How these sisters turned their OCD into a thriving jewellery business

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Breaking the Rules – "How These Sisters Turned Their OCD into a Thriving Jewellery Business"

Date: March 31, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Celine Gelgec and Dr. Victoria Miller
Guests: Lindsay and Emily Stetzer, co-founders of Presently

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Overview

This episode features sisters Lindsay and Emily Stetzer, who share their lived experiences with OCD and how they channeled their challenges into Presently, a jewellery brand offering tangible reminders of effective OCD coping skills. Through candid storytelling, they address growing up with OCD, the power of community, and breaking the stigma—while providing clinicians with insight into patient realities.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Genesis of Presently (03:30–07:29)

• Need for Tangible Reminders:
  Both sisters struggled to recall therapeutic tools in moments of high anxiety, realizing there was a lack of supportive products in the market.
• Rejection of Toxic Positivity:
  When searching for meaningful reminders, all Emily found were "good vibes only" messages, which felt disconnected from her true experience.

  “All I found were phrases like good vibes only and choose happiness and think positively. ...if only I remembered to do that. Life changing.” – Emily (04:45)

• DIY Solution and Community Focus:
  The first bracelet bore the phrase “my thoughts are passing clouds,” inspired by a refrain from both therapy and Lindsay.
• Brand Mission:
  Presently aims to create tools that genuinely support people during tough moments and counter unrealistic positivity narratives.
• Sisters’ Roles:
  • Lindsay: Senior interior designer, passionate about sharing her OCD story to help others.
  • Emily: Art director, responsible for Presently’s initial visual identity and messaging.

Openness and Sharing as Advocacy (07:29–09:48)

• Lindsay’s Journey to Openness:
  Initially hesitant, she grew comfortable sharing her OCD openly—a way to distinguish herself from her OCD and invite others to do the same.

  “I feel like it just gives people, like, a comfort level when you share to, like, give them the space for them to share if they need to.” – Lindsay (08:13)

• Community Response:
  Since being public about their experiences, the sisters have received messages from people feeling understood for the first time.

  “People message us all the time, like, thank you so much for sharing. Literally almost cried after finding your page.” – Emily (09:34)

Lindsay’s Lived Experience with OCD (10:27–17:08)

• Early Signs & Family Dynamics:
  Lindsay's symptoms manifested in childhood as classic compulsions (light switches, ordering, magical thinking about harm prevention).
  • Noted genetic/familial element: Their father exhibited similar behaviors.
• Major OCD Onset: (11:32–14:49)
  Triggered in high school by existential fears following an out-of-body experience after marijuana use—leading to her first panic attack.

  “I remember I was sitting…on the bathroom toilet and I had this very out of left field thought, like, how do I know if I'm alive or if I'm dead? …That was also my first panic attack.” – Lindsay (11:57)

• Impact on Daily Life:
  Routine behaviors became difficult; fear of losing touch with reality dominated her thoughts.
  • Describes persistent existential OCD and the fear of “never wanting to go back to that place.”
• Personal Exposures and Community Support:
  Lindsay uses daily exposure to manage triggers (example: eating “Funhouse Pizza”), shares progress via videos, and relies on a supportive, informed community.

  “I'm very much…continuing to do exposures for myself every day, no matter what it is.” – Lindsay (16:06)

Emily’s Distinct Experience and Childhood Perspective (17:52–25:00)

• Separation Anxiety Dominance:
  • Emily describes chronic separation anxiety, refusal to attend school or sleepovers, and consistent need for reassurance/confession with parents.

  "I had separation anxiety. I refused to go to school...didn't wanna go sleep over my friend's house...call my mom at like three in the morning to pick me up." – Emily (19:10)

• Obsessions and Compulsions:
  • Early fears included possible future transgressions (smoking, stealing), sexuality, and breaking rules—always accompanied by a pressing urge to confess.
• Sisters’ Interplay:
  • Lindsay often comforted Emily, noting the intense distress and need for confession.

  “The need and the urge to, like, confess something just to make myself feel better. That is textbook OCD. But at the time, you know, we just thought it was anxiety.” – Emily (23:20)

• Retrospective Understanding:
  Emily recognizes now that her compulsions (confession, reassurance-seeking) were part of OCD, but at the time, they went unrecognized.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Meaningless Positive Affirmations:
  “All I found were phrases like good vibes only and choose happiness and think positively. ...if only I remembered to do that. Life changing.”
  – Emily (04:45)

• On Sharing as Empowerment:
  “Because I'm so open about myself, they just feel comfortable sharing what they're going through.”
  – Lindsay (08:13)

• On Family and Diagnosis:
  “[My dad] like told me in the car once, he was like, 'I've done that and like, I know that and I've experienced that.' So like, he didn't say that he has OCD, but he has OCD.”
  – Lindsay (11:19)

• Existential OCD in Adolescence:
  “How do I know if I'm alive or if I'm dead? Just that fear of like the unknown scared the shit out of me.”
  – Lindsay (12:08)

• Self-Exposure in Recovery:
  “I just sent Emily a video today of me eating pizza because I had a fear...I'm very much...that's like something that I continually do exposures for myself every day.”
  – Lindsay (15:49)

• On Need to Confess:
  “The need and the urge to, like, confess something just to make myself feel better. That is textbook OCD.”
  – Emily (23:20)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 03:30-07:29 | Story behind Presently and its purpose | | 07:29-09:48 | Advocacy through openness and community responses | | 10:27-17:08 | Lindsay’s OCD journey and day-to-day strategies | | 17:52-25:00 | Emily’s upbringing, anxiety, and emerging insight |

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Tone and Conclusion

Throughout, the sisters bring warmth, vulnerability, and a mix of humor and raw honesty. The hosts maintain a supportive tone, drawing clinical parallels for their audience. The episode closes with both the value of lived experience in understanding OCD and the message that turning pain into purpose and community can be profoundly healing—for both clients and clinicians.

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Transcript

[A]

This is Breaking the Rules, a show for mental health professionals designed to help you build confidence in treating obsessive compulsive disorder. I'm Dr. Celine Galgett and I'm a clinical psychologist who works extensively with OCD.

[B]

And I'm Dr. Victoria Miller, but you can call me Tori. And I'm a clinical psychologist who works with young people, including those with ocd. Through our shared professional experience experience, we've found that effective treatment of OCD requires commitment, creativity and the recognition that things can sometimes get a little messy.

[A]

They sure can. We want to empower clinicians to be able to work with their patients in new ways to treat OCD with confidence. One of the biggest bugbears that both clients and clinicians have is when clients struggle to implement ERP between sessions. Clients often say that they forget the key messages in between sessions. In today's episode, we chat with Lindsay and Emily Stetzer, who are sisters with lived experience of OCD and co founders of Presently, a jewellery brand which aims to provide reminders of key messages pertinent to erp. Lindsay is a senior interior designer at Gensler in New York City and has always been passionate about sharing her OCD experience experiences with others. She has found that the more she shares, the more people who are silently suffering can find the help they need. Lindsay has combined her personal passion for jewelry making and mental health advocacy and turned it into a brand that has been featured in Forbes, PopSugar and Wondermind. After struggling with her OCD during the height of the pandemic, her sister Emily realized that in the thick of anxiety, she needed a tangible reminder of the tools her therapist had taught her. After realizing what she was looking for did not exist, she and her older sister Lindsay decided to create their own. Emily's goal is to combat the toxic positivity culture that exists in the retail industry and to teach others how to embrace all of themselves, the good, the bad and the in between, so they can better cope with life's difficult situations.

[B]

In this episode, you'll hear both Lindsay and Emily share their personal experience experiences with ocd, particularly their experiences of growing up with ocd. The Steps Assisters talk about the experiences of being diagnosed with OCD and how important it has been for them to build community and utilise the support of others along their way. Let's get started.

[C]

Hi everyone.

[A]

Welcome to the next episode of the Breaking the Rules podcast show. Tori and I are really excited to have with us today, all the way from New York, Lindsay and Emily Stetzer, who are sisters dealing with ocd. Welcome to the show, guys.

[C]

Thank you for having us.

[D]

Thank you so much for having us.

[B]

Yeah, it's really good to meet you both.

[D]

It's so great because we usually do podcasts with people that are based in the US and so it's just nice to know that people halfway across the world deal with the same things that we deal with. So it's really nice to be here. Yeah, it's very true.

[B]

And I mean, this is one of the main reasons why Celine and I wanted to start the podcast was because we had this really strong sense that there was this community here in Australia that like, really wanted to connect with other stuff that, you know, is happening in the OCD space and wanted to have a voice. And so it's great that we can connect this way.

[A]

Yes. Tell us a little bit about yourselves.

[D]

Lindsey, you want to start?

[C]

Yeah. So I am Lindsay. I am 35, double checking. I'm the older sister and I am an interior designer to commercial interior design as my full time job. And then we started Presently, and it's become our passion project.

[B]

Our listeners probably don't know what presently is. Can you tell them a little bit about it?

[D]

Yeah. So Presently is a bracelet brand that Lindsey and I started. We have struggled with, like, when you're in a really anxious state, just like remembering the things that your therapist taught you. Like when you're in the therapist's office, you feel great. You're like, yes, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. And then the second you get home and your mind is filled with God knows what, it's like, feels impossible to recall all the things that you learned.

[C]

Like, everything else just flies out the window. You don't even have those tools. Like, you can't even remember the things that you kind of learned at your therapy appointment, like a minute ago. Even, like after you just stepped outside, it's like your anxious mind kind of just takes over, Right?

[D]

And so we had looked, like online for a bracelet. Like, we were thinking a bracelet might be nice to have something to remind us of the things our therapist says. But we couldn't find anything online. And I honestly, I couldn't even think of, like, what that one phrase would be. And so when I searched online for it, all I found were phrases like good vibes only and choose happiness and think positively.

[A]

Choose happiness.

[D]

Yeah. Like, if only, if only, if only I remembered to do that. Life changing. So because it didn't exist, we were like, we should make it. Like, I wanted to make one myself. Cause this was during COVID where everyone was making those, like, beaded bracelets with, like, the letters on them. And I was like, okay, I'll just, like, make up my own phrase. The phrase that I started with was, my thoughts are passing clouds, which was something that Lindsay had taught me even before I went to therapy. And then when I started therapy, my therapist taught. Had said the same thing. So I was like, this must be helpful. Like, I think that, you know, she.

[C]

Actually is going to therapy her sister. Yeah.

[D]

And I actually. I really did like that phrase because it helped me sort of like, it almost like a weight was, like, lifted off my shoulders after realizing I didn't have to, like, buy into every single thing my brain was telling me. And so I. I was like, all right, I'll make a beaded bracelet like that. My sister was making jewelry at the time. She's very, like, crafty, and she likes to do things with her hands, especially when we're both living at home during COVID to pass the time. And so we sort of just, like, had this idea, like, maybe other people would enjoy this and find this helpful. So, yeah, that's the spiel behind our brand presently, and that's why we're here. And then I'll just go and introduce myself a little bit more.

[A]

Yeah, please.

[D]

So I'm Emily. I'm the younger sister. I just turned 30, and as my daytime job, I am an art director at an advertising agency. And I have a passion for creating things visually and digitally online. And so because of that, like, when we first had this idea, not knowing if it was serious or if we were really going to do this, and we weren't just joking about it. I, like, made a website and a logo and everything. And so I think that part of me is a reason why I wanted to, like, dive into this. And then Lindsay, on the other hand, she's always been vocal about her experience.

[C]

Yeah, that's something where, like, I. So I've been dating, and, like, sometimes the first thing that, like, hi, I ocd. And I'm like, you don't have to say that on the first date. You know, like, just be natural. Right? And I'm like, but that is my natural self. That is me. So it's. It's interesting. And that's a whole nother topic. But, yeah, I always just like sharing because I feel like it just gives people, like, a comfort level when you share to, like, give them the space for them to share if they need to. I just find, like, in general, it's like, because I'm so open about myself, they just feel comfortable sharing what they're going through or even just like, it gave them, like, a peace of mind that someone else is going through something.

[B]

Have you always been that open about ocd, or is it something that you have grown into?

[C]

I think I've grown into it with all of the years and years of therapy and scary moments of my life. Like, I've used that. I almost get. Maybe now I'm just realizing it. Maybe I'm using that. It's like a way to kind of, like, show the difference between myself and ocd.

[D]

If something comes out of your mouth that you're, like, people are, like, confused about, it's almost like you want them to know that you have ocd.

[C]

Kind of, yeah. I mean, it's like, I don't use it. I have ocd, so, like, just be prepared. It's like, I have ocd, and that's why I'm a little. I feel like it adds interest, it adds depth to me, so why not add that?

[B]

Have you two met other people with OCD along the way?

[D]

Yeah, so I actually. And I don't think I really found this out until after we started presently, but I've had friends and coworkers, like, come up to me and be like, guess what? I was just diagnosed with ocd. And I just think the stories that we tell and the experience, and we're like, this was OCD and we didn't know it was ocd. Like, that helps people realize that there could be something else going on besides just anxiety. And through, like, social media especially, people message us all the time, like, thank you so much for sharing. Literally almost cried after finding your page. Just because we share the most random things, and it's so personal, and people are like, I had no idea anyone else had thoughts like this.

[A]

It takes a lot of bravery and courage to be able to share those stories, but also, it's so empowering and validating. And that's what you're hearing. You know, you're hearing that side of people. Just, you know, there's like, a collective sigh of relief and happening when people hear these stories. So it's amazing that you guys are being vulnerable and putting yourselves out there, but also in such a meaningful way, too.

[C]

And I feel like we've constantly learned new things about ourselves, that there's things that I just, like, realized about myself about, like, sharing that I have ocd, you know, like, it's like a fun fact. That's literally my fun fact. I Just realized, I love that.

[A]

Lindsay, are you comfortable with sharing a little bit about your OCD trajectory and lived experience in terms of like, when were you first diagnosed? What was that like?

[C]

I was diagnosed when I was in high school, but I had it for a, as long as I can remember before that. And I had, I like say it's kind of like your typical OCD symptoms where I was turning on and off a light switch a certain amount of times to prevent something bad from happening to me or my, my family or lining up things in a certain order again. That fear of like something bad could happen if I don't do it and having that power that I was able to control all those things. And our dad, I've seen him do tapping the steering wheel and certain things. And he like told me in the car once, he was like, I've done that and like, I know that and I've experienced that. So like, he didn't say that he has ocd, but he has ocd.

[D]

So he was the one that kind of like diagnosed, you remember?

[C]

Right? But that was when I was younger, so then it was in high school, my junior. I was going through a lot like anyone else in high school. There's like a lot happening socially and applying to colleges and like the whole idea that you're like going to move out of your parents house soon and potentially go away to school and all these things. And also like trying new things. Drinking and tried smoking marijuana for the first time and had a body experience with it. And I don't remember how many months later, but all of a sudden I was, I remember exactly where I was. I remember I was sitting on, in the bathroom, on the bathroom toilet and I had this very out of left field thought, like, how do I know if I'm alive or if I'm dead? Just that fear of like the unknown scared the shit out of me. And I'm literally sitting on the toilet and like I could just feel like my legs go numb. And I didn't realize but like that was all those, that when that happened, that was also my first panic attack. So like simultaneously I was dealing with this crazy fear and this unknown fear for just the scariest fear to have and experiencing this panic attack that literally took over my body. And that was something that I've never thought about really in that intense way and like questioning way. And that's kind of when I first had existential ocd. But I didn't know, we didn't know. And I was talking to my mom about it, like When I started to go to therapy was when all this started to happen. So they didn't call it existential ocd. I think only till recently, like, that's been a new thing. Right. It's so crazy to me to think that, like, when I went to my therapist, they knew that that was a part of ocd, but there was never, like, a term, term death. Yeah. So I didn't see it as OCD because it wasn't like, fear of something happening. It was like, how do I know if I'm thinking this? Or, like, it was just a very extreme thought is the scariest moment. And from there, like, I had an incredible family that, like, supported me and helped me get the resources that I needed to get everything changed. After that, my whole world changed. Everything that I knew be normal activities became really hard to do. And, like, simply just drinking or eating or changing my clothes, I couldn't do because I was scared I was going to change my reality. And when I started to feel somewhat okay, my mind would start going back there and it started to become this, like, what if I go to, like, a parallel universe? Or what if I. All these, like, thoughts and feelings came in. So, like, I always tried to avoid getting to that point when I was sitting on the toilet because it was like, the worst. So ever since then, it's like, I never want to go back to that place where I'm, like, feel like just questioning everything and not being able to get the certainty.

[A]

That insight is so precious. And thank you so much for being so vulnerable. I think one thing we often hear, like clinicians say, is, why can't people just move this along? Like, what keeps them stuck? We've gone over this so many times and so on and so forth. So I think to hear that real, raw experience of what? Terror. It's terror, right? What it actually does and how fearful we are, I think is something, because you never really know what someone's going through until you go through it yourself. And as much as we try and bring empathy in when we're working with our clients, I think we can take that for granted, you know, because it's like, what's holding our clients back? And it's like, well, this is exactly it. This is what's holding people back. But I imagine, too, it would have been really motivating for you at the same time to go, I don't want to go back there. What do I need to do to not get back there?

[C]

And that's kind of like what I do every single day. It's like, I just had this. I just sent Emily a video today of me eating pizza because I had a fear. It's just like the connection back to that moment and feeling stuck in it and feeling like I'm not able to, like, feel okay is what scares the shit. So it just said like, funhouse Pizza on the sleeve of the pizza. There's nothing on the name of the box. Funhouse Pizza. And automatically mine goes. It's like, I'm gonna be in a funhouse and I'm not gonna be able to get out. And that was just me curiously going to figure out what kind of pizza it was. Hungry and I just wanted to eat pizza. And pizza looks so good. I literally walk in and I was like. I walked out and I turn around and I walk back in, I get two slices, I walk upstairs and I eat them and record the video to do it. So I'm very much. That's like something that I continually to do exposures for myself every day, no matter what it is. But it's just I laugh too about it. And like my co workers, they know because I share that I have ocd. So they know and they can be there for me, but they also know if I'm seeking reassurance, they know not to give in. So having that support system around you and building that is really good.

[A]

Thank you so much for sharing that. Hey, Tori.

[B]

Hi, Celine.

[A]

Did you know that we run our own courses here at Melbourne Wellbeing Group?

[B]

I did know that. In fact, it's one of my favourite things we do here because it's a great way to help psychologists and and other clinicians learn more about ocd, which.

[A]

Means we get to help more people. So if you're a clinician who works in mental health and you're interested in learning from us, then get in touch.

[B]

For more information, head to www.melbournewellbeinggroup.com.au and click on the webinars and books tab.

[A]

Alrighty, back to the show.

[B]

What about you, Emily?

[D]

So my experience is very, very different. And it's funny that Lindsay and I are in separate places because I feel like when we're sitting next to each other and she starts to cry, I get very uncomfortable. So I'm sure she's so happy that she's like, far away from me right now in a different room, but I just wanted to call that out before I started my own story, because that's exactly. I know what she's thinking.

[C]

You know how I'm feeling.

[D]

Yes, I know how she's feeling. And I think that that's just like, I know now, like, what she's going through. But at the time, all I remember is, and I'm five and a half years younger than Lindsay, so when she was going through that tough time, I was in elementary school, and I just remember her asking, like a ton of questions and making our parents repeat things. And so, like, we both have this view of each other during that time period. But, like, from my perspective, I didn't relate to what she was going through, but I was going through my own stuff. So when I was younger, you know, I had separation anxiety. I refused to go to school, like, for most of middle school, at the end of the elementary. Actually, there was a time in elementary school where I was refusing to go and then again, middle school. Yeah, right. From Lindsay's perspective.

[C]

So she knows that crying and having to hold her hand and walk her into school.

[D]

Yes, that one year we were in the same school. So for all I knew, like, I was just anxious. And then it sort of turned into, like, I didn't wanna go sleep over my friend's house that lived down the street, and I had to call my mom at like three in the morning to pick me up. Like, it was that sort of separation anxiety. And then, you know, as I look back, I sort of remember worrying about really random things, like if I was gonna smoke cigarettes as an adult or if I was gonna end up stealing things or shoplifting. And then I would have to confess those thoughts to my mom. And there were other things, like being really afraid to do something that my parents wouldn't want me to do. So, like, my anxiety was mostly separation anxiety from my mom and my dad and not wanting to sleep over and confessing to, you know, having to watch an R rated movie with my friends because I was like, peer pressured into it. Like, I remember literally sitting on my friend's couch with my hands over my eyes being, I just can't. I can't watch this. And then I'd have to go home and like, confess to my family again. And it was just like, a lot of that stuff. And at the time, none of us thought it was ocd. Like, I was just anxious and I just, I was anxious about breaking the rules and no pun intended. And so what I was saying before is, like, my perspective of Lindsay was she was just asking all these questions that made no sense. And we would be up all night, like, trying to get her to go to sleep. And then from her perspective, it was me in my room every Night crying, like, whimpering.

[C]

It was me hearing the whimpers because I would be. I was closer to her. I mean, sometimes my mom heard first.

[D]

Our doors were kind of.

[C]

Yeah, I'd hear her, and I almost, like, had, like, an unknowing. Like, whenever she was on the verge of crying, I remember going in, and I'm just, like, that kind of person that makes sure everyone's okay. So always making sure. Is everything okay.

[D]

Oh, right. And then at some point in middle school, another thing that I had a thought about was, what if I'm attracted to women and what if I. I'll never know, like, who I'm supposed to be with? And in middle school, like, I feel like that's a pretty normal thing to go through, except nobody talks about it.

[C]

I had that experience and had the same. Do you remember that? Me telling you.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you. And. And so, like, that was another thing where I was, like, sort of had to, like, confess this thought that I had or this fear that I had. And so, you know, Lindsay came in the room and was like, I've experienced that before. Like, I don't even remember what you said, but it was, like, things like that where.

[C]

But that. The way that she, like, confronted. I guess, because it's not. Because I'm thinking, like, I didn't even think that was part of ocd, but it's not part of ocd. It's just part of being a human being. Right. Like, it's just.

[D]

Right. The OCD part is what you do after you have that thought. It's like the constant asking for reassurance or checking your feelings, checking your body, checking your memory, like, things like that. But again, at the time, I didn't have ocd, and I was just anxious and I was going through all these uncomfortable things in middle school and, like, having to, like, share embarrassing things with my mom.

[A]

Like, even when you didn't want to.

[C]

Every night it was something new.

[D]

Exactly. I didn't want to, but in my brain was like, you need to tell this. You need to get this off your chest. So, yeah, just confessing really uncomfortable things that.

[C]

But you were describing the feeling of, like, what you were. What you felt like that you had to get it off your tongue.

[D]

Oh, yeah. So, like, now, looking back at it, the need and the urge to, like, confess something just to make myself feel better. That is textbook ocd. But at the time, you know, we just thought it was anxiety, maybe. I went to therapy, like, once, but I probably refused to go back. And so you Know, as I got older in high school, it sort of like died. Died down a little bit. I think it was still there. Like, there were certain things that I was still anxious about, like drinking and needing to tell my mom. If I, like, I think in high school, I got a hickey once and I, like, literally had to be like, mom, I need to show you something.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And just, like, why?

[C]

It was everything and everything.

[A]

It would have felt.

[C]

So every night there was a new thing.

[D]

It's so embarrassing. And normal kids would be like, I'm just gonna put makeup on it. No. I had to be like, oh, crap. I just need to confess this.

[C]

But it wasn't. And I just wanted to chime in, like, because I'm just sharing it from my perspective. Like, it took so much out of Emily, like, every night. I mean, she has asthma. So, like, she would literally get herself so upset about it. She was, like, visibly just upset all this time. And, like, I just remember, like, having her in it being that much of a thing that she felt so strongly that she needed to share. Because if she didn't, she'd be like.

[D]

I'd explode or something.

[C]

Yeah, it was almost like that intense.

[D]

Yeah. I guess I never really thought about that intensity of it.

[C]

I always just like, feel that she.

[D]

Her, like, you could feel the intensity of it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Thanks for joining us for part one of our chat. Join us next episode as we conclude the conversation.

[A]

You'Ve been listening to Breaking the Rules, a show for mental health professionals designed to help you build confidence in treating obsessive compulsive disorder.

[B]

This podcast is brought to you by Melbourne Wellbeing Group, a psychology practice based in Melbourne with a special focus on treating OCD. To find out more, head to our website, Melbourne WellbeingGroup. All one word. That's Melbourne WellbeingGroup.com this podcast was made.

[A]

With strategy and production support from Wavelength Creative. To make sure you don't miss an episode of Breaking the Rules, be sure to subscribe to or follow the show in your podcast app. And while you're there, leave us a five star review. It really helps others find the show. I'm Celine Galgett.

[B]

And I'm Tori Corey Miller.

[A]

And we'll be back next episode with more reasons to convince you to get messy, have fun and break the rules.