9/4/25: Trump Plot To Crush Zohran, Venezuela Regime Change, Tim Dillon Defends Saudi Cash Grab

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: 9/4/25 — Trump Plot To Crush Zohran, Venezuela Regime Change, Tim Dillon Defends Saudi Cash Grab
Date: September 4, 2025
Podcast: Breaking Points
Hosts: Krystal Ball & Saagar Enjeti

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Overview

In this episode, Krystal and Sagar tackle three major topics shaping American politics and culture:

1. The attempts by Donald Trump and billionaire interests to sway the New York City mayoral race against progressive candidate Zoran Mamdani,
2. Controversial US military actions in Venezuela and the broader push for regime change,
3. The ethical questions raised as top comedians, including Tim Dillon, perform at Saudi Arabia’s cash-rich comedy festival – and his unapologetic rationale for “looking the other way.”

The discussion weaves in themes of political cynicism, moral decline, collective action, and the challenges facing anyone trying to push against entrenched power and cultural decay.

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1. Trump Attempts to Derail Zoran Mamdani in NYC Mayoral Race

The Plot and Power Play (02:37–13:00)

Key Points:

• Zoran Mamdani's Meteoric Rise:
  Zoran has re-energized leftist politics in NYC, winning the Democratic primary “by like 20 points” and mobilizing young voters.

  “He totally remade the electorate... young people who were inspired by what he had going on.” — Krystal (02:49)

• Establishment Panic:
  Former governor Andrew Cuomo refuses to concede and re-enters the race, joined by scandal-ridden Mayor Eric Adams and Republican Curtis Sliwa.
• Trump’s Interference:
  Trump is actively maneuvering to benefit Cuomo, with reports that his advisers offered Adams a federal job if he quits.

  “It’s pretty wild, Sagar, to see Trump trying to get directly involved and really putting some [weight] on the scales. And this is the strange bedfellows thing for Andrew Cuomo...” — Krystal (05:17)

Notable Quotes & Commentary:

• On Adams and Sliwa:
  “Sliwa has come out and said, absolutely not. I’m here for New York. I don’t want a job in the Trump administration.” — Krystal (05:50)
• The ‘Cuomo–Trump’ Alliance:

  “It just shows you how much of [Cuomo’s] posturing as some great anti-Trump resistance figure was total and complete bullshit.” — Krystal (06:22)

• Political Strategy Skepticism:
  “If Zoron winning and being a disaster would be good for... for Trump, so you would actually want him to win. It’s like an accelerationist philosophy...” — Sagar (06:26)
  “In a democratic environment right now, you don’t want nothing to do with Donald Trump.” — Sagar (07:17)

Democratic Party Turmoil (09:20–13:00)

• Establishment Still Resists Mamdani:
  Despite his success, Democratic leaders like Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer withhold support.
• Party Splintering:
  Congressman Tom Suozzi bluntly states, “Zoran Mamdani and other Democratic socialists should create their own party.” (10:31)
• On Party Realignment:

  “I kind of agree with him... I would like to see more political parties because... Primaries are very useful for this purpose because you can eventually take over a party.” — Sagar (11:11)

• Zoran as Outsider:
  The success of candidates like Zoran (and previously Bernie Sanders) reflects broad dissatisfaction with political norms.

  “That’s why Zoran is popular. Because he doesn’t seem like a politician.” — Sagar (12:24)

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2. US Strike on Venezuela & Regime Change Fears

Interview with Juan David Rojas (15:14–30:28)

Background:

• The Trump administration conducted a strike on a boat it claims belonged to the Tren de Aragua drug cartel, designating it as “narco-terrorists” but releasing no evidence.
• Critics argue this is a pretext for intervention in Venezuela, not a bona fide anti-drug operation.

Key Points:

• Skepticism of US Claims:
  “What we’ve seen time and time again with this government is that their credibility is zero... They’re not the Bloods and the Crips. They’re not MS-13.” — Juan David Rojas (16:12)
• Dubious Legality and Evidence:

  “Have they released any evidence? No, they have not.” — Krystal (15:47) “The legality of this is still dubious... they claim in... that because it was designated a foreign terrorist organization, they have the authority to just, you know, extrajudicially kill them. As if, you know, they were like Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.” — Juan (16:57)

• Changing Narratives:
  “Rubio’s changed his story... First, that the boat was going to Trinidad, then that it was going to the US... Very unlikely.” — Juan (18:40)
• Bigger Geopolitical Picture:
  Sagar draws parallels to the Noriega operation in Panama — using drugs as pretext for regime change.

  “This looks like a very convenient Noriega style operation... an excuse of regime change in Venezuela.” — Sagar (19:29)

Notable Quotes:

• On Justifying Strikes:
  “We’re bringing the war on terror... stretched beyond recognition. But to then use it against a cartel is another. Extraordinarily, we’ll call it a legal leap.” — Krystal (18:02)
• Ethical Concerns:
  “The genius, the despicable genius of this is that... they intercepted like communications of the so called, the alleged traffickers. But... they might keep it as a state secret...” — Juan (22:27)

Venezuela & Regional Fallout:

• Maduro’s Response:
  “He loves this... [It] gives them an excuse to crack down on dissent, you know, diffuse blame for all of their own, like, ups.” — Juan (25:07)
• Mexican Relations:
  “While Mexico and its government has a lot of links and corruption... Mexico’s also the number one trading partner of the United States... To shut down the border, you would genuinely nuke the US Economy.” — Sagar (26:23)
• Nihilistic Policy Drivers:
  “A lot of it is vibes. A lot of it is symbolism... So with Mexico, I can see them just, like, doing some kind of strike just because... it makes the base feel good.” — Juan (27:20)

Warning on Destabilization:

• “Venezuela is a failed state... Like, you remove this guy... we’re in some sort of prolonged Vietnam, Iraq-esqe war in our hemisphere. Like, my God. And what are the migratory consequences?” — Juan (29:24)
• “More people would leave. Venezuela is not going to get fixed overnight. And most sober Venezuelans know this.” — Juan (30:15)

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3. Tim Dillon, Comedians & Saudi Arabia’s Comedy Festival: The Ethics of 'Cash-Grab' Culture

Dark Satire and Brutal Honesty (32:34–46:00)

Key Topic:

• Big-name comedians (Chappelle, Dillon, Burr, Cummings, Davidson, Hart, and more) are cashing in on the biggest comedy festival in the world — in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, despite the kingdom’s human rights record.

Tim Dillon’s ‘Brutal Honesty’

• “They’re paying me $375,000 for one show... I am doing this because they’re paying me a large sum of money. They’re paying me enough money to look the other way. Do you understand? Look the other way.” — Tim Dillon (33:26)
• “If I look the other way and I see someone being beheaded... That might be interesting to just kind of see actually how they do it... I will look the other way because I’m being paid enough money to look the other way.”

  “What don’t you understand? What is so complicated? I’m the only honest person who’s gonna do it. Everyone else... is gonna go, well, actually, the Middle East is more progressive now... No, no, no, no, no, no. I’m being paid a lot of money to not care about what they do in their country.” — Tim Dillon (34:00–35:27)

Krystal’s Critique (35:29–38:30)

• Saudi Sportswashing:
  “The Saudi Comedy Festival, of course, is just the Kingdom’s long list of sports and cultural events where they have doled out tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so that people will do exactly what Tim suggests and look the other way.”
• Global Ethics Eroded by Cash:
  “This is where we are now in whatever end state of capitalism where money’s our god... we are witnessing a total and complete moral collapse.”

Tim Dillon on Gaza, Israel, and End Times Sentiment:

• “Nobody’s putting the time in to lie to you anymore. You should worry about that... they don’t care if you believe them. I’ll be in Riyadh where my bread is buttered... because the world is ending... Go get your bread buttered...” — Tim Dillon (38:30)

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4. Reflections on Collective Action, Moral Collapse, Hope, and the Future

Krystal and Sagar’s Closing Philosophical Debate (39:38–52:37)

Are We Spiraling Toward Cynicism or Is There Still Hope?

• Krystal on Moral Collapse:
  “Is that the vibe we’re talking about?... After we were lied into the Iraq war and the economy collapsed… are we left with moral collapse, cash grabs, scammers, a race to the bottom and torture as a form of entertainment?” (39:38)

• The Counter-Example of Zoran’s Campaign:
  “There is something that I genuinely find so special and hopeful about his campaign. It’s the tiniest glimmer, the possibility of a renewed sense of a collective spirit... 4000... earnest people came out for a Sunday scavenger hunt for this campaign. Young people snapped out of their Tiktok ennui to completely remake the electorate and shock the world.” (39:55)

• Solidarity in Gaza:
  “Just think about that in Gaza. Their world may literally be ending... and still they stubbornly refuse to become the animals that we have been told they are.” — Krystal (42:14)
  (On Dr. Mohammad Mustafa’s testimony of Gazan children sharing food amid deprivation.)

• Sagar’s Skepticism:
  “I hate to say it, I just think it’s very... You’re too optimistic... I individually, I am not naive enough to believe that I individually, or whatever example we do, is going to influence the vast majority of people to change their behavior...We basically live in Vegas. Our president is literally a casino magnate.” — Sagar (42:47, 44:02)

• Are We Doomed to Wait for Crisis?
  “I don’t have faith that the political system will deliver the change that you’re looking for... There’s only two ways you and I are gonna get the country we want: massive global financial crisis or a massive war. That’s another reason I was talking earlier about China. And the most likely scenario is that we are going... to be just like the 1930s... 1914 or 1939, the entire world will change in a single day.” — Sagar (48:32)

Final Words of (Cautious) Optimism

• Krystal:
  “I am not ready to hand society off to the Peter Thiels of the world and the Donald Trumps of the world who would sell it off for parts... I’m not prepared to just give in and say nothing matters...” (45:28, 47:58)
• Sagar:
  “To see the collectivization, the ditching of individualism... it’s gonna take a lot, I think.” (52:37)

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Notable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• Zoran's "No Means No" Quote on Cuomo:
  “Cuomo stayed in the race ‘cause he doesn’t understand that no means no is his line on that.” — Krystal (09:20)

• Tim Dillon’s Honesty on Saudi gig:
  “I’m the only honest person who’s gonna do it. Everyone else... they’re gonna go, ‘well, actually the Middle East is more progressive now...’ No, no... I’m being paid a lot of money to not care about what they do in their country.” — Tim Dillon (35:27)

• On Collective Action in Gaza:
  “[A child] who’s hungry... starts scooping out food from his plate to put on their child’s plate. When we had COVID... we were fighting over toilet paper... And yet you have starving children who are traumatized, who are sharing their food with each other.” — Dr. Mohammad Mustafa (as recounted by Krystal/Sagar, 41:26)

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Key Takeaways

• Elite Panic and Backroom Deals: Despite a groundswell of support for progressive candidates, the political establishment—including Democratic leaders—will work across party lines (and even with Trump) to protect their interests.
• US Foreign Policy Hypocrisy: The “war on drugs” is often a convenient excuse for broader regime change objectives; facts on the ground are subordinate to political theater.
• Moral and Cultural Decay: Our culture is increasingly transactional, with everyone (from comedians to presidents) encouraged to “get their bread buttered”—often at the cost of basic ethics.
• Glimmers of Hope: However small, acts of collective courage—whether in New York’s elections or the resilience of Palestinians—serve as counters to the prevailing nihilism.
• Will Change Ever Come? The hosts remain split: Krystal sees hope in emergent collective projects, Sagar suspects real change will only come amid catastrophic crisis.

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Topics by Timestamp

• Trump’s Interference in NYC Mayoral Election: 02:37–13:00
• US Policy in Venezuela and Juan David Rojas Interview: 15:14–30:28
• Tim Dillon, Comedians, and the Saudi 'Cash Grab': 32:34–38:30
• Moral Decline, Gaza Solidarity, and Debate on Hope: 38:30–52:37

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This episode of Breaking Points offers a bracing, unsentimental analysis of power, morality, and the fragile glimmers of collective action in a world that often seems stacked against them.

Transcript

[Sagar]

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[Krystal]

Welcome to today.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

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[Krystal]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

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[Sagar]

Prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions app hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited Ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media. And we hope to see [e-mail]. all right, let's get to Zoran, shall we?

[Krystal]

Yeah, well, it ties together. Cause obviously, you know, his campaign built on affordability and finding this, you know, sort of rock star status in New York City, coming out of nowhere to win the primary overwhelmingly. I don't know if you guys remember, we did the livestream that night. They were in New York and I, Emily and I were, you know, here. Griffin and Ryan were in New York and Emily and I were here remotely covering it. And when we went into, we're like, there's no way we find out. Cause it's ranked choice voting. There's no way we actually know tonight who won. Like maybe we might know that Cuomo won, but we're not gonna know whether or not. Wrong. Wrong. So Ron beat the polls by like 20 points and totally remade the electorate. Really energized young people who were inspired by what he had going on. Okay, I'm gonna get out there and vote in a way that I never have. So typically in New York City, when you win the Democratic primary, that's it, it's a wrap, it's over. Because it's a very heavily blue Democratic city. Not so much this time around. You had Cuomo, who allegedly is a Democrat, who decided, no, I'm not gonna actually just like be a gracious loser here and say, well done and I'll support you for the job. No, he's gonna run again. And Eric Adams, the corrupt and disgraced current mayor, who also is allegedly a Democrat, he's still in the race. And then you have the Republican, who in my opinion is the most dignified and respectable of the lot, Curtis Lewa.

[Sagar]

I agree.

[Krystal]

Who is, you know, who's running. Cause he's a Republican. He's like, I'm gonna run as a Republican. That's what I've always plan. So the billionaire class got together and thought, we can't have this guy putting in public grocery stores or letting people get on the bus for free. That would be an absolute disaster. And now the billionaire in chief, Donald Trump, is getting directly involved in the race, trying to clear the field for Andrew Cuomo so that it would be a head to head Cuomo versus Zoran. Now, by the way, the polls say Zorron still probably wins in that circumstance, but Cuomo would have more of a shot than he does right now. So we can put this up on the screen. This is reporting for the New York Times, which has really, they've done the best reporting about some of these inner workings. And basically the scoop they get here is that Trump advisors have directly discussed a job for Eric Adams if he quits the mayoral race. Adams has been kind of squirrely when he's been asked about this. He refuses to say outright whether he's committed to staying in the race the whole time. And let's be clear, he's polling very poorly. He's in like single digits or like very low double digits digits. Typically people hate him in the city. They think he's been terrible. He was indicted, he did this corrupt deal with the Trump administration. It appears he denies that, but whatever, in order to get out of those charges. But New Yorkers are not happy with him as mayor of the city. He has the lowest approval rating of any New York City mayor since they've been doing polling. So it's not like he's polling well. But if you get him out and then the article says they also were looking at a job for Curtis Lewa, then you just have Andrew Cuomo versus Zoran Montani. Now Sliwa, I saw just this morning, this doesn't surprise me, cuz he said something similar in the past. Sliwa has come out and said, absolutely not. I'm here for New York. I don't want a job in the Trump administration. This is what I'm doing, period. End of story. I'm not even entertaining it. But it's pretty wild, Sagar, to see Trump trying to get directly involved and really putting some on the scales. And this is the strange bedfellows thing for Andrew Cuomo, which you recall in the first Trump administration during COVID his greatest enemy, Cuomo was set up as this great foil to Trump and whatever. And meanwhile Cuomo behind the scenes, first of all is reaching out to Trump, according to the New York Times, and is telling business members in the community, I have a good working relationship with him, we're gonna be able to get along, et cetera. So it just shows you how much of his posturing as some great anti Trump resistance figure was total and complete bullshit.

[Sagar]

Well, it doesn't make a lot of sense because if Zoron winning and being a disaster would be good for wouldn't be good for Trump, so you would actually want him to win. It's like an accelerationist philosophy. You're like, no, actually you want somebody to do. If you think somebody's gonna be bad, then you should Let them, you know, actually go full reign and actually win the primary or, sorry, win the election. So in one sense it doesn't really make sense. But I think on the other hand, with the Trump obsession, how much of this is that he's from New York and lived in New York forever and just doesn't like Zoron and wants to personally get involved? That partially could be part of, but politically it makes no sense because if you come in and ham fistedly help Cuomo, New York Democrats hate Trump. Even if they might be open to Cuomo. Why would you, as Cuomo want Trump's support?

[Krystal]

Right.

[Sagar]

That's exactly the tacit or that's exactly the line that Zoron is picking up correctly by the way, is you're like, hey, Trump is helping this guy. I'm the person against Trump. In a democratic environment right now. You don't want nothing to do with Donald Trump. That's the part I just don't understand.

[Krystal]

Yeah, I think Trump is, I think in a sense he's like, he's kind of jealous of Zoran. Cause he has this deep hole, this deep hole in himself that he was never like embraced and loved in New York high society, you know, as an outer borough guy. And I think there's still this sort of like deep well of insecurity there. So you see this young, good looking guy, he's being treated like a rock star, people mobbing him on the street. He's this like political out of nowhere phenom. I think there is a level of just like personal jealousy that this city was his city, never embraced him in the same way. But you're right, Zoran, obviously the Cuomo people did not want this story to come out. They don't want the Trump association to be out there in the public. But now it is. And to your point, Zoran is quite obviously, because it's the most obvious thing to do in political history, seizing on that to strengthen his own hand. Let's go ahead and play D2.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

I think there are many ethical issues with this news. We are talking about a mayor who was facing an indictment that was then dropped by this administration to ensure greater collaboration with the immigration directives of this administration now being considered for a job offer such that he would drop out of a race to represent this city because of the fact that they believe that would increase the odds of anyone.

[Sagar]

Being able to defeat me.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

Those are incredible ethical issues. And none of this has to do with New Yorkers. None of it has to do with the welfare of this City.

[Sagar]

It all has to do with power.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

It all has to do with the audacity that we have here to believe that we could pick our own mayor. That we have to believe that the most pressing issues are not how to ensure that Donald Trump continues to have.

[Sagar]

An ambassador in City hall, but that.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

New Yorkers can actually afford the place.

[Sagar]

That they call home.

[Krystal]

He's got a great line about Cuomo. He says Cuomo stayed in the race cuz he doesn't understand that no means no is his line on that. But yeah, I mean I think Zoro is very well positioned. Even let's say Eric Adams drops out and takes this position, even let's imagine this Lewa goes back onto his word, which I genuinely don't think he will. And it's like, okay, I'm going to drop onto the race. Number one, you've got a mechanical issue because the ballots are like being printed right now. And so even to get them off the ballot, I don't even know if it's possible at this point. I still think based on the polling that I've seen Zoron wins even if it's a head to head against Andrew Cuomo. It's not just Republicans though that are very upset about Zorin and his success in New York City. You still have Democrats who are like, it's very perplexing to me at this point, who still don't wanna support him, who are still upset with him, who still don't wanna endorse him, including Hakeem Jeffries, including Chuck Schumer, where the writing is so clearly on the wall. And by the way, this is who your voters chose, right? Hakeem Jeffries. Zorin won your district by 12 points. Okay. So maybe you should be talking to him about getting some advice about how to fight and how you position yourself, et cetera. This is New York Democratic Congressman Tom Su. He doesn't even want Zoran in the same party as him. This is D4. Let's take a listen.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

Zoran Mamdani and other Democratic socialists should.

[Sagar]

Create their own party.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

Cuz I don't want that in my party.

[Krystal]

It's unbelievable. This guy, I don't know if you are very familiar with him, Sagar. So he represents this, I think Long island district in New York. He ran against Kathy Hochul in the Democratic primary for governor and got walloped by her. So like it's not like he's some political phenom, you know, if you look at who's winning young men back, right? Who's building out who's rebuilding a working class coalition. Who has the highest level of popularity in New York? Tom Suozzi is not on that list. Zoron certainly is.

[Sagar]

Yeah. I don't know though. At the same time, I kind of agree with him only in the sense of I would like to see more political parties because.

[Krystal]

Yeah, sure.

[Sagar]

And that's kind of where, you know, he is.

[Krystal]

The one he's in would really get destroyed.

[Sagar]

I totally agree. On a national stage. It's more though, that, you know, in the big tent parties, part of the reason nothing gets done in Washington is because a lot of the big tents don't actually agree with each other at all. Primaries are very useful for this purpose because you can eventually take over a party. This is on a functional basis. But he's not wrong. Like, you know, that guy is basically a Republican. Right. In a lot of senses. Or at least in.

[Krystal]

He should be in like the no labels part.

[Sagar]

Right?

[Krystal]

No labels him and got him. The Republicans.

[Sagar]

There really should be parties like that.

[Krystal]

Cuomo should be in there.

[Sagar]

Right. And then it can be for. We can have like the French system or the Germans or any of these others with proportional representation, which allow people to battle out and then coalitions and all those people can form in the way. Who was that guy? Brad Lander. Right. Who supported. Sorry, that's important. Actually. These types of things are good. So anyway, that's my hot take.

[Krystal]

But that's not the way he means.

[Sagar]

That's not the way he means. Yeah, that's not the way that he means. But in a way, I think a lot of these people, it's kind of like MAGA. Like MAGA's not Republican has become Republican. But a lot of the people who identify as MAGA don't actually consider themselves Republicans, which, by the way, was when one of their great assets. Because people don't like Republicans or Democrats. But like. But I'm maga, you know, it's one of those. I think DSA is very similar.

[Krystal]

That's why Zorin is popular.

[Sagar]

I agree. Because he does seem like politician. He doesn't seem like a Democrat. He run in the Democratic primary, but he's not a capital D Dem who's like, you know, been going to. It's like Pete Buttigieg just wanted to be president since he's like nine years old.

[Krystal]

Yeah.

[Sagar]

That stuff comes across and it is important.

[Krystal]

It's the reason Bernie Sanders absolutely is one of the most popular politicians. Politicians in the country because he critiques, he stands, he has his own brand. Separate and distinct from the Democratic Party and is in critique of the Democratic Party. And that's the piece where most of them are just totally. They see that as an existential threat.

[Sagar]

Yes.

[Krystal]

You know, and actually they should, to be honest.

[Sagar]

Yeah, I agree. I think it's great. And that's why traditional politicians in this day and age are not going to be doing so well. At least I hope so. We've got Juan David Rojas standing by. Let's get to it.

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[Krystal]

Welcome to Today.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here. Here to help you take it all along as the forecast calls for football all across the country. Blockbuster stars, live concerts, and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Krystal]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

Watch the Today show Weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Krystal]

Very happy to be joined this morning by Juan David Rojas A journalist with a great substack. You guys should all check out. You're gonna love the name, too. It's called Social Democracy with Populist Characterist. Great to see you, Juan.

[Juan David Rojas]

Thanks for having me on, guys.

[Krystal]

So there are many things we could discuss with you, but today we have you joining us to help us understand what the hell we are doing vis a vis Venezuela. We can put this image up on the screen, this video that was released by the Trump administration after. What you can see here is, like, this relatively small boat out there in the water, and either via a drone strike or an attack helicopter, we come in and blow this thing out of the water. Now, the Trump administration claims this was 11 trenda ragua drug smugglers. Have they released any evidence of that? No, they have not. So, Juan, let me just first get your reaction to this development, the illegality of it, and why we should be very skeptical of some of the claims here that are being made by the Trump administration.

[Juan David Rojas]

Yeah, I mean, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I tried to be as charitable as possible before with the CCOD deportations to El Salvador, and I'm pretty hawkish on immigration. But, I mean, what we've seen time and time again with this government is that they're just. Their credibility is zero. And I mean, it's sad because there are a lot of, like, professionals in, like, the dea. And, you know, Rubio claimed that the DEA was involved in this. I strongly doubt that. I mean, I don't think that the DEA would sponsor, like, would sanction, like, extrajudicial killings of this kind. But I mean, what I mean to say is that, you know, there's people in government that, like, know things about Trend Aragua, and a lot of the people that we've been told in the government, you know, have, like, verified Trindar Agua members. Like, they've said that, you know, it's because they have tattoos. Yeah. Of autism awareness. Like, we ship people to El Salvador that had, like, an autism awareness tattoo and trend. Like, they don't. They're not the Bloods and the Crips. They're not MS.13. Like, there are gangs that use tattoos as, like, markers of affiliation. That's not the case with them. Ended up with. Similarly, they have been known to deal drugs at, like, small scales on the street level in Venezuela, but across international borders. It's not really their thing. So honestly, I think it's possible that these were drug runners of some kind, maybe to be charitable. But what I can say for sure. Is that it's extremely unlikely that it was threatened that out. And the reason they probably are saying that is because they designated it, you know, a foreign terrorist organization. And so they claim in. The legality of this is still dubious, that because it was designated a foreign terrorist organization, they have the authority to just, you know, extrajudicially kill them. As if, you know, they were like Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

[Sagar]

It's a similar thing.

[Juan David Rojas]

It's kind of like we're bringing the war on terror.

[Krystal]

Yeah, they may claim that authority. They don't really have that authority. I mean, I understand the war on terror designation has been. That authorization of the use of military force has already been stretched beyond recognition. But to then use it against. Against a cartel is another. Extraordinarily, we'll call it a legal leap, I think is the most fair thing that you can ever. That you could say. And by the way, unless something has changed, one. I have not actually even seen the administration use that justification. The reporting I saw is they're still trying to figure out how they're going to claim that this was remotely justified.

[Juan David Rojas]

Yeah. And, you know, like, Rubio's changed his story. He said first that the boat was going to Trinidad, which is more plausible. I mean, that also seems kind of unlikely because if you know anything about, like, geography, Trinidad is right off the coast of Venezuela. And I doubt that, you know, the, the ships that we have in the Caribbean or were like, right between Trinidad and Venezuela. Then he changed his story because Trump said that the boat was going to the US which really, I mean, you're going to tell me that that thing was going to go all the way to the US Very unlikely to. So, yeah, you know, there's a lot of holes in this. There's also a question about, you know, the number of people on that boat. Eleven people, like drug runners. You typically don't want to have that many people on a boat because you're trying to, you know, maximize the amount of, like, drug cargo that you're shipping. So, yeah, it's. It's all very different.

[Sagar]

Thing is, Juan, this is what I'm worried about. I don't think anything has to do with drugs. I looked. I looked at the DEA's own estimates. 93% of all cocaine in the United States is trafficked via Colombia to Mexico to America. 93%. The rest of the 7% is like, some Venezuela, whatever. All right, so we're dealing already with a. Not even tertiary. It's not even fair to say that, like, the most side Actor of side actor possible. At the same time, southcom and this huge US military built up is coincided with this strike, a warning to Maduro and some $50 million bounty on his head. So this looks like a very convenient Noriega style operation to basically, you know, for an excuse of regime change in Venezuela. Is that how you see it?

[Juan David Rojas]

Hopefully not. I mean, you never know. But thankfully, you know, the amount of troops we have in the Caribbean right now, it's nowhere near the amount we would need for an actual, you know, regime change operation.

[Sagar]

Yeah, but it could be destabilization. That's kind of what the way.

[Juan David Rojas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sagar]

I look at the bow of Madura.

[Juan David Rojas]

Right, right. I like to think it's probably just saber rattling. And actually I think that the timing of Rubio was just in Mexico. I think they're actually kind of trying to send the Mexicans a message that's like, hey, you guys, don't cooperate with us as much as we want. And they have been cooperating a ton, but never seems to be enough. But yeah, I think they're definitely sending a message, hey, you guys don't play ball, we might do this, you know.

[Krystal]

In or near Mexico to that point. Let's go ahead and take a listen to Pete Hegseth on Fox News saying basically like, this is just the beginning. Let's take a listen.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

I watched it live. We knew exactly who was in that boat. We knew exactly what they were doing and we knew exactly who they represented. And that was Trend Aragua, a narco terrorist organization designated by the United States trying to poison our country with illicit drugs. We're sealing the border, but President Trump is willing to go on offense in ways that others have not been. And to send that clear signal to Trend Cartel del Sols and others emanating from Venezuela. We're not going to allow this kind of activity. You're poisoning our people. We've got incredible assets and they are gathering in the region. And so you want to try to traffic drugs. It's a new day. It's a different day. And so those 11 drug traffickers are no longer with us, sending a very clear signal that this is an activity the United States is not going to tolerate.

[Krystal]

So what do you make of those comments and what we may see as this government's policy going forward? And by the way, let's just make it clear what other administrations did is if you do have a boat that you suspect to be drug smugglers and to contain drugs as cargo, you interdict it. And that is the normal Standard procedure. There's no indication they even tried to do that. And so now apparently the norm is just gonna be we can just decide to blow random boats out of the water. And you're just gonna have to trust us that these are the people that we say that they are.

[Juan David Rojas]

Yeah, I mean, it's just like the war on terror. I mean, we had all these cases of. Of, you know, drone strikes that ended up killing civilians that said, you know, it was Al Qaeda or whoever and that really wasn't the case. Or isis. And actually someone brought up that recently in, you know, with the Houthis, we ended up killing a bunch of civilians, claimed it was, you know, rebels, but it wasn't the case. And you know, the. The genius, the despicable genius of this is that, you know, like they claim that, you know, they intercepted like communications of the so called, the alleged traffickers. But I mean, who knows if ever see that they might keep it as a state secret, just like with the C. Cod deportations and I mean the 11 guys, the supposed 11 guys are all dead now. So, you know, how would we verify any of this on like a physical level? They're in the bottom of the ocean.

[Sagar]

So one of the things Juan, that I saw was that this was potentially had something to do with the Alien Enemies act. That by participating in a strike allegedly against trend Aragua, they can argue before the court, as they continue to move through the legal process that this is now actively a war, like a theater of war that the administration is in to bolster their ability to justify this before the Supreme Court and avoid judicial scrutiny. Have you seen any of that? I'm curious.

[Juan David Rojas]

Yeah, I could see them trying to make that case. I think Emily said this yesterday. Their theory now is that. That, you know, Maduro is head of the so called cartel of the Suns, which is kind of an informal supposed cartel within the Venezuelan military. Actually predates Chavismo. And it's kind of just like a, you know, an informal term. And so that through the cartel of the Suns, the Venezuelan military, slash Maduro are really the head of Trindar Agua, which is insane. I mean, don't get me wrong, Maduro is horrific. He's a horrific dictator and Venezuela is a mafia state. But I mean, we're just like words have lost meaning in the way we're trying to go about this.

[Krystal]

Yeah, well, and talk a little bit more about Venezuela and how they are. So you've got the bounty on Maduro's head. You have best case scenario, a lot of Military saber rattling, and now this bragging about blowing up this boat that we're claiming had Venezuelans on it. How are they? It all just feels like an intentional provocation. And that's what's deeply concerning about it, is it feels like they're looking for an excuse to do even more and potential deep stabilization, regime change, whatever that looks like. So how is Maduro responding? How do you expect him to respond?

[Juan David Rojas]

Yeah, it's funny because after they did this prisoner swap with El Salvador, releasing some Americans and Venezuelan dissidents in exchange for the 200 Venezuelans in El Salvador. And like, days after that, they actually restored Chevron's oil license in Venezuela. And so a lot of the Miami neocons were furious about that. So this is kind of their way of appeasing them. And as far as how Maduro has reacted, this. He loves this. I mean, you know, like, solidarity people. It's kind of contradictory. Like, all these regimes, like, yeah, they want to remove sanctions, but they also secretly kind of don't because it gives them an excuse to crack down on dissent, you know, diffuse, like, blame for all of their own, like, ups. So Maduro has said, oh, hey, Trump, don't fall for this. Rubio is trying to drag you into the, into a war. And, you know, he might be right, but. But, you know, he gets to mobilize all of his militias. You know, he sent like 15, 000 militiamen to the border with Colombia where, you know, he thinks like an invasion could occur. And it's. It's great saber rattling for him. He loves this.

[Sagar]

Yeah, exactly. See, that's always the part that they just. It's like other countries also have politics. You can be a dictator and have politics. That's just how it works.

[Krystal]

It's funny that he played the Rubio card.

[Sagar]

Yeah, I mean, I'm curious on Mexico. Cause like we said, look, I mean, I study these guys. They're like, oh, this is revenge for fentanyl. Again. I'm like, guys, like, 99.9% of the fentanyl enters the United States, it comes from Mexico. The cartels with any power, they're in Mexico. You know what the tricky problem is? While Mexico and its government has a lot of links and corruption with all this to the cartels, Mexico's also the number one trading partner of the United States. So what are we gonna do here? And so broadly, you know, I'm curious, like, you're talking about saber rattling and all of this. There's been so much talk, oh, America's gonna go after the cartels in Mexico. The one reason I've never thought that it would actually happen is because of the NAFTA and trading. I was like, there's just. You would genuinely nuke the US Economy if they shut down the border. I mean, I'm curious how, you know, because you're an expert on Shein Bomb as well, how she is navigating all of this right now, especially with Rubio down in Mexico.

[Juan David Rojas]

She's done really well and has deeply increased cooperation with the US has also taken a very aggressive and smart security strategy. Actually, you know, fentanyl seizures south of the border at record highs and north of the border are at record lows. So, you know, both of them were saying that, like, the cooperation has yielded fruit. And that's absolutely true. True. On the other hand, the question is whether it'll be enough for the White House. And, you know, the problem with this government, as you guys have pointed out, you know, like, with the Iran strikes, it's. A lot of. It is vibes. A lot of it is symbolism. A lot of. A lot of it is just showing we're doing something. So, like with Iran, you know, we bombed Iran, Is that going to actually prevent them from getting nuclear weapons? No. If anything, they're more likely to get them. So with Mexico, I can see them just, like, doing some kind of strike just because it's. That it makes the base feel good.

[Sagar]

Yeah, I totally agree.

[Juan David Rojas]

Similar with.

[Sagar]

Yeah, because people. People don't use Google. I'm like, okay, so listen, I. I'm got no love for the drug cartels, all right? I got zero. I'm like, simple Google search how much fentanyl comes from Venezuela? 0. How much cocaine comes from Venezuela? Not much. We have $50,000, a $50 million bounty on Venezuela's leader's head. And we literally recognize a different government. And we have a government full of people who've been wanting to overthrow Venezuela now. And you just. Critical part of the Miami coalition are literally expatriate Venezuelans who are trying to get the Secretary of State who used to represent them to overthrow their government, who once posted a video side by side of Maduro next to Gaddafi. So what are we doing here? That is where I just see zero skepticism again, not even on the drug claims. It doesn't take a genius to draw this stuff together, not to mention The History of U.S. policy on Latin America, to say maybe there's something else going on here. And I don't know. I'm scared, Juan. I'm scared about sleeper regime change, destabilization or any of this. I don't think any of this has to do with drugs as of right now. Or maybe it does. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Juan David Rojas]

Yeah, I mean, in fairness, a lot of the cocaine that comes out of Colombia does go through Venezuela, especially like the coca fields near the Colombia Venezuela border. But yeah, and you know, in the grand scheme of things, it's not that much as far as regime change is concerned. I mean, look, Maduro is horrific and you know, I live in South Florida, I'm in Fort Lauderdale. And I hate his guts too. But like, you know, we have to think about this. What are the consequences of like removing this guy? Venezuela is a failed state. It's controlled by a bunch of different armed actors, guerrillas, you know, a bunch of other criminal actors. Like, you remove this guy like, and you know, we're in some sort of prolonged Vietnam, Iraq esque war in our hemisphere. Like, my God. And what are the migratory consequences?

[Krystal]

That's right.

[Juan David Rojas]

Like even more people would leave like Venezuela is not going to get fixed overnight. And, and most sober Venezuelans know this.

[Sagar]

Yeah, you're exactly right.

[Krystal]

Absolutely right.

[Sagar]

Thanks for joining us, man. We always appreciate your analysis.

[Juan David Rojas]

Thanks guys.

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[Krystal]

21 plus terms and conditions apply. Good morning. Welcome to Today.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all on as the forecast calls for football all across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Krystal]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Sagar]

Crystal, what are you taking a look at?

[Krystal]

Well, in just a few short weeks, a who's who of comedy will board international flights bound for Riyadh for Saudi Arabia's massive comedy festival. Billed as the largest comedy festival in the world. The star studded lineup includes the likes of Dave Chappelle, Tim Dillon, Bill Burr, Zee Ansari, Whitney Cummings, Pete Davidson, Kevin Hart, and a whole lot more where those came from. You got your right wingers, you got your left wingers, you got your relatively apolitical all coming together in a shared appreciation for the shower of Saudi cash that lured them to this event in the first place. What about Saudis imposed starvation of Yemen? What about their authoritarian speech suppression and vicious approach to dissent? What about the brutal murder and dismembering of Jamal Khashoggi, their rampant abuse of migrant workers, including allegations of human trafficking? Well, as Tim Dillon makes plain, the payouts were enough to get everyone to look the other way.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

They're paying me $375,000 for one show. Now a lot of other people are getting 1.6 million. That's not me. I'm not in that bracket. But they're giving me 375. Others are getting 150. Why are they doing it? Here's the point. Here's the point.

[Krystal]

Point.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

Okay. I am doing this because they're paying me a large sum of money. They're paying me enough money to look the other way. Do you understand? Look the other way. That's a four word sentence that people don't do anymore. Look the other way if something bad is happening to your left. Look to your right. If, for example, I'm at a breakfast and I see someone get grabbed and they start hitting them with that you know, that. That big stick, I don't know if it's bamboo or whatever it is. It's kind of a wood, but it kind of snaps back. It's. It's perfect for a cane. If I see someone getting it, I will look the other way. Okay? If I look the other way and I see someone being beheaded, meaning they're chopping a hand off, that might be interesting to just kind of see actually how they do it, because I think they do it kind of a sanitary way. But from what I've heard, you know, if they're chopping into. I might look down. And if. If I'm looking at the floor and I see some eyeless beggar grabbing at me, trying to get my money, I will look up to the heavens. And if in the heavens, I see a drone flying over, I will look the other way because I'm being paid enough money to look the other way. What don't you understand? What is so complicated? I'm the only honest person who's gonna do it. Everyone else is gonna have a million. They're gonna go, well, actually, the Middle east is more progressive now, and he's trying to make some change. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm being paid a lot of money to not care about what they do in their country.

[Krystal]

There you go. The Saudi Comedy Festival, of course. Just the Kingdom. Long list of sports and cultural events where they have doled out tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so that people will do exactly what Tim suggests and look the other way. Probably their most discussed gambit from a US Perspective is the LIV Golf Tour, which came in as a direct competitor to the PGA Tour, bought off a bunch of the world's top players, partnered with Donald Trump to host events at his properties. We still don't know how much exactly, the President is netting from his live golf deal, but yes, ladies and gentlemen, the president, too, is being paid to look the other way on any Saudi doings that conflict with American values or American interests. But there is, of course, so much more. The Saudis have made massive investments in soccer. They purchased an 80% stake in Premier League's Newcastle United. They spent lavishly to lure global soccer superstars like Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar to Saudi clubs. They've hosted heavyweight boxing matches, regular WWE events. They back Formula 1 and Formula E, which is apparently electric car racing, esports, women's tennis, music festivals, including stars like Mariah Carey, Justin Bieber. And they've also lured our artists for massive biennial art exhibitions. Now, some of these efforts by the Saudis to buy affection, they have been met with some protest, but none particularly significant or sustained enough to stop the stars involved from making the exact same calculus that Tim Dillon explained. Take the money, look the other way, assume the blowback will be minimal and keep it moving. That bet has paid off for them every time, as best as I can tell. So this is where we are now. In whatever end state of capitalism we're money's our God. The only end goal, apparently that really matters. The only judge of merit or character. And with this false idol we are witnessing a total and complete moral collapse. The comedians lining up to line their pockets are really just one very small example of it. I mean, it's barely worth mentioning in comparison to the decision to commit a full on genocide and ethnic cleansing in order to secure beachfront property development rights. Increasingly we're falling into an ideology of utter and complete the sense of our nation as any sort of collective enterprise has been broken by decades of a neoliberal ideology that was so individualistic that many apparently forgot other human beings were even actual human beings at all, and not just NPCs or non playable characters. How else can you explain the muted reaction when a boat of human beings is blown out of the water by the world's most powerful military? Or when Florida decides end all childhood vaccine mandates, putting your right to be an anti vax crime prank over the health of the community, especially children, especially the elderly and the vulnerable, when we all watch every single day as a genocide is live streamed in our feeds. It may be that the only ones really worthy of being called human at this point are the doctors and the aid workers who rush into Gaza, and the Palestinians themselves who've somehow still maintained their humanity in the face of the greatest barbarism imaginable. By the way, Tim Dillon actually had something to say about this as well.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

The niceties are gone. The pleasantries are gone. Israel's not disguising what they want to do. The motives are not. They don't matter. The narrative doesn't make sense. The stories don't add up. They do not care. They're not trying to make it make sense. They don't have the time. It's the last bit of control that they can exert over the system before it blows up. It's my guess it's what it feels like. Nobody's putting the time in to lie to you anymore. You should worry about that. You should worry about the fact that nobody's even trying to make the lies good they know it doesn't matter if you believe them they're going to try to dispose of you. I'll be in Riyadh I'll be in Riyadh where my bread is buttered Go find where your bread is buttered Go get your bread buttered Go get your toast buttered Go get your jelly Go jelly your jam because the world is ending but it's true and it sounds.

[Krystal]

Rough Go get your bread buttered because the world is ending doesn't it actually feel like it captures a lot of the sentiment bubbling under the surface of our culture? When people talk endlessly about a vibe shift? Is that the vibe? The world's ending and I don't believe anything. So I'm just gonna go get mine. Or at least I'm gonna try. I'm gonna chase some crypto scam. I'm gonna lionize the scummiest people on the Internet. I'm gonna embrace the basest of human pleasures, which is the sense of satisfaction that comes from watching someone in the out group suffer. Is that the vibe we're talking about? After we were lied into the Iraq war and the economy collapsed and the banksters were rewarded and the effort at a collective renewal as represented by the Bernie campaign, was snuffed down, is that what we're left with? Moral collapse, cash grabs, scammers, race to the bottom and torture as a form of entertainment? And so a bunch of comedians with all sorts of supposed political ideologies, they're all going to go and they're going to get their bread buttered from a totalitarian monarchy that hacked a dissident journalist apart because the royal family did not like his Washington Post column. There is another way. I don't land too much at Zoron's feet here, but there is something that I genuinely find so special and hopeful about his campaign. It's the tiniest glimmer, the possibility of a renewed sense of a collective spirit, a glimmer of an expanded political vision that believes it is possible to make America's largest city workable for working people. 4000. Just think about this. Extremely earnest people came out for a Sunday scavenger hunt for this campaign. Young people snapped out of their TikTok ennui to completely remake the electorate and shock the world. Or for a more profound example, I would ask you to listen to Dr. Mohammad Mustafa, Palestinian refugee turned UK and Aussie citizen turned ER doctor, who has gone twice to serve in Gaza.

[Sagar]

It's like this bizarre thing because, you know, netanyahu at the start said, you know, we are the children of, of light fighting the children of darkness. And I'm just like, the irony of it is it's the other way around. You know the irony. It's the other way around. It's those kids in Gaza that are the light. When you see those children, and I've seen them when there's little food and you know, a child might have a plate of food and the other child is waiting in line and there's no more food left, and then that child who's hungry and emanciated starts scooping out food from his plate to put on their child's plate plate. You know, when we had Covid over here, you know, we had police officers guarding toilet paper because we had. Society had broken down, we were fighting over toilet paper. And yet you have starving children who are traumatized, who are sharing their food with each other.

[Krystal]

Just think about that in Gaza. Their world may literally be ending. Right now. The most powerful country on the planet is trying to wipe out the evidence that they ever even existed. And still they stubbornly refuse to become the animals that we have been told that they are. They are doing so much more for one another than just trying to get their own bread buttered. In other words, maybe. Tim Dillon, it's too soon to give up on the world. And Sagar, curious for your thoughts on a wide ranging one there.

[Sagar]

I hate to say it, I just think it's very. You're too optimistic.

[Krystal]

I mean, so you're in full blown nihilism, get your bread buttered mode.

[Sagar]

I have been. I mean, if you just, I mean, look, if you look, look at, you know, I was. We need to talk about this on Monday.

[Krystal]

Yeah.

[Sagar]

But anti tax sentiment is at the highest that it's ever been in the United States.

[Krystal]

Oh, that.

[Sagar]

Yeah. Do you. Why?

[Krystal]

Because for me it's Gaza.

[Sagar]

Well, it's not just. But that's when it's multifaceted because it's not about federal. It's. Nothing works. Shit's too expensive for me. I've got bums all over where I live. Crime is high, the prices are too high, property taxes sky high. I don't feel like I get shit for what I pay, not to mention for what we're paying into the federal government system. All of it together. I'm like, fuck you. That's how most people feel. I talked about the property tax thing. So the point is, is that all institutions are failing us at every level. So I think it's nice to Believe I understand.

[Krystal]

I understand the sentiment. Right. But I actually don't think you behave like that in your normal life. Because we're not doing a cash grab like we talked this week about the way that other creators would. I like to are doing the total like cash grab, sell out. I'll take the Saudi cash, I'll take the dark money, I'll sell bluechew, whatever. And that's not the path that you have chosen.

[Sagar]

You're totally right. I mean, I have personal integrity, but I'm more like, I don't agree. I don't conduct myself that way. I would put that way, but I don't. I understand it. I see exactly the way that it goes. I individually, I am not naive enough to believe that I individually Julie. And this, you know, whatever example or whatever we do is going to influence the vast majority of people to change their behavior. If I look at the average behavior of the American citizen, the truth is, is that degeneracy, individualism is on the path forward. And you kind of are a fool if you try to invest in anything really broadly at like a major societal level to make people not behave hyper individualistically. That is the country that we live in. You could blame the system, you could blame the people. I think it's kind of both. Basically, at this point, we live in Vegas. Our president is literally a casino magnate. That's the country who we are. I told you earlier, fanduel is now sponsoring public infrastructure. We have no collective culture, no collective value, no collective society. So in that society, like you kind of should ensure that you're protected and you're okay because nobody's looking out for you, the government's not looking out for you. And yeah, I mean, just broadly, that's. That's like the way that I feel is I have no civic faith that if something were to happen to me that the city that I would live in would do shit for them is zero. And then for the government, oh my God, it's like, you better have the resources.

[Krystal]

So I think I probably feel even more dark about the world and the country with the Trump administration than you do. So I understand, I understand the impulse, right? But I am not ready to hand society off to the Peter Thiels of the world and the Donald Trumps of the world who would sell it off for parts. I'm not ready to succumb to a world that's just might makes right law, the jungle barbarism rules the day. And that's my point is I think.

[Sagar]

I think it's always been that way.

[Krystal]

And that's. No, it's.

[Sagar]

I mean, I really do.

[Krystal]

No, I don't think it's just been dressed up in the. As much as we are in this moment of decline and as much as, yes, the carnival bark and the Trumpian thug and con artist is a deep part of American culture and history. Like, it is American as apple pie, there's no doubt about that. We are also the country that, you know, that ended slavery, that ended segregation. We are also the country that during the New Deal, built out incredible infrastructure, incredible manufacturing base. Like, we are also that country that has had that sense of collective and civic pride in the past. So that is also a part of the American tradition. And so, you know, the two examples that I cite here are very intentionally chosen because it would be very easy for, you know, New Yorkers to also engage in like a very cynical calculation. Forget it, nothing's going to work. No one could change this city. It's a playground for the rich. And yet still they had enough faith in a collective project to like earnestly engage, come out to vote, totally remake the electorate, put their trust in someone who is untested and young and unproven. And so it's this little glimmer of possibility there. And then I really, genuinely believe what. And this is what I've seen with, you know, covering Palestine, covering Gaza so carefully. Dr. Mustafa talks about how Palestine will free the world. And what he and others mean by that is just think about how extraordinary it is, is that while we're all, you know, nihilism and everything, nothing matters, I'm gonna get mine, et cetera. Like that example he gives of a child who, you know, has experienced loss that we can't even imagine, who is trying to be murdered every day by the world superpower in their little baby terror state. And still, still they find it in themselves to have a sense of a collective and have a sense of. I'm going to share this little bit that I have and I find that profoundly inspiring. There's nothing that has inspired me more in this moment than like, Dr. Mustafa. He is an ER doc. He was actually a professional rugby player. He was very high level jiu jitsu champion and is this extraordinary person and yet he decided to put himself in harm's way twice in a war zone. To go in and serve like that is a level of the human spirit that I can't even wrap my mind around. Which is why I'm not prepared to just give in and say nothing matters. It's all shit. It can never get better like it is what it is and we're just going to continue on this steady decline like a human race.

[Sagar]

I would say, actually I would say that I don't have faith that the political system will deliver the change that you're looking for. I don't believe any politician would be able to do it. At least currently there's only two ways you and I are gonna get the country that we want. Number one is a massive global financial crisis we were talking about earlier. We actually had a shot in 08. But see that's where my skepticism comes in. The language you're using around Zoron, I heard it all in 2008. Obama, the young people, the Internet, they came out, they were well meaning and it's like, remember that commercial of taking the hope poster down? That's reality. It didn't work. It straight up was a failure. He took the hopes and dreams of literally millions and they crashed. And that's how you got Donald Trump. So reality tells us that it probably won't happen. So it'll probably a global financial system or it's gonna be a massive war. That's another reason I was talking earlier about China. And the most likely scenario is that we are going, it's gonna be just like the 1930s. We're gonna have our thumb up our ass for years and everyone will be inter. So we'll be squabbling and then one day, 1914 or 1939, the entire world will change in a single day. And from that point forward, that's when shit gets real. So that's where the Gazans of course have to come together and collect a solidarity because they are literally fighting a war of extinction. But in the absence of that, we are not, we are not fighting an existential battle, the only existential battle. We're fight against ourselves like internally and basically warding off all of the capitalistic endeavors to suck you dry of your entire soul. That's the war that we fight here. So without that external factor, I don't see it happening. And it pretty much never happened without that major external factor or precipitating crisis. So you talked about ending slavery. Yeah, I mean it took a prolonged multi year civil war of a massive crisis, 600,000 deaths, 2% of the U.S. population. And even then at it took the political genius of Lincoln to actually make it happen. Because if we're all being honest, ending slavery was not all that popular at the time, even within the union. That's the truth. Segregation, yes, it was great. You know, 1964 and all that, but it took about 25 years, you know, broadly. And what Reagan just happened to announce his campaign in 1980. Exactly in the spot where.

[Krystal]

I'm not saying it's all. I'm just.

[Sagar]

It's like, okay, so, you know, I mean.

[Krystal]

But, yeah, I think you may be correct that it does take that kind of a massive crisis. You know, I mean, that's basically the acceleration.

[Sagar]

I don't see any evidence that it can come otherwise.

[Krystal]

I'm not convinced of that. But I acknowledge that that is entirely possible. Luckily, I guess, for us recording any number of crises on number of fronts.

[Sagar]

We'Ll probably get there.

[Krystal]

Here we go.

[Sagar]

I sometimes feel like I'm broadcasting in the year, like, 1910, because there were a lot of British intellect. I'm not calling. Calling myself intellectual, but I'm saying there were a lot of, like, British intellectuals and others who were like, the storm is coming. The rise is coming. There's, you know, storm on the horizon.

[Krystal]

Yeah.

[Sagar]

And all. And everyone was like, oh, it's fine. You know, the number One story in July 1914 in Paris was about a lady who shot. I think she shot her husband's mistress or something. That was the number one story in the city of Paris in France. Like, that's the level of bullshit that they were all doing. They lived in one of the richest, most prosperous, incredible places. I feel very similarly. Like, that's the tabloid level nonsense that we're all obsessed with. And it's like, you can just see the storm on the horizon.

[Krystal]

You know, you have that. You have that, and then it's in a split screen with, like. And the military's occupying other Americans.

[Sagar]

You and I see that. Right. But most people are not. They're just going about their day, wondering about McDonald's putting the NFL on and betting on college football. Taylor Swift endorsement is the number, number one story in the country. Like, be honest. You know, have you seen a level of. You know, how many videos are there of people finding out about Taylor's and, like, collapsing in tears? You know, that's the country that we live in. And, I mean, I take solace in the fact that it has kind of always been that way. I don't think it's particularly unique at this point, but, yeah, to see the collectivization, the ditching of individualism and all that. It's gonna be. It's gonna take a lot, I think.

[Krystal]

A lot that I will agree with you on.

[Brian Christopher / Tim Dillon (various ads and segments)]

All right.

[Sagar]

Okay. Thanks, guys, for watching. We appreciate you. We'll see you later.

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[Sagar]

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[Sagar]

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[Sagar]

This is an iHeart podcast.