It's like. No, like the people who supported attacks on civilians were open about why they did it and what the purpose was and why it was justified, et cetera. And he was opposed to that camp. But anyway, go ahead.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, no, so I was actually going to ask about that debate right now after. You know, let's Say there's a cease fire, some type of negotiation. How optimistic or not optimistic are you that leaders like your father will rise out of the ashes of Gaza at this point? Because the desperation has to be on a completely different level right now in 2025. So what does the future look, look like?

[Arab Barghouti]

I think that every Palestinian's priority right now is stopping the genocide in Gaza. This is the main priority. This is the most important thing. And we don't want to distract people into looking at other issues. The second thing is, of course, I am positive that my father is going to be released. I don't know when. Of course, the negotiations are very complicated. But, you know, my father used to always tell me that hopelessness is a privilege that we, Palestinians know, don't have. And I do think that we shouldn't feel hopeless because of what's happening. I want to remind everyone that, you know, if you look at the South African model, for example, in the 80s, within a few years, no one expected things to change that quickly. And I think that I see the change. I want to send a message to the pro Palestinians around the world and the pro justice. We shouldn't call them pro Palestinians. They are probably justice. And I want to send them a message that. I know that things seem as if they're not moving in the right direction. I know that things seem as if they are depressing with what we hear from governments, from officials, from the Israeli government itself. But I think that we need to keep the pressure. We owe this to the Palestinian children that are being slaughtered. We don't want their blood to be for nothing. We want to end this by establishing a Palestinian independence state. And I really hope that we can celebrate with my father a free Palestine sooner than later. And maybe one day you can meet with him and see what a great human being he is. As I said, what I want people to understand about him is that he's a great father. He has six grandchildren that he's never met before. I want him to fulfill the promise that he gave my mother more than 40 years ago when he told her that, listen, when he proposed to her, he told her that I'm not going to be a doctor or an engineer. I'm going to be a politician. And in Palestine, if you're a politician, you're either going to be killed, arrested, or become a corrupted leader, unfortunately. So he knew that his path was going to be very hard. But I promise you that when Palestine is free, we will live a normal life with our children, with our grandchildren. And that's the promise that we're all waiting for as a family. And he represents thousands of families who are going through the same in Palestine and they don't get covered, unfortunately, in the media.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, we look forward to that day. Ira Barghouti, thank you so much for joining us. Very much appreciate it.

[Arab Barghouti]

Thank you.

[Krystal Ball]

Big news on the tariff front. We can go ahead and put the CNBC article up on the screen. The headline here is Trump expands 50% steel and aluminum tariffs to include 407 additional product types. CNBC further reports the new report categories include everyday items such as car parts, plastics and specialty chemicals. Economists warn that the new levies could further strain the US Supply chain and raise prices for consumers. If we put the next tar sheet up on the screen, you can see some of the things here that are covered in it. So the secretary of commerce, under secretary of commerce for Industry and security said today's actions expands the reach of the steel and aluminum tariffs and shuts down avenues for circumvention, supporting the continued revitalization of the American steel and aluminum industries. So they say it covers wind turbines, mobile cranes, bulldozers, rail cars, furniture, compressors, pumps and hundreds of other products. CNBC is reporting this morning. Their headline after the markets opened as stocks are little changed as investors weigh retail earnings await Fed minutes. And Ryan, this is, I don't think this is surprising news, but it's definitely big news. I mean, this is how I think.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It'S a little surprising. I think it did catch people a little bit off guard. We can put this next one. Jason Miller, a supply chain expert, calculated that the latest and this is a list of the things the latest list adds another like $320 billion worth of steel and aluminum products are now affected. And he's talking about a 50% tariff on that them. That is a huge amount of money. We're talking 100, I can do the math there. That's $160 billion that is basically sucked out of the consumer economy there. So it's $160 billion in increased costs that will go to, as Trump loves to say, paying down the debt. Now, if you look at this list here, car parts, shovels, any construction equipment that has any steel or aluminum in it, as you said, tractors, gearboxes, heat pumps, like basically if you are in farming or construction or manufacturing, your costs are going to go up as a result of this, you know, quite, quite significantly. And so the goal here is, is to have an aluminum and steel industry that is completely kind of contained here in the United States, there isn't really a whole lot of policy to go along with this, to make it so that we have that industry that can then serve these, can make all of these different products in the meantime. Meantime, most people who are doing manufacturing or farming or construction, basically everybody almost who's doing manufacturing, farming or construction here in the United States is going to have their prices go, their costs go up and then they're going to have to eventually raise prices. So the idea here behind the tariffs is that we're going to support American manufacturing. The policy is to make it more expensive to do American manufacturing because.

[Arab Barghouti]

You.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Know, let's say you make knives because, and there was this company going around, it's like, oh, wait, we thought we made all our knives here in the United States. A lot of our suppliers are overseas. So while we manufacture it here, we produce it here, we have factory, we have a bunch of people working the kind of thing we want here in the United States. We do get some of our supplies from overseas. And wow, with these tariffs, it's now going to be much more expensive for us to do our manufacturing, which then, and so the foreign goods then don't have those extra costs in their supply chain. They'll just pay the tariff. Tariff when they, when they compete, when they are imported and compete against the American made one. So it's not obvious that like it's even going to give an advantage to American manufacturing at this point because so much of it is overseas. And also you're building a steel and aluminum industry domestically here. It requires, you know, multi billion dollars worth of investment. Right. Are you going to do that if you're not sure what the tariffs are going to be next Thursday?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, yeah, right. That's a, I think a really, the key point. Well, it's an important point because if you're somebody like me, and probably you too, who is supportive of having some measure of protectionism of American industry, the question of like Trump's direction and Trump's process, like the distinction between direction and process is an important one because the direction can be correct and the process can, can be so clumsy that the cost outweighs the benefit. And on that note, I actually still think that the jury is out on all of this and that's a larger conversation. But tractors are covered in this. Guess what was announced yesterday. John Deere announces hundreds of layoffs. This is a Newsweek headline. Legacy tractor maker John Deere has announced layoffs at three Midwestern facilities as the company grapples with declining sales and the effects of tariffs. On its bottom line, the struggling ag economy continues to impact impact orders for John Deere equipment. The company said in a media statement regarding the layoffs. This is a challenging time for many farmers, growers and producers and directly impacts our business in the near term.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So those Midwestern killing our farmers and then killing the industry, manufacturers.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, right. So that then becomes a question as Republicans are heading up for recess. I talked to a bunch of them at like a town hall and asked them, you know, why is Trump underwater on the economy? Why are polling, why is polling showing him underwater on the economy? And the answer I got is that the effects of the big beautiful bill haven't hit the economy yet. And that's why we did the bill when we did, they say so that by the time the midterms roll around, well, first of all, they'll say they did it because the tariffs have already been implemented and it was urgent. But then by the time the midterms roll around, the effects of the economy, the effects of the bill on the economy will be felt by families and communities. And what that means in terms of the tariff discussion is that they want to see this quasi industrial policy from the one big beautiful bill, write offs, exemptions, all of that stuff fueling growth instead of creating hemorrhaging. And when you look at John Deere closing three Midwestern facilities on the same day that these steel and aluminum tariffs are expanded, expanded, that's a flashing red light for Republicans who are counting on the one big beautiful bill to augment a wild and crazy tariff policy that feels like a roller coaster for all of these corporations. In addition to the already sort of significant, everybody would tell you a 10% baseline tariff and then all of these like 50% steel and aluminum tariffs. Everybody would tell you, you and I would consider seed. That is a shock to the economy. The argument is that it's a necessary shock to the economy. It is a shock to the economy. Nonetheless. What this then looks like is it's in addition to the shock, you have this extra layer of Trumpian uncertainty that is basically at a certain point, an unforced error.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I wonder, and maybe I'm too cynical here, but I wonder, I doubt it. I wonder if in come May of 2026, Trump's going to drop all of these tariffs, which would then lead to price drops, reduction in inflation. Things would be cheaper heading into the midterms. You could imagine a deeply cynical politician who's like, I would love to be able to toggle interest rates so that I can juice the economy in the six months leading into the midterms of the presidential election. But I can't do that because I still don't control the Fed, but I do control tariff policy, which I can gradually ramp up to be a really dominant force in the economy. And then when I feel like it, I can dial it back. And then a bunch of stuff gets imported for cheaper. Prices come down, dollar is shaken, everything's. And people are feeling good until November, they vote. And then in December, you slap all the tariffs back on for 18 months.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And then do it again for the next election. I mean, which again, that's the only thing that I can see even making any sense at this point.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think that's crazy to be honest, because. But then again, again, that's the environment that makes people or different countries, to the extent they can start hedging their bets with China or start hedging their bets by near shoring offshoring in different ways and just saying, well, this isn't, I mean, this is just not worth it. Just raising prices in different ways. This is the uncertainty. We don't know what happens with the next president. And now the precedent has been established, established that presidents can, you know, that precedent has existed for a while, but Trump has taken it to another scale, declare a national emergency and basically circumvent Congress completely on tariff questions, not just emergency tariffs on China like we'd seen in the past, but let's just go crazy on it. So that precedent has now been established. What happens after Trump, we don't really know.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, and aluminum and steel are also extremely energized intensive. And Trump just stripped like a trillion plus dollars of energy subsidies out of the economy while China is massively outpacing us on energy production. So, yeah, we want everything and we want to build nothing and do nothing. And let's see how that goes.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's see. We'll be here. We'll be paying attention to it. BreakingPoints.com if you, if you want to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Hear our cynical takes while you still have some money, you should use it for a premium subscription.

[Krystal Ball]

He's going to tariff podcasts pretty soon.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, I mean certainly the podcast equipment would be covered with this that I support.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, yeah, we're already in. So now we need a big moat.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, we are building the tariff wall around the. This is. Yep. So great day for, for us. But thank you everybody for tuning in again. BreakingPoints.com that's where you can go to get a premium subscription. We will be back on Friday normal schedule tomorrow. Crystal and Sagar. All right, so we'll see you on on Friday. As a reminder, you get the second half of that show if you're a subscriber. But we will be holding it on the fort with Crystal. Maybe Sagar will join on Friday. We'll see. Otherwise, everyone have a great day. Crystal, Crystal and Sagar will be back here tomorrow.

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[Krystal Ball]

Tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming.

[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

The actual events of her wrongful conviction and 15 year fight for freedom. Watch the Hulu original series the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. This is an iHeart podcast.