8/25/25: Bernie Backs Trump Intel Buy, Zohran Flamed For Bench press, Krystal Exposes Famine Coverup

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar — August 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Breaking Points dives into a packed news cycle featuring: Bernie Sanders' surprising support for Trump's Intel equity deal, the social media uproar over New York's Zohran Mamdani and his bench press, Krystal Ball’s deep report on the Gaza famine and media misinformation, and a revealing interview with former State Department spokesperson Shahed Ghreshi about internal dissent and suppression regarding US-Israel policy.

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1. Trump’s Intel Equity Deal & Bernie Sanders' Endorsement

[02:30–20:40]

Key Discussion Points

• Trump-Intel Announcement: Trump claims the US now owns 10% of Intel at no cost, converting CHIP Act grants into equity and framing it as a “great deal for America.”
• Details of the Deal:
  • $8.9 billion in CHIP Act grants for Intel (from 2022) are swapped for US government equity in the company.
  • The shares are bought at $20.47, a discount from other investors.
  • The deal includes no direct government control or voting rights.
• Debate: Industrial Policy vs Free Market:
  • Saagar calls this a “left-right horseshoe”—where populists of both stripes see merit, but libertarians bristle at government involvement.
  • He argues the US should learn from Asia’s state-backed chip industries, suggesting the “free market” can’t compete with government-subsidized foreign rivals (TSMC, Samsung, SMIC).
  • "If you leave it to the free market...you shut down the fabs, you become less competitive...they will subsidize the shit out of the industry..." — Saagar Enjeti [05:14]
• Bernie Sanders’ Principle:
  • Bernie: “If microchip companies make a profit from the generous grants they receive from the federal government, taxpayers have a right to a reasonable return on that investment."
  • Both hosts agree in principle but see execution risks.
• Krystal’s Reservations:
  • She worries Trump will use the government’s stake to reward cronies and punish opponents:
    “You could just see the way Trump would use this sway to punish his political opponents, to reward his cronies…” — Krystal Ball [08:11]
  • She supports protectionist policy in key sectors, but distrusts Trump’s motives.
• Manufacturing & National Security:
  • Both argue US loss of manufacturing is a security risk. Saagar notes “90% of advanced chip manufacturing” happens in Taiwan, a geopolitical hotspot.
  • Saagar criticizes the US “service sector” focus (“designed by Apple in California…manufactured in Guangzhou”), calling for true reshoring.
• Libertarian Pushback (Erik Erickson):
  • Erickson slams the move as “socialism” and a violation of free market principles. Warns of moral hazard and marketplace distortion.
  • Responds: “You want smaller government? This expands it...What have we been fighting for the last decade?” — Erik Erickson [13:47]
• Hosts Rebut:
  • Saagar: "That would be national suicide...the idea there's no national security concern on chips is preposterous." [15:32]
  • Both agree the US once excelled at mass production that won wars, now it’s lost that edge.

Notable Quotes

• “There is no critical national security interest which should not be under the control of a government.” — Saagar Enjeti [06:42]
• “This is such a critical industry...for defense, for aerospace, for EVs...we should have a direct interest.” — Krystal Ball [07:54]
• “We’ve become the Germans and Japanese of WWII—luxury manufacturing, but not mass production when a crisis hits.” — Saagar Enjeti [19:00]

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2. Zohran Mamdani's Bench Press Social Media Moment

[22:49–27:34]

Key Discussion Points

• Viral Video:
  • Zohran Mamdani, NYC Council member, attempts 135-lb bench press at Brooklyn Men's Day event.
  • Spotter helps through the lift, leading to online ridicule from “fit bros.”
• Fitness Culture & Political Spin:
  • Saagar: “I’m not a fit bro, just an observer.”
  • Trainer’s opinion: Not fair—Zohran wasn’t given a true chance, spotter never let go.
  • Eric Adams and Andrew Cuomo pile on social media, mocking Mamdani; Adams claims “The weight of the job is too heavy for him…The only thing he can lift is your taxes.” [24:28]
• Larger Trend:
  • Krystal notes constant efforts to dig up silly “scandals” on Mamdani—whether college admissions or DSA platform.
• Tone:
  • Both hosts see it as part of a meme-ification of campaigns and attack politics.

Notable Quotes

• “It’s kind of like a meme of them trying to come up with the silliest scandals for Zoron.” — Krystal Ball [25:44]
• “The only thing he can lift is your taxes.” — Eric Adams (as relayed by Saagar) [24:28]

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3. Eric Adams' Corruption Scandal & Scavenger Hunt Response

[27:34–35:23]

Key Discussion Points

• Bribery Allegation:
  • Campaign affiliate offers reporter cash in a bag of chips, claims it was a cultural misunderstanding when caught, pleads: “It’s a culture thing…I just wanted to be her friend.” [29:53]
  • Adams distances himself, minimizes relationship: “When I see her, I say ‘knee high’. That’s hello.”
• Broader Pattern:
  • Krystal calls Adams’ corruption “cartoonish—old school machine politics.”
  • The hosts point out multiple aides under investigation, the recurrence of envelope cash bribes.
• Media Critique:
  • The NYT withheld info about other suspected cash exchanges until after local media broke the story.
  • “Corruption is just so assumed to be a part of the Adams campaign they didn’t even find it newsworthy.” — Krystal Ball [32:16]
• Zohrah Mamdani Response:
  • Organizes a scavenger hunt across NYC, poking fun with a “chips” clue—a cheeky reference to the bribery scandal.
  • Saagar and Krystal debate if it’s “millennial cringe” or a “wholesome” way to build community and campaign enthusiasm.
• Nostalgia for NYC:
  • Krystal: “One of my favorite things to do when I lived in the city was just explore New York…always something new.”

Notable Quotes

• “Adams needs to launch his own shitcoin…People can funnel him cash via that.” — Krystal Ball [32:44]
• “This is Tammany Hall-level stuff.” — Saagar Enjeti [32:22]

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4. Krystal’s Monologue: Israeli Famine Denial and Media Manipulation

[37:34–47:31]

Key Discussion Points

• Official UN Declaration:
  • Gaza City in “state of man-made famine,” only the fourth such declaration in IPC’s history.
  • 35% of households in “catastrophic” food insecurity; 55% in “emergency.”
• Global and Israeli Reaction:
  • Israel and its influencers wage a PR campaign to deny the famine, allege UN double-standards, and accuse the IPC of using “lowered” metrics.
  • Netanyahu calls it a “blood libel.”
• Debunking Denial:
  • Metric Consistency: Same 15% malnutrition threshold was used for Sudan in 2024; choice of metric is based on field access, not political whim.
  • Israel’s misinformation called “a made up lie to deflect and to confuse you.”
• Propaganda Techniques:
  • Videos of full grocery stores or festive meals in Gaza, which are often outdated or not representative, echo historic tactics by Nazi propagandists about Warsaw ghetto conditions.
  • “Jacobi and his ilk are pulling the same detestable trick.” — Krystal Ball [44:11]
• Dire Hospital Testimonies:
  • First-hand reporting from hospitals describes malnourished, starving children with permanent damage.
  • Krystal denounces gaslighting and weaponized anti-Semitism accusations against critics.
• Emotional Appeal:
  • Krystal concludes with an impassioned condemnation of genocide denial and complicity:
    “Tell me they aren’t real, you sick freaks…Your lies, your gaslighting, your number games are so paper thin I can’t imagine you even find them convincing yourselves. I hope these babies haunt you for the rest of your days.” [46:53]

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5. Interview: Shahed Ghreshi on State Department Dissent & Firing

[50:08–69:59]

Key Discussion Points

• Background:
  • Ghreshi, recently fired State Dept. press officer, discusses being dismissed over proposing language expressing condolences for slain journalists and resisting pro-Israel rhetorical pressure.
• Events Leading to Firing:
  • Drafted statements offering condolences after an Israeli strike killed journalists (was told to “pause” until Israel provided their narrative).
  • Pushed back against using “Judea and Samaria” (Israeli terminology for West Bank) in official language, viewing it as erasure of Palestinians.
  • Recommended language against forced displacement of Gazans; was asked repeatedly about this line by leadership before dismissal.
• Internal Dynamics:
  • Political appointees like Ambassador Huckabee and his advisor David Milstein heavily shape messaging.
  • There’s a chilling effect: after Ghreshi’s firing, he predicts “no one will want to push back.”
  • “You realize it’s going to be a political point; no one’s going to want to push back after what happened to me.” — Shahed Ghreshi [68:41]
• Unique Deference to Israel:
  • Ghreshi says the US government defers uncritically to Israel in a way that it does with no other country.
  • “If someone had an issue, we would always have our own intelligence or our own commentary...With Israel, our response was: don’t respond, we don’t know what he did.” [64:07]
• Moral & Strategic Fallout:
  • Expresses frustration that even mild objections or expressions of empathy are suppressed for fear of political repercussions.
  • Internal hope that “someone says something about an airstrike” or condolences could lead to journalists holding the administration accountable.
• Reflection:
  • Interview concludes with Ghreshi explaining that his firing is likely intended to send a chill through the State Department, ensuring compliance and silence on Israel-Palestine policy criticisms.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Saagar’s Manufacturing Lament:
  • "We're the Germans now…We've become highly specialized but have lost our capacity for mass production. In a crisis, that’s scary.” [19:00]
• Krystal on Famine Denial:
  • “Ignoring those deaths in which starvation was a contributing factor is the equivalent of claiming there was no Holocaust because Anne Frank died of typhus.” [44:47]
• Shahed Ghreshi:
  • "I wasn’t the only one in the building who wanted that [Judea and Samaria] line removed...but after my firing, no one will want to push back." [69:47]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:30] — Trump-Intel deal breakdown
• [07:42] — Krystal on Bernie's stance and risks of political abuse
• [13:47] — Erik Erickson clip: Libertarian opposition
• [22:49] — Zohran Mamdani bench press video
• [27:34] — Eric Adams bribery scandal and scavenger hunt
• [37:34] — Krystal’s monologue: Gaza famine coverup
• [50:08] — Shahed Ghreshi interview: State Dept. internal dissent and firing

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Tone & Style

The hosts maintain their trademark blend of pointed analysis, banter, skepticism towards establishment narratives, irreverence about political scandals, and moral fervor where topics demand. Saagar is bluntly pragmatic and history-oriented, Krystal is principled and emotional, especially on issues of justice and humanitarian failure.

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Summary

This episode offers a cross-section of American political dysfunction, from the high-stakes question of industrial policy and government intervention in national security industries, to the vacuousness (and dangers) of meme-driven scandal politics, to the contemporary horrors of war and famine hidden or denied in convenient media narratives. The interview with Shahed Ghreshi reveals the tangible institutional costs of dissent on one of the most contentious foreign policy issues of the era. Throughout, the hosts challenge listeners to think beyond surface-level talking points, emphasizing the real-world consequences of policy and media manipulation.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Today Show Announcer]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

All on as the forecast calls for.

[Today Show Announcer]

Football all across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Krystal Ball]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Today Show Announcer]

Watch the Today show Weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows uned ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] let's get to Intel. This is a very interesting story actually Lots of perhaps some left, right horseshoe, a lot of the right people are very upset about it. So let's go ahead and put it up here on the screen. New announcement made by Donald Trump. He says quote, it is my great honor to report that the United States of America now fully owns and controls 10% of Intel, a great American company that has even more incredible future. I negotiated this deal with the highly respected chief executive officer of the company. The United States paid nothing for these shares and the shares are now valued at approximately 11 billion. Great deal for America. Also a great deal for intel building leading edge semiconductors and chips which is what intel does, fundamental to the future of our nation. Make America great again. Thank you for your attention to this matter. And so this has invited a lot of very interesting discourse. Just to give everybody some more details we can put the Wall Street Journal story up on the screen which gives some of the details. Basically what it does is it converts chips act grants into equity. So they were going to get this money anyways from the government. What it does is converts to equity in the company. And what it basically says is it's going to be followed potentially by other types of these deals under the terms the 8.9 million in grants that had already been awarded to intel from 2022 but had not yet been paid will just be transferred to equity in with basically a swap of that. They won't even have any like voting, you know, direct control in the overall thing. They're paying some quote $20.47 a share which is actually a discount apparently from what was recently offered to the Japanese controlled Softbank. Just so everybody aware. But the point is is that it's a bigger question about government control and whether the government should have a say in how these type of companies operate. And this is a big like libertarian, more like Koch brothers traditional free market view and what I would say is an industrial policy view. And it's actually important for everybody to sit and to think about the story of Intel. Intel was the flagship American semiconductor manufacturing company. It remains one of the only major semiconductor manufacturers in the United States today who creates their own fabs. This is another important thing. A lot of people don't understand this. Nvidia and AMD two of the Largest shares of market cap chip companies. They don't make anything, they design them. And TSMC makes all of it. Intel is the only one that actually knows how to make it. Now why does that matter? Because if 90% of advanced manufacturing for chips happens on the island of Taiwan, one of the literally most geopolitically unstable places in the world, that seems to be like a little bit of a choke point and maybe one where America has an advantage in moving away from that. That's why we're both supportive of the CHIPS act. Well everybody understand this. If you leave it to the free market or to American capitalism, Intel is the story. You shut down the fabs, you become less competitive. Meanwhile Samsung, which is AKA a branch of the Korean government, tsmc, AKA a branch of the Taiwanese government, smic, AKA branch of the Chinese government, are gonna eat your lunch. Cuz they don't care about profit and loss statements on a shareholder. They will subsidize the shit out of the industry to roll it up and to let intel basically sacrifice itself on the altar of quote, free markets because it's easier to outsource than it is to actually build shit, especially here in America. So then the question is, how do you accomplish that? Now the grants themselves, part of the problem is that they're not stringent enough in my opinion to make sure that they do not continue a lot of this MBA style process. So the question is how do you actually compete if it's even possible, with tsmc, with smic, with Samsung, with all of these chip manufacturers who build actual fabs? One way is the current way with the CHIPS act where we're trying to get those companies to build here in America. I think, I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that. But part of the problem is still, you know, it's not an American company, you still don't have nearly as much control as you would for national security purposes. The Taiwanese are. Taiwan's always going to be Taiwan first. Korea's always going to be Korea first. China, I mean, what, you know, they're the best at being China first. So shouldn't we have some sort of answer? And so before I get your take, Crystal, we got to put out Senator Bernie Sanders, the goat, as always sticking to his principle. Let's put it up here on the screen. Here's what he had to say. If microchip companies make a profit from the generous grants they receive from the federal government, the taxpayers of America have a right to a reasonable return on that investment. And so not only Do I endorse that? But I actually would say that if anything, we should have more of control with intel here. Yes, I know, crony capitalism, whatever. All right, let me again spell it out for you. There is no critical national security interest which should not be under the control of a government. It would actually be irresponsible to do so, because if you don't, then you're gonna end up like America today, which is basically a hollowed out husk of people who design shit and then let the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the Koreans, the Japanese actually build all of it for us. God help us if we're ever actually in a bad situation. That's my overall take.

[Krystal Ball]

Bernie's principle 100% agree with, unfortunately. I just know that Trump is going to use this to do some, like, stupid, corrupt gold chip.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We'll have the first gold chip ever manufactured.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, not only that, I think it's also important for people to really sit with. These chips are incredibly important. They genuinely are. Which is part of the case for why we should have a direct interest. And yes, I think Bernie's principle is totally true, that if we are giving these companies all these subsidies, and Bernie, I think, actually opposed the Chips and Science act or had some issues with it because of all the taxpayer subsidies. So I think it's reasonable to say, yes, the American people should benefit from profits. However, this is such a critical industry. We're talking about for defense, we're talking about for aerospace, we're talking about for EVs, for like, the industries of future renewable energy. So critical. You could just see the way Trump would use this sway to punish his political opponents, to reward his cronies, all of those sorts of things. And so that's why it's like, well, we'll see. I mean, it's kind of like with the tariffs, right? In general, do I support some protectionist policy in key industries? Sure. Does this man execute that in any sort of like a reasonable way in the American interest? No, he executes all his policies in his own interest. It's all about him having him personally having more power, money, influence, control. And so that's why I can't totally be like, let's go with this. I think we have some of the same reservations, right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like I said, all they got is build a gold chip and give it to him and be like, oh, okay, cool, I'm good. You know, I don't need to make anything else here.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But I still think it's worth fighting because all of Wall street and all these Other people are up in arms, they prefer the Nvidia AMD model, which is pay for play. And I think that's ridiculous. Which is basically grants Nvidia and AMD as long as they pay their 10% to the US government, they get to do business in China. No, we decide whether you do business in China or not. And again the question is this is the value problem and the American problem in a nutshell. Have you ever noticed every time you buy a laptop and you open it up, what does the word say? It says designed by Apple in California. Designed by Apple in California, Manufactured in Guangzhou Sheng. You know, whatever. Same thing with all these chips. The reason Nvidia and AMD are so massively profitable is because they take the service sector part of our economy, which we're great at, right? We have all the world's talent and we design all this stuff. But Taiwan makes it over 80% of Nvidia chips manufactured in Taiwan. I think it's 90% of AMD manufactured at TSMC. The actual nitty gritty of the manufacturing, we don't do it. Why? Super expensive. If you look at the history, there's a acquired podcast if anybody wants to go and listen. I highly recommend on the history of TSMC, 48% of initial startup capital for TSMC. Taiwanese government people don't understand. This is not an industry which you can compete by the quote free market. It will not happen. You will get crushed by state capitalism. And in fact this is again I would ask all these conservatives and all that, let's look at the model because their claim is state capitalism can't work. Really? BYD doesn't work. That's news to the largest, one of the most profitable car companies in the world. BYD doesn't work. SMIC isn't a juggernaut in terms of chip manufacturing. Look at their battery manufacturer, look at their airplane manufacturer, all their high tech tech manufacturer. None of it makes any actual profit. All of it is subsidized by the government and all of it is frankly creating in many cases much better products than so called free market capitalism here in America. This isn't to say a whole endorsement of the Chinese model, but you cannot sit with a straight face and say it doesn't work. It obviously works.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean the number of people that China has lifted out of poverty, that's what I'm saying. Genuinely an economic miracle.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's crazy.

[Krystal Ball]

It's genuinely an economic miracle. However, do we think that Trump with Howard Lutnick and these people are gonna be have the Long term interests of America in. And even if they did have the capability to like plan strategically and execute on a, you know, a whole industrial policy, of course not. And so on the one hand, look, I hope that there are some bold Democrat out there somewhere who's looking at all of this and can say, okay, well, they sort of laid down the marker here. We can take this model and we can expand and we can actually do it in the American interest. I hope that maybe that exists. Am I confident about that? No. In the meantime, like, we know this is gonna be less of the China model and more of the Russia model of like, you know, let me use the state control to like reward my cronies and lock in this, you know, group of oligarchs who surround me and bring me gold bars in the Oval Office or whatever and pad my own bottom line. And in order to make sure I can punish the opposition. If Gavin Newsom wants to do renewable energy projects in the state of California and make sure he can't get the chips that he needs to be able to succeed in his project, et cetera, that's much more likely to be the direction that we go in with this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, let me give a defense of the Russian model is whenever the sanctions hit, what happened, their GDP grew, they actually survived. Because the Russian model, if correctly executed, is, yes, we will be massively corrupt and give it out to our oligarch friends, but at the very least, it's all here because we're the worst of all worlds, we're oligarchic and we've outsourced everything. So we have a Russian style pay for play system without any of the domestic manufacturing, domestic capabilities and watching people freak out about this, you know, about socialism and the scary word and all of that.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, it is funny to see like people who freaked out about Zoron's five grocery stores.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Totally. Right? Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Then turn around and be like, oh, this is fine, you know, so here's.

[Saagar Enjeti]

A good taste of some of it. Shall we? This is from C5 Erik Erickson, one of the classic never Trump style original, original conservatives. Here's what he had to say.

[Erik Erickson]

There's no national security justification for this. In fact, I had some anonymous account on Twitter say, yeah, there's a national security justification for having control of Intel. Really. We don't have control of Raytheon, we don't have government control of Nvidia, we don't have government control of Apple, we don't have government control of Boeing. We don't have government control of Lockheed Martin. We don't have government control of any major weapons developer or defense contractor. But you want 10% control of intel in exchange for money the government already promised to give them. That's socialism. You may be comfortable with socialism. You may decide you like socialism because someone from the Trump administration wants socialism. But my God, people, what have we been fighting for for the last decade? You want smaller government? This expands it. You want the government not to go woke? Well, what happens when the Democrats get in charge and they become the largest shareholder of Intel? Good luck stopping that from happening. You know, there's no such thing as permanence in politics in the United States of America. You're not going to stop a Democrat from one day winning reelection or getting into the White House. Having the government take control of a private corporation in exchange for government funding. First of all, they shouldn't even get government funding. You should let intel fall flat on its face for having a bad business decision and let the creative destruction of the marketplace pick them apart. Let other companies buy up their pieces or let them regroup. A government bailout. You know what this does is it causes a distortion in the marketplace, something called a moral hazard, where more and more companies realize they can take extraordinary risks and fall flat. Irresponsible risks. Not extraordinary risks. Irresponsible risks. And the government will just say, well, give me 10% of your company and I'll make you right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That would be national suicide. That's literally a case for national suicide. Is we should. Fletcher, it's like the auto companies.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Don't bail them out.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let them fail. Okay, yeah, great. That'll be awesome for the people of Detroit. For any sort of manufacturing. During World War II, the US took control of literally the War Production Board set the actual amounts that every company in America had to produce at many times they would come in, seize the mines, seize the actual factory floor. No strikes, none of this bullshit. This is the amount that we're pumping out today because we have actual national security concern. The idea there's no national security concern again on chips is preposterous. That is preposterous. We are in the opposite where we. It is one of the most glaring problems that we face as a country. It's like a slow moving crisis every single day that we move forward and we come to some sort of quote, solution, as the Chinese like to call it. To the Taiwanese question, we are so screwed. We literally, as a country, we would have to turn our laptops in, we probably would have to stop broadcasting. We had to turn all of these computers in because the government would need to rip the chips out of them for missile production or any of that. People do not understand how vulnerable we are. Fabs and all that. Takes five, ten years to come online. It is so difficult. Massively capital intensive. Again, the only reason the Taiwanese are where they are is because they subsidized the hell out of it because they knew that we were so dumb that we would let our companies fail. And the best part is Morris Chang, where do you think he learned everything that he got here from Texas Instruments. He came to America, he learned our. Learned our system, and he's like, yeah, these guys are idiots. Went back to China, went back to Taiwan, game over, killed us. Same with, you know, I mean, with the Koreans and more. So anyway, look, I understand your concern, but the benefit actually is, sure, three and a half years of Trump, it's probably going to be dumb. All right, let's all be honest. But it's staying. And that's a good thing. I think it's a good thing.

[Krystal Ball]

We'll see how it all pans out. I do have a lot of. I will say, at least Ericsson is consistent. You know, the number of Republicans who panic over the five grocery stores and then they have nothing to say about this is pretty funny to me. Pretty entertaining.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Nobody actually believes that for a national security industry that you should leave it to the free market or creative destruction.

[Krystal Ball]

Some people do. That guy does. I mean, this has been like. But, you know, a lot of people do in this town. Sure, that's been the de facto policy for years, is like, let's let all of the, you know, pharmaceuticals go overseas. Let's let, you know, also any sort of critical production. Let's not have any sort of a national strategy or, you know, and let's not care certainly at all about the way that we're destroying the lives of the working middle class in this country. I mean, that has been the policy, what Erik Erickson is describing, that continues, by and large to be the policy of America.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And that's the issue. Right. I thought that we all fought against that. I thought that we. I mean, if you look at a poll or whatever, they would be like, it's preposterous. The idea that you should not have a chip manufacturing or frankly, pharmaceutical manufacturing, oil refineries, nuclear reactors, anything that sustains something like, we are so. We are so outdated and increasingly embracing national suicide. And it's like watching it all happen every day is disgusting. I just recently was talking with someone about the old Just the old model of America and World War II, which a lot of people want to look at and venerate as a production the country, the B17 Boeing and who we are. One of the benefits that we had as America was we were a country that was able to churn out all of this weaponry and these tanks. We did it with machines and with a population and a troop force which knew how to do that for mobilize. And what we were fighting were the Germans and the Japanese who were people who didn't have mass production but had highly specialized, like almost artistic types of manufacture. Where for the Japanese 0 or for the very first jet engine that the Germans were ever able to create. We're the Germans now. Where are the Japanese? We have these crazy expensive B2 bombers and all this stuff. Do we have the fuel to fly them? Do we have all of the bombs or the ammunition or the chips to actually put into them? No, we're the Germans now. And putting it in that terms is really important for people to understand. Like we have moved away from that mass production economy to this highly specialized one that actually in a crisis would never be able to to function. And that's really, honestly, it's scary. Like Russia today is a much better model for a country who's able to survive as a result of a crisis. And so anyway, this puts us hopefully, I think on a better direction.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, if it all ends with, you know, a Democrat coming in and nationalizing pharma, I will retrospectively say yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, look, what Dem would be dumb enough not to at least say that on the campaign trail.

[Krystal Ball]

Seriously, all of them?

[Saagar Enjeti]

You really think so at this point? Maybe you're right.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know. Name one that would be like nationalized pharma.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Somebody's got to say. Or somebody's got to say something about it. I mean, yeah, maybe, right? Maybe we're so capable.

[Krystal Ball]

You think Gavin Newsom is going to say nationalized pharma?

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't know if there's that many.

[Krystal Ball]

Gretchen Whitmer these people are.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I wonder where they all. I didn't need to look into it for where their manufacturer bases are because I mean, most of them are European anyways. Screw them all, right?

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Krystal Ball]

Good morning. Welcome to today.

[Today Show Announcer]

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all on.

[Saagar Enjeti]

As the forecast calls for football all.

[Today Show Announcer]

Across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Krystal Ball]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Today Show Announcer]

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Saagar Enjeti]

With comprehensive reports on local schools you won't find anywhere else. Homes.com is the only place to find the in depth info home shoppers want very in depth info. Curious about where a school ranks in the state? Look no further. Percentage of teachers in their first or second year? We've got it. Lowest student teacher ratio.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

No problem.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The best cafeteria lunch in the district for your nine year old food blogger. Would it surprise you if we said yes, homes.com we've done your homework.

[Krystal Ball]

Moving on. That's a good segue to our socialist friend up in New York. So he's catching a lot of heat for this particular video of him. I guess this was something called Men's Day in Brooklyn's day Brooklyn where they had all the weightlifting stuff and a bunch of guys bench pressing, et cetera, on the sidewalk. So they convince him to come in and give his go at this is apparently 135 pounds that he is attempting to bench press here. Let's take a look.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

This is how you move up in the pole.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is how you move up in the pole. Yeah. Two, three.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Yeah. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Let me get one more. Let me get one, let me get three. Let me get three.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let me get 3. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

All right. I look at that. I'm like, everybody's having a good time. What's the problem? But this became a whole thing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Unfortunately, amongst fit bros, he's getting. By the way, I am not a fit bro. I'm simply an observer. I would never claim. That's stolen valor.

[Krystal Ball]

A bro noticer.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's stolen valor. But anyway, I'm aware of the discourse and the fitness community, and he's getting ripped. He's getting ripped apart. Now, I did ask my trainer, and my trainer says it's unfair because they didn't really give him a chance. So we didn't fully get to see whether he could actually do it.

[Krystal Ball]

For people who are just listening, the spotter is holding the bar the whole time.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The entire time.

[Krystal Ball]

And so he doesn't fail, but he also doesn't really try. Like, because the spotter is holding the bar the whole time.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, exactly. So, look, I mean, at the same time, politically, it hasn't ended up well, at least for him. Yet. Eric Adams and a lot of others are capitalizing on this. Here we have Eric Adams. Let's put this on the screen. He says, quote, a lifetime of hard work versus a silver spoon. The results speak for themselves. The weight of the job is too heavy for Mom. Scrawny. The only thing he can lift is your taxes. And I believe Andrew Cuomo has weighed in as well. D3, please. Let's put it up there on the screen. What have we got? Andrew Cuomo. It's easy to talk. It's hard to carry the burden. This guy can't bench his own body weight, let alone carry the weight of leading the most important, important city in the world. I actually do wanna know how much Cuomo can bench, because if you'll remember, his nipples were often very prominent protruding shirts during COVID Remember that comment that Trump made?

[Krystal Ball]

Of course I did.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Listen, he was right. You know, he's right.

[Krystal Ball]

Nipples protruding.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's true. It's gross. All right? It's gross. Put a damn. You know, put a jacket on, man. If that's your physique. Anyway, this has gone quite viral for Mr. Zoron. So, anyway, I am curious. I do wanna know what Cuomo can be.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, it's.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And whether Adams is on TRT because 60 lifting a lot. I mean, I'm skeptical, personally.

[Krystal Ball]

There's a whole dynamic in this campaign that's also like a meme of them trying to come up with the silliest scandals for Zoron. Like, there was that whole, remember, thing about his college admissions and the box he checked and whatever, all that sort of stuff, or the other thing that the New York Post loves to do is they love to pull the DSA platform and find something in that and be like, zoron supports this. I just felt, even when he didn't say anything, I literally just fell for that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The headline was like, zor wants to.

[Krystal Ball]

Get rid of misdemeanors.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I was like, man, what an idiot. And I started reading it and I was like, wait, this is the DSA platform?

[Krystal Ball]

I was like, it's not the same thing. He didn't say anything about that. But they'll just pull anything from the DSA platform anyway. So I do think this fits a little bit in that vein of, like, finding the silliest possible thing they're flaring.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You know, it's just funny. I mean, it's personally fun. By the way, I'm going to. I don't bench press at the gym. My trainer doesn't have me do it because he thinks it makes him very injury prone. But I have spoken to him, and I will be doing the 135 challenge, even though I don't think I've done a bench press in two years. But I'm gonna do it.

[Krystal Ball]

I believe in you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It would be pretty embarrassing if I couldn't consider my body. Yeah, sure. I'll post a video. I'll do it here. I'll do the bench press challenge. I happily will. One, three. That's just one plate on each side. I mean, for my size and body weight, I believe I should be able to do 225. That's like the. You're supposed. Isn't that the metric? You're supposed to be able to bench your own body weight. The one guy who is the goat in this is Jamal Bowman, who we've had because he benched £400. That's impressive, man.

[Krystal Ball]

That is very strong.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That genuinely, like, shockingly impressive.

[Krystal Ball]

He is very strong. Maybe we should book Jamal to give us a breakdown on all of this. He's a Zoron supporter, too.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's right. Zoron supporter who can bench 400. Yeah, actually, we should. Especially on his form, because again, I don't know enough about his form or whatever to see if it.

[Krystal Ball]

Jamal Bowman. Also, we had him on kkf and we had him on our livestream when Zoron won the primary. And he's just in his giving zero fucks mode, too. So he's fun to talk to right now because he will just spill all the tea about what he saw in Congress and his interactions with AIPAC and all of that. So in any case, it'd be fun to hear his thoughts on the race more broadly. At the same time, we've got yet another genuine corruption scandal with regard to Eric Adams. The details of this are so preposterous. We can put this up on the screen. So he has this lady who's affiliated with this campaign who does outreach to the Chinese American community in the city. And so apparently after some event, she said, you know, she said, oh, meet me over at the Whole Foods, because I want to give you something. And so this reporter walks over with Greco is the Chinese American lady who's the advocate for Adams. And it says, while inside the store, Greco handed the reporter an open bag of chips with the top crumpled closed. The reporter thought it was an offer of a light snack and told Greco more than once she could not accept the chip, but Greco insisted that she keep them. The two parted ways before entering a nearby subway station. The reporter opens the bag and discovers a red envelope inside stuffed with cash, at least one $100 bill, several twenties. Reporter then called Greco and said, I can't accept this money. Asked if she was still nearby so she could give it back, Greco said she left the area. Reporter told her she had to take the money back. Greco said they could meet at some point in Chinatown. Reporter then texted Greco, I can't take this. When can I give it back to you? She did not get a. In an interview later Wednesday, the city, that's this publication asked Greco what her intention was in handing money to the reporter. In response, she'd said she'd made a mistake and apologized over and over. And actually, her specific comments are really funny here. I don't know if we have them, but I'll just go ahead and read them because her explanation is kind of entertaining. She says, quote, I make a mistake. I'm so sorry. It's a culture thing. I don't know. I don't understand. I'm so sorry. I feel so bad right now. I'm so sorry, honey. Then she called the city back, advising that we call her attorney, Stephen Brill, and adding, quote, can we forget about this? I tried to be a good person. Please, please, please don't do in the news nothing about me. I just wanted to be her friend. I just wanted to have one good friend. It's nothing. So there you go. Another interesting let's put Eric Adams response up on the Screen this guy. You just can't make it up. D5. So there were some other issues with the same Chinese American lady. There was like she roped volunteer into helping her remodel her home. She lived at some hotel for months at a time that was supposed to be for formerly incarcerated people. There's all kinds of stuff going on with this lady. In any case, when Mayor Adams was asked about these findings previously, he deflected and downplayed his relationship to Greco, saying he hadn't spoken to her about the allegations. When I see her, I say knee high. How you know, that's hello. He told the press. So that was. That was his explanation of all of this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, wasn't her defense also, she's like, I'm Chinese. That's just part of our culture.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, just like. Just like Cuomo is Italian, so he's not a sexual harasser. He's just Italian.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, a little dicey there. Also, if you're gonna bribe somebody, you gotta do more than 140 bucks. I mean, what are we doing here?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, these are, you know, these local reporters. It's tough times, you know this. Tough times. The news industry's in freefall. Couple hundred bucks, I can make a difference. Adam.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, he's just one of the greatest to ever do it. I'm gonna miss him. He really am. He was good.

[Krystal Ball]

The cartoonish level of corruption with this man, I long ago lost count. Ross Barkin could break it down for us. Of the number of aides who were indicted under investigation, this lady herself had previously been under investigation. I think she had like an FBI rating. Her stuff seized previously, if memory serves correctly. But it's just, you know, he's just. It's like a throwback, you know, to old school, decades ago levels of big city machine level corruption. And there was one other thing that was interesting about this, which is after the city gets their bag of cash and reports it all out and reports her to whatever the ethics commission is, et cetera, or law enforcement, then the New York Times publishes this piece that's like. Yeah. Reporters also saw cash being exchanged in these envelopes from the campaign. And it's like, why didn't you report that?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, why didn't you report that? Totally. I agree. That is the sketchy.

[Krystal Ball]

So weird, right?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

I don't know.

[Krystal Ball]

Just total laggy. Just corruption is just so assumed to be a part of the Adams campaign that they didn't even find it newsworthy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I've seen a lot of corrupt shit here in Washington. I actually have never seen Cash change hands. That's the one thing where everything is supposed to be, you know, oh, here's some free drinks and here's a free dinner and you get to come to this. And, oh, if you're on your way there, you can ride on my jet if you want. Everything is supposed to be so, like, you're not supposed to be able to prove it. Actual cash exchanging hands is wild. That's like Tammany hall level stuff.

[Krystal Ball]

Adams needs to work, he just needs to launch his own shitcoin.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

People can just funnel him cash via that because that's apparently a thing that politicians can do now. No problem whatsoever. So Zoron, as a little tongue in cheek response to this latest scandal from Eric Adams. And also just, I guess because they came up with this idea, he actually did a citywide scavenger hunt hunt over the weekend. And here is how he announced that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Hello, my friends, I have to come clean. I have something to hide. Many things, in fact. Because we're doing a scavenger hunt. No, no, no. Actually, we are doing a scavenger hunt across New York City.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

When you arrive at the location, look.

[Saagar Enjeti]

For a campaign volunteer who will mark off your card and give you a clue to the next location. At the first stop, you'll get this card. At the final stop, you'll find a special surprise.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Not a lot of cash. So make sure you go all the way to the end.

[Krystal Ball]

So for those of you who, again, are just listening, he starts with like the bag of chips and he's like, oh, I've got something to hide here. A reference. It's the same type of chip in which the envelope of cash had been stuffed. So that's a reference there, or whatever. But I love the scavenger hunt thing. I don't know, it's like millennial cringe, I guess people are saying, but I support it. I love the celebration of New York. That's really a key ethos of the Zoron campaign. It's personally making me very nostalgic for the city of New York and for the time period that I live there. And apparently there's a huge response. We could put this up on the screen, the images, while you say what you thought about it. On the one hand, thousands of people who showed up for this frickin thing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On the one hand, scavenger hunts, Pokemon Go, and all of this stuff is deeply cringe and millennial. On the other, we do have a crisis of community and people going outside and doing things. I guess it's so wholesome.

[Krystal Ball]

It's kind of like, look how wholesome the guys.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's kind of like, what's it called, like, pickleball. You know, the people in the tennis community really hate pickleball because it's taking over the courts and all of that.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But it's the fastest growing sport in the country. I agree. It looks silly. Every time I play it, I feel a bit silly. It's kind of fun. It has zero barrier to entry and you know, anything that gets people moving, gets outside is probably a good thing. So anyway, sorry, tennis people, your courts, we're seizing them, we're taking them over. And I feel similarly about this, personally. I do think scavenger hunting is cringe. I would not engage.

[Krystal Ball]

But you know, if I was there, I would be there.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If it gets people outside, it gets people doing something, go for it.

[Krystal Ball]

One of my favorite things to do when I lived in the city was just to explore New York. Yes. Because you could explore that city and five boroughs for your entire life and constantly, every time find something new, interesting, unexpected, et cetera. So in the spirit of that, I am a full supporter of the Zoron scavenger hunt.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, look, you know, we didn't say the, we didn't say that everything wouldn't be cringe. But it can also be good. So, you know, you never know.

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[Krystal Ball]

Good morning, welcome to Today.

[Today Show Announcer]

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all along.

[Saagar Enjeti]

As the forecast calls for football all.

[Today Show Announcer]

Across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts, and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Krystal Ball]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Today Show Announcer]

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Saagar Enjeti]

At homes.com we do whatever it takes to get you the in depth info on local schools you won't find anywhere. Things like student teacher ratio, test scores in school programs and sometimes that requires attending school recitals. So many recitals.

[Today Show Announcer]

That's my son.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Isn't he terrific?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, a real prodigy. Homes.com Bing Dong We've done your homework. All right Crystal, what are you taking a look at?

[Krystal Ball]

Last week, UN backed experts with the ipc, or Integrated Food Security Classification System officially declared Gaza City in a state of man made famine, only the fourth such declaration made in that organization's history. Here you can see the steady rise in those facing emergency levels of food insecurity and catastrophic levels of food insecurity. Already, Gaza City has reached that organization's metrics for an official famine declaration, with 35% of households at that catastrophic mark and another 55% at the emergency level. The other regions of the Gaza Strip are also on track for famine if a ceasefire and surge in aid is not immediately achieved. With conditions worsening everywhere, the authors of the report sounded a dire warning saying, quote, if a ceasefire is not implemented to allow humanitarian aid to reach everyone in the Gaza Strip, and if essential food supplies and basic health, nutrition and sanitation and water services are not restored immediately, avoidable deaths will increase exponentially. Now will Israel use this official report to take a step back? Reflect on how they could have lost their way so badly as to go from genocide victims to genocide perpetrators in just a few generations? Or even just to consider with shame the way that they have torched their reputation as a civilized nation with the entire rest of the world? Obviously not. Instead they waged an immediate all out war to try to deny the veracity of this assassination pseudoscience propaganda reports were crafted. Netanyahu of course called it a blood libel and official Israeli hasbara influencers were dispatched to debunk the claims. But the real high IQ genocide denial take came directly from the Israel Twitter account. Here they claim that the IPC lowered their standard to 15% malnutrition in order to unjustly smear Israel. Quote in other countries the IPC declares famine at 30% malnutrition in Gaza only the UN backed IPC lowered the bar to 15% and it is based on unreliable data. They didn't find famine so they forged one. This of course is total and complete bullshit, a made up lie to deflect and to confuse you. Refugees International President Jeremy Kannandyk posted an excellent thread to explain the trick that Israel is trying to pull here. He points out that first of all, the exact same metric was used for declaring famine in Sudan just last year. So right out of the gate this whole blood libel anti Semitism double standard claim from Israel is completely blown up. The TLDR is this There are two different assessments which can be used to determine famine conditions, both of which have been used by the IPC in the past. One is weight for height, which is basically a BMI metric, and the other is MUAC or mid upper arm circumference. Kannandyka writes that both are valid ways of assessing global acute malnutrition in a population. And in line with IPC guidance, mid upper arm circumference is often used when assessors have limited access, as is the case in Gaza due to Israel's decimation of the healthcare system and attacks on international aid workers. These two different metrics also have two different thresholds for famine designation. Here so you know is the relevant chart. You can see that for the BMI wait for height metric metric, 30% of children must be malnourished for it to be deemed a famine. For the mid upper arm circumference test, the threshold for phase five famine is 15% of children, which is what was met in Gaza City. As to why the different tests merit different thresholds, Koenendyke writes the following because they measure different physical characteristics, weight for height and MUAC often manifest at different levels within the same population. A lower muacation usually equates to a higher weight for height gam. That's a famine measurement. Hence the different thresholds of 15% and 30%. So essentially mid upper arm circumference is a more stringent criteria. So if you're seeing 15% in trouble using that criteria, you would likely have measured more than 30% if you were able to do a full weight for height assessment. The Israelis are not stupid. They know all of this. They're just hoping you are stupid and that you won't look past their surface level assertions and that the process is rigged. Or to be so terrified about being accused of antisemitism that you will back down at the first challenge. There are other high acute genocide denial claims though, and they are similarly dishonest. Israel claims that Gaza City did not yet actually cross even that 15% assessed child malnutrition threshold as required in July. In fact, in fact, the report breaks July into two halves. In the second half of July the threshold was in fact breached, clearly demonstrating the trend is towards worsening conditions and that the most recent data is in fact indicative of phase five famine. Israel also claims that Gaza has not met the threshold for famine based on the number of deaths from starvation. Here too, they are lying and they are gaslighting you. The IPC standards take into account all famine related deaths, not solely those in which the sole cause is starvation. As Nirhasan writes for Haaretz Mass hunger is not only a medical issue caused by food shortage, it is a total collapse of the systems that sustained life. Elderly people and infants die because their immune systems are weakened. They suffer infections from living in tents without sewage or clean water. Chronically ill patients die because they cannot access treatment or special food or are too weak to travel to clean clinics. Premature births and pregnancy complications are rising and this is only a partial list. In other words, ignoring those deaths in which starvation was a contributing factor is the equivalent of claiming that there was no Holocaust because actually Anne Frank died of typhus. But this is far from the only area where Israeli propagandists echo the despicable claims of Nazis and Holocaust deniers. The Israeli government has been busy pushing their influencer cutouts to back up all of their genocide denies denial. According to Haaretz, the Israeli Diaspora Affairs Ministry sponsored influencers to take PR trips to the GHF aid massacre sites, where they of course dutifully reported back that all was well and no one was starving. Propagandists like Al Yacabi have been busily reposting videos purporting to show Gaza grocery stores chock full of food and Palestinians out there enjoying lavish spreads of food. You should be very skeptical of all of these photos and videos. There have been a bunch of instances where they were actually old videos or somewhere else entirely. But even when they are actually from Gaza in the present day, they prove nothing. And as Zed Jelani writes, they come straight out of the playbook of Holocaust denial. Drawing the parallel, Zed writes of the way a few restaurants in the Warsaw Ghetto were used to claim that Jews were not only just fine, but they were actually glad the Nazis didn't have access to social media. But they did have cameras. They used these restaurants in the ghetto to portray an image of Jews getting fat off of plentiful food, ignoring the mass hunger and violence that gripped ordinary life in the ghetto. The following is the recollection from Samuel Puterman, who was there. The guests were supposed to eat a lot voraciously and wash down the food with alcohol, he said. They were filming waiters bustling around the tables laden with trays on which gourmet delicacies were piled up. They photographed the general view of the crowded room. Single who were ordered to lift up their dresses high. Jews eating sardines from the can with their fingers. Jews playing under the table with the bare calves of the female companions of the libation. Jews throwing half eaten goose quarters under the table. The film reel did not show fainting women and the black and blue faces of people hit with a whip. Jacobi and his ilk are pulling the same detestable trick, showing a few decadent looking scenes and claiming this is remotely representative, daring you to disbelieve the doctors, the experts, Palestinians themselves, and what you can see with your own eyes, on your own timeline every single day. Haaretz did a virtual tour recently of Gaza hospitals and they found exactly the horrific conditions you would expect among a trapped, starved, bombed population. Child after child with bones jutting out, abdomens distended, full body rashes from the diarrhea caused by malnutrition and poor sanitation. There's little Amer, an infant whose hair was faded to a reddish brown, whose mom was too starved to breastfeed and too poor to purchase the $100 per tin formula. So she fed him all that she had. Corn starch in water. Doctors say if he survives, his brain will be permanently damaged and he will suffer lifelong severe retardation. There's Sham, a tiny 2 year old weighing less than 10 pounds. She was a healthy child just before October 7th. Now her body is wasted, her face is that of an old man. Her family too could find no milk substitute for her. The doctor caring for Sham said, quote, as you can see, she's in a miserable situation. She's always crying, she's always suffering. Tell me they aren't real, you sick freaks. You disgusting monsters. Tell me I'm an anti Semite for believing that their lives matter too. Your lies, your gaslighting, your number games are so paper thin I can't imagine you even find them convincing yourselves. I hope that these babies whose lives you've stolen haunt you for the rest of your days. You are utterly disgusting and a disgrace. Grace to humanity. Sager, I have lost words to describe how despicable I find this game that they're playing. I hate that I had to spend.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And if you want to hear my reaction to Crystal's monologue, become a premium subscriber today at BreakingPoints.com.

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[Krystal Ball]

Good morning. Welcome to today.

[Today Show Announcer]

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

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Watch the Today show Weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Hull up.

[Krystal Ball]

We got one play.

[Today Show Announcer]

Everything we work for comes down to this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Quick, west, speaking of workouts, how would you rate your athletic program?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Bro, we're in the middle of the state championship.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, so like a B then?

[Today Show Announcer]

Dude, get out of our huddle.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, at holmes.com, we leave it all on the field to get you detailed information on local schools. Off the field. Off the field. Copy.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

All right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Go sports.

[Today Show Announcer]

How'd he even get in here?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Holmes.com Bingo. We've done your homework. Very excited now to be joined by Shahed Ghreshi. He's a former state department employee who was summarily fire recently. Let's go and put this up there on the screen. Fired this official over Internal debates over Israel. Qureshi recommended expressing condolences for slain journalists in Gaza and exposing the forced displacement of Palestinians, according to documents reviewed. He was then fired days later. So shy. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. We appreciate it.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Glad to be here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, so let's start off with the top. You were recently fired from the State Department. The State Department says that they won't comment, but they're basically accusing you of leaking. It appears that a lot of this comes down to internal debates over Israel. First and foremost was about this journalist statement. So why don't you describe this statement, what it was and why you think it got you fired?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Sure. So Sunday, August 10th, we got the breaking news that Anas and his colleagues were killed in Gaza while sleeping in a tent. It's very common when you're in a press officer to receive one off questions from reporters.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

So we got one submitted. Is what's your response? The general open ended.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Somebody like me is like, hey, what's the department government's response?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Exactly. And when you read an article, you'll often read a State Department spokesperson said X. That's usually us emailing one of the press offices, emailing the op ed or the journalist. And so in that specific instance I drafted, we're still gathering information, which is still true. Like it just broke. And my second bullet was we are sharing condolences, which is I think a human and response is also in line with US interests. Like we do want to have that line out there. And immediately I was told that we don't know what happened and we don't know what he did. So to pause. And then by tomorrow, by the next day, August 11, which is a Monday, Israel said that he was Hamas. And then that was the line we ended up going with by the press briefing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay, and so that, how did that lead to your firing? Because this is the first thing, I.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Think it was a buildup. So that was the Sunday, Monday I drafted a line saying we're against forced displacement of Gazans to South Sudan. They cut that line out and I think that was some sort of flag for them as well. And then by day three, I think the nail in the coffin was me removing the line in reference to Judea and Samaria in my press guidance. That was not in line with anything the State Department had been saying at the time, but it's something that the senior officials at Embassy Jerusalem wanted. So at that point I was flagged up and by Sunday I was gone.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, which senior officials and what is Your did they directly sort of confront you about these, about you expressing condolences for journalists and saying, hey, it's the west bank, not Judea and Samaria? By the way, how did you gain the understanding that those are the reasons why they let you go?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Sure. So some of it's obviously the Washington Post reporting, but from my end, it was David Milstein that was off, often pushing a particular agenda in the building.

[Krystal Ball]

And this is Ambassador Huckabee's senior advisor.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

And he would often ask for certain lines or certain statements. I know the Washington Post reported on the island statement. And he would go around the building trying to get this through. And it was in a more basic level, it was very annoying to navigate his request in that particular instance with the Judea Samaria line? That's not a line Ambassador Huckabee is using, but it wasn't common for anyone in D.C. to use it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Explain why. Why does that matter? Judea and Samaria versus West bank and Gaza?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Because that was erasure for the Palestinians living in the West Bank. And it also really undermines our relationship with our partners in the region. And third, it's for an Israeli audience. So it makes sense for Ambassador Huckabee to want to use those terms.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sure.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

And at that point, I wasn't the only one in the building that wanted that removed. And so I went in, cut that line, the line we had been using for the west bank, which was a very general response. It was like, we support stability in the west bank, which protects Israeli security. And saying we support stability in west bank could be perceived with someone who is a pro Israel hardliner as somehow maybe if you're in that mindset condemning Israel because you're saying that we're making it unstable by doing, I think that's how it's perceived, even though I think it's a very standard kind of simple line. And by the next day, Wednesday, I was asked by people in the spokesperson office that who tried to draft that line and they wanted to connect with Milstein to discuss it around me. So if they're having discussions with Milstein on Wednesday and those three events happened in a row, and then on Thursday and Friday, which was by last happened to me last two days, I didn't know it was odd. The question I was receiving from senior number of people in leadership in NEA twice, once Thursday and again Friday morning, was, where did that line of Monday come from about forced displacement? I was like, that line on Monday, that was like four days ago. Why are people asking about it? Four days later, and I was asked to compile an entire history of where the evidence of how I cleared it. I was like, I have evidence of cleared. Hearing this. And Special Envoy Wyckoff and President Trump technically said something similar in the spring. So I'm very in line with what the administration had been saying, but that seemed to be the excuse at that point.

[Krystal Ball]

Can you explain what is your understanding of what the administration's policy is vis a vis Gaza?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Well, that's. It's a good question because I'm moving forward with my firing. I think it's going to become even more radical, which is, I know, shocking, but I think the language is going to lean into terms like Judea and Samaria or be more passive on these forced displacement, ethnic cleansing rumors that are coming through. So that's my concern moving forward. Now, in the past on west bank or two State solution, we didn't really have a straight response. It was always, hey, what's the review on Tuesday solution. And it would be something like, President Trump understands how. How. I don't want to use the right words, but it was something like, it's messy. So we're not there right now. We need to release hostages and get things settled.

[Krystal Ball]

So basically a deflection.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

A deflection, yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Okay. So now that you have been fired, you can speak freely. How long have you worked at State? How long have you worked at state?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

September 2024 was when I started.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

I started as the. This is not what I was technically hired for, but because of capacity issues, I ended up covering Lebanon, Jordan press right off the bat, which was a very quick start because Lebanon was very hot at the time. Got it. And then in January, I was officially asked to cover Israeli Palestinian affairs, which was odd. As a contractor, I just started. You don't typically put that person covering the house.

[Krystal Ball]

It's very sensitive.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So for your own personal. So basically what I heard is, oh, he's a Democrat. Of course we fired him. He didn't. So what's your response to that?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

That's not true. Because day to day, if I was an activist in the building, even the quote that Tommy used in the Washington Post piece, that I was some activist, I would have been fired much quicker. Just to be short, if I was going in fighting on every single line, that would have hit up really quick red flags. There were flags I did make. I would go up to leadership and be like, hey, on the podium. Because I don't like controlling press lines. I have no influence or policy. I'm just Controlling language. Right, so give me an example of like the.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, like what? Something you would flag.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Yeah, I was thinking about flag on the day to day lines. It was difficult because I'm going through a clearance process process. But I would look back, I would look at the guidance and I'd be like, this is pretty hard line. And I would brief it like I was doing my job. At the same time I would go behind the scenes and be like, hey, these lines are. At the very least they're not very empathetic like when we're discussing fame. And a month ago I was worried that the language was just like if you want to do a hard line language on the podium, you can acknowledge that you're seeing horrific photos before you make your argument argument. But that was even happening. So I was like, we. On the strategic level there's a moral imperative. But on a strategic level it just looks terrible at the podium.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's talk a little bit more about that moral imperative. We can put this next element up on the screen. I suspect you probably have seen this news this morning. This is just horrific video of these are a combination of journals and medical work personnel and people who are there trying to rescue people who are on the scene. This is a double tap strike. There's been a documented history of the IDF using these double tap strikes, not only to kill whoever they originally wanted to kill, but then to kill any rescuers who are coming to the scene. Something that's been reported out. You obviously part of what got you in trouble was just the very basic, hey, we express condolences for these journalists who were killed. And we know there have been hundreds of journalists who have been killed in the context of the Israelis targeting them inside of Gaza. How, as a professional did you grapple with your own sort of moral standing on this topic? And I don't say this to put you on the spot. I'm just genuinely curious day to day as someone who, who's trying to go in there and do the best you can and figure out, okay, what is the administration saying and what is our line for journalists? How are you absorbing those images and how are you thinking about your own sort of role in this capacity?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

No, it's a very good question. And in terms of my personal views, they're not wrong. I just didn't show it as often day to day when I was doing my job. So it was an issue and it was something that particular colleagues we would discuss. Cause I wasn't the only one. Cause it could be the Israel file. But it could be another one too, throughout the building. So there was two, I think, response to that. One, like I said, the last thing was I was flagging with people in leadership that I would trust that try to make small changes. I do think those small changes do matter, not just because you're an activist in the building, but because it's in line with US interests, because you can just be outside protesting, but you're just outside. Right. So I think that's important to have that back balance. And then two, this is a very more strategic response that I stepped back and looked at President Trump's words and if you look, we started with a ceasefire in that context and in the region, we were talking with the Iranians, for example. So I had on a macro level some hopes that even though these lines are difficult right now, in this moment, there could be a chance that something could come about. But it was getting worse, not better by the summer because by June we're bombing Iran. And now the embassy, Jerusalem really took over the pushback that I did see a little bit.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's talk about that because that's what I'm curious about. There has been a flippening, right, in the initial policy from ceasefire talking with the Iranians, talking with Putin to now, it's like the opposite. So you talk about there, the embassy in Jerusalem. Jerusalem. What was your observation, having seen that from the inside, how did we go from Steve Witkoff constantly going to Doha talking about ceasefires or meeting with the Iranians to then using that as cover to bomb them, and then also for basically allowing Mike Huckabee to have carte blanche over the Israel policy?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

That's good question. So on the White House level, I can't say cuz President Trump, I don't know what phone calls he's having day to day that like that's shifting his direction. But on my end, what I'm noticing is is people werei remember people when President Trump was elected, inaugurated, people were happy that the Pompeos and the Boltons and Nikki Haleys were gone. All true. These are all positive developments. And then you would see Elon was talking to certain Iranians at one end. And so they're really small. And Wyckoff wanted to make deals, wanted to end the war in Ukraine, wanted to end the war in Gaza, wanted to make a deal with Iran. AUDIENCE so I do think that the personnel is still an issue. People are glad that John Bolton might not be there, but having Secretary Rubio and Huckabee is kind of the same Thing, but a more sneaky level. Right. It's not as in your face as Bolton, but Secretary Rubio does kind of mirror some of President Trump's language. He wants peace. He wants to end wars. But if you look at his team, it's all a number of Heritage Foundations guys. Now you can say it's his prerogative. Of course it's. President Trump won. He's gonna have Heritage foundation guys on his team. But on foreign policy, that's not in line with what his agenda was supposed to be. And the same thing goes with Ambassador Huckabee there. So they're gonna say that I was some political activist. I think they're the political activists that are undermining what President Trump claimed to have wanted and campaigned on initially. Got it.

[Krystal Ball]

With regard to Huckabee, we saw one moment where there was a little bit of pushback from him on the Israelis after they had what had, like, bombed a church, right? Yeah.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

It was Christians.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was some sort of statement that went out. And then after that, he just went back to being, you know, totally on board with the most extreme versions of the Netanyahu government from the inside. What were the issues that were most difficult for this administration to grapple with? Because it seemed like, yeah, when Christians were being killed and attacked, that was one that was hard for them. Them to ignore and hard for them just to accept. Were there other things like that that you saw that were, like, a little bit difficult for them to just totally do? The pro Israel spin on the Christian.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Thing was the only Christians being targeted by settlers in the west bank and the church in Gaza was the only time I saw some verbal accountability. He even had a statement. I was shocked at the time. That was like, houses of worship must be protected in. And I don't remember the exact language. We brought up mosques. I'm like, well, there's more you can say there. So that was the only accountability that I saw. What was frustrating is that every time there was a settler attack that was horrific, or the case with the journalists, or just your terrible airstrike that killed X number of Palestinians in Gaza, it was always deferred to Israel. And so it was like, well, we can defer to the government of Israel to explain their strike.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, okay, so then here's the question. So did you work on any other countries while you were in State? Any other portfolios?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

It was Lebanon, Jordan. I started for a few months, but that shifted by.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So based on your observation, is there any country else in the world that we treat with the same level of.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Deference outside of the state. No.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Give me an example from on the inside.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

No, no. So if there, if someone had an issue, we would like, we would always have our own intelligence or our own commentary on every issue. Now, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but like in the Lebanon, Jordan case, maybe we would have a lot of our lines had accountability. Like, we would say, again, it's a different administration. And again, there are issues there, too, obviously, but just terms of, like, language. And again, I'm working with words, not with policy, so I'll use that as an example. But there would be airstrikes against, like, these Roman ruins in Lebanon. Then they would be like, oh, these sites need to be protected, or journalists must be protected. And we would have those lines built in very easily. It was very, like, made sense. But we're immediately like, even the case with Anas, the line that our response was like, don't respond. We don't know what he did. You're already preempting the refer to Israel line. It's not like, oh, let's check.

[Krystal Ball]

You could say, before they even came out, before they even came out, Hamas.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Yeah, yeah, we were even. Yeah, they're already saying, what did he do? And so it's like, okay, let's say you're the U.S. government. You want to do your due diligence. You don't want to go out. You don't have to respond right away. You're not tweeting your policy. If you want to say, hey, let's give it 48 hours, we'll check our sources. And then on Tuesday at the daily press briefing, then we'll give condolences. That I would understand. But they weren't even doing that. It was like, he probably did something. And then the next day, Israel comes out with those.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So it's just total, total difference.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

The total difference.

[Krystal Ball]

We witnessed some of this publicly in the context of the decision to join Israel in striking Iran. Tulsi Gabbard famously testified, hey, you know, we don't see any indication that they're pursuing a nuclear weapon. Then the justification given by the Trump administration was actually reliant on Israeli intelligence versus our own intel assessment. Were you witness to any of that and how that played out in terms of internally?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Right. Well, it went from, there are people like, I mean, I wasn't working on that file per se, but obviously you have. Your colleagues are in the building, you talk to people working on it and whatnot. And what I would hear is that it went from certain people being like, oh, we're close, what the next steps were on the negotiations to all of a sudden like oh well even certain people were closer to the administration. Oh well, Iran didn't respond to, to the deal we have on the table. That was like two weeks ago. Those same people might have said, oh, we might get a deal done. So it was quick to follow. It's a very like on a more macro level, it's more like a MAGA thing, right? You kind of like you're there with them when the talks are happening, they're with them when the bombs are dropping. But on the level of the intelligence and Tulsi just on a personal front, that was ridiculous because she through automatically undermining her own words from the, I think was a congressional discussion.

[Krystal Ball]

So yeah, from just months earlier. Were there people. So we talked about like some of the problems and Huckbee effectively taking over a lot of policy vis a vis Israel. Were there people who you worked with or who you interacted with who were really trying to take a different approach, who were upset about the, you know, using diplomacy with Iran as basically cover to allow Israel to bomb them? Who were using, you know, looking to acknowledge journalists shouldn't be murdered during a war? Were there people who were looking for that different approach and who were committed to it and sort of fighting that fight on the inside?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

In general, I think the political appointees do have the lead. So it's difficult to make those changes. But when you have influence, even on a mid level, me as a press officer, you can have those discussions. There are people that like, yeah, were political appointees that you have a sit down discussion with and be like, hey, this isn't right. And there were actually people that were easier to talk to than others. Right? You knew who to talk to. Like it was, it was a bit of a tightrope constantly of like, okay, like even saying this with this person might be, might be a flag, but with this person I can have this discussion. And it was, sometimes it was, it could have been effective. And I think those small changes, I know people on the outside might be like why were you there? Or whatever, but those small changes do make a difference because then someone says something about hey, this airstrike was wrong or we have provided condolences that leads to then journalists being able to provide accountability because they'll say hey, you said X then, right? If you go full hard line then that's your policy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So is that your assessment now with your firing that's where you think things. I mean it's already kind of was the policy, but you just think it'll be even more managed.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Yeah, like if you're. It is. So if, if, if the, my replacement or whoever goes in front of me, who knows, I'm not sure what's going to happen happen. I think they realize that it's going to be a political point here or what? I'm not sure. But no one's going to want to push back after what happened to me. And I wasn't someone who was a random press officer. I was pretty well established. I was the guy not only was doing the longest briefings, I had my colleagues in the room. I had to do a full 20 minute briefing with the spokesperson, whereas someone else might be much shorter. I was also the person who, who was on a social level organizing the happy hours just internally or with reporters. I was like in a position of. I felt very secure and I was close with a lot of colleagues. And to go from that and firing me very quickly, I think it sends a chilling effect through the building and an NEA of toe the line. And now what's the spokesperson gonna do? They're listen to the next press officer or are they gonna call the David Milsteins of the world or him specifically before he goes to the podium to make sure he's covered.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. And do you think that was part of the intent in firing you was to send that chill?

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Oh, I do, yeah. Send that 100%.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well Chad, we appreciate you joining us man. It was a lot of insight. I think the audience will find it very insightful.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I certainly did. Thank you.

[Shahed Ghreshi]

Thank you for having me.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Thanks so much for watching guys. We appreciate it. See you tomorrow.

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Shahed Ghreshi]

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