← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
9/18/25: Credit Scores Plummet, Kash Patel Humiliated, Candace Says Kirk Shooter Texts Are Fake
00:45:42
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- [00:00]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:06]
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- [01:36]
Krystal Ball
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- [02:02]
Saagar Enjeti
Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.
- [02:04]
Krystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.
- [02:11]
Saagar Enjeti
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [02:17]
Krystal Ball
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:28]
Saagar Enjeti
We need your help to build the future of independent news media. And we hope to see you@breaking points.com Morning everybody. Happy Thursday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?
- [02:39]
Krystal Ball
A lot to get to. We've got a bunch of news on the economy including a Fed rate cut. We've got Cash Patel getting grilled and not acquitting himself. Equipping, acquitting himself that, well, I don't know, English language is a struggle this morning apparently. We've got a bunch of news with regard to Trump and an incredibly corrupt deal deal in the Middle East. And we also have the cancellation of Jimmy Kimmel state backed crackdown on media lot to get to there. And we have a guest, Robert Malley, who's been involved in negotiations, you know, under the Clinton administration to try to achieve a two state solution, is now critic of that whole process. He's going to join us to talk about his new book and also the very latest developments in the Middle East. So certainly a lot to get to this morning.
- [03:21]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, that's right. Let's by the way, thank you to everybody who's been supporting the show. We really appreciate it. It's a crazy time here, people. Literally. I mean, you know, we were just talking before the show. Abc, Disney is caving to government pressure. I don't really know what else we could say about how insane that is. But at the very least, you know, for all of those who are supporting us, we appreciate it. It at least gives us like a limited tool to fight back if necessary. So breakingpoints.com if you can support us, let's go ahead and start with the economy. As Crystal said, let's put it up here on the screen. The Federal Reserve lowered interest rates by a quarter point, signaling more cuts are likely. This was in line expectations from economists, which is why some of the market reaction was a little bit more muted. But quote, concerns about a job market slowdown are overriding jitters about inflation and justifying a pivot towards a shallow sequence of rate cuts. And Jerome Powell expanded a little bit his view of the economy, inflation, slow job growth and potential stagflation. Here's what he had to say.
- [04:24]
Jerome Powell
My colleagues and I remain squarely focused on achieving our dual mandate goals of maximum employment and stable prices for the benefit of the American people. While the unemployment rate remains low, it has edged up, job gains have slowed and downside risks to employment have risen. At the same time, inflation has risen recently and remains somewhat elevated in support of our goals and in light of the shift in the balance of risks. Today, the Federal Open Market Committee decided to lower our policy interest rate by a quarter percentage point. We also decided to continue to reduce our securities holdings. I'll have more to say about monetary policy after briefly reviewing economic developments. Recent indicators suggest that growth of economic activity has moderated GDP growth. GDP rose at a pace of around 1.5% in the first half of the year, down from 2.5% last year. The moderation in growth largely reflects a slowdown in consumer spending. In contrast, business investment in equipment and intangibles has picked up from last year's pace. Activity in the housing sector remains weak. In our summary of economic projections, the median participant projects GDP to rise 1.6% this year and 1.8% next year, a touch stronger than projected in June.
- [05:49]
Saagar Enjeti
Important comments there about the job growth slowdown and all of that is being backed up right now by hordes of other data. Let's go and put this up there on the screen from the Wall street the two speed economy is back as low income Americans give up gains they say high earners and older Americans are faring better than ever while fortunes and sliding again for low wage and young workers probably synonymous there down at the bottom they say for high earners and many older Americans the economy looks robust. They are spending like gangbusters. Their 401ks and homes have soared in values. They nabbed 3% mortgage rates when they were low. Some might worry about AI eventually for their jobs, but for now the position looks very secure. What they point to is that if you look at after tax wages and salaries by household income and a change from a year earlier, you've seen a huge spike actually in the higher income households but the lower income household has seen a significant decline. They also talk about the unemployment rate slowly creeping up and more importantly the ability to switch jobs being one that is probably more difficult than ever before. Remember that we had in 2021 or so that time when wages and competition and all there were made it so that lower income people large could leverage their wage power and by negotiation or going somewhere else that's gone. It's actually flipped right now. Now is a very very bad time to quit your job or at least do so without having one lined up at a similar wage. A lot of people are reporting actually either lower wages, downsizing in the economy, lack of demand and for right now it echoes the McDonald's CEO's comments about the below 100,000 really struggling in our economy right now.
- [07:30]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, I was thinking about that as well and we covered that and you said that a lot are skipping, skipping meals, skipping breakfast to be able to make it work. And you know, you have your feelings about whether people should be eating a lot of McDonald's anyway, but it's certainly an indication.
- [07:42]
Saagar Enjeti
But if that's all you're eating, that's pretty bad.
- [07:44]
Krystal Ball
Exactly. And certainly an indication of where the economy is. I mean, it makes sense. You have the stock market continuing to soar, backstopped by AI, fueled frankly speculation. I mean the promises in terms of revenue generation haven't really panned down. So there is a risk there. I think a lot of analysts feel that there is a bubble in the stock market. But for now, anyone who's an asset owner, largely older people, are higher income people. They are benefiting. We've talked many times about the housing market struggles. Prices continue to be quite high. I also saw new housing starts are down. So there is less housing that's being constructed. Mortgage rates are high. So very difficult to get your foot on that ladder of home ownership. But if you already own a home, then you have that equity, you have that asset backing your net worth. So the country really coming apart in these two directions, which is why you see these sort of contradictory indications of where the economy is. Although frequently outside of the stock market, most of the indications are looking pretty clear that we are heading towards a downturn if we're not already in one and very likely stagflation. And that's what Jerome Powell's comments really indicate. They are cutting rates because they're concerned about growth, they're concerned about unemployment. We've seen the jobs numbers coming in very low. As Sagar was indicating, you now have too many people and too few jobs jobs. So they're cutting rates for that reason. But there continues to be concern about the way that tariffs in particular are impacting prices. So really not a great landscape out there economically.
- [09:14]
Saagar Enjeti
Consumer debt is also a big problem right now. Let's go and put this up here on the screen. Credit scores are now dropping at the fastest pace since the Great Recession. They say the national average FICO score has dropped by 2 points this year, the most since 2009. Although the credit score does remain higher than during the Great Recession, they are down for the second year in a row. And FICO found a growing share of borrowers are falling behind on car loans, credit cards and personal loans. Younger Americans in particular are, quote, exposed to the double whammy of high student debt and low entry level hiring. Under even more financial pressure, Gen Z borrowers experience an Average credit score drop of 3 points. The biggest decline of any age group since 2020 during the pandemic according to new FICO data. Including, by the way, if we continue on this, let's put that one up on the screen please, about the US housing market just to show everybody where things are it's reached now. It's one of the most unaffordable times in all of history. If you can look actually at that chart, we have a baseline chart there with inflation adjusted home prices. Obviously things fell during the Great Depression. We fell back to baseline after the 2009 crisis. And then you can see this massive spike far surpassing where things were in 2006. This chart is calling it the 2025 bubble. I'm still not even really sure if that's accurate because one of the things that drove, you know, 2007 bubble was using homes as financially speculative assets with mortgage backed securities. Right now though, it's actually a demand or it's a supply and demand problem. It's the supply is just too small and the demand is very, very high because everybody needs a place to live. And with growing population, especially with urban consolidation and also wages staying flat, it gives landlords, homeowners and others a lot more power on top of the soaring housing prices. So is it a bubble per se? Like I'm not getting quite yet ready to go there, but the point about affordability remains standard. Even with the quarter point cut, it's still not going to make a meaningful dent in what your mortgage payment would have been compared to a couple of years ago. And it puts tremendous pressure on people who are even potentially trying to save up. Because think about this, you not only have to save up the down payment if you want to avoid pmi, you also though are going to have to allocate so much more of your after tax income to a potential mortgage which is going to be double than what it was three years ago. And in this particular housing market, that also means you're probably going to get like half of what you original half of a type of house. I've read a lot of stories about people with three or four children who are locked in a much smaller house because they had a bunch of kids over the last couple of years and they're like, we can't leave. They're like we can't afford it. You know, literally we could sell it, but then if we'd have to buy something else at a current mortgage rate, we would not be able to afford what we actually want. So we'll just make it work. Those are the people lucky enough to already have a house. If you're already, if you're 27, 28, you were kind of thinking about it. It's a tough time right now.
- [12:18]
Krystal Ball
It's very, very difficult, I think, to go back to the credit score thing too. I mean, that's a really troubling indication that people, credit scores are following. I mean, that's a great point too, is that makes it even more difficult to be able to get a mortgage if that's something that you're looking at. I mean, it just complicates your entire financial life. But it's also an indication people are using more and more debt debt to try to maintain and then falling behind on debt payments. There's a chart out there as well that you guys can go and take a look at of student loan delinquencies over 90 days. And when I tell you the way that that thing spiked, it's again very troubling and I think longer term too. Zooming out from the present moment and the, I guess shaky at best economic circumstances out there, there used to be a story and understanding of what you needed to do to achieve that middle class life. It was like, go to college, take on the debt, but you're gonna get paid back in your career and it's gonna be fine and you'll get healthcare from your job, et cetera. And if you look at the unemployment rate now for college graduates, that rate is quite high. So there's no longer any certainty. You know, my daughter is a senior in high school, my oldest daughter is a senior in high school thinking about where to go to college and what to do with her life, et cetera. And there's. I have no real answers for her because as much as closely as I follow this, like no one knows what the impact of AI is going to be. No one knows what this country and the world is going to look like in a few years. So kids her age who are trying to make these decisions for their lives and do the right thing and set themselves up, they're at a loss for how to just do the basics of establishing themselves at this point.
- [13:52]
Saagar Enjeti
I know it's really devastating on the student debt piece with the higher interest rates and a lot of these. I think that maybe, hopefully this is a psa. There are a lot of people who listen to the show who are younger or maybe you have a younger brother or, or a sibling, be very careful about student debt. Internalize and understand what a 7% or 8 or 9% interest rate actually looks like relative to your potential income in the future. Because these things just sound like gobbledygook. When you sign a paper and you're 18 years old, you don't truly understand the impact of what $2,200 a month is actually gonna look like. Even if you're a doctor and you're making 80, $90,000 a year as a resident, even at 2,300k. Okay, so. So look, that's objectively a lot of money. Well, let's say a third of that goes to tax. So now you're at 200. And your student loan servicing, even if you're making the minimum payments, is 60, $70,000. You're making 130. You live in Chicago, New York, Washington, DC, LA. I mean, you're not living the high life, Doc. Like, you need to really internalize that. Dentist is the same way people look at it. They're like, oh, it's a great way to get rich. I'm like, you're not a 1980s orthodontist who was able to get their little dental degr and then make a shitload of money selling kids braces. It doesn't work like that anymore. In the private equity economy. Veterinarians is another one. Everybody has this dream. I'm like, I'm gonna own my own little practice. That's not how it works. In 2025, private equity has rolled all these people up. You are a W2 employee. Your upside is capped dramatically. Maybe it works in a small town, but where I live and where the vast majority of the US Population lives, that is not how it works anymore. Plumber, even some of the traditional blue collar trades, a lot of that has been rolled up. So you are at more of a mercy of cor power. And your upside is way more capped than any time I think in the future. Please, please be careful, because I've seen it in my own life. People who are chained, they have no choice. And, you know, sometimes life will hit you. You'll have a kid and you're like, I don't even have friends going through this right now. I don't even want to work. Guess what? You got no choice. Your ass is going to work, and you're going to pay $60,000 a year for daycare and for your debt servicing. You know, now you have barely enough money where if you get to go out a couple times a week to eat, you're lucky. These are people who are making big money. And so imagine if you're making $65,000 a year?
- [16:14]
Krystal Ball
Yeah.
- [16:14]
Saagar Enjeti
I don't even know.
- [16:15]
Krystal Ball
And what has basically, I mean, the core building blocks of, we've talked about this a million times, of like a basic middle class life have gotten so wildly expensive. Housing, education, health care. So expensive. Okay. And what has kept people satiated is their ability to buy a bunch of random crap. Right. And so we have this illusion, we see everybody in like, you know, nice clothes and nice car and, you know, like going about life looking like they're affluent. And yet those pieces are increasingly out of reach. And so what the tariffs do is they make that stuff also more expensive. So you're getting squeezed from all directions. And that is really starting to show up in the economic numbers at this point, which is why, if we can put a six on the screen, Trump has an idea. How about we just don't look at the economic numbers anymore? Trump proposed that we ended quarterly earnings reports. The SEC says that they are prioritizing that. And we've had a bunch of. It's no mystery why he's doing this. We had a bunch of Trump world officials come out and say, yeah, the economic landscape not great now, but just wait a year, just wait a year, it's going to be great. We're going to get the great American comeback. Like, don't pay attention to these numbers now. And so between the firing of the head of the BLS and the pressure on the Fed and then this attempt to make it so that corporations aren't actually having to come forward and report to the public what their earnings are on a quarterly basis, they are just trying to either manipulate or hide the numbers of what's really going on so that people, as if people can't tell in their own lives what the economic reality is. And so, I mean, Trump has tremendous ability to create a false reality, create a false impression. And even when it comes to the economy, some of that works. If you've ever seen the polls where it's like when Trump gets sworn in, suddenly Republicans feel great about the economy and suddenly Democrats feel terrible about the economy. And if a Democrat were to get elected, then it would totally flip. But you still have a lot of people who have an independent sense of, am I making it at the end of the month, am I able to pay my bills, Do I have hope for my kids and what their, like, what are prices, what are prices this year versus last year, et cetera. And so I hope, I think, that the reality distortion mechanisms he's trying to employ here to hide the truth from people about the reality of the economy, I think they will have limited effect since we all have our own individual personal daily experience with how things are going.
- [18:51]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, I mean, that happened under Biden. I've said it a million times. The s and P500 was up 60% over the total of Biden's press presidency. And people still said what? The economy sucks. It's not like the disconnect is dramatic. And by the way, people even saw some wage growth under Biden. But. And of course they would hammer that home. The greatest economy we've built back better. And people were like, yeah, but the wage increase doesn't keep up with healthcare and education and cost of living and housing. And I could go on forever. Right? And so that's.
- [19:23]
Krystal Ball
I can't buy steak anymore at the grocery store.
- [19:25]
Saagar Enjeti
Steak is unironically. If you see somebody eats a steak once a week, you're like, this fucker is rich.
- [19:31]
Krystal Ball
Like insanely expensive.
- [19:32]
Saagar Enjeti
It's crazy. If you look at the grocery store sticker and if you like to buy like decent stuff, like stuff that's grass fed or anything, good luck to you. And I see it all the time. And you know, it's funny, you know, be at the grocery store and you see the meat section or any of this. In my opinion, this could be totally, you know, subjective. I see less people do it. I see less people there, I genuinely do, who are picking stuff out. Or you always see the clearance section or the stuff with the deals and all that. It's cleaned out every time that I go. Maybe it's just where I live, but I'm just saying that's my own personal experience generally. I will say on this Trump thing, I know why he's doing it. I think it's kind of a good idea. And the reason why is that I know why he's doing it. But quarterly earnings actually are a really perverse incentive. And the idea that you have to release quarterly earnings is basically all built around constant check ins in the company so that the stock price is fluctuating. It's what also encourages a lot of companies right before earnings to try and juice things further.
- [20:37]
Krystal Ball
There's all kinds of, yeah, financial manipulation, more stable countries.
- [20:41]
Saagar Enjeti
You know, maybe I've been sounding a lot like China fanboy recently, but I think there's a lot to learn from them. They have a very different way of reporting financials and one of the reasons why is because they think shareholderism itself is bad. I've talked about how the Shanghai Stock Exchange is relatively flat to 2009, even though their countries become dramatically richer, more innovative, much more better off for the average citizen and not necessarily for the financial engineers in their capital markets. I think that's kind of how a good society should look. So we should ask broader questions here, not just about quarterlies, but about a bigger thing about reporting earnings and what it means for how we think about companies, economic health. Because your ability to buy back stock is not in any way reflective of your actual value, both to society or to your consumer. It's only to the shareholder. So shareholderism itself is horrible. Quarterly is part of that. Everything is designed, I think, for the top private hedge funds and all of these other people or the asset class people who own millions of dollars in stocks or 401k holders. And that's fine. I mean that's the social contract. That's how we all get rich allegedly is like just auto buy the S&P 500. And that does usually work because that's how the system is worked up. But my point would be that you're not actually getting a lot richer or at least the people who have a lot of money are. But for the vast majority, I don't really think that's how it's working out.
- [22:05]
Krystal Ball
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I also have no illusion that it would take a lot bigger changes to the economy. It would change an entire reorientation of our economy to change shareholderism, short term thinking and the financialization of every aspect of our economy. And so in my view, this change is just meant to provide cover to Trump and hide the reality of what's going on as we enter a period that they know well and good is going to be quite ugly for most Americans.
- [22:33]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, well, we'll see. We will see.
- [22:36]
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- [23:36]
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- [24:10]
Krystal Ball
Is changing and so is the world.
- [24:13]
Saagar Enjeti
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [24:21]
Candace Owens
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
- [24:24]
Saagar Enjeti
Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global story.
- [24:28]
Krystal Ball
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection section where the world and America meet.
- [24:33]
Saagar Enjeti
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:41]
Krystal Ball
So Cash Patel facing a lot of challenging questions in front of a House committee yesterday on Capitol Hill and not handling himself all that well. Questions about, you know, the investigation right now into Tyler Robinson, questions about Epstein, questions about other issues regarding the FBI. He has become this sort of central character. Let's go ahead and take a listen to some of the lowlights from his performance.
- [25:07]
Congressman/Interviewer
Remembering your oath to tell the truth. Did you ever tell Donald Trump his name is in the files?
- [25:13]
Cash Patel
I have never spoken to President Trump about the Epstein files.
- [25:17]
Congressman/Interviewer
Did you ever tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?
- [25:22]
Cash Patel
The Attorney General and I have had numerous discussions about the entirety of the Epstein files and the reviews conducted by our team.
- [25:28]
Congressman/Interviewer
Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?
- [25:31]
Cash Patel
And we have released where President Trump.
- [25:33]
Congressman/Interviewer
Did you tell the Attorney General that the President's name is in the Epstein files?
- [25:37]
Cash Patel
During many conversations that the Attorney General and I have had on the matter of Epstein, we have reviewed.
- [25:43]
Saagar Enjeti
The question is simple.
- [25:45]
Congressman/Interviewer
Who tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in Epstein files? Yes or no?
- [25:51]
Cash Patel
Why don't you try spelling it out yes or no? Use the Alphabet.
- [25:55]
Congressman/Interviewer
Yes or no?
- [25:56]
Cash Patel
No. ABC Director, it sounds like you don't.
- [25:59]
Congressman/Interviewer
Want to tell us. Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name was in the Epstein files.
- [26:03]
Cash Patel
Why don't you try serving your constituency by focusing on reducing violent crime in this country? And the number of pedophiles that are legally harbored in sanctuary cities in California. I work with you on that regular order.
- [26:15]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Mr. Chairman.
- [26:16]
Saagar Enjeti
Director. I belong to a gentleman from California.
- [26:19]
Congressman/Interviewer
Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?
- [26:22]
Cash Patel
Question has been asked and answered.
- [26:24]
Congressman/Interviewer
You have not answered it. And we will take your evasiveness as a consciousness of guilt. You said you don't know the number of times Trump's name appears in the files. So it could at least be a thousand times. Is that right?
- [26:37]
Cash Patel
The number is a total misleading factor. We have not released anyone's. We have not released anyone's name in the FC files that has not been credible.
- [26:45]
Saagar Enjeti
Director.
- [26:46]
Cash Patel
Could have released every piece of legally permissible information. You can characterize the numbers however you want it.
- [26:52]
Congressman/Interviewer
Claiming my time. Director. It sounds like if you don't know the number it could at least be a thousand times. Which makes me.
- [26:59]
Cash Patel
It's not.
- [27:00]
Congressman/Interviewer
Is it at least 500 times?
- [27:01]
Cash Patel
No.
- [27:01]
Congressman/Interviewer
Is it at least 100 times?
- [27:02]
Cash Patel
No.
- [27:03]
Congressman/Interviewer
Then what's the number?
- [27:04]
Cash Patel
I don't know the number. But it's not that.
- [27:05]
Congressman/Interviewer
Do you think it might be your job to know the number?
- [27:08]
Cash Patel
My job is to provide for the safety and security of this country. My job is not to engage in political innuendo so you can go out to the sticks and get your 22nd hit. And your fundraising article. Keep going. Reclaiming your time because the people of California are being underserved by your representation is not implicated.
- [27:26]
Congressman/Interviewer
Why not release everything that involves.
- [27:28]
Cash Patel
We have released everything. The president and anyone else's side that is credible and lawfully be able to be released. Your fixation on this matter and baseless accusations that I'm hiding files is disgusting. Anyone that says that needs to look at the stats alone.
- [27:44]
Saagar Enjeti
The president has. You've seen the picture of the woman's body with the writing and the president's signature? The president says that's not his. Okay. President says it's not his. The Republican colleagues say it's not his. The administration say it's not his. Will you be opening up an investigation into the Epstein estate for putting out a fake document with the president's signature linking him to the world's largest pedophile ring? Will you be opening that investigation into that?
- [28:06]
Cash Patel
On what basis?
- [28:08]
Saagar Enjeti
On what basis? They literally put out a fake document. According to the president. With a fake signature. It's a forgery of the President of the United States Signature. That's the basis.
- [28:17]
Cash Patel
Sure, I'll do it.
- [28:18]
Saagar Enjeti
Okay. I look forward to that investigation.
- [28:20]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, I'm sure we won't be holding our breath on getting back to us on that one.
- [28:24]
Saagar Enjeti
Crashing out, man won't answer the question.
- [28:26]
Krystal Ball
He's not even. He's not even remotely artful at this either. You know, he just like tries to divert and start screaming about California and reciting the ABCs. It's like, dude. And we're gonna get to some of the MAGA world skepticism into the Tyler Robinson investigation. Like, a big part of why there are so many conspiracies proliferating on the right in particular is because of Epstein and Cash Patel being at the center of that and losing all credibility with anyone who's remotely paying attention. So that's part of why Democrats continue to hammer on Epstein. That and, you know, I mean, before Charlie Kirk was assassinated, we're digging into that birthday book, which was quite shocking. Trump's thing in there actually being one, one of the less shocking things, amazingly. But there was a whole Epstein news cycle and there has been so much trust broken with people who cared about any sort of accountability, justice, transparency, et cetera. And that bleeds over into assessment of his handling of anything else that comes before him.
- [29:29]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, I think really the takeaway from here is that he's an idiot and incompetent. We saw all of that on Tyler Robinson. We saw it previously on Epstein. Unfortunately, not enough people put pressure on Kash Patel. There was at a time when, and you know, I think he was kind of precarious just because of his handling of Epstein, but they basically let him get away with it. And it actually manifests with the Robinson case. I do think that the Epstein part of it, though, is very important because it set the tone for why should we trust anything that you have to say? I mean, remember, I think Ryan and Emily covered it yesterday when he testified that nobody had ever been trafficked by Epstein, that there wasn't a shred of evidence. And you're like, well, okay, I mean, that's just quite literally not what you said previously. And you can claim that you were totally wrong, which I guess is kind of what he is claiming. But it looks pretty sketchy in the context of everything else going on with the administration. That is important context genuinely for Robinson, because as we're about to show you, he doesn't even know anything about other high profile investigations under his purview, like Thomas Matthews crooks the Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Here's what Cash had to say about that.
- [30:38]
Congressman/Interviewer
When your pres. When your president sat right there in that seat a couple years last year in a committee hearing, I asked him a very detailed question about Matthew Thomas Crooks, the shooter responsible for the assassination attempt on President Trump's life. I did get an answer from Chris Wray that day, and I submitted written questions to the FBI and into the record of this committee. And I want to resubmit those questions today because I think we are still awaiting answers to those questions. So, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to submit some for the record, please. I'd like to ask you, sir, and the FBI under your leadership, would you please respond to these questions and can and you commit to doing that as.
- [31:13]
Cash Patel
Soon as the trial's over.
- [31:15]
Saagar Enjeti
So did you catch that? As soon as the trial is over. Who are you talking about? Thomas Matthews or. Sorry, Matthew Thomas Crooks is dead. He was sniped in the head. It's pretty clear he got confused between Crooks and Ryan Ralph. Right. The other attempt, I mean, that's. I'm generous and I'm giving damn generous at this point. Everyone's like, wait, hold on a second. What again? Crooks is dead. And remember this, the actual. All the files and everything that he pledged to release about the assassination, nothing. We still don't know anything about Crooks, about motivation, about. I mean, there's been no transparency. They shut it down under the Cash Patel leadership. It's still. It's one of the most nuts things, high profile assassination attempts that's happened in modern memory of a literal, you know, presidential candidate, former president. They got all up in arms about it and they haven't released anything.
- [32:08]
Krystal Ball
So we know more about Tyler Robinson.
- [32:10]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, you're right already, we do.
- [32:11]
Krystal Ball
Than we do about him.
- [32:12]
Saagar Enjeti
That's what I think. Emily said it. We're like, look, I'm glad he's alive, because if he wasn't, it's gone. You know, it's all gonna be under the rug. The fact that they have to put him on trial, also the fact the state is putting him on trial makes a little bit less room for screwery, but, you know, we'll see.
- [32:25]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, because my understanding is then the trial will be public too.
- [32:28]
Saagar Enjeti
Exactly. Whereas federal discovery. It has to come out, you know, the files, everything will be. He either will testify in his own defense or, you know, even already, we know a ton because of a criminal complaint filed against him. We know something, you know, whether it's true or not, we'll get into there in a little bit. But considering the way that this guy is conducting himself, you cannot have confidence that he even knows at the very basis of what he's talking about. And that fits here where a congressman asked him about Dylann Roof, who I would just generally guess that anybody tangentially involved in politics knows about Dylann Roof.
- [33:02]
Krystal Ball
Absolutely.
- [33:03]
Saagar Enjeti
Dylann Roof is, of course the guy who killed. He was a white supremacist killer. He slaughtered What, I think nine black people in that church.
- [33:10]
Krystal Ball
Charleston, right.
- [33:11]
Saagar Enjeti
In 2015. It was a huge moment for the country. Remember Obama was at the funeral. I mean, it was everywhere. Anybody was even remotely, you know, following the politics, I think would know who that is, let alone the top law enforcement officer of the country here. He says he doesn't even know who Dylann Roof is. Let's take a listen.
- [33:29]
Krystal Ball
Dylann Roof, who followed white supremacist propaganda.
- [33:34]
Saagar Enjeti
Murdered nine black parishioners in Charleston in 2015.
- [33:38]
Krystal Ball
Do you deny this?
- [33:40]
Cash Patel
I'm sorry, Dylann Roof.
- [33:42]
Saagar Enjeti
Roof.
- [33:43]
Cash Patel
Roof. Can you give me some more information?
- [33:47]
Krystal Ball
You head of the FBI, you probably know this. If you don't know, that's fine.
- [33:51]
Cash Patel
You can give me a reminder. I've got a lot in front of me.
- [33:54]
Krystal Ball
It was national news. Oh my God. The crazy thing is too, that she doesn't just say, do you know who Dylann Roof is?
- [34:01]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah.
- [34:01]
Krystal Ball
I mean, it would still be bad because he's. That's one of the names that is most familiar to people thinking about horrific mass shootings, et cetera. Adam lands, you know, he's in that. On that level of awareness. But it's not like she just even says like, do you know who Dylann Roof? She's like, in 2015, a white national, a white supremacist, went and murdered black people in a church. His name was Dylann Roof. Are you aware of that? And he's like, yeah. Never heard of him. Don't know. You gotta give me more info. I mean, what the. Like, I guess one explanation is obviously the direction she's probably going in is saying, listen, you're trying to paint all extremists as being left wing. Isn't this an example of right wing extremists? Here's the statistics. And maybe he doesn't want to go down that path. So he just tries to stop it at the beginning by pretending he doesn't know who Dylann Roof is. But I think he genuinely had no idea. And that is so insane. I mean, it's just like so insane that we are being Ruled by the dumbest people possible. And, you know, even from like a Trumpian lens, because what does he care about, like, the way you look and present on TV and like, playing the part and being out of central casting doesn't exactly fit the mold there either, which is why apparently he's under some pressure and there's some possibility that he's gonna be ousted. But for now, it seems like they're keeping him in place. He has no faith. I mean, obviously Democrats, Independents, like, they're like, this guy is a joke. But he's lost complete faith with the MAGA base as well. So what are we doing here? This is absolutely stunning, stunningly bad. One of the craziest things I've seen.
- [35:42]
Saagar Enjeti
In 2015, Cash was a federal prosecutor in the DOJ in the counterterrorism division.
- [35:47]
Krystal Ball
Oh my God.
- [35:48]
Saagar Enjeti
How do you not know Dylann Roof had federal hate crime charges that were brought against him, Remember? Yeah, he's in prison. Yeah, he's in federal prison. I believe he's on death row. Wow.
- [35:59]
Krystal Ball
And if you're like serious about you're.
- [36:01]
Saagar Enjeti
Working here in Washington in the doj, you don't know who Dylann Roof is.
- [36:04]
Krystal Ball
If you're even remotely pretending to care about domestic extremism.
- [36:09]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah.
- [36:10]
Krystal Ball
And you don't know the basics of that. It's just. What can you even say? Like, it's such a joke. It's just such a joke.
- [36:16]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, just. I'm stunned. Yeah, actually. Cause I knew I already knew it was bad with this. I don't even know what to say.
- [36:26]
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- [38:09]
Krystal Ball
America is changing and so is the world.
- [38:13]
Saagar Enjeti
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [38:21]
Candace Owens
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
- [38:24]
Saagar Enjeti
Tristan Redman in London, and this is the global story.
- [38:27]
Krystal Ball
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [38:33]
Saagar Enjeti
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Why don't we get to the Candace thing, because this is a setup of what the downstream lack of trust in cash Patel law enforcement and all that generally is showing where there is a huge amount of skepticism. Ryan and Emily covered the text messages yesterday that were put in the criminal complaint against Charlie Kirk alleged assassination Tyler Robinson, and including these text messages between Robinson and his boyfriend. And in those text messages, he appeared to not only confess to the crime, but also talked about wanting to go back and retrieve the rifle. However, a lot of people are focusing on some of the particular language that is being used here by Robinson. Candace Owens, one of the more high profile people, people questioning the legitimacy of these messages. Here's what she had to say.
- [39:25]
Candace Owens
Yeah, these messages are clearly doctored is what I would say. They're doctor now. They could decide why they're doing that. Tyler's being court, you know, forthcoming. We're protecting him in some capacity. I find that to be unacceptable. Okay? Unacceptable. I want every single text message. I want timestamps. It's. It is conspicuous that you are not telling us when this was sent because it sounds like it's when the campus is on lockdown and he's got to go back, he's got to clean up, and then all of a sudden we're in the next day when his dad is getting clued in after the picture's been released. They're not telling us that. Okay. And you have a right to be a little bit uncomfortable about that because I'm a lot a bit uncomfortable about that. We need full answers.
- [40:09]
Saagar Enjeti
And as bad as it's presented in Utah, I'm not buying all of it. I'm particularly not buying those text messages. It just seems too stilted, too much like a script, actually a bad script. That's from Steve Bannon and from Candace Owens. Their allegation, I mean look, nobody really knows. By the way, Matt Walsh, many others have said the same thing. What they're saying is it almost looks as if Robinson is trying to absolve a boyfriend of pre knowledge of the crime and of helping planet. I mean it's theoretically possible. They pointed to Breaking Bad, for example, the famous Walter White scene where he tries to absolve sky on the phone. I wouldn't put it necessarily out of the realm of possibility because if we're being. I mean look, this is my own pure speculation. The messages are a bit weird. I mean one of the things Candace.
- [40:55]
Krystal Ball
They're really weird.
- [40:56]
Saagar Enjeti
One of the things Candace brings up is vehicle. She was like go in your text messages and search for the word vehicle. And I looked at it. The only time it has ever appeared is whenever I get a message from the service department of the car dealer saying your vehicle has ready for service. Or from one of those spam messages from China where they pretend to be the dmv, right. And they're like your dmv, your vehicle registration service plus plus three area code. Your vehicle has exactly. Your tags have expired. There is not a single other reference. No, actually I did text my wife once about Secret Service vehicle.
- [41:36]
Krystal Ball
That's what I said, Secret Service vehicle.
- [41:38]
Saagar Enjeti
That's the only time I've ever referred to my car as my vehicle or sorry to a car as a vehicle.
- [41:44]
Krystal Ball
We're not Gen Z either. This is a 22 year old who's saying, who's typing like. And you know we had Ryan and Emily had Ken Klippenstein on yesterday. He'd spoken with his friends who said he was like pretty nonverbal, like he wasn't a very communicative individual. And then you see the oh my love comma that's the thing that got me is like the, the full on sentences and punctuation because we're not imagining him at a computer typing. He's supposed to be like on his phone in the midst of what they're searching for me, he just murder some dude and he's typing out these full on like sonnet and using all this FBI speak in terms of the way he's communicating. And then the other part of it is like, it's very fortunate for the FBI that he fills in the blanks of all of the investigation pieces. Like, talks about the gun, talks about premeditation, talks about where he left him, talks about the outfit change. This part at the end where he's like, remember when I was engraving bullets with these memes? Listen, it may be legit, but to tie it back in with cash, when you have Cash Patel, who is both an incredibly like, you have a politicized FBI run by Cash Patel, who is also an idiot and a moron and incompetent, then, yeah, you're gonna have basically no one believing what you're putting out. And so I saw this across the board. Like, liberals don't believe it, leftists don't believe it, Maga doesn't believe it. Maga's theories kind of fall into two buckets. A bunch of them think that the messages are just completely faked by the FBI because Israel killed him. I don't see any evidence of that. Just putting that out there. That is one theory that is being routinely floated. And then the other bucket, and this is where Candace's theory is that basically the messages are designed to absolve the roommate, boyfriend, lover. And so that's why they look so strange, to be honest. I mean, listen, I have to see some evidence outside of just. They feel weird before I'm gonna float or concoct any sort of theory. But I don't think it's like, I think it's very reasonable that people are looking at this and going, this is a way. A 22 year old text. Okay, that's really strange.
- [43:57]
Saagar Enjeti
It seems chatgpt. So, for example, another thing Candace said was search your text messages for retrieve. So I should. There are three retrieves in my entire history of having an iPhone. So since 2000, 2014, two out of the three are about golden retrievers. The other is a friend of mine on a bachelor party saying, I'm happy to retrieve some Zinn. That is the only mention of retrieve in my entire text message history.
- [44:24]
Krystal Ball
Also, I should message him and be.
- [44:26]
Saagar Enjeti
Like, why are you using the word retrieve?
- [44:27]
Krystal Ball
Calling his dad his old man is like, I mean, maybe that's a Utah thing. I don't know. He's got in here. He got the motive in, he got the premeditation, he got the rifle. Details. Again, this was very fortunate for the FBI that they had this very strange stilted conversation that laid out everything and filled in all of the holes in their investigation. That was very, very lucky for the FBI that that all occurred in that way. So I don't know, I had my daughter, my 17 year old look at it and she was like, mom, there is no one that texts like that. And she even noticed things like, okay, so a Gen Z thing is to turn off the auto cap so that at the beginning of.
- [45:11]
Saagar Enjeti
You guys stop doing this.
- [45:12]
Krystal Ball
So at the beginning of sentences, you know, it's not capitalized. They see it as like an old person thing to have your sentences capitalized. And in these texts, half of them are not capitalized and then half of them are. She also said, you know how there's like, there's ellipses in here too. Now, I don't know if the ellipses are only where they like cut off, you know, because they're. The conversation's not reproduced in full. But she also said those are like old people dots. Anyway, there's just, there's strangeness in the conversation itself. It's very convenient for the FBI. And then when you add to it Kash Patel being a political apparatchik and an absolute complete moron, then you get across the board, people being like, I just don't fucking believe it. Sorry, don't believe it.
- [45:58]
Saagar Enjeti
Our producer Max says calling it a squad car instead of a cop. He's honestly something there. I don't even know if I've ever to use the term squad car.
- [46:06]
Krystal Ball
So to play devil's advocate, okay, this guy is a Mormon, raised in this small town, sheltered environment in Utah, and he's very high iq, potentially autistic. I mean, I'm just speculating. Possibly or mentally ill, probably both. Maybe. Maybe a little bit of both. He just murdered someone. I don't. Allegedly, I don't know yet. Maybe that changes your communication style because it certainly doesn't fit with other communications that were released like from Ken in the discord messages. But the level of adrenaline. And you did this in some ways on behalf of your lover and you're communicating with them. If I had to explain them in a non conspiratorial way, those are the pieces I would put together to say, well, maybe that's why. But certainly not very intelligent. If you were thinking that you were gonna get away with. With this, to then go. Cuz he says like, oh, I'm take this to, you know, I was hoping I could take this to my grave or, you know, when I'm an old man or whatever, to then go and lay out Every element, constituent element of the crime in easily discoverable text messages. So not the. Not the brainiac move there.
- [47:16]
Saagar Enjeti
Again, I reserve the right to be skeptical. I am just. I still think it's all weird, the entire thing. It seems odd. It seems quite plausible and reasonable. Reasonable that he is trying to absolve his lover of any potential legal threats. I mean, or of any potential, like, legal exposure. You will recall the governor had said it did appear that they didn't know anything about it and that they don't believe at this time that there's some sort of grander conspiracy. I still find that a little bit hard to. I mean, look, the circumstances are weird. Like, you had that guy in the crowd. Yes, I understand. And he was kind of crazy. I don't know. I just find the entire thing a little bit preposterous.
- [48:00]
Krystal Ball
They've given us no reason to have confidence in their narrative.
- [48:02]
Saagar Enjeti
That's what I was gonna say because I have covered this for so long, and now with cash at the top, it's not just Epstein for me, it's Steven Paddock. It's. I mean, even some of the. Like the Pulse shooting, right? San Bernardino. What else am I thinking? Parkland, Uvalde Day. The Texas church. The church where that guy came in and killed everybody. In every single case that I have covered of these, it's either known to FBI or killer is shot. And we don't really say anything about some of the previous interactions with that person and the level of COVID up that usually ends up happening. Remember Uvalde? Right? I mean, the Texas governor, the day after is like, oh, it was heroic. And they responded perfectly. When you could look at the timeline and you're like, what the hell is going on here? They didn't go on for. Go in for two hours or something. I just. I'm very sketched out by this entire thing, especially in the context. I mean, it's kind of like 911 if you think about it. The official narrative was they hate us for our freedoms and that's why it all happened. That's why we need this massive crackdown and we have to go to war in Iraq and all of this. And oh, the Saudi pages. Don't worry about it. They're still. Still some weird details. Yeah, I mean, you know in the 911 Commission Report, right, Where they claim that they found the passport of one of the hijackers on the ground? I don't know. All right. I'm just saying that's. Everything else burns up in jet fuel, the passport falls on the ground. Okay, maybe.
- [49:29]
Krystal Ball
To be honest with you, to me, the thing that is most persuasive to me that these text messages are real and genuine is actually that they are so stilted and weird.
- [49:38]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, right.
- [49:38]
Krystal Ball
That it's like, you're right.
- [49:39]
Saagar Enjeti
That's often.
- [49:41]
Krystal Ball
Surely whoever was crafting these would do a better job than this. And so I actually, like, you know, come back around full. So, like, they're so weird and so strangely worded and so convenient. Like, it couldn't possibly be that they would be this clumsy if they were actually formulating some fake dialogue. But like you said, I think it's fair for people to look at this investigation, to look at who's at the head of the FBI, to look at, you know, the degrading of institutional trust over. Over years and decades. If we go back to the Kennedy assassination and say, listen, maybe, but you're gonna have to bring me some more of it, I'm gonna need to be more persuaded than this strange text message conversation.
- [50:26]
Saagar Enjeti
Ultimately, I completely agree. By the way, it's not just right wingers who are all saying, oh, no.
- [50:31]
Krystal Ball
It'S across the board. This is very unifying.
- [50:34]
Saagar Enjeti
I think it should be. It's weird. It's weird.
- [50:38]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. We had. I think we had Brooklyn dad defiant as an example here.
- [50:42]
Saagar Enjeti
Who is that, by the way?
- [50:43]
Krystal Ball
Oh, you don't know? This guy is a resistance. He's a resistance icon.
- [50:47]
Saagar Enjeti
I'm mostly shocked.
- [50:48]
Krystal Ball
You know, he hated Bernie.
- [50:49]
Saagar Enjeti
I've muted most of these folks.
- [50:51]
Krystal Ball
Die hard lib. Okay, I don't believe these text messages were written by Tyler Robinson for a second. I didn't know him personally. I know that no 22 year old writes text messages like this. This feels like that Steve Buscemi skateboard meme. How do you do, fellow kids? So, yeah, it is truly a bipartisan affair. I mean, obviously liberals don't have any sort of faith in this FBI. There's been a real sort of like, conspiracy alignment into the right where some of the conspiratorial, like, crunchy hippie, 911 truther types were part of the RFK coalition and are now in the MAGA base as well. And so. So you already have that impulse there. And then you have cash having just absolutely torched any credibility that he had with his Epstein filing. And then you're asking people to accept things that seem strange where they still have questions. And it's good luck making that sell.
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