9/26/25: MASS WALKOUT Of Bibi UN Speech, Mystery Generals Meeting, AIPAC Dem DESTROYED

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode Date: September 26, 2025
Featured Hosts: Krystal Ball, Emily Jashinsky, Ryan Grim, Griffin Davis
Key Themes: The growing global backlash against Israeli policies; Big Tech and surveillance; AIPAC's sway in US politics; Political weaponization of prosecutions; Biden and Trump era authoritarianism; ICE and immigration issues.

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into a week marked by significant shifts in public and institutional reactions to Israeli policy, particularly surrounding mass walkouts during Netanyahu's UN appearance and Microsoft’s decision to block Israeli military use of its AI in Palestinian surveillance. The crew also discusses the fallout from politicians dodging the AIPAC money question, the partisan prosecution of former FBI director James Comey, and a mysterious generals’ summit convened by the Trump administration, rounding out with disturbing news about missing ICE detainees.

---

1. Microsoft Blocks Israeli Military Surveillance

Timestamps: 02:31 – 13:28

Key Discussion Points

• Backstory: Ryan Grim shares investigative reporting on Microsoft’s contracts with the Israeli Ministry of Defense, especially post-October 7th escalation. Leaked internal documents revealed Microsoft’s Azure cloud was deeply involved in surveillance and targeting against Palestinians.

  “We got a trove of internal documents from Microsoft that showed the amount of work...for the Israeli Ministry of Defense skyrocketed after October 7th.”
  — Ryan Grim, (03:14)

• Employee Activism: Grim credits fired Microsoft employees, who, despite risking their careers in a bleak job market, protested internally, which contributed to this policy shift.

  “It’s not cost-free. Like, you’re fired...Yet they’ve now been vindicated.”
  — Ryan Grim, (06:47)

• Implications: Microsoft is among the first major tech corporations to publicly “draw the line” on Israeli actions, following pressure from international outlets and human rights organizations.

• Shift in US Policy Context: Krystal notes the significance given Microsoft’s efforts to court the Trump administration—an indicator the political winds are shifting in Washington too.

  “Microsoft clearly made the calculation that...they can be on the wrong side of Israel and it will not bring them so much heat in the United States that it’s not worth doing.”
  — Ryan Grim, (12:25)

Notable Moment

• European Pressure: Discussion over Israel facing exclusion from Eurovision and European football leagues due to public outcry and populist actions like strikes by Italian dockworkers refusing to handle weapons shipments to Israel.

  “It kind of shows how little in some ways politicians matter because you’ve got Meloni, far right and lockstep supporter of Israel, yet...sending out help because their population demands it.”
  — Ryan Grim, (11:37)

---

2. AIPAC, Genocide, and “Will You Take the Money?”

Timestamps: 16:33 – 26:49

The “I’ve Had It” Clip

• Jennifer Rubin grills Jeff Duncan (GA gubernatorial candidate) on AIPAC money and moral clarity during an unusually tough podcast interview, highlighting discomfort many politicians now feel about associating with pro-Israel lobbying groups.

• Duncan stumbles repeatedly (“I have no idea. I haven’t even thought about it.”) as Rubin and the hosts stress the impossibility of ‘moral moderation’ on a question of genocide.

  “To see these kids starving and not know if you’re going to be beholden to the Israeli lobby...is not something that should take time to think about.”
  — Jennifer Rubin, (17:26)

Insights

• Base vs. Leadership Divide: Democratic leaders, chasing “swingy ex-Republicans,” vastly underestimate how galvanizing support for Palestinian rights has become among their own base.
• Pressure on Podcast Circuit: Emily observes the Democratic establishment’s misreading of rising, grassroots interviewers as “safe”—until they’re not.
• Comparisons with Tea Party Era: Krystal: “It does remind me a little bit of Tea Party years...[when] you’d have these candidates...and just get absolutely torched.”

---

3. Netanyahu Heckled and Escorted Out at the UN

Timestamps: 26:49 – 29:38

Highlights

• Mass Walkout: Netanyahu is booed; people are escorted out as he tries to defend Israel on the UN stage—an “unprecedented” show of international disgust.

  “Apparently he got booed as he came out...This is not normal.”
  — Ryan Grim, (26:54)

• Prop Comedy: Netanyahu brings props and brags about assassinations and the Iraq War, inviting scorn and mockery from the hosts.

  “He’s bragging about all the people he got rid of.” — Emily Jashinsky, (27:58) “Is he really bragging about [Iraq]?” — Ryan Grim, (28:06)

---

4. Can Dems Avoid Tough Questions and Control Media?

Timestamps: 29:39 – 34:16

Key Points

• Party Leadership Out of Touch: Ryan notes new Democratic Senate candidates refuse to endorse Schumer, signaling possible establishment shake-up.

• Populism’s Consequence: Krystal draws a parallel to Trump’s 2016 win: party elites ignoring their own base guarantees an eventual populist backlash.

  “When you do that, you end up with Trump...this is exactly what happened in the Republican Party...”
  — Krystal Ball, (33:00)

---

5. James Comey Indicted—Weaponization and the “Doom Spiral”

Timestamps: 35:58 – 58:40

Background

• The Indictment: Comey was indicted for allegedly lying to Congress about authorizing leaks in the FBI’s Trump/Russia investigation. The panel is united: the charge is clearly politicized.

  “This is a bullshit, politicized charge. There is no way that if Trump doesn’t directly tell the attorney general...that Comey ends up getting indicted.”
  — Emily Jashinsky, (41:20)

Debate

• Tit-for-Tat Justice:
  • Krystal: “I just think it’s hard for me to imagine Republicans being in this position and not trying to dish out some of what Trump got.”
  • Emily: “He tried to coup the government...this is not remotely equivalent to what was done in the past.”
  • Ryan: Warns that vengeful justice makes “being in politics mean that you’re going to prison sometimes when you’re out of power...extraordinarily corrosive.”

Memorable Quotes

• “There is a newly released FBI memo that says Comey also used [a liaison] to the media...there is pretty [clear evidence], but even that didn’t wind up in this indictment.”
  — Krystal Ball, (53:33, 53:46)
• “If the charges were legitimate, you wouldn’t have had to push out your own hand-picked person in order to secure [them]...it’s been assigned to a Biden judge...in normal times would literally be impeachable.”
  — Emily Jashinsky, (40:08)

---

6. Mysterious Generals’ Meeting—Coup, Photo Op, or HR Move?

Timestamps: 60:18 – 67:10

Facts and Theories

• All US generals and admirals summoned by the Trump administration, with Trump joining virtually.

• Washington is baffled:

  • Is it a war council, a reorganization, or “dumb Trump ego bullshit?” No one knows, but the public nature of the meeting is called “unprecedented.”

  “You don’t organize regime change with hundreds of people...it’s probably something really mundane and stupid. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just a big last-minute Trump photo op.”
  — Ryan Grim, (64:48)

• Speculation: Concerns raised about possible action in Latin America (Mexico, Venezuela), but most hosts suspect a reorg or symbolic display.

---

7. Disappearance of ICE Detainees—New Era of Official “Black Sites”?

Timestamps: 67:10 – 72:52

Reporting

• “Alligator Alcatraz”: About two-thirds of detainees in a notorious ICE holding facility have vanished, and there are no records of transfers or deportations. Families and lawyers can’t find them.

  “There is nothing that prohibits, there’s no limiting principle here on what they’re able to do, which was the same thing we said when people were shipped off to [secret facilities] with no due process.”
  — Emily Jashinsky, (70:16)

Key Takeaway

• Due Process Dangers: Warnings that expanded rights abuses for noncitizens will lay the groundwork for the same tactics to be used against citizens.

• Irony Not Lost: Right-wing “FEMA camp” conspiracies are coming true under the current regime, yet their originators are silent.

  “One of the original radicalizing narratives from the right in the 2000s was that the government was going to build a bunch of FEMA camps...”
  — Ryan Grim, (71:46)

---

Memorable Quotes, Moments, and Tone

• “I think it would be fair to say...at this scale [Microsoft’s move] is unprecedented.”
  — Ryan Grim, (08:58)
• “I think people should care that we don’t know [where the detainees are]...because if it’s antisemitic or material support for terrorism, for example, when a non-citizen does it...why is it not material support for terrorism when a citizen writes an op-ed?”
  — Krystal Ball, (69:21)
• Panel dynamic is sharp, biting, and urgent, with recurring warnings about authoritarianism, the “doom spiral,” and the consequences of establishment hubris.

---

Episode Structure (Timestamps)

• 02:31–13:28: Microsoft/AI/Israel Surveillance
• 16:33–26:49: AIPAC, Genocide, and Political Litmus Tests
• 26:49–29:38: Netanyahu’s UN Speech & Mass Walkout
• 29:39–34:16: Party Leadership, Media Control, The Rise of Populism
• 35:58–58:40: Comey Indictment, “Doom Spiral” Politics, Weaponized DOJ
• 60:18–67:10: Generals’ Mystery Summit
• 67:10–72:52: Missing ICE Detainees & Black Sites

---

Conclusion

This episode is a clarion call about the ongoing collapse of establishment trust and democratic mechanisms—from Big Tech’s complicity, to the corruption of prosecution, to disappearing detainees. The hosts’ relentless skepticism—a trademark Breaking Points blend—warns listeners of a zero-sum, undemocratic future unless the political class reckons with grassroots demands for justice, transparency, and accountability.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[IBM AI Agent Advertiser]

So your AI agents, they make the team that uses them more productive, right? But if they aren't connected to other agents or your data or your existing workflows, how productive can they really make your teams? Any business can add AI agents. IBM connects your agents across your company to change how you do business. Let's create smarter business IBM.

[Mori Hair Care Advertiser]

A life that's carefree needs hair that's worry free. Have both with Mori reduce shedding and thinning in as little as 12 weeks with clinically proven all natural Mori nourishing hair care products. Others containing sulfates, parabens and GMOs can actually weaken your hair over time. You can look great for holiday photos. Still not sure we get it. So right now purchase Mori at 50% off while it lasts and take a quiz for a custom hair care recommendation at m o e r I-e dot results can vary. Mori is not a substitute for medical advice. See website for more Stop settling for.

[LG XBoom Advertiser]

Weak sound It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save [e-mail] with code Fall25. Bring the Boom XBoom.

[Krystal Ball]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Emily Jashinsky]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Hope to see [e-mail] Good morning everybody. Happy Friday. How are my friends here, Ryan, Emily and Griffin doing?

[Ryan Grim]

Doing good to be here.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I felt the need to specify this week because last week there was some confusion whether I was saying good morning to you guys or the audience.

[Ryan Grim]

Good morning to everybody out there also.

[Krystal Ball]

Thank you. I'd like that you went through the whole list too, name by name.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I didn't want anyone to feel unwelcome. Lots of interesting stuff, Griffin. What do we, what all do we have this morning?

[Griffin Davis]

Oh, boy. So we're going to be talking a lot about. We're doing a little victory lap at the top here with Ryan Grimm. Let's just get right to that and then we'll get to the other stories Ryan has been doing, reporting at Dropsite News about Microsoft and Israeli surveillance. And there was a little victory over the last. Some good news for once. So we had this story that Ryan did in drop site a few months ago. The Israeli military is one of Microsoft's top AI customers, leaked documents reveal. And now we've seen that Microsoft, as of, I believe yesterday, is blocking Israel's use of its technology in mass surveillance of Palestinians. Ryan, your reaction?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, and, and we covered this, you know, multiple times on, on the program here too. But the, yeah, the backstory is we were, we got a, a trove of internal documents from Microsoft that showed the amount of work and the type, and the type of work that they were doing for the Israeli Ministry of Defense and, and showed that it skyrocketed after October 7th. And what we did is we reached out to 972, which is the Israeli Palestinian news outlet that had previously done some incredible work on the IDF's use of AI in targeting. Like if you remember, you might remember that story that they did where they exposed this program called Where's Daddy? Where's Daddy? Where they were using AI to try to figure out, you know, who their targets were and then trying to find their, you know, find out when their targets were at home so they could kill them with their families. And this was this 972 story. So reached out to them and in particular, Yuval Abraham, who has, is the Israeli investigative reporter who's done the best work during this genocide is all. He was also, if you remember, one of the leading people involved with no Other land that, that won the, that won the Oscar. A lot of good it did them because they've continued to, you know, slaughter people at that, you know, at the site of the, the setting of that.

[Griffin Davis]

Documentary and attack the filmmakers.

[Ryan Grim]

And attack the filmmakers. We also brought in the Guardian, which still has this, which still has an international reach. And so collectively we published these documents in January of 2023, 2025. And subsequently Yuval did some deeper reporting with his sources in Israel, exposing more specifically, you know, what precisely Microsoft's technology was being used for. Because what we could tell is that this Azure, this cloud computing software was being used at a extraordinary scale. But the contracts and the documents and internal, internal Stuff didn't show exactly what was going on. One of the things that it was clearly being used for was illegal by any stretch, surveillance of, of Palestinians. And that surveillance was then being, you know, coupled with AI being used for targeting. And to say, to use the word targeting almost doesn't make sense. If you look at Gaza right now, it doesn't look like anything was targeted at all. Like the entire thing is just, you know, completely annihilated. The real credit to me belongs to Microsoft employees, not only for providing the information to the public, but also as we've covered here as well, they were routinely protesting at like, you know, major company events. And every time they would do that, that's not cost free. Like you're fired. Like these people, you know, most of the people I think that did organizing around this for Microsoft, you know, have been, have been fired. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And fired into a very bleak tech job market right now. Yeah, so true. Putting them, putting them, putting their jobs on the line there. Yet they, they've now been vindicated. Now we're going to continue following this because Microsoft exclusively gave the news to the Guardian, which, because, you know, the Guardian was one of these outlets that has been reporting on this. What that, what that tells you is that Microsoft's PR strategy is they want to tell the Guardian, they want to tell the critics. Okay, we're hearing you, we're responding to this. What actually happens after this is something we're going to have to continue following up and we'll continue working our sources to figure this out. But you know, Israel's reaction is suggestive. Like they, you know, they're, they're livid that they're being told that they can't use this Microsoft technology anymore, you know, for, you know, this, this what, what Microsoft is saying is, you know, against the rules. And was, was done surreptitiously, was, was done duplicitously. Whether Microsoft actually was okay with it, like all of this continues to need investigation, but it does show that there is still an ability to, you know, publicly shame these major corporations into backing off of their, their complicity here.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, BCG also comes to mind. You know, it was revealed their role with ghf and they felt the need.

[Ryan Grim]

They torched their reputation. Yeah.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But you know, again, once that came to light, they felt the need to do at least something to distance themselves from that. Ryan, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the first major tech company to basically say no we don't want to be part of this. We're not going to be involved. And then the other thing I wanted to ask you about is it seems like there's a bit of a tipping point in terms of public sort of social and cultural pressure on Israel. We can talk about, like, the football league. They might be kicked out of, they might be kicked out of Eurovision. We talked yesterday about how Spain and Italy, and now you have additional countries besides saying, listen, we're actually going to protect this flotilla. We're not going to let you just like, murder our citizens that are on this aid boat brazenly at sea. But then again, I have felt those glimmers of hope and like, oh, the, you know, this must be. There must be some ratcheting up of pressure and some sort of endpoint that that's coming before. So how do you think about those things?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, there, there, there's been some pressure on tech platforms before and some elements there, there have been some small wins before. I, I would say it is, it is fair to, are the, the biggest victory on, in, on this front to say, like, Microsoft is, you know, one of the giants now. They're still Oracle, they're still, you know, they're, they're, they have places that they can go to do this work, but every time, every time the, their universe shrinks a little bit, it, it comes with a cost, you know. So, yes, I think, like, this is, like, I think it would be fair to say that at, at this scale, it is unprecedented. And you're right, it comes at the same time that they're, you know, Israel is being threatened to be kicked out of the, you know, what's your European soccer. And there was this attempt this week by Israeli media to say that the United States had stepped in to protect them and that they were not. There was not going to be a vote and they're not going to be kicked out of the European soccer league. That turned out apparently to be a bit of a misdirection, that. An attempt to, like, get activist pressure away to, to basically demoralize the people that were involved and were putting pressure on all of the European governments to say, we don't want these, want this genocidal country playing in our soccer league, in our football league. And so, you know, that, that still seems like it's happening. Like you said, Eurovision and, you know, Italy and Spain, you know, sending ships, they're saying they're, they're there to not, not to militarily engage the Israeli drones, but to, you know, Rescue people if, if the ships are sunk. But still, any action at all is, is. Is something new on the scene.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, in Italy is particularly interesting because it's not like Melonia is like a big pro Palestine lefty.

[Ryan Grim]

She, she attacked the flotilla wall. The ship is going well, also physically, yes. Right.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Verbally, it's important to specify these things at this point. But in any case, yeah, she was like attacking the flotilla and saying, I don't think you should be doing this, but at the same time announcing they're going to send an Italian naval vessel to, you know, help, I guess, rescue in the event that such a thing is needed. And then you also had the pressure from the Italian population. There was a general strike. You've got dock workers. You're saying, we're not going to be involved in, you know, facilitating the shipment of these weapons to Israel. So, you know, at least one government there feeling compelled very much against what she would want to do to, to take action here.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, they had like 300,000 people in the streets or something supporting the dock workers. And the Genoa port is one of the most crucial in Europe. So it really shows, it kind of shows how little in some ways politicians matter because you've got this melonious far right and lockstep ironclad supporter of Israel, yet they're the ones. They're one of the two sending out help because their population is demanding it.

[Krystal Ball]

The other interesting element that I was thinking of, too, is this comes at a time when Microsoft is actually trying pretty hard to be in the good graces of the Trump administration. So I have to imagine that was an interesting factor in the politics of the decision, too.

[Ryan Grim]

Ryan, that's an interesting point. In the past, even if a tech company. That's a very good point. Even if a tech company felt like, okay, they lied to us, they bought these products, told us they were going to use it just for storing whatever data that they're legally allowed to, and instead they used it to, you know, scoop up data on every single Palestinian then and then target them. They would say, well, we would like to, you know, enforce our terms of service and have some integrity here, but the US Is, is going to punish us if we, if we punish Israel. So Microsoft clearly made the calculation that they are in a. That we are now in a political era where they can be on the wrong side of Israel and it will not bring them so much heat in the United States that it's not worth doing. Which is, that's, that is. That is an interesting window into this moment.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, the other thing is, I mean, Netanyahu's in New York right now. This may be his last trip to New York for quite a while, given that Zoran Mamdani is about to be elected on, in part on a platform of arresting his ass if he comes back to New York City. So. And he's got huge protests outside of his hotel as well. Just in flying to New York, he had to take a somewhat like, circuitous route with his plane because there's certain airspace that he feels he cannot fly over anymore because he is a wanted, you know, you know, indicted criminal from the, the icc. So. So, yeah, I guess I said should say fugitive since he hasn't been officially found guilty. But in any case, I, I just, I don't know, it feels, I don't know enough to say. But my sense is that some of these cultural pieces, like the, the sense that Israelis can't travel abroad for their vacation and not face scrutiny. The sense that, you know, IDF soldiers can't just brazenly post war crimes and think that that's going to be okay and they can just travel around the world and no one's going to care. The sense that, you know, okay, Eurovision doesn't want us anymore. We can't, you know, our soccer team can't compete in this European league anymore. I mean, I, I have to think that those sorts of things land with the Israeli public in terms of the way that they're being ostracized in the world. Now. I, I know a lot of the response is, well, all these people are anti Semitic and we're, we're the perpetual victim and they're just being unfair because we're the only Jewish state, et cetera. But I do have to think that that has a sort of like, impact on the cultural psyche. For sure.

[Mori Hair Care Advertiser]

A life that's carefree needs hair that's worry free. Have both with Mori, reduce shedding and thinning in as little as 12 weeks with clinically proven all natural Mori nourishing hair care products. Others containing sulfates, parabens and GMOs can actually weaken your hair over time. You can look great for holiday photos. Still not sure we get it. So right now purchase Mori at 50% off while it lasts and take a quiz for a custom hair care recommendation at M O e r I e com. Results can vary. Mori is not a substitute for medical advice. See website for more.

[IBM AI Agent Advertiser]

If you're waiting for your AI to turn into ROI and wondering how long you have to wait, maybe you need to do more than wait. Any business can use AI. IBM helps you use AI to change how you do business. Lets create smile to business. IBM.

[LG XBoom Advertiser]

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save [e-mail] with code fall25. Bring the boom XBoom.

[Griffin Davis]

Well, speaking of cultural psyche shifting, we gotta light it up early in the show here with a little I've had it clip. You know, my girl Jennifer grilled Jeff Duncan over APAC money and you know, I've had it girls, they keep slipping into these situations where people think they're going to get softball interviews from them and then are sorely, sorely mistaken. Let's take a little listen here.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Will you take APAC money or have you taken APAC money?

[Ryan Grim]

I'm not certain if I've taken it or not. I've run. I've been in office 10 years. It doesn't jump out at me as I'm taking it. But I think the most important part.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Will you.

[Ryan Grim]

I have no idea. I haven't even thought about it.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Okay.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Come on, Jeff. This is like there's a genocide going on right now. And I mean in even human rights, Israeli human rights groups see this, that the United States of America.

[Ryan Grim]

To see these kids starving and to.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Not know if you're going to be beholden to the Israeli lobby is to me, is not something that should take time to think about. Because you started off this interview with us talking about your faith. Will you take APAC money in this, in this race?

[Ryan Grim]

I have no idea. I haven't even thought about it. Wow.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Okay. I want to take that moral clarity that you have right there. Ask you again, are you going to take money from AIPAC? Because just there you talked about an APAC is what helped. They gave Trump over, I think, 200, $300 million. Are you going to take money from a group that lobbies to deny that's happening to those children?

[Ryan Grim]

I'm not going to give you the shallow answer of saying yes or no.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Because you can have moral clarity.

[Emily Jashinsky]

The shallow answer and the genocide.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Then it's a very easy jump to then just say across the board. You wouldn't believe how popular you'd be, Jeff.

[Emily Jashinsky]

If you said I am not.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Taking money from a package.

[Griffin Davis]

Jeff, I'm in your corner. We're trying to help you here.

[Ryan Grim]

And she is like, she, she. She authentically is in his corner. Like, she wants. She. She thinks he should do this. She wants him to do this.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. I don't think she.

[Ryan Grim]

That's intense.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I don't think she'd mind me saying I was messaging with her this morning. And you're right, Ryan. She's like this guy. You know, Jennifer is not like a leftist. You know, she's like a Bernie. She's pragmatic. You know, she lives in this very red state. She feels the impact of Republican policies are devastating for people in her state, in her community, where she lives. And so she's, you know, she's not a purity tester, but she's like, dude, we all love you. This. I don't know if you guys know this guy. I'm actually not that familiar with him. He's lieutenant governor of Georgia, was a Republican. He's now switched parties. He's running for governor. He was previously a member of the House. And so in any case, you know, he's got the story of sort of like, waking up and coming to see the light and something that Democrats would love to rally around. But I think a lot of Democrats still don't realize that this is a moral litmus test, that it is a, you know, basic question of whether you have any decency in principles, and that there is no way to take, like, a moderate position on a genocide, which is what he and Alyssa Slotkin and many others besides are trying to find their way towards.

[Griffin Davis]

Or even more importantly, like the fact that you can't have moral clarity on any issue. Like, people aren't going to stand to listen about your moral grandstanding on other issues when you still have to think about this one a lot.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Right. And the bullshit of, Sorry, I'm just, oh, no, like, oh, I don't remember if I took APAC money, I'd have to check. It doesn't jump out at me. Okay, well, will you say you won't take it anymore? I don't know. Maybe it's like, okay, yes or no. Like, if you're going to be John Fetterman, be John Fetterman. But don't try to pretend like you care about these kids. And you're so, you know, your faith is informing, informing you, and you're so morally righteous when you can't even ask. Answer a basic question about the way you're going to approach your campaign and who you're going to ally yourself with.

[Krystal Ball]

What? Think about the, like, establishment Democratic Party leaders who want the best for this guy. Right. Like, they want this guy to be their thing because he's former Republican. They see the potential of a red state, red state former Republican being super helpful for Democrats. They aren't prepping him for this because they don't know how serious it is for people like Jennifer Welch, who is a normie, fairly normie, kind of Dem target voter, actually. That's crazy that he wasn't prepared for this question. Like that, to me, is part of this, part of this that is like, as it does remind me a little bit of like Tea Party years. I'm a broken record on this. But you'd have these candidates who go into a friendly, like, Tea Party, I don't know, radio host, local radio host, and say, do you stand with Ted Cruz shutting down the government? Well, I don't know. And then just get absolutely torched. I can't believe that he, whoever is handling him. And I guarantee you there are very powerful Democrats with big interests in his campaign. Let him go on that interview like that.

[Ryan Grim]

And my only defense of him now, I think that, yeah, his operatives are clearly not watching this podcast very closely because you could have known that this.

[Krystal Ball]

Was the public sentiment, though. Like, that's what's crazy.

[Ryan Grim]

Like, he is running for governor of Georgia. So if I were him and I didn't want to answer the question, I'd be like, look, I'm running for governor of Georgia. What does that have to do with this?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And then also he could just be like, yeah, sure, because also you could be weaseling, like, I'm not going to take APAC money. And by. And by that, you would mean directly from their, like, political action committee or let their super PAC support, which. And their super PAC's not supporting him anyway, so it's easy. And then some APAC donors would give to him and be like, well, those are just people who they've given to the Sierra Club too.

[Emily Jashinsky]

People.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, they're just. I disagree with him on this, but I.

[Emily Jashinsky]

He's afraid that, like, the thing is that it wouldn't be honest to say that that has nothing to do with this. Because, I mean, clearly he's afraid of getting crosswise with AIPAC and doesn't think that those individual donor checks are going to come in if he says he won't take AIPAC money.

[Ryan Grim]

Exactly.

[Emily Jashinsky]

So that's the reason he gets wrapped around the axle of this thing. Because, yeah, he would love to do a wink and a nod and be, oh yeah, sure, I'm not taking APAC and privately message A back and be like, don't worry. But they demand such total and complete loyalty that if you aren't publicly in every way backing them up, they're not going to be there for you. And they may well spend, you know, money against you.

[Krystal Ball]

In no, you're an anti Semite. It's not.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Or you're an anti Semite. That too. Yes, exactly.

[Griffin Davis]

Emily, will you, will there be that on the right? Will you, will, will we ever see this happen on the right where like right, right. Podcasters are pressuring Republican politicians about aipac or even like not a podcaster, but maybe like a kid at a town hall or something?

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely. I mean we saw Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson's interview from just a few months ago. So it's not going to be everyone for sure, but there will be some places that you wander into as a candidate or yeah, like kids at town hall, like students at town halls. And Ryan's point about running for governor of Georgia is such an interesting one because the Democratic base right now is so completely divorced from the Democratic. I don't know, like the potential swing voter, like a potential Republican swing voter who like doesn't, probably doesn't think about Israel a lot, generally is favorable to Israel might not even be tapped into this conversation about aipac. And so you know, that Dem leadership is trying to figure out what to do with this puzzle because their, their own voters care so much about this and are in like, they, they have such a sense of moral clarity on their end about what they want to happen. And then you like, it's, they're stuck with this position of balancing because they've half assed it for however many years now, a couple of years since October 7th.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I just think they've gaslight gaslit themselves into thinking that it's actually not that important. And you know, like, you hear this talking point from them all the time. They'll say, we heard this again from Slotkin. What they'll say like, well, why weren't those protesters? Why aren't they protesting Trump? Why are they only protesting Democrats? Which is A, not true and B, like they're part of your coalition. So it makes sense they'd be pressuring you more. And it makes sense that maybe they'd have higher expectations for you than Trump.

[Griffin Davis]

Yeah, but and see, they're deporting people like, yeah, I mean people off the street.

[Emily Jashinsky]

A literal authoritarian crackdown. If you dare speak Out. So, yeah, great point, Griffin, but the insinuation is meant to be basically like, oh, well, these are all just Trump voters anyway, so we don't really have to pay attention to them. Like, it's their fault that, you know, they. It's their fault that we lost, but also they were never going to vote for us anyway. And so I think that they've really gaslit themselves into thinking that this isn't a political problem for them. And I don't know how you can sustain that view. When you see what's happening with Zoran in New York, when you see what's happening with Graham Platner in Maine, like, this guy just literally comes out of nowhere, no elected position, and is now, you know, garnering thousands of people coming to his events and all of this energy. And, you know, certainly they're trying to get Janet Mills, who's the sitting governor, into the race. It's not going to be a sure thing for her whatsoever that she wins in the Democratic primary because he's been willing to be so incredibly morally clear. So, yeah, I mean, they're so far behind still trying to find a way to, like, how can we massage our position? How can we find some moderate path that's going to please both sides? And it's like, first of all, in the Democratic Party, in terms of the base, there is no both sides. Like, basically the whole party is now like, it's a genocide. We need to cut off weapons. What is wrong with you? This is a moral and complete atrocity. It's one of the greatest crimes of our time. And they still seem to think that there's, you know, within their own coalition, their attention. Great tension exists. That doesn't. The only place that tension exists is on their donor phone calls, which is why you see the result that you do.

[Griffin Davis]

My final question, speaking at the un.

[Ryan Grim]

Apparently he got booed as he came out here, and I guess a bunch of people got escorted out. This is not, this is not normal. Unless the UN is a pretty staid, like, like very, you know, protocol oriented, civility oriented. Oh, yeah, he's so. He's, he's, he's speaking now because they're.

[Griffin Davis]

Asking for people just listening. People are being escorted out. Some people are applauding. Some people are look confused.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, he's got a walking out. He's got another map.

[Griffin Davis]

He's got props. Oh, this one's called the Curse. Just in time for Halloween.

[Ryan Grim]

Pointing at all the people he doesn't like. I guess.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the Nathan Fielder show promo.

[Griffin Davis]

Yep, exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

The Assad regime.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Oh, he's bragging about.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, he's bragging about all the people he got rid of.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Assassinations. Great.

[Ryan Grim]

Gone.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And there's a. Also a battle.

[Ryan Grim]

Iraq. Yes. Good for him. Yes, he talked us into going into Iraq. Is he really bragging about that?

[Griffin Davis]

I'm glad he's taking credit for that one.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Incredible.

[Krystal Ball]

Also be gone.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Battle. Battle raging in the, in the chat there, the live chat. Military commander.

[Krystal Ball]

Should we, should we jump in as breaking points Scientists.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, they're gone too.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Oh, some atomic bomb scientists.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes. Yes, they did kill scientists. That's true. Israel's 12 day war with Iran. Anyway, so we'll have more, I guess, Monday, right, from that speech.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well, we can, we can react in the premium half too, because it'll probably be wrapped up by the time we get there.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, yeah. If there's anything big that comes.

[Griffin Davis]

My final question before we move on is how long is Jennifer gonna keep getting these interviews? You know, I feel like we had a moment with the Alyssa Slotkin thing and now, you know, I'm not gonna name names, but behind the scenes I've been trying to reach out to a lot of other politicians of similar level and getting ghosted. So what do you, what do y' all think? You know, because Jennifer seems like a safe podcast for Dems to do if they don't do a lot of research, like Ryan mentioned.

[Ryan Grim]

There's another good one for you.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, my God.

[Emily Jashinsky]

There he's. This is, this is holding up a placard that says who shouts death to America? And then it's a multiple choice question. A is Iran, B is Hamas, C is Hezbollah, D is the Houthis, and E is all the above.

[Krystal Ball]

Who told him that was a good idea?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, actually, this, this flows out of their polling that, that we reported on it drop site. And over here, breaking points that nobody likes them, but people also do not like around the world. They don't like Iran, they don't like Hamas and Hezbollah. And so in a straight one to one comparison between Israel and Hamas or Israel and Iran, Israel actually comes out ahead. So this, this, this looks like it comes straight from the Mark Penn and Anita Dunn polling operation. Yeah.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Oh, wow. Incredible. Incredible.

[Ryan Grim]

Great, great work there. Anyway, sorry, you were saying?

[Griffin Davis]

Oh, no, just return to my question. You know, do you think Jennifer is going to keep getting these interviews with Democratic leadership? I know she's doing a talk with Kamala Harris for her book tour coming up soon.

[Emily Jashinsky]

No. They've got a whole chorus network of creators that they can feel comfortable going on their platforms that are, you know, approved and unlikely to ask them difficult questions.

[Ryan Grim]

So the, the problem though is that, you know, the people aren't necessarily going to be listening to the chorus if the chorus doesn't follow what people want to hear sung. And so if they want audience, they're going to have to come to people like her and us.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

At some point.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I mean, because they can't make their own.

[Ryan Grim]

They're trying very hard to make their own thing and it's not going to happen.

[Emily Jashinsky]

It's not working. Yeah, Ken loves to post the, like, I guess the DNC started like a YouTube, like a podcast, and he loves to post the views. It's like, you know, they got 102 views this time. Way to go. You know, so no, they, they have this idea that they can have this top down level of control and never face a difficult question and that if they just throw some money behind it and some organization, then they're going to end up with like the next Joe Rogan or whatever. And, you know, if they, like, I guess at some point maybe they're going to realize that that doesn't work. But the people who are at the top of the party, the Keem Jeffries, the Chuck Schumers of the world, they're just the, the environment they came up in, the skills and traits that they were selected for, have nothing to do with like going on a podcast and having a difficult conversation and saying something controversial. Getting out there in the mix and fighting like, that's just not what these people will ever do. They're not designed to do that. Right. And so I don't think that until you have a complete upending of the current party structure and new leadership, will they actually realize. Because the other thing is with these people, like, I think they would rather have Trump and the Republicans in power than give up their own grip on power as well. And, you know, so, and they feel like. So in any case, I don't see it happening until you have a complete switch in Democratic Party leadership, which may be coming. I mean, you. I saw an article, I wish I remember the numbers, but I think it was Politico went out and asked a bunch of Democratic Senate candidates, hey, are you going to support Chuck Schumer for majority leader or, you know, for leader of the party if you guys are still in the minority? And basically none of them would say yes, some of them were overt. A few, not that many, but a few were overt. Like, absolutely not. And most of Them are just like, yeah, we'll see who's in the race. I don't know. So, you know, some kind of reckoning is going to come at some point.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes. And they're only hurting themselves because what happens when you resist your own voters and your grassroots especially, but basically their own voters are on the same page about this right now. When you do that, you end up with Trump. That sounds crazy, but this is exactly what happened in the Republican Party where the leadership was brushing off the base and the grassroots and they had this primary of who they thought was the very best talent in the Republican Party like that in generations. They felt like was the buffet of generational Republican talent in 2016. And Trump came in and smashed it to bits and completely shattered the illusion because all of those generational talents had been, I mean, other than like maybe Ted Cruz. But even he by that point had sort of gotten on, gotten with the program. That's what happens when you reject your vote. Someone, they're going to get more populism. They're only hurting themselves. They're only undermining Chuck Schumer's future and longevity or the Chuck Schumer replacements. Longevity. Because something will burst. You will have someone, you will have a populist who comes in and actually puts a lie to their power and destroys everything in a way that hasn't happened yet.

[Griffin Davis]

Yep, that's right. So Democrats, Jennifer and pumps, they're trying to help you. You just gotta let it in. Okay, let me help you help me help you.

[Mori Hair Care Advertiser]

A life that's carefree needs hair that's worry free. Have both with Mori, reduce shedding and thinning in as little as 12 weeks with clinically proven all natural Mori nourishing hair care products. Others containing sulfates, parabens and GMOs can actually weaken your hair over time. You can look great for holiday photos. Still not sure we get it. So right now, purchase Mori at 50% off while it lasts and take a quiz for a custom hair care recommendation at M o e r I-e.com results can vary. Mori is not a substitute for medical advice. See website for more.

[IBM AI Agent Advertiser]

So your AI agents, they make the team that uses them more productive, right? But if they aren't connected to other agents or your data or your existing workflows, how productive can they really make your teams? Any business can add AI agents. IBM connects your agents across your company to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to business. IBM.

[LG XBoom Advertiser (Repeated)]

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game. And bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because, let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom. And for a limited time, save [e-mail] with code fall25. Bring the boom XBoom.

[Griffin Davis]

So let's move on. We gotta talk about this James Comey thing. This is a comedy of errors, perhaps. Let's listen to a little bit of the induction indictment on James Comey here and his reaction. And then we'll. We'll break it down a little bit.

[Ryan Grim]

For you, my family, for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump. But we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees. And you shouldn't either. Somebody that I love dearly recently said that fear is the tool of a tyrant. And she's right. But I'm not afraid. And I hope you're not either. I hope instead you are engaged, you are paying attention, and you will vote like your beloved country depends upon it.

[Griffin Davis]

All right, so that's a little.

[Krystal Ball]

Can we pause right there? Did you do we think. I think he might have a little Botox.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I was gonna comment. He looks good. It could also just be a good ring light. Also possible lighting does a lot for you, but.

[Krystal Ball]

But that I assume was taken from his substack. Griffin.

[Griffin Davis]

I'm not sure where it came from. I just get my Comey alerts directly sent to me on Google Alerts. But.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, he likes to. So he has a substack and he likes to post these vertical videos. And you may remember the Taylor Swift video that he posted. So it's. This is. This is how James Comey speaks to the public now.

[Griffin Davis]

Okay, so this was his second substack.

[Emily Jashinsky]

But I did see it on Twitter.

[Griffin Davis]

Emily, can you explain for us in the audience, like, what. What is this indictment? What is he being indicted for? And what is this original rivalry? In case people forget, if we can go back through the. The annals of history, what's this beef about?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, so this is going to be about lying to Congress. So it's going to be a perjury charge. He testified to Congress five years ago on September 30, which is why these charges had to come down quickly. That's why Trump was sort of accidentally posting his DMs to Pam Bondi. I still don't know whether that was an accident or Intentional. But because that September 30, 2020 testimony is where he said that he, quote, had not authorized someone else to be an anonymous source in news reports, the indictment says that statement was false. So the bar for actually getting conviction on this charge is going to be really high because you have to prove that he knowingly lied to Congress. And that involves some measure of mind reading, unless you have, like, just incontrovertible evidence, which they may have in this case because there is a document trail with Russiagate. But Comey was. Comey was shopping around information about the Russia collusion hoax. There's a decent bit of evidence. It was in the Inspector General Michael Horowitz's report. There was pretty decent evidence that Comey was part of getting this information to the media. He's going to have great attorneys and can parse this in different ways, whether he was technically the one who leaked or whether he did it through a conduit, which we have pretty good evidence that he was doing. But that's where the, the, the origins of this are. Comey was shopping information to the media to sort of prime the pump, as everyone was saying. Was Donald Trump in bed with Putin? Was he in bed with Russia? Hillary Clinton was making some of these claims. Comey was giving little tidbits, dishing out little tidbits, and the FBI was dishing out little tidbits to the media, basically suggesting that they were working on this because they were actually getting some heat from Hillary Clinton. Remember the beef between Comey and Clinton because of those charges that were dropped late in 2016, late October 2016. So all that is to say, also, Comey didn't indict Hillary Clinton, but didn't charge Hillary Clinton with the email after the email investigation. So he was trying to basically suggest to the public, we've got something. We're on it. And Trump kept coming on, and then it all exploded. And here we are today.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, well, I think it's just important to zoom out. While those specifics are significant, and I also want to note that they had to force out another Trump pick to US Attorney and put in this total crony who has never prosecuted a case before in order to move to try to secure this indictment. There was memos from career DOJ prosecutors who said, listen, there's no, this is not going to. You're not going to be able to secure a guilty conviction at trial, so you should not go forward with this. You've had some, at least one resignation also in the wake of these charges moving forward. So There's a lot of indication that this is trumped up that to not intentionally use that pun, but I mean, literally, Donald Trump came out and said, you need to charge this guy. Pam Bondi, like, what are we doing? She was under pressure. There's reporting as well that she was uncomfortable with the case. So listen, I think Comey is an odious figure. I think Comey is a big part of the reason Trump gets elected the first time. I have zero love for this man. This is a bullshit politicized charge. There is no way that if Trump doesn't directly tell the attorney general and his new hand picked crony that they need to charge Comey that he ends up getting indicted. The grand jury indicted him on two of three counts. I think especially given the President's public involvement here. Very likely this thing gets immediately tossed. It's got, it's been assigned to a Biden judge. And you know, this is the sort of thing that in normal times would literally be impeachable. And it's not just Comey either. They're trying to go after Letitia James on some bullshit mortgage fraud charge. They're trying to go after Adam Schiff on the same thing. Trying to go after Lisa Cook on the same thing. It's not like I have particular love for these people. Actually do like Letitia James, but, you know, not a big Adam Schiff fan. Don't really know anything about Lisa Cook in particular. Not a Comey fan. But it is now official the DOJ is just an arm of Trump's weaponization regime. That's what it is. And so however you feel about Comey, we need to acknowledge that this is, this is a, you know, not to say the DOJ has been perfect in the past. There hasn't been this or there hasn't been that. But we have really crossed a threshold here where even any appearance of independence is totally and completely gone.

[Krystal Ball]

I think. Oh, you're. Ryan, go ahead.

[Ryan Grim]

No, just to. The indictment itself is like a page and a half. And the thing they're getting him on is that they say that he told Ted Cruz that he had not, quote, authorized someone else at the FBI to be an anonymous source in news reports regarding an FBI investigation concerning Trump. And basically they're saying that he authorized McCabe to be an anonymous source. And so McCabe, McCabe's testimony on that would be, would be critical or any evidence that they might have that he did authorize McCabe to be a confidential source. So just, just for the details of this indictment, but agree With Crystal's point that the details are, you know, you can get, you can get somebody on mortgage fraud, but you're not actually, if you're not. If you're not actually going after them on mortgage fraud, then, then tangling with the details is kind of playing into their hands.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, my perspective on this is probably a little different from your guys, which is. I think there should be with Comey. Comey is a good example of like, when did we cross the threshold? I think we crossed the threshold, like accelerated with Trump, especially 2.0. I, like, not happy with a lot of the politicization in this case. I look at Comey as someone who arguably started like he. He to me is pretty high up in the candidates for who started us on the do on the doom spiral. And because he was part of weaponizing the FBI to cook up an investigation beyond reasonable bounds against Trump in the Trump campaign and then was leaking to Media. I agree 1000% that this is politicized. I just don't quite agree that it's bullshit because I don't know another way out. I'm not saying that this is a guaranteed way out of the doom spiral, but this man, I think is part of, like, Donald Trump wasn't even president yet, and James Comey was weaponizing the FBI to attack Donald Trump. So I just don't. I think Comey should, Should face consequences. I agree that the charges here are political, and I lament that this is the state of the country. He's not someone I'm particularly like. That's actually of all of the people that I think probably should face consequences. I think he's pre. High up on the list. Now, of course, the process to get from point A to point B, the installment of Lindsay Halligan to Crystal's point, to, to get these charges, all of that I totally understand. But Comey to me is one of these central figures that, that thrust us into this moment.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay. The, the politics too, of. Though I, I've consistently said that for, for January 6th, Trump, you know, Trump came at the system and he missed. And the proper response to that is he should have gone down for that. Like, you come at the system, you come at everything and you miss basically trying to do a coup, you should go down for that the same. You know, I could turn that logic around on Comey. And, you know, Comey came at the King and he missed. And so now he's gonna. Now he's going down for this. Now when it comes to the doom spiral, I think this. There's no question that this further ratchets us closer to a political system that none of us want, where when you lose power, you go to jail. And there are a lot of countries that have systems like that. And prime ministers and lawmakers know that being in politics means that you're going to go to prison sometimes when you're out of power. And that creates that, that is extraordinarily corrosive to this, to civic life. And it ends up consolidating authoritarianism, undermining democratic norms and making it much more of a zero sum game, which then perhaps ironically, like increases a lot of corruption. Because as authoritarianism consolidates, doesn't matter whether you're breaking laws or not. The only thing that matters is whether you're close to the king, close to the, close to the current leader. And so if you're going to jail anyway, like then people just start breaking laws wildly and getting involved in all sorts of illegal activity.

[Emily Jashinsky]

So this is an important point, Ryan, because listen, how many, like we had multiple. We had the John Durham investigation. He recommended no charges against Comey. Right. There's a difference between bad behavior and things that are criminal and illegal is number one. Number two, I mean, if the charges were legitimate, he wouldn't have had to like fire his, push out his own hand picked person in order to secure some sort of a charge, which again is almost certainly going to get immediately thrown out in court. You wouldn't have had to bring in this lady who was like a pageant queen and insurance lawyers never prosecuted a case before. You wouldn't have had to publicly threaten your own attorney general in order to secure these charges. So Ryan, I think your point, you know, January 6th and Comey, whatever, like, it's very intellectual, it's very high minded. But it also ignores the fact that like, it's not just Comey, okay? It's Letitia James, it's Adam Schiff, it's Lisa Cook. It is using the whole of government to go after the media, to go after law firms, to go after universities. Now we've got the entire Democratic Party designated as a terror organization. I mean, guys, when we zoom in too close on these details and start fighting about what Comey said in testimony, Andrew Cabe McCabe contradicted him, blah, blah, blah. We missed the forest for the trees because the authoritarian consolidation of power has been so rapid and so extraordinary and we're living through it in real time in these past couple of weeks. So I find it a little beside the point to argue about what Jim Comey did in fucking 2016.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. But also since that's what the indictment is, the IG looked into this and found that there's no evidence that Comey actually authorized McCabe to leak.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, that's McCabe.

[Ryan Grim]

That McCabe did it on his own and informed Comey later. Allegedly informed Comey later. So I. But I agree that when you're arguing about the details, when the details are not actually like they're going after Comey because Comey went after him. Like, that's it.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. And if it wasn't, if they pull up his mortgage applications or they. His tax filings or whatever, like, let's not be public Pollyanna about what's going on here, guys.

[Krystal Ball]

The. So the point that Ryan was making about how going. Thrusting us further down the pattern of tit for tat retaliation actually can consolidate authoritarian power grabs. That is my argument to people on the right who are like my friends who are absolutely have this bloodlust. Some of them people were like unfairly targeted and all that during this type of investigation. And Trump won. And that's my argument to this. So, like, it's not as though I'm a proponent of doom spiral politics. On the other hand, it's just really hard for me to think of a way for people who are in the FBI or the CIA who have abused their positions and put us in this position. I really, really think that's true. Without the Russia collusion investigation against Donald Trump, I don't know what his first presidency would have looked like. My assumption is that it wouldn't have been he.

[Emily Jashinsky]

There would not have been a first presidency because he would not have gotten elected if Jim Comey didn't come out and do his whole multiple press conference thing. So he should be thanking him.

[Griffin Davis]

You shouldn't be thanking him. Yeah. Why is he so mad at him, Comey?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, because he tried. I mean, and then Trump had, in his inter interim period had all of these bullshit lawsuits thrown at him. So like, this to me, like, I get it, I get it. I just think it's hard for me to imagine Republicans being in this position and not trying to dish out some of what Trump got in the interim period of welfare.

[Griffin Davis]

Yeah, like, so, like.

[Emily Jashinsky]

He tried to coup the government and he got to run. Democrats didn't even get around like, appointing someone to look into it. Like, he, you know, so I'm sorry, like, it's not equivalent whatsoever. Trump tried to steal an election. He ginned up his supporters to storm the Capitol on January 6th. He put together fake slates of electors to try to undermine the whole thing. And then, you know, there was, there was genuine there there with the classified documents that were stored in his bathroom, for example. It's not like this was completely invented. So, you know, we can debate the details. But I don't think that, and here's the other thing, why I have no patience for this argument is Republicans were, oh, we're going to end the weaponization. There's a whole like task force against weaponization. And oh, we're going to be free speech. And then it's like, no, actually we didn't mean any of that shit. Stephen Miller's in charge. Trump is going to threaten Bondi until he basically all of his political opponents are threatened with jail. The entire Democratic Party is going to be classified as a terror organization. If you have any sort of left leaning views, we're going to call you a terrorist. We're going to deport people based on writing essays and op eds. Like, this is not, you know, it's, first of all, it's not remotely equivalent to what was done in the past. And second of all, like, there is no principle here that is justifiable outside of Trump consolidating power and weaponizing the government and trying to secure a total and complete victory over his political opponents. And that's the language they use. Like they think that they, that's what they're going for. And there's a chance they succeed too, by the way. Which is why, you know, I think people should be paying attention to what is unfolding not just with these cases, which is an extraordinary development, but with the universities, with the law firms, with the media, with the, you know, the labeling of vast swaths of Americans as domestic terrorists, with the ICE crackdown of, you know, I just read this morning the 79 year old business owner who had, was thrown to the American citizen, thrown to the ground, ribs cracked, cracked because ICE wanted to go after a few of his employees. Like, what is this is, this is a horror and it's rolling out at a increasingly rapid pace. People need to wrap their heads around where we are right now.

[Griffin Davis]

So I agree with a, if the answer, I'll let you go in a second. But just a question because I agree with what Crystal's saying, but like, maybe this is a stupid question, but let's say Democrats win power, they win 20, 28. Should they not prosecute people like Tom Homan for taking that 50k bribe from the FBI?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Should be prosecute, prosecuted. But that's the thing is like these are fake charges. If Comey did something criminal, you don't think John Durham would have recommended charges against him?

[Krystal Ball]

There is a newly released FBI memo that says Comey also used Richmond. So this is this guy he hired as a liaison to the media. On several occasions, Richmond spoke with the media without consultation with FBI or DOJ's office as a public affair. Like there's, there is pretty.

[Ryan Grim]

But even, but even that, but even that didn't wind up in this indictment, which.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

It's not going to be flimsy.

[Krystal Ball]

That is, it's, it doesn't meet the legal threshold. I'm just saying, I think it's pretty obvious that Comey did lie to Congress. Do I think they're actually going to get a perjury conviction? No.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Lied to Congress like yesterday. I mean, provable way. I mean, 100%. They don't have credibility.

[Krystal Ball]

They don't, it's not like they have sterling credibility to say, to your point, that they're ending the weaponization of government. That is absolutely not true. It's just frustrating from my perspective because there was so much that set the stage for this moment. And I'm a like, throw all the bums out type of person. I think probably all of us are like, Crystal just said, crimes, criminals should be convicted. I agree with that. And the Trump administration, if they were really ending the weaponization of government, would go after people on the right who weaponized the government and would go after people on the right who were abusing power and they wouldn't be doing it themselves. Completely agree with that. It's what terrifies me about this moment in politics. So I don't disagree with any of that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I just think, call me. And it's not only that. It's not only the prosecution of political enemies. It's also the pardoning of all of the January Sixers, for example, of all of these white collar criminals, of all these crypto fraudsters who are just directly bribing the Trump administration in order to get their charges dropped or their investigations dropped or whatever. So, I mean, this is the system we have now. It's not, it's completely overt. And, and just to quickly go back to, to Griffin's point about, like the midterms in 2028, I don't know why people are so confident that we're going to have anything approaching, like, meaning, here's I, I sketch out the scenario before and I think this is the direction we're heading. Let's say Democrats, you know, are able to overcome the, the gerrymandering whatever else is thrown at them, they win the House in the midterm. You think Trump's going to accept those election results? I mean, what, what is, what is going to happen? Go ahead.

[Ryan Grim]

The reason, I think, the reason I think he would is because I think Republicans would actually be. Feel like they're better off with Democrats in control of the House so that he can blame them for things. And he's not going to want them.

[Emily Jashinsky]

To have, like, subpoena power or whatever. I mean, it seems pretty clear that he does not want.

[Ryan Grim]

They're going to ignore the, they're going to ignore the subpoenas. There is no subpoena power anymore.

[Griffin Davis]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Grim]

Like his federal agents won't enforce the subpoenas.

[Krystal Ball]

People ask me why I don't support Trump. And this is maybe one of the biggest concerns there. There are obviously many. And there are also obviously things we could talk about. But, like, this is what happened, we think about January 6th, but what happened after the election, in 2020, after November 2022, January 6th was completely reckless and was something that thrust us even further down the doom spiral. And it was, I think, horrifying. So I think the right underestimates the extent to which Donald Trump will continue playing with fire. That's actually how Ben Sasse phrased it after January 6, that Trump had been playing with fire. Completely agree with it. I think people on the right underestimate the extent to which that's happening or that could happen again. So, like, I share a lot of these concerns. I get it. I just like it. I don't know if the Democratic Party fully appreciates the extent to which. And I think sometimes there's a problem with the media, the extent to which, for example, with the January Sixers, like, there were people who had their homes raided by the FBI who did, were not even in the vicinity of going into the Capitol on January 6th. Like, the FBI was weaponized, and some people who didn't do anything wrong were caught up in that process. So that set the stage for Trump to come in and hit back. So I, if I were like, Griffin's question is such an interesting one, because if I were a Democrat who was worried about weaponization of government going into another Democratic presidency or Democratic midterm, then the question is, well, our base is really going to want Tom Homan, for example, to be prosecuted and we need to get out of the doom spiral. Like, Chris Murphy is talking about this. He's saying we have to fight fire with fire. That clip of him that is exactly what even like mainstream Republicans were talking like in 2023 before Trump won again. That could have been. I actually thought about as a, as an experiment, clipping that or posting the transcript of that on X and be like, who said this? Ted Cruz or Chris Murphy? Because it was so similar. So I don't have a good answer to how we get out of this. But it's also, I think to some extent people like Chris Murphy, Adam Schiff, James Comey have to take responsibility for their role in it. Not a fan of cooking up charges. I do think James Comey lied to Congress. So that's sort of where I land on this right now.

[Emily Jashinsky]

All right, one last thing on the midterms piece. I mean, what you're sketching out is effectively another path to just like the elections not really existing. You're just like, yeah, they'll let the Democrats take their seats, but then they just won't get to do anything. They'll just be like, you know, so it's the same thing. Now I do, I still think there is a very strong chance because he's rhetorically setting up that he just denies the election results that they, you know, they have consolidated like the courts, the Supreme Court goes along with whatever they want that they'll gin up some, oh, mail in ballots were fake and there's no way Democrats could win. And they're providing material support to tear whatever. They'll come up with something and then have their own separate, you know, Republicans who, they claim one that they basically just pretend like this is the, the House majority and these are the rightful members of Congress. And you know, if that happens and you've got some significant portion of some 35 or whatever the country that believes that, you know, I, I don't know, I don't know what happens then. But it is absolutely possible that they do allow Democrats to take their seats. And then they just literally have zero power. So it is as if it doesn't matter what, who people voted for and what they want to see.

[Ryan Grim]

And the one reason I, the only reason I feel like they might try to hold on to power in the House is so that they can control certification of the election in, you know, January of 2029. Yeah, but I don't, I think so. It's, it's a trade off for them. I think they have to factor in what's more important.

[Griffin Davis]

So we're gonna keep moving. We're cooked.

[Krystal Ball]

We all agree.

[Griffin Davis]

So Emily thinks that line of Congress is a crime. And then Ryan and Crystal believe it's too, it's, it's too flimsy. I think we can all agree that Donald Trump has just created a million James Comeys. Let's, let's move on. We gotta get this in the public half. Speaking of playing with fire, the, the military playboy Pete Hegseth is calling a summit of all of the top generals and admirals around the world for an unspecified meeting that is causing anxiety among the top ranks of the military. He's pulling everyone into Virginia for a big announcement. What are we to make of this?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, anybody got any guesses here what's going on?

[Ryan Grim]

I got no reporting on this.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Probably the weirdest thing about it is that it's so public. Like the Washington Post got a hold of this story. They were the ones that broke it, right. And then they reached out to the Pentagon for comment. You know, news organizations will typically like if they can be shown a justifiable national security concern from publishing information they will withhold. And the Pentagon was like, yeah, no, no comment. Go ahead. So that's what's really weird about it because, you know, having the whole world, including your adversaries, know that you have all of your top military leadership consolidated in this one particular location is, I'm not an expert here, but doesn't seem like the greatest idea. But you know, who, who am I to judge?

[Griffin Davis]

I guess in the Dark Knight Rises, they put all of the cops in the subway tunnels and then Bane traps them in there. So maybe it's a similar situation like this. I don't know. Like, Hegseth seems to really like the camera. He's been making lots of to camera videos. And, and so is this just like, like going to be a big speech about how much he loves his war fighters or is this prepped for some Iran war?

[Ryan Grim]

I don't know.

[Griffin Davis]

Emily or Ryan, what do you make of this?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I would be more concerned, to be quite honest, about Latin America or Mexico because there have been a lot of rumblings of agitation in that sphere. And we've obviously already seen three boat strikes. We've seen there was a story that leaked a couple of weeks ago that there were people, I think it was in the DEA that were agitating for more military involvement in Mexico. Like basically full military involvement in Mexico. And it was the Pentagon people at the Pentagon who shut it down and were like, this is not a good idea. But that honestly is more concerning to me than anything in the Middle east or China. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I could see this being maybe like a Full a meeting to fully declare with the symbolism of the military behind any announcement that this is the regime change of Maduro or whatever. That's, that's just. But everyone I talk to has absolutely no idea what's happening and is like concerned that there's something on the horizon. It could be some type of like larp, obviously, like, hey, here we are, we're making a show of force. But you know, obviously we can't rule anything out. So a lot of talk about Middle East, a lot of talk potentially about China. But I feel like people are underestimating whether this could be something in Latin America too.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I mean, if I had to guess, it's, you know, they've talked a lot about they need to reduce the ranks of generals. If I, if I had to guess there's some sort of a major like leadership reorg thing going on. Does seem like something you could maybe accomplish over zoom or, or signal, since they're partial to signal. Trump is. I saw one report that Trump is supposed to join virtually, so he's supposed to participate as well. So I don't know, it's, you know, the things I read were like, this is not just unusual, it's unprecedented. You're talking about like some 800 people. You're talking about all of the top brass who've been summer summoned to this one location and, and also that they're cool with it. Being known publicly is, I don't know, is just, it's interesting. So something to certainly keep an eye on.

[Krystal Ball]

I didn't know the Trump part of it, but that tells me this is probably not related to a military. Like, like a, a, like a conflict. That sounds more like a big hr.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Like they're gonna do trust falls and a ropes course. That's what they're gonna do.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. You don't, you don't, you don't organize and plot regime change or efforts or, or invasions. Even with like hundreds of people, you would say source who had some insight into it tells me it's quote, it's probably something really mundane and stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a big last minute Trump photo op. No, it's just not. You wouldn't. This isn't how you do a coup or an invasion or a regime change.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I could imagine it being like Trump, like I want to see all my generals, get all my Pete, get all my generals together. I want to see what they look like, you know, like some dumb Trump ego bullshit is probably that. Probably is a pretty good guess. Ryan?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, he wants to see how many women there are and get rid of them because they don't fit the like, stereotype that he likes of his. His like, top brass.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know. I mean, yeah, if I had to guess. Same as Crystal. That's what I would put it as. But it's just odd to me that nobody knows what's going on in D.C. that's unusual.

[Griffin Davis]

So if it were a war with Mexico, like Ryan, what would that even look like?

[Ryan Grim]

Like, that would be a war with Venezuela.

[Griffin Davis]

Venezuela, yeah. So like, is that just like us doing like more. More drone strikes? Would. Would we be deploying people?

[Ryan Grim]

I think that they. I think that they would just bomb Maduro the same way that Netanyahu bombed Nasrallah and bombed Hania and bombed the Hamas offices in Doha.

[Griffin Davis]

And there's New Meta or.

[Krystal Ball]

Or Panama.

[Griffin Davis]

Okay, well, I guess.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't think they can do it. Like the Panama, Panama. They went in with overwhelming force and, you know, drag. Drag Noriega out. I don't.

[Krystal Ball]

What was that one Operation just.

[Ryan Grim]

Cause that sounds right. Operation go get our CIA asset. Like literally, Noriega was a CIA asset for decades for George H.W.

[Krystal Ball]

Bush.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. For the guy that took him out. But you can't do that in Venezuela. Like, it would take six figure plus troop deployments. Like, that's just not happening.

[Griffin Davis]

All right, well, I guess we're all hoping and praying for a LARP at this meeting and then we'll just see what goes on from there. I did want to pull up this story about ice. We've got it here from Democracy now, but it's been reported quite a lot of places that about 2/3 of the detainees at Alligator Alcatraz have completely disappeared. They're not able to find records of these people, where they went from here. And which is leading a lot of people to ask the question, are these just kind of like official US Black sites now?

[Emily Jashinsky]

I mean. Well, I think she must say yes at the moment, since they literally just disappeared these 1200 people. I mean their, their family and friends, their lawyers, nobody can locate them. So they were originally at this facility in horrific conditions. Then they get moved and, you know, they're nowhere to be found. So, yeah, I mean, literally they're. They're just disappeared. And you know, we already had very little info about who was sent to this facility. Of course, as always, we're told it's the worst of the worst. A little bit of information the media could get was that. That was not remotely true. You know, These were, many of them had had no criminal interactions with the law, et cetera. So it's, it's very disturbing and that the government could just like disappear these people and it's barely a blip.

[Griffin Davis]

Emily, what do you make of it? Do you think that they are got put on planes and just didn't get reported or what do you think's going on here?

[Krystal Ball]

You know, I think that's, I think that's probably the case for some of them. I don't know how many of them but I think any time and this is why the seat cut stuff was actually really disturbing because it was, you know, you sort of push the limits. Push the limits. Push the limits of what you can get away with when it comes to non citizens and end up, you know, in crowded news cycles with a bunch of missing detainees. They weren't letting journalists into alligator Alcatraz and that kind of thing is like I can't just chalk it up to that. I think that that is probably what happened because sometimes these cases are genuinely difficult to track. I don't know what proportion of them that's the case for versus what the proportion of people are in random African countries like what Eswatini, that's the Kilmore Abrego Garcia country. So I don't know and I think people should care that we don't know. I don't think it's like a non issue that we don't know just because they're non citizens. Because you know, that's what I've said to again some people who are fine with the Ramesa Oz Turk stuff or even the Mahmoud Khalil stuff, it's that when you are broadening these definitions as it relates to non citizens that can set the stage for the targeting of citizens. Because if it's anti Semitic, if it's anti Semitic or material support for terrorism, for example, when a non citizen does it. Well, why is it not material support for terrorism when a citizen writes an op ed? You know there are like the process matters a lot, right?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. And you know, that's increasingly been the, the asserted view of the administration is those sorts of things do constitute material support for terrorism. And then you know, since we don't actually know all of who was in all Alligator Alcatraz, like I think likely these were all undocumented migrants. But we don't actually know that for sure. And we do know that American citizens have been caught up in ICE raids and detained for a certain amount of time. So you know, even if you don't care if. Which you should. But even if you don't care that migrants are, you know, disappeared by our government and without a trace, there is nothing that prohibits there. There's no limiting principle here on what they're able to do, which was the same thing we said when, you know, people were shipped off to seek out with no due process. Like, the whole point of no due process is there would be no chance to say, hey, I'm an American citizen. I don't deserve to be deported. Like, this is illegal. Which happens when you just. Yeah, yeah. When you completely skip over any sort of due process, any sort of transparency, even at the most base level of like, hey, family, your brother, dad who, uncle whoever has now been moved to this location, then you open up a Pandora's box of endless potential government abuse and horror. And I think that's what's extremely, you know, disconcerting about what we're seeing here.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And what Griffin referenced was a Miami Herald report from the 16th. So go ahead, Ryan.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, you know, one of the original. And Emily can testify to this. One of the original radicalizing narratives from. From the right in the 2000 was that the government was going to build a bunch of FEMA camps and just round people up and keep them in it. And now we literally have FEMA camps.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. Alex Jones, where are you at, brother?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, come on, man. That's a great question about these fema.

[Griffin Davis]

He's too busy doing, like, a Hitler mustache is what I saw him do yesterday. I don't know if anyone else caught that.

[Krystal Ball]

He's been very busy.

[Griffin Davis]

He's busy. He's busy.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I mean, it is wild, like, not to. Not to harp on Alex Jones here, but come on, like, your whole thing was like, oh, my God, they're gonna surveil us. And now we got Palantir. You know, the FEMA camps thing, it's like, happening and he has nothing to say about it. He's too busy, you know, owning the libs, I guess, is his job now on behalf of the regime.

[Ryan Grim]

It should be his moment instead of the guy doing it.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Ryan Grim]

He was warning that he was going to do it. Actually, we misunderstood. Yeah.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Often misunderstood fellow, actually.

[Griffin Davis]

Yes. Well, I think that'll leave it for us. Here on the public half, we're going to talk more about ice, the ice shooter and JD Vance calling attacks on ice blood libel, as well as a few other stories. We might get into something. Yeah, we'll do some Freddy Debore. We got an article about the extreme acts of public violence is, I believe, what he calls them, spectacular. Spectacular Spectacular razzle dazzle. And then we're gonna talk about maybe a little Peter Thiel, antichrist Sweden. The second half and then we'll do some AMA questions folks. If you want to see the second half of this show, go to breakingpoints.com link is in the video description. You can sign up for a membership, get access to that as well as access to answer asking any of us questions in the weekly AMAs. So we will see you in the.

[Krystal Ball]

Second half of the show. I will be arresting Crystal for weaponization purposes. Citizens arrest.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I mean, I get it. We have to stop the doom loop or whatever. If I have to be the person who stops the doom loop, it's a.

[Krystal Ball]

Fine line and it happens to be Crystal ball.

[Griffin Davis]

That's right. That's right folks. Okay, we'll see you there on the other half. Arrested or not by.

[LG XBoom Advertiser (Repeated)]

Stop Settling for weak sound it's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with The Ultra Durable LG XBoom Portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save 25% at LG.com with code Fall25. Bring the Boom X Boom.

[Jennifer Rubin]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Top of it all?

[Jennifer Rubin]

Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

[LG XBoom Advertiser]

Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Jennifer Rubin]

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co Editor in Chief Cynthia.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Littleton, the only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Jennifer Rubin]

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety and listen. Now.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

Let'S be real. Life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep [e-mail] Starting at just 600, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry Free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Neat flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your sofa space whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save that's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.