9/8/25: GHF Spox Vs 'Whistleblower': Amir ALIVE?, Aid 'Massacres', 'Gaza Riviera'

Summary

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Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: GHF Spox Vs 'Whistleblower': Amir ALIVE?, Aid 'Massacres', 'Gaza Riviera'
Date: September 8, 2025

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Overview

This episode departs from Breaking Points’ standard format, offering two extended interviews instead of the usual news block: first with Chapin Fay, spokesperson for the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), and then with Anthony Aguilar, a former Green Beret and GHF whistleblower. The main focus is a high-stakes controversy over the fate of a Gazan boy known as “Amir,” alleged aid site “massacres,” the operations and transparency of GHF, and GHF’s role in wider geopolitical plans for Gaza (the so-called “Gaza Riviera Plan”).

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Context and Background (Krystal Sets the Stage)

• The show's format today is two interviews: GHF spokesperson Chapin Fay and whistleblower Anthony Aguilar.
• The origin of the controversy: Aguilar previously claimed to have witnessed the death of a Gazan child ("Amir") at a GHF aid distribution site, a claim now challenged by GHF, who produced a boy (Abood) said to be the same child.
• GHF operates with significant U.S. government funding ($30m from the Trump administration), and their distribution sites in Gaza have become flashpoints for controversy and reported violence.
• The debate includes allegations of deaths around these aid sites, questions about GHF’s funding sources and transparency, their relationship to the IDF and Israel, the handling of biometric data, and access for journalists.

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2. Interview with Chapin Fay, GHF Spokesperson

A. GHF’s Response to Allegations

• GHF has identified the boy Aguilar referred to as "Amir" as actually "Abood" (real name: Abdul Rahim Mohammed Hamdan), alive and well.

• Detailed explanation of how GHF located and identified Abood using word-of-mouth with aid seekers, biometrics, family confirmation, and the shirt he was wearing in circulated photos. (15:23–17:50)

  “We are very grateful and overjoyed that we found this young boy … Mr. Aguilar has politicized and weaponized and turned into a commodity ... he called him Amir. That was made up.”
  — Chapin Fay, 15:23

• Fay repeatedly accuses Aguilar of dishonesty, stating "almost everything he has said has been proven false," including the core allegation of seeing the boy killed. (17:50)

• GHF claims to innovate in their aid delivery (e.g., women's-only distributions, reservation systems).

B. Security, IDF Relationship, and Biometrics

• GHF aid sites are behind IDF lines; there's “zero threat” is impossible, but they assert independence from the IDF on data sharing.
• GHF claims video monitoring 24/7 for security, not accessible to media due to concerns over Hamas (19:25).
• Biometrics used for aid reservations and, in this case, identification; Fay downplays the use and claims data is not shared with Israel or IDF.

C. Challenges Over Reporting and Verification

• Krystal and Ryan press on claims that Israel/IDF uses GHF cameras to identify and target individuals. Fay denies U.S. and Israeli soldiers are present in video rooms monitoring feeds (23:03), rejects sharing video with media for independent verification (25:04–26:05; 29:55–31:37).

• On pressure to release footage:

  “Again, it's more complicated than that … Hamas is studying what we do ... their safety and security are in jeopardy.”
  — Chapin Fay, 30:18

• On recurring reports of deaths at or near GHF sites (Doctors Without Borders, AP, testimony from IDF soldiers), Fay repeatedly denies GHF has any responsibility for casualties ("We've had no casualties," "We have killed no one," "That's a ridiculous question," 64:06).

D. Aid Distribution, Famine, and Market Impact

• Fay touts GHF's delivery of 160 million meals. Pushes back on claims that their operation coincides with famine, suggests the UN is also operating inside Gaza and had "execution problems".
• Attributes deaths in the chaotic context of Gaza to IDF crowd-control tactics or to events outside GHF control, e.g., stampedes “fomented by Hamas.”

E. Accountability, Access, and Political Allegiances

• Denies direct GHF funding from Israel, insists they haven’t taken any Israeli government money (51:33).
• On allegations of political favoritism: says “Democratic senators were not denied access;” claims all are welcome, deflects to “others to debate” issue of partisanship (74:25).
• On the “Gaza Riviera”/ethnic cleansing plan, GHF denies involvement, says their only focus is feeding people (69:07). Pressed further, Fay states GHF opposes “ethnic cleansing or displacement,” supports ceasefire and more aid (70:17).
• Pressed again: “No, we have had no role in ethnic cleansing, and in principle, we would oppose such actions.” (70:05)
• Affirms willingness, in principle, for independent media or/drop site to visit aid sites, says he pushes daily to increase transparency but cites ongoing warzone difficulties (73:35).
• Acknowledges Samaritans Purse’ presence for medical and child nutrition (plumpy nut packets), but admits their aid covers only a fraction of the malnourished children.

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Notable Quotes – Chapin Fay

• On the "Amir" controversy:

  “It is sad Mr. Aguilar has a vested interest in a little boy being dead... when we did find the boy alive, he did not express any blessings.” (18:38)

• On responsible for deaths:

  “We have killed no one. No one has died on our site.” (64:19) “That’s a ridiculous question.” (64:25)

• On UN & aid delivery:

  “We were never meant to replace the UN... If the United Nations wanted 400 sites, they could.” (37:19)

• On documentation:

  “I’m a person who thinks transparency and more visibility will help, because I’ve been there and I haven’t seen anything like that [gunfire]...” (66:42)

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3. Interview with Anthony Aguilar, GHF Whistleblower

A. Response to Chapin Fay and GHF’s Claims

• Aguilar opens by stating GHF’s narrative is desperate and erratic, and claims Fay is misinformed about military operations, the sites, and even basic geography.
• Asserts that GHF leadership spends money on lavish lodging and is out-of-touch with the reality in the field (81:38).

B. The “Amir”/Abood Dispute

• Stands by his prior claim:

  “It is my firm belief that the young boy they featured ... is not the boy that I spoke to... on the 28th of May at distribution site number three.” (92:32)

• Points out inconsistent biometric reporting, says GHF refused independent verification, and identifies observable physical and dental differences between “Amir” and “Abood”.

• Welcomes direct interview with “Abood” to clarify.

  “If anybody had the opportunity to speak to him, I think it would be clear ... that is not Amir. The scar on his clavicle magically disappeared. A new scar on his forehead. He had dental work. His ears are different.” (109:08)

• Raises broader concern that even if GHF produced a living “Amir”, it doesn’t negate ongoing deaths at or near aid sites.

C. Deaths at Distribution Sites / Responsibility

• Reiterates claim that deaths have occurred at GHF sites, contrary to Fay’s denials.
• Details his account of events at site three: Heavy shooting by IDF for crowd control as Gazans, including Amir, left the site; describes seeing Amir struck and lifeless.
• Describes pattern of the IDF bulldozing areas after distributions, suggesting deaths and body disposal.

D. Motives and Retaliation Allegations

• Responds to GHF claims that he is a disgruntled ex-employee:
  • His threats (“worst nightmare, gloves are off”) were related to his own alleged assault by a GHF manager, not to his contract renewal.
  • He was offered a renewed contract but set clear ethical conditions, including the removal of management with anti-Muslim bias.
  • Acknowledges being “disgruntled”—but “by genocide and the murdering of children, starving people.”
• Alleges GHF’s aim is to discredit him to avoid accountability for possible war crimes.

E. GHF Funding and Ties to Israel

• Asserts SRS (Safe Reach Solutions), GHF’s main contractor, is directly funded by Kogat (Israeli Ministry of Defense)—contrary to Fay’s claim.
• Asserts SRS and GHF are both run by the same U.S. LLC, indirectly implicating GHF in Israeli funding channels.
• Describes in detail his knowledge of GHF operations, staffing (alleging leadership drawn from military, intelligence, and far-right circles), and internal documentation.

F. The Bigger Picture: The “Gaza Riviera”

• Presents evidence (including photos) that GHF is part of a broader displacement/real estate plan in southern Gaza to clear Palestinians from the north and central zones.
• Describes GHF’s role as the executor of a U.S.-backed displacement scheme for Gaza, and warns of further forced population transfers before international deadlines.

G. Moral & Political Stakes

• Calls on U.S. citizens and Congress to examine GHF’s actions, funding, and complicity in humanitarian abuses.

• Calls for transparency, accountability, and urges independent journalists to be allowed full access.

  “Anyone can take five minutes and listen to a GHF press conference and realize that they're getting sold a bunch of lies.” (140:33)

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Notable Quotes – Anthony Aguilar

• On being labeled disgruntled:

  “Genocide, the murdering of children, starving people, disgruntles me. It absolutely does.” (127:59)

• On GHF intentions:

  “GHF is the executor of that real estate ... led by a Christian Zionist is who the US government is giving tax dollars to. We're so complicit in this. It's so dirty.” (136:16)

• On the Amir dispute:

  “I am quite confident that that is not Amir. And if I had the opportunity to speak to him ... it would be clear.” (109:08)

• On GHF’s future:

  “A humanitarian organization really is in the business of putting itself out of business. If the UN could meet the full need ... GHF would no longer need to operate.” (77:07, cited by Ryan at end)

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4. High-Impact Segments with Timestamps

• [15:23] — Chapin Fay details the search and identification of “Abood” (formerly “Amir”).
• [23:03] — Krystal confronts Fay over AP reports of IDF using GHF surveillance for targeting.
• [27:03] — AP-corroborated video of shooting near aid site is played; Fay disputes account.
• [32:34] — Testimony from Doctors Without Borders describes “disastrous by design” aid distributions, injuries and deaths, including children.
• [61:17] — Haaretz article cited: IDF soldiers testify to daily shootings at aid seekers.
• [92:32] — Aguilar adamantly rejects that the GHF’s “Abood” is the same as “Amir” he encountered.
• [127:59] — Aguilar on “disgruntlement” and his direct accusations of GHF complicity in displacement.
• [136:16] — Aguilar details SRS/GHF relationship, funding, the “Gaza Riviera” plan, and his insider knowledge.

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5. Memorable Confrontational and Revealing Moments

• Fay’s repeated refusals to grant independent media access to security footage, despite promoting “transparency.”
• Aguilar’s counter: Offers direct evidence, rebuts specifics, and calls for open verification, including a personal Zoom call with “Abood.”
• The mutual accusations: Fay paints Aguilar as “weaponizing” tragedy; Aguilar accuses GHF of orchestrating a cover-up as part of a larger U.S.-Israeli strategic asset play (“Gaza Riviera”).
• Both sides agree that the current aid system is insufficient and call for a “flood of aid.”
• Repeated references to U.N. distribution system, famine declarations, women’s and children’s access challenges, and the complex multi-lateral blockade reality.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, point-counterpoint platform for both GHF and its principal whistleblower to lay out their arguments, accusations, and personal animus in granular detail before a public audience. Listeners are left to weigh GHF’s claims of innovation, transparency, and sole humanitarian intent against Aguilar’s allegations of operational mismanagement, complicity in violence, and participation in a broader displacement agenda.

The episode closes with Ryan recapping that if, as Fay claimed, GHF is willing to let the UN and others resume their pre-war humanitarian role, it undermines the rationale for GHF’s continued exclusivity. Both hosts urge continued scrutiny and journalistic pressure for transparency and accountability.

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For Further Analysis: Key Quotes and Timestamps

• Chapin Fay:
  • “We have people who put their lives on the line to feed people in Gaza ... this is one of the most complex humanitarian crises of our lifetime.” (15:23)
  • “We are planning to begin embeds with US, European, and other international press, but there is currently a long list...” (11:55)
  • “We have never shot at anyone. Ever. There have been no deaths on our sites except for a stampede we believe was fomented by Hamas.” (25:04)
• Anthony Aguilar:
  • “There is indiscriminate killing ... We are, the United States, through the GHF, complicit in the continued starvation of the population.” (84:28)
  • “Their narrative over time just doesn’t add up ... They rely on people forgetting what has been said.” (85:02)
  • “What kind of man am I? ... I was serving in uniform and fighting in war for this country. That’s the kind of man I am.” (84:23)

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Listeners may want to replay these segments for direct comparison of claims:

• GHF on “Amir”/Abood: 15:23–19:00
• Crowd control, deaths, and video evidence challenge: 25:04–34:14
• Doctors’ testimony about violence at sites: 32:34–34:14
• Aguilar’s detailed refutation and counter-narrative: 92:32–100:00
• Funding, motives, "Gaza Riviera": 131:48–136:16

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Recommended for listeners seeking raw primary-source confrontation, conflicting humanitarian narratives, and ground-level details on one of the most politically charged civilian crises in the world today.

Transcript

[Chapin Fay]

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[Crystal]

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[Anthony Aguilar]

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Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

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[Anthony Aguilar]

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[Crystal]

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Future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com.

[Crystal]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Breaking Points. A little bit of a different show today. So first and most obviously just me in the studio. Soccer is out. However, Ryan is going to be joining me shortly for a series of two interviews. And that is the other thing that is going to be different about the show today. The entirety of the show is going to be these two interviews. Okay? So here is the backstory. You guys will recall that we have now interviewed Tony twice on this show. GHF whistleblower, former Green Beret Anthony Aguilar. One of the key claims that he made when he spoke with us and with other news outlets is that he witnessed while he was working as a GHF contractor, he witnessed the killing of a young boy that he had interacted with, a boy who he called Amir. That claim is now being contested by GHF through a Fox News digital article and also an article in the Daily Wire. So in order to discuss those claims with Anthony, we're going to have him back on and get his response to that. And before that, we are also going to talk to a spokesman from ghf, a guy named Chapin Fay. We're going to ask him about his claims with regard to Amir. And we have a whole host of other questions, as you can imagine, that we want to ask him about GHF and his operations. We think it's really critical to get a lot of answers from him. And also we're interested in speaking with Aguilar again as well. But recall, our taxpayer dollars are funding these Gaza, quote, unquote, humanitarian foundations operations. So really important to understand where does their funding come from in totality, some of it comes from us. Where does the rest of it come from? What are they doing on the ground? And as we all know, because we've covered here, we've seen news reports and eyewitness testimony, we've talked to doctors who said the Same that over 2,000 Palestinians have been killed in the context of seeking aid either transiting to or from ghfs aid distribution sites. In addition, at the same time, while GHF has been operating in the Gaza Strip, the Gaza City has descended into famine as determined by the ipc. So certainly a lot of questions there. In addition to getting to the bottom as best we can as to what actually happened to Amir, prior to this conversation, GHF had actually reached out to us and sent us the Fox News digital story. We replied with a series of questions that we had for them as well. And so in the interest, transparency before we get into the interview, I want to go ahead and share with you all of the questions that we sent over and their responses because they will be relevant context for this interview that Ryan and I are about to conduct. So, guys, if we can go ahead and put the first slide up on the screen with the. With the questions that we asked here so you can see that we asked them. Please share the biometric data that you provided to Fox News so we can verify their reporting and present it on our show. And, guys, this is with regard to the claims specifically regarding Amir, because in the Fox News article, they claimed that Amir's identity was confirmed with biometric data. Data we go on. Specifically, we would like clarification on which biometric process was used, whether it was photographic facial recognition or another form of biometric data collected at GHF sites. GHF replied to us. We used biometrics, including facial recognition, comparison of scars on his head, his paperwork, and was confirmed by multiple people from his family, including mother, stepmother, and other siblings. His mother also provided the actual shirt he wore that day. We have posted photos online. You are happy to do your own analysis as other outlets have done today. Okay, next question that we asked them as you arranged an interview with Abood. Because they're claiming Amir's actual nickname is Abood for Fox News, we request the same opportunity. We would like one of our reporters to speak with the boy and his mother to help verify his identity, his previous interactions with Aguilar, and the details of their journey into your custody. GHF replied, we have several requests for this. We may do additional interviews with her, but nothing confirmed at this time. GHF spokesperson Chapin Fay is available to come on your show to address this issue as well as the other, in their words, false accusations that Mr. Aguilar made on your show. In addition, I would suggest visiting the link that includes video of the press conference we held laying out proof that Mr. Aguilar has lied and provided fabricated documents to the media as. Which included his text and signal messages where he begged for his job back and threatened retaliation if he was not. For those of you who watched our original interview with Mr. Aguilar, you'll recall we asked him about these claims from ghf, but we intend to ask him about them again today to provide additional clarification and his response to these GHF allegations. Okay. And as you know, we are going to, in fact, have GHF spokesperson Chapin Fe on the show to answer questions with regard to Amir Abood and other issues regarding ghf. Okay, let's see the next question we asked them. Aguilar has made several claims in interviews regarding the funding and control of ghf. Could you please provide us with an on the record or background statement clarifying which specific governments, including but not limited to the Israeli and US Governments, or fund the ghf? This is relevant, guys, because I don't know how closely you've been following the story, but GHF has not disclosed, fully disclosed their funders. We know they've received $30 million from the Trump administration. Outside of that, Chapin Fey said on a different show that they've received funding from Western European nations, but would not specify where that funding came from. This is a somewhat unusual situation, so that's why we're asking. Of course, there's great interest in whether or not they're receiving funding directly or indirectly from Israel. JHF has not received any funding from Israel. As most nonprofits, we do not disclose our donors to protect their privacy unless they choose to on their own. Let's put the next question up on the screen. We asked. Aguilar also claimed that US Citizens working under GHF are currently operating inside Gaza on tourist visas granted by the State of Israel. Could you please provide clarity on this arrangement in jhf? Replied, not sure what he's talking about here. All GHF personnel, which includes security and former un, USAID humanitarian aid workers, are authorized to work. That's an area where I'm hoping to get clarification today from Chapin, because I don't know what that means. Authorized to work. I'd like to know more about the specifics of that arrangement, the specific legal statute, et cetera. Aguilar told us that they all came in on a common tourist visa. And, of course, that has incredible implications for their legal liability with regard to the actions that GHF contractors are taking on site every day. And I believe we have one final question, guys, that we can put up on the screen here. We asked, as you have previously granted certain journalists access to GHF sites, we respectfully request the same for one of our representatives. This would allow us to independently verify many of the statements you have made and to address Aguilar's claims. The backstory here, guys, is, you know, of course, we would like to gain access to the GHF site so we can evaluate ourselves, what is going on there. They've allowed friendly influencers and Senator Joni Ernst to visit and access the sites, along, of course, with Trump administration officials, several Democratic senators were denied access and other independent journalists as well. JHF replies there's been zero evidence to any of Mr. Aguilar's claims. There's plenty of evidence that he has lied basically about everything. We are planning to begin embeds with US European and other international press, but there is currently a long list. So not sure that this is possible in the short term. And I actually think there is one more question guys, isn't there that we asked. In a recent interview on our show, Aguilar alleged that a Palestinian worker at a GHF site was detained on suspicion of working with Hamas and that he later witnessed a drone strike in the immediate vicinity. Can you provide clarity on whether this worker was targeted by the IDF or whether any such incident occurred? And here we get a blanket denial from GHF. They say this is one of many fabrications by Mr. Aguilar. So that gives you a sense of our communications with GHF prior to this interview and some of the background, some of these questions. Ryan and I will get into and continue to press on because we certainly would like access to the information that they provided other news outlets to help confirm the identity of the boy they claim is the same boy that had an interaction with Aguilar. And let's go ahead and put the fox news guys A1 put this back up on the screen. Let me just set this interview up a little bit with some of the detail from this article so we can all start on the same page here. They say Exclusive video Reveals Gaza boy said to be killed by IDF is Alive Veteran told multiple outlets he witnessed IDF forces kill the boy at humanitarian aid site in May. So let me read you a little bit of this article. They say a young Gazan boy dubbed Amir who traveled to a GHF distribution site and was reported as having been killed by the IDF in May, has been found alive and was hiding out with his mother. In an exclusive interview with the boy, his real name was confirmed by the GHF to be Abdul Rahim Mohammed Hamdan, but who goes by Abood? The 8 year old and his mother answered questions provided by Fox News Digital through a GHF translator in which the pair appeared excited ahead of their planned extraction from the Gaza Strip. Abud and his mother, whose name is Najla, were safely evacuated from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, though the location has not been disclosed in this Reporting for their protection outside the Gaza Strip is nice, abood said, according to a translation verified by Fox News Digital. So those are the claims that GHF is making and as published by Fox News Digital. So we'll start there and then we'll get into a lot of other issues with GHF spokesperson Chapin Fay, who joins us now.

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[Crystal]

Good morning.

[Chapin Fay]

Welcome to today. From back to school to tackling your.

[Anthony Aguilar]

To do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all on as the forecast calls for football all across the country, blockbuster stars.

[Chapin Fay]

Live concerts and so much more.

[Ryan]

Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Crystal]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Ryan]

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Crystal]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Ryan]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Crystal]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Ryan]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global story.

[Crystal]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Ryan]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Crystal]

Chapin Faye, welcome.

[Chapin Fay]

Thanks for having me.

[Crystal]

Yeah, of course. So I just set up for the audience, but I'll just set up for you a little bit as well. As you know, we previously hosted GHF whistleblower Anthony Aguilar on our show. He made a claim that he had a series of interactions with a young boy that he called Amir, who he yet later said he saw shot and apparently lifeless outside of A GHF aid site you are now claiming, and Fox News Digital has published a report on this, that you have located this boy that Anthony Aguilar claimed to have this interaction with, whose name you say, whose nickname you say is actually Abood. Can you just go into as much detail as you possibly can about how you located this. This boy and how you identified that you believe this is the same child from those interactions? And by the way, we can put the images up on the screen, guys, of the images that Aguilar took, one of the images of the boy. This is B1, and the boy that you located in the Gaza Strip.

[Chapin Fay]

Sure. Well, thanks for having me to talk about this. We are very grateful and overjoyed that we were able to find this young boy that Mr. Aguilar has politicized and quite frankly, weaponized and turned into a commodity to use against us in his quest for fame here. As you mentioned, he called him Amir. So right off the bat, that was made up by Mr. Aguilar. His actual name is Abdul Rahim Mohammed Hamdan. His family calls him Abood. And one of the unique parts of GHF's model is that we innovate. We do not stridently adhere to things that don't work. We change and adapt every single day. And one of the main ways we do that is our humanitarian team who are out there every day, have created a relationship with the aid seekers. Some of the things we're doing now, like women's distributions and reservation system, we could only do because of the trust that we have with the aid seekers. And in fact, some of the methods that we use to distribute aid come directly from the aid seekers. So in those conversations, they went immediately to work through word of mouth. They were able to go interact with the crowd and show pictures of Abood. And they finally located his extended family and then his immediate family and started interviewing and talking with those folks. We also used biometrics and the very shirt that he was wearing in the video and photos, some of which Mr. Aguilar circulated, by the way, telling his colleagues while he was still here how important and good the mission was. So you've talked to him. He can tell you about why he's changed his mind all of a sudden. But so that's really how we did it. And we're very grateful and glad we have people who put their lives on the line to feed people in Gaza. This is one of, if not the most complex humanitarian crises of our lifetime, and it's happening during a war zone. Just recently, the idf, you know, intensified the war by going into Gaza City. And that creates, you know, logistic challenges and safety challenges every single day to the people who are out there working. But Mr. Aguilar, you know, almost everything he has said has been proven false. He lied about seeing the boy shot as recently as within the last two weeks. He lied about the site that he was on. The site he claimed he was on hadn't. Wouldn't even open for a couple of weeks. He lied about being in the video was another one of our security contractors who actually injured his hand before he came in country. And you could see the remnants of the injury. He lied about what he said and the interaction. Almost everything he has said about GHF has been a lie and proven false. There's affidavits on our website from his colleagues who are still here, by the way, risking their lives to protect the humanitarian team and our local nationals from Gaza, who are the first instance of interaction with the crowd and run our sites. So, yeah, we are very happy that this little boy is now on his way to. He's in a safe and secure location, on his way to a new life with his family out of Gaza. And, you know, I think it's sad that Mr. Aguilar has a vested interest in a little boy being dead. He at one point said it would be a blessing to find this little boy alive. And when we did find the boy alive, he did not express any blessings. He doubled down on the lies and really continued a smear campaign. So what kind of man does that? You know, I'll let your audience determine the answer to that question. That's for others to debate.

[Ryan]

Yeah, and we'll be talking with him, you know, after. After you join us. It is extremely important to get to the truth of what's going on at these aid sites. Can you talk a little bit about the. The biometric data that you collect among aid seekers that helped you, you know, locate this boy? And also what type of. Type of video surveillance for your own security and for your own records, do you have of the GHF sites?

[Chapin Fay]

Sure. So our sites are monitored by video 24 hours a day. In our operations center, we have, you know, threat analysts and people who monitor it every day because of the Hamas threat. The threat is never zero, though. Where we are currently operating is behind IDF lines. And so they work, you know, we work with the IDF only in the sense that to deconflict as they create humanitarian zones outside our sites. So they're monitored at all times when there is A threat. We have closed sites in the past. Currently, as of yesterday, site four, which is our most northern site in central Gaza, was closed because of a threat. So we only had two sites open yesterday, though we were still able to deliver a million and a half meals. And so the biometrics we use, we actually, we're very proud of this reservation system we're currently using. You know, one of the, you know, I mentioned, we innovate and we don't adhere to, you know, stridently adhere to things that may not work. And we're constantly trying to overcome challenges. One of those, right, was the way our distribution works in a site. Oftentimes men, and faster, younger, fitter men can leave the women and children behind. So two months ago we started women's only distributions. And again, I'm not here to say that we are perfect, right? It was, you know, the chaos dissipates every single day. One of our early women's distributions, too many men showed up. Hamas is always waging a disinformation campaign, called it a day of shame, told men to show up. So we had to cancel that particular distribution. Now if you see it, 3,000 women come on site after we've dispersed the first half of the distribution and the men leave, they sit down, they organize themselves and they get handed directly a box of aid, each and every one of them on their way out of the site. We've been able to build this trust, this two way trust, via our humanitarian team, which allows us to make ID cards for these women they can reserve online so that they know they're guaranteed to get aid for them and their family so they don't have to run, they don't have to come during the rush in the beginning. And we are only able to do that because of the trust we've built up. We do not share any of this information with anyone outside. It is very securely encrypted. I'm not a cybersecurity expert, but it's top of the line. And we do not share. We do not share with the government of Israel. We do not share with the idf. It is solely for reservation purposes. And that's similar to the way we found the boy. That information is not shared. We do not have a relationship with the IDF where we share information like that.

[Crystal]

Chapin. That claim has been disputed by the AP and we can put B3 up on the screen. They interviewed, I believe, two separate GHF contractors anonymously and they say, according to that contractor, the Israeli army is leveraging your distribution system to Access information. Both contractors said that cameras monitor distributions at each site. American analysts and Israeli soldiers sit in a control room where the footage is screened in real time. They go on to say the contractor who took the video said some cameras are equipped with facial recognition software. In live shots of the sight seen by the ap, some video streams are labeled analytics. Those were the ones that had facial recognition software. If a person of interest is seen on camera and their information is already in the system, their name and age pops up on the computer screen. Israeli soldiers watching the screens take notes and cross check the analyst information with their own drone footage from the sites. Isn't this a violation of the humanitarian principles of impartiality?

[Chapin Fay]

So we adhere to all four humanitarian principles and much of what was said in there is not true. And again, these are anonymous sources that.

[Crystal]

You'Re citing as verified by the AP who say they viewed video that confirmed the allegations.

[Chapin Fay]

I'm not sure how they would get that video if they have never been inside the operations center. Right. That video was not shared. And certainly there are IDF that work with us on threat assessment, but we do not share the information. I actually don't believe we have facial recognition software. That's not what we use it for.

[Crystal]

So what biometrics did you use to identify Abood?

[Chapin Fay]

Well, so that would be a different case, right? That's not what we use on a daily basis. We are not currently using biometrics in any large scale. I mean, the goal for us is to get to a place where we can use biometrics to make sure that the people who reserve aid and come repeatedly to the sites are the ones that are getting the aid.

[Crystal]

So could you provide us with the biometrics that you use to identify Abood and give us access to his mother and him so that we could confirm or an independent third party. If you don't trust us for whatever.

[Chapin Fay]

Reason, I can certainly make that request. But of course, the Daily Wire and Fox News have reported the story. I can certainly make that request. I'm not the final arbiter of what we can share. We have not shared for security reasons, much of our security footage because again, there is not a zero threat from Hamas.

[Crystal]

Like I said, that seems like an easy way to though to disprove because of course, Aguilar made other claims, not just about Amir, about the operations at GHF sites. So wouldn't releasing to an independent journalist who is not going to disclose the whole thing for security purposes, if that's a legitimate concern, why not release a full 24 hours. So people can see how well and how effectively this is going. If you know Aguilar is lying in all respects.

[Chapin Fay]

Sure. I mean, it has been proven. And we have released enough of the information to prove that almost everything he said is false. You could see it on our website. I mean, we have video, time stamp videos there that prove that the videos he's using to bolster his claims are one, not of what he says they are. Two, not the same day, not the same thing. Right. He is talking about IDF fire and blaming GHF for that fire. I mean, I, you know, as he points out, I don't have a military background, but I've been there. I could tell you after one day that IDF machine gun fire from a tank sounds a lot different than what the guns our security personnel carry, who, by the way, have never shot at anyone, ever. There have been no deaths on our sites except for a stampede that we believe was fomented by Hamas. But we have never shot at anyone. And in fact, just, you know, our security personnel are not hired because they know how to pull a trigger. They're hired because they know how not to pull a trigger. Right. They are highly trained, highly skilled, highly intelligent.

[Crystal]

Let me just challenge you on a couple pieces there. I'll get Ryan as well, because Dropsite has done some reporting on the crowd crush incident that you're talking about. So we can put C5 up on the screen. This is again from an AP report. They spoke with GHF contractors who said their colleagues regularly lob stun grenades and pepper spray in the direction of Palestinians. One contractor said bullets were fired in all directions. In the air, into the ground, at times toward the Palestinians, recalling at least one instance where he thought someone had been hit. And these allegations, as given to the ap, were backed up and corroborated by this video in which you can hear American accented GHF contractors. You can hear nearby bullets and them celebrating, saying, I think he got one of them. And someone saying, hell yeah, boy. This is C6 control room. If we could please play this. Armed American security contractors at one of the sites discuss how to disperse Palestinians nearby.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Got IDF tank posted on the northwest corner. Now, I brought a man and cocktail.

[Chapin Fay]

I told him to hold there. I don't want this to be too aggressive.

[Crystal]

At that moment, bursts of gunfire erupt close by. At least 15 shots.

[Chapin Fay]

I think you hit one.

[Crystal]

The camera's view is obscured by a large dirt mound. The contractor who took the video told AP that he saw other contractors shooting in the direction of Palestinians who had just collected their food and were departing. So, Chapin, does this not corroborate the allegation that GHF contractors are using live ammunition on or near the sites?

[Chapin Fay]

So it's just a fact that they never have. And you can see in that video, you can see all of the American contractors. There are no American contractors outside that site. So any fire that you hear is from the idf, who, by the way, does use live fire for crowd control purposes, which we have pushed them often to be safer and more secure. The American military does not train its personnel to use lethal force for crowd control. It's not last on a list of tactics. It's just not on the tactics. So our men and women who are security personnel or men, they do not use live fire for crowd control purposes. So that.

[Crystal]

Hell, yeah, boy, that was an IDF soldier.

[Anthony Aguilar]

I don't know.

[Chapin Fay]

I wasn't there. But you can see clearly from the site that the, you know, the guys who are casually walking around, those are our security personnel and they're looking outside the site. And if that's the site that I think it is, the aid seekers are actually more than a kilometer away waiting to come in. It is a long road in, and there is no IDF on that particular road. What the IDF does is let thousands of Gazans behind their lines into our sites, which, again, is unique for an army. I don't know that the US Military would ever do that, but no, we have never fired at anyone.

[Ryan]

Just to pick up on Crystal's point, the Gaza Ministry of Health last night reports that 14 more Palestinians were killed at aid sites and 85 were injured. We're still getting details about this latest massacre. But to her point about the video surveillance, you said you have 24 hour video monitoring of this. Seems like the easiest way to clear this up would just be to release the tapes to the media or to a neutral third party. If it's not the contractors and it's the IDF that's doing the shooting, that will be apparent in the videos. Like, are the videos being stored? And is. Is there an inspector general, is there an international body, is there a, a national body, is there a neutral news organization that you feel that you could release this to? Because every single day there are new reports about massacres at aid sites almost. And the way to dispel it would be to release these tapes.

[Chapin Fay]

Right? So again, it's a little bit more complicated than that. This is an ongoing war and there is a Hamas threat. Our people have been doxxed. Right.

[Ryan]

But you're behind IDF lines. You said you're behind IDF lines.

[Chapin Fay]

Yes. That doesn't mean the threat is zero, right? There was a. The IDF had to take out a threat.

[Crystal]

I don't understand how that relates to releasing videos to a neutral journalist or independent third party.

[Chapin Fay]

Because Hamas is studying what we do, they are often on our site taking pictures of people and processes and learning so that they can presumably create violence.

[Crystal]

We're not talking about releasing it to Hamas. We're talking about releasing it to an independent journalist or third party so that they could verify.

[Chapin Fay]

Well, I would just say that it's. Again, it's more complicated than that. We have people on our team's addresses and full names being printed in legitimate media outlets for no other reason than there's no journalistic reason to print people's addresses and where people are staying in Israel, which has happened. We had a humanitarian guy, a man who has spent his entire life working for usaid, mostly in the Middle east and Africa, helping people and doing humanitarian aid work, did a press briefing to describe what our humanitarian efforts were like, and immediately his name was printed. Reporters were calling his language teachers to find out information about him, not for journalistic reasons, but to print where he's staying in Israel. And he now is being protested, and his safety and security are in jeopardy. That's happening to our leadership in America. Tony, trying to dox people right now. He's giving out again.

[Crystal]

There's no independent journalist that you trust to review this footage. They're all in league with Hamas.

[Chapin Fay]

It's. Well, you yourself, your colleague just cited the Gaza Ministry of Health. That is a Hamas agency. They do not distinguish between combatants and civilians. And we just learned they do not.

[Crystal]

Distinguish between men and women who view those death statistics actually believe that they're an undercount if you don't trust their statistics. However, we could take a listen to what the UK head of MSF or Doctors Without Borders has to say about what their doctors in the field are seeing around your aid distributions. And Ryan and I have both individually spoken with doctors, American doctors who have gone into Gaza and come out and say that every time there is an aid distribution at one of your sites, they end up with a mass casualty event at the hospital. So, guys, this is B5. If we could go ahead and play for Chapin what the head of the Doctors Without Borders UK has to say about how this aid distribution is going.

[Chapin Fay]

Your conclusion, very clearly reading it, is that it's been disastrous. Absolutely. And I think it's been disastrous by Design. So our report just covers two health centers. The two primary care centers are not designed to deal with trauma cases, really particularly down in the south of the Gaza Strip in Rafah and over the last seven weeks. So it only covers a period of seven weeks. It only covers two of the Gaza Humanitarian foundation sites. But those two small health centers have received 1,380 cases of people who were casualties at the Gaza humanitarian conference. Just your two clinics? Just those two clinics. So we know it's a drop in the ocean because we know that many other people are not coming to the clinics, they're going to other hospitals or other locations. But in our two clinics, 1,380 casualties, of which 174 had been shot and that included also 28 dead bodies. So that's a huge number of people and many children amongst them. So about 20% of the cases were children, including 20% of the people who've been shot. We had cases such as an 8 year old shot through the chest and a 12 year old shot through the stomach. And they all, you know, the casualties all described the sort of same scenario of becoming, of going to seek food, of starving, going to seek food. That's the only place now in Gaza where you can try and access food. You essentially have no choice. You either stay home and starve to death or you go to one of these sites to try and access some food. And they were then either shot or they were injured in the chaos and the stampedes that happen around around those sites.

[Crystal]

So Chapin, let's say we take your word for it that none of these deaths are happening on the sites. They're all done by the IDF either when people are transiting to or from the sites. As a humanitarian organization, you're not just responsible for distributing aid, but also for helping to ensure the logistics and safety of people who are trying to receive that aid. So don't you bear some responsibility for the recurring near daily aid massacres that are being reported on in the press that Palestinians are attesting to and that doctors are attesting to as well?

[Chapin Fay]

Well, I'm glad you brought that up. I'll address the first false thing she said, which was the last thing she said, that we are the only aid organization operating that is 100% false. The United nations is operating, is trying to move aid into, further into Gaza and they are unable to do it right. They moved in the month of August. They had almost, they had around, I think 1100 trucks that they brought across the border into Gaza and 93.5% of them were diverted by presumably Hamas or others you could also see online, all over social media.

[Crystal]

That's just to correct you.

[Anthony Aguilar]

It's our own website.

[Crystal]

I just have to correct you on one thing. There's, you know, the New York Times reported that according to Israeli military officials. So not Hamas. Israeli military officials. There is zero evidence of systematic looting of aid. Now, what I will grant you is happening is that you have mass starvation in the Gaza Strip, including since your organization began operating, which seems like an indictment of the efficacy of what you're doing there. But you do have a lot of desperate people who are at times climbing on trucks and trying to take the aid out of sheer starvation and desperation. There's no doubt about that. The solution to that is allowing vastly more aid in and having the type of system that the UN was previously running, where they had some 400 distribution sites versus the four that your organization runs.

[Chapin Fay]

Right, but if the United nations wanted to have open 400 distribution sites right now, they could.

[Crystal]

Chapin. Who controls the borders to Gaza? Who controls the borders to Gaza?

[Chapin Fay]

So where, where are these trucks going?

[Crystal]

Are you controlling the borders? Is it the UN who controls inside Gaza?

[Chapin Fay]

We're talking about inside Gaza. What does the border have to do with that?

[Crystal]

We're talking about trucks inside Gaza into Gaza. Is it the UN?

[Chapin Fay]

No, it's the UN did not deliver, did not bring in 1100 trucks in the month of August. That's what you're telling me. They're. You're telling me that. Right?

[Crystal]

I'm telling you that the hundreds of trucks, even when I'm saying what I'm asserting, which is what has been reported not just by the UN but by any number of media outlets by United States senators who have visited the region, that the amount of aid that enters the Gaza Strip is a direct function of what the Israelis decide are going to go in. And we've had announcements from the Israelis in the past where they were going to block effectively all aid from coming in. And your organization has been set up effectively as a replacement for previously existing UN distribution system.

[Chapin Fay]

The UN is currently trying to distribute aid moving hundreds of trucks across the border a day. They just have a problem with being able to do it. That's just 100% false. What you said is not true. The United nations is operating as we are. We were never meant to replace the UN. We agree. I will 100% agree with you right now. Four sites is not enough. We were meant to have eight sites. We were meant to be one small part of a much broader, more complex solution to one of the most complex humanitarian crises on planet Earth. And if the United nations, which we have an open offer to collaborate with, would collaborate with us, imagine how many more people we could.

[Crystal]

So let me give you, let me give you some specifics and we'll get Ryan in here. So this is D9 guys, just to make it really clear the dynamics, because it is true, Israel is allowing some trucks from the UN in at this point between the 6th and 12th of August. So this is roughly a month ago. Humanitarians made 81 attempts to coordinate planned movements with Israeli authorities, including in transfer fuel and personnel. Of this number, 35 were facilitated, 29 initially approved, then impeded on the ground, 12 were denied and five had to be withdrawn by the organizers. So that's the reality of what the UN is dealing with here. And that's why I say the number of trucks which are allowed to come in directly relate to what the Israelis decide they want. To allow time for a sofa upgrade.

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[Crystal]

Good morning.

[Chapin Fay]

Welcome to Today. From back to school to tackling your.

[Anthony Aguilar]

To do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all on. As the forecast calls for football all across the country. Blockbuster stars, live concerts and so much more.

[Ryan]

Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Crystal]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Ryan]

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Crystal]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Ryan]

But what's happening in America isn't just.

[Chapin Fay]

The cause of global upheaval.

[Ryan]

It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Crystal]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Ryan]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.

[Crystal]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Ryan]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Crystal]

Let me go ahead and get Ryan in here because I've been sort of dominating. Sorry.

[Ryan]

Well, no, just, just to add context to what Kristal's saying there and you know, you know the history there. On March 2, the Israeli government blocked all humanitarian and medical aid, food and medicine into Gaza. That lasted for almost two months. Israel argued that the reason that they did that was that at these 400 distribution sites, Hamas was getting access to the food and. And then that. And that was a problem for the Israeli war effort, is a problem for the Palestinian civilians inside Gaza. So they said, we're going to redesign it. So we're going to have only four aid sites that are many kilometers away from population centers, and they're going to be behind IDF lines so that Hamas cannot steal the aid. And so then they reopened aid through these four systems. So are you saying that your understanding from the Israeli government is that if the UN and other humanitarian aid organizations wanted to open up 400 aid sites tomorrow and get an influx of trucks in, that they would be able to do that, and that Israel is not standing away because famine was declared on August 22. Since then, there has been an average of 11 trucks a day allowed into Gaza. That's since the famine was declared. And so are you saying that what you have heard from Israeli authorities is that they would allow unimpeded aid and they would allow the humanitarian aid groups to open those 400 sites again?

[Chapin Fay]

What I'm telling you is in the month of August, the UN moved 1100 trucks into Gaza. That's what I'm telling you.

[Ryan]

And because the UN didn't want to deliver the trucks or because Israel was blocking the trucks from entering and closing the distribution sites because they said Hamas was controlling these distribution sites, the United.

[Chapin Fay]

Nations distributed and moved 1100 trucks. I believe that's the number. I could be wrong. Exactly the number. It's over 1,000 trucks in the month of August went over the border and into Gaza.

[Ryan]

Oh, are you saying that's a. You're saying that's a.

[Chapin Fay]

You can see it on the United nations website. You can see it on the United.

[Ryan]

Nations there's 31 days in August. 600, minimum of 600 trucks a day is needed. So you're saying that they did less than two days worth of what's needed.

[Chapin Fay]

It is. It is a good thing that trucks are moving in. It is a good thing that the airdrops are happening. We are concerned with the safety and security of it. But we believe more aid is the answer to many of the problems that we're talking about. When you mentioned the blockade of aid, when we were approved to go in, we were approved for eight sites. The IDF only built us four. So we are beholden to when and where. Because they're waging war. We push them every single day, including back then. We fought publicly, and you could see it publicly. We fought for the United nations to also be allowed in. We over to. A letter was sent in August by over 200 international NGOs from over 15 countries urging people to work with us. Right. This is a complex problem. We would love to work with the United Nations. We have had none of our aid diverted. By their own metrics, they had 93.5% of the trucks, which again, is not enough.

[Crystal]

Why is it that on July 9 GHF posted to Twitter, Hamas wants GHF out of Gaza and the UN back in so it can once again control the food supply. That certainly doesn't seem like a statement, you know, full support for UN aid distribution here.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Sure.

[Chapin Fay]

So we support the UN distributing aid. We do not support Hamas taking it. I mean, I think that's pretty clear. Our mission is to feed the people of Gaza in a way that Hamas can't steal it.

[Crystal]

Do you have evidence that the Israeli military doesn't have that Hamas has been stealing aid? Because Israeli military officials say that's not happening.

[Chapin Fay]

You could see it online. I can show it to you. The armed men driving trucks around Gaza City prior to this recent IDF offensive. I mean, you can see it on social media. We'll send it to you for sure.

[Crystal]

Chapin, Again, it doesn't matter whether it's.

[Chapin Fay]

Hamas or anyone else. Right.

[Crystal]

But I want to go back to the origin of this question, which was about the 2,000 plus aid seekers who have been killed. In the context of seeking aid at your sites, the testimony from doctors.

[Chapin Fay]

So you keep saying at your sights, that is false.

[Crystal]

So you don't accept.

[Ryan]

You don't accept that that's out, outside your sights.

[Chapin Fay]

Well, again, right outside. I don't know why you're trying so hard to.

[Crystal]

Well, my question is casualties to us.

[Ryan]

But it's Not a coincidence.

[Chapin Fay]

On the United nations has had a couple hundred percent uptake in casualties at their trucks and convoys recently. Have you been interrogating those numbers as much as you're interrogating ours?

[Crystal]

Tabin we have actually covered this is a war zone. We have covered those aspects as well. But we've spoken with doctors directly. We heard the testimony from the head of Doctors Without Borders uk.

[Chapin Fay]

Yes, I'm happy to respond to that.

[Crystal]

Ryan's news outlet has spoken directly to Palestinian eyewitnesses and in every instance they say that nearly daily there are aid massacres when people are going to transiting to and from your sites. Now let's say you're correct and that if we could see all the security footage, you would be vindicated, that your contractors have nothing to do with that. Do you bear any responsibility for those killings that are happening when aid seekers are transiting to and from your sites or do you just think you have nothing to do with that? The IDF's going to do what they have to do and it's not your business.

[Chapin Fay]

As I said, we push the IDF to deconflict and to make it safe across Gaza and expanding Manitarian zones every single day. We are not affiliated with the government of Israel and we are not affiliated with the idf, though we work with them, of course, on safety. And I'm glad you brought me back to Nasser Hospital and Doctors Without Borders where they operate and the numbers that come out of there. Our model is unique. We use local Gazans who run the sites. They're the ones who interact with the crowd and download the aid and hand it out and all of that. They currently live on site 24 hours a day and cover their faces because a few months ago they used to take a bus to work and Hamas hijacked a bus, shot nine people and murdered them on video. The remaining survivors of that massacre, around 20 of them were brought to Nasser Hospital where Doctors Without Borders operates, and they were refused treatment and they were left to die in the courtyard in the parking lot because of their affiliation with us.

[Crystal]

That's an extraordinary claim. Do you have evidence for that?

[Anthony Aguilar]

Sure.

[Chapin Fay]

It's been reported in the media, not widely because it doesn't fit a neat narrative. Doctors Without Borders also has an agenda. There's been recent reporting about them running ads against us. And again, Nasser Hospital who we you can see recent reporting and hostage testimony that there were hostages at Nassar Hospital. You know, the idf, you know, just had an offensive against it. So again, the Gaza Ministry of Health is Hamas, one of the combatants, which has no moral equivalency with Israel and the idf, which is a professional military. The IDF doesn't confirm many of those casualties. And I would express.

[Crystal]

So you don't believe that this is happening? You just reject. You just reject the evidence of doctors, witnesses, outside organizations, journalists?

[Chapin Fay]

I'm not saying there are no casualties. I wonder why you're trying so hard to tag a group that is tasked solely with feeding people in some sort of agenda. I don't know why you're trying to be feeding people.

[Crystal]

You're not doing very well since there's a famine there.

[Chapin Fay]

We delivered 150 million meals and have had no food diverted. We've delivered almost 160. Sorry, 160.

[Crystal]

During the time of your operation. The IPC has declared a famine and children are starving to death. So I would say that's an indictment of the efficacy of your actions.

[Chapin Fay]

The debate over famine is for others to determine. I mean, it's been reported that the United nations changed its standards to create effect. That's fine. That's. Again, that's for someone else to debate. Where we operate in the south, and I will grant you that the need is more acute in the north, where we do not operate. Where we operate in the south. We have put 160 million meals directly into the hands of the Palestinian people. We have 3,000 women who come to our sites. You can ask them about the safety and about Hamas threat and all of that stuff. Why would they come to our sites if we weren't. If they weren't feeding their families?

[Crystal]

We have spoken with Palestinians about their experience, which is what we're trying to relate to you. And Ryan has done extraordinary reporting in this regard.

[Ryan]

Well, Chapin. Yeah. We reached out when we heard this claim that they allowed people to die in the courtyard of Nasser Hospital. Reach out to msf, who reached out to Nasser Hospital. The doctors there at both organizations say that they have no idea what you're talking about. They've no evidence of this at all. If you can put us in touch with any family members of those who died in the courtyard outside of Nazareth Hospital, we will absolutely report that. Can you commit to attempting to try to find some family members of those who died outside the. The hospital? Because they say that this is absolutely untrue. Okay. I also wanted to ask you. One of the things. You get criticized.

[Chapin Fay]

This is an active war zone. And again, I'm not here to say that GHF is perfect. I'm not here to say there are no casualties in this war. Every casualty is regrettable. And again, we push the IDF every single day. Right. We don't shoot at people. We have never shot at people. The only times they have ever shot their weapons was into the air the day of the stampede so a former US Marine could run into the stampede and save a child's life. That same day, a gun was pulled on him in the crowd. He didn't. Same man didn't raise his weapon, didn't fire it, ran at the man, tackled him, and took the pistol away. And you're trying to tell me these people are out being maniacs? It's just not true. These are honorable men doing honorable work. This is a mission that they enjoy because for once, they're not asked to shoot at people. They're being asked to help protect people whose only mission in life is to feed the people of Gaza, which we've done to the tune of 160 million meals.

[Ryan]

You said a moment ago that there's no connection, no relationship with the Israeli government. We could put up D1 here. This is Basil Smotrich saying that Israel is allocating funds for the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. And earlier you said, and that in these. That the IDF helps you with threat assessment and that you have, you have. You have rooms where you have monitors up where you're. Where you're checking to see if there are, you know, ongoing threats at the site. So the. So the. So are you saying that the IDF is in those monitoring rooms with you where you're collecting the data?

[Chapin Fay]

So when I say helping with threat assessment, the IDF is doing constant threat assessment in this war, and they let us know if there is a threat that we haven't determined. Right. One of our sites was closed yesterday because of a threat up north. Hamas comes, they pay people to dig tunnels. There's a. You know, it's structurally difficult logistically because there's a bridge that people hide under. So that's what I mean. So the IDF is constantly doing threat assessment. You don't have to ask them, you know, what kind of technology and how they do that. I don't have any particular insight into that, but we do.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Excuse me.

[Chapin Fay]

We do coordinate with them and work together on whether the site is safe. Right. If the site is not safe, we do not open. And you'll notice if you get our daily updates, we have four sites. One is being rebuilt currently. So we have three sites that are operational. For example, yesterday only two were open because, again, the one in central Gaza, there was some sort of identified threat that I'm not privy to and we didn't open that site. So that's what I mean by working with the IDF on threats. The Smotrich reporting. I have read the reporting too. We have not received any money. I have seen him talk about the humanitarian a fund right. Which may not be us, I don't really know. But we do not take any money from the government of Israel and we likely would not if offered. But as of today there, there has been no money and no funding from the government of Israel. Are really our only relationship with the government of Israel is that we are approved to operate and certainly, you know, through the IDF on deconfliction.

[Ryan]

And one of the other things that you get criticized for is the content of the packages you give out. You know, pasta and some other, you know, starch and other basics. According to humanitarian aid worker I spoke with yesterday, There are roughly 300,000 children five and under currently facing acute malnutrition, either severe or moderate. It they need a very particular type of, you know, response. It's also often, you know, this particular nutritional peanut butter packages that, that go into some aid organizations bring in. What are you doing for those 300,000 children five and under who are facing malnutrition who probably can't, you know, get through the desert to these sites and then learn as you just said, like I'm sure thousands of people showed up to the site that was closed last night and the IDF usually uses then live gunfire to disperse the crowd who thought it was going to be open but then found it wasn't. So how do the children five and under, what are you doing for them and are you working on bringing in something other than the pasta and the lentils and what you were criticized for at the beginning?

[Chapin Fay]

Yeah, happy to answer that. But on the piece about when we're closed, I don't know that that's true. Certainly can't confirm that there was no crowd. But we communic via, you know, many sort of a holistic way and we have a flag system. Right. It's red when it's closed and it's green when it's open. We do social media. A lot of them have devices. So I don't know that that's true that that you know, that they didn't know we were closed. By the way, the flag quickly, how.

[Ryan]

Long on average I've heard they are open for about eight minutes. What's, what's your sense of how long the site is open when it goes green?

[Chapin Fay]

I've been there. So the first part of the distribution can be quick, longer than eight minutes, but certainly in half an hour. So our model is a little different. Right. We have these sites, these secure sites. Our aid convoys come. The local workers use forklifts, download the aid, that convoy leaves, and then a mobile team comes, that includes the humanitarians, and they open the site. Now with the women's distributions, that takes a long time to physically put a bag when we have them because it's easier for them to carry or a box directly into their hands. It can take up to four or five hours. But, yes, we open for a discrete time period and then we close. And again, I'm not here to tell you that we're perfect. Right. One of the challenges, the reason we do women's distributions, women and children at the end, is because, you know, the aid was going too quickly and it was going to younger, fitter men for a little while. Right. And we were trying to solve for that challenge. On the children's nutrition, we actually have Samaritan's purse now on our sites for probably about a month now, they are distributing medical aid. We had military, you know, former military medics and doctors performing those duties. We now have Samaritan's purse, which is Ingo, that. That does that. And that's their specialty. They also donated nutritional. What you're talking.

[Ryan]

Go ahead.

[Chapin Fay]

Yeah, yeah. So they donated. Ready to use supplemental food. Rusf, I think the nickname for it is Plumpy Nut, exactly what you described. It's like a peanut buttery substance. And one of the requirements, you know, they came to the sites to make sure, you know, was something that could work for them on the medical aid and on the rusf. Because you can't just, from what I'm told, you can't just like surge the population with that particular item because if you eat too much of it when you're hungry. Right. Or starving, it can have negative health consequences. So one of their requirements was that it be handed out individually to people or individually put in the boxes. So during the women's distribution, we hand them out. I apologize, I'm blanking on the number, but it's certainly in the tens of thousands. It might be in six figures by now. It's been about a month. We also work with many of the women who are mothers so that they can be vetted and then we can give them a box of it. Right. Of just that, so they can distribute it to their family and friends and community. So we are doing that again. We have to pretend there's only one way to feed or distribute aid to the people of Gaza. Right. We are doing one small part here and that's one of our innovations that seem to have been working Samaritan's Purse. So one of the things I find fascinating is they see children, they bring from the, from the distribution side to the humanitarian side in our sites. They bring passive security personnel, they bring children in, you know, if they're scraped or cut or many of them are barefoot. One of our humanitarians actually started a, you know, a fund to provide shoes for some of the people that don't have them. But often they're like bloody feet kind of injuries. And now Samaritan's Purse is doing that. But they do follow ups.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Right.

[Chapin Fay]

If a kid was stitched up two weeks prior, they'll bring him into the site and stitch them up again or, sorry, do the follow up. So we're glad that, you know, Smarter's Purse is able to do that in a professional way. We're talking with them about building wells on our sites as well so we can have an ongoing supply of water to distribute as well. So those are the kind of innovations that GHF is looking into doing.

[Ryan]

So they're almost at. And hopefully over a hundred thousand of these distribution. As I mentioned though, I don't have.

[Chapin Fay]

That statistic at my fingertips.

[Ryan]

Let's even say it's 200,000 at this point. You know, there's 300,000 kids needing three meals a day. That's, you know, it's close to a million meals a day just for the children five and under who are facing malnutrition, like at this moment, it seems like they, and I think you would probably agree, like you said, it can't just be the four sites. You know, there should be a flood of aid going into Gaza. So then what then where is that? Like the Palestinians can't solve this problem alone. The Palestinians can't solve this problem alone. Flood 8 in. So you would agree, just flood the aid in?

[Chapin Fay]

Definitely. And UN Everybody else, yes. When the UN started moving trucks again, before this offensive, the pressure started coming down in our area as well. Right. And technically with our sites from central to south, we're within, we think, a million of the population. Right. It's a 2 million, you know, it's over 2 million. So it's not enough. We totally agree. But we see, right, we put out a couple hundred pounds of flour a day and it has immediate impact on the local market. Right. So, so the more aid that's out there, even if it's being sold as long as it's not price gouging or being hoarded by. You know, I hate to blame Hamas for everything, but gangs or whatever, as long as it's getting out there, it makes everything safer, right? The only reason we can do some of these things like the women's distribution, which are actually very calm and orderly. The only reason we can do that is because some of the pressure in the areas we are serving is coming down. We actually do not. Again, I'm not going to debate whether there's famine or not, but where we operate, we see a lot of people coming often. I go a couple of times a week and even I see repeat faces and have relationships with some of the women and children who we see every day. So the people who are there are coming often and we are seeing people get healthier and we are seeing the crowds become calmer.

[Crystal]

A few more things we want to get from you. First of all, just because it's such a crucial issue, I know you don't trust the Gaza Health Ministry because you say they're Hamas run organization. You don't trust Nasser Hospital. You don't trust Doctors Without Borders. You don't trust the doctors we've spoken with. Maybe you trust the IDF because soldiers, IDF soldiers spoke with Haaretz. We could put D8 up on the screen and discussed described the transit to and from your sites as quote, a killing field. The headline here is IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for humanitarian aid. Where I was stationed, between one and five people were killed every day. They're treated like a hostile force. No crowd control measures, no tear gas, just live fire with everything imaginable. Heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, mortars. Then once the center opens, the shooting stops and they know they can approach. Our form of communication is gunfire. So I ask you once again, does GHF bear any responsibility for the mass killings that doctors, Palestinians, journalists and IDF soldiers are attesting to happen outside of your sites when aid seekers are going to and from your distributions?

[Chapin Fay]

Well, I hate to be a one trick pony first, but Haaretz is one of the outlets that publishes where people are staying for no other reason than to.

[Crystal]

So you deny the veracity of IDF soldiers?

[Chapin Fay]

No, it's not what I said to.

[Crystal]

What they experienced while they were on the gossip.

[Chapin Fay]

I'm happy to answer your question. Like I said, we push every day for the IDF to deconflict and to do things in a safer and more secure manner.

[Crystal]

All right, well, let's say hi to the police.

[Chapin Fay]

My Question to you is. Here's my question.

[Crystal]

Do you bear anything responsibility? You're not answering the question. Let's say you accept this report and.

[Chapin Fay]

You don't think that I bear responsibility for the casualties.

[Crystal]

For any of the massacres that are happening routinely as people attempt to access the aid at your site, which is why many Palestinians call them and the Financial Times and other outlets a quote unquote death trap.

[Chapin Fay]

So the 10,000 Palestinians who come every day to our sites, more than 10,000. It's 10,000 at one site. Disagree. They don't, they don't want to.

[Ryan]

It's either starve, they don't want to starve to die.

[Chapin Fay]

So first of all, I'm not going to comment on numbers that come from one of the combatants which is run by a terrorist organization. I'm not here to say there are no cast. What you're telling me, are you calling the idf? No, no, no, no, no, no. The Gaza Ministry of Health. Right.

[Ryan]

And certainly run by the Palestinian Authority, by the way.

[Chapin Fay]

Great. I mean, you know, these numbers are hard to verify. No, I understand these numbers are hard to verify and it's a war zone. And what you're telling me is we are problematic because there are casualties happening outside our sights. Is the UN problematic casualties happening as.

[Crystal]

A routine of the process? That's what is being attested to by IDF soldiers, Chapin, they say, right. I mean ground control measures, no tear gas, just live fire with everything imaginable. Heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, mortars. That's what's happening. I mean, listen, we can play you endless amount of videos what this sounds like and looks like, but.

[Chapin Fay]

Right, but if, if they're launching grenades at a crowd, we would be well over the casualties you're trying to tag the GHF with. I mean, so just interrogate some of these statistics. Right. Over three months and again, well, it.

[Crystal]

May well be an undercount.

[Chapin Fay]

There are zero.

[Crystal]

You're right, Tapin, it might be an undercount.

[Chapin Fay]

It may. And did you tell the United nations they should stop operating because there casualties on the way to their convoys or when their truck runs over an aid seeker, that is.

[Crystal]

You're dodging the question. So is your answer effectively.

[Chapin Fay]

I don't speak for the idf. I don't speak for the idf. We've had no casualties.

[Crystal]

Let me encapsulate your response is no. We bear no responsibility. What happens outside of our sights is none of our business. And if IDF is massacring aid seekers who are transmitting through the desert to our site, you may not like my.

[Chapin Fay]

Answer, but those are not the words that I use. I mean, those are not answering my.

[Crystal]

Question, trying to get you to actually respond.

[Chapin Fay]

I'm not denying anything, that there are casualties. I'm not denying any responsibility or casualties in this.

[Crystal]

You're going to have to answer that responsibility.

[Chapin Fay]

We have killed no one. No one has died on our side.

[Crystal]

You can't bear any responsibility.

[Chapin Fay]

That's a ridiculous question.

[Crystal]

It's not. So answer it then, if it's so ridiculous.

[Chapin Fay]

Does the UN bear, I mean, does the UN bear responsibility for your own organization? Have you asked the un, have you asked doctors or if they bear any responsibility?

[Crystal]

The question that is being put to you right now, let's see.

[Ryan]

Okay, let's put up.

[Chapin Fay]

This is a war zone. This is a dangerous operation.

[Crystal]

So the answer is no. You bear no responsibility.

[Chapin Fay]

Casualties in this war. And if they are civilians, that is tragic. And we push the idf, by the way. Our job is to feed people, period. And when any organization, including the IDF and the government of Israel make that more difficult, we call them out. Out publicly and voraciously. You can see it on our website. You can see it in our past statements. We wish the idf.

[Crystal]

I don't hear you doing it today.

[Ryan]

Well, let's. Let's.

[Chapin Fay]

The IDF and I don't dictate war tactics to the idf. Well, you're going to have to.

[Ryan]

Let's jointly. Let's jointly condemn one here. Control room, let's put up B4. We. There's dozens of these, but let's put up B4. So as you can. I don't know if what you're able to hear the relentless gunfire the way to solve this. It would be simple. You said you have, you know, 247 monitoring of GHF sites, that the surveillance video must reach out to where the IDF lines are. If you. I'm not saying publish that publicly. Yeah, I'm not sure, because I know you don't want.

[Chapin Fay]

I don't know. I'm not sure that's the case.

[Ryan]

But I can share it, share it privately with journalists who could review it and then describe whether or not maybe the gunfire was coming from somewhere else. But. So could you commit to at least talking to your superiors about giving access to the. To the surveillance?

[Chapin Fay]

Yes, I will. I will. I will make that. And by the way, I'm a person who thinks transparency and more visibility will help because I've been there and I haven't seen anything like. Like that. This what I will tell you right now, if The IDF is killing civilians anywhere in Gaza, let alone anywhere near our sites. We will call it out and, and, and, and push them not to do that. And that's a tragedy and it should not be happening. You can hear the IDF on our sites. You can. So they are not. Sorry, to be clear, when you are on our site, you can hear the IDF conducting operations far away. You can hear it a little closer. You can hear gunfire is endemic to the region. Right. So you can hear it. You cannot see from at least one of the sites that I'm usually on, you cannot see the aid seekers.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Chapin Fay]

I mentioned that they, they, they gather over almost a kilometer away. And just because of structures and, and you know, Rafa is rubble. The IDF has turned Rafah into rubble. And so sorry, I lost my train of thought, Sorry about that. So, but we, we push them every day to do things we can, we can safely and more securely.

[Crystal]

We can shift gears a little bit here that there are two more that I want to get from you and I'll let Ryan, if he has other things he wants to get from you before we let you go, we can put D5 up on the screen. So the Washington Post got their hands on a Trump administration presentation of the so called Gaza Riviera plan. This is one sort of slide in their presentation of what they want to do as part of this plan to completely displace all 2 million Palestinians living, 2 million plus, however many Palestinians remain in the Gaza Strip. And if we can keep this up on the screen, GHF figures quite prominently into this plan that has been described as a total and complete ethnic cleansing. So you can see on the left hand they describe the humanitarian operations of which they name check you all. GHF operates under a humanitarian mandate to secure its humanitarian operations and personnel. Hamas free humanitarian transition areas are established. And then in the next phase, they say that the Great Trust is created and ghost folds under the Great Trust. First of all, are you aware of this presentation? And does ghf? Has GHF had any input or role in putting together this plan that again would amount to the complete and total displacement of all 2 million Palestinians who are currently inside the Gaza Strip?

[Chapin Fay]

So I think this is the one from earlier this year, is that right?

[Ryan]

That's right.

[Crystal]

This was released what, maybe a month.

[Chapin Fay]

Ago, but it was from earlier this year.

[Ryan]

That's right.

[Chapin Fay]

It doesn't matter. I think we're talking about the same thing. So we actually, that is not a GHF slide deck. We had nothing to do with creating It. I'm not even sure who did. And so we have had no conversations about any of these kind of ideas.

[Crystal]

No one in your organization. You can say. No one. With confidence. No one in your organization has had participation in the Gaza accordance.

[Chapin Fay]

No one in the current organization. Yeah, no one in the current organization. What I will say is we are a product of President Trump's call for innovative solutions. I think it was last fall, and there were a ton of wacky ideas and a ton of different things that happened, but we were formed, I believe, in February in Delaware. We're an American nonprofit and we have a very small.

[Crystal]

Does GHF oppose this plan?

[Chapin Fay]

I don't know the details. I assume we would oppose it. And again.

[Crystal]

But do you oppose ethnic cleansing in general and the displacement of Palestinians? Then you can say you oppose the plan without reservation, because that's what the plan is.

[Chapin Fay]

Right. But again, I haven't seen it. I've only seen that slide. So, you know, it's like something you.

[Crystal]

Should look into, since you're featured prominently in it, of course.

[Chapin Fay]

When it proposed ethnic cleansing. We are opposed to war crimes. Yes, of course. We are opposed to casualties. We're opposed to the war. We are pro ceasefire. We are pro more aid. And what I would.

[Anthony Aguilar]

I would.

[Chapin Fay]

I would recommend extreme skepticism that anyone wants to stop the GHF and shut us down, because what that means is less aid into Gaza. Anyone who's advocating for less aid into Gaza, I would meet with extreme skepticism. We are against that. We are pro aid. We are pro the Arab states sending in the airdrops. We are pro the United Nations. We have had meetings with them in New York recently that were productive and we are optimistic that we can work with them. We stand ready, willing and eager to do that. We are ready, willing and eager to expand into as many sites. You know, President Trump and his team have been, you know, have had private meetings that have been publicly reported about the future of Gaza and humanitarian efforts there. We're ready to expand and feed more people. We await word from them and direction from the American government on resources and how that's going to look, but we are not participating in those conversations in an active way.

[Ryan]

Let me just follow on that real quickly. Philip Riley. Philip Riley is a. Can you tell us who Philip Riley is?

[Chapin Fay]

Yeah, he's. I don't know exact title, but he runs our logistics subcontractor, srs.

[Ryan]

It was reported that he consulted with Boston Consulting Group through the development of this plan. Isn't that. I mean, that appears to be A pretty close link between, you know, advising Boston Consulting Group, according to news reports.

[Chapin Fay]

So, so Mr. Riley has actually been in country since, for a long time because he was helping run the checkpoints of the board. So he has certainly been involved in conversations that have evolved over time. And like I, you know, what I would say is there are a lot of conversations. There was a lot of public stuff. BCG is not involved in ghf. I don't know exactly the origin story of that, but like I said, there are a lot of wacky ideas that came out of President Trump's call for innovative solutions here. But ours is very focused on our model and feeding point people.

[Crystal]

So it does seem then that someone in the organization, Philip Riley, head of srs, had conversations that were involved in creating this Gaza Riviera plan, which is tantamount to, you know, I don't know.

[Chapin Fay]

That's true. I don't.

[Ryan]

Or it may have been some other. Yeah, I mean something else with Boston Consulting Group.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Sure.

[Chapin Fay]

I mean Boston Consulting Group has a million of foreign clients. Yeah. You know, one of the other, one.

[Ryan]

Of the other things.

[Chapin Fay]

Conversations. All I know is there were a lot of wacky ideas is I can't speak to everyone on the team who may or may not involve those conversations. But what evolved from that was the current GHF model, which is to feed the people of Gaza in a way that Hamas can't steal it at safe distribution sites.

[Ryan]

And one of the other things you've been criticized for is, or the sense that only kind of friendly reporters are allowed, quote, unquote, friendly reporters allowed on the GHF site. Would you commit to allowing a breaking points or drop site reporter to visit the site in the same way that some of these other reporters had?

[Chapin Fay]

Well, sure. Between you, me and your audience, I push for this every day. It is an active war zone and it's complicated. But I will absolutely commit to pushing for more. I do every day. That's why I'm here. Right. And I believe that what we are doing is running smoothly and is really quite moving to see. So I'll be happy to. Happy to make that request on your guys behalf.

[Crystal]

And Tapin, how do you. So how do you rebut the idea that there has been partisan favoritism here? I mean, you yourself are Republican strategists. There were two Democratic senators who attempted to gain access. They were denied. Joni Ernst was allowed. It does appear that sort of partisan aligned media has been granted much more access. Of course, the Trump administration has been as well so how do you rebut that criticism that there has been blatant partisan favoritism played in terms of who gets access to the AIDS site?

[Chapin Fay]

Well, I don't think that's true about the Democratic centers not being allowed. They were offered and rejected the offer to come to see a distribution. And again, this is for other people to debate. Right. Everything in America is highly politicized and, you know, support for Israel or Palestine, and that binary choice is changing in America. But that's for others to debate. Right. We're focused on feeding people. If a United States senator wanted to come see a distribution, we would absolutely bring that senator out.

[Crystal]

And then the last very technical question I have for you, because this was another thing that was raised by Anthony Aguilar, is he said that the contractors you hire come into Israel on a standard tourist visa. We asked you all in an email exchange about that, and the response we got is that all GHF contractors are quite, quote, authorized to work. What does that mean? Under what legal authority specifically? And are you concerned about legal liability either for yourself or for contractors at ghf?

[Chapin Fay]

So, no, I mean, we are doing the right thing. We're trying to feed people every single day in a war zone where the risk is never zero. I'd have to get back to you on the exact. I'm not an international affairs lawyer. I don't know exactly when you entered.

[Crystal]

What sort of visa. What sort of visa did you use?

[Chapin Fay]

I think, you know, I don't know the exact term. I did not pick vacation. I, you know, when you fill out the form online, you get a dropdown menu. It wasn't for permanent work, but it was for, you know, business purposes that I'm in the country, and those are temporary. Right. When you are here for a certain amount of time, you certainly, Your visa has to change and you start paying Israel Israeli taxes and all that kind of stuff. Stuff. You know, I'm not involved in those conversations. I'm sure the. They'll tell me when. When I have to fill out different paperwork. But everyone is here legally, validly, for valid legal reasons, for sure.

[Ryan]

Last question for me, I just want to make sure I understand the point that you were making earlier. You know, one of the big holdups in the ceasefire negotiations between Hamas and Israel has been whether or not the UN aid system would be reinstituted. As Crystal mentioned, at times, it seemed like GHF was opposed to that and GHF wanted to kind of maintain its position. Is that. Is that no longer GHF's official position that that if the if Israel would agree that you are completely comfortable turning back over the humanitarian aid distribution system to the United nations and other other aid organizations.

[Chapin Fay]

So what I would say is we support the United nations operating the legacy system had some problems and we believe they have some execution problems with their ability to do the job. But we were never meant to replace them. We would work alongside them. And what I would say is a humanitarian organization really is in the business of putting itself out of business business. So if the United nations could meet the full need of the hunger problem in Gaza, GHF would no longer need to operate. We are prepared to be there and work with whomever would like to work with us until the full need is met. But certainly if the full need is being met, GHF does not need to be here.

[Crystal]

All right. Chafin Fay, thank you for your time today. We appreciate it.

[Chapin Fay]

Thank you. Of course.

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[Crystal]

Good Morning.

[Chapin Fay]

Welcome to Today. From back to school to tackling your.

[Anthony Aguilar]

To do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all on. As the forecast calls for football all across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts, and so much more.

[Ryan]

Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Crystal]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Ryan]

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Crystal]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Ryan]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval it's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Crystal]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Ryan]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

[Crystal]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Ryan]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Crystal]

All right, guys. So we are now joined by Anthony Aguilar, who you all know as the former Green Beret turned GHF whistleblower who's gonna join us to respond to that interview we just had with Chapin Fay of G. Jeff. And we'll have some other questions for Anthony as well. But great to see you, Anthony. Welcome.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Thank you. It's great to see you both. And good morning.

[Crystal]

Yeah, good morning. So you were able to take a listen to the interview that we conducted with Chapin Faye before we get into some of the specific claims he made about you in particular, which I do want to give you a chance to respond to. What was your impression overall of the interview and how it comported with your experience that you've asserted that you witnessed on the ground in God Gaza?

[Anthony Aguilar]

It's becoming quite evident to me that over the course of the interviews and discussions that have been had with Mr. Chapen F of the GHF that their position is becoming much more desperate and erratic. You know, on the, on the 29th of July, when they had a major announcement to make, I, I requested to be a part of that presser and they, they denied it. On 4 August, when they had their next big announcement, I requested to. To be able to answer questions. I was actually dialed into both of those events and they, they openly denied it. For this occasion, you know, I, I would gladly have the take the opportunity to have a discussion with. With Mr. Chapin Fay, both of us together having a discussion. I don't think that he would. I don't know if he would. If he would accept that invite, but I would. I would sincerely appreciate the opportunity.

[Crystal]

Well, and I can say we actually did ask for you both to be part of the segment today so that he could make his claims directly to you. And. And they declined.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Oh, well, not surprised. But. So I just wanted to go into some of the. Before we go into the specifics with Amir and some of the, the. The personnel aspects which we can gladly cover. Again there, I want to start off with some points that, that I, That I agree with Mr. Chapen Fay. I, I'd like to start from a point of compromise. I agree what he said that he does not know what he's talking about when he doesn't understand the military aspects of the sites. I agree with that. He has no idea what he's talking about from a tactical operational perspective about what the sites are, sites, where they're located, what happens around the sites. For him to say that the, the entrance to the sites or the visualization from the sites is a kilometer away is, is not true. I was there. I, I having served as an infantryman in combat, as a Green Beret, I can tell distances off the back of my hand and I know what I'm talking about. He contradicted himself anyway when he said that, you know, perhaps the, the, the holding area is a kilometer away. But then when you hear the, the shooting outside of the site so very close that he claims is the IDF and not ghf, well, that it's because they're close. So which is it, Chapin? Are they, are they a kilometer away or are they, or are they close? I don't think Mr. Chapin Fay knows what a kilometer is. So I'll give an opportunity to research that. The other aspect about that, you know, not necessarily knowing, knowing what's going on in the sites. He went to site one, he went to site three for, for photo opportunities. You can see him on the GHF webpage where he's doing somewhat of what you would look at as a influencer type of self selfie styled interview. The truth is that Mr. Chapin Fay, in the time that he has been in Israel for crisis media management, stays at the Sheraton Hotel in Tel Aviv at twelve hundred dollars an night. Fact, that's where he stays. So in the time that he's been staying there, Mr. Chapen Fay, just to stay at the hotel, at the executive suite for security reasons, has spent over $28,000 just in lodging for him to be there. That money should be spent on food, water, finding ways to improve the sites. But no, he is a grifter. Furthermore, with the sites and talking about, you know, that they innovate. Innovate. GHF innovates. According to Mr. Chapin Fay. What about water? Why, why haven't they innovated to, to delivering water? I think that would be a, a fantastic.

[Ryan]

You might have heard them say that they're exploring, digging wells at the, at their sites now.

[Anthony Aguilar]

They'Re, they're, they're exploring digging wells is like me doing my taxes at the DMV with a librarian. That is never going to happen. They, they use words they use description of words. For example, when he said to you that he would gladly follow up with you talking to family, I would, I would seriously consider following up on that doggedly because I, I don't think that they're going to afford that opportunity.

[Crystal]

We will.

[Anthony Aguilar]

It's. It's unfortunate that we can't have honest conversations and that if you look at the incident or the press brief from 29 July, and then the press brief that was just here on the 4th of August, they refuse to address the allegations and the critical concerns of the starvation and the shooting near and at the sites. People have died on the sites. For Mr. Chapin Fay to say that no one has ever died on the sites is a, is a, is categorically false.

[Ryan]

Well, he's.

[Chapin Fay]

On the 9th of July, he said.

[Ryan]

There were deaths at the stampedes, but.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Yeah, deaths during the stampedes. That was not the fault of Hamas. The death on 2 June when the woman was hit in the head with the stun grenade and the Safe Reach Solutions operations director was so hurriedly trying to get her out of there on a donkey cart. The individual that you showed the video today of the, the, the ghf, Safe Reach Solutions contracted US Contractor shooting from the berm. The, the. Oh, yeah, I think you got one. Hell yeah. That wasn't the idf. That was a US contractor firing on the site. For. To say anything different is just, it's ludicrous. I mean, and GHF even said themselves in a statement that they, they fired the individual. So, so if he wasn't shooting and it wasn't him, that, that, that said that if that was the idf, why did they fire him? If I was that individual, I'd be firing, I'd be filing a wrongful termination suit. Because if they're now saying that it wasn't him and he didn't do anything wrong, then why'd they fire him? So, you know, their, their narratives over time just don't add up. They don't make sense. And I think that the Gaza Humanitarian foundation in their, in their PR approach rely on people forgetting what has been said or rely on people not being able to put the pieces together in this by, by saying that it's, that it's, that it's complicated or that it's too complex for the average person to understand. So therefore you must just take everything that GHF takes as gospel and ghf, then their position is that the IDF can't be trusted. The medicine Sans Frontiere can't be trusted. The UN can't be trusted. Trusted. The. The Gaza Health Ministry, which is run by the Palestinian Liberation Authority, not Hamas. They can't be trusted. Other organizations, doctors, surgeons, me, you know, can't be trusted. So, you know, I'd like to answer a question that Mr. Chapin Fey asked directly about me in terms of what. What kind of man I am, you know? Well, when Mr. Chapin Fay was at Amherst College hanging out at Drake's Bar with his friend, I was serving in uniform and fighting in war for this country. That's the kind of man I am. Integrity, morals. I'm not a paid spokesman. I don't get paid by anybody to be a paid spokesperson. I don't get paid to stay in lavish hotels and give press conferences where I have the ability to not answer questions. What I saw in Gaza, what I experienced on the ground is the truth. There is indiscriminate killing. Killing. There is massive displacement. We are. We, the United States, through the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, are complicit in the continued starvation of the population. There is a famine. People are dying every day of hunger. The bombing that's going on right now in northern Gaza, that is televised every day. All of those civilians are being displaced to the south, where the GHF will hold them in one big area where, he said it himself, Site 4 was closed because of security. It is closed because of security. And the IDF are currently occupying the site in the Netzerim corridor. That's a fact. The construction in the south, where they now only have two sites open, that construction is the expansion of the 2.7 kilometer concentration camp that GHF will run. They are trying to distract from the reality. They're trying to distract from the facts with these dramatic announcements of, oh, we have a. We have a big announcement to make. And it's. It's all about discrediting me. And I say bring it on, because you're just digging your hole deeper. Today in their own press conference, talking about biometrics, seriously talking about biometric collection on sites. That's not a humanitarian mission, saying that they. That they. That. That the UN is just giving food to Hamas after every organization to include Israel, has said that's not the case. The. They keep digging their hole deeper. And the. The truth is. The truth is the international community, legal entities in the United States are looking into the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation's financials and their activities in very deep form. They're looking deep. And when people start to go to prison and people start to throw people under the bus from GHF Mr. Chapin Faye is going to have a very hard time hiding from the truth when he's been the one cheerleading this. So I feel sorry for Mr. Chapin Fay that he is being taken advantage of by the ghf. He doesn't even know that what status he is in a country. He doesn't even know his visa status. You asked him that clearly and he didn't know. I mean.

[Crystal]

That'S why we wanted to host both him and you. We all know there's limited access certainly to the GHF sites. There's limited access from international journalists into Gaza itself. So that's why we wanted to have him on and you on and people can listen ahead him listen to you and they can make up their minds about what they believe is happening on the ground and the claims that have been made about him and that he made about you. I want to ask you very specifically about Amir. And obviously you came on with us and other news outlets and you showed us pictures of a boy that you had a touching interaction with that you said then exited the aid distribution. You heard gunfire and then you went and. And you visibly saw him and he appeared lifeless. GHF is claiming that they have located this boy that you interacted with. We can put F1 up on the screen. This is the Fox News digital report and we asked obviously Chapin about this. This is the boy that they say you interacted with. They say his nickname is actually Abood. He's asked here they're removing him from the Gaza Strip. They ask him what he thinks about that. He says outside the Gaza Strip is nice. This is his mother. So a few things that they claim is that they were able to identify this boy through their relationship with the aid seekers on the ground. And they say that they used biometrics to confirm his identity as the same boy that you had that interaction with and that we've all seen the picture of. What is your response? And of course the reason this is important is because they feel if they can rebut this explosive claim of yours that this child was killed near a GHF site, that that will undermine your credibility on all the claims that you're making. So what is your response to this reporting from Fox News Digital and the assertions from ghf?

[Anthony Aguilar]

It is my firm belief that that the young boy that they Featured on this 4th of August featurette is not the boy that I spoke to that I engaged with on the 28th of May at distribution site number three in Gaza. I don't believe the biometric confirmation piece. If they did, they would have shared it. If they had that, they would put it out. If they had that, they would surely give that as the smoking gun to prove that it's him. The mother, in one photo or in one scene she's covered, and then the next she's not. And when I asked could she be interviewed uncovered, they said, well, that's culturally inappropriate, but she's uncovered in another. The story doesn't make sense. That is not Amir. That young boy, though he looks similar, there are so many features that are different.

[Crystal]

Different.

[Anthony Aguilar]

He doesn't have the chipped front incisor. So did they get him dental work? The scar on his forehead, the scar that this boy has on his forehead that Amir didn't. The different size in the ears, the height, the stature, the hand gestures, it's not the same child. And what I would further ask is that the story of Amir in terms of this young boy coming to a distribution center site, separated from his family. The woman that they feature there is not his mother, it's his stepmother. He's separated from his family. His father was killed in an airstrike. He was living in an encampment.

[Ryan]

I think the claim is that that is his mother, but Middle East. I had interviewed his stepmother. And so there are a couple other claims that GHF and also some affiliate some outlets have made that call into question the credibility of the story. I want to get you to, to respond to those. One, One, being that you described being at an aid site that was closed on the day that you described being on that aid site. Two, being that the video of the interaction shows a slightly. Shows a slightly different interaction than the one that you described. And three, being that at different time, different times, you've told different versions of the story. One, one version was that you saw his lifeless body and described the wounds that he had suffered. And in other versions you said you saw shooting in his direction and you believed that he had been killed and that there's a discrepancy between those different versions. So let's take those one by one. Maybe start with that most recent. With the most recent one. Like the discrepancies in the different versions that you had told.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Yes. So discrepancy one in terms of the site. In an interview in my discussion, I said that it was at site number two on the 28th of May, and I have since not only corrected that, but have said that in saying that it was site number two, it was site number three. That is a Fact, site number one, two and three are all very close. And to say that site number two wasn't that I said that he was at a site that wasn't open for two weeks. That's categorically false. Site two is open three days later. We were at site number two. And to remember, I went to all of the sites. I didn't just work site three and therefore, oh, you don't even know what site you're at. I worked all of the sites. So in that day, in that same day, in the afternoon of that exact same day, I was at site two because we were establishing the hookup for a generator to get the site running and operational. So mistaken in terms of when I said that I was at site number two on 28 May for distribution, I was at site number two on 28 May. The photo of me and Amir and on that location is at distribution site number three, the Khan Eunice site. That's a fact. I was at site number three. So forgive me for misspeaking two or three when both sites are about 100 meters from each other.

[Ryan]

Okay, so that's, that's the second point.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Of the interaction, the video that was provided by this source, the Daily Wire. And remember, let's consider sources here. So the Daily Wire has what they called a body cam footage of which did not come from me. I did not have a body cam cam. The contractor that was standing next to me that they said they got the footage from didn't have a body cam. So if they're talking about what he and I individually took off of our iPhones as non professional photographers that were there just taking the scene in the Daily Wire's publication of this engagement when Amir comes up to us and he clearly kisses the hand of the contractor next to me and he clearly turns to me and as I'm reaching out my hand, hand to talk to him, the body cam footage that the Daily Wire showed conveniently has eight seconds where that body cam is not or the camera isn't facing towards myself and Amir. In the conversation that we were having. I never said that Amir and I had a conversation where we broke bread and we were together for hours. It was a very quick interaction. As I extended my right hand, he kissed my right hand hand. I place my hands on his shoulder. You can see this in the pictures that I have of each step along the way. In the video that the Daily Wire provided, they, they conveniently leave out 8 seconds showing my interaction with Amir. And I don't have that Video, because I, I took a video of, of kind of the overall scene. Not that project, that particular interaction. So they have this video, they own it, I don't have control over it. They won't release it to anybody. But they cut eight seconds out of it, which I think is a pretty important eight seconds. It shows that interaction. But regardless of the infinite details of the interaction, the interaction occurred on 28 May at site number three. Amir was a living boy. Amir was a living human being who was at the site, who I spoke to, who was there with a meager amount of scraps of food that he picked up from the ground. That can be clearly be seen by a all. So the third point of discussion in terms of what I saw, so each of the sites are surrounded on all four sides by a 20 foot berm. When I was engaging with Amir from inside the site, I am on the inside side of that berm, just like every contractor is. We are not allowed. We are. Are forbidden by the IDF to travel beyond the berm, beyond the wall, so to speak. We can't go outside of the sites. We can only stay on them or at the towers or on the top of the berms. When the crowd was leaving, there was the small group of individuals left, because as I've described before, with this large massive crowd of people coming in and typically at the end you have women and children that remain. Amir was amongst them. You also saw in the pictures and videos there was another boy that was wearing a black shirt that was with him too, that was a little bit older, he was amongst them too. And they go, and they're leaving the UG Solutions contractors at that point, shortly thereafter as they're saying bye to me and he looks back at me and they're going, and I, you know, distribution from my perspective was complete at that point. So I'm walking back towards the trucks to see when we're leaving. Shooting breaks out The IDF begins shooting. Now remember, this was only our second day of distribution. There was not a clear pattern of, you know, this was all new to us. I was at site number one the day before, and on this distribution day, I'm at site number three. So when the IDF began shooting, to me that seemed concerning because it was so close. The Markava tank that's parked outside of the exit to site number three, where these people were leaving for from, is very, very close to the site. So when Mr. Fay was talking about the difference between a machine gun or a coaxial machine gun, I'd say stay in your lane. You don't know what you're talking about. I was an infantry officer at a green beret for 25 years. I know the difference between coaxial dismounted machine guns, what fires off a tank and the Merkava tank. So please, anybody, when he talks about the difference between machine gun fire, at least give me that credibility. At least give me that. That I understand what I'm talking about. So. So the machine gun fire from the Merkava tank was very close. So I went up to the berm, stood 20ft high on this berm looking to the north. And it wasn't a kilometer away, as Mr. Chapenfay said. It was not a kilometer away. It was about 160 meters away. And if anyone in the military has qualified on their weapons system, you know that you qualify on your weapon system system with open sites, with the naked eye out to 300 meters. So can you see that? Absolutely. You can see that. And what I saw and what I'd like to further direct people's attention to is that if you look at the. If you watch the BBC interview between me and Mr. Jeremy Bowen, that was on, I think, the 28th or 29th July, somewhere around that timeframe, you will see it opens up with Jeremy speaking very eloquently. This may look like a battle scene, but it's not. This is a distribution site. That scene where Palestinians are lying on the ground and bullets are flying into them and hitting the road and flying over them. You could hear the bullets whizzing overhead. You can hear the bullets hitting into the crowd. That is the exact same intersection of the exit to site through where it tees into the Morocco corridor, and where you see them lying on the ground and you see that piece of elevated dirt, that is the Morong corridor, that location where that was filmed, where Palestinians are taking cover from machine gun fire, is that exact same location. That is the spot that I observed that day. And off camera, you don't see it. But the machine gun fire that you hear here, that is coming from the coaxial machine gun of the Merkava tank that's at the intersection that was firing into the crowd, firing into that crowd to keep them going west. So as this group was leaving, never have I said, I have never made the accusation that the IDF were waiting there with children in their sights, opening up with the machine gun at them. I think that there's probably some unethical, immoral things going on, but I've never made that claim. What I claimed was that the IDF were shooting into the crowd for crowd control, as they had demonstrated in the past at site number one. As this crowd is leaving and you have a machine gun that's firing, you can't see machine gun bullets fly through the air. So if I'm running down a road and there's a machine gun, I don't see the bullets and can stop and know. So you have women and children who are leaving the scene sight frantic because they've been hit with stun grenades and tear gas and pepper spray. And the UG Solutions contractors shooting in the air, as Chapin described, and they're running. And you have the Markava tank sitting outside the position that is shooting its machine gun, that cannot see the exit because of the berm next to the tank. And as that machine gun was shooting and these people were leaving and they ran into that hail of gunfire at that exact intersection that's described in that BBC video, people fell to the ground. People hit the ground. When Amir, the boy that I was looking at, when he fell to the ground, he didn't fall to the ground like someone that was taking cover or someone that was, you know, taking a knee and scared and getting down. He dropped to the ground. And when a 762 millimeter bullet hits a human being, it is. The drop to the ground is not something that, you know, it's like. It's not in the. Like in the movies where there's this dramatic, oh, you got. You dropped to the ground. And that's what happened to that young boy. And I am confident, I believe, and I firmly believe that his body, like hundreds of others, is buried in the dirt outside of that site. Because every time. Every time we did distribution, at the end of every distribution, the IDF would move through, escorted by tanks.

[Chapin Fay]

Tanks.

[Anthony Aguilar]

I have this on photo. I have videos of it. Escorted by tanks with their bulldozers to bulldoze the whole area. And they would do this after every distribution. So you also heard from a contractor that did an interview with CBS about two weeks ago, talking about how the sites, how he was directed as a truck driver to pick up body parts and would see the IDF burying the bodies outside of the site. That individual was not me. That was not me. That is an entirely different contractor. So it is my belief that Amir's body, like many, is buried in the dirt outside of site number three, and that the Safe Reach Solutions and GHF put great effort into using biometrics. And I also have concerns that DoD, US DoD assets were leveraged to do this. Based on the position of one of the people within SRS and his correspondence back to members of the Joint Special Operations Command. So this is being looked into. So with the assets that were applied to this to find a boy that looks like Amir, they put great effort into it. And I have a couple of questions that I'd like to ask them that I don't know if they'd ever answered, which I did ask them. Fox News Digital reached out to me and said, do you have a response? You have until 10pm and I responded to it in great detail and I got no response back from them, nor did they consider anything of what I said. Your platform and other platforms, whenever they have questions and they reach out to GHF for clarification or rebuttal, you always consider what they've said in your follow on questions or your questions to me or other. Why doesn't Fox Digital do that? Is it because Chapin Fei used to work for them? I don't know. That's for the audience to decide. But when you look at the outlets that they choose to give their information to, the Daily Wire, Fox News Digital, it raises questions. But if they found this boy, if they found Amir on 23rd August, they didn't come forward that he had been found until. Until the 4th of September. The Gaza humanitarian foundation does not have the authority to investigate, detain, hold or safekeep any Palestinian period. They do not have the authority. They are there as tourists. So what they did was kidnapping. What they did was then send the young boy out of the country. Country. And if Gaza is so dangerous that they had to take a young boy and get him out of the country, why don't they do that for every child? If Gaza is so dangerous, why can't they do that for every child?

[Ryan]

What they were saying is that they were worried, this is their wording, that they were worried that Hamas would find him and find him still being alive to be damaging to their messaging because it would undermine your credibility if he was found alive. So that they were worried that then Hamas would go out and kill him in order to kind of buttress your credibility. One, one thing that to me lends credibility to the GHF claim is that the family structure that they describe for Abood is similar to the family structure that we, as we understand it, with the mirror. And so, so I'm curious what your interactions with Amir's family have been like and what you can and would you be willing to speak with Abood in order to try to determine because Would you think if you could do a zoom call with Abood, that you'd be able to then determine to your satisfaction whether or not this is the same boy?

[Anthony Aguilar]

Oh, absolutely. And I have asked for that opportunity. And there's just some clear indicators of the young boy Abood. And I have no doubt. I have zero doubt at all that that young boy who they have is a Palestinian boy who was probably at one of the sites at one point, whose name is probably Abood. I have no doubt that young boy is who he is, but he is not Amir. The scar on his clavicle magically disappeared. A new scar on his forehead. He had dental work. His ears are different sights. I am quite confident that that is not Amir. And if I had the opportunity to speak to him, if anybody had the opportunity to speak to him, I think it would be clear. Why can nobody talk to him? You would think that they would want independent journalists there interviewing him and showing the world. But yet they provide us these grainy videos that they have. That. That ghf. When you ask ghf, what's your source? Well, we are. We're our own source. Okay, well, that's not very transparent. Mr. Chapin Fay, who wants transparency. Let others talk to him. Let me. I'm the only. So the other thing is that out of the people they had there, Chapin Fay, he's never met Amir. He wouldn't know the difference between Amir and the boy next door. He's never seen him. The aid workers, these humanitarian workers that they had, that they featured in this video, one of them is not a humanitarian worker. He's a contractor. He's a contractor who has been accused of assault, who's still working there. He's not an aid worker. He's never seen Amir either. The other person that's working at the site, she is not an aid worker. In fact, that individual. And I'm not gonna say her name because they accuse me of wanting to dock somebody, but anybody can look it up. That individual there, that is in the picture, not this particular picture, but the one with Abood, she was kicked out of the west bank by the IDF for being pro Hamas or having connections to Hamas. They kicked her out of the west bank. And then she shows up at IDF or GHF looking for a job. That person. Then you have the other, who I will mention her name because she's already been identified. But Jennifer Count, she's not a humanitarian aid worker. She was a career covert case officer in the CIA who now works for ghf. Who was the vice president of operations for Orbis that runs the engine software for the biometrics that GHF is using in country. Put all these pieces together. These aren't humanitarian workers, and none of them, none of them have ever seen Amir. Why not bring the contract that was with me on the site that day? Why not interview him?

[Crystal]

And, Anthony, just to go back to Ryan's question, there were additional questions raised about the timeline because I believe it was May 29 that you had the interaction with Amir that there's photographic evidence of. We just had May 28th. May 28th, there was a report that his. His mother or stepmother. I'm sorry, I'm not sure which one.

[Ryan]

Stepmother.

[Crystal]

Stepmother said that. No, no, he didn't go missing until July. So, you know, which obviously would not coincide with him having been killed on that day of May 28th. Did you speak with the family? What is your understanding of why there is that confusion and discrepancy?

[Anthony Aguilar]

I not only spoke with the stepmother, mother, and the uncle, but I also spoke with the mother. And again, these are all what we're assuming to be these relationships. There's no verification, but we're going with what's been said and who's been said out of all those individuals between the stepmother, the mother, and the uncle, no one has ever demonstrated to me verification that they even know or have a relationship with the boy. However, in taking their word for it and saying that dates, so to speak, speak the. The stepmother. So the overall situation is young Amir lived with his mother and father in Khan Yunis, the city, the city of Khan Yunis, when it was bombed and they were forced out. His father was killed and he was separated from his mother in the evacuation when they moved them all to the Khan Yunis camp. So not Khan Yunis city, but Khan Yunis UN Camp. A family took him in. The mother that says his stepmother is not a stepmother by any type of formal familial connection. They took him in on 28 May. He and his uncle, who I talked to, who I spoke with, were going to site number three to get aid to bring back to the family. At the intersection of the Morag corridor and the coastal corridor where the crowd was being held on that morning. When they started shooting at the crowd to hold them back. Back. The crowd panicked, and Amir was separated from his uncle. His uncle didn't make it through the this many people can come line. When the crowd was released, Amir did, and he was with the crowd when he showed up to the site. He had no one. There was no parent, no uncle, no family, no brothers, no siblings, no one. The boy in the black shirt that was there even said like this, he doesn't know where his family is. So the, the mother that had said that, well, he didn't go separate missing until 29 July. It's quite interesting to me that the mother that only GHF says they talked to, who is concealed, happens to say that the day that he went missing is the same day that they decided to then do their next smear campaign story. So that's one data point, but to the point she also said the stepmother also said, said that her son wasn't at site number three on the 28th of May. Okay, well, I have pictures and videos of the boy that I Talked to on 28 May. So if her son or who she's missing may have been abood was not at site number three on the 28th of May, well, then that's not Amir, and we're not talking about the same person. Furthermore, GHF has already used their UNO card, their reverse UNO card of, oh, the boy's still Alive Live on the 29th of May when they. I was sitting in your studio, as a matter of fact, when we talked about their claims, where they said, from the attorney, Mr. Dave Panzer, who says, oh, Mr. Aguilar claims that on the 28th of May he saw this young boy and that this young boy died. Well, here's a picture of the same boy the following day at the same site. He's not dead. So they already claimed that he was still alive then. And to be clear here, both of those pictures, the picture that I have of Amir and the picture that I have of the other boy they said was Amir are not from the same site. I took both of those pictures. I have the metadata. One picture was taken from site number three on 28 May. The other picture was taken at site number four on 2 June. There is no way, because of the restrictions in the movement to the military corridors between Rafah and Khan Yunis to Berish, that anybody, any Palestinian that was at site one, two or three, there's no way they could have been at site number four. So that is not the same boy. And them saying that they've already made that claim. So now twice, twice now they've said, well, Amir is still alive and here he is. And on both occasions it's two different boys. And I can tell you I have children. When you look at your children, you know, different like the boy that they have in their featurette is not Amir. It is not similar. Yes. And what I would like to keep in mind with everybody is that we're talking about an organization that is run by the CIA, that in it has an absolute motive to discredit me, me because of what I know and what I've seen and the facts that I have. The only way out they have from war crimes and prison and being investigated by the government is to make people believe that I'm not credible as a witness. That's their strategy. And what I would ask everybody to look through this deeply is that, look at the pictures. They don't look alike. They're not the same child. But even if it were, even if it were, it does not change the fact that now, now perhaps they say that that is. Okay, let's just say for sake of the GHF argument that that is Amir. Like we can biometric DNA testing. It's beyond a doubt that is him. Okay, got it. Well, they. Then what happened to the child that was killed at its site number three on 28 May, along with the others? Because a child and children and women were killed. So was it the boy in the black shirt then? Was it the other little boy and children that were there? So they keep coming out with these, oh, well, here's Amir. Okay, well then where is he? Oh, on the 29th of May, we talked to the mother and the mother said he was never there. But then here's the emir that she said and none of the names match. Okay, well then what seems to me is that there's not just one kid that's missing, there's two kids that are missing. And now they're coming out and saying like, oh, Amir's alive, here he is. Okay, well then there's potentially three kids that have been murdered and missing. So their argument makes no sense. And it is deeply, deeply concerning to me that they think that this parading of a boy they found alive, that that makes everything okay.

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[Crystal]

Good morning.

[Chapin Fay]

Welcome to today. From back to school to tackling your.

[Anthony Aguilar]

To do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season and every morning we're here to help you take it all off. As the forecast podcast called for football all across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts, and so much more.

[Ryan]

Wake up to where it's all happening.

[Crystal]

We're getting back to all of it and the best way to start is together.

[Ryan]

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC.

[Crystal]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Ryan]

But what's happening in America isn't just.

[Chapin Fay]

The cause of global upheaval.

[Ryan]

It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening, happening everywhere.

[Crystal]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Ryan]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

[Crystal]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Ryan]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Another argument that they've made that they say undermines your credibility is that you're a disgruntled employee who basically wanted to kind of shake them down and threaten them and, you know, threatened to take, take them apart or destroy them if they didn't meet your, meet your demands. I think, let's Play. I think F3 is from them.

[Anthony Aguilar]

As late as July 4, Mr. Aguilar.

[Chapin Fay]

Informed UG leadership that he had submitted.

[Anthony Aguilar]

A new application for work in Gaza. He wrote to the company on June 14, quote, I do not want to leave. I understand that my current contract as the JTOC operator is terminated, fine. But I can be put on a new contract.

[Chapin Fay]

If other personnel liking that or not.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Is the fear, then UG is being held hostage. I can be of huge value to this company and contract take advantage of me as an asset. Now, Mr. Aguiler threatened UG's solutions with retribution if he wasn't hired back. And so the next day, on July 15, he wrote that he could be, quote, your best friend or your worst nightmare.

[Chapin Fay]

Stop effing around.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Put me back to work and let's get this mission done.

[Chapin Fay]

In a June 21 message, Mr. Aguiler cited his personal family needs when begging.

[Anthony Aguilar]

To be reunited hire Mr. Aguilar ended the message with quote, figure something out.

[Chapin Fay]

Or I'm on a plane come Tuesday.

[Anthony Aguilar]

And the gloves are off. On May 28, Mr. Aguilar described a signal message distributed, a signal message praising UG solutions. And he said, quote, delivering and distributing 318.3 tons of humanitarian aid, aid to a starving and displaced population.

[Chapin Fay]

Wrote sentiment in the media, despite whatever.

[Anthony Aguilar]

People may think about the politics of the situation, Your presence, meaning UG's presence, GHF's presence is seen as a good thing. On the same day, Mr. Aguiler wrote to UG Solutions leadership, this is a very rewarding mission. I'm excited every day. These are the, these are the relevant times during which. Which Mr. Agbilar was claiming to have sent a memo to the company raising issues. On May 31, he shared a similar sentiment with his colleagues and he wrote to them, be proud, be humble. You are making a difference in the future of this region and geopolitics around the globe.

[Ryan]

So, I mean, don't they make a fair point that you threatened them that the gloves would come off if they didn't give you your, your, your job back? They didn't give you the job back and now the gloves are off. How do you respond to that?

[Anthony Aguilar]

The, the separate signal message on the gloves are off. And your worst nightmare was not pertaining to my employment. It was pertaining to my charges of assault against the UG Solutions operations officer, a gentleman named Mo Kattab, who assaulted me, who called me a, a quote unquote p. P word pussy, called me a coward. And after I resigned and slapped me and broke my phone, the conversation there with the gloves are off or that I can be your worst nightmare is that when the UG Solutions Chief Operations Officer, Corporate Mr. Nate Potter, contacted me, me to tell me we're going to pay for your phone, we're going to do an investigation. They even sent me this nice formal letter thanking me for my, for my hard work and telling me they were going to investigate. And I told them, before I leave Israel, we are going to sit down and we're going to have a discussion, the leadership, Mr. Khattab and me, and we're going to discuss one that, you know, I want an apology. You don't slap some. You don't. You don't. We're adults. You don't slap somebody because you don't Agree with them. Two, some type of consequence or action, he should have been fired or at least an investigation done. And their response to me was that we investigated and we agree that he didn't hit you that hard. That was their response. So my position to them was that you have an employee in a senior position that assaulted another employee, meaning he assaulting me, and you're doing nothing about it. You can address it here as a company or when I get home to North Carolina, I will be filing criminal charges against this individual and the company for negligence in allowing it to happen. You cannot get away.

[Ryan]

You seem also to be asking for your job back or to extend your contract.

[Anthony Aguilar]

So the contract job that in the discussion there is. I resigned on the. On the 13th. I resigned in writing Safe Reach Solutions upon my resignation. So the. So what? What Mr. Chapin Fay said that Safe Reach Solutions is like the logistics company. That. That's not true. Safe Reach Solutions is the prime contract. Safe Reach Solutions is the one that receives the money from the Israeli government, from Kogat to pay for each of the aspects. UG Solutions is under Safe Reach Solutions.

[Ryan]

Which, which, which they deny, by the.

[Crystal]

Way, that they receive Israeli funding.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Well, here's the thing though. Mr. Chapin Faye denies that GHF receives funding. GHF does not receive funding from Kogat. SRS directly receives the money from Kogat. And I know they do because we were there when we had our. On the second day of being in country when we were supposed to receive our weapons and they weren't there. I was partially in charge of trying to figure out how to get them. And what we had come to realize was that Kogat had not yet released the funds to Safe Reach Solutions for us to purchase the weapons. So Kogat, which is the Israeli government Ministry of defense, is absolutely 100% paying safe reach Solutions. They have a contract. They have a contract. So for Chapin Faye to say that GHF isn't accepting money. Okay, okay. GHF isn't. GHF can't accept any money. They have no agency as a thing. They don't exist. Safe Reach Solutions and he tried to play it off by this old logistics company. Safe Reach Solutions is the prime contract holder. Safe Reach Solutions and the Gaza Humanitarian foundation are owned by the same equity firm management company out of Wyoming. They are the same thing. Thing just of two different names. However, Safe Reach Solutions receives the money directly.

[Ryan]

Right, but not to derail that. But yeah, go back to the point.

[Anthony Aguilar]

So Safe Reach Solutions offered me and I have these messages as well, that they have, that they refuse to provide that. They offered me a job to stay. They said, you're valuable. We want to put you in a position of that Safe Reach Solutions to be in charge of the sites. And at that point I had said to them, well, there's a lot of things that got to be fixed 1, 1 including to wear this relationship with the IDF in terms of like who you said, we're their client. Well, that's, you know, we, we are, but you know, we, we still have some, we can still have control of things. So when they offered me on the, on the 13th safe reach solutions, after I tended my resignation, Kevin Solomon Sullivan, vice president of operations for Safe Brief Solutions, who was in country in Israel, offered me a job that was then verified through Safe Reach that yes, we want you to work for us. Then on the 14th, Iran Iraq War kicks off people, or Iran Israel war kicks off people forget that on the 14th when missiles start flying. Everything kind of went into this hold. We didn't know if we were going to continue. We didn't know if we were going to be allowed to go back into Gaza. We didn't know if the contract was going to continue. Everything went on hold. Safe Reach Solutions through UG Solutions said, while we're all waiting here, we want you to work for us. We're going to continue to pay you, we're going to continue to pay for your hotel, we're going to continue to pay for all your expenses. And then at the point when I said, I'm done, on the 22nd of June, an Israeli, or excuse me, an Iranian military missile hit the hotel next door to us and caused a lot of casualties. And I was like, I'm not hanging around in Beersheba waiting to get hit by a missile. I'm ready to go home. They then offered to pay for everything and then sent me this nicely worded letter asking me to consider working for them again. Their position of that I'm disgruntled is to discredit me by making think that I have this vendetta against GHF or UG Solutions. I don't have a vendetta against GHF or UG Solutions. For them to say that I'm disgruntled, I will agree with that. Genocide, the murdering of children, starving people disgruntles me. It absolutely does. I'm disgruntled at the fact that they've taken what could be a good mission in feeding people and have chosen to do it in a way that's Just. Just simply leading to the forced displacement of an entire population. The discussion of the sites, where the sites are located, 400 sites versus 3 sites. What Chapin Faded failed to mention is that out of their four sites, the one in central Gaza that's now shut down, means that the only existing sites, the two that exist, are all the way in the south, to the furthest possible part of the south you can get to. And that diagram of the resort, and I have a photo that I'm going to share with you all after this because it's breaking on another outlet, but I will provide it to you. There is a picture of the UG Solutions contractors on site in a big group photo with a sign that says Gaza Lago Trump 2028. And they're all on the site. The picture that the Boston Consulting Group, BCG picture of what the resort will look like. The Riviera, the resort, the Elon Musk Technical park, the Innovation center, in this beautiful rendering of a future Gaza. That thing is printed in about a 36 by 20 poster size and is on the wall of the operations center at Safe Reach Solutions, the operations center that runs operations into Gaza.

[Crystal]

Wow.

[Anthony Aguilar]

They know exactly what this is about.

[Crystal]

Yeah, please do, Senate. And by the way, BCG has distanced themselves from all of those activities. So we'll just put that out there. I want to give you some of the specifics of what GHF is asserting against you, some of the additional specifics. They say on June 13th you were informed your contract was terminated. They say you were removed from Gaza at that point and stayed in Israel while your movement back to the the US Was coordinated. They say you then immediately requested your job back on June 14. They say that you wrote to leadership, asked them to, quote, reconsider and offered that you would, quote, work in any capacity on June 15th. They say you demanded. We need to work something out for me to sign a new contract. And then they say you propose multiple courses of action to continue your work for the Foundation's subcontractor in a different capacity.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Yes. The conversation about the new contract. So is it a fact that my contract with UG Solutions as an independent contractor in the position of joint Tactile Operations Team Leader and Director of Operations, was that contract terminated? That's a fact. On 13 June, I rendered my resignation. I terminated my contract. Period. I have that. I have that documentation. UG Solutions never service me with any type of termination or you're terminated, or, or this and that, or whatever. And if they did, please, please, UG Solutions. If you fired me, please provide me with the documentation. I would love to have the documentation that you fired me. They refused to provide it. They don't have it because they didn't terminate me. The contract. Talking about re signing a new contract was a conversation between myself, Kevin Sullivan, Safe Reach Solutions Operations Director because. Because they, they asked me to reconsider and I told them my clear conditions for reconsidering would be one. The current person in charge of the contract in country, Mr. Johnny Taz Mulford, who is the national chapter president of the Infidels Motorcycle Club needs to go. If you want me to stay and continue to be a part of this operation. We cannot have an individual that proclaims to fight jihad and, and to annihilate all Muslims on earth be in charge of distributing food into Gaza. He needs to go. The quote or the statement about you're being held hostage was my statement to UG Solutions because their response to me was that we can't fire Mulford. Half the people here he hired, if we fire him, they'll go too. They're right. Because everyone he hired are chapter members of the Infidels Motorcycle Club. They're being held hostage by the leader of a motorcycle club. So when I gave them my conditions that I will stay and I will be in charge of the sites, I will dictate in terms of, you know, from an operations perspective how much aid we deliver, that we are going to start delivering water, that we will have a rules of engagement. Engagement. That there will be a standard operating procedures for how we do distribution. Under the condition that Johnny Mulford leaves. Well, nope, we can't have that. Can't have that happen. Can't get rid of him. So that my position on that was like, you know, you offered me to stay, you offered me in writing to stay and work for you and I've given you my conditions and you're unwilling to meet them, then I'm not going to stay here. I'm not going to work. Work for Safe Reach Solutions or UG Solutions or the GHF if they're going to continue with a. What at the time seemed to me ignorance and incompetence.

[Ryan]

Do you still have those messages that you sent to them that you can share?

[Anthony Aguilar]

Yes. Email. Email. June 16th. I sent a very long email describing exactly that to the leadership. Said, hey, here's my condition, the signal messages, all of the things that they have. Mind you, GHF has all of this and in their little 29th July and then the 4th of August presser. They provide none of it. They have it, but I will gladly provide that as well.

[Ryan]

Yeah, I know you went over a lot of this with Crystal and Saga earlier, but yeah, anything in additional that you have I think would be valuable context as this feud deepens.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Yeah. My position on it is that many may have seen and I think moments, well, I mean not moments, but probably an hour before it happened. I talked to you Ryan there in the studio when I went to protest Congress. I don't have a feud or an interest in Gaza Humanitarian foundation or UG Solutions or Seyfri Solutions. My concerns are that the United States government is funding a program through a private contractor, mind you, a private contractor where there's no impunity and no oversight from the United States government. But we've given them $30 million to be a part of what is clearly, clearly a part of the displacement plan of the population of Gaza as the IDF attack north from the Netzerim. They're doing it right now. Operation Gideon's Chariots 2, the bombing that right now in northern Gaza, phase one, alpha of phase three in the operation of clearing Gaza City is to destroy every high rise structure. That's exactly what they're doing. As all of the people that are being displaced out of the north, there's nowhere for them to go. There's nowhere, there's no encampments left in central Gaza. There's nowhere left for them to live. So they are all being forced down the coastal corridor, a 20 kilometer forced march, a death march if you will, down to the south to be received by the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, to be put in these encampments. And these encampments have no running water and no electricity and have no protections from the environment. They aren't run by anyone from the United nations that has any expertise in how to run an in displaced person's camp. And not only are these in displaced person, this one in displaced person's camp, not in locations where these people live. It's completely in the south. So now the entire population of Gaza is being concentrated in the south into an encampment. And that encampment is being guarded and run by the ghf, the United States government, The United States Congress cannot allow one, what is happening at all, all in Gaza with the war and how it's being fought. This is no longer a war. Two, that we are directly involved, that American taxpayers money is directly involved in the displacement scheme to displace the entire population. And this is not something that is for us to consider weeks or months from now. They are doing this every day. They will have before the 18th of September, September, when the one year edict for them to stop what they're doing based on what the ICJ has put in place. There won't be anything to go back and hold anybody accountable for because it'll all be gone by the 23rd of September. The day that the UN has established to be the Palestinian day, where Western leaders will stand at the podium and sit, say we recognize a Palestinian state. Israel's already banking on the fact that there's not going to be a Palestinian state to recognize. And the Gaza Humanitarian foundation is the executor of that real estate, if you will. The Gaza Humanitarian foundation, that is this cloak and dagger American conglomerate led by a Christian Zionist is who the United States government is giving tax dollars to. We're so complicit in this. It's so dirty. And anybody, I think anybody out there can take five minutes and listen to a GHF press conference and realize that they're getting sold a bunch of lies.

[Ryan]

And if they want, they can take a listen to the hour long interview that we did with, as you said, Mr. Chapin Fay, which, you know, we'll put a link to that. If you're watching this on YouTube, we'll put a link to that under there.

[Crystal]

We're actually, I think we're going to package it all together so that people have his interview and your interview all in one piece. And Anthony, we thank you very much once again for, for your time today.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Thank you both. I appreciate everything you do. And I hope, I hope that in the future Mr. Chapin Fe and the GHF would like to have a joint conversation. I would love that. I think there would be a lot of value in that. And I think that Americans need to be concerned in thinking that a humanitarian organization is conducting rescue missions and biometrics in Gaza as tourists. That's concerning.

[Crystal]

Yeah. Thank you again, Anthony, and we'll speak with you again soon.

[Anthony Aguilar]

Thank you. Y' all have a great day.

[Crystal]

All right, guys, thank you so much for sitting through both of those interviews. You can hear what Chapin Fay had to say, you can hear what Anthony had to say about both of their claims altogether and you know, take it in context also with the news that we cover on this show and that you guys are consuming every single day. So thank you so much for those of you who support the show and give us the opportunity to do these type of long form interviews. If you can become a subscriber BreakingPoints.com helps us support our journalism here. Ryan, any last thoughts from you?

[Ryan]

No, that was interesting back and forth and you know, I hope it's true that what Chape and Face says that they actually support allowing a flood of humanitarian aid and allowing the UN and other humanitarian aid groups back in to have him effectively saying that on the record cuts against, you know, what they've been arguing, you know, cut cuts against what Israel has been arguing in the ceasefire negotiations which drop site actually just, just right now published exclusively this the hundred word ceasefire proposal that Trump has and Trump has made that we're told that Israel is supportive of that you can check that out. But basically saying 60 day pause the all hostages and prisoners released, you know, within the, within the first day or so some agreed upon number of Palestinians would be released and that Trump himself would guarantee the next, you know, would guarantee that the cease fire would hold. While both parties negotiated in good faith toward a long term ceasefire, one of the critical sources of disagreement is the role of GHF and the role of UN and other humanitarian aid works in getting aid into Gaza. So if it's true that Chapin Fay as the spokesperson for GHF is saying that they are willing to step aside, then I don't understand how the United States and Israel can continue to demand that they stay if they're willing to go.

[Crystal]

Yeah, very, very interesting. I think a lot came out of that conversation to be parsed. Ryan, thank you. Thank you guys so much for watching. Sagra and I will be back with a normal typical breaking point show tomorrow. So we'll see you then.

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[Chapin Fay]

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