← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
9/22/25: Erika Kirk Forgives Assassin, Trantifa Debate, Kash Patel Feeds Conspiracies, Ted Cruz Shreds Trump FCC
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Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.
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Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.
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We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you atbreaking points.com. morning, everybody. Happy Monday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?
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F
Indeed we do. Yesterday there was a large memorial for Charlie Kirk. Hundreds of thousands of people in attendance. We're going to bring you some of those clips, including extraordinary one from his widow, Erica Kirk. This also comes as the there are continue to be many questions about the investigation. So we're gonna break all of that down for you. You've also got some new reaction to Jimmy Kimmel's suspension that we wanna update you on. Alex Acosta continuing to defend that Jeffrey Epstein sweetheart deal. Pretty extraordinary stuff there. Trump publicly pressuring, perhaps accidentally publicly pressuring Pam Bondi. Seemed like he posted a DM as an actual truth. Anyway, we'll get into that. And firing a prosecutor because they would not go after his political opponents. Meanwhile, Tom Homan caught taking in an FBI sting, apparently taking 50k in cash in a Kava bag. So got to break that one down for you. And the uk, Canada and Australia have all decided to recognize a Palestinian state. Is additional pressure being applied to Israel and does any of that matter? So lots to talk about this morning. The AMA Live today.
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Yes, we have the ama. Also, do not slander Kava's good name. All right. It is my favorite fast food.
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F
Not Kava's fault.
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I'm just saying keep them out of the headlines. Everybody. Protect Kava at all costs. You're talking too a three times a week eater here with all of that. Thank you very much. BreakingPoints.com for everybody who has been signing up for the show. It really means a lot. Crazy times. Crazy times. I will say I do think that we've been able to provide a unique and different perspective from a lot of the one track stuff that you see out there. So thank you to everybody. And of course we have the AMA Live coming up for our premium subscribers. There's also a debate that was included in our Friday show for all of our premium subscribers and it posts for free later on today. But you could have had access to that. And yeah, we'll have another interesting announcement for premium subscribers tomorrow. So let's go ahead and start then with Charlie Kirk's memorial. Hundreds of thousands of people showing up. It was basically like a presidential inauguration and or you know, super bowl style event down there in Arizona. Let's go and put some of the video that we have up here on the screens. Crowds were gathering at 4 or 5 in the morning. Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. The current estimate is some 300,000 people attended from across the United States. You can see a picture here of the stadium. I mean, again, literally, it's kind of interesting to consider this was happening at the same time the NFL and all that was playing on Sunday. And you can see this is basically an NFL stadium full of people who attended. So it was a very poignant moment there in terms of memory for Charlie Kirk and the memorial. And we're going to separate out, I think, you know, some of the political and then also the personal, as we said with Erica Kirk, who I thought was just absolutely stunning in her remarks. We'll start here with. There was a dichotomy, I thought, throughout the entire memorial. So if you heard from Charlie and a lot of his staff or Charlie's staff and the people around him, what they wanted to emphasize is that Charlie's memorial was not just a celebration of life, but of what was very personally important to him, which was spreading the gospel of Jesus and of Christianity. And so there was a major juxtaposition, I thought, from some of the Christian thematics, and particularly with Erica Kirk and her call for forgiveness for the killer of her husband, but also with Donald Trump, the president, and, of course, Stephen Miller. So just to give you a flavor of what some of that looks like, here's some of Stephen Miller's remarks. Let's take a listen. We will prevail over the forces of wickedness and evil. They cannot imagine what they have awakened. They cannot conceive of the army that they have arisen in all of us.
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Because we stand for what is good.
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What is virtuous, what is noble. And to those trying to incite violence.
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Against us, those trying to foment hatred.
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Against us, what do you have? You have nothing. You are nothing. You are wickedness. You are jealousy. You are envy. You are hatred. You are nothing. You can build nothing. You can produce nothing. You can create nothing. You have no idea the dragon you have awakened. Then put on the full armor of God. Do it now. Now is the time. This is the place. This is the turning point for Charlie. He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent, and I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. But now Erica can talk to me and the whole group, and maybe they can convince me that that's not right. But I can't stand my opponent. That was Donald Trump there. He said, Charlie, he did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagree with Charlie. I hate my opponent, and I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry, saying that out. So a little bit of a juxtaposition there. And, you know, it's interesting, I saw there's a famous tweet by Ross Douthat who said in 2016, if you don't like the religious right, be careful for what you or you will be amazed at what the post religious right will look like. And actually, that quote in particular really struck in my head there with Donald Trump's remarks, because, I mean, this is one of those times. It was like right after Trump, the Charlie's assassination. Any other president, including J.D. the very first thing he do is like, my friend was killed. It's a horrible disaster. And instead, it's just like division, division, division. Now, why? Because, look, that is what he has done his entire political career to great effect. I still remain. I mean, it's open question, you know, at this point, to its own political utility, but obviously, it's made him president now twice. And so it's one of those where, look, that is all Trump really knows how to do. That is, in a way, I mean, in my opinion, it's one of, like, the worst things you could do at a memorial. But in my, you know, estimation, that was actually a good juxtaposition of, you know, the current tensions within the American right, within America itself. You have, like, older Christian evangelicals or devout Catholics who call for forgiveness. And we'll show you that here in a little bit. And then there was a similar juxtaposition of Stephen Miller and Trump being like, no, we don't forgive our enemies. We're going to destroy them. We're going to go after them. And that, like, is the fundamental tens of, like, old right versus new right, and, like, nobody really knows where things are gonna go because Trump is such a unique figure in and of itself.
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F
Yeah. And blaming anyone who's left of center and opposes Donald Trump for the killing. And that's what he said of Charlie Kirk. You know, I mean, that's. That's the message coming from Trump. That's the message coming from Stephen Miller. And it's not just a message either. Right. They're trying to use this moment for their own political ends, for an authoritarian power grab, to further crush dissent and weaponize the government against their political enemies. It's very naked what they're doing here. Stephen Miller is the, I think you would agree, most powerful aide in the White House. I think significant amounts of the Trump administration portfolio have been placed in his hands. So his words, to me, are almost as important as Trump's words at this point. Of course, Trump ultimately sets the tone. And there were many comparisons being made with Stephen Miller's speech, but actually, the one that stuck out to be. It sounded very much like a Bibi Netanyahu speech, a Hebrew one given in Hebrew where he's talking about Amalek, and he said, we're the children of the light, and they're the children of the darkness, et cetera. Using the, you know, the barbaric acts of Hamas on October 7 to smear all of the Palestinian people and justify atrocities against them. Now, I'm not saying that Stephen Miller is gearing up for a genocide here, but I am saying that the rhetoric really echoes that, that we've heard consistently from Netanyahu and other Israeli officials in this very like, we're the good ones, they're the evil ones. Us versus them, divide, divide, divide. To your point, and I think the juxtaposition between Trump and Stephen Miller and Jack Bosovic and others who were there on the stage really like using Charlie Kirk's murder as a battle cry for effectively, like, a final, crushing defeat of the left. Because I do think there is a sense among some, like Stephen Miller, some on the right, that they're really gonna go for it now and that this is gonna be like a final defeat for the left. And they've got all the tools at their power, and they' really, from the beginning, have been all in on that, and they planned it with Project 2025. And all of this, which I think is foolish to act like there's any sort of final victory that can be had in our political system, at least I certainly hope that is not the case. But the juxtaposition between that and what Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica Kirk, had to say, I think it's fair to say, is quite stunning, is quite, actually shocking. So let's go ahead and play a little bit of what Erica Kirk had to say. This is a four guys.
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That young man.
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That young man on.
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The cross, our Savior said, father, forgive.
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Them, for they not know what they do.
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That man, that young man, I forgive him. Forgive him. Because it was what Christ did and is what Charlie would do. The answer to hate is not hate. The answer, we know from the Gospel, is love and always love. Love for our enemies and love for.
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Those who persecute us.
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Wow.
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I don't know how she did that. I don't know how she did that. And truly a stunning moment of courage. And moral character and leadership of a sort that. I use the word shocking intentionally because I think we've forgotten what it looks like to have an example of such moral character and leadership in a moment when the country desperately needs it. So to me, Erica Kirk, I mean, absolutely stole the show and really made those who came out with vengeance and bitterness, and we're going to use this to crush our enemies, really made them look small in comparison to what she did right there.
- [13:26]
A
I thought it was heroic. I mean, you know, can't help but get emotional even, even watching it. To say something like that in the midst of, you know, watching your husband get gunned down, it's amazing. And you know, put a eight up here, please, on the screen, guys, just look at this. You know, just continue her and you know, look, I'm not Christian or any of that, but to me, this just seems like the best example of somebody who really is living their faith. She said recently in an interview with the New York Times, Erica Kirk said that she told her attorney she does not want to decide at all whether her husband's killer gets the death penalty and that she wants the state to decide, quote, I do not want that man's blood on my ledger. And she continued that she didn't want her decision in the case to have any say on whether she eventually would be able to see Charlie whenever she died. And so I just thought incredible amounts of poignance. She's a real heroic actor in the midst of this assassination. And she was the first person I thought of after Charlie's death along with his small children. And so I would hope, you know, if anything, that the great takeaway is there's still a lot of great people left, you know, in the country, regardless of a lot of our divisions. And so I thought broadly, you know, if you put those two things together, like I said, it does kind of show you the different paths that we might take.
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America is changing and so is the world.
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But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
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I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
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Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.
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Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
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Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
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A
I do want to return to your point about crushing the left because this is a very important conversation. Like what does it mean? And who was Tyler Robinson? Now at this current moment of what we know about Tyler Robinson, we'll get to a lot of things that we don't know about Tyler Robinson. But if you accept that Tyler Robinson was a killer, what are the broad things that we know? Okay, so what we know is that we have a terminally online gamer who dropped out of college after six months in the midst of COVID had weird sexual proclivities, including his furry memes and his boyfriend situation or whatever. What does that situation tell you about our culture? To me, and this is, you know, I continue to say this, is that a lot of people are really stuck because they recently read the book the Days of Rage, which is by the way, an incredible book. But their theory of the case is that this is like organized at a higher level and that at that time, what a lot of people misunderstand about the 70s is it was not a cultural revolution or any of that. It was extremely small splinter groups like the Simbanese Liberation army, the Weather Underground, and a few of these. It was like 25, 30 genuine radicals, let's be honest, like actual radical people. They blew up the Capitol. Not joking, but dismantling that was actually like not that difficult. Like it just took some FBI operation. And by the way, if it happened today, you know, the only reason they got away with a lot because it was the 1970s. None of it would even happen today. You know, with the Internet, with current invest. The problem that we have right now is like an inverse. It's kind of like what we were talking about with lone wolf killers, Remember in the 2010s, whenever we're talking about the rise of ISIS and atomization and people who get inspired, they may never even meet Anwar Alwaqi, but they would watch one of his videos and they would get inspired and they would use the Inspire magazine at the time to plan attacks. How do you go after that? It's an interesting question. One of the things that the FBI and all of that embraced at that time was they had basically entrap anybody who, who even came close to the line with Al Qaeda. And everyone was broadly okay with that at the time. I'll be honest, even at that time I was like, yeah, good, right. But now you're like, well, you know, the state overreach for that. It leads to things like the Whitmer, you know, Whitmer plot, which is bullshit. It was entirely organized by the FBI. It leads to, you know, there's still a lot of questions about January 6th and those guys who were in the crowd being like, yeah, let's go on in there. And who were all the police informants, et cetera. So that's the question which I think we should all kind of linger on and like, what does it mean? And it gets to the point too of like, is this a cultural problem or is it a government problem? I think the government could have some impact. I mean, again, for me personally, my main takeaway it was like, no, we need morality police back guys. Like we need shame. Any parent out there who's letting their out there, who's giving them kids computers at age 13, like Robinson's parents, apparently just letting them game for 12 hours a day. Sorry, like you need to be publicly called out. And this happened in the Mormon community. That's another thing people need to grapple with. Pornography, TikTok, gaming, all of it. Like I think there needs to be serious, serious government, actual look at all that. I know people get furious cuz that's what they're, you know, the only thing apparently brings joy in their life. But that's not the same as like, this is a George Soros funded operation. I think it's fair to say that in the Prosecutor's case, like in a lot of these cases, Chesa, Boudin or Krasner. And these people, like, I actually don't think they would be where they are without George Soros. So, like, that's a different kind of conversation. But specifically around Antifa. Like, Antifa is not the Weather Underground. Like, it's mostly like a bunch of like, loser kids who are inspired, very Robinson esque, like, inspired online. They think they're fighting World War II or whatever and like go burn down a police station or outside of Portland ICE facility because they think they're like, in the French resistance in 1942. I mean, I think they're idiots, but, like, that's not the same thing as the organized, like the Boudin family and others. Bill Ayers in the Weather Underground planning bombing plots or the Symphony's Liberation army being like, let's kidnap Patty Hearst to start a revolution. I could go on forever, right? You know, with the Black Liberation army or some of the splinter off groups back in the 70s who were like, we're gonna start a race war. Or Charlie Manson, you know, another one. Although, you know, the state.
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F
Weren't there bombings like every five days or something? There was crazy like that at the peak.
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Crystal. There were over a thousand bombings in the 1970s.
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F
Yeah.
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Everybody's got to go read this important.
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F
Context too, because it can feel like we're living through an unprecedentedly, like, volatile and violent time.
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A
There are also hijackings. Like there were. There was. The 70s were wild. There were just hijackings all the time. There were bombings all the time. There were kidnappings. The crime rate, if you think crime is bad now. Oh, my God. You know, during. At that time, from the 70s to the 90s, it was unbelievable. There was leaded gasoline. That was, you know, that's what a lot of the stuff people point to. But my only broad point is, like, it was a different problem. Same with the KKK in the 1950s. Easily infiltratable, highly organized, the Grand Dragon. You basically make it so that six out of seven Klansmen are FBI informants. It's a joke. By the 1960s, it's not even a thing. I don't see that today. I see it very much as, like, downstream of a lot of culture. And I think culturally we should ask questions, especially about the government, about how to make sure that you don't keep churning out freaks like Tyler Robinson or the Minnesota Killer. I mean, whoever the. Where was it? Denver. The school shooting on the same day. That's right. This is all an Internet problem. Like, 100% Internet. I'm not saying ban the Internet, but listen.
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I mean, the shooter who got a lot of attention for being trans in Minneapolis, and very similar to the details of the Denver school shooter, that was on the same day that Tyler Robinson murdered Charlie Kirk. And, you know, I'm still putting the pieces together like everybody else, and it. It is perplexing because I'm taking, you know, Ken Klippenstein talk to a lot of Tyler's friends. And even the portrait, that, for me, is kind of convenient in my mind of, like, oh, he was, like, just constantly online and lost touch with reality and radicalizing these spaces. I don't know that that entirely fits because his friends were like, you know, yeah, we talked to him online, but, like, we went camping together, we went hunting and fishing. Like, he had interest outside of just, like, gaming all day. And then you have the piece of. He was. And again, this is based on Ken's reporting. And, you know, I spoke with Ken about what his view of was, what was going on. You know, he was struggling with his identity, his sexuality. He was from this extremely religious, very conservative family that did not accept he was apparently bisexual, did not accept him for that. So you have this, like, conflict in terms of his identity, and then you have. And a relationship that I think he either hid from his family, that was what his friend said, is that he couldn't even, like, bring himself to bring up this relationship to his family. So you have that going on, and then you have rhetoric from Charlie Kirk that's, you know, very hostile towards trans people in particular. And it seems like, outside of that, like, LGBTQ issues, the portrait is not someone who was, like, particularly political. Now, more things may emerge, but that's one of the things that is. To me, it would be easier if it was like, you know, he was in the. On, you know, 4chan, and he was, like, in these discord servers that were, like, extremely radical. And he was, you know, memeing grouper stuff all day or whatever, like some kind of political radical, like some sort of ideological thing. But I'm not even sure that totally fits, which is why it's hard for me to really fully wrap my head around it.
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A
See, this is where I disagree. And this is why leftists, I think, always ignore this. Like, you don't just get into furry stuff. Normally. It's porn. Everyone needs to be out. Like, this is a pornography problem.
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F
But that's not. But that's not like, no, no, no, but, no, no, no. What I'm gonna say is that is not like furrydom is not a leftist ideology.
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A
No, I'm saying.
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F
But his sexuality. His sexuality, I absolutely agree. I think was at the heart of whatever happened here. I think based on what we know at this point. But I, I just think if we zoom out and we look not just at him, but we look at the pattern of these school shooter and political assassin types that we're getting now. There's a lot to be said about online culture. There's a lot to be said about nihilism, a sense of hopelessness that has pervaded our culture, especially for young men who feel like they have no sort of direction and meaning in life. Some of those things are cultural, some of those things are downstream from policy. But in any case, to your point, there was an NBC News article, we actually didn't pull it for the show. We probably should have, where investigators are saying, like, we're really trying to connect this to some broader left wing groups and we can't. Like, he is, it appears based on where the investigation. Now, this was one person who decided to commit an absolutely horrific political assassination and murder. And so the efforts by Stephen Miller, Trump, J.D. vance, et al, to use this to connect it to some broader. Like now we have to crush all of these left wing groups. There's zero evidence that these things are connected whatsoever.
- [25:43]
A
As I said, I've been on the record against it because I also don't even think it's really work. It's not effective. I think it broadly would be. Would also backfire if you actually think about it. I mean, this is a mistake that the right always makes is that their assumption is that the left is just like them. The right is much more politically organized and connected to money. Right? So like there is an entire ecosystem. As long as you're good on Israel, like you're gonna have a job in this town for a long time, you'll be just fine. Whereas leftism is broadly the ideology of the politically educated or the college educated. And thus, like when we say that the left is taking over institutions, it's because of ideology, college education, democratic separation, that you can relatively guess that any project manager at a big technology company is left wing. And. Or a Democrat. You can also guess that in finance or any of these other places. Now, they may not be the type Democrat you are. They probably voted for Kamala. They would say liberal, capital L. Liberal, right? Let's put it that way. That's important to say and that's like a cultural distinction. But this kind of gets to my point about Tyler and about. From what we know so far, like, you're saying it's not political. I actually would argue that, you know, look, we've had endless debates here. Transgenderism and gender ideology itself is obviously a massive social contagion, and in and of itself is brought on by the Internet and largely the weaponization and, quote, acceptance of this ideology and pervading it throughout the entire nation. Now, this is both sides of that coin, because what happens then is that Charlie becomes best known for a lot of these clips that go viral talking about biological reality or girl. Right. And so that's how Robinson gets to the point where he's like, well, because of my own, like, weird sexual proclivities, I'm gonna go and murder somebody who speaks against them. I mean, that is, like, really important to internalize. Like, that's how important he thought that his, like, trans furry fetish was to murder someone over. Like, how do you get to that point?
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F
Internet, I think. I'm not saying it's not political, just to be clear. I'm not saying this was, like, divorce from politics. I'm saying there wasn't, like, a consistent, coherent ideology outside of clearly. I think it is quite clear that this one issue.
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A
Yeah, that's right.
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F
Was animating for him. We don't disagree on that. I mean, I do want to point out, like, he's not trans, and from what the government is saying, the, you know, allegedly trans romantic partner has been cooperating and wasn't involved, etc. So I just want to put that out there because I know. I know you're not. I know you're not. I just want to clarify, because there is an impetus as well, again from Ken's reporting. There's an effort now to label, like, transgender extremism, whatever, and, like, blame all trans people also for what happens. I'm just clarifying. So I'm not saying it's not political. I'm saying it is different from a, like, consistent ideological view. And I don't think we can also divorce out the impact of growing up in this very conservative, religious, and very repressive culture where he didn't feel accepted from his own family. And this was a major source of tension for him in his life, as well as his identity is developed by.
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A
The Mormons on that one.
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F
I think that's a factor to weigh in as well.
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A
See, that's why people blame the Mormons. No, they're doing it right. You should shun this stuff if you're A gamer and you're porn addict.
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F
I don't agree I should be out. I don't agree with that, Sarah, because it's a different thing to say video game addict or porn addict or whatever. None of which we know. Projecting that we don't actually know that. We don't know that about Tyler. But I think what we see consistently is the more repressive a culture is, sexually repressive a culture is, the more that you end up with things like, you know, more like fringe sexual views, more of the sort of things that you would be opposed to more. Like include things like more domestic violence. Like all of those things tend to correlate with more repressive religious cultures. And so I don't think that you can look at the picture of him, the little bits we know, which again, a lot of this is speculation without also taking into effect part of what he was struggling with was this identity conflict between him and his upbringing and his family and his community.
- [29:54]
A
I would say that is, in my opinion that's a 1990s take which potentially had its impact in the year 2025. I think we have swung so far in the other direction again where you have people who are literally have a trans furry fetish. I mean we have to, we have.
- [30:09]
F
To be really small town in Utah. Yeah, I know, it's really, really conservative. Like all the things you wanted to.
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A
Up call, all the things you should.
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F
Want it to be, it was. And you end up reading this killer.
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A
Right, that's my point.
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F
That should tell you that like the cultural solutions you want are not a cure since that's exactly the environment in which he becomes this killer.
- [30:29]
A
What I am trying to show is that the Internet and this sexual degeneracy is so power that it pervades the entire culture to the point where your own in person matters, don't even their own in person networks, which potentially would have been able to quash a lot of this in the past, is gone. That's the power of the Internet. And also that's the real cultural supremacy of libertine left wing sexual ideology.
- [30:52]
F
Again, I think you're projecting a lot here because his friends, according to people who have spoken with him, are like, he wasn't the thing you're painting him to be. That was not their experience with him whatsoever.
- [31:04]
A
Well, I mean, it was his experience in his personal life at the very least. Again, from what we know about writing furry stuff or whatever in his own personal relationship. But zoom out. I mean, we had the trans Nazi killer in Minneapolis like How does that happen? Like, seriously, how does that happen? Mental illness plus Internet plus weed. It's a very simple thing. Like, was the person really transgender or were they, like, semi autistic and then convinced, just like Abigail Schreier's book, that actually I'm trans? And then. And you start plugging yourself full of hormones and you go off like, this is what I mean. People need to have very serious. Whenever we talk about transgender experience, I.
- [31:38]
F
Want to point out that transgender people make up a disproportionately small number of violent acts. Like, if we want to look at a group in society, if we're going to do, like, demographic call ons here, it is overwhelmingly white men who commit these mass acts of violence.
- [31:54]
A
But I don't think you want to go down the demographic role in terms of crime. And that's my point. We have to talk about.
- [31:59]
F
No, the only reason I went in that direction. I don't want to go down the demographic direction in terms of crime. But if you're gonna paint trans people as, like, inherently murderous, then we have to correct the record there, because that is the polar opposite.
- [32:09]
A
I will say they are inherently, and this is proven out, have the highest depressive rates and suicide rates of the most of the general population.
- [32:16]
F
Really hard to be trans in America. All right, just listen to some of the things you're saying. Listen to the things that Charlie Kirk used to say. It's not easy to be trans in America if you can't accept that.
- [32:24]
A
And you're saying what I'm saying is hate. It's an empirical fact that a lot of these people are very mentally troubled. That doesn't mean that I'm saying that they should not exist or they should be killed. I didn't say any of that.
- [32:34]
F
I didn't say that.
- [32:35]
A
It's a very reasonable position.
- [32:36]
F
I didn't say that. You did.
- [32:37]
A
Right. But I'm saying this conversation matters a lot.
- [32:40]
F
Trans people as, like, there's something mentally wrong with them in some cases. Many cases, yes, that may be the case. But also, you have to realize that if you are a transgender person in modern day America, it is not an easy experience. I disagree with that.
- [32:57]
A
I mean, if you live in New York City and you're trans, you're going to be celebrated. Come on.
- [33:00]
F
Like, let's.
- [33:01]
A
Let's live in reality.
- [33:02]
F
Yes, let's live in reality.
- [33:04]
A
If you live in Northern Virginia, Charlie.
- [33:05]
F
Kirk used to say, look at what Donald Trump says. Look at what's coming down from the federal government. I mean, I don't know if you have any trans people in your life, but I do. And I can tell you that they feel like half the country does hate them and wants them dead. It's not an easy thing to live with. So no one should be surprised that, yeah, there's higher levels of mental illness and depression that comes along with that. I don't think that's. Not. To deny that there may be some. That they're transgender is an expression of their. But how do you disentangle these things?
- [33:30]
A
I mean, you look at social contagion, where the vast majority of this is largely social contagion and mental illness. I'm sorry, it's just empirically true, and it's one of those where it's not empirically true. Yes, it is. No, it is. The rate of transgenderism went up 2,500% in a decade because of social contagion or because people were, quote, legitimately trans. Like, come on. Like, this is what I mean about the Internet and this, quote, acceptance using and basically giving that permission structure for mental illness.
- [33:54]
F
I will not deny that there is some level of, like, you know, that part of it is a social phenomenon. Okay. I don't want to put that off the table. Part of it is also that people for the first time, feel like there is some level now is not nearly enough, but some sense of, like, I can be myself. I can. There is, you know, more of a community that's more open. And, yes, the Internet allows them to connect themselves with other people who are like them. And so, you know, to, like. I just. I'm not sure why we went down this rabbit hole, but I just want to say Tyler Robinson is not trans. He, you know, the trans romantic partner. Reportedly, according to the government, nothing to do with this. And so I'm not sure why, like, trans people are being thrown under the bus here, because if anything, the way this being, you know, the story that's coming from the government is that the trans person here was, like, actively shocked by this, had nothing to do with it, and is cooperating with investigators.
- [34:47]
A
What I'm trying to say is that it is part of a broader social problem. And I'm not saying that Tyler Robinson is trans. I'm not even making this necessarily about Tyler Robinson, because the Minneapolis shooter, Nashville, all of this stuff has to come together for a serious conversation about the fact that the Internet is literally poisoning people and enabling mental illness at vast areas. And by the way, for anybody who thinks I'm, quote, transphobic with these remarks, go ahead and roll the tape about what I said about schizo schizophrenia. Schizophrenics are, like, compared to gen pop, are so much more likely to commit violent crime. You can apply my exact language about schizophrenia to transgenderism, gender ideology, et cetera. What I object to is a broader conversation. Like, Ken, for example, I thought. Frankly, no offense, Ken, I thought your article was outrageous and ridiculous because you said. What Ken said was that it was like, transgender people are going to be classified as terrorists. No, what is said is that a specific type of, quote, gender ideology, extremism will be classified under nihilistic, violent extremists. That is an entirely appropriate thing in the world of Minneapolis and in the world of Nashville and in. Particularly in gender ideology.
- [35:56]
F
There's not a gender ideological in Minneapolis. The person being trans had nothing to do with anything. Okay, well, I think they were, like, some part of some weird online neo Nazi cult.
- [36:05]
A
Oh, you think the schizophrenia. You think that the mental illness that just happened to accompany becoming transgender had nothing. This is what I'm saying. Like, it does have something to do with something. It's just that people want to deny that reality. And this is also.
- [36:17]
F
Again, then let's have a category for white men. Extremists.
- [36:21]
A
Sure. I mean, I don't think you want to go down that road again, considering where demographics of crime break down in this country.
- [36:26]
F
I think you're seeing things you want, like, through a lens of your ideology and what you want to see, especially given that what you can point to, you know, one person who happened to be trans in Minneapolis who had all kinds of weird Internet stuff and neo Nazism and whatever, there's no indication they murdered because of their transgender ideology. Tyler Robinson is not trans. Like, there's nothing illegal about having a transgender relationship. And we know very little, actually, about Tyler Robinson and where he was and what he was doing and how he was spending his days, et cetera.
- [36:58]
A
In the case of the Ukrainian girl who gets her neck cut open, the schizophrenic, and he says, I got that white B word. Well, now, what does that mean? Do we think that's a racist attack or a schizophrenic attack? It's downstream of what schizophrenia. So we can say it's obviously downstream of mental illness. The fact is, is that if you look at the mental illness rates, depression rates, and so much more in, you know, amongst transgender and gender ideology. And also, apparently that Robinson can become so caught up in all of this, he literally wants to murder someone else. Yeah. We should have a conversation about that and, you know, a final thing here. There's this always this word transgender people thrown under the bus. What does that mean? Cuz if it's about reasonable stuff like banning puberty blockers for children under the age of 18, I think that's ridiculous. That is an extremist policy.
- [37:43]
F
Sagar.
- [37:43]
A
What I think is about Leah Thomas.
- [37:44]
F
But what I would say. Sagar, what I would say is the way that this conversation started on, you know, what's appropriate for kids, what's appropriate, what do we do in sports, like, that's one thing. But very quickly, you now have just allow an attack on trans people coming directly from this government.
- [38:02]
A
What does that mean?
- [38:03]
F
It means outright discrimination against trans people. Like, for example, not being able to change your gender on your passport, for example, increasing laws, laws around the country that are making it difficult even to have health care. You know, gender affirming health care for trans.
- [38:19]
A
A very dystopian term.
- [38:20]
F
No, it's not. I thought you didn't hate trans people. It's fine. I thought they could live their lives. Then you should be speaking on against these laws too.
- [38:28]
A
No, well, I. Well, first of all, no, the laws on the books are not banning adults. What they're doing is they're banning it for children.
- [38:35]
F
No, that is not true.
- [38:36]
A
No, no, no.
- [38:37]
F
Look at what's going on in Florida as one example. They are making it nearly impossible for adults to seek gender affirming care. So you want to live in reality. Tell me what this administration thinks about transgender. Oh, they love transgender adults. No, I don't think they love transgender adults. No. That's why people in this country feel that they are under attack by this administration. Look at how in the military, trans people were not only. Not only not allowed to serve, but if they did serve and they earned a pension, they're having their pension taken away.
- [39:09]
A
I think that's precaution. I agree.
- [39:11]
F
So to pretend like there isn't an attack on transgender adults, putting aside, you know, however you feel about kids, which I agree is a fraught topic and a difficult one to parse through. There is no doubt that they are under attack and that this administration wants to use this murder and, you know, the Minneapolis one, or whatever else they can cobble together to further target and surveil transgender individuals and paint them like they're murderous mentally ill extremists.
- [39:38]
A
I think the nuance needs to come back. Like, look, I know you're gonna object to this, but the transgender in the military thing, it's like, listen, if we're gonna talk about mental illness. Would you allow a schizophrenic or somebody else like that? I'm not saying all transgender people.
- [39:50]
F
All transgender, there's something wrong with that. And they're mentally ill. And then in another breath you'll say, oh, but I love all trans. I'm not judging, I'm not transphobic.
- [39:59]
A
I'm not. I don't love trans people or hate trans people.
- [40:01]
F
You just think they're all mentally ill and need to be kicked down of supplies.
- [40:04]
A
I think that mental illness is pervading a lot of the, quote, trans and gender ideology conversation. And I wish that we were able to talk about that seriously without, frankly, like immense amounts of social pressure. And that's part of the, I mean, look, this gets to like, why we are where we are today, why Trump is even president, why any of this is even being allowed in a polite society. The pension thing, I agree, it's disgusting. Okay, Absolutely. I would never agree to that. In terms of adults being able to do what they wanna do, I support that. Now, of course, though, the conversation is also important in terms of money, insurance availability, permission structure. This is like abortion. I mean, when people, it's like when Republicans or Democrats, for example, say around abortion and they wanna talk about third trimester abortion versus late trimester abortion, but they lump all of those things together. I think we can all recognize there's a nuance in between late trimester, six week abortion and like seventh trimester. Right? Because that's the point is if you try to loop it all together, which a lot of Republicans do, when they make the pro life talking point, it's viewed as disingenuous. I think it's the similar way. And look, it's a hot topic and I don't really know why it's so religiously baked into left wing current ideology. I genuinely don't get it. But one of the things that is clear to me is that these sacred cows or whatever, actually in the midst of all of this social chaos with the Internet, have to be discussed. That's really my only point. And I think also, you know, objecting Ken's reporting, for example, by saying, objecting to the fact that you can't classify gender ideology, extremists without, quote, declaring war on trans people. Ridiculous.
- [41:40]
F
Yeah, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous. I think it is a different.
- [41:42]
A
They're not a special class.
- [41:43]
F
I thought it was different group. Group. You would see the, you would see it differently because we know about the way that the government, you know, abuses These like domestic extremist categories. Okay, so even if, you know, like Ken's headline seemed to imply all trans people were going to be like deemed.
- [42:04]
A
And that was bullshit, it was right.
- [42:06]
F
But we do know the reality of the way that if you have one of these, you know, domestic extreme categorizations that the government will then use that as justification to surveil like, you know, any sort of trans related group or any sort of, you know, anything that is related to that. And it will be applied much more broadly than would actually be appropriate for people who are like truly radicalized by that ideology. And I think that, I mean, I think you would agree with that there's an abuse of these terms and that that's the fear is that this is gonna be a broadening expansion more broadly, not just for people who like, are truly, you know, trans extremist, rad or whatever, that's going to be applied too broadly in a way that is oppressive and is against the rights of these people and is a group that, I mean, I think you have to acknowledge it is a group that definitely feels and in reality is under attack and has been otherized by this administration and made to be scapegoats and part of this group of like Stephen Biller. We're the good ones and they're the evil ones. And whatever this administration's movie is, to create categories of groups who fall either on the like true American good side or on the bad side. And there's no doubt that they put the trans people in like, you know, the evil scapegoat.
- [43:21]
A
I'm just not ready to go there. I don't think that's true because I just think like, if you're, again, you.
- [43:25]
F
Know, by the way, I mean, you.
- [43:28]
A
Know, okay, but you know, with the trans people, the trans community, the trans activists and all those people, they're gonna call me a Nazi for everything I just said. I'm like, you know what? That's why I don't even not gonna take you people serious.
- [43:37]
F
You wanna plug little six year olds, me with the hormones, react to them, like react. Don't imagine we learn to say, let's like deal with the argument.
- [43:44]
A
I've dealt with them.
- [43:45]
F
Deal with the argument at hand, which is, you know, I think to use Tyler Robinson, who against not even trans, to justify this targeting more broadly of trans people by the government. I think that's wrong. I think it is a factual. I don't think that there is, you know, any reality to it. And in any case we can, if you have a last we can move on.
- [44:08]
A
It's entirely appropriate to treat treat quote gender ideology, extremism as a subcategory. It is not a war on trans people. You are not a special class of citizen. If there's a higher rate of mental illness and or violence or particular like you're talking about white men. It's like well if you look at the demographics of the country but white men can be grouped in very specifically to the school shooter manifesto, you know, category and we can talk about that publicly with no shame or fear. Well then I'm sorry you get to be treated like everybody else else, which is apparently what you want. So I just, I think broadly this conversation it has ignited in me like I maybe I'm trying to find like a secular morality police. Maybe that's a fool's errand, but we need to bring it back. That's my main takeaway from this entire thing. The Internet is poisoned.
- [44:54]
F
They're doing it in Utah.
- [44:55]
A
No they're not. Not nearly enough.
- [44:57]
F
They are.
- [44:58]
A
That's the problem. They're not doing it nearly enough.
- [44:59]
F
Small town in Utah. I'm sure you'll be feeling that that not so secular morality.
- [45:04]
A
If you get their asses off the Internet, then maybe they maybe none of this would happen.
- [45:09]
B
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- [46:39]
D
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- [46:43]
E
But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [46:51]
D
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E
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- [46:58]
D
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- [47:03]
E
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:10]
A
Okay, turning now to Kash Patel and some of the questions about the Charlie Kirk assassination. Our whole debate was predicated that we know everything. But to be honest, you know, after this, I'm not so sure. So let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. I gotta be honest, this is one of the craziest things I've ever seen from an FBI director. And the reason why is in some ways it legitimates many of the, quote, conspiracy theories around the assassination and actually makes me think, wow, the fact that they're talking like this means some of this shit may be true. So let me keep it up there, guys, so I can read from it. Quote. As the director of the FBI, I am committed to ensuring the investigation into Charlie Kirk's assassination is thorough and exhausted. Exhaustive, pursuing every lead to its conclusion. The full weight of America's law enforcement agencies are actively following the evidence that has emerged. But our efforts extend beyond initial findings. We are examining every facet of this assassination. We are meticulously investigating theories and questions, including the location from where the shot was taken, the possibility of accomplices, the text message confession and related conversations, discord chats, the angle of the shot and bullet impact, how the weapon was transported, hand gestures observed as potential signals near Charlie at the time of his assassination, and visitors to the alleged shooter residents in the hours and days leading up to September 10th. So he lays out every single question that has been raised, basically with some currency on the Internet. Then he goes on. Some details are known today, while others are being pursued to ensure every possibility is considered. Our primary focus is to complete this investigation and deliver justice. To protect the integrity of the investigation and subsequent prosecution, we cannot release every piece of information we have to the public right now. We will ensure every question is addressed at the appropriate moment regarding specific details, such as questions about the plane that allegedly turned off atrocity after departing from the airport assassination site. We can share updates when answers are confirmed. After interviews with the pilot, consultation with the faa, we determined transponder was not turned off. Incomplete flight data in rural areas caused the apparent gap. The entire FBI mourns the loss of Charlie. Kirk will not rest until justice is served. And our investigation into this assassination will continue until every question is answered. And the fact that he laid out out every single one of those, did not dispute any of them, effectively gives them currency and, like I said, legitimates it. And the only one that he can potentially strike down is this one about the plane and the faa, which, by the way, was known within, I don't know, hours after the assassination. That's what was happening. I saw an aviation expert hours after just come out and be like, guys, it's a typical area. The transponder wasn't off. It's just that this is like one particular airspace where it will go out every once in a while. It's. Don't read too much into it as a result. So I don't know, what did you think? Because there's two options. One is, this guy is so chronically online, he wants to ensure that the Internet doesn't turn against him. So he's going to list out every single thing and try to take it seriously and I guess slowly try to dispel it in the future. But the counter is like, okay, if these are so legitimate that the FBI is actually investigating it, that really makes my eyebrows raise, especially because if, look, Robinson, as of right now, is not cooperating with authorities, right? So presumably he may plead not guilty. Well, couldn't you use that tweet at trial? And being like, hey, look at all of these legitimate questions raised here on the defense from the FBI director, and now all of that. You know, by the way, the FBI will have to make sure that they meticulously go through, like, he claims and actually provide an explanation for each one of them so that Robinson's defense cannot present that to a jury at trial. Presumably, if it goes that direction, we don't know yet. So I thought it was insane. It's basically crazy. No matter.
- [50:48]
F
Absolutely insane. I mean, I think it definitely has to do with, like, Kash Patel is an Internet influencer. Like, that's what he actually is. And so he's seeing all of these theories floating, and he already knows that people hate him because of how he handled the Epstein stuff. And he doesn't want to catch any more heat from his listening and viewing audience. So he's trying. Oh, guys, like, I'm totally. I'm with you on the conspiracies. I'm looking into it. I'm on it. I think that's probably a lot of what's going on. But to your point, like, dude, we already have a charging document for Tyler.
- [51:19]
A
Robinson, and it lays it all out.
- [51:21]
F
The government has laid out a quite complete and specific theory of the case, and it does not involve, like, maybe the shot was taken somewhere else. Maybe there were accomplices, maybe there was, you know, maybe these text messages. Like, he even seems to allude to the text messages being fake, which is. It's like, this is your evidence. So he's undercutting dramatically the government's story of what happened on that day. And it's crazy. Another one he mentions here, how the weapon was transported. Again, we're being told from the government, like, here's how the weapon was transported. Here's what the weapon was. Here's where the shot was taken from. And now the FBI director is saying, well, actually, we're not really too sure about any of this. Yeah, it's manna from heaven for Tyler Robinson's defense team. There's no doubt about it. And it's completely insane. Like, dude, you're not an influencer anymore. You are the government. You are the deep state. Like, that's who you are. Now, you have asserted a very specific theory of the case, and now you're going in and saying, well, we don't really know. We're still looking into it. We'll get back to you. Crazy stuff. Absolutely crazy.
- [52:25]
A
It fits also with this next part here. Let's put it up here on the screen. There's a new claim from. From the surgeon, actually, who operated on Charlie in the immediate aftermath of his killing, where they say, quote, charlie Kirk's body stopped a bullet that would typically, quote, just go through everything. And it was, quote, an absolute miracle that nobody else was killed. His surgeon told tpusa. So, by the way, this is secondhand information. It's from tpusa about the bullet. There've been some questions about the bullet and whether it would have passed through Charlie. I mean, I'm generally open, you know, giving the benefit. I don't see there's any reason TPUSA or the surgeon would lie about the situation. But it's just that when you put the totality, you know, in the fact that Cash legitimated it, and then it's A question here. It just seems all a bit odd. I almost think in that case, it's like, it would have been better to just, like, in a way, there's too much transparency right now, you know, from the tps and cash and all them. Because they're like. Well, they're like every single claim ever made, Whether Charlie made $150 million from Netanyahu, where it was offered that or something. It's like, guys, you know, in a certain way. That's why I just. I really felt crushed for Erica Kirk because she apparently is gonna give an interview soon addressing all. Yeah, let this lady be, please, please. I mean, I don't know. I just think. Or for her. Like, nobody's saying that she had to come out and do it, but the fact that she feels compelled to. I have complicated feelings about it. Like, I just want this. I want this woman to have peace. She seems like such a wonderful soul, you know, her and her kids. Like, I just. I don't know. I think it's not good that this amount apparently, you know, TPUSA people, this was a report. I don't. I'm not. Nevermind. I'm not gonna say it, but my point is just that I think TPUSA people are getting hounded about this. I mean, they just lost their leader, you know, their friend in a lot of cases. So it's difficult. It's a difficult situation.
- [54:18]
F
Yeah. And this information from the surgeon originally came from the EP of the Charlie Kirk Show. Andrew Colvitt. Is that how you say his last name? And I mean, they're just. Look, they are asking the public to believe a lot. I mean, even Cash apparently recognizes that there's a lot that they're asking the public to believe. And this is one of the things that is extraordinary, you know, if true, that the surgeon said that Charlie's bone was so healthy and the density was so impressive. He's like the man of steel. It should have just gone through and through. It likely would have killed those standing behind him, too. In the end, the coroner did find the bullet just beneath the skin. Even in death, Charlie managed to save the lives of those around him. Remarkable. Miraculous. And, you know, I don't know anything about, like, the kind of bullets or whatever. I know people are looking at that who do know something are pretty skeptical of this claim. And the other piece, that's, you know, again, it's like, where was this information previously? Because previously it seemed like they didn't have the bullet. And now here we are a number of days later. And they're like, oh, no, we do have the bullet. It's beneath his skin. It's just like miraculously, he's the man of steel. So it didn't go through. Maybe. But again, you're asking people to accept a lot here.
- [55:31]
A
The other reason why is that may not have even been the explanation. That may have been what the surgeon told tpusa. And then let's say something else comes out at trial, then people will be like, wait, but you said.
- [55:41]
F
You said this.
- [55:42]
A
Right? So. So that's why I'm saying there's almost too much right now about people who are coming out. And I mean, look, we do have to be on. There's a lot of weird stuff. It remains, you know, even with the official narrative with this. By the way, the outfit change, it seems to have been validated. Candace released that photo of Robinson at dairy queen like 18 minutes after he shot Charlie Kirk.
- [56:02]
F
No, it was hour.
- [56:03]
A
Sorry, sorry.
- [56:04]
F
Yeah, it was like at 6:30 after Kirk had been shot. Somewhere in the new hour.
- [56:08]
A
Oh no, he apparently changed. That's what it was. But he was in that different out outfit, you know, in that photo, which psychotic.
- [56:14]
F
Well, he was in a mix of the two outfits. Yeah, yeah, he was in the maroon shirt and the black pants. That's. Yeah. I don't know. And I, I mean, I'm not even. I can't even say for sure that that photo is real. So. Yeah, you know, it's possible it's from another day. It looked like. Oh, it looked like him. It could be AI. It could be from another day. I don't really know. But you know, she. She said it is. But Candace is not also like a traditional.
- [56:37]
A
Yes, that's fair. All right, last thing we'll put up here. This was a final thing report from the New York Post, which actually kind of makes sense if you take Robinson's text to be real. It said that the gun that killed Kirk is quote, a World War I era rifle that may be untraceable. What they describe in his text, Robinson called it grandpa's rifle in that it's a decades old German made gun that was used in both World war. But I think the point around it was it may be that he actually did select the rifle either because of the serial number. By the way, they're saying maybe untraceable because we don't know the official model or anything of the weapon. And we still. By the way, one reason why I'm inclined to take this more seriously is remember they had the rifle Very early in the investigation, the day of. But they didn't have Robinson very early. Whereas if it was traced or if it was easily connectable to the person who bought it, the grandpa, that's not that difficult. Be like, oh, okay, this person. Family tree. Boom. From public records. Tyler Robinson. That's an easy way to go there. Until Robinson turned himself in after his father basically turned, you know, used him or forced him to with the sheriff or whatever that was. They were family friends with. They were nowhere the night before Robinson was caught. They literally were nowhere, according to law enforcement. So I'm inclined to take this a little bit seriously, which is part of what makes it weird, because the thing is with Robinson is, again, if you accept that the texts are in some way real, which I do think they are real, maybe that is cringe of me, but I just not quite at the point where I think we're fabricating stuff in court documents that are eventually gonna go to trial. Just me. Maybe I have too much faith in the system.
- [58:16]
F
Cash is investigating it. Sorry.
- [58:18]
A
I'm just saying. I mean, think about that. That means all of America's jurisprudence is fake, including the state of Utah. I'm like, maybe. It's definitely possible. But if we accept they're real, he did wanna get away with it, which is like, why did he turn himself in at the end of the day? I mean, he went to great lengths from those text messages. Maybe it was planned in terms of the weird rhetoric and vernacular that he used, which we talked about previously on the show. So there is still a lot of weird stuff. And if you are a conspiracy theorist on this, I don't blame you, because the way the government has handled has been a disaster.
- [58:49]
F
Yeah. You have no reason to believe this government, especially led by Kash Patel, who, as I've said before, is not only political apparatchik, but he is also a incompetent fool. So there are any number of reasons why you should, you know, be skeptical of the claims here. And I don't even think. Like, I don't think it's fair even to call you conspiracy theorists at this point. If you're looking into some of these holes, that's like, the job. I mean, I think that's part of the job of a journalist. Oh, absolutely. Is to not just take at face value the government's claims, to say, okay, well, these pieces don't really add up. What have you got for me there? How did he transfer the guy? Why don't we see it in any of these photos? You know, those sorts of things I think are all like reasonable and nonprofit or. No, you're not questions to ask.
- [59:31]
A
I'll give you an example. Uvalde. The first 24 hours, the uvalde cops are a hero. The timeline, you know, we were some of the first people to do this. Yeah, you're putting the timeline together. You're like, wait, the shooting started like this time and they didn't kill him hours later? How does that happen? You're like, so are we understanding? And then the mom story. Remember the mom with the time to get in the car and drive all the way there and get her kid out and take her out all before this happened. Like, that only happened because of very critical reporting. I mean, maybe it would have eventually come out, but I'm not so sure actually, because it took a lot of pressure on the Texas Department of Public Safety and Uvalde APD and all that before the full story was eventually. And then by that time, you know, that's a whole different picture. Especially with Governor Abbott and his initial press conference and giving all the credit to, you know, the initial response. It's like, that is not what. What happens. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good flag. You shouldn't believe it because a lot of times I do lie. And it did happen. All right, let's get over to Jimmy Kimmel, shall we?
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- [61:30]
A
We got one play. Everything we work for comes down to this quick question.
- [61:34]
C
Speaking of working, how would you rate your athletic program?
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A
Bro, we're in the middle of the state championship.
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C
Oh, so like a B then?
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A
Dude, get out of our huddle.
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C
Well, at holmes.com, we leave it all on the field to get you detailed information on local schools.
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A
Off the field.
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C
Off the field.
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A
Copy.
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C
All right, go sports.
- [61:52]
A
How'd he even get in here? Homes.com. bingo.
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C
We've done your homework.
- [61:57]
D
America is changing and so is the world.
- [62:02]
E
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [62:10]
D
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.
- [62:12]
E
Tristan Redman in London, and this is the global story.
- [62:16]
D
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [62:22]
E
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [62:29]
A
Let's get to the Jimmy Kimmel situation. Some escalating stuff here from Donald Trump around the term free speech. Here's what he had to say.
- [62:36]
H
I think it's very sad, but I.
- [62:39]
A
Think that reporting has to be at least accurate.
- [62:43]
H
At least accurate to an extent.
- [62:45]
A
Again, when somebody is given 97% of the stories are bad about a person.
- [62:52]
H
That'S no longer free speech. That's no longer, that's just cheating and they cheat.
- [62:58]
A
That's no longer free speech. He also, in an interview was asked about Charlie, who believed in free speech. And he was like, well, I'm not sure that he believes it now. So, yeah, really classy stuff there from the President. But it does actually make an interesting question about how the Republicans are responding to this moment after Jimmy Kimmel. And for a recap, if anybody doesn't know at this point, we have the FCC commissioner hours before going on the Benny Johnson show, saying, quote, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Before a merger was up for some ABC affiliates which are owned by nexstar. And in that moment, that's when Jimmy Kimmel's show is indefinitely suspended by ABC Disney. It's an open question. There's been some, quote, you know, cope being like ABC was gonna indefinitely suspend him anyways. Some in person report or some in depth reporting from the Hollywood Reporter basically says that Kimmel was gonna go on his show and say screw you to his MAGA critics the day before, which factored into ABC's decision. So, of course, if it was just a business decision, then it's a little bit different of a free speech conversation. But I do think the very fact that the FCC commissioner said, quote, we can do this the easy way or the hard way way, it's kind of an open and shut case, right? Because, you know, you can't deny that that's gonna be in your head, you know, as people who run businesses. If we got threatened by the government. And then there also was like a legitimate business reason. I mean, it'd be pretty convenient to do the legitimate business reason, whereas maybe you would have thought about it a little bit differently. You just can't deny that it wasn't in the heads of Bob Iger and of the CEO of Disney on top of all of the affiliates who, again, like, they need, need, let's say, even if Brendon Carr didn't say you have to take him off the air, they're like, well, we still want to be on his good side because we need our damn merger to go through where they literally have to change their own rules. So that's what I would say.
- [64:50]
F
Yeah. And Brennan Carr not only said, we can do this the easier way or the hard way, but also specifically shouted out the affiliates and said, oh, they need to look at what they're doing and whether they should preempt the show. And then nexstar folds and then Disney folds and the reporting from inside of Disney abc. Was that what they didn't actually feel like Kimmel said anything that was particularly wrong or over the line. The thing that caused them to make the decision that they did was the pressure from the government. So in terms of that, it seems pretty clear cut. And then you also have Trump had already, after Colbert gets cancer, then he had already threatened Jimmy Kimmel. He's now threatening the other late night host. They've also. Brennan Carr has come out and is threatening the View. The View was too terrified to say anything about any of this on their show, which is pathetic, we have to say. On their show on Thursday, I guess was when this all was going down. So, you know, they're clearly feeling the heat.
- [65:44]
A
Well, silencing the View is one where I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna speak out for that.
- [65:48]
F
Have to keep your principles.
- [65:49]
A
That would go, that would be a key.
- [65:51]
F
But we have to keep our principles. But in any case, I don't know, we get a lot of content, enjoyment and creation off of the Views. Careful for what you, what you, you wish for. In any case. I think that's an example, though, of how it's not just about the direct people who are targeted. It's meant to put a chill in everyone who's a comedian, any sort of critic, any sort of, you know, podcaster, journalist, et cetera, so that they're thinking twice because they know their corporate bosses are not going to stand up for them. They're going to cave because every single time they have caved. So that's part of what we're talking about.
- [66:25]
A
I don't know. Again, everyone keeps going after the corporations. Like, what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to make money like, you know, at a certain, like you think ABC, Disney ever cared about journalism? It was a money making endeavor.
- [66:35]
F
Well, if they ever had confusion about that, there is no longer any confusion about that whatsoever.
- [66:41]
A
I want that to be baked in for everybody. It's like, what? Oh, CNBC cares a lot about business journalism. Yeah, for sure. It's definitely not about a tool of, you know, Wall street and the financiers to like control the market. It's always been that way. It's just, I guess it's now out in the open, which I appreciate. You know, in the Marxian, you know, heightened the contradiction sense. Let's take a listen then though, Ted Cruz, who heavily criticized Brendan Carr and the Trump administration on this. Let's take a listen.
- [67:08]
I
I like Brendan Carr. He's a good guy. He's the chairman of the fcc. I work closely with him. But what he said there is dangerous as hell for.
- [67:18]
A
Hold on. For people that are listening because this is going to be, quote, controversial. So I want to make sure we explain it clearly. When you say no and it's dangerous. Explain and run this out the slippery slope that this can open in so that people understand why we're saying it.
- [67:34]
I
So the Federal Communication Commission is in charge of granting broadcast licenses. So abc, NBC, cbs, they have licenses from the fcc. It is true that under statute they are required to be in the public interest. What he is saying is Jimmy Kimmel was lying. That's true. He was lying. And his lying to the American people is not in the public interest. And so he threatens explicitly, explicitly, we're going to cancel ABC's license. We're going to take him off the air so ABC cannot broadcast anymore. And I got to say, he threatens it. He says, we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way.
- [68:15]
A
Yeah.
- [68:15]
I
And I got to say that's right out of Goodfellows. That's right out of a mafioso coming into a bar going, nice bar you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it.
- [68:26]
A
Dangerous as hell. So what's his angle here? What's Ted Cruz's angle? It's definitely not principle in terms of.
- [68:33]
F
What we know about Mr. Cruz.
- [68:36]
A
We do know he has a personal relationship with Kimmel. So that could be it.
- [68:40]
F
Yeah.
- [68:40]
A
Although. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I was stunned by it, to be honest. I would never in a million years have picked Ted Cruz to go off on this. Maybe it's a 2028 play. Maybe it's. I don't know. Maybe. Honestly, maybe it is a principal thing. Like, you know, he was, like, more libertarian in his old days. This is the type of stuff he used to hammer the Obama administration for. The og, you know, Ted Cruz, Tea Party guy. So it's possible. That's what it is.
- [69:09]
F
I'll tell you my theory. I think it's a combination of two things. Number one is he knew Jimmy Kimmel personally, so he didn't have this, like, animus against him that a lot on the right did. He has some sort of personal relationship with him. So I think that does genuinely make it hit different when it's someone you know, et cetera. I think the other thing is, like, Ted Cruz, he said this on his own podcast. Right. He wants to be cool with the podcast Bros. That could be it. And we're about to play you. You know, Tim Dillon spoke out on this. I think he feels like, you know, wanting to be part of that club, that this is the place to position yourself, is my guess of what's going on here. Because that's who he wants to be down with and see himself as part of the world.
- [69:53]
A
Yeah. I mean, one of the cultural shifts that has happened in the last eight months is that the skolds are no longer the libs, because the libs have been owned literally into the sun, out of power.
- [70:05]
F
You owned them. Congratulations.
- [70:08]
A
It has literally been total and complete victory. Like, they're dead. And so then it's a question of, do you replace and become the scold? And so in the world of the Jimmy Kimmel of the Snowflakery of cancel culture, which we all agreed, you know, some cancel culture we all believe in, there should be consequences in some cases. If you're openly cheering Charlie's death, yes, I think you should be fired. Or at the very least, you know, I'm not gonna feel all that bad for you. But if you simply repost something that's critical. I don't know. I think that's definitely more in the BLM, MeToo era type of craziness, where things have gone so it becomes like the scold and the cultural domination as well as the government action. And that's where sensoriousness is part of what fueled the liberal left of the 2000s. I'm literally just old enough to kind of remember that I grew up in it, you know, these evangelicals and. And this feeling that if you said anything bad about Bush, you're a traitor. Right?
- [71:16]
F
You're a traitor.
- [71:17]
A
You hate the troops. And it's like, no, we love the troops. We don't want them to die abroad. Right. And it's like, oh, you can't say that. Oh, my God, I can't.
- [71:24]
F
You need to support our president.
- [71:26]
A
Yeah. Literally flashbacks to 2005 here, if you wanted. If you're too young. That's how insane things were. Well, you know, we're kind of right back to that, you know, especially in the Charlie Kirk situation. And so that's where, you know, his point. Point about this kind of like, social libertarianism, which I think was a huge, huge impact on the Trump administration. And if you look at a lot of the ways that the Trump 2 is different than Trump 1, a lot of the liberals would say it's more authoritarian. I would say it's a lot more socially libertarian. Because what people forget is that the first Trump administration was very anti weed. Right. In 2017. Now the President of the United States himself is like, oh, yeah, we're cool with weed. Why? Because a bunch of bros used it and they want them to vote for it. TikTok. Same thing for young people. It used to be a China thing. Now we're just selling it for parts to, you know, Rupert Murdoch and. And these guys and Larry Ellison and those guys. But. But the broad thing that kind of fuels that is one which is, like, much more trying to accommodate really, what Charlie was the main organizer for, which was, like, young men in particular who are right wing. But what is the one thing that we know a lot of the reason why these young guys are right wing in the first place is because they don't want to be scolded or told what to think and what to do. And now the shoe is kind of on the other foot. So in a way, it's a smart bet from Ted now, by the way. It's smart only in the sense of, like, grand strategy. Like he himself will never be that vehicle. But that's.
- [72:52]
F
Yeah, true. And this is a man who's wanted to be President of the United States since he was born. So I don't put out that he is also trying to, like, find some angle, some 20, 28 angle. Also wanted to play for you some pretty extraordinary, I would say, comments from Ty Cobb. The reason why they're really noteworthy is this Guy used to be Trump's White House attorney, and he makes some pretty, like I said, pretty, pretty extraordinary comments here about this crackdown on the media. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.
- [73:22]
H
Well, I think, Kristen, that it's evocative of what we've seen throughout history. I mean, in 1939, Dr. Goebbels, at Hitler's instruction, removed five comedians, or witnesses, as they were called at the time, from the airways in Germany. And for criticizing or making fun of the government in a satire way. Putin, when he took over in the early 2000s, one of the first things he did was would systematically violence critical media outlets and independent TV channels were bought out or shut down. You know, Trump is waging war on people who offend him. You know, he's all about vengeance. And sadly, his subordinates, like one of the Project 2025 authors, Brandon Kerr Carr of the FCC, are following in line. And, you know, perhaps the Presidential Crimes Commission that Representative Swalwell called for recently can consider this at the end of this administration. But these people are, you know, abandoning our constitutional rights and our constitutional freedoms. Even Senator Loomis today by saying, you know, she doesn't feel like enforcing the First Amendment at this point, despite having liked it when it suited her. That's a violation of her oath of office, where she takes an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution. So I think this is really tragic. And I think, as Carr said yesterday, there will be more shoes to drop. I think we can count on that. This will be three and a half more years of vengeance.
- [75:12]
A
Todd Cobb, his famous mustache.
- [75:14]
F
The famous, very, very iconic. We'll say mustache, but, yeah, I mean, this is the guy who used to work, and he immediately reaches for the Nazi analogy alongside of saying this is what Putin did. And I think we have to put it in the broader context, which we talked about last week, just briefly, of. We're not just talking about Kimmel here. We're talking about a strategy of using lawsuits to basically, you know, extract, like, concessions from media organizations. And we are talking about a speedrun to consolidation of a bunch of media outlets in the hands of explicit Trump allies who also happen to be extremely pro Israel, specifically the Ellison family.
- [75:49]
A
I would flip that around a little bit. Pro Israel.
- [75:52]
F
It all goes like it goes together, right? It all goes together for now. Yeah. So you've got, you know, cbs and then you've got very likely CNN and HBO and Comedy Central, and then you've got Meta is Zuckerberg is like, you know, totally bent the knee to Trump and is doing whatever Trump wants. Elon owns Twitter, by the way. Elon was there sitting next to Trump at Charlie Kirk's memorial, which was also noteworthy. And then you have go ahead and. Well, we want to. We don't have to play this out. But we also have TikTok. Now, part of the group that is taking over TikTok includes Rupert Murdoch and effectively Fox News. So the amount of media consolidation into direct Trump allies hands, and then you're using things like, you know, this Kimmel situation and the lawsuits to put a chill through every other media organization. So they're afraid to be too critical, and they immediately capitulate when you, when you're FCC commissioner or you say something about them. It is a, you know, it's a very scary development in terms of freedom of the press. And, you know, for those of you who are like, okay, well, that's why we have independent media. Like, you think that we're safe. Are you kidding me? Like, if they, we, Disney and these people, they got tons of resources. Any individual, even the biggest, you know, channel that's out there, the biggest streamer, the biggest channel, whatever, isn't. Doesn't come close to the amount of power and resources and ability to fight back that one of these giant corporations do. So I don't think anyone should be taking comfort in that at this point.
- [77:21]
A
Rogan's the biggest in the business and his deal is 100 to 200 billion. Or, sorry, 100. 200 million. Right. Which is a lot of money, don't get me wrong. That's like NFL money. Well, Disney fiscal year 2025 revenue was 94 billion. And that's what they're up against. And yeah, I think that's very. An important lesson for power and for all of that. Ari. Ty Cobb, I don't know. Personal Boomer pet peeve is he starts with Goebbels and then eventually gets to Putin and Orban, which is, in my opinion, much more analogous. But Boomer brain is that everything has to start with World War II. Let's go ahead, though, and start with Tim Dillon or get to Tim Dillon, who has been one of the more outspoken comedians on this. Let's take a listen.
- [78:06]
G
You can't think it's a great, great idea that the fcc, the chairman of the fcc, goes on a podcast and because we could do it the easy way or the hard way, we could think about revoking broadcast licenses and then pressures affiliates to drop this show because this guy said something the president of the United States doesn't like the president of the United States, then also follows it up by going, hey, Seth Meyers, you know, Fallon, Seth Meyers, you're next. I don't think it was a particularly good thing for Jimmy Kimmel to say this guy was maga. He wasn't maga, by the way. It's easily correctable. You can correct the record without destroying someone's ability to speak. Everybody thinking that Jimmy Kimmel being removed and indefinitely suspended from ABC me means that you are winning. You're a fool.
- [79:09]
A
So there's Tim with his take on that. There were similar ones. The Andrew Schultz who was in Australia spoke out against it. Akash Singh on the Flagrant podcast as well. Those are the ones I just immediately off the top of my head, at least the ones who are more interested in politics. Curious to see what Theo Vaughan and them have to say in Rogan. They haven't commented yet, but I don't think they've had episodes as well. It does show you and demonstrate my technique. Ted Cruz point about this is that if you think the broadcast constituency is important, which I do. I didn't say it won the whole election, but it was something. It was definitely something. Well, within that is kind of this, if you think about it. It's like that is an archetypal demographic for whom they don't want to be told what to do and they don't like government overreach. And one of the ways that they were annoyed with Kama or Biden was, let's say, pressuring the meta or all these other people to take down what they called vaccine misinformation. Some of it was. Some of it was totally true, by the way. But that kind of gets to the annoyance and the feeling of having rulers over you that you can't speak out against, which is a very American thing to do to say no, actually, screw you.
- [80:17]
F
Yeah.
- [80:17]
A
And that's where Tim Dillon and the.
- [80:19]
F
Rest of the guys are. Yeah. I mean, I do have to get my dig in. Like, I don't know why you thought that Trump was going to be some beacon of, of like, free speech.
- [80:25]
A
Okay, but why should we See, everyone keeps saying this, but let's have a.
- [80:28]
F
It's true. Okay.
- [80:29]
A
Oh, Kamala was going to be the.
- [80:30]
F
Beacon of free speech.
- [80:31]
A
So if you have to choose between the two, who are you going to pick?
- [80:33]
F
But there was no, like, oh, well, maybe I should take note of the fact that this guy is always trying to, like, change the libel laws and threatening. In his first administration, he tried to ban flag Burning, et cetera. So I just. I don't think any of that was present in the conversation. I'm glad to see these comments now. But I just, you know, I think. I think if that was, like, your primary reason for voting for Trump, I agree. If that was your primary reason, pay attention to things he'd said and done, et cetera.
- [80:58]
A
If that was your primary offense. No offense. You're an idiot. Which we often said here at the time. It's like, obviously, like everybody kind of. But, you know, I see these owns all the time, and it's like, oh, the people who were literally trying to censor Alex Berenson or Fox News or whatever are gonna be, you know, give us a lecture about all this. Like, come on. Like, there's no. The fact is, is they both kind of equally believe in power. And, you know, the Republicans are probably just a lot more crass about it. But I don't know, I just think.
- [81:23]
F
Well, they're more willing.
- [81:24]
A
Who can be lectured by other establishment liberals about free speech?
- [81:27]
F
They're more willing to happen. To use the full force and weight of the government is what we're seeing.
- [81:33]
A
But the only reason they are is they don't have the same cultural power.
- [81:37]
F
Well, they do now. I mean, with liberals, it was much more about using the cultural power. And here it's like, I'm going to make your. I'm gonna make sure your deal doesn't go through. I'm gonna, like, threaten you directly. I'm gonna do whatever I can to try to crush you so you have an overt, like, full of government attack in a way that is definitely different from what we saw under the Biden administration. And we covered all the things. The Twitter files.
- [82:01]
A
This show's been here from decades.
- [82:02]
F
We've been consistent.
- [82:04]
A
But I was more just saying people were like, oh, he voted for Trump. And I'm like, okay. But again, go back in time. What would a Kamala administration have been done? Probably the same shit, except about anti racism. No, no, no, no. Yes.
- [82:16]
F
You think they would have used the whole government to, like, threaten people? I mean, even if they wanted to, they just don't have the balls to do it.
- [82:22]
A
Anti racism and quote, voting rights. Yeah, I. Absolutely.
- [82:25]
F
But they didn't. I mean, we had Biden Harris.
- [82:27]
A
Yeah. And he was literally a dunce.
- [82:29]
F
And they didn't. They did not do those things. I don't know. So I don't know why you project that they would do different things this time.
- [82:34]
A
Because Biden was a literal dunce. And in Some way. His duncery was like a check in a way.
- [82:39]
F
Kamala's a genius.
- [82:40]
A
I don't say she's a genius, but she's breathing okay. And there's a little bit of a difference.
- [82:44]
F
I mean, I, I disagree. I don't think there's any evidence that. And I'm not saying that they were great on free speech. We had our critiques at the time. But this is extraordinarily the consolidation of power in Trump ally hands, the consistent effort to quash, you know, any sort of universities and law firms and media outlets, the weaponization of lawsuits against them. Like it's different. It is genuinely different. It is genuinely different.
- [83:08]
A
I think the reason is, is because of that point that we made, which is that, you know, the right has the government. It's the last tool that they really have. They don't have any cultural representation, you know, in these companies.
- [83:17]
F
Maybe they do now. They do now.
- [83:19]
A
But this is kind of my thing about earlier is, you know, is Larry Ellison pro Trump or is he pro Israel? Because you know, which pro you are kind of matters. Larry Elson's like, he's like a Republican. Ish. He's like a Mitt Romney, Tim Scott type. You know, if you remember, he wrote big checks to Tim Scott. Is he pro Trump or is he just really pro Israel? And Trump is also pro Israel. Israel. Right. So like I think the distinguish to be able to distinguish between that matters because it's like what's the issue number one that they're gonna fight on the most? It's Israel. Like that's, that's the main one. Even if you look at Fox News, they hated Trump for years, or at least the Murdoch family. They don't like everything about it. But. Oh, but Ukraine, Israel, you know, what else am I. There's like a couple of other issues. That's what they get the most animated about and that's like a neoconservative.
- [84:03]
F
I mean at this point these people are definitely pro Trump though.
- [84:05]
A
Oh, 100% only because of Trump operationally where he is right now. But like I don't think they care or frankly I think they hate Trump at a personal level. They're happy to administrative, but they like.
- [84:15]
F
That they get the tax cuts, they like the Israel policy. They like all of those things.
- [84:19]
A
Yeah, that matters.
- [84:21]
F
One last just, we can just touch on this quickly. Cuz I think it's an important point. Lina Khan has been talking about the way that the incredible concentration of power within the media industry in particular is making it much easier for the Trump administration to consolidate power and indulge his authoritarian tendencies. This is B5. Let's go ahead and take a @ look, listen to this.
- [84:41]
D
Well, look, I think what we are seeing right now is a very clear display of how monopolies and concentrated economic power work hand in hand with authoritarian figures. As you noted, what this is about for the president is concentrating political control. And it is so much easier to do that when you have an economy that is as concentrated as we have today. If you're a president who wants to censor your clothes, critics, media markets where five companies control everything make it much easier to do so than markets where you have 50 or more companies. And so this is really just putting in stark illustration how the extreme consolidation of economic power that we've seen in this country over the last few decades is now ripe for abuse by a president with such authoritarian leaders. And you know, this is actually a pretty old lesson. Even after World War II, the US government commissioned studies to figure out what was it that allowed the rise of Nazism in Germany. And they found that industrial monopolists actually helped facilitate the rise of Hitler. As a result, Congress passed something called the 1950 Anti Merger act because they worried that extreme consolidation in America could also lead to the rise of anti democratic pressure. So these are lessons that were so central to our country for decades. Unfortunately, as we adopted a legal regime that was so much more permissive of mergers, of economic consolidation, it's brought us to the situation we're in today.
- [86:13]
F
And just to back that up with some numbers, I could put B6 up on the screen with regard to the media consolidation. This more perfect Union says in 1983, 50 companies controlled 90% of the U.S. media market. That number now is down to five. So from 50 down to five. And it's interesting, this relates saga we were talking a little bit about like the libertarian are winning a lot of arguments right now because there's different ideologies. Well, there's different ideologies on the left about there's one ideology that says actually it's good to have big giant industrial concerns. For example, if you think about Amazon, okay, if you have this one giant company, oh well, if you force unionization on them, if you force them to lift their wages, then you're having a larger impact all at once. But it's effectively like a very, very high risk environment when you have so much power consolidated. Because on the other hand, you can also have a president like Trump who uses in the opposite direction makes it much Easier for him to consolidate power in the way that he is.
- [87:09]
A
Look, it's a fascinating question of which I am genuinely torn on. You cannot look at the Chinese model and tell me it doesn't work. It obviously works and it works super well. It has surpassed American industry. And so there's a debate here in America how do we achieve the same level of innovation? So the anti monopolists like Lena and others would say that consolidation itself actually quashes competition inherently. That is just not true. If you look at China, what they could say is that in an American context, we simply don't have the same cultural unity and agreement that the Chinese have. And so thus with our heterogeneous differences, we need to debate and that this is more American and character. It's a really, it's a tough problem because if you look back at, you know, she uses the German example, the industrialists, but you know, we had huge consolidation too during World War II to achieve economy of scale, to spin up the war machines where the government came in and effectively operated like China. So, you know, there's a quote where it's something like to beat the enemy, you often have to become the enemy. I'm like butchering it a little bit.
- [88:14]
F
Yeah.
- [88:14]
A
But I don't really see exactly how you can contest BYD Huawei. I was just showing our crew these new Huawei Foldable. This is better than anything that exists in the United States. Like hands down, it's cheaper, it's better. It's called the Matebook or something like that. Byd, by the way, just became the fastest car in the entire world. Like yesterday on a street track. You can't look at that and say that deconsolidation or whatever would be able to challenge it. I don't see it.
- [88:42]
F
Although we also, I mean, it's not like BYD is the only car maker in China. So it's not like they just like invest everything in one monopoly. There's a lot of actually competition within the Chinese.
- [88:53]
A
Give the floor.
- [88:53]
F
Yeah, within the Chinese system there is actually a lot of competition. But I mean, I hear what you're saying, like that's why I phrased it as like a high risk landscape. It's a high risk landscape. It's also a high reward landscape if you do things right and if you, you know, aren't just trying to like serve your own corrupt ends. But unfortunately that's the person that we have right now.
- [89:10]
A
It's not even just that because everybody reaches for the lever when they have it. So, you know, we talked, we just had argument on Biden. Well, what did they do with Meta? You remember when Jen Psaki was like, if you're banned from one social media platform, you should be banned from them. All right? I mean that stuff, it's only possible to exert that pressure because there's only three companies in the world that control, you know, 90%. That is dangerous in a free society. And it also gets to that argument we're having about government power versus cultural power. One of the reasons, one of the, one of the clips of mine that made me relatively famous or whatever on the right was in 2019, I said that corporations could be just as much of a threat to your freedom and liberty as the government. And I still believe that, obviously. But part of the reason why is because of situations like what we just talked about where you can have a full on crush, let's say collaboration between three different companies and if you're parler, you're dead overnight. I mean that was very scary. Now obviously, obviously now through Trump we're learning why the government, people are afraid of the government too. So I get it and I think that's a fair enough counterbalance. But that time was really scary and dangerous as well. So we have to ask that question, what does it mean for consolidation? In what area? I believe it's the more socialists are saying that big is better because then you can force rules on them. And I mean, they're not wrong. If you look at China, that's basically what they've done to lay out the rules. At the same time, if you, you know, the explosion of small business, America is a country of entrepreneurs. Traditionally, if we had smaller banks, I listened to a fascinating podcast of why, if we just had much smaller banks compared to the mega banks, it would create a lot more credit and it would actually enable like credit unions and other things, it would actually enable a lot more commerce and median wage growth, et cetera. So I don't, I've think I've thought a lot about it and I think there's also a big divide between how the US Government, government needs to compete in strategic industry and then how the average American should also have to be able to conduct commerce. Because maybe that's the two separate conversations like aerospace and all that, like Boeing, sorry, like aerospace probably should just be a monopoly. Certain things, one of those things where.
- [91:13]
F
I mean certain things that you have this, you know, a natural monopoly are a thing, you know, I mean, even like the social media, we've talked to solar about that. Even the social media companies, like the reason that they function is because everybody's there, right? So if you, it doesn't really work to have like a thousand different social media companies because then you're not getting the benefit out of it. But then, you know, they should be. If they're effectively like public utilities, they should be regulated differently and there should be, you know, some governance in the public interest. I mean, I guess bottom line, there's just no getting around like electing people who are like good.
- [91:45]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [91:46]
F
The interests of the country. There's just like no shortcut around that.
- [91:50]
A
Libertarians are also always like, well, everything needs to be a check. I'm like, yeah, but sometimes you have great leaders like fdr, sometimes you do and it's great. America gets transformed or Theodore Roosevelt, or you know, Grant Lincoln. You know, these people, when they have immense power at the disposal, they use it for good and then they're like, yeah, but the bad ones use it for bad. I would argue on balance, you know, we've come out pretty damn well. Maybe not recently we've had a bad.
- [92:13]
F
40, not right at the moment at.
- [92:14]
A
A bad 40 year stretch. But you know, before that this is system. I don't know, I think it works, I still think it works.
- [92:20]
F
So I, I still not feeling that so much right now. But yeah.
- [92:38]
B
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B
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F
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B
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- [94:37]
A
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