8/25/25: Trump Floats Chicago Occupation, Bill Maher Warns of Trump Coup, Saagar Debunks Ghislaine Testimony

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar — August 25, 2025

Episode Theme:
A deep dive into the latest moves by the Trump administration threatening to expand military deployments to Chicago, Bill Maher’s warnings of a “slow-moving coup,” and a critical look at Ghislaine Maxwell’s newly released testimony. The hosts dissect the legal, political, and societal ramifications, debunk myths, and hold powerful figures to account with trademark skepticism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Plan to Deploy the National Guard to Chicago

[04:52-14:34]

• Summary:
  Saagar and Krystal break down President Trump’s announcement of plans to expand National Guard deployments — after D.C. and L.A., Chicago is said to be next. The discussion explores both the mechanics and motivations behind these actions.

• Key Insights:

  • Trump frames the move as addressing crime and safety in cities with Democratic leadership, specifically calling out the "grossly incompetent" Chicago mayor and championing his alleged support among Black voters.
  • Reporting from both The Washington Post and Fox News is cited to connect the dots between military deployments, legal frameworks, and political intent. The legality hinges on distinctions between D.C., which is federal territory, and cities like LA and Chicago, where deployment must operate under different (Title 32 Section 502F) authority.
  • Krystal points out: “There is a prohibition under Posse Comitatus that the federal government can't even mobilize National Guard for civilian law enforcement purposes. They're currently being mobilized under...Title 32, Section 502F authority... So that would be the deployment. But even if it were to come about, it would not be even remotely like Washington because you can't quite literally cannot federalize the Chicago Police Department" [10:01].
  • Both hosts agree the moves are largely performative, politically motivated shows of force, not real solutions to crime or homelessness.

• Notable Quote:

  • Saagar: “It’s not about crime. I think we can all be honest about this has nothing to do with crime. This is about domination. This is about a show of force.” [14:00]

2. The Legality and Politics Behind Deploying Troops

[08:08-13:57]

• Legality:

  • Legal loopholes are being used for deployment, but strong opposition from Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker and Chicago’s mayor. The approach mirrors contentious LA deployments more than D.C.
  • Republican governors in 19 states reportedly cooperating, but blue state leaders are pushing back hard.

• Politics:

  • The targeting of Democratic strongholds is emphasized, with hosts urging listeners not to be swayed by the “crime” talking point.
  • Saagar: “Imagine if you had a Kamala Harris or Joe Biden administration that was deploying the National Guard into red states to enforce Covid rules; everybody would be freaking out.” [17:53]

---

3. Is Crime the Real Issue? A Breakdown of Urban Life and Political Narratives

[16:35-26:50]

• Hosts’ Debate:

  • Krystal acknowledges challenges in blue cities — taxes, cost of living, public safety — but argues that simply blaming crime is misleading.
  • Saagar consistently pushes against legitimizing the move as truly anti-crime, stating, “If he cared about homelessness...Republicans wouldn’t have stripped a billion dollars from the D.C. budget.” [20:00]
  • Their debate illustrates diverging left/right narratives, touching on gun laws, social policy, BLM, addiction, cashless bail, and juvenile justice.

• Notable Quotes:

  • “If you want to get violent crime down...let's have European style gun laws. Let's have European style social safety nets.” — Saagar [18:48]
  • Krystal: “Culturally, juveniles here today are not getting prosecuted. Juvenile delinquency is a genuine BLM creation, like from 2020 post on...” [26:50]
  • Both ultimately agree the National Guard “is not the solution.” [24:26, 28:22]

---

4. Wes Moore’s Opposition & Risks of Normalizing Domestic Military Force

[30:33-35:30]

• Maryland Governor Wes Moore appears (audio):

  • Strongly opposes the deployment for being unsustainable, unconstitutional, disrespectful to the Guard, and a distraction from real issues.
  • “To ask these men and women to do a job that they're not trained for is just deeply disrespectful...” — Wes Moore [30:33]

• Hosts’ Reactions:

  • Krystal and Saagar explore political repercussions; question whether such tactics might backfire politically, especially as public polling is split nearly 50/50.

---

5. Bill Maher on “Slow-Moving Coup” — Is There a Threat to Democracy?

[38:32-45:51]

• Bill Maher’s Concern:

  • On his show, Maher claims the normalization of military force and masked agents in cities is part of a “slow-moving coup,” laying groundwork for retaining power post-election.
  • “Create a masked police force. Get people used to looking at that...So you have in the Capitol a sort of permanent police presence. So when an election dispute might come up...I just don't think they're ever going to take power...” — Bill Maher [38:42]

• Host Critique:

  • Krystal criticizes Maher’s inconsistency (“If you believe Trump is the new Hitler, why would you go have dinner with him?”) but acknowledges his underlying point is worth considering.
  • Saagar: “It’s buffoonish...but they are gonna be armed, apparently, starting this week... It’s not hard to imagine some sort of disastrous conflagration which creates way more chaos...I think that's part of the danger.” [43:30-46:50]

---

6. National Guard, Social Order, and the American Instinct

[47:37-52:20]

• Societal Reflection:

  • Krystal: "A lot of people will choose safety over freedom, and we've seen that over and over again." [50:10]
  • The hosts reflect on historical parallels (Kent State, 1970s unrest) and warn about fueling conditions for future crackdowns, regardless of party in power.

• Political Tactics Across Parties:

  • Both note bipartisan willingness to use emergency powers — referencing National Guard deployments both for COVID and civil unrest (2020).

---

7. Ghislaine Maxwell Testimony — Saagar Debunks

[55:14-68:25]

• Summary of Testimony:

  • Saagar breaks down the newly released transcripts of Ghislaine Maxwell’s proffer session with DOJ.
  • Maxwell exonerates all powerful figures (Trump, Prince Andrew, Bill Gates) and downplays any wrongdoing, instead painting Epstein as a misunderstood financial whiz.
  • Notably, she denies any knowledge of the infamous surveillance cameras in Epstein’s homes, contradicting massive evidence.

• Debunkings & Exposures:

  • “Here is a picture from Jeffrey Epstein's bedroom with a mounted surveillance camera above his bed...Here’s 10 photos of cameras in there. So did those cameras show up after you built the houses?” — Krystal [57:38]
  • Both hosts lambast DOJ's light questioning and the absurdity of taking Maxwell’s word for anything.
  • Saagar: “This is a woman who wants a pardon...She’s trying to project, not just to Trump, but to anyone powerful: you're not gonna have a problem with me. Your secrets are safe with me.” [61:02]

• Notable Quotes:

  • “Everything we ever did was above board. Every connection that he ever had to quote Intelligence...is quote bullshit because he would have bragged to me about it.” — Krystal, mocking Maxwell’s rationale [64:07]
  • Saagar: “No explanation. He doesn’t challenge her...he really just did a horrible job.” [66:51]
  • On release of Epstein files to Congress, “Less than 1% of the files have been released. DOJ is stonewalling. The survivors deserve justice. The public deserves transparency.” — Krystal, relaying Rep. Ro Khanna’s call for transparency [68:36]

---

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• Trump on Chicago: “Chicago is a mess. You have an incompetent mayor, grossly incompetent. And we'll straighten that one out probably next. But they're wearing red hats. African American ladies, beautiful ladies are saying, please, President Trump, come to Chicago, please.” [05:12]
• Saagar on National Guard deployments: “This is about domination. This is about a show of force.” [14:00]
• Krystal on city quality-of-life: “No one can objectively look at Chicago and say, yeah, this place is doing well.” [21:09]
• Wes Moore: “It is not sustainable...You're not going to be able to do this in every single major American city...it's unconstitutional constitutional. It's a direct violation of the 10th Amendment.” [30:33]
• Bill Maher on slow-moving coup: “First, create a masked police force. Get people used to looking at that...So you have in the Capitol a sort of permanent police presence.” [38:42]
• Krystal on safety vs. freedom: “A lot of people will choose safety over freedom, and we've seen that over and over and over and over again.” [50:10]
• Krystal debunking Ghislaine Maxwell: “Here is a picture from Jeffrey Epstein's bedroom with a mounted surveillance camera above his bed...Here’s 10 photos of cameras in there.” [57:38]
• Saagar exposing the DOJ's softball approach: “He really just did a horrible job, like he really just did.” [66:51]

---

Conclusion

This episode is a comprehensive look at ongoing efforts by the Trump administration to normalize domestic military deployments, the weaponization of law enforcement under the guise of public safety, and the calculated political theater at play. Krystal and Saagar challenge prevailing narratives—on crime, city politics, and public order—while meticulously deconstructing efforts to sanitize the record on figures like Ghislaine Maxwell. The hosts leave listeners with an urgent question: Is America sleepwalking into dangerous precedents, and how will the public—and democracy—respond?

---

For further depth, listen to:

• National Guard deployments and legal discussion [04:52–14:34]
• Saagar and Krystal’s debate on crime and policy [16:35–28:33]
• Bill Maher’s “coup” warning and analysis [38:32–45:51]
• Ghislaine Maxwell debunk with Saagar [55:14–68:25]

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows uned ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] Good morning, everybody. Happy Monday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Indeed we do many things to discuss this morning. We have Trump announcing plans to do to Chicago what he's already done in D.C. and LA Sagar and I will have a chat about that one. Ghislaine Maxwell's interview was released. A lot to say about that one. You know, you should definitely take the word of a sex criminal for sure.

[Krystal Ball]

I'll, I'll break it down.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Should definitely take that one at face value. Okay. The US is taking a 10% equity stake in intel, actually. Very interesting move. A lot to discuss there and some broader economic indicators we want to take a look at as well. Zoran is facing a new scandal over how much he can bench, whether he.

[Krystal Ball]

Can bench at all. Whether he can bench at all.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And he also had this big scavenger hunt in New York City. Thousands of people turned out. So kind of an interesting development with regard to his campaign too. Meanwhile, Eric Adams, yet another corruption scandal encircling his campaign. The details are preposterous, just utterly ridiculous, which is kind of par for the course for Eric Adams. So we'll dig into all of that. I'm taking a look today at modern day Holocaust denial with this starvation denial in Gaza. And we have a special guest, this will be, I think, some pretty significant news, who was fired from the State Department apparently for his views on Israel. So, so he is gonna join us and it's his first interview that he's given. Right on.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I believe any sort of podcast.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Or cable news or anything like that.

[Krystal Ball]

We were able to arrange it after he was fired. And so, yeah, trying to break some news here over at Breaking Points, which is a good reminder, by the way. Thank you to everybody who's been signing [e-mail] and help supporting the show. It's because of you that we become the first place to be able to interview, do some newsmaking stuff here, have people in power actually pay attention. I don't think it is an accident that he reached out to us for very first thing after talking to the Washington Post for first on camera interview. And so that's what you guys enable. BreakingPoints.com if you're able. Otherwise, by the way, no worries. If you can't afford it, just please hit subscribe on the YouTube for the YouTube button. I believe that's what it is. Hit subscribe for our YouTube channel. And if you're listening to this as a podcast, just go ahead and send this episode, any episode, whatever your favorite interview it is, to a friend or family member. It really helps us grow by word of mouth. So with that, let's get to the show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, so President Trump announcing that he is planning to expand his National Guard deployments, of course, started in la, both with National Guard, federalizing the National Guard there and calling up active duty, calling in active duty Marines here in D.C. of course, we've been dealing with that over the past couple of weeks. And next, he says, is Chicago. Let's take a listen.

[Donald Trump]

And we haven't had to bring in the regular military, which we're willing to do if we have to. And after we do this, we'll go to another location and we'll make it safe. Also, we're going to make our country very safe. We're going to make our cities very, very safe. Chicago is a mess. You have an incompetent mayor, grossly incompetent. And we'll straighten that one out probably next. But they're wearing red hats. African American ladies, beautiful ladies are saying, please, President Trump, come to Chicago, please. I did great with the black vote, as you know, and they want something to happen. So I think Chicago will be our next and then we'll help with New York.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So apparently this plan has been weeks in the making. We can put the reporting up from the Washington Post. On the screen they write, pentagon plans military deployment in Chicago as Trump eyes crackdown. Here are some of the details they say the Pentagon has for weeks been planning a military deployment to Chicago. As President Trump says he wants to crack down on crime, homelessness and undocumented immigration in a model that could later be used in other major cities. Officials familiar with the matter said the planning, which has not been previously disclosed, involves several options, including mobilizing at least a few thousand members of the National Guard as soon as September to what is the third most populous city in the United States. They go on to say an additional piece of reporting with regard to the deployment here in D.C. that troops here are soon going to be allowed to carry firearms, which is a change to their initial orders, which. Let me give you one more piece of reporting here. This from Jackie Heinrich over at Fox News in a relatively lengthy Twitter post. We could put this up on the screen and I'll give you the TLDR here. So she reports that 1700 National Guardsmen are set to mobilize in 19 different states in the coming weeks to assist DHS amid sweeping federal interagency crime and immigration crackdown. Documents obtained by Fox News show planning for activations in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming. So these are states with Republican governors. So this would be presumably in cooperation with the federal government and saga. Turning back to Chicago, this would be, in terms of the legal framework, this would be more akin to the deployment in LA, because in D.C. there, you know, the federal government is more directly involved. They have more legal authority. Now, even here it's supposed to be a quote, unquote, emergency. Unfortunately, the courts have sort of broadly defined what constitutes an emergency. There may be a court challenge there as well. But the LA National Guard federalization and deployment was much more legally contested. And still there was at least one federal judge that actually said, you can't go forward with this. So this would be, you know, this is the LA model now coming to shore.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right. And it hasn't wrapped, actually, that court case, as I understand it, what I. What I. And this is very complicated, so just stick with us. But on dc, people need to remember that because it's technically under federal rule, what it allows is the federalized of the MPD in a quote, unquote emergency. But that emergency has to be renewed by Congress every 30 to 45 days. There's obviously still open question as to whether that is even going to pass. Obviously, most Republicans are probably going to go for it. But that is why the D.C. federal, the D.C. government and police department can come under genuine federal control and they have much more leeway for the mobilization of the National Guard on top of that. So, I mean, we can, I've said here, I think the mobilization is stupid, broadly, especially because, you know, in my traipsing around the city, the only place I can find these guys is down by the National Mall protecting the food trucks and the tourists. So I guess, thank you for keeping us safe.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I have actually yet to see them.

[Krystal Ball]

Take a ride down to the Mall. You'll see plenty of them. They're rolling around, they're all eating halal from the halal truck. So I mean, I guess that's great. Yes, apparently they'll be carrying weapons now. I mean, the White House is like, oh, well, we have. What is it? We've arrested all these people and there hasn't been a murder in D.C. in nine days, which I mean, apparently D.C. was averaging like two murders a day or murder every two days. So you can give them that. I guess no one's exactly sure on the actual causal effect, but Chicago is a whole other different story. And I think that's actually. If you read the Jackie Heinrichs reporting, what you're seeing is about that assistance with ICE and with dhs. But honestly, even that is very dicey legally because there is a prohibition under Posse Comitatus that the federal government can't even mobilize National Guard for civilian law enforcement purposes. They're currently being mobilized under something called. Let me. I have it in front of me. It's called Title 32, Section 502 F authority to which Posse Comitatus does not apply. Now, that section actually sets out, quote, required drills and training for the National Guard. And it says a member of the National Guard may be ordered to perform training or other duty in addition to their regular drills and annual training as prescribed by the Secretary of Defense. They're saying that they could be used under, for federal benefits, remember this, for things like, quote, homeland security, operation counter drug, airport security, border support and natural disaster relief. So that would be the deployment. But even if it were to come about, it would not be even remotely like Washington because you can't quite literally cannot federalize the Chicago Police Department for a. Like, for example. They can't here in D.C. they're rolling back like cashless bail. That's something that they're allowed to do because they have federal authority. And same with the police commissioner who can report up over there. It is entirely a matter of the locality that reports up from Chicago Police to the Mayor, Brandon Johnson. And also people should keep in mind, like the Governor and the Mayor both have both openly spoken against this and it would be very different, much more akin to Los Angeles where National Guardsmen can like guard federal property. I don't even actually know federal properties in Chicago, but anyway, so like they can do that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Courts and things like that.

[Krystal Ball]

Anyway, they can do that if they want to. They can help, quote, assist with ICE operations, although apparently even that is like, like a little dicey in terms of the way that it all goes about. So it would be a deployment and almost certainly at this point, as we know, for show purposes, which is mostly what we see from the administration.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's right. I remember when we were digging into the details with regard to the legality of the la, the California deployment, it's supposed to be done in conjunction with the Governor. Like it's really supposed to be the governor who asked the president. And that's a key piece of what was being debated in court. And as I said, one federal court judge said, no, this is not lawful. Then you had at the appeals level, they issued an injunction against, you know, saying, okay, well, we're gonna allow it to continue while this all plays out in court. But this is continuing to play out in court. I'll save some of my commentary because we're gonna talk about Bill Maher and his commentary on this, and then we can talk a little bit more broadly about the implications. Obviously, I find this, you know, incredibly ominous. It's both a combination of buffoonish and pointless and a waste of money. And also, you know, quite, in my opinion, ominous to see these normalization of the military in American streets for domestic law enforcement. All of these masked UP agents. There was actually a horrible incident just recently where two guys who disguised themselves as law enforcement were pounding on the door of a homeowner. Homeowner smartly doesn't let them in and ends up actually shooting and killing them. There have been other instances of mass people coming in claiming to be ice, claiming to be law enforcement. And it's not to say that has never happened before in the past, but when you have the normalization of these masked unidentified agents who refuse to even tell you what agency they're with, let alone what they're there for, let alone show you a warrant, you know, nobody should be surprised that those are some of the consequences that unfold. I can go ahead and put up on the screen A4, which is Governor Kritzker of Illinois's response. He says the state of Illinois at this time has received no requests or outreach from the federal government asking if we need assistance, and we have made no requests for federal intervention. The safety of the people of Illinois is always my top priority. There's no emergency that warrants the president of the US Federalizing the Illinois National Guard, deploying the National Guard from other states, or sending active duty military within our own borders. Donald Trump is attempting to manufacture a crisis, politicize Americans who serve in uniform, and continue abusing his power to distract from the pain he's causing. Families will continue to follow the law, stand up for the sovereignty of our state, and protect Illinoisans. Is that Illinois? Illinoisans?

[Krystal Ball]

Is it Chicagoan? All right, people there can let us.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Know in any case, obviously not lost on anyone that it's blue states that are facing these military deployments. Even though, look, it's not about crime. I think we can all be honest about this has nothing to do with crime. This is about domination. This is about a show of force. This is, I think in some ways, yes, a distraction from. You didn't like the storyline about Epstein and other things going on. I think that's true too. But at bottom it really is not about crime because if it was, this would be and it would be an entirely different approach.

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[Krystal Ball]

Violent crime is not the only metric. Quality of life crime has to of course Be one. There's no question quality of life crime, especially in the biggest cities, which are all Democratic or blue or liberal in some form, are much worse to be in. Now, I think there's a lot of questions as to why, and Chicago is a very good example. I mean, this is part of why. Honestly, Chicago's probably the best pick out of all of them because it's the one with the most clownish. Mayor Brandon Johnson. What does he have an 80% disapproval rating, 20% approved. He basically was elected as some sort of like DSA BLM style candidate. And he's been a disaster, mostly for the city. Don't listen to me. Listen to the people who actually are his own constituents who can't stand the violent crime rate there has technically fallen. But if you look at the overall spike in homicides, I mean, they were 60% higher in 2021 than in 2019. That feeling and general safety in the city of Chicago is one that was the number one cause for people who were leaving the city, which is destroying their tax base. That is empirically the same problem across the entire major cities in America. This isn't just about Memphis or any of the other places. And it's also a bit of a cop out, in my opinion, because Memphis never claimed to be the large. Memphis is not the third largest city in the United States. It's not a center of commerce.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, it's lost on no one. These are all blue states. I'm not, I'm not disputing. Can we like just be honest about what's going on here? And can we also be honest about. Imagine if you had a Kamala Harris administration or a Joe Biden administration that was deploying the National Guard into red states, enforced Covid rules. I mean, everybody would be freaking out. And yet, you know, this pretext of, oh, it's about crime. That's just complete and total bullshit. DC Is not even like in the top list of cities for violent crime in the country.

[Krystal Ball]

I am not saying that this is all about crime. What I am saying is that I think it's bad and a bad idea for Democrats particularly to not acknowledge the fact that most of their cities suck to live in. And I think that that is one of those which needs to be centered at the heart of blue governance. This is one of the things I appreciate.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think it's true. No, it is true.

[Krystal Ball]

These are all like net population law studies.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And here's the thing, if you want to get violent crime down, but it's.

[Krystal Ball]

Not just about violent.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If you wanna get crime down to like European capital levels, then, okay, let's have European style gun laws. Let's have European style social safety guns.

[Krystal Ball]

It's a canary. Because nobody wants to have. We've always lived in a gun ownership country, haven't always had this level of violent crime. Now, the point is, if you go back to the, let's say the year 2000, if you check both violent crime and just generally. Were you walking down the street seeing homeless vagrants constantly harass people on the street? It was not happening. We had plenty of guns. Yes, there are 400 million guns in this. Our violent crime rate and our homicide rate is always going to be orders of magnitude. That's why it's not necessarily the metric. Why you need to look at. You need to look at the fact that a lot of these places have sky high taxes, they have sky high cost of living, and they're very unpleasant to be in.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And so the National Guard and federal. That's the thing is like, I just. I hear you on the crime. We had the debate, like, we can continue to talk about this. This is not about crime.

[Krystal Ball]

I agree.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is about domination. This is about dominating Democratic cities and states. It's about a show of force. It's about what he can get away with. And it's about, yes, distracting from whatever else. So I just don't even want to like.

[Krystal Ball]

But that's the problem.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't even.

[Krystal Ball]

That's what I want you to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, it's not. Because the minute that you go down this rabbit hole of, oh, well, let's talk about what's really causing crime in D.C. or Chicago versus Memphis, blah, blah, blah, you are playing into his narrative that this has anything to do about crime and it does not. If he cared about homelessness, if he cared about juvenile delinquency, any of these things, the Republicans wouldn't have stripped a billion dollars from the D.C. budget. You know, they wouldn't have cut so many of these programs that were just slashed during Doge across the board. He wouldn't have pardoned the January 6th violent rioters. So that's why I just have no use for this conversation that even like gives credence to the idea this has anything to do with crime. I'll give you the counter case. It doesn't.

[Krystal Ball]

The counter case for that is that Trump still has the approval rating of where Obama was in his second term. And the fact is, is that and was elected with a popular vote of some 1%, the first president since 2004, for a Republican to actually win it. Why did all of that happen now? Kamala is a part of it. I think the city governance is a big part. Especially if you look at the blue state swings towards Donald Trump. People are broadly fed up. And if you look at the fact that with these polling around this, people say it is a use of taxpayer dollars, people say that it's buffoonish, but they acknowledge the crime and if it was being done properly, they would be very okay with it. Now I'm against just generally the federalization and I agree that it's being buffoonish and the way that it is being done is for political purposes. The reason why I think again, the crime, the vagrancy, the homelessness, the drug addiction, all of that has to be put on the table is no one can objectively look at Chicago and say, yeah, this place is doing well, so.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Put it on the table. It has nothing to do with this. But even what you said, it's a totally separate topic.

[Krystal Ball]

See, what you said is exactly the problem. You said, oh, a billion dollars, if money could fix dc DC spends more per capita per student than any other public school district in the entire nation. It has nothing to do with money. It's about, it's literally about criminal enforcement.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It definitely does have to do with money. And by the way, once again, crime is way down in D.C. d.C. Is from 2023. D.C. is not low. We have the lowest on track with the lowest level of violent crime in 30 years in this state, Baltimore, same thing. Baltimore is having their lowest level of homicides in like 50 years.

[Krystal Ball]

And actually the Baltimore agent is the one who's prosecuting the down.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There's significant. Okay, so you don't need to send in the friggin National Guard. This is the thing is like that's, this is not about crime. So yes, do I think that there is, you know, narrative about, oh, Democratic cities in decline and chaos, blah blah, blah, a lot of which is bullshit and overblown, by the way. But do I think there's a narrative about that that has some political salience? Yes. Let's be honest that this has nothing to do with solving that problem. I don't think it's nothing to do with it.

[Krystal Ball]

I agree. I'm with you. I don't think that we're.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's it. That's all I want to do.

[Krystal Ball]

But I do think, I mean, again, it does drive me and a lot of other Republicans crazy when they look, I mean, like Washington, it's like, no, it sucks. It has Sucked for a long time. Chicago sucks. Like San Francisco sucks. There are parts of Chicago which are beautiful. When we were there, I was actually, wow, this is actually quite nice. A lot of the media narrative is wrong, but the overall per capita crime rate in many of these neighborhoods is a disaster. And that is the part where politically, again, you cannot just like, oh, it's not about crime if you don't have an answer to crime, because then Trump.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Is gonna win every single time crime is down. So clearly there are some answers to crime which are being, I mean, and that's the other thing is like, what frustrates me is when there's all this hand wringing about crime which justifiably, like, people deserve to be safe. They deserve to live in neighborhoods where they feel comfortable. Yes, on board with all of that. But then there's no willingness to talk about, you know, changing gun laws. Right. That's completely off the table. If you look at us, Illinois's got.

[Krystal Ball]

One of the strictest gun laws in the country.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If you look at us as a nation versus other countries around the world, the big outlier is in terms of gun ownership. So, you know, if we're gonna talk about why this country is overall so violent. And by the way, some of the red states have the highest crime rates in the country. If we wanna talk about that versus the rest of the world, you have to talk about guns. You have to talk about social safety net. You have to talk about the fact that we have this vast inequality and we have very little in terms of social safety net. We have very little in order to support people, including young people, who feel utterly hopeless. But instead we're just gonna like roll in the National Guard and pretend like that's any kind of a real solution. It's just so frustrating. Preposterous.

[Krystal Ball]

I think it's completely fair and it is true that the National Guard is not the solution. And I do think the gun thing has to be acknowledged. Obviously, we have 400 million guns in the country. I'm not for gun control also, by the way. It's just not gonn. And Illinois has some of the strictest gun laws in the entire nation. So within the framework of like, quote, the possible, where we're going to acknowledge, yes, we're going to have violent crime, we're never going to be a European capital. We don't live in Geneva, we don't live in Zurich, we don't live in Vienna, that's Tokyo. Any of these places. That is not politically feasible. What is feasible is the year 2000, in my opinion. And now we have to all ask how exactly did we get to this point? Here is the National Guard. I just. I continue to emphasize it for a sole reason. I continue to see this BLM style. Oh, it's all because of social. It's like. No, it's not. It's addiction, a huge part of it. And it's soft on crime policy. And the fact is, is that if you embrace, like a narrative of actually crime is down, when in reality it's still very high compared to 20%, especially 2000.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How does our incarceration rate compare to other countries?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, we have one of the higher.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Incarceration rates because we're soft on crime. That's nonsense.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, yeah, but there's been a great shift since the year 2020, of which the consequences have been disastrous. And it isn't just about incarceration. It is about.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Are still in place. Then why is crime. Because they're not being enforced, Sagar. I mean, I. Look, those policies, I'm not going to say that they don't have any impact. Okay. I think that would be dishonest. But I think if we talk about, okay, what has really changed between, like, let's say the year 2000 was the benchmark you set out, and now we are suffering through a national societal breakdown. Right. Inequality is skyrocketing.

[Krystal Ball]

That's part of it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Social misery and stress and. And political polarization, like all of these things are pulling us apart. It is no surprise that at a time when you had the COVID lockdowns and an additional level of stress and isolation and loneliness, that, yes, out of that you see a spike in crime, not to mention kids being out of school and all these sorts of things. So I'm not gonna say the policies don't matter, but I think the bigger picture is those broader societal trends, which is why this is not a blue state or red state or red city or blue city thing. It is a national epidemic that we struggle with, which has a lot of contributing factors, and none of which will be solved by the National Guard standing outside of Georgetown cupcakes.

[Krystal Ball]

One of the things you didn't mention is illegal immigration, which actually some of this probably will be targeted towards. And so that is an important part of the story as well, where you have a mass illegal immigrant population, which has ballooned since the year 2000. So, look, this is why, even if you look at violent crime compared to my benchmark, violent crime is actually, if you look at 2000. So it wasn't a Great year for violent crime. Like that's why it's not the right benchmark. The benchmark is quality of life. The quality of life has many different constituent parts to it. Inequality certainly. But again, like culturally, juveniles here today are not getting prosecuted. Juvenile, like delinquency is a genuine BLM creation. Like from 2020 post on here in Washington, ATV gangs, lawlessness, cashless bail. These are BLM policies directly implemented as a result of the protest, which have skyrocketed crime in New York city, in Washington D.C. chicago. Brandon Johnson, 2023, they went ahead and implemented cashless bail. I get it. If you think about cash bail, it sounds inequitable, but the consequence has been a disaster. And so I mean we covered that story of the guy who. What did he do? He like ran into a, it was in the state of Illinois, I believe. He like ran into some parade and killed a bunch of people released on bail. I mean these are cashless bail. This is always the issue is that we don't evaluate all of this like new age policy. Oh, we need to talk about addiction and not criminalize it. It's like look at skid row, look at San Francisco, look at the most non criminalized areas for people in addiction. It has destroyed the quality of life for the residents of those cities.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So we should definitely not criminalize addiction. We should have much more forceful rehab as you and I discussed. Again, I come back to the point. None of this has to do with the National Guard Fair. None of it. Yeah, none of it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's why I find it frustrating to even indulge the conversation when, when it's very clear what is being done here. The whole attempt is to get this conversation put on the table, even though Trump has no interest in solving it, has been more pro criminal than maybe any other president given the way that he's pardoned not only the J6 or but all these white collar criminal fraudsters who just pay the right person and are able to get their pardons. So that's my core frustration with the way this conversation is unfolding. Let me get to the West Moore part because this relates to what we're discussing. We can talk about Bill Maher and get into some of the sort of darker possibilities of what Trump is doing right now. So let's go and put a 5 up on the screen. Trump going directly after Westmore as governor of Maryland talked about as a presidential candidate, he's not really my style. He's a little too moderate, corporate, et cetera, et cetera. But in any Case Trump says Governor Westmore of Maryland has asked in a rather nasty and provocative tone that I walk the streets of Maryland with him. I assume he is talking about out of control, crime ridden Baltimore. As President, I would much prefer that he clean up this crime disaster before I go there for a walk. Westmore's record on crime is a very bad one unless he fudges his figures on crime like many of the other blue states are doing. But if Westmore needs help like Gavin Newscombe did in la, I will send in the troops which is being done in nearby DC and quickly clean up the crime. After only one week, there is no crime and no murder in dc. When it is like that in Baltimore, I would proudly walk the streets with the failing because of crime. Governor of Maryland P.S. baltimore is ranked the fourth worst city in the nation in crime and murder. Stop talking and get to work Wes. All then see you in the streets. And then he goes on to say, I gave Westmore a lot of money to fix his demolished bridge. Not even true, that came from Joe Biden, but. And he says I'll now have to rethink that decision. Okay, Wes Moore responded to this on the Sunday shows. Let's go ahead and take a listen to what he had to say. Are you so opposed to this deployment?

[Wes Moore]

Well, there's plenty of reasons. One, it is not sustainable. You cannot continue this type of pace of operations, particularly when it's costing over a million dollars a day in order to do this. The second, it's not scalable. You're not going to be able to do this in every single major American city, particularly when many of the cities that have the highest crime rates are the places that have actually deployed their national guards to Washington D.C. so who's going to go do the work in their cities? The third, it's unconstitutional constitutional. It's a direct violation of the 10th Amendment. The fourth reason is because it's deeply disrespectful to the members of the National Guard. You know, as someone who actually deployed overseas and served my country in combat, to ask these men and women to do a job that they're not trained for is just deeply disrespectful. And so when we're thinking about all of these lasting factors, when we're thinking about the fact that it serves as a distraction from the fact that the President's disastrous economic policies are making everything more expensive for everyday Americans, is making life harder for everyday Americans. There is a multitude of reasons that I am against this and I will not authorize the Maryland National Guard to.

[Krystal Ball]

Be utilized for this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So his reasons where he said it's unsustainable, it's not scalable, it's unconstitutional, and it's a distraction. So that was his take on all of that. I mean, look, none of which, you know, I mean, he didn't downplay that, obviously. Baltimore has long had a crime issue, although they have done a better job this year in particular, violent crime is.

[Krystal Ball]

They have done it. Yes. The social worker part of it is not the whole story. Prosecution is a big part of it, having dug a little bit into it. But, yeah, let's give it credit where it's due. I will say Moore also is diving into. What is it into the gerrymandering fight. And he's going to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's right.

[Krystal Ball]

There's only one Republican state in the state.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, there is. There is currently.

[Krystal Ball]

Sorry, no, only one. And they're just going to take it away.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They're going to get rid of that.

[Krystal Ball]

They're going to take it away. So race to the bottom, I guess. I mean, Maryland, it's been a blue state, I guess now for quite some time. Might as well just make it official. I think Moore is. I think he's quite talented, actually. I mean, I don't know. It's like you said, I'm a bit suspicious of the more corporatized element of it. And he does seem very cut of the mold of, like, exactly what the centrist Democrat would want and almost wears it on his sleeve a little bit about, like, practicing with the football squad and all of that, making it go quite viral. But, I mean, there's no question he's quite popular, actually, in the state. It is generally smaller. And in terms of national profile, I don't see it as much for him. Him as with Newsom. But if Trump picks a fight with him, obviously, then he's gonna get his.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That'd be very elevating for him. Yeah. And I think a lot of Democrats, ambitious Democrats, are looking at the Newsom model and they see that, like, this is working for him, you know, and I don't know why it took them this long to realize that, you know, trying to. Trying to troll Trump, like, get in his face, make a lot of noise, be controversial, obviously, that's what you have to do in this era. And so I think Wes Moore is trying to do it kind of his own version of that. And the fight that Trump has picked with him is obviously very elevating for him.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. Anyway, I think, broadly. Look. Yeah. To wrap up our Discussion. I agree. I think the National Guard and most Americans are smart. I've always believed that. I can see through a lot of what this is. Even people like me who are like, yeah, I think crime is a huge problem. I think illegal immigration and all of that is a huge problem. If they view it as showmanship and as not serious, then they're gonna get upset. I do wonder politically how it shakes out, cuz it sounds quote unpopular and all of that today. What I continue to wonder about is the actual merits of how the Democratic opposition fights this. And that's why, you know, that's part of what I thought our discussion is important for is if the alternative is seen as still like soft on crime, then it will be a genuine question at the ballot box and especially for the future of the discourse as to like what this will look like in terms of pre. Because we have to be honest, even if you look back at the height of blm, sending in troops to the cities was broadly popular and especially in retrospect, if you go back and now look some one or two years later on the question of that polling, people were very upset by the breakdown of social order. Chaos. And they're not going to pick in general, in my opinion, people will pick social order over everything. That is not actually a good societal natural instinct, but it is broadly true. The question politically is how this will sustain it. I think Gavin, one of the ways that he was smart was talking about rule of law and they weren't doing the BLM style. Like actually it's mostly peaceful. Most Democrats were criticizing the Mexican flag burning, you know, like the burning of the cars, rioting and any of that. That seems to be a politically palatable position that I think a lot of centrist, more Americans could go with. But it is still like a very live question today. I can see where the centrists are going, but I also see where the activist base to is going is. And so I'm still curious to see how that actually shakes out.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very different moment from the moment of COVID and blm because there is a sense that like, you know, things have calmed down in these cities and it's not this heightened moment that it was at that point in time. I was just looking. There is a little bit of polling. I mean, who knows how this shakes down what people really think in the long run and all of that. But data for progress found a majority of voters, 51% oppose the Trump administration taking over D.C. the police force and deploying the National Guard in the city. So 44% support, 51% oppose. That's basically right in line with Trump's approval rating. Yeah, so I think it really is just like a vector for it's negative polarization. Do you trust Trump or do you not trust Trump? And you've got a lot of people too who you know, think that it is indicative of authoritarian Trump is being authoritarian. 57% Trump is just doing this to distract from other issues. 51% More than half of voters of 51% also agree Trump is doing what's necessary to crack down on crime, though voters are closely divided, with 46% disagreeing with that statement.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's go ahead and move on to Bill Maher and then we can talk more about this. But in any case, he had a take on his show over the weekend, which in my opinion is interesting for Earth. A variety of reasons. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Bill Maher]

I don't know if I was the first one to use the phrase slow moving coup. I know I was using it before he was. Thank you. I know I was using it before he was president the first time. So maybe somebody got to it first, I don't know. And people were laughing at it. I mean, whenever I said he was never gonna concede power, they would say, oh, you smoked too much pot. Well, it turned out I smoked just the right amount of pot. He does this magic trick, you know, he's passing out pizza and it's all about big balls and we're all laughing at what's going on in D. He's passing out pizza to the troops. If there was a slow moving coup, let me just describe some of the steps and you tell me if I'm being paranoid. First, create a masked police force. Get people used to looking at that. Normalize snatching people off the street. Get them used to that. Normalize seeing the car, the National Guard and the military on the street. Then start talking about crime in the Capitol, which is basically, you know, it's always been a fairly crime ridden city. This is our nation's capital where elections are decided. And then have, because the crime is so bad, have other states start sending their troops, not just the national guard there in D.C. but now at least six other states are sending their troops, which then Trump can then federalize. So you're having many states troops on the ground there and now they're under federal control. So you have in the Capitol a sort of permanent police presence. So when an election dispute might come up, just hypothetically, I mean, I don't want to be a big pessimist and I'm going to pretend for the rest of the duration that the Democrats do have a chance of winning and they might win the next election. I just don't think they're ever going to take power. Power, because this is what's gonna happen, because I think this coup is gonna go off a lot smoother than the last one.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So what do you make of that saga?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, it just makes A lot of sense that if you believe that to go to the White House and to have dinner with that person, that's why I'm like, bill, come on here man. I mean, look, he can't have it both ways. You're either literally a fascist who's trying to take over the country, which I don't think is gonna happen, or we're all having dinner together and why wouldn't I go and have dinner? I mean it's. Well, if you believe that, would you really, quote, have dinner with anybody? I don't believe that for a second. That's why a lot of it just really seems to be centered around him personally and his own ego. So he's happy to talk about soft coups or whatever on his show. But if Trump were to invite him to the White House tomorrow, he would probably go and then he would say that there's a reason why it's cuz we all need to have conversations. And it's like, what are we doing here, man? And it's funny cause for me to be saying this, but I'm just, I know for me, I hate inconsistency. I hate people who are obviously just so wrapped up in their own ego and blowing with the wind. I mean, Bill Maher is probably, you know, the most like the best example of blowing, you know, whichever way the tide turns. He's trying to return to some more of his original, like more liberal roots and appear heterodox. But he was basically like a right winger for a year. Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The right was loving this fight.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Which is humiliating for them because it'll take like one guy says something like, oh my God, he's making so much sense. Bill Maher. Anyway, that's my own personal pet peeve. But yes, that's my Bill Marte.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean it wasn't just any dinner.

[Krystal Ball]

He went, yeah, that's right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

What was Kid Rock? He did. And he did. Dana White was there. But then afterwards he did a whole monologue about how charming Trump was and how funny he was and how why can't this guy be like the public guy, you know, I mean it was very fawning. And so. And the other thing is, to your point about the self importance, I mean these people act like they're like diplomats on some sort of a sensitive government mission. It was the same thing with Joe Amica, the way they phrase when they did their little trip to Mar a Lago.

[Krystal Ball]

To Mar A Lago.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He acts like this comedian with a once a week show going and meeting with Trump at Mar a Lago is like the Camp David Accords. I mean, it's just, it's so silly, it's so preposterous. But then, and yeah, if you do that and then you turn around and say, which by the way, I agree with what he's saying here. His language of it's a soft coup, a slow moving coup. I think that everything he said is reasonable considering what we experienced and saw on January 6 and the fact that there's a concerted plan now to roll out National Guard troops in blue cities and blue states across the country. But you don't have a lot of credibility on that when you're doing the nicey nice with him. As I just wanna say this again, comes to the difficulty that I have in trying to accurately assess the threat posed by the Trump administration. Because on the one hand, like we're here in D.C. the National Guard deployment is buffoonish. Like, it's silly, it's ridiculous. They're at mraps at Union Station and apparently on the National Mall and like roaming around Georgetown cupcake. I'm seeing videos of them just like going up and down escalators. It's ridiculous. On the other hand, they are gonna be armed, apparently, starting this week. You know, it's not hard to imagine some sort of disaster, disastrous conflagration, which creates way more chaos, way more, you know, violence or way more backlash or whatever it is. And part of you has to wonder if that's not part of the point, right? If that's not part of the desire is trying to stoke this sort of animosity and chaos in the streets. And then you do all he the point specifically about elections, and I think that one is a fair one too. Like are we gonna have this armed force in blue cities when it comes to election day to try to intimidate Democratic voters from going to the polls. I don't think that's preposterous to suggest, especially as right now we see the president manifesting concern about the midterms, saying he wants them to try to get 100 new Republican seats already casting doubt on mail in ballots, which by the way, he did excellent with mail in in ballots. He would have lost the election because of boomers. He would have lost the election without mail in ballots last time around. But in any case, this is all about stoking concern and being able to say after the fact that it was rigged. We see him going to red states and saying, you need to create new maps so we can get more Republican seats. So all of that is to say he's clearly concerned about the midterms. You now have this armed militarized force being deployed in cities across the country. It isn't crazy to say what is this all aiming to towards? And you have the buffoonery and the idiocy on the one hand and on the other hand you have a record of genuinely nefarious plots executed by this administration. And Trump being much more sort of unleashed this time around than the first time around. So I do give credence to what Bill is saying there, even as I acknowledge he's not the best messenger at this point.

[Krystal Ball]

I would say it is incorrect to rule a lot of that stuff out, considering a lot of the ways that administration has acted in its first nine months. I think the greatest danger is actually some sort of spontaneous incident. And like that's the one which look, it's fair. I mean, you talked about the mask thing. If you come to my door, I mean, especially after more recently that attack, whoever that weirdo was, the pro life guy who dressed as a police officer with a mask. Right. And who went to those politicians door.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's right.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, look, even if you're, you know, have that on and I'm looking at the camera, I'm like, look, name, badge number, like who are you? You know, like there needs to be some serious vetting before you open your door for anybody. And I would advise that for everybody out there, especially after that type of incident. And the same with some sort of mass incident. Right, so exactly. In that scenario it's dangerous. And there were protocols, all of there for a reason that is setting up the, you know, the ground for or something that could go very, very wrong. That's part of the reason why people look at Kent State, you know, for example, as you know, kind of a horror in America, in modern American history. And it's like nobody was going there to kill them. It's just that it erupted in a bad, in chaos and people ended up dead. That's the issue. And you know, like, it's not like there wasn't like genuine violence or whatever. But the point is that people looked at that and said, hey, we should not try to normalize this. And that's exactly what I think the danger is, is that the longer that you have, let's say a deployment or armed deployment or something like this in a 90% blue city, it does seem like it's only a matter of time until somebody, you know, somebody crazy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's a proclamation, it's A probation.

[Krystal Ball]

And then, you know, same if from there and then from there, who knows what's gonna happen, Right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

That's not excusing somebody who's gonna attack them or whatever. I'm just, you know, it's obvious it could happen.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

And so that. I think that's probably the thing I would be the most afraid. I am most afraid of is especially for the deployment here, because you just don't know. Like, you know, things. Crazy stuff can happen and has happened many times, and you have people out there, you just have no idea. I mean, you had the whole weather. I was. I've been thinking a lot about how America really reminds me today of the 1970s. And the more that we, like, cling to that framework, it's really important. I mean, the Weather Underground, like, tried to blow up the Capitol like crazy. A group of just 20 people can cause. Can do some crazy shit and can actually cause, like, some widespread social panic and chaos. Yeah, that's very possible. And then from there, it's not just a civil liberties question. It's really more about how and what. How are we going to deal with this going forward? And then with the administration, you can see, like, they're not afraid of picking a fight where they think they can come out politically on top. From my conversation with them, they think this is the best thing that they've done so far.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They used big balls getting beaten up as, like a Reichstag fire to deploy the National Guard. They did. And that's not to say that it was like a setup. I'm just saying they used that provocation.

[Krystal Ball]

Sure.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like we're sending in the National Guard now. Let's say, imagine that that homeowner who shot the two, you know, people who were pretending to be law enforcement. Let's say they actually were law. Let's say it was ICE agents who refused to identify who came knocking at the door. And the homeowner thought, or an illegal kill.

[Krystal Ball]

We're off to the races.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, and the homeowner thought, genuinely, these were home intruders and, you know, killed them. Imagine, imagine what this administration would do given any sort of a pretext for some sort of massive crackdown. Like, we know that they'll do it. They're already doing it based on, like, you know, a few protests with some. With a couple cars set on fire and some Mexican flags and big balls getting beat up. So they'll use anything, you know, I mean, we just had a situation where one of these wasn't one of the MRAPs. That like T boned a call here in the city. Thankfully, the people in the car were injured. They were taken to the hospital, but I think they survived and are going to be okay, which is like a miracle given what unfolded. But again, you can imagine, like an angry crowd forming. It's not hard to envision the way this could all go off the rails and the way this administration could use that sort of provocation for an even larger scale crackdown. So I think we all have to be concerned about those possibilities because. And concerned that, that, that is actively the plan. Like, that's what they're actually hoping for. Because Trump loves to create the pretext of a national emergency to grab more and more and more power.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I don't think. Look, I don't think it's that far fetched. I do think it is dangerous, just broadly, actually societally for that type of stuff to happen. And if it is seen by the people as something as that, then you're political, even just politically, like, you're gonna suffer a lot. Because that is really the question anyway. That's just like the question I'm grappling with the most. Because it's like you said too. I mean, here is the truth that is uncomfortable. A lot of people will choose safety over security, and we've seen that over and over and over and over again. Then safety over freedom, you mean safety over freedom. Yeah, the question is about safety itself and, like, what that even means. I do think there is a deep strain, especially for a lot of American, especially a lot of American Republicans who are still fearful about blm, which I understand is to punish the people who were responsible for that. But, you know, one of the things that they also need to grapple with is three and a half years ain't that long of a time. Okay. Because whatever what's been unleashed, it's coming for you too.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I'm from Texas. I don't know if you remember when Obama, like, there was this whole Jade Helm exercise.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, yeah. Oh, I remember.

[Krystal Ball]

Texas National Guard was mobile and people there freaked out. Like, my neighbor and other people were like, they're gonna come and invade us. And like, that's equally. I can see that strain, having lived through that, of what that could look like. There's no reason why a liberal city or whatever can't do the same thing. That's kind of a scary place to be. That's just what I would say.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I agree. Another pandemic. You ready for Governor Gavin Newsom to send the National Guard into your cities and force everybody, close the churches and lock down. I don't think Republicans are gonna be excited about that possibility.

[Krystal Ball]

That is the point though that the right wingers always point out is like, hey, you gotta are happy to use the National Guard to close down the beach or you know, to enforce all.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They did that.

[Krystal Ball]

No, in, in California there was maybe not National Guard, but there definitely was. I think there was some national guard deployment for COVID 19. I forget exactly what it was for. I think it was Operation Warp Speed. But anyway, law enforcement closing down the beach, a lot of the stupid policies, restaurants, et cetera. So it's like, it's not exactly as if they're like, you know, against like a lot of authoritarian tactics when they wanted to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

To be.

[Krystal Ball]

That was by the way, another reason why I think it's important to say like there was no mass revolution in America or anywhere in the entire west against draconian COVID policies. People actually should sit with that, especially in retrospect of how ridiculous they were and wonder if we would all do it again. I personally will not go along with it again. I don't know how many people would not go. Would go along with it again. And I do think that is, that is an important societal like social question for what it means.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is interesting. Just decide, I don't know that this is the only deployment, but one of the deployments of the National Guard during COVID was red state Ohio to assist hospitals. It was like to assist hospitals when you had.

[Krystal Ball]

But he was the lid. What was the guy?

[Saagar Enjeti]

DeWine. DeWine, yeah, Mike DeWine. And obviously at the same time you had National Guard deployed to deal with the George Floyd the riots in the context of the Black Lives Matter. So in any, any case.

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[Today Show Host]

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[Krystal Ball]

You'll all remember that we told you the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche sat for two days of interviews with Ghislaine Maxwell in a proffer session. The Deputy Attorney General and the DoJ has now the full transcripts, or at least what they say are the full transcripts of their conversation. And you will be absolutely shocked to know that Ghislaine Maxwell doesn't implicate Donald Trump doesn't implicate anybody powerful at all. Prince Andrew did nothing wrong. Bill Gates did nothing wrong. Jeffrey Epstein was a simple money manager. By the way, to the extent that anyone did anything wrong, it was Jeffrey Epstein. And it was, of course, after Ghislaine Maxwell was ever in the picture. Maxwell herself did nothing wrong. Nobody did anything wrong. And by the way, she would like her pardon immediately. She did say a few interesting things. To the extent that we give credence at all, let's keep in mind every claim that she makes needs to be deeply scrutinized. And I will get into them. Let's go to the first part, shall we? Let's put it up here on the screen. This is the first most important section where Maxwell claims that she does not believe that Epstein, quote, died by suicide. She says, quote, I do not believe he died by suicide. And Todd Blanche goes, do you believe that? Do you have any speculation or view of who killed him? She says, no, I, I don't. He continues, I ask that because if you don't believe that and there's any truth for the allegation of blackmail, et cetera, did he have any reason for people to hate him? Why would somebody kill him in prison? And she says, and this is something I keep emphasizing, people are like, how could they get somebody to kill him? Listen to her answer. In prison, where I am, they will kill you or they will pay. Somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary. That's about the going rate for a hit with a lock today. That is an important thing to underscore because he was in, you know, mc. People keep asking, they're like, who killed him? It's like, it's obviously another prisoner. These guys kill each other over literally 25 cent gambling debts to maintain respect. So the idea that it would be difficult for somebody to kill him or especially to strangle him to death is like. So that is the most plausible scenario. It's far more plausible than that he killed himself. So anyway, the one piece of sense.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That Ghislaine was saying, but even in that guess who she doesn't implicate.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Of course, the Trump administration.

[Krystal Ball]

Not even just that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, anybody, anyone powerful. Right. And obviously it was the first Trump administration when Jeffrey Epstein died, however that unfolded. And so she's very careful to, you know, I don't think he killed himself, but it was just some, you know, prison beef is probably what happened. Nobody powerful was involved. Don't worry, you can trust me.

[Krystal Ball]

This whole thing is like a joke. Let's go to the next part here. This is her angling for her pardon. Shall we quote, I never saw the President in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anybody in all the times I was with him. He was a gentleman in all respects. And she even says that, by the way. I just wanna say that I find it so impressive that he was able to get himself elected President of the United States. Of course, I'm sure those are just, you know, very normal feelings. Right. Okay, now let me just again lay out how much of her testimony or whatever her, in her prophecy session is just a provable lie. And this is the easiest one for me to point out. Let's put it up here on the screen. She told Todd Blanche directly that she Built all of Epstein's houses. And the idea that there are cameras in them is preposterous. So here is the exact transcript from what you know. You do not believe a camera exists or a video camera exists or a camera that takes pictures inside any of his residences. Ghislaine Maxwell. Correct. Here is a picture from Jeffrey Epstein's bedroom with a mounted surveillance camera above his bed. There are many other photos of surveillance cameras all over the 77th street mansion. There are FBI acknowledgments that during the raids of his houses that they found cameras apparently everywhere. Like, this is the part where Todd. Blanche doesn't even push back in any way. He's like, oh, so you're telling me this? There's no cameras, okay? And she goes on this whole long spiel. She's like, I built those houses from ground to, you know, from floor to ceiling. I know every inch of them. And the wiring. There's no cameras anywhere. And he's not sitting there being like, well, what about this photo of a camera? Like, it's like, what? You know, I'm just an idiot. I'm literally an idiot on YouTube who has read as much as I can about the Epistein case, and immediately I'm like, what are you talking about? Here. Here's 10 photos of cameras in there. So did those cameras show up after you built the houses?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

If they did, who put them in there? What was the name of the house manager? Who are the employees who would have how to do something like that? What was a subcontracting firm? Because you claim to run all of his finances and know every inch of the desk. So many of the things that she said were total lies. Even worse, the way she tries to minimize everything that happened. It's sickening. Like, I read all 400 pages of this lady's testimony. At every inch, she's like, oh, that was Geoffrey. It was after I departed. Or I never saw anything wrong. Like, every. Oh, Prince Andrew. I met him through Diana's friend. And I don't wish to speak ill of her, but Andrew, he's so British. He would never, never do anything like that. And it's like, for Andrew, for Bill Gates, for Leon Black, for Les Wexner. It's like the most bullshit explanation that does not even pass a remote smell test. Blanche lets her get away with it. And the worst part is this will probably use is already being used by the Epstein defenders. Look, see, she drove a knife in the heart of all of the Epstein conspiracy. Why would we listen to this lady. This lady was charged with. Charged with perjury in 2020 for lying in a deposition. Now, to be fair, the prosecution ended up dropping the perjury for her sentencing because she'd already been convicted. The broader charge was gonna send her for prison for 20 years. Like, open and shut. Decent enough proof that she has lied under oath for a deposition.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Not only that. Like, let's just be really clear about the context here. This is a woman who wants a pardon. She's trying to. To get out, and she's trying to project, not just to Trump, but to anyone powerful that. You're not gonna have a problem with me. I'm gonna keep my mouth shut. Your secrets are safe with me. I'm gonna be no issue. I'm not gonna implicate anyone. I'm gonna downplay this thing. We can all just move on. I mean, that's the point of this. And so even if she wasn't, like, a proven liar, which obviously she is, you have to think about what are her motivations. Obviously, she's not gonna come forward and be, oh, yeah, I saw Trump doing X and Y and Z. Oh, yeah, he's totally Epstein, an intel agent. Oh, yeah, there were cameras everywhere. Because the minute you acknowledge there are cameras everywhere, too, that, again, confirms there's a lot of information out there that we have never been given access to. So that's why the camera piece is important, and it is one of the most easily disprovable pieces. I mean, didn't we get that information not only from a lot of witnesses who saw such things, but there was also when Epstein's mansion on the Upper east side was raided by law enforcement. Enforcement. They also didn't. Weren't they part of, you know, talking about the cameras that were there like this?

[Krystal Ball]

Say it directly.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is. There is. You know, this is proven fact. This is not speculation. This is not conspiracy theory, et cetera. So it speaks to her credibility and the motivations that she has in this whole exchange.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely. Let's go to the next part, please, because, you know, just to continue to give you guys a flavor of what we're all dealing with, this is Maxwell. I never saw a single masseuse ever look unhappy or not come back or whatever. Yeah, that's what we were dealing with. So she's like. So based on my observation, I don't. This is classic. I don't think that if you were being raped, as he's now, like, this prolific, I just. I can't even imagine why you would return. All right. So it's like, you know, when battered women. This is the justification that people make about battered women. They're like, well, if they wanted to leave so bad, they would just leave. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's that simple. Okay. Talk to any cop who's ever had to go to a domestic violence silence call, and some lady has her face broken, and she's like, oh, we didn't do anything wrong. Maybe there's a bigger context and some power dynamic and money exchange and blackmail or whatever, which is keeping people there. Just my opinion. My opinion.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, and the testimony is that, I mean, dozens of girls down in Florida, in particular in Palm beach, that she would intentionally go to rough areas of town where you had, you know, girls from Traffic who were in very difficult situations. They were desperate. You know, I mean, she preyed on people who had already been abused, who were desperate for Virginia Giuffre being a perfect example of that, you know, as a teenager, as a young teen at Mar A Lago, and she recognized this vulnerability. And those would be the girls that she would go after and pick up on.

[Krystal Ball]

Exactly. And, you know, of course, to her, she never did anything. She didn't even look at an underage person while she was admitted, ever worked for job. I'm serious. That's the way that she talks in all of her testimony.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Remember, Trump even acknowledged that Virginia Giuffre was like, yes, stolen from him by Ghislaine and Jeffrey Epstein.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. All right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

When she was, what, 16?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I believe so. Let's go to the next one. This is another one. He asks, do you have any reason to think that Epstein was part of Mossad or the CIA or any intelligence agents? She says, quote, I think it's bullshit, because if it were true, then Epstein would have bragged about it to her or tried to play it off and tried to be cool about it. And so because he was never cool about it and didn't brag. Brag about it to her, that she thinks that it's all wrong. Now, let's keep that in context. This part specifically for the next, which remains the central question of the entire Epstein mythology, which is, how did this guy make all of his money? Here is Maxwell's explanation on the type of services that he provided for Les Wexner and Leon Black. Quote, let's say you had a billion dollars to invest. So you would, you know, in people's normal investment portfolios, you would have, you know, some T bonds and this and that. But Epstein's strategies would be much More sophisticated. So again, we are to believe that the college dropout non accredited investor Jeffrey Epstein had quote, sophisticated strategies that were only accessible to him and not to the richest and most powerful people in the world. There are richest, most powerful people in the world who use investment advisors of all kinds. Goldman Sachs. They don't need to deal with Epstein. Why do they need to deal with the J. Epstein Company? All right, Goldman and all those other people can get you into venture capital as an LP or any of that, and they can return on your portfolio between 15 and 20% per year. Or you could just invest it in the S&P 500 and still get a decent enough deal. This does not pass a smell test at all. Leon Black, one of the most legendary investment advisors of all time, had just had to use Epstein and not didn't have to use his own money. That's why I paid him $170 million. Again, Todd Blanche, no explanation. He doesn't challenge her. He's like, well, exactly what were the sophistic strategies? She goes, he was just a whiz at math. What? No, you know, no, this stuff is ridiculous. Well, if that were true, all of the people at the Harvard math department who he was constantly cultivating or MIT or any of them, they would all be billionaires and be filthy rich if that's not the case, is it? So it's just that is the part where the explanation on everything is anodyne. Everything is just, oh, he made his money by being smart. He, he, Nobody was abused except by him. I've learned about that after his death. Of course, I didn't know about any of it at the time. Everything we ever did was above board. Every connection that he ever had to quote Intelligence or whatever is quote bullshit because he would have bragged to me about it. And I just can't with the entire thing. It really. Todd Blanche just did a horrible job, like he really just did.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, he did a great job for what his purposes were, sure, but I.

[Krystal Ball]

Mean for transparency, inherent purposes. What he effectively did is engineer. It would be like a softball interview. Is the example of. It's like when Republicans are in trouble or Democrats, Republicans in trouble and go on Fox and Democrats are in trouble and go on msnbc. What can they be assured of that when they're in their interview that they will be asked in the most anodyne way without any follow up about what's happening so that they can, quote, get on the record and get ahead of it, but they can't actual. They don't actually have to answer any of the specific questions. And that's effectively what has happened here. So it's just the whole thing is preposterous, and I just want people to remember that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. A couple other things, interesting nuggets from there. She was asked about her dad's ties to intel, and she basically was like, well, once you're an intelligence agent, I don't think you're ever really not an intelligence agent. Was basically her response there, which I thought was kind of interesting. And then she got asked about Epstein's relationship with former Israeli Prime Minister aif. Who? Barack. He's the one who met with Epstein dozens of times. There's that infamous picture of him, like, covering, with his face covered, going into Epstein's Upper east side mansion. And so Blanche asked about that relationship and if she knew what the nature of that relationship was, and she's just like, no, I didn't know anything. Have very little memory of meeting him. Don't know if he's with Epstein or I don't remember. I just know that I did see him. And I'm trying, struggling to remember the context around it, but if. I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief because I don't have any serious memory of it, any deep memory of that. So there you go.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's what we're all dealing with. Let's just put B7, please, up on the screen just to give people an idea. All the Epstein files given to Congress are apparently already public. Okay, got it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. RO Khan is sounding off in this piece, by the way. I mean, he's really been leading the charge. Apparently only 3%, according to him, of the documents given to the Oversight committee are new. He says the rest are already in the public domain. Less than 1% of the files have been released. DOJ is stonewalling. The survivors deserve justice. The public deserves transparency.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, got it. And finally, just in terms of the protection, B7, please. We can show everybody here. What do we have? The inmate at Ghislaine Maxwell's new prison was apparently transferred to a grim lockup after slamming Ghislaine in an interview. So her name was Julie Howell. She was serving just one year for theft. She was actually removed after blasting Maxwell, quote, as disgusting with a British paper earlier this month. According to her lawyer, the prison warden called her into her office and said that she was being moved immediately because, quote, because that she had given an unauthorized interview. And she literally, quote, only decided to speak up because one of her family members was actually a victim of sex trafficking and she didn't want to to be in the same prison as somebody who had that charge. We will all keep in mind that you're not even supposed to be in the prison camp with Ghislaine Maxwell's charge. By the way, I will be there next month back in my hometown. So maybe I need to go on by. Let's go buy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Interesting.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I mean I wonder how close you can get because these Daily Mail guys all have photos of Elizabeth Holmes like working out and apparently they have.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Those super long lens cameras but there's.

[Krystal Ball]

No fences apparent like with the camps like it's very lax apparently they just have to be back for count. Like there's not a lot of enforcement. It's basically if you leave, you're like, hey, just so you know, we're coming after you and you have such a cushy gig. Like why would you actually want to just in terms of the way that these federal federal prison camps work. So maybe I can get, if you're a guard, by the way, federal prison camp. Brian, reach out. I would love to talk to you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, interesting. But yeah, apparently they're going to all sorts of lengths to protect this lady.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.