9/18/25: Trump Corrupt Crypto Deal, Kimmel Canceled After Trump Threats, Israel Mask Off On Gaza

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar: Episode Summary

Episode Title: 9/18/25: Trump Corrupt Crypto Deal, Kimmel Canceled After Trump Threats, Israel Mask Off On Gaza
Release Date: September 18, 2025
Hosts: Krystal Ball & Saagar Enjeti
Guest: Robert Malley (former US negotiator, Middle East expert)

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Episode Overview

This explosive episode of "Breaking Points" investigates three major stories shaping the current political and media landscape:

1. Trump’s Corrupt Crypto Deals: An exposé on how former President Trump’s network is linked to massive, allegedly corrupt crypto investments in coordination with foreign sovereign wealth, giving rise to profound national security concerns.
2. Jimmy Kimmel’s Cancellation: The latest instance of media censorship as Kimmel’s show is pulled following direct threats and government pressure stemming from his comments regarding Charlie Kirk’s assassination, with a sharp critique of the role of government in compelling the move.
3. Israel “Mask Off” in Gaza: A chilling discussion with guest Robert Malley about the failures of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, Israeli policy in Gaza, US complicity, and shifting US public opinion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump Corrupt Crypto Deal (02:35–12:23)

Background

• Krystal details a New York Times investigation revealing a complex deal: The UAE’s Sheikh Tanun invested $2B in World Liberty Financial, a crypto startup tied to both the Witkoff and Trump families.
• Two weeks later, the Trump White House approved the UAE’s access to advanced AI chips, stirring national security concerns over potential technology transfer to China.

Major Revelations

• Quid Pro Quo Dynamics: The overlap in deals and personnel (David Sacks, UAE executives working for both entities) suggests decisions benefitted personal and foreign interests rather than US policy.
• Trump’s Net Worth: Krystal questions how Trump’s wealth has ballooned through office, linking it directly to such crypto schemes.

Krystal (06:00):
"This is just, I mean, it's like world historic, out in the open, brazen corruption and it's insane."

• Sagar underscores the “appearance of corruption” and identifies the same actors (Witkoff, Kushner, Mnuchin) playing recurring roles, with the UAE and Saudi money pouring into their ventures.
• Trump’s casual attitude—in a clip with an Australian journalist—underscores the lack of transparency:

Trump, via Sagar (08:54):
"Well, I'm really not. My kids are running the business. I'm here. You know what the activity. Where are you from?"
Krystal: "The Australian Broadcasting Corporation."
Trump: "Paul Corn and the Australians. You're hurting Australia, right? In my opinion, you are hurting Australia... Your leader is coming over to see me very soon. I'm going to tell them about you."

Takeaway

• This segment paints a picture of unprecedented, almost cartoonish corruption and expresses urgent concern about national security, transparency, and the use of crypto as a modern vessel for international bribery.

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2. Jimmy Kimmel Canceled After Trump Threats (14:44–44:38)

What Happened

• Kimmel’s Remarks (15:48–16:45): Played in full—seen as a clumsy attack on MAGA and the framing of Charlie Kirk’s assassin.
• Government & FCC Pressure: ABC/Disney responded to explicit public threats by FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr ("We can do this the easy way or the hard way") regarding Kimmel, with the timing suggesting direct government compulsion over business decision.

Sagar (18:55):
"Okay, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. And it is almost moments literally after that interview aired that ABC announced that it would indefinitely pull the Jimmy Kimmel show."

• Context & Consequences: Pressure came as affiliates (notably Nexstar) needed FCC approval for mergers—a major lever for government coercion.

Memorable Quotes

Krystal (22:26):
"The timeline is Jimmy makes his comments. There is, you know, a firestorm online...Brendan Carr comes out and says, we can do this the easy way or the hard way...Nexstar is looking to get their merger approved...and lo and behold, they come out and say, we are gonna do what you would like, Commissioner."

Sagar (28:05):
"I was thinking back, remember...Bill Maher, who I’m not a fan of...was immediately canceled off the air almost exactly, what, some 24 years to the day that happened on September 17, 2001...That is literally the only precedent I can think of for something like this."

• Hypocrisy and Media Vulnerability: They highlight how supposed free speech defenders (like Carr or the previous administration on "Twitter Files" censorship) are now leading the charge on heavy-handed censorship, pointing out that any media—mainstream or independent—is ultimately defenseless against coordinated political and governmental assault.

Krystal (30:58):
"The courts aren't going to save you...So many of these news organizations have already been...in the hands of Trump allies. We're talking about CBS, likely in the future, CNN..."

• Sinclair’s Escalation: Sinclair not only suspends Kimmel but calls for a donation to Charlie Kirk’s family and airs a special instead—a drastic self-censorship and public humiliation of dissent.

Takeaway

• The hosts issue a dire warning: intimidation campaigns, regulatory pressure, and consolidation of media in pro-Trump hands is producing a chilling effect. They liken the current moment to post-9/11 media crackdowns, but argue this is even more direct and aggressive.

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3. Israel “Mask Off” On Gaza | Interview with Robert Malley (47:04–59:28)

Context

• Krystal introduces Robert Malley, former Clinton/Obama/Biden administration Middle East negotiator, discussing his new book and the collapse of the peace process.

Insights

• Why the Oslo Process Failed:
  • Both sides were operating with fundamentally divergent goals (Palestinian self-determination vs. Israeli security).
  • The US, intending to be a neutral party, repeatedly placed its thumb on the scale for Israel, perpetuating the conflict.

Malley (49:56):
"Camp David itself was based on a hoax, which is the fundamental misunderstanding... of what they thought the Oslo process was about. For the Palestinians, they thought this was about self determination, justice, redemption. And for Israelis, this was about absolute security..."

• Current US Policy:
  Malley argues both Biden and Trump have laid the ground for Israel’s current unchecked assault on Gaza. The Trump administration escalates and normalizes policies such as weaponizing food and ignoring war crimes, but Biden's inaction and rhetorical criticism only paved the way.

Malley (52:29):
"What President Trump is doing so far has been giving a carte blanche and enabling Israel basically to do whatever it wishes. I don't think that can make the Biden administration look much better..."

• End of the Two-State Solution:
  Malley sees the decades-long US mantra as a hollow shibboleth. Real change would require the US to stop enabling Israel and allow actual international accountability.

• US Public Opinion:
  Dramatic generational shift—young Americans, including many young Republicans, no longer support unconditional military aid to Israel.

Malley (57:05):
"For today’s generation and next generation of kids... it’s the war in Gaza... that's going to give rise to a generation... whose only memory is going to be of what happened in Gaza, who have nothing to lose because they've lost everything..."

Takeaway

• The Israel-Gaza conflict, and the ongoing US complicity, is sowing the seeds for a generational crisis. Malley calls for immediate action to “end the carnage in Gaza” and warns of blowback for US interests if policies do not change.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (w/Timestamps)

• On Trump’s Corruption:

  "This is just, I mean, it's like world historic, out in the open, brazen corruption and it's insane." — Krystal Ball [06:00]

• On Kimmel & Media Pressure:

  "We can do this the easy way or the hard way..." — FCC Commissioner referenced by Sagar [18:55]
  "It's a dark moment...so many corporations just completely capitulating..." — Krystal Ball [23:30]

• Comparisons to Past Media Crackdowns:

  "That is literally the only precedent I can think of for something like this. That is not where I want to be again." — Sagar Enjeti [28:59]

• On Failures of the Peace Process:

  "Camp David itself was based on a hoax..." — Robert Malley [49:56]
  "What President Trump is doing so far has been giving a carte blanche and enabling Israel basically to do whatever it wishes." — Robert Malley [52:29]

• On US Public Opinion’s Potential:

  "It's the war in Gaza...that's going to give rise to a generation...whose only memory is going to be of what happened in Gaza." — Robert Malley [57:05]

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Episode Structure & Timestamps

• Trump Corrupt Crypto Deal: [02:35–12:23]
• Kimmel Canceled After Trump Threats: [14:44–44:38]
• Interview—Robert Malley (Israel/Gaza/US Policy): [47:04–59:28]

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Tone & Style

The episode brims with urgency, anger, and dark humor. Both hosts are unflinching in their anti-establishment perspective—direct, at times sardonic, fiercely critical of corruption, censorship, and abuses of power across political lines. Malley brings a somber, reflective tone, grounded in the facts and history of the Middle East conflict.

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Conclusion

This episode of "Breaking Points" offers a stark warning about American political corruption, the crumbling of media independence under explicit government intimidation, and the continuation of US-enabled atrocities abroad. Through deep dives and urgent analysis, it argues that old norms are dead—and unless there is dramatic public pushback, the road ahead will be even darker for dissenters at home and victims of US policy abroad.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media. And we hope to see [e-mail].

[Krystal Ball]

So this is an extraordinary development that I wanted, really wanted to make sure to get in the show, even though there's so much going on. The New York Times did an investigation into this deal that was cut. We can put this up on the screen involving Steve Witkoff here. Keep this up for a second. So the headline here is Anatomy of two giant deals. The UAE got chips and the Trump team got crypto riches. So it all sort of comes back to this Sheikh Tanun, an Emirati royal who's in charge of their sovereign wealth fund. So at the same time that he was investing $2 billion in World Liberty Financial, which is the crypto company that's owned by the Wyckoff and the Trump families, at the same time, the White House decided to give the UAE something they have sought for years, which is access to the most sophisticated chips that they're looking for for AI. David Sachs, also involved in brokering this deal. Sachs being Trump's AI and crypto czar. So, you know, he doesn't have a direct stake in, like World Liberty Financial, but he has a stake in this industry more broadly and stands to potentially benefit from this deal as well. So let me read you some of the details here, and forgive me for going long, but I want to make sure people why, how this went down and what the New York Times is asserting, so they say. In May, Steve Wyckoff's son Zach announced the first of the deals at a conference in Dubai. One of Sheikh Tanun's investment firms would deposit $2 billion into World Liberty Financial, a cryptocurrency startup founded by the Witkoffs and the Trumps. Two weeks later, the White House agreed to allow the UAE access to hundreds of thousands of the world's most advanced and scarce computer chips, a crucial tool in the high stakes race to dominate artificial intelligence. Many of the chip would go to G42, that is a sprawling tech firm controlled by that same Sheikh. Despite national security concerns, the chips could be shared with China. Those negotiations involve another key White House official with ties to the tech industry in the Middle East. That would be David Sacks. So they have a quick summary here. They say, okay, so number one, Steve Witkoff advocated to give the Emiratzis access to those chips at the same time that they were landing that crypto investment. Number two, they Sachs being a key figure in the chip negotiations, raising alarm even from some Trump administration officials who believed it was improper for a working venture capitalist to help broker these deals that could benefit his industry. Number three, a senior executive based in the uae worked simultaneously for World Liberty and for the Sheikhs company G42, creating a direct link between those two companies while the Emiratis were pushing to gain this access to the AI chips. And finally, the some Trump administration officials who were trying to limit that chip steal were fired after Laura Loomer jumped in and said, these people are undermining you and they need to be pushed out. So listen, even putting aside whether you think they should have accessed these chips or not have access to the chips or whatever, people deserve to feel like foreign policy, especially significant national security decisions, are being made on behalf of the country and not in the interest of Trump and his shady crypto deals. His net worth has exploded during this presidency. Exploded. I saw a figure that, you know, it's hard to tell exactly, but the bulk of his net worth has now been acquired since he regained the presidency. And a lot of it, Sagar comes back to these crypto investments. I mean, they are such a clear cut vessel for the most brazen corruption you can possibly imagine. And then when you loop in Steve Witkoff, who has been at the center of deals with trying to negotiate with Israel and Hamas, with Ukraine, with Iran, I'm sure there are many more instances that it could go on and on. And he also is involved in the crypto stuff. This is just, I mean, it's like world historic, out in the open, brazen corruption and it's insane.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, especially on the Trump side, because I knew David a little bit before he was in the White House. David is basically a libertarian on these issues. He has a tweet about why Nvidia and all of those people should be allowed to sell into China. This is like consistent with his worldview. What I think is very egregious is the Wyckoff deal where you have the UAE Invest, remember also, it's really not just Wyckoff, it's Jared Kushner. And it's all these other people too. Steve Mnuchin, his former secretary, the Saudis, the uae. All these other people have pumped money into their firms specifically for this to also then get more beneficial deals. What's crazy is that with a World Liberty Financial deal involves the Trump family and directly is linked to their overall. So that's the question. I mean, even they talk about Laura Loomer. One of the people that I believe that was after here was Dave, was David Fyith. If you don't know what fife the last name is here in Washington. It's a scare the shit out of you. It's by Douglas Feith. I believe that's David's father, who was one of the chief architects of the war in Iraq. So, yeah, I'm not crying any tears here. I'm not really sure why he's in the NSC in the first place.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I think he was in the first Trump administration. He's been a China hawk. I mean, back when that was like a hallmark of.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Trumpianism. Now that's been sort of, you know, that's. That's done. That's over. So.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, yeah. In the first term, as you said, under China. So look, we could debate that. I don't think anyone. It's like the Bush family, you know, they shouldn't be in politics anymore. But the question always comes back to the appearance of corruption. And that's where Trump himself has just opened the door to a historic degree, one to which with these crypto deals in particular, like, every once in a while we, we check in and it's just shocking. Like in his very first week in office, I remember, you know, they asked him about his net worth and the reporter was like, I believe that you're worth several billion dollars more today. And he's like, oh, really? That's great news. Well, this time he bristled at a new question about it and in fact, threatened because the journalist was Australian, to report that reporter to the Australian government. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

A president in office should be engaged in so much business activity.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, I'm really not. My kids are running the business. I'm here. You know what the activity. Where are you from?

[Krystal Ball]

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Paul Corn and the Australians. You're hurting Australia, right? In my opinion, you are hurting Australia.

[Krystal Ball]

Very much right now.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And they want to get along with me. You know, your, your, your leader is coming over to see me very soon. I'm going to tell them about you. You said a very bad tone. Go ahead, John. You can set a nicer deal. Quiet, quiet. And I will be. What did he say? I will be reporting you to the. You are hurting Australia very much right now. I will tell this.

[Krystal Ball]

Tell them what?

[Sagar Enjeti]

You will tell about this to your leader. He goes, excuse me. And he says, be quiet. So that's scary, man. By the way, they don't have free speech in Australia, as we all saw during COVID so good luck.

[Krystal Ball]

We don't have free speech here, apparently. That'll be a segue into the next segment. But, I mean, yeah, he's. Listen, we don't know the half. We don't know the half. I mean, we don't know who's funneling money into the crypto. This is the equivalent of. In the first administration, there was the Trump Hotel. Everybody knew if you wanted to get in, in with good with Trump, like, if you're the Saudi delegation, you're gonna come, you're gonna stay in a big block of rooms, you're gonna spend lots of money at the Trump Hotel. Okay, that was terrible. That was brazen. Corruption on its face as well.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

That does not hold a candle to what we're talking about here. Billions of dollars, that's what we're talking about here, in order to secure your chips or get your goodies, whatever it is. And it's, you know, this one has been revealed, but there is so much more under the surface. You recall he had that contest of the biggest crypto investors would get to have dinner with him and be able to bend his ear about whatever it is. And since he has taken such a heavy hand and was willing to punish you if you get crosswise with him, he'll let your deals go through if you bring your gold bar to proffer to him in the Oval Office and pay the proper homage. And I was thinking about. We never, I think, even covered that. They had that tech dinner, and Zuckerberg was there, and he got asked this question of like, oh, well, how much are you investing in the U.S. and he was like, oh, $500 billion or whatever. And then you hear him on a hot mic, like, to Trump, oh, I didn't know how much you wanted me to say. Like, they are all just doing whatever they can to kiss the ring of the king and get in good with him. And so in that kind of environment, what, you think these corporate chieftains and heads of foreign heads of state, you think they have any qualms or scruples about just paying off Trump? Of course not. Of course they don't. So it's no wonder that his net worth has skyrocketed primarily because of this crypto coin, which obviously, you know, crypto, in my opinion, is just like a meaningless pyramid scheme. But if you can get people to just pump in money, pumping money, pumping money, he's going to make out like a bandit and sell our country down the river for his own wealth and riches.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's. It's pretty scary, especially here. And, you know, there's only a few people actually really digging into it because this, this New York Times thing took a lot of time. I do want to shout out Coffeezilla. He does a lot of good job about like looking at, there's this more recent case, I don't know if you saw this, where there was a major donation given to Trump and then somebody hired Pam Bondi's brother as their attorney and they just got a dismissal, you know, in the case against them. Yep, that's, that's apparently how it all works now. It's sickening.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And he's suing the New York Times did this report. He's suing the New York Times as well over, you know, separate issues like and this again, this will transition us to our, our next block here about Jimmy Kimmel ultimately getting canceled.

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[Krystal Ball]

Weekend with the MAGA gang.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Desperately trying to characterize this kid who.

[Krystal Ball]

Murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Can to score political points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half staff, which got some criticism.

[Krystal Ball]

But on a human level, you can see how hard the President is taking this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask, sir, personally, how are you holding up over the last day and a half, sir?

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[Sagar Enjeti]

And by the way, right there you see all the trucks, They've just started construction of the new ballroom for the White House, which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about 150 years. And it's going to be a beautiful. Yes, he's at the fourth stage of grief. Construction, demolition, construction.

[Krystal Ball]

This is not how an adult grieves the murder of someone he called a friend.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is how a four year old mourns a goldfish. Okay, okay. So that was the segment what everybody in particular was very upset with him over was he said MAGA tried desperately to convince people that the shooter was not one of them. I mean, obviously, given what we know about the text messages and some of the potential motivation, or at the very least does not appear as if Tyler Robinson was, quote, one of them. So, yeah. Does Jimmy look stupid for that comment? Yes. Are you allowed to be stupid in this country? Yes. Are you allowed to be wrong in this country? Presumably, yes. This ignited a massive witch hunt online which led to pressure in several different areas. And that's why I wanna be careful about how I describe, first and foremost was on the affiliates of ABC which air Jimmy Kimmel show. Now, there was some indication prior to the comments of the FCC commissioner Brendan Carr about ABC and about Jimmy Kimmel that they were going in that direction. So that was some genuine business pressure where people who were ABC affiliates who air Kimmel's show were upset with what he said. They have markets in conservative areas and they said, hey Disney, we may be pulling this. But that did not lead to the Disney actual decision. What led to the decision was an extraordinary comment here by the FCC commissioner who appeared right before the news broke actually on Benny Johnson's show and laid it out very specifically, quote, we can do this the easy way or the hard way about both. Nexstar, which is a company which is ABC affiliates and airs much of Kimmel and on ABC and Disney. Here is what the FCC commissioner Brendan Carr had to say. D3 Guys, let's play it. Frankly, when you see stuff like this, I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct to take action, frankly, on Kimmel, or there's going to be additional work for the fcc. Again, there's actions that we can take on licensed broadcasters. And frankly, I think that it's really sort of past time that a lot of these licensed broadcasters themselves push back on Comcast and Disney and say, listen, we are going to preempt. We are not going to run Kimmel anymore until you straighten this out. Because we, we licensed broadcaster, are running the possibility of fines or license revocations from the FCC if we continue to run content that ends up being a pattern of news distortions. Okay, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. And it is almost moments literally after that interview aired that ABC announced that it would indefinitely pull the Jimmy Kimmel show. So we've shown you the comments, we've shown you the FCC commissioner and I've also contextualized for all of you that there was some genuine business reaction from ABC affiliates. Now, there are various different definitions and fights that are all happening here. And it's a question about whether this was a government compelled action to censor Jimmy Kimmel. I think it is unambiguous, given what the FCC commissioner Brendan Carr said, that it is a textbook definition of job owning for people who don't know what that term is. It kind of originated in the 1960s and the idea is that public pressure and statements from the government itself are used as a matter to compel private business action. In this case, the fcc, commissioner, Brennan Carr, has tremendous power not only over ABC and Disney, but also over this nexstar organization. So for context, last month, the nexstar Media Group, which is the largest owner of these local TV stations in the US Announced its intention to purchase its largest rival, called Tegna. This was a $6.2 billion acquisition. Nexstar needs the approval of the FCC, and it needs the FCC to specifically lift its own rules of a 39% cap on the number of households one company is permitted to reach through a television station ownership. FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr in May suggested his mind was open to repealing this limit. However, it, of course, leads to his own discretion.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So nexstar was already under pressure, it appears, and had to give something to the fcc, and this was a very easy way to do that, which ultimately led to Jimmy Kimmel being canceled there by ABC News. Or, sorry, by ABC and Disney, which is. I mean, look, guys, this is one of the largest media conglomerates in the world. All right, let's be very clear. And the fact is, is that they caved to this specifically, I believe, because of the FCC's statements.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just don't see personally how unless all the vast majority of the affiliates came out and said, we won't air it, that then they would do it. And by the way, if that's how it happened, it's a very different story, because that's a business decision. Look, on Jimmy Kimmel, I haven't watched his show in probably. I don't know. The last time he went viral for me is when I was in college on those Matt Damon videos. You know, I mean, that was a long, long time ago. Or the man show. Like that is the only reference I have for Jimmy Kimmel when he was dating, like, Sarah Silverman. That's it. That's all I got. I know nothing else about the guy. I'm pretty sure his ratings were a disaster. In a decade, there's almost certainly he would not be on the air, but it is very obvious that this is a result of FCC pressuring, jawboning, et cetera, a textbook definition of the case. And the fact is, is, you know, a lot of people are trying to cope and be like, oh, it was a business decision. I'm like, well, then they should have let it play out to see if it was actually a business decision. It's like, no, it wasn't a Business decision. It was clearly as a result of government pressure. So that's the full context that everybody needs for this story. And I believe that if you put all those facts together, it's an inescapable conclusion. What happened here?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I mean, the timeline is Jimmy makes his comments. There is, you know, a firestorm online of backlash about his comments. Brendan Carr comes out and says, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Calls directly on affiliate owners like nexstar to pull the program. Nexstar is looking to get their merger approved and requires the approval of Brennan Carr. And lo and behold, they come out and say, we are gonna do what you would like, Commissioner. We are gonna pull that program. And abc, under pressure, decides, and by the way, how weak of them. But this is where we are. How many media organizations have we seen cave at this point to Trump, be in threats? Is the broader context, too, is that this is like not even close to the first attack on the First Amendment, the first attempt to quash any sort of dissent with regards to the media. Ryan and Emily were just covering yesterday, the mass consolidation of everybody, CBS, possibly CNN, TikTok. Already Twitter is owned by a Trump ally under the hands of direct Trump allies, who also happen to be extremely pro Zionist and anti Palestine. So you have broader context, too, that you have to consider. We also have. We can put D6B up on the screen in case you had any question about where this decision making came from. One ABC insider told Rolling Stone, quote, they were pissing themselves all day. In the hours leading up to the decision to pull Kimmel, two sources familiar say senior execs at abc, Disney and affiliates convened emergency meetings to figure out how to minimize the damage. Multiple executives felt that Kimmel had not actually said anything over the line, the two sources say. But the threat of Trump administration retaliation loomed. So it wasn't a grassroots cancellation effort. And, oh, his ratings are bad anyway, so let's just go ahead and pull the plug. They explicitly say the executives had no issue with what he said and they were worried about the Trumpian administration retaliation threats. When you have Brennan Carr out there saying, we can do this the easy way or the hard way, it just becomes completely undeniable what is going on here. And, guys, for me, you know, saga can speak for himself. It's a dark moment. It's a dark moment. Like I said, it's not like it's. This is the first thing I mentioned before the lawsuit against the New York Times, which also just happened, I believe, this week. But when you have so many corporations just completely capitulating when you have these types of brazen, illegal threats being made out in the open over. I mean, yeah, it was a dumb comment. I mean, this is like not remotely even close to anything that's, like, wildly offensive or over the line. Like, it's not even borderline to me. It's crazy. And probably the part Trump liked the least was the legitimate joke about, like, this guy is supposed to be so close to. You just died and you can't even spend two sentences talking about him before you're on your construction project. In addition, Trump had threatened Kimmel before and predicted that he would be, quote, the next to go. He can put D2 up on the screen. Everybody is saying I was solely responsible for the firing of Stephen Colbert from CBS Late Night. That is not true. The reason he was fired is a pure lack of talent. Fact. This deficiency was costing CBS $50 million a year in losses. It was only getting worse. Next up will be an even less talented Jimmy Kimmel. And then a weak and very insecure Jimmy Fallon. The only real question is, who will go first? Showbiz and television, very simple business. If you get ratings, you can say or do anything. If you don't, you'll always become a victim. Colbert became victim to himself. The other two will follow. So he says there. He predicts that next up will be Jimmy Kimmel. And then, lo and behold, they find a pretext to put pressure on Kimmel, to put pressure on ABC and to cause his removal as well. And I have no doubt that the other two remaining late night hosts are going to be next because Trump is saying that outright. He is predicting that outright. And, you know, some of the Cope saga that I've seen is like, okay, well, these are mainstream institutions. They suck anyway. You know, people are moving away from them anyway. The ratings suck, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, guys, if you think if, like, Disney can't stand up to the Trump administration, what you think we have a chance? Like, any independent media outlet, you're dead. I mean, they quash us like a bug in a heartbeat the minute that they decide to. We know Charlie Kirk, who is as close aligned with. Was as close aligned with the Trump administration as you could possibly be. Even he was coming under pressure because he had some qualms about the Iran strikes and was not 100 million percent toeing the line on Israel, like, just even allowing some other voices in. He was under tremendous pressure. Like, this is a incredibly dark landscape. And the hypocrisy point Goes. I mean, I'm sick of saying it at this point, but some of the same. Brendan Carr himself was out there. You can go back and look at his Twitter timeline and his tweet after tweet after tweet about jawboning, about government censorship, about free speech, about how the government shouldn't have been in the Twitter files and how the government shouldn't have been involved, blah, blah, blah. This is so far beyond anything. And we objected to the things the Biden administration did, by the way. This is so far beyond anything that they did. It is in a completely different category. And look, there's Brennan Carr completely turning on a dime now that he has power because he knows the assignment. If he is going to stay in that position and keep his title and keep his power, he is going to operate the way Donald Trump wants him to operate. And that is what this is.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's terrifying. Honestly. It's just like we were. I was thinking back, you remember the day after Charlie was shot, we did our. Or was killed, we did our show. It was on 9 11. And in the reminder of what it was like at that time, Bill Maher, who I'm not a fan of, you know, I don't think that's a secret to anybody. He was on a show called Politically Incorrect and he said something about how actually the 911 hijackers were not cowards. Cause it actually took a lot of courage to like, fly themselves into a building. He was immediately canceled off of the air almost exactly, what, some 24 years to the day that happened on September 17, 2001. And in the very similar context, Ari Fleischer, the White House press secretary, went on the White House podium and said that people should be careful about what they say on tv. That is literally the only precedent I can think of for something like this. That is not where I want to be again.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And in fact, like you said about the hypocrisy, what makes this worse for me in particular is that, okay, so why did you come on all of. Why did you go on Glenn Greenwald's show? Why did you tweet about censorship, about jawboning and recognize the grave threats of government censorship? Like, for example, when the Biden White House is pressuring the original Twitter to cancel Alex Berenson for spreading what he, you know, for anti COVID vaccine views? I objected to that. When the FBI was asking Twitter to take down election, quote, denial posts or whatever. I thought it was outrageous. That is nothing compared to this. This is a completely other level and also I see a lot of liberals, Dan Pfeiffer, I just saw his tweet where he's like, cowardly Disney, to be honest. What are you supposed to do? Disney is a shareholder driven, has a fiduciary responsibility to make money. They are a massive media conglomerate. This is part of the reason it's always sucked that they even, that these people even own news organizations. Imagine they have Disney Shanghai. Trump could destroy them. He could literally just cancel the visas or whatever if they want to for the amusement park business or they can mess up their broadcast licenses or, I mean, I could go on forever. It's a massive conglomerate which, you know, think about Harvard University or CBS News, Paramount, everything. I mean, the totality of the government's power is such that if it's going to be used in this, the biggest people can't stand up and neither can the smallest. Nobody really has anything to say in the face of this. Like, it's not possible. That's why you were saying like you can be quashed. Yes, you actually can. Like that is the reality. And we had some binding organized in an abiding organized norms. But like the truth is, is like, does it matter if it's going to happen anyways? No, it really doesn't.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. And the courts aren't going to save you. Look at the Supreme Court. They've given him everything. He's practically everything he's wanted. You know, they'll just use the shadow docket to push it down the road, let him get away with it. So many of these news organizations have already been, and I want to emphasize the broader landscape here. You now have these massive conglomerates in the hands of Trump allies. We're talking about cbs, likely in the future. Cnn, they're trying to buy. You're going to have hbo. So John Oliver, for those of you who are John Oliver fans, and obviously he's very critical of Trump and does effectively like some investigative reporting that could be in danger. You have the TikTok sale into the hands of the same family will be involved with that. And then you have, and by the way, there's already censorship on TikTok. I was just reading this morning now that they have this like IDF sensor installed there as well. And you have Twitter already in the hands of Elon Musk. I mean this really is like textbook what Orban did in Hungary. You, you threaten and cajole the media organizations that your allies don't directly own so that they bend the knee. And then you have allies who are in charge who run these other giant conglomerates that just basically become like state media. And that's where we are. That is where we are. It's not coming. It's not a threat. Like we are here. And it's extremely dark. It is extremely dark. To your point about, well, what could they do? I mean, I just, I think, listen, I do think it's cowardly for these companies, but I also am under no illusions. Like, I'm a leftist. I understand where capital is bread is butter. They're never going to save you from fascism. You can't rely on them for that. The best you could do is have counter pressures so that they feel like, okay, well I know what the cost is for going against Trump. Is there going to be a cost for bending to Trump? Right. Is there going to be a cost of viewership? Is there going to be a cost for my workers? Is there going to be cost from a future potential Democratic administration to try to change the calculus? But you can't rely on them to be heroes here. That's never going to happen.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's why it's never going to happen. This like, oh, Disney's. I'm like, no, like here's the thing again, what are you supposed to do? Like, you want to invite massive legal pressure from the US government over one of the most regulated businesses in the world, which is network television. Be real here. I'm just, look, it's the same when we thought earlier, remember with the George Stephanopoulos case that they settled or CBS News and others where Trump would sue these media or they do it for a reason because the government can crush you. Like, that's just the reality.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

This government has demonstrated their willingness to use every facet of government to destroy you, to, you know, block your deals and you know, deny your visas or you know, just put you on blast and you know, create some news cycle around how terrible you are. Like they will do anything to get their way. And you know, this is one of the. This is such a clear cut, dire example because again, listen, like the joke, it wasn't even joke. It was stupid. Right? It was stupid.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It was also literally not true. Like it was factually incorrect about.

[Krystal Ball]

Fine, issue a correction. Like, that's the way that goes. And then at the same time, I mean, let's not also be precious about this. Like, Ted Cruz was out there lying about Melissa Hortman's killer and what their political affiliation was. I seem to recall when Mike Lee was out there joking about the guy who tried to murder Paul Pelosi and beat him over the head with a hammer and fractured his skull. So let's not be precious about the way everybody is trying to characterize these political attempted assassins and killers.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I think was Mike Lee. Did he do the. I thought he made a joke. I don't think it was about Paul Pelosi. I think it was about those Portman. Yeah, it was. He said something like nightmare on Wall Street.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, there were a ton. There were. Yeah. Thank you for the correction. I Don't want to also be wrong.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I was gonna say be canceled. I'm doing this to cover our own asses.

[Krystal Ball]

But there were plenty on the right who thought it was hilarious and made up all kinds of lies about the lunatic who came to try to kidnap Nancy Pelosi and instead beat Paul Pelosi over the head with a hammer. You can certainly go back and take a look at that. But we all know what this is about. Trump set him in his sights. He said Jimmy Kimmel is next. And the moment they had a pretext, Brennan Carr comes out, threatens them, threatens nexstar. And do we have what Sinclair has decided they're gonna do?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sinclair says that Kimmel's suspension is not enough. Calls on FCC and ABC to take additional action. Sinclair's ABC stations to air a special in remembrance of Charlie Kirk during Jimmy Kimmel's live time slot on Friday. As discussed with ABC earlier today, Sinclair decided to indefinitely preempt Jimmy Kimmel Live be today. Following these discussions, ABC has suspended production of Jimmy Kimmel Live. They go on and say that special ABC stations will air a special in remembrance of Charlie Kirk this Friday during Jim and Kimmel's live slot. The special will also air across all Sinclair stations this weekend. In addition, Sinclair is offering the special to all ABC affiliates across the country. Sinclair will not lift the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel live on our stations until formal discussions are held with ABC and their commitment to professionalism and accountability. They also called on Kimmel to issue a direct apology to the Kirk family. Furthermore, we asked Mr. Kimmel to make a meaningful personal donation to Charlie, the Kirk family and to the Turning Point usa.

[Krystal Ball]

So we're trying to compel a personal donation from Jimmy Kimmel to Turning Point USA and the Kirk family directly and airing a Charlie Kirk special in lieu of Jimmy Kimmel. Like, it's unreal.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We can put the fire's been always been one of those.

[Krystal Ball]

They are right wing. Yeah. And Next Star is too. By the way, isn't that the one that Alex Acosta is on the board of?

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, that's Newsmax, I think. Well, I need to look at the difference.

[Krystal Ball]

Nextar News Nation is owned by nexstar.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Which also owns our former employer, the Hill.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Thank God. Yes. Do you guys want to see how nice it is not to be? Imagine trying to cover this. Imagine trying to cover this while working over there. By the way, this is reality. Like, how is ABC News going to cover this shit? They're owned by Jimmy Kimmel, owned by Disney.

[Krystal Ball]

They will be quaking in their books, every one of them.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You can't say anything also.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and your company has made it clear they're not gonna stand up for you on your own.

[Sagar Enjeti]

How is CNN gonna cover it? CNN is literally about to get bought potentially. Or at least there's an all cash offer out there by the Ellison family to buy WBD Warner Brothers Discovery, which is the parent company of cnn. So what are they gonna say? Because if you say something, you're probably gonna get axed if you get bought. And then on the other channel over on Fox News. Oh yeah, Fox has no problems whatsoever, the fcc. Right. Or of course they'll get a free pass potentially under this.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, Brendan Carr went on with Sean Hannity last night to brag about all of it. I mean, they're taking credit for it. Like that's the thing is you can't delude yourself they are taking credit for it. When the news came out, Brennan Carr replied to a reporter with like a victorious emoji. I mean it's just like it's undeniable what is going on here. And they want people to know, they want media companies to know that this was them, that they did it. We can put D7 up on the screen. This is a reaction from fire. They said the government pressured ABC and ABC Cave. The timing of ABC's decision on the heels of FCC chairman's pledge the network to do this the easy way or the hard way tells the whole story. Another media outlet withered under government pressure, ensuring that the administration will continue to extort and exact retribution on broadcasters and publishers who criticize it. We cannot be a country where late night talk show hosts serve at the pleasure of the president. But until institutions grow a backbone and learn to resist government pressure, that is the country we are. So there you go and last piece here. This is just the beginning of the threatened crackdown. We can put D8 up on the screen. Trump says, I am pleased to inform our many USA Patriots. I'm designating Antifa a sick, dangerous, radical left disaster as a major terrorist organization. I'll also be strongly recommending those funding Antifa be thoroughly investigated in accordance with the highest legal standards and practices. Practices. He did something similar to this in his first term. Antifa is not actually a real thing. Like it's not like an organized, you know, an organization the way that you typically think of organizations. Anti Fascism is an ideology of opposing fascism. And then there's, you know, Antifa is associated with like a series of confrontational tactics, but it's not like a Real thing. So you know, remains to be seen what actual impact this has because he did try to do the same thing the first time. But, but as was predicted, they are using the assassination of Charlie Kirk to further crush dissent, punish their political opponents and consolidate power. That's what he does. If it wasn't this, it would be something else. But this has provided also like a very heated emotional climate in which to try to do these things. And that's where we are. This is the first clear cut action under this new. It's not new, but an escalation of the previous tactics of the Trump administration to use any sort of crisis, emergency or invented crisis or emergency to crush dissent and consolidate power. And that's where we are.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, this is literally, I mean I just looked it up. It's September 18, 2025, 24 years and one day to the day since Bill Maher was canceled on Politically Incorrect under pressure from the Bush administration.

[Krystal Ball]

And let me say too like his thing was more provocative. I don't defend him being fired, so.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Here'S what he said.

[Krystal Ball]

It was definitely more provocative than this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But here's the thing, this is what I have come to take away the worst thing that happened. I saw a really insightful tweet where when Tucker recently said something about bin Laden and somebody was like, oh, Tucker would have been the guy today who would have interviewed bin Laden after 9 11. And someone said, can you imagine how different history would have been if someone had interviewed bin Laden after 9 11. And that's really stuck with me because the fact is that the inability to discuss, to talk and to have any fulsome conversation about foreign policy or about the reasons that that happened led to the war in Iraq. It led to, you know, the disastrous 20 year experiment in Afghanistan. It destroyed, bankrupted the entire country, not to mention all of the downstream consequences and millions of lives, you know, that were killed. Here's what Bill Maher said. He said, quote, we have been cowards. Lobbing Cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away, that's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits a building. Say what you want about it, it's not cowardly. And I mean look, that is a crazy thing to say, but what is the crux of what he's trying to say is that US military adventurism has led to blowback. Right? That was the theory that was put forth by leftists and libertarians after the immediate aftermath of 9 11. And then when the Gen Z zoomers rediscovered the Bin Laden letter, they were like, wait, this wasn't just cause they, quote, hated us for our freedoms. Some of them did, okay? Some of them actually did. They were crazy. Some of them were used like in political terrorism. Ideology would use legitimate grievances to say that is why an indictment of the American people. But imagine if we'd actually had that type of conversation. And that's exactly why his cancellation and the eventual praise by the Bush administration was a tone of how things were then to come when in 2002, when we all start talking about yellow cake uranium and cheerily and we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud that we invade the country of Iraq. Like you may think I'm exaggerating. I watched all this shit happen in my entire life. The only reason I'm here is to fight against it. So to see it happen again, I don't know. It's sick.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It really is sick.

[Krystal Ball]

It really is. I think that's the best way to put it. All right, we've got a really insightful guest standing by. Just wrote a book on the failures of the attempted peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians. So let's get to that.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

We are extremely fortunate to be joined this morning by Robert Malley. He served in senior Middle east positions in the administrations of Presidents Clinton, Obama and Biden. He's President and CEO of the International Crisis Group, author of a new book, Tomorrow is Life, Death and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel, Palestine, along with his co author Hussein Aga. And he joins us now. Great to have you, sir.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Great being here.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, of course. So just talk to us a little bit about why you wanted to write this book in this moment, which really details the even failed conception of the Oslo process and, you know, the peace negotiations that you were a part of. And of course the broader context here is this book comes at a moment when, you know, the international consensus is truly formed that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza against the Palestinian people.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Right. So we started from a premise after October 7, looking at what was happening and looking at it from the Palestinian perspective, it's all a reenactment of what they've lived in the past. You know, being forced to flee their land and then forced to flee the land to which they were forced to flee, and then being struck, and then being struck in a place that they were told they needed to take refuge, dispossessed, having lost everything, everything they, they had, all their possessions, their loved ones. So this is for them a reenactment of what they lived in 1948 in other ways too, in terms of not having a natural movement that could back them feeling isolated, adrift, alone in their land. And on the Israeli side, October 7th was relived. Just listen to their vocabulary. It's the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. It's another pogrom. So even the vocabulary, the experience, the vocabulary is all things for my generation, for Hussein's generation, generation, which speaks to us from the past and which is why we entitled the book To Mars yesterday, because it is hard for anyone who's lived this, who's seen this, who's witnessed this, not to think we've been here before in the way. In how Israelis and Palestinians are living their struggle, communal existential struggle between two peoples. And in terms of the vocabulary that's being used. And so the question is, what happened? How could we have had 30 years of a peace process led by the United States, where the United States was the sole superpower, and Presidents Clinton and Bush and Obama all said this is a priority for us is to reach peace, and here we are as if nothing had happened, as if that peace process had just been, you know, a fleeting bunch of just hot air. So that's the story of this book, is that disconnect between the realities on the ground and this artificial peace process. It was designed to reach peace and did the opposite.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You know, Robert, how do you reflect on that? It's been 25 years since Camp David. You were literally there. There was a lot of hope in that moment. So how do you think back on the legitimacy of the Camp David process itself? Was it a useful exercise? What did it teach you?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Well, obviously, at a personal level, I have to reflect, as does Hussein, at the fact that we were both actors in all of these episodes and so we were guilty of the same delusions, illusions and even deceit that was part of this process. I mean, Camp David, the reason we spend some time in the book talking about it is that I've heard so many politicians and officials and former officials in the US say, well, if only the Palestinians had said yes at Camp David, we wouldn't be here. And therefore they incur responsibility. Which one level is pretty egregious to say in any event, that Palestinian people would incur the responsibility of what, as you just said, increasing number of people are calling a genocide because of something that happened 25 years ago. But as we lay out, Camp David itself was based on a hoax, which is the fundamental misunderstanding of between the two sides of what they thought the Oslo process was about. For the Palestinians, they thought this was about self determination, justice, redemption. And for Israelis thought this was about absolute security. What they cared about was not granting Palestinian rights, but achieving security. And that sort of talking past each other with the US not playing the role of really trying to mediate, but putting its thumb on the scale for one side. I think we could look back, yes, it was a missed opportunity in the sense that it failed, but we were never close. Contrary to what I may have believed at the time, there was no congruence between the visions of Israelis and Palestinians about where they were headed and what the conflict was about.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's put E3 up on the screen here and bring this to the Connect what you're saying to the modern day. We've got Bezalel Smotrich who just makes plain he describes Gaza as a potential real estate bonanza. Israel is talking with the US about how to divide it up. You know, Israel has been, was given more or less a carte blanche from the Biden administration, but I mean, truly carte blanche here with regard to the Trump administration, the number of countries they've bombed, you know, their most maximalist fringe characters getting their way in terms of, you know, as we speak, there's a ethnic cleansing going on. There's a plan in place backed by the President of the United States to complete that ethnic cleansing and, you know, in service of, I guess, his real estate ambitions here. So, you know, how do you view the US's role now as we come to this moment where, I mean, not only does peace not seem possible, just basic survival doesn't seem possible from the Palestinian perspective, first, I'd say obviously what.

[Jacob Goldstein]

You just showed, again, an echo from the past. It's not that long ago that Israelis were talking in those terms about ridding the land of all Palestinians, Greater Israel, ethnic cleansing, again on both sides you see really a reenactment of the past. But in terms of the US role, yes, what President Trump is doing so far has been giving a carte blanche and enabling Israel basically to do whatever it wishes. I don't think that can make the Biden administration look much better because frankly, what the Biden administration did was pave the way by normalizing a set of behaviors, attitudes, policies, whether it's the use of food as a weapon of war, whether it is indiscriminate targeting of Palestinians. All of that was done under the Biden administration with greater criticism, vocal rhetorical criticism on the part of the Biden administration, but essentially not doing anything that would stop it. So, yes, the Trump administration is making this significantly worse, but the ground was laid in the term that preceded it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I think that's very important to say. So, Robert, in terms of how you see the future and how the US should handle or I mean, for years, as I think you're pointing to, the two state solution was a mantra. It was a shibboleth. It's what we're doing, it's what we're working towards. The Israelis, they don't even pretend anymore that it's a pretense of something that will exist. So in that environment, what can and should the diplomatic position of the US be?

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's a great question. And having, again, as I said, been part of failed attempts and attempts that were chasing an illusion, it's hard for me to be in the position of now sort of saying, I know what to do. I do think it's an interesting thought experiment. You know, it needs to think about what the world would have been like if the US had not even tried, pretended, tried to reach peace, if it had stayed out, if it had not warped the playing field in a way that provided Israel with impunity and allowed Israel not to live through the consequences of its actions, convince the Palestinians that somehow the US was going to rectify the vast asymmetry of power between the two sides and propped up effectless Palestinian Authority, which actually was acting as a subcontractor for Israeli security and not doing a very good job at that, and elbowing out other actors and delegitimizing other forms of activism, whether it's civil disobedience, boycotts, sanctions, international justice and accountability. So the US has played in many ways a very negative role in perpetuating the status quo. So at least as a thought experiment, if the US really took a time out and wasn't involved, it'd be interesting to think of how things would evolve. Right now, I think there's only one priority. It's priority one, two, and three. It should have been those priorities under the Biden administration, which is to end the carnage that's taking place in Gaza and everything else. We could talk about the future at some point. We could talk about whatever is happening at the UN in terms of recognizing a Palestinian state that doesn't exist and won't exist. But there's only one thing that which is to stop this, which means that Israel should be put in a position where it will pay the consequence of its actions if it continues. And everything else is pure rhetoric.

[Krystal Ball]

Does US Public opinion matter in this at all? Because obviously, you know, the base of the Democratic Party, I think some 80% see it as a genocide. They are overwhelmingly appalled at what is happening. They want to cut off funds to Israel. They want to do what it takes to end the carnage. You have some Democratic politicians who are belatedly getting on board. You had Bernie Sanders yesterday in Ro Khanna and Becca Balint being the latest to come forward and say, yes, this is a genocide. We accept the international consensus, independence, by and large there as well, and even young Republicans. I mean, this is part of the questions Swirling around the pressure that was being put on Charlie Kirk in the days and weeks before he was assassinated. I wanted to play for you the this clip from Megyn Kelly, who has been very pro Israel. She's certainly pro Zionist and largely on that side, but even she is sounding the alarm about young people and their view of Israel and the way that has shifted dramatically. This is E1, guys. Let's go ahead and play this. And let's face it, Charlie was like an unofficial spokesperson for the youth of America, in particular conservative youth. And I don't know if people have checked, but they no longer support Israel. Everybody under 30 is against Israel. Charlie was 31. Everybody under 30 like they don't support Israel is what Megan Kelly is saying there. So, I mean, does this matter at all? Is it too late? Does US Public opinion move the needle in terms of what our government is ultimately going to do and how they're going to react for the future?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, it's interesting. I mean, one of the benefits of having been around for a long time is experience. The flip side is cynicism. And so I have to check my cynicism because it's been a long time that people have said maybe that the US Political system will change and it hasn't. I do think things are different now. And my current profession is to teach. And I see students and I always think to myself, these students, something is going to shape their foreign policy vision about how they view America and the role that America should play in the world. For me personally, it was the Vietnam War, through my parents who opposed it, and then the war in Iraq, which I opposed. Those were the sort of the signal milestones in my foreign policy education for today's generation and next generation of kids, those who are going to have positions of power in the future. It's the war in Gaza, American complicity, American enabling of again, what increasing number of people are calling a genocide, American support for the military operations there. And it's hypocrisy. And I think all that inevitably is going to have an impact. You just mentioned it has an impact on young Democrats. And then you mentioned something equally important, which is what's happening on some of the Republican side. You mentioned some of the people there, but someone like David Smith, I think he's one of the most articulate opponents of a view of changing American policy to be more consistent with our moral compass and at a minimum, more consistent with our interests. Because it's hard to see how siding with a country that is increasingly or signing with policies of a country that are increasingly being that isolated and it's going to give rise to a generation. I hate to say this, but it's a truth. It's the truth. A generation of Palestinians and Arabs whose only memory is going to be of what happened in Gaza, who have nothing to lose because they've lost everything. And the hatred, of course, is going to be directed at Israel. It's going to be directed at others in the world who didn't lift a finger. And of course it's going to be directed at America. So it's hard to see how we are investing in anything positive for our future. And I think that's part of why you're seeing on both the Republican and Democratic side for different reasons, and they come at it from a different point of origin and they land not exactly in the same place. But both of them are questioning why the United States has been so one sided in its approach towards this conflict for so long and how that possibly could serve national interests.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, well said, Robert. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Thanks for having me.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate it. Again, thank you all for your support. Friday show tomorrow. They'll see you then.

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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