9/19/25: Trump CHEERS Kimmel Shutdown, Late Night RESPONDS

Summary

Podcast Summary: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: Trump CHEERS Kimmel Shutdown, Late Night RESPONDS
Date: September 19, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the controversy surrounding the indefinite suspension of Jimmy Kimmel from his late-night show following pressure from the Trump administration and FCC threats. The panel — Krystal Ball, Saagar Enjeti, and guests — discuss freedom of speech, government overreach, media consolidation, and the wider implications for comedy, journalism, and American democracy. The conversation features a debate about free speech and government “jawboning,” the media industry’s vulnerabilities, reactions across the political and comedy spectrum, and some broader reflections on the state and future of media in America.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Jimmy Kimmel Suspension Scandal

[03:16–13:30]

• Context: Jimmy Kimmel, a major late-night host, is suspended indefinitely after comments linking Trump-supporting groups to the Charlie Kirk assassination.
• Trump’s Reaction: Trump publicly celebrates Kimmel's removal, calling for networks’ licenses to be revoked for "anti-Trump bias."
  • “Jimmy Kimmel was fired because he had bad ratings more than anything else... He is not a talented person. He had very bad ratings and they should have fired him a long time ago.” — Trump [05:00]
• Conflict of Interest and FCC Power: Krystal notes the “appearance of conflict of interest” and criticizes the FCC’s role:
  • “I think with Kimmel the timing is, is obviously an appearance of conflict of interest. And an appearance of conflict of interest is a conflict of interest... the FCC either should not exist or this particular power of the FCC certainly should not exist.” — Krystal Ball [05:29]
• Media Business vs. Political Pressure: Debate whether Kimmel’s low ratings and the unprofitability of late shows made the suspension a business move or a response to direct government threats.
  • “We’re too quick to say that actually these are business decisions they wanted to make but were afraid to make... Companies are usually fine to fire, you know, to make business decisions that they think are in their own interests. They don’t need the government to push them.” — Ryan Grim [07:49]
• Jawboning as Government Threat: Strong consensus that explicit threats from FCC, with ABC’s business interests (mergers, licensing) used as leverage, crosses constitutional lines.
  • “When it is directly connected to an explicit threat... That’s just gangster stuff. But the awesome power of the Federal government needs to be checked by the Constitution.” — Ryan Grim [09:05]

2. Impact on Comedy and Media Freedom

[14:58–22:17]

• Comedy Under Attack: Comedians and late-night TV are in the crosshairs, with their ability to criticize power structures now literally at risk.
  • “If you’re in comedy, that means you’re an outlaw at this point, because comedy is illegal. Once again, outlaw.” — Ryan Grim [15:51]
• Late-night Responds: Colbert and other hosts react with solidarity but largely offer familiar anti-Trump jokes. The analysis is that their bits “met the moment” only superficially, lacking true calls to action or deeper resistance.
  • “I think what they were all lacking is some sort of a call to action... there was no like, okay, that’s why...we’re going on strike... I think people are looking at them for like some sort of leadership since this is their industry.” — Asma Khalid [33:41]
• Comedic Irony: Trump’s push has inadvertently lent late-night shows a subversive edge again:
  • “What Trump is doing accidentally is making them, like, edgy and subversive... just your standard lib thing is now illegal.” — Asma Khalid [22:09]

3. Government Power, FCC, and Media Mergers

[25:01–31:52]

• Political Use of Licenses: Trump on Air Force One doubles down, stating networks cannot criticize him and retain a license.
  • “When you have a network... and all they do is hit Trump...they’re licensed. They’re not allowed to do that.” — Trump [25:01]
• FCC Leverage: The threat to pull “news exemptions” or equal-time requirements weaponizes an obsolete regulatory framework for partisan ends.
  • “If I were Democrats right now, I would like immediately be looking at ways to defang the FCC and force Republicans to defend the power of the FCC...” — Emily Jashinsky [29:00]
• Media Consolidation: Discussion of how mergers (Disney, Nexstar) become hostages in political battles, with ownership increasingly aligned with Trump-friendly or ideologically motivated actors.

4. Chilling Effects and Free Speech Martyrdom

[32:04–39:54]

• Late-night Host Solidarity: Colbert, Stewart, and others express support for Kimmel, but the conversation notes the difficulty in rallying around “corporate Dem” millionaires as free speech martyrs.
  • “Kimmel and Stephen Colbert are really awful free speech martyrs for the left in these cases because they’re at heart corporate Dems who have coasted on really lazy comedy and started driving some of these formats like into the ground unnecessarily.” — Emily Jashinsky [35:39]
• Selective Outrage: Liberals’ sudden enthusiasm for speech rights is critiqued—where were they when crackdowns occurred on Palestine protests or other dissent?
  • “I am a little struck by like a lot of liberals that I see online coming out for the first time about freedom of speech after two years of disastrous freedom of speech... when it’s like a multimillionaire, like white host of a late night show, that’s when it matters.” — Griffin Davis [36:03]
• Difference in State Action: Panel distinguishes between private cancel culture and explicit government pressure, arguing that this moment goes beyond previous Democratic overreach:
  • “Even though I wasn’t on their side there, like, I think it is fair to say this administration, what they’re doing now is genuinely different than what anything we saw under the Biden administration. I don’t think it even came close.” — Asma Khalid [39:21]

5. Dystopian Trajectories: Media, Elections, and Democracy

[46:54–54:15]

• Media Consolidation + Fear: The group sketches a dystopian future where Trump-aligned owners dominate media, executives are cowed, and staff feel “no solidarity.”
  • “If Disney can be crushed like a bug, what do you think we are? ... You send out the message, listen, you better not cross me or else there are gonna be consequences.” — Krystal Ball [48:14]
• Threats to Elections: Skepticism that, even if Democrats win future elections, those results would be accepted, given Trump’s “playbook” of dispute and denial.
  • “I don’t see what institution exists... that is capable of, like, rolling back or resisting any of this. It’s certainly not the corporations. It hasn’t been the universities, wasn’t the law firms.” — Krystal Ball [48:54]
• Doubts About Resilience: A “hopeful” (if faint) note that financial crisis or shifts in public mood could upend autocratic trajectories—but skepticism prevails.
  • “The most hopeful thing I’ve seen... is that the right is going to have its outrageous spasm of cancel culture... But it’s going to fall apart because the American people... vote on the underlying material conditions of their lives, which are rapidly deteriorating under Trump.” — Ryan Grim [45:56]

6. Broader Cultural & Political Aftershocks

[56:25–71:24]

• Selective Media Coverage: The group touches on a major police shooting with limited coverage, suggesting politically “demographically inconvenient” news is sidelined in the current politicized atmosphere.
  • “If the shooter were trans and just murdered three cops, everyone in the fucking country would know about it...” — Asma Khalid [57:50]
• Comedy and Right-Wing Voices: Tim Dillon and Barstool reactions exemplify how right-leaning comedians and media adapt — sometimes with tongue-in-cheek, sometimes with bigotry (“tribe” comment) or outright avoidance of the issue.
  • “Commissioner threatening to revoke broadcasting licenses has chilling effect on free speech. AG threatening to go after hate speech is a bad sign. When someone has a weapon, everyone will use it.” — Tim Dillon (Instagram Story) [59:26]
• Trauma in the Media Class: Acknowledgment of genuine trauma among right-wing media figures in the wake of Charlie Kirk’s killing — but the panel’s compassion doesn’t extend to Trump, whose weaponization of this event against critics is seen as opportunistic and dangerous.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On FCC Power:
  “The awesome power of the Federal government needs to be checked by the Constitution. And that’s why the FBI cannot even walk in the door and tell you anything about your monologue. Or else you understand that to be an implicit threat.” — Ryan Grim [10:16]

• On Comedy Becoming Illegal:
  “Comedy is supposed to be illegal. It’s supposed to feel illegal... The fundamental, like, identity and core of comedy is gonna continue sucking if it’s about making comedy feel legal, like you’re saying things that you’re allowed to say, which is the antithesis of the form.” — Griffin Davis [21:25]

• On Media Ownership:
  “This is Orban. This is like a speed run of Orbanism, which from my study, took longer to consolidate than, you know, this has in the second Trump administration.” — Krystal Ball [47:34]

• On the Role of Institutions:
  “It certainly hasn’t been the corporations. It hasn’t been the universities, wasn’t the law firms. Labor has already long been defenestrated long ago. They’re irrelevant to the conversation, which is sad and pathetic. The court system... the Supreme Court’s given him everything he wants anyway.” — Krystal Ball [49:04]

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 03:16–13:30 — Analysis of Kimmel’s firing, FCC threats, and business vs. political motives
• 14:58–22:17 — Comedy’s role and vulnerability, Kimmel’s joke, and broader late-night reactions
• 25:01–26:46 — Trump’s licensing threats from Air Force One
• 29:00–31:52 — FCC rules, ‘equal time’ debate, and media consolidation
• 32:04–39:54 — Late-night host responses and selective speech outrage
• 46:54–54:15 — Dystopian media scenarios and resilience of democratic institutions
• 56:25–71:24 — Selective media coverage, trauma in media, and right-wing comedian responses

---

Tone & Language

The tone is urgent, a mix of dry humor, cynicism, frustration, and wariness about the future. The roundtable frequently cuts through partisanship, with left, right, and centrist perspectives all showing deep concern with the weaponization of regulatory power and the fragility of American institutions.

---

Conclusion

Anyone listening will come away with a nuanced picture of how political, business, and regulatory pressures are converging on the media landscape—potentially to disastrous effect. The panel is skeptical that current institutional checks are up to the challenge. The episode ends with a note of anxiety and realism rather than hope, mapping the daunting road ahead for free press and open criticism in America.

Transcript

[Asma Khalid]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anime is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that cleaning easy liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o-o o.com that's o d.

[Asma Khalid]

O o.com America is changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, dc.

[Tristan Redman]

I'm Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world is and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Asma Khalid]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you.

[Tristan Redman]

Can find honest perspectives from the left.

[Krystal Ball]

And the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Asma Khalid]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you Every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media. And we hope to see [e-mail].

[Asma Khalid]

Hey, everybody. Happy Friday.

[Krystal Ball]

Happy Friday. I didn't know if you were talking to the audience rhetorically or to us, Crystal.

[Asma Khalid]

It could be either both. All of the above, you know, welcoming people in. Yes, I got us in trouble last Friday. So I'm going to try to, I'll be more demure this week.

[Griffin Davis]

We're tightening it up. We've got makeup on. We're hair makeup ready.

[Krystal Ball]

That's. Yes, yes. That was the real bummer.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna calm down and, and, and how we objectify our nation's assassins.

[Asma Khalid]

Our nation.

[Griffin Davis]

And Ryan combed his hair.

[Tristan Redman]

I did.

[Krystal Ball]

He found.

[Asma Khalid]

Looking good. Looking good, guys. There was a bunch of reaction last night on the late night shows to the firing of or indefinite suspension of Jimmy Kimmel. I guess it's not clear that he's canceled for good. So wanted to get into some of that. We got some new Trump comments. We' with regard to Israel Netanyahu directly denying that he had anything to do with Charlie Kirk's death. And some new information brought to light by Candace Owens, a new picture that she released that is allegedly of Tyler Robinson hours after the killing occurred. And he's still sort of like hanging around in the area at a Dairy Queen. I don't know, we'll probably get to that in the premium section.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, really interesting, obviously. Really interesting story.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, for sure. And shows him wearing like a combination of the outfits that he'd wear, worn previously in the photos that we've seen. And it's just, you know, I mean, whether or not the photo is real or not I think is a question in of itself. Some people speculate it could be AI. We don't have a timestamp, all of those sorts of things. But anyway, we'll, we'll bring you all of the latest with regard to that investigation.

[Griffin Davis]

Yep. Another fast food killer apparently just like luigi with the McDonald's. So we, let's start with Trump's comments here about Jimmy Kimmel. Why don't we. Your Vice President Vance said that free.

[Tristan Redman]

Speech is under attack in the uk do you agree with him? And Prime Minister, we saw dismissal of a very well known chat show host in America last night.

[Krystal Ball]

Mr. Kimmel, is free speech more under attack in Britain or America?

[Tristan Redman]

Well, Jimmy Kimmel was fired because he had bad ratings more than anything else. And he said a horrible thing about a great gentleman known as Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel is not a talented person. He had very bad ratings and they should have fired him a long time ago. So, you know, you can call that free speech or not. He was fired for lack of talent, lack of.

[Griffin Davis]

What do we make of this?

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, we haven't gotten you guys take at least on the air with regard to the, the indefinite suspension of Kimmel. So Emily, what did you make of all of these developments before I get to the present specific comments there, you.

[Krystal Ball]

Know, I probably am in the position of like disagreeing with, I'll probably be the one like odd man out throughout this conversation because I think with Kimmel the timing is, is obviously an appearance of conflict of interest. And an appearance of conflict of interest is a conflict of interest. But also my position is that the FCC either should not exist or this particular power of the FCC certainly should not exist. I actually asked Brendan Carr about that a couple of months ago about whether the law itself actually needed to be changed. And he said at the time, actually that's probably a conversation that needs to be entertained, whether the FCC should have any jurisdiction to determine what quote, public interest is. Because as long as that exists, if you're a Trump Republican and you see the FCC with this power and you see corporate media going against you for so long or going against being like fairly obviously biased in one direction for so long, then the tool gets more and more tempting to use. And the last thing on that point that I'll say is I would not have a problem with a Democratic FCC commissioner. If you see NBC News or wherever lying our way into another Iraq war saying we could do this the easy way or the hard way. This is not in the public interest that you are making up intelligence, whatever. I would never support them yanking a broadcast license. I don't think the jawboning is that like significant. I do think that the merger question is absolutely significant. The nexstar merger question is absolutely significant. But my basic point on this is that I think the corporations are opportunistically taking these dust ups as their, their opportunities. The market was catching up with Kimmel. The market was catching up with Colbert. He wasn't turning, Colbert wasn't turning a profit. I would be shocked if Kimmel wasn't losing a decent amount of money. And when these things come up, it becomes an opportunity for the networks to be like, we're, we're doing you a favor, Trump. Look what we're doing here. So that's, that's kind of my take overall. But I'm sure, we'll have other disagreements.

[Asma Khalid]

What do you think, Ryan?

[Tristan Redman]

I, I disagree basically all of that. I, I don't think we can, I don't think we have any way of knowing whether or not Colbert or any of these people are profitable. You see this claim made that they're profitable or unprofitable. The way the broadcast networks work is not that you, they make a certain amount of candy and it costs this much to make the candy and then they sell the candy for a higher price and then they have a margin there. It's like, it's not like there's so much more to that. And they're part of a giant brand and, and which involves their connection to their bigger conglomerates and the, and the cable revenue that they get and the broadcast revenue through the ad that they get. And if you, if they have even just 500,000 people who you know are huge fans of Kimmel, like that can actually make it worth it to have the Kimmel. So like there's this, we're too quick to say that this, that, that actually these are business decisions they wanted to make but they were afraid to make. Which, that, that I don't understand either. Like companies are usually fine to fire, you know, to make business decisions that they think are in there own interests. They don't need the government to push them. But I think the bigger disagreement is on the problem with the jawboning. I think jawboning by the government.

[Krystal Ball]

Especially.

[Tristan Redman]

When it is directly connected to an explicit threat. Brennan Carr of the FCC told abc, you need to take action against Jimmy Kimmel or else. That is a explicit threat of government action unless they take action in Missouri versus, you know, the Biden or whatever the case was where you didn't even have any threat. What you had was members of the government, both Trump administration's DHS and then Biden administration's DHS going to the platforms and flagging. I don't think, I don't like this post here about the vaccine or I don't like this about the lab. And the platforms are actually like, for the most part they're like, all right, we're taking that down. The reason it was a problem is not because the government said take this down or else. The fact that they are the government means that they come with awesome power, enormous power that has to be kept in check.

[Asma Khalid]

So the or else is implicit.

[Tristan Redman]

The or else is just implied. It's much worse when you straight up say or else. Like that's just gangster stuff. But the awesome power of the Federal government needs to be checked by the Constitution. And that's why the FBI cannot even walk in the door and tell you anything about your monologue. Or else you understand that to be an implicit threat. Big fat beefy Italian guy comes in.

[Krystal Ball]

It's like when Taibi got in IRS on his door after the Twitter files, right?

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah. Hey, just knocking on the door here. Just want to make sure that all your paperwork is in order. Like they didn't even have to say, back off of the Twitter files or else you will get audited. That would be horrifying if they said, back off the Twitter files or else you will get audited. How is this any different? Also, the entire center left thought that the framing of the Twitter files was, was misinformation. It was poorly constructed and was cherry picked. So should the FCC or the IRS or the FBI have said, you know what? We didn't like the framing of the way the Twitter files came out. We thought this was wrong. So now you're going to suffer, you're going to get punished. It's the exact same thing. Because the conservative argument is that what Kimmel said was misinformation and therefore the threats are justified. In fact, if you look at exactly what he said, he said, MAGA folks are desperately trying to find ways to make it so that this is not one of their guys. Now to me, it turned out it was not one of their guys. He said this on Monday night. It was the case that everybody from every direction was trying to make the case that this was not one of their guys. That's just what, that's, that's what they were doing. So then come in and say you have to take action against this guy or else. And then the or else is the dual mergers. There's mergers at the Disney level that are needed and then nexstar wants to mer. Nexstar is the biggest, you know, which bought Rising. Nexstar is the biggest owner of local television networks, which is trying to buy even more local television networks, which we have said for decades is consolidation that we don't want to see. So they need the law changed, basically they need an FCC rule changed so that they can buy more local television channels and which are so lucrative. Why? Because of super PAC and political ads. Like that's the main revenue source. That's what, that's the only reason local television channels are so lucrative. And nexstar as we know, because Emily and I worked for them for like five minutes. They're like, they're a Trump aligned freelance. Yeah, we met their leadership, they're Trump aligned. And so then they operated like they operated on the, on the same team and helped effectuate this entire thing.

[Asma Khalid]

And they also, by the way, Brendan Carr in his comments, I mean directly name checked like, hey, these, you know, cable affiliate owners, they need to be looking into this. So he says that and threatens ABC next thing Next Star says, okay, no problem, we're going to, we're going to preempt Kimmel. And then, and according to the Rolling Stone reporting, the executives who'd been meeting and who'd been like, you know, shitting themselves over this, they did not think what Kimmel said was over the line, nor do, I mean, I think what Kimmel said ended up being obviously incorrect, but it was not like that crazy or wild or incense, like insanely out of bounds thing to say. In any case, the executives didn't have a real problem with what he said, but they explicitly felt that the pressure from the Trump administration was the reason why they had to act. And then on top of all of that, if you had any doubt in mind, then you have Brennan Carr go out and say, hey, maybe the View should be next. You have Trump come out and say effectively like, you know anything, you shouldn't be allowed to criticize me or else your license should be revoked. So if, if there was any doubt whatsoever about the, the reasoning for the decision making of the ABC and Disney executive, it should all be put to bed by the chain of events, their own internal deliberations and then the government basically going out and bragging about the power that they wield in their ability to coerce news executives to do whatever the hell they want.

[Krystal Ball]

Griffin, we should get you in on this because comedy's your space. One thing to that point, I don't, I wonder how, because the Wall Street Journal was reporting after it happened that Kimmel, they expect Kimmel to be back in a couple of days. And I actually am curious if he will be back by like Monday. I don't know. I agree with one thing Krystal said on the nature of the line. Like the one liner by Kimmel standards was relatively mild. He said he said some during COVID He said some crazy stuff like he's, he's, he's been out there. And my thing with Kimmel, I don't know what you guys think. It's sort of like my thing with Colbert as a big, like Griffin, we've talked about this like Strangers with Candy era Colbert fan. It just feels like a lot of it feels lazy. But anyway, that's beside the point.

[Tristan Redman]

And one other point I think what people were really upset about. And then Griffin, who's. If you're in comedy, that means you're an outlaw at this point, because comedy is illegal. Once again, outlaw. That the. So there were. There was two pieces of the joke. The first part is not even a joke. It's like Mag is trying to. Out there, trying to score political points on this and. And say that it's not their guy. I don't even actually see how that's funny. It's just a comment. But the joke was the next one, which is like, let's see how Trump is responding. And then Trump gets asked, you know, sir, like, how are you holding up personally after the loss of your friend? And Trump responds, great. We're building this. I don't know. I don't know if we have it handy, but, like, you know, we're building this ballroom. Everybody said we couldn't build the ballroom. It's going to be absolutely fantastic. It's gonna be the greatest ballroom in the history of ballrooms. And, you know, goes on and on and on about the ballroom. That's it. And so that. And that was his joke. He's like, look at this guy. What a cretin. Like, that was the joke. And I think that's what Trump was actually offended about. But Trump should have not acted like a cretin if he didn't want Jimmy Kimmel to portray him as one.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, and Trump made it pretty plain that that's what he was upset about, since he then went on to say, you're not allowed to criticize me.

[Tristan Redman]

Right?

[Griffin Davis]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Go, Griffin.

[Asma Khalid]

Go ahead, Griffin.

[Griffin Davis]

If we're to analyze this from a comedy perspective, then Kimmy, the Kimmel's guilty and should be fired. But we shouldn't analyze it from a comedy perspective because that's not. That's not right. I did have a few questions for Emily. I am curious about this idea that the FCC should be eliminated or what have you. I'm curious about that and, like, what that would mean if it's gone. But, like, also to the point about money to slightly steel man. Emily's case about views. Like, I did read last night that Jimmy Kimmel was averaging in the key demo around 129,000 views, which is about, like, one YouTube clip from us. This clip today will probably do more.

[Krystal Ball]

Is that real? He's averaging that in the demo, and.

[Griffin Davis]

That'S actually down 50% from what it was a couple months ago. So there seems to be Like a steady decline there. But like, if this were just purely, if nexstar were to try to make this look like purely a financial decision, like, oh, we're just bleeding money on this show. Why wouldn't they just make an announcement being like, hey, we're going to slowly fold this show down at the end of the year as opposed to this super knee jerk. Oh, Disney, you mean from the administration? And like, why would I. Sorry, yeah, Disney. Like, why, why wouldn't they do similar what they did with Colbert, right. Where they're like slow rolling it out. But this knee jerk reaction to it seems to be like implicitly a direction from the, from the government.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I think because they're trying to please. Like, I think they're being opportunistic. My, my honest opinion is that I think they're trying to like exactly what you say. Trump operates like a Roy Cohn trained mafioso. So I think they take these sort of dust ups as opportunities to be like, look, we're, we're, we're giving you a little here. Like, we're, we're cooperating. We, we love Trump maybe is what they're saying behind the scenes. I don't know if you guys caught Sherry Redstone obviously coming out and saying that this is, this is business. There were a bunch of anonymous sources who went to Puck and then I think the New York Post during the Colbert dust up that said it was losing around $40 million last year. I don't know. I mean, like, when you have a few anonymous sources, it's hard to obviously verify that number without the network going on the record. Those are catastrophically bad numbers for Kimball. Some of this is. Anyway, that is, we don't have to get into the market of, of late night shows just to say that. I think the networks take.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, I'll grant you to be like.

[Krystal Ball]

Hey, look, we're working with you.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah. I will grant you the show is a dud and probably is losing money, but it's just, it's just hard to disentangle it from the entire.

[Asma Khalid]

Right.

[Tristan Redman]

Network.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, and, and I just looked it up. So the numbers I'm seeing, Kimmel was averaging 220,000 viewers in the demo, which is still not great. It's a little better than 100 a couple months ago.

[Griffin Davis]

A couple of months ago he was, it was what I read.

[Asma Khalid]

Okay. Well, he, and he was ahead of Colbert and Fallon in terms of his numbers. So, you know, in terms, if you look at the, the genre, he was actually the person who was performing the best. You know? Yeah, I mean, I just. Listen, I'm. I obviously agree with Ryan, like, the business thing may be true that it's losing money, but that is not the reason he was suspended right now. Because, in fact, I think by doing it in this way, they have put themselves in a much worse position because people are very upset that they made this decision, and they have the possibility of strikes from talent. And, you know, obviously this is a giant conglomerate. There's all sorts of ways that talent and producers and actors and whatever can speak out and be upset. It's created this whole national cultural moment. Like, I don't think, as a business, this would have been the way that they would have wanted to go. Instead, they could have done what, for example, like MSNBC did at the beginning of the Trump administration. When they look around and see the writing on the wall and they basically offer up Joy Reid as tribute, they're like, okay, but you don't even have to say anything. We're gonna get rid of this lady and we're gonna sell off msnbc. Are we good now that in that way there isn't that direct. Like, you're directly threatened and under duress, you intentionally, like, cave and capitulate in a way that is undeniable and blatantly obvious.

[Griffin Davis]

And also the reason why these shows, these late night shows, like, in general, Big Picture suck, is because they are sycophantic to the Democratic Party. And now the Republicans are asking for them to be sycophantic to the Republican Party. And like, to a certain extent, comedy is supposed to be illegal. It's supposed to feel illegal. It's supposed to feel like, oh, you're not allowed to say that, but the comedian is saying that. And that's why it sucks right now when they just, you know, jerk off the Democratic Party. And it's gonna suck when they jerk off the Republican Party. And so it's like the. The fundamental, like, identity and core of comedy is gonna continue sucking. If it's about making comedy feel legal, like you're things that you're allowed to say, which is the antithesis of the form.

[Krystal Ball]

There is a baby.

[Griffin Davis]

Yeah.

[Asma Khalid]

That's kind of an interesting comment, though, Griffin, because what Trump is doing accidentally is making them, like, edgy and subversive.

[Griffin Davis]

Yes, exactly. He's bringing it.

[Asma Khalid]

You can't do. You're just like, standard lib thing is now illegal. So making it so. Because we. We all watch. I mean, I watched a bunch of the monologues from last night, which were not like particularly spectacular. But now they have this looming interest and you know, increased interest and scrutiny and edge to them simply because of what the Trump administration has, you know, has done here.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. At washablesofas.com, you'll find the Annabe sofa, which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. Starting at only $699. The stain resistant performance fabric, slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Right now you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive and when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting, all linked and talking to each other. Check out [e-mail] that's O-O-O.com America is.

[Asma Khalid]

Changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Griffin Davis]

We've got new comments here from Trump on the Air Force One about sort of his larger plans or thoughts on on TV networks in general. Let's, let's take a listen for him on Air Force One for a second. That's something that should be talked about for licensing too. When you have a network and you have evening shows and all they do is hit Trump, that's all they do. If you go back, I guess they haven't had a conservative on in years or something. Somebody said. But when you go back and take a look, all they do is in Trump, they're licensed. They're not allowed to do that.

[Asma Khalid]

They're an arm of the Democrat Party.

[Griffin Davis]

Thank you, everybody.

[Tristan Redman]

Thank you.

[Griffin Davis]

Fly safely. You know why I say that? Because I'm on the flight.

[Tristan Redman]

I want to get home.

[Griffin Davis]

Otherwise I wouldn't care he's on the flight or otherwise he wouldn't care.

[Tristan Redman]

That would be a good joke. We know. We know he's on the flight because he's standing right there. And so it kind of. He stepped on his own punchline with his own presence. He. Otherwise that's pretty funny.

[Krystal Ball]

He also keeps saying from his first post to just that like he's absolutely convinced that Kimmel has been fired. And that is not what any of the reporting suggests right now. And it wasn't what any of the reporting suggests when he fired off his True Social at 1:30 in the morning UK time. So I don't know if he knows something or if he's trying to manifest.

[Tristan Redman]

Maybe they should just not just bring him back and not announce it. And you know what would actually Trump would never notice.

[Krystal Ball]

He might not ever know. And what might solve the entire problem is if they give Trump Kimmel's late night spot and then Trump isn't president anymore.

[Tristan Redman]

Everybody wins.

[Krystal Ball]

He would love that job.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, but couldn't he do a five minute monologue or is it just the whole show? Oh, just gonna be his monologue.

[Krystal Ball]

I see. Like, could he contain himself?

[Tristan Redman]

You know, sometimes, you know, if he was not president, I would watch that. I'd make that deal.

[Asma Khalid]

Remember that time on the campaign trail, he like, they just like stood in silence and swayed to Ave Maria or something like that.

[Tristan Redman]

That was great stuff. That was amazing.

[Asma Khalid]

Some real. That's a realistic content. I don't know what you call that, but I do want to focus in on what he said there, which he specifically said. They hit Trump every night. That's not allowed. It's like literally in America you are allowed to criticize the president of the United States. That's like kind of the whole deal here. Like that's a big part of what we're all about. And as I said before, makes it plain, not only that, the Real problem he had wasn't, you know, something he said about Charlie Kirk's killer. It was about the criticism of him, which is why he had previously said, hey, Jimmy Kimmel's next had been calling for his ouster. And also why you've now got, you know, Brendan and, and he said. Who did he say is next? Jimmy Fallon or Stephen and Seth and Seth Meyer and Seth Meyer. And then, and then you have Brendan Carr coming after the View and, you know, putting them in the, in the spotlight. And the View notably, and this is, like, pretty shameful, they didn't talk about this topic yesterday on their show at all. So. And that's the point. The point isn't just to get a scalp in terms of Jimmy Kimmel. The point is to send the message out to everyone that you better watch it, you better be careful, because you step over wherever that invisible line is, you get a little bit of a, you know, online conservative backlash going, and that's it. Your companies, your corporate executives, they're not going to have your back. They are not going to have your back. You are on your own. And that mess of whether or not Kimmel comes back at some point or doesn't come back, whatever that message has been sent, and the fact that the View said nothing about this yesterday, I think shows you the chill that has already been instilled, at least in, you know, in many journalists, personalities, comedians across the board.

[Griffin Davis]

Speaking of comedians across the board. Well, go for it, Emily. While I pull this clip up, I do have a Colbert clip I want to pull up next.

[Krystal Ball]

I was just saying if I were, if I were Democrats right now, I would like immediately be looking at ways to defang the FCC and force Republicans to defend the power of the fcc, because the FCC gives what's called, like, news exemptions. Howard Stern, for example, got his quote, news exemption. So this is like, it goes back years and years. And it's been used in ways that we've become accustomed to because like many things before, we had this, like, crazy moment 10 plus years ago. I guess now in the US we didn't think about the, the tools, or we hadn't thought about the tools in this way for like 20, 30 years. And now Republicans, having watched the media, especially with Trump, but like saying, going back over the last, whatever, 30 years, the way that conservatives were covered, are saying, well, hey, there's this public interest tool in the FCC's toolkit, and that's there while all of these levers are being pulled, why not take a look at the public Interest part of it. Why not say, why not take away the quote, news exemption from some of these, these broadcasters and make it so that they do have to do equal time. Because what Trump said there, where he was like, you have to, it's not allowed to just bash Trump night after night. If they, if they have their news exemption, maybe the FCC takes that away and then says, actually it's not allowed. You have to do equal time and all of that, which like, as a model doesn't really even make sense anymore. So if I were Democrats, I would make Republicans start defending the, the New Deal fcc because that would get, I mean, I honestly think there's a pretty good case for abolishing the fcc the way that we license broadcast airwaves and all of that. But anyway, beside the point.

[Griffin Davis]

I mean, Gutfeld needs equal time.

[Krystal Ball]

Get me on that doesn't count because it's cable. But like the broadcast.

[Griffin Davis]

Gotcha. Gotcha.

[Tristan Redman]

But which most people, I don't think.

[Griffin Davis]

Distinguish a difference between like, the average person just views this as just like a freedom of speech thing without the intricacies of like, oh, that's, that's broadcast. This is cable. Like, you know, the pro.

[Tristan Redman]

The problem there is that this isn't really on the up and up. It's not as if they have a genuine concern about public interest and they're going to use the remedies existing around the public interest rule. What they're saying is we don't like what you said and we're going to connect it to this other thing, this merger that you want, that, that your parent company wants. And we're going to use the threat of blocking this merger not because we think it's anti competitive, not because we don't like the merger on the merits, but as power to get you to do what we want. So looking at the rules implies that this is being done on the up and up through the rulebook. And it's, and it's not, it's just being done with, with raw power.

[Griffin Davis]

So many people are saying, what are Jimmy Kimmel's colleagues gonna say? What is Jon Stewart, what is John Oliver gonna say? So we've got a clip here from Colbert would like to play here, see if it met the moment.

[Tristan Redman]

I'm your host Stephen Colbert, but tonight we are all Jimmy Kimmel. I, I still have a show though, right? Okay, good. Yesterday, after threats from Trump's FCC chair, ABC yanked Kimmel off the air indefinitely. That is blatant censorship and it always starts small. You know, remember like in Week One of his presidency. Gulf of America. Call it Gulf of America, sure seems harmless, but with an autocrat, you cannot give an inch. And if ABC thinks.

[Krystal Ball]

If ABC thinks.

[Griffin Davis]

This is going to satisfy the regime.

[Tristan Redman]

They are woefully naive and clearly they've.

[Griffin Davis]

Never read the children's book.

[Tristan Redman]

If you give a mouse a Kimmel.

[Krystal Ball]

And to Jimmy, just let me say.

[Tristan Redman]

I stand with you and your staff 100%. And also, you couldn't let me enjoy this for like one week.

[Griffin Davis]

All right, if you give him as a Kimmel. Ryan loved that one.

[Tristan Redman]

That's good stuff.

[Krystal Ball]

I was like, oh, there's hard.

[Griffin Davis]

There's the key demo, folks. There's the key demo.

[Asma Khalid]

Gen X enough.

[Tristan Redman]

So I think I am in the demo now. I need to start watching these late night shows.

[Griffin Davis]

So did you guys watch these late night reactions? Do, do we find that this met the moment? Because I was struck by these feeling very similar to other just Trump takedowns in terms of tone and energy. What did you guys make of it?

[Asma Khalid]

So I think what they were lacking, I mean, on the one hand I'm sympathetic because it's hard to make comedy about something that, you know, like to have a topic and be like, I'm going to make a joke about this. And yet their mandate on the show obviously is not just to do political commentary, but to make it funny. And it's a difficult thing to be able to nail sympathetic there. It's certainly not something I could pull off. I think what they were all lacking is some sort of a call to action. It's like, okay, you don't like it and you're saying, oh, this won't affect my performance. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I mean, I don't even think, like, as an individual human being, you're not even really fully equipped to assess your own ability to withstand that pressure because you don't know the way things are subtly influencing you, if that, if that makes sense. Which is why you have to. Why we've worked hard to insulate ourselves from different pressures that are. We can anticipate. But there was no like, okay, that's why we need to. That's why we need to boycott. That's why we're going on strike. That's why, you know, that's why Democrats need to break up these giant conglomerates. Like, maybe it's too much to put that on them. But I think people are looking at them for like some sort of leadership since this is their industry and these are really influential, powerful wealth people at this point. And there was none of that. It's just sort of like, you know, Republicans are hypocrites. Okay, we can see that. You know, we're not happy about what happened with Kimmel. That's obvious. And I think the other thing that's always difficult with Trump is because we've had. This is far from the first threat to the First Amendment, from this administration, even literally in this week. So when you've talked about these things before, it also becomes difficult to separate from previous concerns from this moment and to really sort of like put a pin in what makes this particular action different, more extraordinary, more troubling, darker, more sinister than previous things that we've thought about and talked about with Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, Jimmy Kimmel and Stephen Colbert are really awful free speech martyrs for the left in these cases because they're at heart corporate Dems who have coasted on really lazy comedy and started driving some of these formats like into the ground unnecessarily. Show unnecessarily. So. And it's like hard to, I think it's hard for people like rally around these.

[Griffin Davis]

I agree, Emily. And like company men. I agree, Emily. Because also it's like liberals have a lot of times turned a blind eye to other freedom of speech issues over the last two years. I mean, like, have they covered the crackdowns from both Biden and Trump on Palestine protests, freedom of speech? Like, I see so many people in la.

[Krystal Ball]

Has Colbert. Have Colbert and Kimmel talked about that? That's a really good point.

[Griffin Davis]

I mean, maybe they've like, yeah, Stuart has for sure. But I don't know. I am a little struck by like a lot of liberals that I see online coming out for the first time about freedom of speech after two years of disastrous freedom of speech. But it's like, oh, when it's like a multimillionaire, like white host of a late night show, that's when it matters. Obviously he's a more famous person. It's going to make like a bigger impact. But yeah, if you haven't been talking about freedom of speech in a lot of other areas, and let's say a lot of these were front page news stories. You like to miss Mahmoud Khalil. That's a front page story. Like, that's not like a. Sorry, I didn't turn to the third page to see that.

[Asma Khalid]

Let me defend not, you know, Colbert and these people who I haven't watched, I genuinely don't know. I don't suspect that they said anything about that. But I don't actually know for sure, but let me defend the libs a little bit here, which is to say, number one, Democrats overwhelmingly, you know, oppose what's happening in Gaza, have opposed the crackdown on, you know, on speech on campus. Like, that movement comes from the left, and, you know, it's most more leftist, but also left liberal. So there's that. The other thing I would say is, again, like, I was and Ryan was at odds with a lot of liberals in terms of their, you know, ignoring an acceptance and pushing actively cancel culture and trampling on free speech and censorship. And in all of that. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Asma Khalid]

So I wasn't on the same page with them there. However, I will say, both in terms of the substance and in terms of the state mechanisms, this is different. Right. Like with the Twitter file stuff, what the Biden administration was messaging to, you know, these social media companies about was Covid misinformation that they felt like genuinely was going to cause people to lose their lives. Right. So now we all felt like, okay, first of all, a lot of these accounts are tiny accounts. Like, it's not going to make that big of a difference. You guys have been wrong about a bunch of stuff with COVID We don't want a ministry of truth. Just by sending these messages and having these meetings, you're exerting extraordinary pressure. Pressure. But I don't want to pretend like the COVID misinformation and this, like, lame comment from Jimmy Kimmel are remotely the same, because they're not. Right. So the content is different. And then as Ryan was laying out before, the government action is different as well. So here you have an explicit threat, and it comes in the context of a Trump administration that has used every opportunity, real and imagined crises, to crush dissent, crack down, grab power, and has truly, I mean, that truly is an authoritarian threat to the country and to democracy. So I, even as I again, was not on the same page as liberals. You can go back and look at my support of the Harper's letter and coverage of the Twitter files and all.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, you guys took a lot of heat. You guys took a lot.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah. Even though I wasn't on their side there, like, I think it is fair to say this administration, what they're doing now is genuinely different than what anything we saw under the. The Biden administration. I don't think it even came close. And that's before you even talk about, like, scrubbing people's social media and, you know, for whether or not they can have a visa and deporting them without due process and you know, the massive crackdown over speech on Palestine, et cetera. So that's what I would say in defense of the libs.

[Krystal Ball]

The I think you always have to take what Trump is saying, even if he doesn't mean it literally, you have to take it seriously. Because when you have the President United States threatening broadcast licenses, and even if it's just quote, jawboning, I think you do have to take it seriously, especially when it comes with threats from the FCC and when you see compliance. So I actually think the way that Trump talks about broadcast licenses is insane.

[Asma Khalid]

And when they have a track record of weaponizing the government to punish universities, law firms, immigrants, students, anyone that they don't like, when he's coming out and issuing a, you know, statement saying, hey, we're going to make antifa, which is like, you know, an ideology, a terrorist organization, and threatening people who are just pro Palestine with being providing material support to terrorism. Like, that's the record of this administration. So it's not an idle threat. We all know that they have weaponized the entire federal government in every way that they can think of in order to coerce and crush dissent and consolidate power. So that is a very different landscape than what we've dealt with before.

[Krystal Ball]

The other thing I was to say is I do think some moves from Dems and the Biden administration, and this doesn't have to become a tit for tat thing. I do think things like the Global Engagement center, which it's hypocritical for Marco Rubio to shut it down and act like he's a champion of free speech, obviously, given what's happened with visas and other students. But in that case, the State Department was funding blacklists of conservative media outlets, and not even just conservative media outlets, but like literally Unherd found its way onto a global disinformation index that was funded by the State Department, the Equality act, which almost every Democrat supports, would have serious ramifications for free speech because of the way that it reads gender identity into sex. And the same thing was true of the way the Obama administrations and the Biden administration wielded Title nine. So it's some of that stuff I think was enormously significant in ways that it's frustrating because the Colbert, who's now a free speech martyr and Kimmel is a free speech martyr, don't give a damn about. They don't care. And some of the people who are supporting them don't care and never did. The media barely covered the Global Engagement center story like it wasn't really anything. And there are other examples that we could point to, too. I actually agree. I don't think the COVID one is apples to apples. I think it's apples to oranges. But I do think there were other ones where we. We saw both the Obama and Biden administrations weaponizing their power to go after journalists. And, you know, or not, not just journalists, but to go after speech. Actually, Ryan, the James Rising case from the Obama administration and the James Rosen case from the Obama administration are examples of that, too. But in those cases, most of the media was pretty defensive of. Of Ryzen, if I'm remembering correctly.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah. And Risen started late, Bush, and then went into Obama. And so it was this bipartisan attempt to get. He was a New York Times reporter who had exposed some of the NSA spying reporting that was then later confirmed by Edward Snowden's leaks. And they were threatening to put him in prison in order to get him to reveal his sources. And eventually Obama backed off because he was the kind of person that elites could pressure and say, you're a constitutional scholar, bro. Like, you're a law professor. Like, what are you doing? All right, fine. And so he never ended up going to prison. But, you know, Crystal and I both warned, you know, throughout the teens and early twenties that what the left was doing might be constitutional because it's private stuff. You know, you're just. You're bullying. You're. The mob is bullying some private company to fire a person or get rid of them. But that it was still erode, you know, it was still eroding of the First Amendment, that the First Amendment has a letter and it has a spirit. And while it might not have been violating the letter of it, it was violating the spirit of it. And amendments that are on the books, but that aren't respected by the cultural spirit aren't worth what they're written on. Look at the Fourth Amendment. No illegal search and seizure. Well, how's that working out for us? It's still written there, but because spiritually, we kind of abandon it, then nobody follows it anymore. And so that's why people like Glenn and Crystal and I were all saying, no, you've got to draw the line here and protect it in spirit, not just in letter, because you're not always going to be in power. And in a lot of cases, like Trump was president at the time, and when you fully lose power or look, you know it's going to ratchet further. The most hopeful thing I've seen, which is probably too hopeful, is that the right is going to have its outrageous spasm of cancel culture. It's going to use the tools and the power of government to censor speech, taking cancel culture to the next level. But it's going to fall apart because the American people, when they vote in elections, a lot of the political science says they're not really actually moved by what the media and what commercials say. That's a fraction of how people vote. What they vote on is the underlying material conditions of their lives, which are rapidly deteriorating under Trump. So his effort to do a Turkey Erdogan or Hungarian, like consolidation of the media to hold on to power may not work because we're so federalized and because people vote based on how they. How you know, And Democratic Party is the oldest political party in world history. So people know they're. They don't know what it stands for, but they know it exists. And so if they're not happy with the conditions that they're living in, they know that they can vote for this other party. They. What is that party gonna do? God only knows. They're not telling us, but at least they're not the party in power. So that could still happen. And then at that point, maybe both the left and the right are like, okay, we were wrong. Let's do an amnesty and a truce on this cancel culture stuff. No, I mean, no.

[Asma Khalid]

Well, let me just, I mean, let me just say, like, well, and we.

[Tristan Redman]

That's why I said it might be too hopeful.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, right. We all pretend like, cancel culture started with like, you know, liberals in the, like, Hillary Clinton era, and that's just not true. Like, think back to the post 2001. Yeah, I mean, and yeah, go back to McCarthy, even the early 90s, like all the little like moral panics about rap lyrics and stuff like that.

[Tristan Redman]

It was John Adams throwing French aligned people.

[Griffin Davis]

Oh, so true.

[Tristan Redman]

Into prison. John Adams. John Adams was the. John Adams was the worst original sin.

[Asma Khalid]

Original sin on First Amendment there. I mean, it actually started with Jesus. Yep, there you go.

[Griffin Davis]

Original podcaster.

[Asma Khalid]

But, but I mean, so I like, I have to tell you guys, I feel, I don't feel scared or angry. I actually just feel depressed because I like, let's play this out a little bit, okay. And let's keep in mind, you guys, Ryan and Emily, you guys covered this week also this consolidation of media institutions in the hands of Trump aligned figures and Zionists. The Ellison, you know, the. So you're going to have, have cbs, potentially cnn, hbo. You know, Twitter's already owned by Elon Tick Tock. Coming under that umbrella too.

[Griffin Davis]

So, yeah, I've got a breakdown of you, of these crystal for you while you're talking.

[Asma Khalid]

Okay. If you want to throw that up on the screen. And so you talk about Orban. I mean, this is Orban. This is like a speed run of Orbanism, which from my study, took longer to consolidate than, you know, this has in the second Trump administration. And then what do you do with the remaining mainstream, you know, establishment institutions? You do what you did with Jimmy Kimmel. You send out the message, listen, you better not cross me or else there are gonna be consequences. And the corporate executives, you know, as a leftist, I never expected the capitalists to fight back against fascism, but they certainly aren't rising to the occasion. There's no doubt about that.

[Tristan Redman]

And so that message is gonna hurt feelings. Don't. Don't hurt feelings with the F word.

[Asma Khalid]

So that goes out, you know, that goes out too, to everybody who works there. Like, they're not going to. They don't have my back. Nobody has solidarity with me. I am just out here on my own. And do I personally have any ability to stand up to the entirety of a United States government? Of course not. And neither does independent, quote, unquote, independent media either. Like, if Disney can be crushed like a bug, what do you think we are? Right? So you have, I mean, you have. So you have that, that's the media landscape. Okay? And then, okay, we have elections, right? We have midterms. We already know Trump is trying to, like, Jerry, rig the maps to make it as favorable as possible, cast out on mail in ballots. They're monkeying around with the voter rolls, like all this stuff that they're going to try to do. Not to mention we've got National Guard already in the streets in multiple cities. Are they going to be there intimidating voters on election day? I don't think it's a crazy thing to suggest, then let's say that. But Democrats overcome that it's too big to rig. They win a majority in the House, they do well in the Senate. Whatever. You think this man is going to accept those election results? Of course he's not. Of course he's not. We already know his playbook. He's already projecting what he's going to do when he's casting doubt on elections and mail in ballots and saying, you know, I wish we had the recourse of the ballot box, but, you know, the ballot box in many cases is rigged and it's not sufficient. He's going to go out and say, no These election results are not legitimate. Democrats did not win these seats. They're incapable of winning these seats. And his base will believe him. So at that point, you have a media ecosystem that is completely compromised, that's terrified to tell the truth about the nature of the elections. You've got, you know, roughly half of, at least of the voting public that is going along with, you know, his view that this is all rigged and sham. Like, where are we then? Because the whole thing, to Ryan's point about, like, you know, it's all written down on paper, but it's. It's as good as the paper it's written on. If we don't all sort of, like, buy into the spirit of the project, the whole thing falls apart. If you don't have most of the population sort of routinely just like, accepting, okay, these results are more or less correct, and we're going to move forward with what we get. So that's where we're headed. And this media consolidation piece is an important part of it because. Because they need to be scared to tell the truth, going, you know, when and if that happens, about what actually occurred. And so that's why I'm feeling very depressed, because I don't see what institution exists or what power structure exists that is capable of, like, rolling back or resisting any of this. It's certainly not the corporations. It hasn't been the universities, wasn't the law firms. You know, it's. It. Labor has already long been defenestrated long ago. They're irrelevant to the conversation, which is sad and pathetic. Um, the court system, like Trump, has realized that, number one, there's this loophole in liberal democracy where if you just do a bunch of shit, it takes a while for the courts to catch up. And number two, the Supreme Court's given him everything he wants anyway when it gets there. So I don't know, guys. That's where we are. It's pretty ugly.

[Griffin Davis]

And they're already on Fox News being like, oh, well, the First Amendment. I don't know if Charlie really would have believed in that. Now, I think Trump said.

[Asma Khalid]

Trump said that.

[Griffin Davis]

And then someone else on Fox News was like, I don't. I don't know if we really. I don't know if we can deal with the First Amendment anymore. I'm not sure if that's as important as these other things.

[Krystal Ball]

We're dealing with literally what every lib said during the Biden administration that sent conservatives through the roof. Not every lib, of course, but it was like all of the Disinformation libs who were complaining about the First Amendment scope being too broad in the way that I mean it is like it she said the thing that was sending all of the right onto their moral high horse and again like in a good way. Right. Like we should all be against the government saying well maybe that whole First Amendment thing is a little outdated. So yeah, I mean I, yeah.

[Tristan Redman]

Emily. Emily, I'm curious for your, your take on Crystal scenario because it seems pretty dystopian but also fairly realistic. The only thing I would say could change that that ARC would be a financial crisis which we do seem like. I think that's a matter more of of when rather than if that could that that basically just flips the table. But outside of that, where do you see holes in the kind of ARC that she sketched out there?

[Krystal Ball]

I don't, I mean I, I, I don't I think you know, for me it was also depressing when the Hunter Biden like laptop case broke and I saw the way the media had treated the like Russia collusion thing for years. And of course I like I remember not being able to DM that story after the Politico broke that 51 former intelligence people coming out and saying it had all the hallmarks of Russian disinformation. I remember not being able to send it over a DM in private conversation. So that was like I felt really similarly then and I think probably the most important reservation that people should have about Trump, even if you're conservative, even if you are ideologically maga, but you're not like full Curtis Garvin and want just like a monarchy or an American CEO instead of a president. The biggest reservation people should still have is fake claims of fraud in election because in elections because that is the hallmark of banana republicanism and we've seen there's precedent for it. So I, I don't think like I actually think a lot of conservatives if you laid out what Crystal just said would be like oh haha. But no, I think it's completely serious because again we have have precedent for it. So I've got nothing in response to that.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Anabe you never have to stress about Messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Anabe Sofas. The only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just 690made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics. That means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 2200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves things this It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o-o o.com America is changing.

[Asma Khalid]

And so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Let me ask you guys something too about this York county shooting of, you know, there was an ambush.

[Asma Khalid]

Pennsylvania.

[Tristan Redman]

In Pennsylvania, five cops were ambushed, three killed, two two others wounded. And I'm curious if you think that the climate that we're in explains some of the lack of attention that the media is paying to this. The guys. Matthew Ruth was the, is the killer. He was, he was, he was killed or he took his own life. It's, there's, there's very little information about, about this. He was stalking his, his girlfriend, his ex girlfriend. She called the police. They suspected an ambush and still got ambushed from a cornfield. And, and he's, he's a registered libertarian, I believe. White guy. Like it's what people call demographically inconvenient. But even given all those facts, the killing of the shooting of five police officers and the killing of three usually makes national news, even if the shooter is demographically inconvenient. Yet there's barely been a blip. I wonder if the, the political climate the media is under right now is influencing decisions by broadcasters to say, you know, what do we, let's not touch this. This is like, this is just, this looks, this looks like trouble.

[Asma Khalid]

I mean, the innocent explanation would be there's just so much else going on, you know, with Charlie Kirk just being assassinated and that being the investigation of that being ongoing and the Kimmel censorship and all of those things. Right. And presence in the uk, like all these things that are going on that it just couldn't quite break. But what I would say, Ryan, is if the shooter were trans and just murdered three cops, everyone in the fucking country would know about it and it would be wall to wall coverage. So I think there's no doubt that the demographic inconvenience of the shooter is a big part of the reason why networks decide, you know, there's a lot of other stories to cover. We're just not going to touch this. We're just going to let. Put this one on the back burner and we're not going to particularly touch it. Now I will say that's nothing new, of course. You know, how many stories do we have of like adorable little white girls who get murdered and kidnapped or horrible things and they become national names and stories and same thing happens to an adorable little black girl and nobody ever knows her name. Like, this is not a new thing in terms of American media presentation. But I think you are correctly touching on the particular political valence that could be influencing, you know, the lack of coverage, lack of details, the lack of curiosity around this one. Because when I saw the spring think I, I was like, wow, what the hell is going on here? And I'm still in the place of wow, what the hell is going on here? Because there hasn't been much if any significant like journalistic inquiry into what exactly unfolded and what the circumstances were.

[Griffin Davis]

So Ryan was a crazy story. Ryan was. Ryan was searching for hope earlier in this episode and he. We were also searching for people that were meeting the moment. And a lot of people have been saying, oh, what about all these center right, right wing podcasters who made free speech and cancel culture a core part of their message, a core part of why they voted for Trump, why they supported Trump and the vibe shift. And people were, A lot of people on the left were saying, oh, these guys are going to duck their heads, not meet the moment. And so let's see what the that side of podcasting has been saying first here I've got a few different ones. This one here is from Tim Dillon. This is an Instagram story. For those just listening it says on his Instagram story, commissioner threatening to revoke broadcasting licenses has chilling effect on free speech. AG threatening to go after hate speech is a bad sign. When someone has a weapon, everyone will use it. I continue to unconditionally support Israel and all of its actions now and forever. It's nice to cover your bases there.

[Tristan Redman]

He also announced that I don't. I couldn't even tell if he was joking that. That he'd been fired from the Saudi Arabia.

[Krystal Ball]

Comedy circuit.

[Asma Khalid]

So I separate issue that might.

[Tristan Redman]

But he's keeping the down payment. Yeah.

[Asma Khalid]

Because he did rip that. I looked at their website and for the comedy festival, and I don't see him there anymore. So I think that might have actually been true because he did his whole monologue where. Which I covered and did a monologue about where he was like, you know, they're paying me enough to look away. But then he said in the monologue, I. If someone's being beaten next to me, I'm going to look away. If there's slave labor, I'm going to look away. So he sort of named the things that Saudi Arabia is doing. So I. I can't. I couldn't totally fire them.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, you fired some joking.

[Asma Khalid]

But I think he may. I think he may have been canceled from.

[Griffin Davis]

The funniest thing to do is take the down payment and get fired. Getting fired is the funniest thing you can do always as a comedian. And that's why, like, Tim has been unafraid to kind of, like, poke all sides, including, like, his friends. Like, I mean, he's ripped rfk. He ripped Barry all the time. He used to get invited to dinners. There's.

[Tristan Redman]

So he also. He also joked, I'll be taking the down payment and donating it to a foundation that supports. He's like, I'm just kidding. I'm going to buy a car.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, another car. See you in Montecito.

[Griffin Davis]

But this one I thought was even more interesting. This comes from a barstool sports podcast. Now, the CEO Dave Portnoy seemed to support the decision was kind of gaslighting people and saying, it's not really a big deal. It's all about a business decision. But here's one of the podcasts under his arm. And what they had to say no.

[Tristan Redman]

Right now in 2025 at 1006 on.

[Griffin Davis]

September 18, the extreme right are the biggest group of that has ever existed in America.

[Tristan Redman]

A bunch of.

[Griffin Davis]

Because people with. With green hair at Starbucks, because once in a while a guy swam against girls.

[Tristan Redman]

You have broken in half led.

[Griffin Davis]

In.

[Tristan Redman]

Consequence culture Portnoy, who is just waving his arms at the right to like.

[Griffin Davis]

Him again after the thing last week.

[Tristan Redman]

Where he said it was Trump's fault.

[Griffin Davis]

Privately and publicly, that Charlie Kirk died. Now he's like, I gotta get them back. I gotta get them back. I gotta get it back. Typical, I will say, fits the tribe profile. So there's that. And, you know, wait, is that just getting anti.

[Tristan Redman]

Just getting anti Semitic at the very end there?

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, the tribe profile that's still on barstool.

[Griffin Davis]

All right, let's.

[Tristan Redman]

Let's.

[Griffin Davis]

We'll look into this.

[Tristan Redman]

We'll.

[Griffin Davis]

We're gonna look.

[Krystal Ball]

I thought he got into a big.

[Asma Khalid]

He had me until the end there. Yeah.

[Tristan Redman]

Talk about not sticking the landing right? You know, Jewish.

[Griffin Davis]

Yes, he's. He's Jewish. Yes, he's Jewish, Yeah.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah. So he's just wraps it up with some blatant anti Semitism.

[Krystal Ball]

That was.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, like.

[Tristan Redman]

But he's talking about Portnoy, wasn't he?

[Asma Khalid]

He's talking about Portnoy. When he says typical member of the tribe, he's just basically saying, like, typical Jew. So. Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Davis]

All right.

[Tristan Redman]

Jesus Christ.

[Asma Khalid]

So we, We.

[Griffin Davis]

We lost. We lost that one. Tim. Tim De. Stuck the landing. Far better by hailing Israel. So we're showing the right way and the wrong way of doing this.

[Krystal Ball]

We've smoked out the true anti Semite on breaking points, and we all know it's not.

[Tristan Redman]

Griffin, Griffin, Griffin.

[Griffin Davis]

Okay, this is the free half of the show. This is the half the Fox News producers watch. Emily, this is not okay.

[Tristan Redman]

They watch the whole thing. They absolutely watch the whole thing. They share one premium sub.

[Griffin Davis]

I'm a defender. I'm a defender of Jewish people all around the world.

[Tristan Redman]

Check the IPs of their login. Yeah. See how many people.

[Griffin Davis]

They did name drop Starbucks, though. And I had to throw this up up here. There's an update here from Starbucks. Update. Starbucks employees must write Charlie Kirk's name.

[Tristan Redman]

No matter what your name is.

[Griffin Davis]

Yes, exactly. In response to some conversations on social media, Starbucks shared the following. There are no restrictions on customers using Charlie Kirk's name on their order. And we are following up with our team, which I just think is. Is such a great example. It's like this is the world that they're envisioning. Like that they need a safe space at Starbucks so that they're what, like, so lib coded? The trans barist barista can write Charlie Kirk on it. Like, I don't know.

[Krystal Ball]

I do. I want to say.

[Asma Khalid]

Go ahead Crystal, I just, I, when, before Starbucks made this decision or whatever, I felt really bad for these baristas who are trying to navigate like this corporate policy against writing anything political on the cups and these customers coming in and like berating them and recording them and putting them on blast the world. Like, I felt, I felt very bad for the barista. Right.

[Tristan Redman]

How is that not political?

[Asma Khalid]

That is, Yeah. I mean, how do you navigate that? Right. Like your boss is telling you to do one thing and then you've got this customer who like, wants to make a social media moment of it and then Libs of Tick Tock is gonna, is gonna send it out to the world and make it out like you're some evil, like pro murder lefty or whatever. So I, Yeah, the whole thing was.

[Tristan Redman]

And, and Port Portnoy fired some intern from barstool because he posted condolences to Charlie Kirk on like the Barstool Texas account or something. And he fired him saying that you're not allowed to do politics. Doesn't matter.

[Krystal Ball]

What.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah. You see this?

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, I didn't see that either.

[Krystal Ball]

I didn't see that. That seems weird.

[Tristan Redman]

And Portnoy said, I always hated this kid. He knows you're not supposed to do politics on the account. It's not about what he said. It's, these are, these are accounts. It's not his personal account. You're not supposed to do politics. He had, the kid had posted basically thoughts and prayers for Charlie Kirk from the Texas Barstool account. But they have a very strict rule, no politics from the account. So to Crystal's point, if you're a barista and they say no politics on the cup, and somebody asks you to put a political gesture on the cup, you say no. Then you get filmed and now you're on Libs of TikTok. And so, yeah, Starbucks kind of put them in a bad situation. I agree with you there.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. I mean, I also just do want to say, because I, I, I genuinely think this is important, that when something happens to somebody who's in the media space. I think this probably also explains why Dean Withers, for example, had such a visceral reaction after. But really though, Griffin, like after it happened, did you see Withers video?

[Griffin Davis]

For those don't know, Dean Withers is like, Dean Withers is a very young zoomer, liberal tik tok debater.

[Krystal Ball]

And he was, I mean, it was.

[Tristan Redman]

By the way, here's this, I think.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, there it is. Okay.

[Asma Khalid]

Scumbag. Wow.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah, he is not.

[Krystal Ball]

But anyway, what I was going to say is for me, like, as someone who did not know Charlie Kirk nearly as well as a lot of people who are in the media who were very, very close with him, like in right wing media who were like very, very, very close with him, them were. This is just all I'm trying to say here is not defending any like, censoriousness or whatever, but just to say that I have been trying to extend a lot of grace to people and hopefully that people have extended some grace to me because that was like a collective trauma for people on the right who are really close to Charlie Kirk and are now the ones that find themselves in positions to be like in the public space discussing it. So I hope that some of the. This dies down. I don't think all of it will die down, but I did just want to say that like, if something God forbid happened to like someone on the left, I do think we would also be seeing some of this like deep visceral anger that's like, feels really raw. And again, I'm, I'm not saying that's going to go away. I don't think it is. But I do just want to say, like, I just knowing some of these guys, what this did to them psychologically was incredibly hard. And I can't imagine, again, I wasn't like a close personal friend of Charlie Kirk's, but a lot of people that I am close friends with were. And it's just. So anyway, just a word to, to say I think some of it will go away. I don't think all of it will go away. And it's just been crazy.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I don't extend that point to the President of the United States though. And that's who. That's fair, you know, is because.

[Tristan Redman]

Because he showed that he had no emotional reaction, that he doesn't care.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, he was talking great. I'm doing great. My renovation is going fantastic, you know, so, you know, and I don't know how capable he is of human emotions on the best of days, but whatever. I mean. And so that's, that's like, it's one thing. Okay. A cultural phenomena, random influencers. You know, I still think you're a person with a platform, you still have responsibility. Certainly. I don't think grace would be applied in the other direction. Not that that should dictate what you do, whatever, but that's one thing.

[Krystal Ball]

But the President, Betty Johnson, is a good example.

[Tristan Redman]

Yeah.

[Asma Khalid]

President of the United States is using this as a chance to crack down right in any number of ways on media figures, media outlets he doesn't like. On left wing groups. You've got Stephen Miller who is like basically the real President of the United States who is out there overtly like we are going to use this aggressively to go after all of our political enemies and they will, I mean and that's, I believe them when they, when they say that and they are already taking steps in that direction. So you know, my, my, my grace that I can extend to individuals who, who directly knew Charlie and are impacted by this on a personal level does not extend to the President United States who is supposed to represent all of us and is probably the worst person I could possibly imagine to be the president at a moment such as this.

[Tristan Redman]

That and I, before we go to the premium, one other point, I think the audience correctly sussed out that the trauma that Emily is talking about having hit people close to him but also people in the broad kind of ecosystem also does bleed out into people on the progressive side too. And I think that just psychically, psychologically people like me and Crystal and Hassan and anybody who's kind of like a public figure, you know, saw themselves in that and I, and I then I, and I think the audience is right to you know, kind of be, to be wary of the, of that fact like understand that we're, that our analysis flows out of, out of that bias and so that but I don't think there's, you'd have to be be just a, you know, stone cold non not human person for it to be any different. And that's not who we are any either.

[Asma Khalid]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Griffin Davis]

Well on that note folks, we are going to get into a lot of other fun stuff here in the second half. We're going to be analyzing breaking down the Candace Owens new released photo of the shooter, Tyler Robinson alleged shooter shooter and we're going to be getting to a few other stories. If you want to see all that and ask us questions in the AMA, you can sign [e-mail] to support us and our independent journalism. We don't read ads. We don't take money from anybody. It's all you guys and we'll see you there. On the second half.

[Asma Khalid]

Time for a.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Sofa upgrade, visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699. Anabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large space. Anibe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Griffin Davis]

Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Join host Michael Searle Creighton behind the scenes to talk all things. Things are Cogna with Steve Martin, Martin Short, Selena Gomez and more. Actors, writers and crew from season five. Watch and listen to the new podcast series Only Murders in the Building Official Podcast now streaming with new episodes Tuesdays. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and don't miss Only Murders in the Building Streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers Terms apply.

[Asma Khalid]

Every day has a to do list, but adding Enjoy Belveda to yours can help you knock out the rest the of of it. Belveda Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack Bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Best part?

[Asma Khalid]

They both taste great so make the most out of your morning with a bite of Belvita.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Pick up a pack of Belvita at your local store today.

[Asma Khalid]

This is an iHeart podcast.