← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
9/15/25: Gov Says Kirk Assassin 'Leftist', Knives Out For Kash Patel, Israel Flattens Gaza & MORE
01:49:29
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- [00:00]
Sagar
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
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- [00:36]
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- [01:35]
Elias
America is changing and so is the world.
- [01:39]
Sagar
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [01:47]
Elias
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
- [01:50]
Sagar
Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.
- [01:54]
Elias
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [01:59]
Sagar
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Morning everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have Crystal did we do?
- [02:13]
Elias
We're going to break down the very latest we know about Charlie Kirk's killer and that investigation. We're also taking a look at the head of the FBI. Cash Patel under fire from within the administration is actually breaking news this morning with regards to that. The administration is also signaling a Charlie Kirk inspired crackdown as conservative go after anyone that they feel is insufficiently mourning Charlie Kirk's murder. We've also got some new leaked Epstein emails we want to dig into that are causing some international fallout story we missed last week for obvious reasons, but want to make sure we circle back to we've also got Washington working overtime to further criminalize Israel dissent. And Zoran Mandani picking up a big endorsement in New York. So some significant developments in terms of that race.
- [02:57]
Sagar
Yes, that's right. And thank you to everybody who's been supporting the show. It's been obviously been a very tumultuous week here over at Breaking Points, but we do appreciate all the messages of support that we got. So thank you all very much. And let's go ahead and get then to the details of what we know about Charlie Kirk's assassin. Governor Spencer Cox of Utah appearing on multiple cable networks giving us some confirmed information. Remember, Utah authorities are the ones who are handling the case and will be prosecuting it in the state as a capital murder charge. Here's what he had to say. Well, some outlets are reporting that the suspect lived with a transgender partner. Is that accurate? And are investigators looking at this part of his life as a possible motivation?
- [03:43]
Governor Spencer Cox
Yes, definitely. And yes, I can confirm that. I know that has been reported and that the FBI has confirmed that as well, that the roommate was a romantic partner, a male transitioning to female. I can say that he has been very cooperative. This partner has been incredibly cooperative. Had no idea that this was happening and is working with investigators right now. But this was a very normal young man, a very smart young man, 4o student, I think 34 on the ACT, went to my alma mater, Utah State University, but was only there for a very short amount of time and dropped out after less than one semester. And it seemed to happen kind of after that, after he had moved back to the southern part of Utah. Clearly there was a lot of gaming going on. Friends that have confirmed that there was kind of that deep, dark Internet, the Reddit culture and these other dark places of the Internet where this person was going deep. And you saw that on the casings, I think I didn't have any idea what those inscriptions, many of those inscriptions even meant. But they are certainly the memeification that is happening in our society today.
- [05:06]
LG X Boom Advertiser
Governor, you told the Wall Street Journal that Tyler Robinson was deeply indoctrinated with leftist ideology. Have investigators uncovered evidence to show that?
- [05:18]
Governor Spencer Cox
Well, so far that has come from his acquaintances and his family members. That's where that initial information has come from. Certainly there will be much more information that is released in the charging documents as they're bringing all of that together.
- [05:33]
Sagar
And anything new on the investigation. You say he admitt that confessed?
- [05:39]
Governor Spencer Cox
No, again, he has not confessed to authorities. He is not cooperating. But all the people around him are cooperating. And I think that's very important. There were reports yesterday that we can confirm that his roommate was indeed a boyfriend who is transitioning from male to female.
- [06:04]
Sagar
To summarize everything that we know, number one, Robinson not cooperating with investigators despite, I guess, having turned himself in or having a family member turn himself in. Number two, Governor Cox says he was, quote, deeply indoctrinated with leftist ideology, per the initial interviews that law enforcement's been able to conduct with Tyler Robinson and many of his associates. Number three, Tyler Robinson was in a relationship with a male transitioning to female. And then four, obviously descended into some of the deeper, darkest corners of the Internet. Everybody of the bullet casing inscriptions, quote, hey, fascist catch followed by arrows, which is apparently from a game called Helldiver 2. The Belichow Belichow reference, which is a reference to a song which people have said is aligned with the, quote, anti fascist movement, although there's been some indications in other directions. Three is quote, if you read this, you are gay. So very lmao. Which is very hallmark of Internet culture. And then finally is notices bulge o w o. What's this? Which is apparently a furry reference. If you don't know what that is, I don't suggest Googling it. But anyways, that is.
- [07:15]
Elias
Did you know that one going in?
- [07:17]
Sagar
Of course, no. First of all, I'm not a gamer.
- [07:20]
Elias
I know you're not, but you were like, you know, you're younger than me. You were like deeper in some of these messages boards at some point in your life. And from research I've learned this is actually not even a current furry meme. It's like an outdated 10 year old furry meme.
- [07:35]
Sagar
I was not aware certainly of all of this. I can say I was a 4chan in my youth.
- [07:40]
Elias
Insult you.
- [07:41]
Sagar
No, no, it's fine. Yeah, it's totally fine. I was a 4chan Reddit guy in my youth. I guess I missed some of these things on. I hear B has gotten crazy, but maybe it's gotten much crazier than I've even envisioned. B is one of the general purpose boards on 4chan. Haven't been in quite a long time. I have real stuff to do right now with a child and all of that. But certainly this just demonstrates kind of some of the things that we know so far about the alleged or allegedly know about the Charlie Kirk assassin. Let's go ahead and put this up here from the New York Times. Just summarizing some of all this. They say Governor Cox said the suspect had, quote, Been radicalized, but did not go into specifics about the suspect's views. What I think is quite interesting here potentially about Robinson is by all accounts, as the governor said, this is a very smart individual, high IQ, individual, got a 34 on his SAT, remarkably high score, but then is only enrolled in college for a single semester. It's not, of course, out, and this is my own personal speculation, but it does fit with the pattern of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia, mental illness largely begins to set in in the early 20s. And for such a good student coming out of college to drop out of college in a single semester. Keep in mind, it was also during the COVID year. So that certainly could have potentially involved in all of this. But, you know, I don't know. I have so much to say about the Internet stuff, but which I'll save some of my commentary and all that. Those are the facts as we know them right now. Obviously, you know, motive looks relatively clear considering who Charlie Kirk was and some of the personal background, I will say, on the transgender boyfriend, whatever roommate piece. They're saying that that person, according to investigators, not being investigated as a accomplice, allegedly knew nothing about this. But there's still so many questions about the circumstances of the law enforcement investigation of some of the misfires and the bad information that was initially put out. We're gonna save some of that. We're gonna talk about Kash Patel and his handling of that in a moment. But there's a reason we started with the governor. This is from the governor of U. Actually confirmed not being reported necessarily by others. And of course, we're gonna wait for the charging documents to back all of this up in a court of law.
- [09:50]
Elias
I mean, but we should also listen. Yeah, maybe. Right. I'm just at this point, I'm sort of in a wait and see because we've had intentional. Intentional leaks that have turned out to be wrong. We have an FBI that is politicized. The governor's getting his information from the FBI. He's already said something. And we'll talk more about this in the Cash Patel section that have turned out to be false and, you know, a lie coming law enforcement. So the narrative that they're running with is effectively like, he was a leftist and he was inspired by his trans furry romantic partner, maybe.
- [10:27]
Sagar
It's very potent, potentially possible.
- [10:29]
Elias
It also does feel like that's exactly what they've been pushing for and hoping for from the beginning. If you'll recall, we got leaks to Steven Crowder in the Wall Street Journal that the bullets were engraved with transgender ideology turn out to be completely and totally false. We'll talk more about this. But they claim that he effectively confess crimes on Discord. Discord. And came out and said, that's not true whatsoever. So like I said, maybe the official story is correct, but at this point I'm like, I'm just gonna wait and see how this all shakes out and what more evidence they produce. Because at this point they have not said officially what a motive is. The other thing that's interesting, if we take the sort of official story and dig into that a little bit, cuz there is a lot here that is very troubling about our society and young men and where we are, et cetera. You know, it's like it's a very different world out there on the Internet. I was thinking of myself as being like very online because I'm scrolling Twitter all the time. It's very different. Like everybody's been digging, trying to turn up some social media footprint for him. He doesn't really have one that we can discern. And so it's. And this is consistent also with some of the other shootings that we've seen, for example, that are sort of like this deep Internet online radicalization. For example, on the very same day there was a school shooter in Denver in the same county that the original Columbine school shooting occurred, who also had this like, you know, he was more sort of like overtly a neo Nazi and ends up critically injuring two students in this high school before killing himself. But in a lot of ways, the same patterns. The patterns are very similar. You can also look at the shooter in Minneapolis at that school and Catholic church thing like that one is even more analogous because you had them posting these videos similarly engraving on the weapons. All of this Internet memification dark like, lol, nothing matters nihilism. And that really feels like the connective tissue. I mean, in a sense, it's not really new and different because certainly in the modern era, post Columbine, you've had these misanthropic young, usually white men who, you know, are sort of like socially awkward and have sometimes it's some sort of life trauma or whatever and then end up committing these horrific acts. But it has this very modern 2025 horrifying flavor to it with this nihilistic black pill Internet meme culture. So the last point that I'll make about this again is we're digging in and assuming that the official narrative is more or less correct. Someone made this point online. I thought it was a Good one. You know, unfortunately, where we are as a society now, school shootings, it's like they happen all the time and they barely get noticed anymore. Like, I said that there was a school shooting on the same day, and how much have you even heard about that? So if you're looking for, like, infamy and notoriety, guess what is gonna get you now in the modern day? The attention and the horror that you apparently crave. And so I think there is now emerging of the sort of like, school shooter profile with the attempted or actual political assassin profile that we should also be deeply concerned about.
- [13:55]
Sagar
Thomas Matthews Crooks actually fits into that as well.
- [13:57]
Elias
Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's right.
- [13:59]
Sagar
I mean, you know, in terms of same thing. Gamer. I'll save some of my gaming commentary, but generally, yes, I actually my macro takes is everyone keeps saying social media was a mistake, but that's a misunderstanding of the term social, because social media has not been social for probably a decade now.
- [14:16]
Elias
Yeah, true.
- [14:17]
Sagar
At this point, for people who are our age elder millennials, we remember when social media actually was social, as in Facebook.
- [14:23]
Elias
Yeah, when Facebook was like, actually about.
- [14:25]
Sagar
Your friend group was your friend group. Now all of social media. And look, we built careers off of this. So it's a little hypocritical for me to speak this way, but the vast majority of content that people now consume is not social. It's parasocial. It's actually antisocial. It is people who are gathering in particular or who are projecting things like Charlie to them. Charlie Kirk was not a human being. He was a meme. And that's why responding with memes is the only potential way for them to gain notoriety. And the vast majority of the content and fights and all these things that take place happen between either nameless individuals or individuals who may know each other's name, but have never met, met ever in the real world. And so, so much of this is not only the atomization of young people, but actually making it so that antisocial media turns individuals political. Fig not even just political figures, people with no power, people who are like influencers into this parasocial relationship where not only do you feel like you know that person, if you're a fan of them, if you hate that person, you hate them passionately, and they lose their humanity. And the engagement that you have with those individuals becomes one wrapped in the same level that you interact with everybody online, which is irony, which is jokes, which is, you know, is completely disconnected from any sort of human connection. So we're actually living in an antisocial age. There was a theory that, you know, connection for the world would be good. I actually think it's backfired dramatically. But just broadly, you know, fitting here with Robinson and kind of the general archetype of these Internet. You know, if you think broadly about the US society, 99.9% of people, I would say, are generally good. But 0.1% of 300 million is what that's like 30,000 people. So 0.1% just of the general population, people who are either inclined to violence, mentally ill, engaged in this level of irony and of memes, are then taking it to a level, again, not only of dehumanization, of actual violence and wrapping everything like making a gauge of on a bullet where you took a human being's life is insane. It's an insane behavior. Writing, you know, in terms of the shooter in Minneapolis, the trans Nazi, writing, you know, slurs, jokes, swastikas, you know, and all of this together.
- [16:46]
Elias
Satanic stuff.
- [16:47]
Sagar
Satanic while murdering little children again.
- [16:50]
Elias
Right.
- [16:50]
Sagar
What is going on there? Same in this Denver thing. It's the same archetype, you know, looking into this. And it's not. You can't even. It's like the deepest, darkest corner of the Internet. But that is itself reflective of the general dehumanization of the antisocial age. Let's put this up here, please.
- [17:08]
Elias
On the screen, there's a disconnect from reality where other humans don't seem real. They're NPCs. Right. And like you said, the relationship with Charlie Kirk is not as a human, it's as a meme. It's as this distant cultural figure where you assassinating them publicly can gain you the. This fame, notoriety, and clout in the in group. And that's what memes are about. They're about signaling to an in group. And so that's the reason why you put that stuff on your, you know, engrave that stuff on your bullets.
- [17:38]
Sagar
Yeah. I mean, again, to make furry references and gay jokes on your. On your bullets, that you're taking another person's life wild, leaving a widow and two children without a father. It's sick. And so if we look here, after Kirk's killing, the suspect joked that his, quote, doppelganger did it. This is from new messages being released here from the New York Times. They say that the day after Kirk was killed, an acquaintance of Robinson posted a question to him in a group chat. The FBI released two grainy surveillance images tagging Robinson on discord Messaging platform. The acquaintance attached the images and throw where you at? Where you at? WIA is where you at With a skull emoji. Suggesting that Robinson looked like the man being sun, Robinson replied within a minute that his doppelganger was, quote, trying to get me in trouble. People then began to joke, quote, tyler killed Charlie. That was on Thursday afternoon around 1pm local time. And it was not until later that night, 34 hours after the shooting, that Robinson was arrested on the suspicion of carrying out the assassination. So it's pretty clear that he was monitoring the situation online and he was joking about his doppelganger. Obviously didn't have much remorse. And apparently some of the messages that have come out or some of the indication from law enforcement enforcement that came out is that initially he actually wanted to take his own life. His father talked him out of it before eventually turning him in. He's not cooperating with law enforcement. So again, we have to write on the charging documents. And so, yeah, it is a media story in terms of there's been so much information out there which was either not confirmed or relied on second, third hand information and has been retracted. I've never felt worse really about the state of the media right now. I really haven't. Just because their handling of this has shown you that even journalists and people with high standards, it's not that just that they shoot from the hip, it's that law enforcement itself also in the initial stages of investigation, I do feel like wait and see is just the best course. And yet in our Internet age, to the antisocial point, the first piece, the first thing you can glom onto, which proves your narrative boom. And people demand takes from us, from the whole world immediately, without any confirmed information, without charging documents, et cetera. When the reality is, first of all, you don't have to have a take, you can just say wait and see. I know it's not everybody wants to have their beliefs confirmed in real time, but I have been thinking a lot about the antisocial movement. I don't think it's fair to call it social media anymore. It is antisocial media. It is purely, if you think about it, it's algorithmically fueled content. What is the purpose of TikTok? It's not to see your friends. TikToks is to see the best of the whole world, right? The top point, 1%. Same with Instagram. That's the vast majority of engagement on Twitter. It's the big influencers, people who have the big accounts, which all the little accounts follow and they look to see all of this and the incentives behind it are so deeply destructive. And now it is bleeding into the actual. Into the population at a way in which violence itself is a meme. And yeah, I think it's really sick. It's sick. Just to show you all how it continues to pervade, I don't think it's gonna get better. I think it's gonna get much worse. The reaction to this, unfortunately, does basically confirm all of that. And yeah, and then it's a bigger societal question. What are we gonna do? Ban the Internet? What are we gonna do? You know, we have a free society. Like, we have. We have rights. There's a lot of intangible benefits that all of us have. We've built careers. A lot of people have. A lot of people have alternative media, independent, whatever you want to call it. They've really enjoyed the ability to engage outside of traditional gatekeepers. Message board culture has brought actually a lot of good for a lot of people. I've met a lot of friends on Twitter or elsewhere. I've never met these people. I've probably talked to them for a decade now at this point. So it's been hugely beneficial to my life. I'm sure that's a story for a lot of people. But you see the downside of this.
- [21:41]
Elias
I mean, we also have to say, though, head on, most of the world, right, China has put in some restrictions on social media and amount of gaming, whatever, but most of the world has access to, you know, all of the Internet message boards. And there are many countries that do a lot more gaming than the US does.
- [21:57]
Sagar
That's true.
- [21:58]
Elias
And they don't have the routine mass shootings. So to me, it's an accelerant. Right. In the same way that, like Covid was an accelerant of some of the worst trends. And so why is it that we have these routine mass shootings and other countries don't? And I think you have to look at what's different about our country. I mean, one thing, chock full of guns, no doubt about that. Gun culture. This kid was. He's not a kid, he's a man. But this man was raised in gun culture. That's why he was such a good shot and so proficient with the weapon, et cetera. You have mass untreated mental illness, people who have no connection whatsoever to even medical system. I don't think that's applicable in this particular instance. But that is a broader phenomenon we have in the US is mass untreated mental illness. And Lack of connection to the medical system. You have a crushing level of inequality where young men in particular I think mentally suffer. Because the whole definition of being a man culturally has been you're able to provide for a family and build this stable, secure life. And that has been ripped away. So you have a lot of aimless adrift young men, never a good thing for society. And then you have this hyper political tension. And so, so when you put all of those facts together, I think that's how you lead to this powder keg where those algorithmically driven aspects of the Internet and the things that everyone in the whole world basically has access to turn into a factory for radicalization and explosions of violence that we are suffering in the US in a much greater way than other developed countries around the world.
- [23:44]
Sagar
That's a good flag. I mean I will say the rifle used here is exactly the one even gun control advocates say we're not gonna take away. Right? It's a hunter hunting. It's a single bolt action hunting rifle. Like there's genuinely under no reasonable gun control policy. Like would that not happen. Right. It just is baked in to the American character. I do think it is also reflective broadly of US culture. I think that's correct. I mean Korea and Japan have huge gaming. I mean China actually less so. The Chinese government has cracked down on it quite a bit. But yeah, take more like freer Asian societies. Korea, Japan, they have huge gaming. They don't have have mass issues like this. They have all kinds of other societal problems. So yeah, an accelerant is the correct way. Whatever it is, it's gonna make you more so. So in the Japanese case, like what the gaming and all of this has done has led to a collapse in fertility, a collapse in socialization. Korea is seeing very similar stuff here we have a similar collapse in socialization, but it manifests in different ways. Violence obviously is one hyper politicization algorithms. I think we should all alts really spend a lot of time with this in the next in the coming days because it is a very, very deep societal sickness.
- [24:51]
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- [25:22]
Elias
Time for a.
- [25:22]
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- [26:23]
Elias
Changing and so is the world.
- [26:26]
Sagar
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [26:34]
Elias
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
- [26:37]
Sagar
Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.
- [26:40]
Elias
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [26:46]
Sagar
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get to Kash Patel. Kash Patel, the FBI director honestly just beclowning himself in this investigation from the very beginning, especially in the press conference after Tyler Robinson was turned into authorities, basically making it seem as if it was law enforcement who did such a good job here. When the truth is is that they released some pictures and the guy's father convinced him to turn him in. They didn't have a single. As of the night before, Utah authorities told media we have no idea where he is. We have no idea who he is. They had had nothing. Zero, nada. And yet here's how he spun it.
- [27:30]
Kash Patel
Thank you Governor. This is what happens when you let good cops be cops. Charlie was shot at 12:23pm on Wednesday. The first FBI agents arrived on scene in 16 minutes with chiefs of police at 12:39 and secured the scene. The FBI immediately launched fixed wing assets. We utilize these assets to transport personnel, personnel, specialty technicians, hostage rescue teams. We also utilize these assets to go back and forth from the east coast and here in Utah to transport forensic evidence and other evidence that will be analyzed and is being analyzed at our FBI laboratories in Quantico and other laboratories including the atf. At my direction, the FBI released the first set of FBI photos of the suspect at 10:00am local time on 9 11. Then shortly thereafter, the FBI reward of $100,000 was released at 10:45am local. Myself and Deputy Director Bongino arrived on the scene at approximately 5:30pm on 9 11. The governor led a press conference last night at approximately 8pm where at my direction, the FBI released a never before seen video of the suspect. We also released new images to the public of the suspect. And just last night the suspect was taken into custody at 10pm local time in less than 36 hours, 33 to be precise. Thanks to the full weight of the federal government and leading out with the partners here in the state of Utah and Governor Cox, the suspect was apprehended in historic time period. The arrest is a testament to dedication of good law enforcement being great and partnerships in law enforcement, which I've tried to highlight as my tenure at the director of the FBI. There is no better relationship for law enforcement than the FBI to partner with state and local authorities. And you've seen it here in these last few days. Lastly, to my friend Charlie Kirk. Rest now, brother.
- [29:36]
Sagar
Brother.
- [29:36]
Kash Patel
We have the watch and I'll see you in Valhalla.
- [29:40]
Sagar
So there's a lot going on there. I mean the Valhalla thing is crazy. We'll just leave that all to the side. We'll just talk purely about his claim that the FBI making it seem the deployment of fixed wing assets. What does that even mean, Fixed wing assets? Talking here.
- [29:57]
Elias
He's just trying to sound like he knows what the hell he's doing and.
- [30:00]
Sagar
Then taking credit for releasing photos like every police. Like local police do that all the time. It's some novel thing, you know. He followed it up, by the way, with this. Let's put it up here on the screen. He says, quote, against all law enforcement recommendations, we demanded the video footage and enhanced stills of the suspect be released to the public. Robinson's father, who ultimately turned him into authorities, told law enforcement he recognized his son in that released video. So again, literally trying to take credit at this point for the capture of Tyler Robinson. Well, actually, no, not captured. That's the wrong word for the. What is it for Tyler Robinson being identified by his family, walked into local police. It's one of those where it's preposterous the idea that the law enforcement had really anything to do with this other than the Routine release of images and making it seem like he stood up to law enforcement. I'm not sure I believe that. And if that's true, then that's more of an indictment of local Utah authorities. But broadly, what you guys saw there. And let's recap all of the mistakes that he made from the very beginning. Number one one, in the initial hours after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, he says a subject is in custody, meaning for most people, for the layman, they're like, oh, okay, so they got him. Great. It's the end of the night. And then he follows it up. The subject has now been released. We're looking for a different person. No, he didn't even say that. He said, the subject has now been released. The manhunter, whatever, continues. And so it was twice, basically, that they claimed and then had to retract that they had people who were in custody and basically telegraphing to folks, oh, it's all been wrapped up. It's in the bag. Don't worry about it. When in both cases, it fell apart completely. And then from that point in that one day up to the turning in of Tyler Robinson, they had nothing. Because if you watch that press conference the day before, we were all on together. And I was also talking with some law enforcement friends, I said, guys, they're offering a hundred thousand dollar reward. They're releasing these enhanced stills and these images. They don't have shit. And they were like, yeah, they have nothing. Their only reason they're doing all this is to hope and pray, just like in the Luigi case, that somebody's like, hey, isn't that that guy? I mean, in both cases, they did not actually have any leads whatsoever. Now, look, as Ryan said on our stream, it is that in a lot of times, that's how cases get solved. Okay? But that's not credit to the allegedly crazy investigation that they did where they were like, well, we've turned DNA and shoe prints and see if he left behind all of. Here's the truth. Tyler Robinson shot Charlie. Allegedly, okay? Since he's not convicted, was able to drive there, park, get out of his vehicle, walk past multiple ring door cameras, get on top of a rooftop, which apparently may have cased out beforehand. According to some reports, Lane, the prone shoot Charlie Kirk disassemble his rifle or stick it down his pant leg, jump off of a roof, then walk again through a neighborhood, get into a car and drive 200 miles back to southern Utah. And they did not have anything about it. They were only able to confirm afterwards when they were like, yeah, we went back and checked his cameras and his car was shown going back and forth. Maybe they would have caught him eventually because they're, you know, going through and looking at all the plates and to see like who came in and who came out. And of course turning him, being turned in by his father accelerated that, but that could have been. I mean that takes months. How many cars are going up and down the highway? Thousands of. There were 3,000 people in the crowd. They had zero going into this. They misled the public telling people basically that, oh, we had the person. So the handling of the investigation, there's just no getting around it. It was a disaster.
- [33:47]
Elias
Yeah.
- [33:47]
Sagar
And people are beginning to acknowledge that.
- [33:49]
Elias
And not only that, I mean if he was more. If Tyler Robinson had been more sophisticated, he could have easily been out of the country. I mean he could have fled the country and they still would have been spinning their wheels having no idea.
- [34:00]
Sagar
Salt Lake city, Utah is 45 minutes away from that happen. You know, Salt Lake City Airport, you could fly anywhere in the world from Sal. Literally hop a connecting flight to lax, you're gone. You can be in Singapore, like you're done.
- [34:10]
Elias
Exactly right, exactly right. And then, and there were, I mean there's more questions too. I mean, he had just recently fired the head of the Salt Lake City FBI field office who was apparently widely respected. We don't know why that person was fired. But in any case, I'm sure that didn't assist help in the investigation, that they just had their head of that office ax. And then, you know, you've had these politicized, selective leaders, leaks, some of which turned out to be inaccurate. You also had. I mean we were watching one of the press conferences when they still had the dude that they ended up releasing in custody. And between law enforcement and the politicians, we're listening to them and we can't even figure out. Cuz we're on the phone together trying to plan a show. We couldn't even figure out whether they actually had someone or not, or the manhunt continued or what was going on. Then there are also reports that they delayed by. Remember there was supposed to be a press conference in the afternoon.
- [35:01]
Sagar
Yes.
- [35:02]
Elias
And we got this message from the FBI. Oh, because of rapid developments, we're gonna oppose the price comp.
- [35:09]
Annabe Sofas Advertiser
They had nothing.
- [35:10]
Elias
Nothing. They were waiting for cash to get there so he could just stand there and do absolutely nothing and say absolutely nothing in that press conference. So that is part of why I think everyone is just waiting to see what more evidence they can offer. Because here's the other thing, Sagar. Some of the stuff is a little perplexing. Some of the timeline they've laid out is a little perplexing. I'll give you two specific examples, okay? One having to do with his outfits and one having to do with the gun. Okay? So the. According to, I believe, Governor Cox, he says that Tyler arrived wearing a maroon shirt and light colored shorts. He then changed outfits while he was on the roof. That's according to Governor Co. But then we see on the doorbell cameras, when Tyler is, you know, limping in with the gun presumably down his pants, he's wearing the same outfit that they show in the stairwell videos that we also see him in when he's jumping off the roof. So we've never seen this maroon shirt, light colored shorts outfit. So we're supposed to think. So apparently he was wearing the all black outfit to walk to the school, then changes and then changes again. Like there's. That piece is a little odd. And then the gun part is also very odd. So in the doorbell camera, he presumably again has it down his pants because he's walking with this limp. Then in the stairwell photos that come out, there's no limp and he has a backpack. So presumably he disassembled the weapon, put it in his backpack, then goes up to the roof, reassembles the weapon, murders Charlie Kirk. And then in the jumping off the roof video, it appears it's back in his backpack. So presumably disassembled again, but then they find it fully assembled in the woods.
- [37:05]
Sagar
Yes.
- [37:06]
Elias
So he had it assembled, then he disassembles it to walk up the stairwell, go to the roof, then he assembles it on the roof, then disassembles it for his backpack. Then he assembles it to leave it in the woods. Why? Why would you do so? There's just a lot of the timeline and the facts that still need to be laid out here for it to all sort of meld together and really fully make sense.
- [37:31]
Sagar
Right now I'm not at conspiracy. I'm still a gross incompetence. Considering what we've seen here, that is.
- [37:35]
Elias
The most likely explanation. No doubt about it.
- [37:38]
Sagar
Listen, my antenna is there. And you're exactly right. We're gonna cover a lot of this tomorrow as well, because there's still quite a few questions around surrounding the circumstances of Charlie Kirk's assassination. Let's go and put this up here on the screen just to show you that in Washington, things not looking so good for Mr. Kash Patel. Knives are out for the embattled FBI Director Kash Patel. Despite Trump's support, quote, Patel sought meeting with Trump following blunders as his new co deputy begins work next week. This is after several prominent allies of the administration are absolutely done with Cash Patel. Let's put the next one up on the screen.
- [38:15]
Elias
Including potentially Suzy Wiles, who we know is very influential.
- [38:18]
Sagar
The White House Chief of staff. That's right. So here's Christopher Ruffo, prominent conservative activist. He says, quote, I'm grateful. Utah authorities have captured the suspect and Charlie Kirk's assassination think it's time for Republicans to assess whether Kash Patel is the right man to run the FBI. He performed terribly in the last few days. It's not clear whether he has the operational expertise to investigate, infiltrate and disrupt the violent movements of whatever ideology that threaten the United States. And this fits also with Steve Bannon, who absolutely has been trashing the FBI's release of information and their overall conduct. Let's take a listen.
- [38:53]
Christopher Ruffo
They have to get ahead of it. You have to get ahead with facts and information. The doorbell cam, and maybe that's not accurate, but the doorbell cam showed the guy walking up like a peg leg because he had the gun in the jeans. And that was 1149. They said he entered at 1153, but the picture had. 1153 had no. He was walking like a normal human being. And they have not gone to the doorbell. They have not gone to this doorbell thing at all. Maybe that's not right. Maybe that's not accurate. Maybe it's wrong. Maybe that picture is wrong. Maybe that didn't happen in that neighborhood. That's right next to the university. Maybe, but I don't know. You don't know. It's out there. Why is there not a briefing today? Why did they sit there and the governor pull the thing? The governor said no. Is anybody going to be arrested? No, there's nobody else. Well, first off, the room, everybody on the Discord chat, which they said is evidence, is an accessory to this murder. But Discord, which is a, you know, it's a company with liabilities, responsibility, they came out and said, you're wrong. There's no chat like that. Now, maybe they're lying. I don't know. I would find it unusual that a company would be that bold to say none of that happened. And you're wrong. Why is there not a briefing today? I don't know why Cash flew out there, you know, thousands of miles to give us, hey, working partnerships and our great partnership and Utah okay, got that. No offense to the law enforcement guys, in the future, this, the public assumes that you're working together as partnerships. There's certain assumptions when you walk to the microphone of information, we don't need time and time and time again, I tell my team when these, when these press conferences are scheduled, I don't know if I need to be for the first 10 minutes because just gonna be some all group thing about how great we are.
- [40:42]
Sagar
He's exactly right there. And the Discord piece also remains one of the craziest things that's happened. Let's put this up here on the screen, please. So Discord. Look, as Steve Bannon said, by the way, this is not the first time that Discord has been implicated in some sort of murder or event, all right? And we should have a separate kind of conversation about that. But the point remains that this is a company which runs huge amounts of chats, discords, et cetera, for these subgroup communities to be able to live chat with each other. And they came out and they were like, listen, what you just said in that press conference is not accurate. It directly contradicted. They said, the tech company said that they alleged that he used Discord to plan his murder. Denied that version of events completely. They say he did have an account, but that he did not use it to plan the Wednesday afternoon Utah Valley University murder. That directly contradicted the initial statement by Utah Governor Spencer Cox. Now, look, it is potentially possible that they got it confused and initially, remember, they said they talked about the doppelganger thing that was on Discord. And they may have said, but, you know, words matter. Also, one of the reasons, guys, that this all matters a lot. Tyler Robinson is a lot. He's not prosecuted. He's not cooperating with federal authorities.
- [41:56]
Elias
That's right.
- [41:57]
Sagar
All of this can be used by his defense at trial. All right, let's really keep that in mind. This stuff really matters in the initial investigation. Afterwards, I saw some law enforcement talking about what you were saying with the description. They were like, hey, the description here initially that went out on the radio is not consistent with some of the things they've said later. This really matters. Matters because the radio call is going to be used at trial to potentially say reasonable doubt. Now, look, I mean, I don't think we're gonna go down that road necessarily. There's a decent amount of evidence against him, but technicalities and all that stuff matter a hell of a lot. Here's what Discord said specifically. The content of these messages, included messages or Sorry. The governor said, included, affiliated with the contact stated a need to retrieve the right from a drop point, leaving the rifle in the bush. Messages relating to visually watching the area where the rifle was left and a message referring to having the left the rifle wrapped in a towel. It's unclear if those arrested messages were sent before or after the shooting, but a Discord spokesperson pushed back, telling the Post there was no evidence that he planned the shooting on the platform. The messages referenced in recent reporting about planning details do not appear to be Discord messages. The spokesperson said they were communications between the suspect's roommate and a friend after the shooting, where the roommate recounted the contents of a note that the suspect had left elsewhere. So, again, it's potentially that they got it confused, but it's also. It's weird and, you know, it fits with all of this. And, yeah, if you're Tyler Robinson and you're not cooperating and you're a lawyer worth your salt, what do you think you're gonna do, you know, at trial? You'd be an idiot not to.
- [43:32]
Elias
Yeah. If you wanna know really like how this works, just watch the O.J. simpson documentaries about how they were. I mean, O.J. simpson obviously murdered Nicole Brown.
- [43:42]
Sagar
Yes.
- [43:43]
Elias
Right. And they were able to get him off because of this kind of bullshit where it's like, oh, well, you didn't follow protocol here. And they could. He had excellent lawyers and they were able to create just enough of doubt. And, well, this person is not trustworthy because they're on camera saying the most virulently racist things you can imagine. And then that was the person who was handling some of the key evidence. And by the way, when you guys were collecting the evidence, you didn't follow protocol in terms of making sure that things weren't contaminated. And bit by bit by bit, bit, they tore apart the government's case and they were able to get him off. So, yes, if the official narrative is 100% correct, the fact that you have these discrepancies and complete sloppiness in the statements is going to be a challenge for them at trial if it comes to that. And the Discord part is the biggest red flag.
- [44:40]
Sagar
Yeah.
- [44:41]
Elias
Because they said, in no uncertain terms, they said specific messages on Discord. Discord is now coming out saying, that did not happen. That did not happen on our platform whatsoever. And so. So, yeah. Then why did you say that it did? Were you just confused? It was in this note, because Steve Bannon is correct, too, that if he was genuinely planning this thing on Discord with Other people in that server, on that server, in that chat, say, you know, taking this in, they would be, you know, they would be interviewed. There's a possibility that they could be an accessory, all those sorts of things. So, yeah, just. Absolutely. The best we could say is sloppy incompetence, Just an absolute shambles of an investigation thus far. And then to have the gall to come out and act like, oh, you were so heroic, and this was such a historic manhunt, when you just got so lucky that this guy basically went home and confessed to his dad, and his dad was buddies with the youth pastor who was like a U.S. marshal. You got so lucky in this thing because a more sophisticated person would have been, you know, half a world away by the time they got their act together.
- [45:50]
Sagar
New comment. Kash Patel confronted by a reporter on his tweet during the manhunt. Could I have worded it a little bit better in the heat of the moment? Sure. Do I regret putting it out? Absolutely not.
- [45:59]
Elias
By the way, where was he when he tweeted that out? He was out at a fancy. At a fancy dinner.
- [46:06]
Sagar
Yes. NBC News reporting. Kash Patel was at Rap, if you don't know what rouse. I've never been to Rao's, just to be very clear. I'm aware of what it is. It's like one of those influencer places where it's like, what is it, Cipriani or something like that. There's like four. Even though Manhattan has the best food in the world, in my opinion, just my personal opinion, has some of the best food in the entire world. There's like four restaurants that the super elite all go to. I've never been to any of them. My friends tell me that they're not even particularly good. And he was exactly at one of the. Those CNBC places called Raoz, which some famous. Whatever. I don't wanna get into it. Something about meatballs. But my point is just that that's who Cash Patel is almost certainly using and leveraging his government influence to get a reservation at Rao's. Allegedly, it was open for him before the tables are even open for everybody else. Must be nice to be the FBI director. And that's where he was when he put it out there, according to his own detail, who obviously are the ones who leaked it. So it's crazy. It's totally crazy. And the knives are out for him. And honestly, at this point, I think he needs to be fired. I just think it's so ridiculous. Don't put the.
- [47:09]
Elias
Don't put podcasters and influencers in charge of things that matter, guys.
- [47:12]
Sagar
Well, okay. And if you're going to, let's sit with their pitch. The FBI is deeply corrupt. It's deeply corrupt. And that means that you need outsiders. I'm sympathetic to that message. What we're gonna do is I know where the bodies are buried. We're gonna do Epstein, we're gonna do Deep State, and we are gonna ruthlessly turn the FBI back into what it's supposed to be. Get people out of Washington and we're gonna prosecute criminals. Not any of that has happened. Not literally, not any of that has happened. So it's not just rank incompetence about your own personal background. It's actually worse because you ran as an indictment of the system itself. And it turns out, honestly, if we're all being un honest, hate James Comey, okay? He probably would have done a better job, you know, at this. If you can't admit that, I don't know what's wrong with you. So there you go. All right, let's get to cancel culture, shall we?
- [48:03]
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- [49:33]
Elias
America is changing and so is the world.
- [49:37]
Sagar
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [49:45]
Elias
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.
- [49:48]
Sagar
Tristan Redman in London. And this is the global story.
- [49:52]
Elias
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [49:57]
Sagar
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [50:05]
Elias
So in the wake of the killing of Charlie Kirk, there have been recriminations coming from the right. Finding anyone on social media who posted anything that they didn't like about Charlie Kirk or didn't express in their view the proper sentiments surrounding his murder. This is happening a number of levels. There's like a organic sort of right wing cultural effort to find these and put them in a database and contact their employers, et cetera. And there also is increasingly, it looks like a coming crackdown coming, coming from the federal government. Let me go ahead and start with Senator Katie Britt, who says in one breath that Charlie Kirk was assassinated because he was such a, in part because he was such a beacon of free speech. And in the next breath talks about how if you're not expressing the proper sentiments, you should be held accountable, you should be fired, et cetera. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.
- [50:54]
Senator Katie Britt
The rhetoric that led us to this moment calling President Trump a fascist, calling him Hitler, you had news organizations and mainstream media celebrating that. Allowing those things to take place and be said on their networks, that is dangerous. When you, when you look at that, when you look at where we are, when you look at how we got here now, people that are celebrating Charlie's murder, celebrating a political assassination that should never happen in the United States of America. And Maria, we must do more. We must stand firm, and there must be be consequences with regards to people spewing that type of hate and celebration in the face of this. And I believe that there will be, and I certainly plan to hold them accountable. So if you are out there and you are celebrating the political assassination of a man who is exercising his free speech, a very foundational element, a cornerstone of who we are as the United States of America, you should be held accountable. You should be fired. And that is the beginning and the end the world of, of it, full stop.
- [51:58]
Elias
And we're gonna show you some of the specifics of the posts that they find objectionable. Some of them, in my opinion, like I strongly disagree with, I obviously condemn political violence. We've been very clear about Our position on that, on this show, some of them are actually literally just reposting some of Charlie's more inflammatory quotes. Some of them are saying it's wrong that he got shot, but I'm not gonna mourn his death because he was a hateful person. I disagree with his political ideology. So those are the types of posts that they're coming after. And we're not talking about either from public. Every mainstream Democrat I know of has condemned the killing of Charlie Kirk. We're talking about random teachers, professors, whoever out there in the world. And Sagar, I don't even think they really care that much about the hypocrisy burn that's in evidence in that clip. Because I think the senses. And you can tell me if I'm wrong off on this. The sense is y' all did this to us and now we're just gonna do it right back.
- [52:53]
Sagar
That's part of it. That's certainly part of it, which I think we could all sympathize with. If you've been victim or something. I've been attacking, attacked by it. I think there's also. I want to express say this as well. The overwhelming thing I have heard from a lot of my more right wing friends is I feel like Charlie and I were not that far apart. You know, everyone is like, oh, I disagreed with him on this. So to watch people celebrate his death and let's be honest, there are extremely viral posts of people who are doing that. It's a free country. You're allowed to. I want to be very, very clear. But to watch that at an organic societal level is deeply wounding at one, and also makes you personally afraid and potentially facing retribution. I think those are legitimate feelings. So first I want to like, validate that. I think it's scary. I mean, you know, for me, Charlie and I, look, we disagreed certainly probably the most on Israel, but like, we weren't that far apart on a lot of stuff. And that's kind of what I was talking about earlier in our A block where it's like, okay, we're just memes now. Like, humans are memes. And apparently, apparently, you know, if somebody gunned me down in cold blood, somebody would probably find a video of me on BLM or trans and be like, fuck him. And that's, you know, look, I gotta be honest. I have to sit with that for a while and just be like, wow, okay, that's. That's a thing.
- [54:12]
Elias
Can I echo what you're saying there? Because obviously Charlie and I were different on almost Every issue. But, yeah, you're like, there are also people out there who think I am like, hateful and horrible and evil for a variety of reasons as well. And I have no doubt that that would be the case for me too. And we'll talk more about the Israel peace tomorrow. But it's also the case that even as Charlie Kirk and I are as different as we could possibly be politically, ideologically, it's also the case that there were some shared enemies. There were some shared. So I totally get why it. I find it deep. I mean, I find it shocking and deeply unsettling and horrifying. And I think. Which is why, you know, I think if you are on the political left and you think it's in any way good that he was murdered, like, I don't know what you're thinking. This is not any sort of benefit to your political project, if that's what you're measuring this on. And part of this block is we are going to see very swiftly, and Stephen Miller is already signaling it. Donald Trump is also signaling it. We are going to see this used as a justification for further crackdowns on left wing organizations. Left wing speech, certainly pro Palestine sentiment has already been in the crosshairs. That's going to be amped up. This will be used as justification for further crackdowns.
- [55:38]
Sagar
Yeah, but then let's get to the social question. And actually, this is a very. It's funny, I think I came out of the woke era and said, I'm against cancel culture in all forms. But actually, more recently, we were all having a discussion. I remember, I think it was about the Jubilee fascist guy. And you were like, yeah, he should be fired. And I was like, yeah, you know, maybe he should. And so then I'm like, okay, do we all believe in cancel culture? And then in a certain extent, yes. And if I think about the movements that I have been the most critical of, BLM and MeToo. Well, nobody who's critical of MeToo says Harvey. Okay, well, maybe some people says Harvey Weinstein. Outside of Candace and a few others, nobody's like, Harvey Weinstein's innocent and he didn't do anything wrong. You can critique the legal case, but at the very, very least at a social, moral level, we're like, yeah, Harvey Weinstein, fuck him. Matt Lauer, fuck him. Who else is in the og? Me too. I'm trying to think of a few other names like those people. But then me too. The criticism, which I think is fair, is it quickly descended from Harvey Weinstein to Aziz Ansari. And that's crazy. And so to the extent that we're pushing back, it's a. About Aziz. Same with blm. Anybody who was like George Floyd deserved to get murdered. Yeah. I think we would all justly say, why is that person in polite society? Now, anybody who says, I don't think there'd be violent rioting and looting and defunding the police is stupid. If that person loses their job, I think we should say, that's bad. So that's where I am here with this Charlie Kirk thing. And maybe that's hypocritical. It may be, to be honest, because it's actually our conversations about that fascist groiper or whatever who was on Jubilee and got fired. And I'm like, yeah, you know, maybe he should be fired. And so it's apparent, by the way.
- [57:23]
Elias
He'D been fired before.
- [57:24]
Sagar
But whatever.
- [57:25]
Elias
It's an intellectual point.
- [57:27]
Sagar
I saw a video of a guy who hung a swastika flag outside of his house, and I'm like, yeah, you know, if I'm his neighbor, I'm gonna be like, hey, man, fuck you. You know, it's one of those where you hung a Nazi flag outside of that. And I'm not going to. You know, you have the. I would go to court to defend his right to do so. And I would also say, go fuck it yourself. And so that's kind of where I am at now with this Charlie Kirk thing, where I think it's becoming way too far already and the witch hunt is ongoing. But also, if you're a teacher and you're out there and you're saying, he deserved to die, I'm sorry, you should not be teaching children. If you're an airline pilot and you're saying, he should deserve to die, you should not be in charge of flying 300 people around. You literally have a responsibility to all of these people in the background. And if you just don't care about their personal. If you are not even just pretending for responsibility, teacher, professor, social worker, et cetera. I mean, last time I checked, social work is about empathy. Like, what, half the people who are coming in for mental illness are all just left wing? No. You have to be able to have some sort of relations, you know, so my point around cancel culture, or shall we now call it consequence culture, to borrow the initial. Here's the thing. The leftists were correct in one reform, is that we do need guardrails on polite society for employment. And I actually think everybody at this point does kind of agree. The fight should be around the boundary and the fight should all. First of all, we need to keep the government out of it. And so to that extent, it's ridiculous, but we absolutely need to look at it very specifically and have a real convo about what does this mean. We literally. And as the meme says, we live in a society. And so for me, for a lot of my conservative friends and others, I mean, I got an email from a great friend of mine, I don't think he would mind me saying this and he's like, you know, I walk around and I look at a barista or something and I know they don't want to kill me, but it's one of those where I have to wonder like, would they cheer my death? That's really scary, I think for a lot of people. And I would transpose it onto how the mass hysteria again over BLM or maybe me too or any of these other mass cancellation things where it very quickly went from legitimate issue. We have to have a national conversation, which we did. I think it's fair to just full on mass hysteria. People who are like, hey, I think rioting and looting are bad, are getting fired, people are getting censored. That was nuts. It was totally nuts. And I said so at the time. But that's the issue is that it's very obvious that it very quickly descends from legitimate, legitimate to not illegitimate, but much more on the edge. Right, right. And that is the cultural problem of all political movements is that they take something which is legitimate and then it turns into a mass hysteria power grab. And unfortunately, now left, right, look, we all know now, watching the government over the last decade or so, nobody has any principles around this stuff, okay? It's all just a thing about a race to the bottom. And actually I find that the most distressed because you know, Charlie, I wouldn't, I don't know his own personal feelings. I have never talked to him about this. I have a general suspicion he would be against most cancel culture. I mean this was a person who I do think believed in free speech and or you know, at the very least, if confronted with this set of circumstances, has called for grace for people in the past who have even said terrible and objectionable things, hired some of them as well, well, and gave it a second chance. I tend to suspect that if confronted with it and asked in a one on one, I don't think he would be okay with it. But at the same time, and I'm talking about the edge cases here, but at the same time, I don't Know, how can we expect to live with people in positions of power who do hold these thoughts and are able to express them publicly while holding their job? That's a genuine question. I don't know. And that's a social media question too.
- [61:19]
Elias
Yeah.
- [61:19]
Sagar
To me.
- [61:20]
Elias
Well, I think the cultural. I think you raised some really interesting points and here's where you're correct. The culture. First of all, we're going to get to the government piece I think will be in complete alignment. That government coming in and saying you can't do this, you can't say you must mourn Charlie Kirk and if you don't warn him appropriately, we're going to take you, you know, take your passport or you know, we're going to infiltrate left wing groups. All of that like we're going to be completely opposed to. And that stuff is being floated right now by Stephen Miller and Donald Trump. I don't know if you saw he shared some TikTok calling for a Charlie Go Kirk inspired effectively Ministry of Truth to crack down on media organizations. And I know we're gonna be opposed to that across the board.
- [61:57]
Sagar
Absolutely.
- [61:58]
Elias
The cultural piece is, you're right, it is more complex and here's why. Because I do think that we need some level of shame in society.
- [62:06]
Sagar
Exactly.
- [62:07]
Elias
Because now, and now people feel comfortable like you know, to go back to like the some of the things I pose on the right wing and your fascist groiper example, like people feel comfortable posting just overt Nazi shit on Maine.
- [62:20]
Sagar
Yeah, that's.
- [62:21]
Elias
And feel like there will be no consequences for that. And I don't think that that is healthy in a society.
- [62:26]
Sagar
I agree.
- [62:26]
Elias
And especially when you have an intersection with what their job actually is. So for example, if you are a teacher and you're post and you have a classroom of diverse students, a taxpayer.
- [62:43]
Sagar
Funded teacher too especially, and you have.
- [62:45]
Elias
A classroom full of diverse students, white, black, brown, all sorts of class, socioeconomic, whatever and you're out there posting overtly racist or Nazi content that is directly impacting your ability to do your job. And so for me those are the most sort of like clear cut examples where it's like, yeah, you can't continue to employ that person just to add some context to what we're talking about here with these posts. So there's a large scale effort, but organic as far as we know, effort for people to be able to effectively find these social media posts, submit them to a database and they've allegedly got thousands of instances of again, we're not talking about politicians, we're talking about random people throughout the country saying things they find objectionable. Now that original database, which what was the original URL was like Charlie Kirk's murders or something like that, that where they were actively seeking these submissions has now been taken down. They've changed it to like the Charlie Kirk Data Foundation. Data foundation. And they're framing their mission differently because I think they probably got some concerns from legal advice that hey, this could actively be defamation. This could really be a lawsuit if you continue in this direction. But that's the effort we're talking about.
- [64:06]
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- [66:07]
Elias
Let's go ahead and put up some of the examples of the types of posts that are being Flagged and people having like they're, you know, being put on blast and I don't know if it's appropriate to call it doxing necessarily, but put on blast, it's not doxxing.
- [66:22]
Sagar
If you put your name to it.
- [66:23]
Elias
You might put on blast. And having their employers called in this like mass organic effort, so. So here's some of them you've got. These are some of the kind of like more objectionable ones that we found. I don't get why everyone is posting to pray for him. This was worth it for people to have guns. He said it himself. Pray for his kids, not for him. Actually, how about people pray for all the innocent children whose lives were unfortunately worth it when they died in school shootings so people can have their guns instead of these kids having their lives. I'm not happy he died. Just pointing out karma. Another one F around and find out his entire brand was hate and violence. You attract what you preach. His last words were gang violence. Trying to pen stuff on black people. Save your breath for the kid. I was killed in Colorado yesterday. I'm cheering for the assassination. I don't mind saying it. He was a bastard, deserves to be amongst the dead, should have been tortured. You can't force people to mourn someone who hated us. No matter how he died. It's okay to be happy when someone who hated you and called for your people's death dies, even if they are murdered. Call me old fashioned. I remember when we used to be okay with shooting Nazis. Let's put the next one up on the screen.
- [67:23]
Sagar
These are the edge cases.
- [67:24]
Elias
Yeah. And honestly, to me, some of the other ones are. I'm not saying I agree with, but you know, if you're saying I'm not happy that he died, but you know, he was a hateful person, I don't know. To me that's reasonable speech.
- [67:38]
Sagar
Look, and so that's the thing about reasonable speech is that is. And this is a difference from free speech, first amendment and also polite society. I think the clearest example we had there was I'm cheering for assassins.
- [67:51]
Elias
Yeah, right. That's is like, okay, I can see why if you're an employer.
- [67:55]
Sagar
Yeah.
- [67:56]
Elias
You know, you would look for that.
- [67:58]
Sagar
And be like, I'm not gonna say their name. It was a nurse.
- [68:00]
Elias
Right, Right.
- [68:00]
Sagar
As a nurse especially, let's say you are. This is a nurse in a hospital and presumably, let's say you work in the ER or something like that. I mean, you know, to be honest, I. I'm gonna be crazy if I didn't admit this when my child was in the nicu. I'm sitting there being like, look, you know what, if some of these people know who I am, would they treat me differently? I pray no, I don't think so. The vast majority, actually every single person I interacted in the hospital with was overwhelmingly kind, didn't say anything or any of that. And I think that is most people in the healthcare profession. But if you have somebody like this in the healthcare profession and you have somebody who comes in with a MAGA hat on or something like that, we don't discriminate care. That's one of the most basics of healthcare. So yeah, like I'm sorry, you can't be employed, right? And even in some of the cases of saying like, I'm healthy, happy he died, I'm like, well actually it's one of those where I don't really think that's acceptable for people who are in positions where they have to interact with the general public. I also come back to this point about social media where I'm not sure if you know, but sociologically, if you read about this after the Kennedy assassination, a lot of people actually hated Kennedy and were okay with it. Some people, there's stories of people in bars who were cheering after he was killed. This was now in general though, those people didn't face cancellation or whatever, right? They did internally in their social group, but they weren't getting fired. You know why? Cuz they're not out. There's no media to go out there and say, yeah, I'm so happy he's dead. What compels a person to do that? You know, and it's one of those.
- [69:30]
Elias
Where that's a sickness. There also weren't mass efforts though to go and find those people in the bars.
- [69:36]
Sagar
Well, there definitely would have been, you.
- [69:38]
Elias
Know, put them on blag, call their employers, whatever, put B3 back up on the screen. Or B4, sorry, back up on the screen so we can get some of the other examples here. Okay, this one on the left, literally just quoting him, right? Just quoting him. I mean, his own words. I saw someone say online, like if I die or I'm killed, like please put my words out there, like I'm proud of the things I said, I stand by them. So to act like it's like offensive to put up his corporate quotes, I think is crazy. The next one says, let's go ahead and wrap this Charlie Kirk situation up in the next 48 hours. His killing was crazy to see. Wish that wasn't so easily accessible on my timeline. I definitely don't condone that violence. Shifting gears, y' all really try to paint this picture. He was this noble man trying to bridge America together is diabolical. This man was clearly racist, homophobic, sexist, Google, YouTube and X are free. His ideology and his words were extremely dangerous. And the fact the American flag is being flown at half staff is crazy. I said what I said, I'm not going back and forth with nobody argue with your mom and not me. And then I tried to hold my tongue, but I generally do not know how any person could be saying, Charlie Kirk was a good man. Of course it's awful he was shot. So were more children at a school in Colorado yesterday. Yet most of you haven't said a thing about that or any of the other 45 school shootings this year. Someone who didn't believe in here's the thing for me is like, I find the demand that people feel a certain way about his death to be really oppressive. You know that like the demand that everyone mourn and feel remorse and feel a certain way and express that feeling in appropriate way. I think that that is extremely oppressive. Obviously, like I said before, and there's a bunch of these, by the way, where people are literally just quoting Charlie Kirk, especially the Second Amendment. One has gotten a lot of play that are being targeted and some who have already been fired, just literally. In fact, there was a professor who was fired for just posting that one quote. I think that's insane. I think expressing. We've talked before about when someone who. And you and I will disagree about Charlie Kirk and his legacy, likely, but someone who was a public political figure figure, and they die or killed. Like, you don't have any obligation to whitewash them, what they said, what their impact was, et cetera. It's one thing if you're at their funeral and you're trying to make them out to be an asshole, but I think it's important. I think it's actually really important for public discourse and for democratic functioning that you can talk honestly about people who have died or were killed and what they did and what they said and what their legacy was. And a lot of this is really policing the ability to actually honestly grapple with what he believed, what the impact was and what he was doing. And I really object to that.
- [72:40]
Sagar
Yeah, we should. I think we should object to people who are fired over that type of conversation. I think we should. And look, let's be honest, most people are not. And as I said, most of this is a power grab. A lot of people are very upset. And I do think that that probably just factors into it more than anything is the level of emotion and the general feeling for people who are involved, who are like, hey, a lot of these people would cheer my own death. I mean, to be honest, that's probably been my top takeaway. And I was like, oh, okay, I guess this is just how it would be. That's really sick. And there's a lot of deep badness in our culture that has even led us to that. But I do think we should all also just put some baseline stuff on the table if we're all gonna be honest. Everyone believes in a little bit of cancel culture, like a little bit.
- [73:22]
Elias
The question of where do you draw the line?
- [73:25]
Sagar
We draw the line. That is a social question. As I said here with that nurse, you gotta go. Teacher gotta go. Social worker, you gotta go. American Airlines pilot, you gotta go. If you are generally in a position especially of responsibility, power, and if you're a taxpayer, fund funded, it's like, I felt this way about the whole trans thing in classrooms, same thing. I'm like, oh, you think you have a right to our taxpayer dollars and to say what you want? No, absolutely not. And this is just generally what it broadly gets to of the question around norms for us and shame. So, yeah, if you literally are a open fascist, you're like, I don't believe in democracy and I think Hitler was good. Yeah, you gotta go, man. You can't be generally employed here just for polite society reasons. We do need some shame. If you actively say Charlie deserved what he got, I think you gotta go. I really do. And I don't think that you should ever be in a position. Okay, let's not say ever at the current moment. You should not be in a position where you're especially in a position of responsibility and or generally reflective of what a company's values are. Now, part of the issue, as we've said as well, is that it goes into the realm of mass hysterical area really quick. And so what we need to do is kind of separate those two things because, look, we're already in the race to the bottom. I already know none of this will penetrate the national conversation. It's obvious. It's just people are out for blood. People were out for blood during MeToo and Bla. Everybody knows it. It was obvious. And it was used as a political tool also to go after people's enemies. Two great effect. And it also led to. To a massive pushback. So that conversation you were talking about earlier, I forget who I think Glenn might have written about. Christopher Hitchens. Yeah, I was reading about it and I said, oh, that's very interesting. I hadn't thought really about that. And look, we don't have to have hagiography for every person who dies. It's not required. This is a free country and you can believe in actually probably important actually to sit down and kind of say, okay, you know, what are the benefits, et cetera. What was this person's legacy? You could talk to your children about it. But there is a big difference also for coming out and just outwardly cheering it on. And actually I would say the sickness is not just the people who post it publicly. The anonymity is personally what gets me the most. Cuz those are the ones with hundreds of thousands of retweets and or likes. And you're like, okay, like that. I mean, you know, when there's no consequences, potentially, essentially, people are like very willing to hit the retweet button. Very willing to hit the like button. And that is the same irony and dehumanization that led to his assassination. That's the part where I really, really I find sick because everyone's hiding behind their keyboard. People feel no way whatsoever about hitting RT on he deserved it or lol or joking about it. I mean, that's the same lmao, you're gay on the bullet. It's the same mindset. I'm not equating the two whatsoever. I'm saying though, that, that mindset. And listen, I've been guilty of it too. I'll be free and admit it. I'm a human being. You know, sometimes you see a joke which is cruel as shit, and you're like, that's so funny. You know what? I'm done with that. I'm done with that after this. Cause I see it now.
- [76:42]
Elias
One thing I will say though is, look, I haven't done a comprehensive study of the sentiments that are being explored, the people that are being put on blast, but when we were trying to compile some of the worst of the worst, and the ones that you and I both would be like, you shouldn't be fired for that. There were way more of the you shouldn't be fired for that.
- [77:03]
Sagar
Well, that's why I'm comparing it to blm and me too. Most people are not out there being like, hey, George, Floyd deserved to die. Okay? There's a big difference between that and saying, I don't think that violence and liberty looting is Justified because of a dumb MLK quote which is out of context now. A lot more people got fired for the latter than for the former. Same with me, too. Huge number of the so quote unquote MeToo cancellations were complete bullshit and. Or were ones much better left off to HR and a conversation or whatever than actually being able to be go. So. Yes. And look, in some ways, maybe you could take that away as a good thing in that most people are not, you know, most generally, most people are good. I don't think that they actively want people to die, but that's kind of why I brought it to the anonymity conversation, because that's important. Where behind the screen they'll hit the retweet button. He deserved to die.
- [77:56]
Elias
Well. And likes.
- [77:56]
Sagar
And that's sick.
- [77:57]
Elias
Did Elon make likes public again? Did I see that? I saw. I don't know if that's true or not, but they should be public. I think they should be public. I think.
- [78:03]
Sagar
Wait, no. For my own sake. I don't want that public.
- [78:05]
Elias
You don't want that public?
- [78:06]
Sagar
Well, I use it as bookmarks. I don't always like every. When I like something, it's not that I like the post, it's so that.
- [78:12]
Elias
If you go to my likes, you can. But it's not. If you look at your profile, adjust your.
- [78:17]
Sagar
Yes, but then I had a kid here, I click a different page. The like page is very easy.
- [78:21]
Elias
You can't be against the anonymity and be like, I still want the likes to be private.
- [78:24]
Sagar
Don't like them for peer. I don't like them because I want to like them. Listen, fine, make it public. All right, go ahead. All right. My following list is public. My followers are all public. Go ahead. If you want to audit me, be my guest.
- [78:36]
Elias
Here's what I'll say. And then I do want to talk about the government piece, because that's honestly, to me, the scariest piece is if we had a healthy culture, I would have confidence that the hysteria that it is already a witch hunt hysteria, for sure. The people that are being tagged who just quoted Charlie Kirk or whatever, and they're being fired and their employers are being called. It's crazy. Okay, I would feel less stressed about that if we had a healthy culture, but we don't. And so, I mean, that is the sort of thing, like you said, everyone does believe that some things are out of bounds, that you can't just, like, say any. Literally anything and not think they're gonna be any consequences in your life. Right where you draw that line is a constant sort of like ebb and flow tug of war in the culture. Not it shouldn't be from the government. It should come organically from the culture. As you have these cases where it's like, okay, well that went too far. Now we're gonna draw the line here. Or you know what? Maybe we shouldn't allow. This has gotten out of control. We need to be more whatever. But I think part of what is so unnerving is I don't think any of us have confidence that we have a healthy enough culture to draw these lines and boundaries in a place that is going to be sort of like broadly agree.
- [79:52]
Sagar
And the reason I especially feel like the worst about it is because I can see the American right wing doing it now. And I have no doubt whatsoever that when the Democrats are in power power, that it's gonna flip and it'll be the exact same. There'll be Truth and Reconciliation commissions, it'll be all out. You know, anybody who advocated immigration restriction or whatever is a Nazi. It's gonna come full force back. Maybe they'll be more polite about it. But you know, considering again, considering the BLM environment, considering me too. Like this is baked in, in my opinion to like the broad like liberal industrial complex. It's really baked into any political power power movement. Maybe the truth is that that's always been a hallmark of American political culture. And power is to use is not just use, but like to have big tent pole events become power grabs. In the last 25 years. In our initial reaction, the reason I focused so much on 911 and look, I knew this was coming from a mile away. I could see it coming is because think about what it was like at that moment where they hate us for our freedom. I mean, by the way, you wanna talk about real cancel culture, like go back and think about the Iraq war and people who spoke out of it. They didn't have no Internet or whatever to make their own career. They were dead. Gone from the culture, dead. And that is scary. And that's part of what I wanna avoid more than anything. But unfortunately, and this is a segue to the government piece where you saw how quickly it went from they hate us for our freedoms and to Saddam hates us for our freedom. I mean that was a two year period. And then we're invading Iraq and like.
- [81:28]
Elias
That'S the thing I worry about and losing civil liberties.
- [81:30]
Sagar
We never exactly with the Patriot act, what is it? October something 2001 was the Patriot act that people didn't remember famously in the Fahrenheit 911 documentary they didn't even read it and it's one and they just they rubber stamped And I had thought actually that things had changed with a lot of the reaction. But I believe today that it is the exact. I don't think anybody has learned any lessons whatsoever from the post 911 era. And also inevitably what I always caution people is if you don't act from a more principled view and you try to and at the end of the day, people who are elected, we elect you to take a breath and to be stewards like we're podcast we can fire a take whatever. The consequences are not that high. The consequences are very high when you're in the government. And that's exactly what happened after 9 11. We had a bunch of people, people who were like hey, this is pretty convenient time for a little power grab. And it never came back. And then what? Obama was elected as a rejection of that. And what happens? He turns it up on steroids and then what happens after that? Trump comes in, he's like, hey, I got all these powers, might as well use them. Biden never retracts any of them. Now we're on the verge of a Venezuela regime change operation under a 2001 AUMF for terrorism like and allegedly have.
- [82:42]
Elias
They even actually even announced that that's the authority that they're using? I'm saying they don't even feel the need to say with authority.
- [82:48]
Sagar
Right, but where does that come from? That comes from the same thing of I can bomb 15 different countries and Congress has authorized it and they're neutered. So that that is the road that it led us down. And really, it was really poignant to actually speak about this the 2024 years after 911 because I go back every year I reread this book called Days of Fire written by Peter Baker. The exact TikTok of everything that happened. I'm like, man, we haven't learned it. Damn thing.
- [83:14]
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- [83:45]
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- [85:15]
Elias
Within that spirit, let's listen to Stephen Miller. This is B2 talking about his reaction and what the government will do after Charlie Kirk.
- [85:23]
Stephen Miller
And let me tell you something I've not shared with anybody. But the last message that Charlie Kirk gave to me before he joined his creator in heaven was he said that we have to dismantle and take on the radical left organizations in this country that are fomenting violence. That was the last message that he sent me before that assassin stole him from all of us.
- [85:48]
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Us.
- [85:49]
Stephen Miller
And we are going to do that under President Trump's leadership. I don't care how. It could be a RICO charge, a conspiracy charge, conspiracy against the United States insurrection. But we are going to do what it takes to dismantle the organizations and the entities that are fomenting riots, that are doxing, that are trying to inspire terrorism, that are committing acts of wanton violence. It has to stop. And my message to all of the domestic terrorists in this country spreading this evil hate, you want us to live in fear? We will not live in fear. But you will live in exile. Because the power of law enforcement under President Trump's leadership will be used to find you, will use to take away your money, take away your power, and if you've broken the law, to take away your freedom, Sean.
- [86:36]
Elias
So there you go. And I mean there's a few things here. First of all, there's the context of the Trump administration. I mean they used big balls getting mugged to send the national guard to Washington D.C. the story of this administration has been using real or imagined crises to grab power. That's what they do. So I know you and I both, when this happened, we knew where this was heading and many other people did as well. So Stephen Miller, just making it plain and also claiming that that was Charlie Kirk's last message to him. Whether or not that's true is another matter. Doesn't really matter cuz they're going to use it as a pretext for further crackdown. And then the other pieces, and this is something that Klippenstein pointed out to me is, is like the technology now is so much more advanced than in the Patriot act era. Like the level of mass surveillance and mass targeting that you can do using AI is complete. It's complete now. So you've got, you know, Palantir, I recorded a segment with, with her take. Actually I don't know if this is going to air at this point because it all feels outdated now. But about somebody going on Fox News and pitching their Israeli AI threat detection like pre crime bullshit, like these are technologies that exist now. It's part of what we talked about with regard to Doge too when they were in the government and the idea was they're compiling this mass database of every little thing the government knows about you think of how much that is. They know your Social Security, they know what you're paying in taxes, they know if you're divorced and what you're paying in child support. All trying to start a small business, all of those things. They have house and it's never really been possible to conglomerate all of that and cross check it with all everything you've ever posted on social media or anywhere online. Now that tech exists, right? The camera technology, AI driven camera technology with facial recognition, all of that describing.
- [88:23]
Sagar
China like this is what all of.
- [88:25]
Elias
That exists now in a way that it didn't previously. And so the maximal amount of what they wanna do is now on the table. And I mentioned this before, I'll just mention it one more time. Trump is out there sharing a TikTok saying hey, we need a Charlie Kirk effectively Ministry of Trump truth law to pass so that the government has the right to go in and sort out what the media is saying and deem whether it's fact or fiction. So again, these sort of like, you know, the worst fears that were expressed by the Right. During the Biden era about the way the government could be weaponized against conservative media and the way that the government could be weaponized against conservatives and, you know, deny them their basic rights. That is all gelling and coming to fruition under the Trump administration. And, you know, I know they're going to use, they're already announcing it that they're going to use Charlie Kirk's murder to further those ends.
- [89:22]
Sagar
One of the sad parts is a real misbelief, I think, by a lot of the right that this is organized in the way that the Weather Underground is. And so by the way, everybody keeps. One of the things that annoys me most is when people post books and they clearly have not read the book. So the book that everyone is referencing is called Days of. It is one of the best books ever written in modern times. And it is a history of the seventies violence era, specifically with the Weather Underground, you know, the Symbanese Liberation army and all these insane left wing groups at the time who were actually like bombing. Right, like they bombed the Capitol. It was crazy. And there's a separate conversation about how they all just kind of pleaded guilty and then, you know, just immersed into polite society. But whatever. My point broadly about the. The book is, if you read about it, these were actual social cells, for example, who Bill Ayers and the Boudines right, were together in a network planning attacks. What does the hallmark of all this violence show us? It's the opposite. Now, it's not just the lone wolf theory. It's that even our domestic terrorists are the people who are at home doing nothing with their lives. Probably addicted to pornography based on Mr. Robinson's little jokes and all of that. And addicted to gaming in a discord, sitting there, apparently, according to law enforcement, his own boyfriend or whatever doesn't even know what he's doing. Drops out of college, gaming all day online. This isn't even organized to a certain extent. It's like a radicalization of the mind by the. And that happens at the school shooter level. It's same thing. Loser didn't know anybody.
- [91:08]
Elias
It's the same profile.
- [91:08]
Sagar
Spent a lot of time on the Internet. You know, if you look at every single one of these people, a lot of it is mental illness plus Internet plus nothing going on is a recipe for disaster. By the way, I put drugs and porn into that too. Especially if you look at the trans one, the Nazi one, addicted to weed. Just saying. Which of course leads to mental illness at a much higher level. Schizophrenia, outbreak of violence. If you look at the. If you look at the profile similarly, for most of these people, the amount of time these people are logging on is probably 12 to 15 hours a day. I don't think that's an exaggeration. Complete disconnect. And so there's a theory that the FBI, like in the 50s, one of the most famous FBI operations was infiltration and basically the destruction of the kkk. So what they did, again, what was the KKK at that time? It was people together secretly meeting, planning organized violent attacks against people who were, you know, civil rights activists, bus and stuff. Let's think about even, you know, in the Malcolm X or any of that same thing. What was the Nation of Islam? It's an actual church, you know, it's a religious organization. People who come together and all of them. And even the people who allegedly killed Malcolm X, although there's a lot of questions around that, were part of that and were allegedly inspired by that. But my point is that it was in person and it was actually organized. Now we are in the opposite era. Violence is not organized, organized broadly. Most of it is online. There was this huge talk after BLM I remember, of people were like, who were the NGOs funding this? I'm like, guys, that's not what happened. Because I saw it for myself. People who I knew who are out there, you know, rioting or whatever. It was people locked in their homes on the Internet. That's it. They were just, they were mad and they were like, oh, I've been locked in my house, might as well just go burn some shit down. And then people who are, you know, people who are criminals use that as an opportunity to go and loot. And then it's much more of an elite conversation who I think excused all of that and basically encouraged it. But my point is, I genuinely just don't believe that there were broad networks telling people to go riot. It doesn't work that way. I just think people were sitting at home, everybody was. They were like this opportunity to be together and they went out there. Now, are there NGOs who fund that BLM and all that? Absolutely. Don't get me wrong. And you know, quote, going after that. I'm not even really sure what that means. But there is no theory of dismantling the lone wolf violence that we have today that doesn't involve a genuine national convo for parents and more, hopefully backed up by the state. From an informational perspective of get your children off of the Internet unsupervised. I saw, I don't know if you saw that, the photo, picture of Robinson. Yeah, Tyler Robinson's mother in 2013 being like, like, oh, here he is with his computer. He doesn't even want to talk to us anymore. It's like the Breaking Bad.
- [93:47]
Elias
He's this adorable little kid.
- [93:49]
Sagar
He's like a little boy on the, on the Internet. And as a new parent, I'm like, oh my God. That is how quickly it happens. That is how quickly. That was 2013, 12 years later, he assassinates somebody in cold blood. And if you look at the screen time awareness, conversation, people think that people are aware. No, it's in elites and thing now. It's the vast majority of lower middle class and middle class people, they're going screen time all day long. And I don't know, I don't even know if the government can help you at this point. For me, I would mandate a national phone ban in all public schools. I don't know if that's legal. It probably isn't, but that would be my number one thing. Maybe honestly, Chinese style laws which shut stuff off at 8pm it's not a horrible idea. We have got to think radically at this point.
- [94:36]
Elias
So a few things that I want to raise. First of all, just to underscore your point, what you're saying is, I think, correct, that the hallmark of those terror networks was actually connection.
- [94:45]
Sagar
No, it was actual in person.
- [94:47]
Elias
And the hallmark of this terror is disconnection.
- [94:50]
Sagar
Yes, correct.
- [94:51]
Elias
And I think that's a really, that's a very, very important distinction to make. You know, I do like the, as a parent, the other thing about the nature of the content that the Tyler Robinsons or I think the school shooter on the same day, I think his name was Desmond Kelly of the world, are consuming. We're also in this era where the parents really, they know the Internet for the things they use it for. Whatever they're on Facebook or they're emailing or they're looking at a news website or, or a gossip web or whatever. Like they really don't know or understand. It's like a foreign language. It's a totally different culture that their kids may be engaging with. And so, you know, there's just a total lack of understanding. We're also, we've covered too the way now AI adds a whole other layer of that where there was that kid who killed himself. Parents go in and look at the ChatGPT log. They're like, holy hell. We thought he was just asking ChatGPT for like help with his homework. Meanwhile, this was like his best bud, who was encouraging him towards suicide. So there's also this vast gulf between where the technology is, what type of content is online, and how the vast majority of parents actually understand the Internet. And by the way, you see it, too, in, like, the FBI and law enforcement response here, they had no idea what the hell they were talking about because that's why they put out this transgender ideology on the bullets thing. They looked at, I don't know, like, you're gay, laughing my ass off, and think that was like, maybe the bulge, like. And so they had no idea what they were looking at. So law enforcement doesn't understand it. Parents don't understand it. You know, most of society doesn't. So you've got that disconnect. You know, I'm. I don't know, in terms of what to do about it. I genuinely don't know, because I do want to underscore again, again, plenty of other countries have these same things and don't have mass school shootings every other day. So there is something uniquely American about what is going on here, which is why. And I'm always leery of the civil liberties cracks and can't do this and blanket bans from the federal government, but I can't say I'd put it off the table either, because the other thing is, I see how addictive the technology, how hard it is. My son in particular, something about boys, not to be overly gendered, but typically boys, that it's such a pull that it just blocks out the sun. It blocks out everything else in their life if you let them. Which is why that photo of young Tyler Robinson, and they say, oh, we just got him his computer stuff. I guess we're never gonna see him again is really, as a parent, is genuinely terrifying.
- [97:36]
Sagar
Exactly. I'm looking at it right now. It's, like, heartbreaking just looking at it. And maybe that sounds crazy, but it's like you can watch it happen in real time, Literally how this happens. So I don't know. I mean, I think that that is the great question of our age. I'm not, you know, all of this to say, like, look what's coming is coming, and that'll obviously ignite a backlash in and of itself and court challenges and cultural conversation, et cetera. But I have no other take than as parent. If all you can do is step up, you need to stop step up. Like, now. Because I'm online enough to know that this shit exists, but not online enough to get overt fairy furry memes, references, and, you know, I'm like, but I know it exists.
- [98:17]
Elias
But I mean, he dressed up as like a groiper meme for Halloween.
- [98:20]
Sagar
Well, it's not, it's not just groiper. You're talking about the Slavic. See, I wish I didn't even know what this was. Slavic Squad. Yes, I know what the Slavic is.
- [98:26]
Elias
But like, that's how much.
- [98:27]
Sagar
That's how online I am. And just goes to show you that even that. Exactly. Imagine being Jake Tapper on cnn trying to be like, explain the Slavic squat. Okay, I'm like laughing about it, but it's not funny because the vast majority of people who are that age, they can't even conceive of an Internet like that, which is. I'm just on the edge. I know it exists. I get some of the references in the memes. But yeah, I'm not deep in the culture or any of that. And so then now I put myself. My kid is 4 months old, so let me put 18 years in the future. I'm at least aware enough to know I'm not going to a goddamn thing about what's happening. And because that's how rapidly all of this stuff moves. Yep, okay. I hope it was productive. This is literally what, by the way, this is what I hope most of you guys are taking away. Don't sit at home and post stuff about, oh, I'm so happy he's assassinated or whatever, or the opposite, and being like, fuck those people. We need to go get them and destroy them. Sit down and talk it out. Cause like I just said, everybody believes in a little bit of cancel culture. Decide in your own community or at your school or whatever and be like, how are we all gonna talk about this? If you're a teacher, you should have two people talk about just the way that we did about, well, everybody believes a little bit. And this was some of the objectional things I found about Charlie. And the other person says, well, this is the other thing that I found. And here's kind of the way that we would like to approach it and have societal norms, because that's healthy. But this stuff, I don't know, I really have never been more black pilled about our society. But that's a good turn to the.
- [99:52]
Elias
Epstein fight that instinct, Sagar. Because that black pilling and nihilism is problem.
- [99:57]
Sagar
You're right. You're right. And see, that's the problem. Now I'm just as victim to the same social culture and structure that everybody else apparently is just, you know, is either loving or is just either you know involuntarily going down the same path.
- [100:12]
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- [102:13]
Sagar
There are other stories of course, which we had on the back burner now for quite a long time. The Epstein story, of course, one that we've been covering very closely. Let's put this up on the screen. We finally have accountability on the Epstein case. The problem is it's not in this country, it's in another country.
- [102:27]
Elias
This little consequence culture right here, this.
- [102:29]
Sagar
Is actual consequence culture for where the UK has now fired the US Ambassador Peter Mandelson over his links to Jeffrey Epstein. So we talked about Lord Mandelston here on the show. Emily and I, we showed everybody the 10 page love letter basically that he sent to Epstein for his birthday book. But what got him fired is a new extraordinary release of emails. I have not had the time because of this Charlie Kirk thing to go through all this. I promise you all that I will. Let's put this up here on the screen. This is the exact email which was revealed by Bloomberg new trove of Jeffrey Epstein emails that got him fired. Here's what the email reads. Back in June of 2008. I think the world of you. I feel hopeless and furious about what is happening. This is when Epstein is going to jail. Keep that in mind. I can still barely understand it. It just could not happen in Britain. You have to be incredibly resilient, fight for early resistance, be philosophical about it as much as you can. Everything can be turned into an opportunity that you will come through it and be stronger for it. The whole thing has been years of torture and now you have to show the world how big a person you are and how strong your friends stay with you and love you. So that's what he wrote to Epstein as he's reporting to prison for his sweetheart non prosecution agreement. He says that could never happen in Britain. I would hope it doesn't happen anywhere, including in America. And all of this comes from. Let's put this on the screen. I just wanna make everybody aware of this. I am gonna go through it. Like I said, it's a massive trove of emails behind Ghislaine Maxwell. You'll be absolutely shocked by the way to show that Ghislaine lied through her teeth during her interview with Todd Blanche about the timeline, about her involvement, about to the extent that she was recruiting and grooming. But you know, whatever, we'll put that to the side. My the main thing that we wanted to show everybody here just broadly is that there has finally been accountability in the Epstein case. It just happened to be. Not in our country, it happened in the uk. The thing is about Mendelssohn is that he was known for his association with Epstein, but the extent of the relationship was downplayed by him for years. They were like, oh well yeah, we hung out and it was fine, you know, whatever. And then in the last 48 hours, basically a 48 hour period leading to his the birthday book comes out, which I don't think the government knew about. A 10 page letter including photos of him at the island. And then the email where he explicitly is like what's happening to you is such an injustice.
- [104:59]
Elias
I love you so much.
- [105:00]
Sagar
I love you. By the way, he's fishing for more invites. He's like, do your plans include Me at the island this evening. You're like, oh, my God. And the photos that he included in the book of himself at the island. Island with scantily clad women. I mean, it just compounds on top of each other. So, yeah, we finally have a person who was fired for their connection with Epstein. It just happened to be the ambassador from another country.
- [105:24]
Elias
Yeah, well, one of the things that came out, too, in these emails is they, you know, they had a spreadsheet that idolat that itemized nearly 2,000 gifts, they say luxury items. Payments totaling $1.8 million with notations indicated they were intended for Epstein's friends, business associates, and victims. Spreadsheet, which was created by one of Epstein's accountants, includes a $35,000 watch earmarked for a former Bill Clinton aide, a $71,000 purchase at a Lexus dealership for one of Epstein's lawyers. Was that Dershowitz?
- [105:55]
Sagar
Yes, that's right.
- [105:56]
Elias
And other items such as lingerie and chocolate, some for teenage girls who later lodged sexual abuse complaints against Epstein and Maxwell. They also say that the spreadsheet indicates Maxwell very involved in helping arrange all of these gifts and all of these luxury items. So another aspect of his effectively influence operation comes into view here, where he was using these invites, whatever information he could gather on these individuals, you know, in order to acquire, have this circle of rich and powerful people around him. And part of that was the proffering of these luxury gifts to keep them all on the inside. And, you know, this dovetails to. With the reporting from the New York Times about J.P. morgan and why he was kept on as a client there because he had ingratiated himself to some of the executives, number one. And number two, they were openly saying to each other, hey, if all of these rich and powerful men, if they think he's okay, who are we to judge? Even after, again, the details that come out. And he was a registered sex offender, and they're looking at his transactions and saying, this is all really scary. Even in spite of that, the fact that he was able to ingratiate himself with all of these people, in part using these luxury gifts, they decided, oh, no, but we gotta keep him on. And he would bring them business broker meetings for them with people like Netanyahu, people like Elon Musk. And so they felt. They decided to just look the other way.
- [107:25]
Sagar
Yeah, look, it fits with everything that we know. It also fits, by the way, as I talked about accountability, unfortunately, there has been. Now, I mean, the way that these guys are acting is a joke. The house Oversight Committee. Because, look, first, let's give them the credit, which is fair. They got this stuff and they released it. Thank you. Thank you for releasing the birthday book. Now, you only did it because the Damos had already released the Trump page, but whatever. All right, thank you. At least for all of it. Now, though, this whole, remember, if you guys remember this Trump signature seems quaint to talk about this now, even though it was like last week where Trump's White House was saying that the signature itself is fake in this one page of this book, completely compiled back in 2003. But the rest of the book may not be fake and in fact, could be accountable. And to the extent that it's a hoax, it's a hoax for people who care about it, not necessarily the page itself, although the page itself is also a hoax. So here is the House Oversight Committee being asked if they're going to look. If it's a fake signature, are you going to look into it? Because that would be forgery. It would be extraordinary. And here's what the House Oversight Committee chairman had to say. He did not sign it.
- [108:25]
Christopher Ruffo
So I take the President, his word. I don't think the Oversight Committee's going to invest in looking up something 22 years ago.
- [108:31]
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We're going to look.
- [108:32]
Sagar
So you're just going to take the President's word that he. This is not it. What is it?
- [108:35]
Christopher Ruffo
What does it have to do with anything?
- [108:38]
Sagar
Well, if you don't care about what happened 22 years ago, then why'd you release the book in the first place? Right? Because what does it tell us? Because it shows people's close relationship.
- [108:46]
Elias
And by the way, no one else in the book has denied no, it was their signature that they did. Everyone's just stayed quiet.
- [108:53]
Sagar
Actually, no, a lot of them have confirmed it. They've said, I regret sending the message. Or they're like, well, here's what I meant by this. So just so everybody knows, all right, Bill Clinton hasn't denied it. Alan Dershowitz hasn't denied it. Leon Black hasn't denied it. His buddies haven't denied it. Nobody's like, I didn't do it. It was part of the estate. It was part of the Glenn Maxwell trial. Just so everybody knows, it's been around floating there for a while.
- [109:14]
Elias
I will never be over some of the things that were in that book.
- [109:16]
Sagar
I agree. Yeah, I need to pick that story up again and still go find the kid who drew that thing. I have a lead on that, by the way, which. Thank you, people who listen actually sent me some tips, and I potentially have a lead on getting in contact with that person. Last thing here on the Epstein story, we have another one here of somebody who says, I don't even want to see the book, just so they don't have to be asked about it. Let's take a listen. You seen that letter? I've not, but I would love to see it, like, matched with his handwriting. This is a letter really wild.
- [109:46]
Elias
Yeah, I don't want to see that.
- [109:48]
Sagar
He says, I don't want to see it. After the reporter shows him the letter.
- [109:51]
Elias
He says, I'd love to see an analysis of the handwriting. And he's like, well, I have it right here. He's like, oh, I actually don't want to see that at all. I don't want to look at it. I don't want to talk about it. Next question.
- [110:00]
Sagar
What a joke. All right. Will people still care? I kind of hope so. I hope the story doesn't die. So if you're out there, you know, by the way, Charlie, he actually did care a lot about the Epstein story. Just so you guys understand. He did backtrack a little bit later on, but he fought pretty hard behind the scenes, from what I know, for released. So if you do want to fold that into it, I don't think he would want you necessarily to care, to stop caring either. All right, let's get to Israel.
- [110:22]
Elias
Yeah, Indeed. So while we've been focused, obviously, on the killing of Charlie Kirk, understandably, a lot has been transpiring here with regards to Israel, in particular, Marco Rubio. I can put those images up on the screen. Marco Rubio made a trip to Israel, and here we have him and Mike Huckabee there, along with Netanyahu. And I believe that was Ben GVIR praying there at the. At the Western Wall. So we've, you know, how many politicians do we have with photos that look just like this? Democrat and Republican, that just being the very latest. But that's not all. Put this up on the screen. There has been a renewed, invigorated effort to crack down on any sort of anti Israel sentiment. In particular, we have a new bill that has been floated that would give Marco Rubio what the Intercept is describing as thought police power to revoke US Passports. So this dovetails with the government's argument that when it came to Mahmoud Khalil and green card holders, that they could themselves, Marco Rubio himself, deem him to be a material supporter of terrorism based on really nothing, and revoke his green card. So this bill would give Rubio the ability to deny passports to U.S. citizens that he similarly did to have provided material support for terrorism. Now, the only thing that the government ever proffered with regard to Mahmoud Khalil is basically his involvement in these pro Palestine protests that occurred at Columbia University. There was no indication that they have never been able to indicate that he was directly tied to Hamas or providing them direct support in any sort of way. So that's why this sort of legislation is so unnerved, because it would put in the hands of Marco Rubio directly the ability to say, I didn't like what you said there. I'm gonna say, that's material support for terrorism. Guess what? We're pulling your passport and you can no longer travel abroad.
- [112:27]
Sagar
Yeah, this is scary stuff. And denaturalization has kind of been a dream for people in the anti terrorism space now for quite a long time because it's very pesky. It gets in the way of being able to kill your own citizens. If you'll remember during the anwar altar thing during the drone strike, you know, his citizenship is the only thing that saved him from even, you know, the pretense of due process and everything. And so this is, of course, what exactly would be their dream. I mean, I'm generally hopeful that it wouldn't go through. It doesn't look like it's one which has a ton of support. It is, of course, sponsored by Brian Mast. Anybody remember who that is?
- [113:04]
Elias
The guy who wore the IDF uniform.
- [113:06]
Sagar
Uniform into the US Congress. Weird, weird, weird indeed.
- [113:09]
Elias
Combine it got his priorities straight.
- [113:11]
Sagar
Well, you know, it's, it is, it's just crazy. I mean, you have Huckabee and Rubio at the Western Wall paying their respects. Fine. I mean, I've been to the Western Wall, I put a note in or whatever. But it's one of those where they do it now at this point as an explicit expression of political support for the state and then for the war. And then on top of that, they do it in the context of, of all of this extraordinary Israeli action like the west bank, which we're gonna show people in a little bit. It's explicitly to be like, we're here. This is part of the reason. It's religious justification. And that justifies the support for this, all of this secular State of Israel behavior. It's totally nuts. Yeah, it's totally nuts.
- [113:59]
Elias
The idea here behind this Brian Mass bill is basically like, if you oppose the genocide that our country is supporting being conducted directly by Israel, we're gonna to Pull your passport. We're going to, you know, we're going to crack down on you. And obviously they have a track record of doing exactly that already. And that wasn't the only move that was made, though. Lauren Boebert also got in on the action. Could put this next one up on the screen. We've got a, a new bill that just passed the House punishing politically motivated boycotts of Israel. Lauren Boebert apparently added this amendment to the Pentagon budget that targets the BDS movements against Israel. They say in a first step toward a federal law punishing criticism of Israel, House of Representatives on Wednesday passed a massive defense budget that would bar companies engaged in what they describe as politically motivated boycotts of Israel from getting Pentagon contracts. Bill would effectively ban contractors boycotting Israel from tapping most federal contract dollars since more than half of the $755 billion the US government spent on contracts last year flowed through the Defense Department. So if you are a company that has any sort of a principled boycott against Israel, you will be banned from any sort of Pentagon contracts, which is a vast dollar amount in terms of the total amount of contracts given out by the federal government.
- [115:17]
Sagar
Yeah, it's crazy. Crazy.
- [115:19]
Elias
Absolutely.
- [115:20]
Sagar
We were talking earlier and I was like, where do we need cancel culture or consequence culture? Looking at it right here. And yet obviously, obviously, if anything, it's the inverse where if you say anything, you just get nuked by the pro Israel side on this. In fact, there's probably no area of political discourse which faced more cancel culture than this in the last, what, 24, 24 months since October 7th.
- [115:43]
Elias
Well, and we're gonna talk more about this tomorrow and dig into this more. But I mean, this was something that Charlie Kirk was starting to talk about, the level of pressure he felt about staying on message with regard to Israel and that he felt more free to criticize his own government than to criticize this foreign government, which I think millions of Americans are reacting, feeling the same way. Like, what is going on here? These are your legislative priorities. Is this like anti BDS criminalizing any sort of boycott of Israel? Making sure that American citizens can have their passports pulled if they don't toe the line with regard to Israel? Absolutely insane. And also comes as. Put D4 up on the screen. This is significant. So the IDF, the former IDF chief has confirmed that Gaza casualties are at over 200,000. So that is both killed and wounded. That matches up very closely with the Gaza Ministry of Health that we're always told, oh, the Hamas run Gaza Ministry of Health, where Here you have the IDF confirm it. I will say that many other independent experts have looked at the overall numbers, not just of direct killings by the idf, but also, you know, malnutrition, starvation, deaths, the lack of medical care, people who are buried under the rubble, all of those sorts of things, and said that the likely numbers are much, much higher than what the Gaza Health Ministry have said in the hundreds of thousands in terms of number of people killed. But even if we just take this estimate, even if we assume that these numbers are accurate, you're talking about 10% of the population of the Gaza A Strip either killed or injured and now former IDF chief backing that up. And at the same time, we also have the Gaza City mass bombing campaign. In Gaza City. They've effectively said, hey, if you stay there, we're going to assume you're a terrorist. And we're just going to, you know, we're going to bomb and we're going to murder everybody who remains. So forcing people out of Gaza City, which of course previously is the largest city in the Gaza Strip. We can put up some of the images, images here on the screen. I believe this was a university here that they are detonating, blowing up, just destroying any sort of cultural institution. These are high rises. I don't know if they're high rise apartment buildings. You can see the tents in the foreground there of displaced people. Everybody in the Gaza Strip has been displaced probably multiple times at this point. And here again you can see how close they are to those tents of displaced people. This is from Al Jazeera posted this from Ion Palestine where you can see again more of the explosions, detonations that are happening in Gaza City right now. So this is happening as we speak and we also don't want to lose sight of another important piece of this, which is there's been continued attacks on the Western bank and this really escalated. We can put these images up on the screen. They rounded up all of the men and you can see them in this one particular west bank town. You can see them being rounded up and marched out here in absolutely horrifying scenes. So any basically quote, unquote, military age man. My understanding is that they have held on to hundreds of them as effectively hostile hostages here. And this was in retaliation for an attack committed by I believe, two men from this town on the idf. And so in reprisal here, just rounding up all of the men in this west bank town. And it's important, Sagar, to keep your eye on the west bank because, you know, with regard to Gaza. They say, oh, it's Hamas and human shields and blah, blah, blah. Well, the west bank is run by the Palestinian Authority, had nothing to do with October 7th. And yet we see an aggressive, violent crackdown and mass annexation that has gotten so widespread that Jasper Nathaniel said, listen, effectively they've annexed the west bank at this point because the assertion of control is so complete from Israel at this point that to say is anything other than annexed. And obviously this has been given a green light by the United States of America.
- [120:01]
Sagar
Well, yeah, I mean, the Charlie Kirk thing really went. Really obscured this. But here was the direct quote that he said on September 11, Bibi, a Palestinian state will not be established. This entire place is ours. We will preserve it for our heritage, for our land, and for our security. Signing a ceremonial west bank expansion plan. It's there out in the open. It just says this stuff and yeah, I mean, look, I guess it's not a surprise the Kirk thing obscured any potential outcome. Outrage. And then, by the way, the ambassador and the Secretary of State basically go and affirm that same position the very next day. So that's where we are.
- [120:37]
Elias
Yep, that's where we are. And last piece I'll put up on the screen here. Just a news article about this west bank crackdown. This is from Al Jazeera. They say Israeli forces arrest over 100 Palestinians and impose a curfew in the West Bank. Israeli forces have detained more than 100 Palestinians and raised on the raids on the occupied west bank city of Telkaram and have imposed a curfew. Al Jazeera Arabic reports as the Israeli offensive in Gaza City has forced more than 200,000 Palestinians to flee the largest urban center in the enclave. As reported earlier, Israel's military has been conducting raids in Telkaram after it said two Israeli soldiers were wounded when their vehicle was hit by an explosive device. So that's where we are.
- [121:15]
Sagar
Yes, that's right. Okay, thank you guys so much for watching. As usual, talk too much, but it is what it is. We'll try and cover it tomorrow and we'll see you all then. Appreciate it.
- [121:37]
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- [123:07]
Elias
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- [123:27]
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- [123:37]
Sagar
This is an iHeart podcast.