Readiness, Uncertainty, and Behaviour Change in OCD Treatment

Summary

Breaking the Rules: A Clinician's Guide to Treating OCD

Episode Summary: Readiness, Uncertainty, and Behaviour Change in OCD Treatment

Hosts: Dr Celin Gelgec and Dr Victoria ("Tori") Miller
Date: February 9, 2026

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Overview of the Episode's Main Theme

This episode centers on the critical—but often misunderstood—concepts of readiness, uncertainty, and behavior change in OCD treatment. Dr Gelgec and Dr Miller discuss how both clinicians and clients frequently conflate feelings of anxiety, uncertainty, and trepidation with the actual readiness to engage in therapy or exposure tasks. They explore the pitfalls of waiting to "feel ready," the necessity of embracing messiness and discomfort, and the importance of correctly labeling emotions in the therapeutic process.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. "Ready" Is Not a Feeling—It's a Decision

[04:53–06:07]

• Dr Gelgec recounts hearing on another podcast that "ready is not a feeling, it’s a decision," which she describes as “mind-blowing,” especially after 15 years of practice.
• The hosts reflect on how both clinicians and clients repeatedly state, “I don’t feel ready,” but rarely pause to examine what they actually mean.

“Ready is not a feeling, it’s a decision.” — Dr Gelgec [05:02]

• They highlight how the phrase is commonly used as a catch-all for a host of emotional experiences (fear, nervousness, uncertainty, dread).

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2. The Pursuit of Certainty & the Myth of Complete Readiness

[06:07–10:24]

• Many individuals, especially those with OCD, have a “wish, fantasy, or desire” for an unambiguous feeling of certainty before starting something, particularly exposure tasks in therapy.
• Dr Miller notes, "That lovely, satisfying, peaceful sort of feeling…doesn’t stay for long. But we’re, I think, when we’re talking about ‘are we ready,’ we’re talking about a wish for clarity and certainty." [07:17]
• Both agree: there will never be a perfect feeling of readiness. Discomfort is intrinsic to being human and part of the process.
• The hosts use a Harry Potter analogy to illustrate how uncomfortable and confusing it can be to feel many emotions at once — yet this is normal, not pathological.

---

3. Clinician and Client Difficulties with Uncertainty

[10:24–13:15]

• Not only do clients feel stuck by uncertainty and a lack of readiness, but clinicians do as well.
• They discuss common feelings of being "stuck," frustrated, or challenged alongside clients.
• Techniques to move forward:
  • Motivational Interviewing
  • Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT): Emphasizing willingness and accepting discomfort.
  • Values-Guided Action: Returning to client values to motivate action despite fear or uncertainty.

“Feel the fear, but do it anyway.” — Dr Gelgec [11:58]

• Therapy doesn’t mean clients haven't tried before; therapy gives them tools rather than relying on willpower or avoidance.

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4. Importance of Language: Helping Clients Accurately Name Emotions

[13:15–16:00]

• Language matters: Allowing clients to say "I don't feel ready" can prevent them from accessing and labeling the real emotions (e.g., "I feel afraid" or "I feel excited").
• Naming and feeling: Not just identifying the emotion, but actually allowing oneself (and clients) to sit with and feel it, rather than staying in the head/intellectual realm.
• Dr Miller describes:

  “When we’re able to get our clients to tune into those things…to notice them without judgment, it really helps with acceptance.” [14:01]

• Points out common confusion between excitement and anxiety—physiologically similar but emotionally different; precise labeling can open new doors to insight and change.

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5. A Practical Framework for Bridging Thoughts, Feelings, and Action

[17:03–18:11]

• Dr Gelgec introduces a learning model:
  • Share experience and thoughts
  • Reflect and distinguish thoughts vs. feelings
  • Move into experiential/ bodily feelings
  • Finally, proceed to action/intervention
• Skipping steps shortchanges emotional processing and successful behavior change.

---

6. Common Thought and Feeling Confusions in Clients

[18:24–20:50]

• The clinicians list typical phrases confusing thoughts and feelings:
  • “I feel fat” (thought, not emotion)
  • “I feel dumb,” “I feel ugly,” or similar self-critical statements
  • In OCD: “I feel like a bad person,” “I feel like a murderer/pedophile,” “I feel dirty”
• Importance: Distinguishing these opens up clinical insight into what truly drives OCD symptoms—for example, underlying shame, guilt, or disgust and corresponding physical sensations (e.g., “groinal response”).

“If we’re not weaving [the feelings and sensations] into our exposure tasks, we’re missing a whole chunk of what could be driving those exposures.” — Dr Gelgec [20:45]

---

7. Beyond Symptom Management: Richness and Depth in Therapy

[20:56–21:47]

• Once comfortable with ERP and rapport, clinicians can dive deeper to explore the emotional roots (schema work, rescripting early emotional experiences).
• This enhances therapy beyond symptom management, enriching the therapeutic process and outcomes.

---

8. Final Thoughts and Takeaways

[21:47–22:26]

• Clinicians are encouraged to move beyond manualized treatments, be curious, and explore the emotional and cognitive landscape with clients.
• Don’t be afraid to sit with both thoughts and feelings, even if it feels “messy”—that’s where meaningful, lasting change occurs.

“Have the confidence to step away from the manualized treatment and, you know, observe in the room, be curious, be transparent, explore. There are just really rich and interesting but also effective places that we can go.” — Dr Miller [21:56]

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Ready is not a feeling, it’s a decision.” — Dr Gelgec [05:02]
• “That lovely, satisfying, peaceful sort of feeling…doesn’t stay for long. But we’re, I think, when we’re talking about ‘are we ready,’ we’re talking about a wish for clarity and certainty.” — Dr Miller [07:17]
• “Even a lion gets scared.” — Dr Miller [08:14]
• “Feel the fear, but do it anyway.” — Dr Gelgec [11:58]
• “When we’re able to get our clients to tune into those things…to notice them without judgment, it really helps with acceptance.” — Dr Miller [14:01]
• “If we’re not weaving [the feelings and sensations] into our exposure tasks, we’re missing a whole chunk of what could be driving those exposures.” — Dr Gelgec [20:45]
• “Have the confidence to step away from the manualized treatment and, you know, observe in the room, be curious, be transparent, explore.” — Dr Miller [21:56]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:53: Introduction of “Ready is not a feeling, it’s a decision.”
• 06:07: Unpacking use of "ready"—what feelings are being substituted?
• 07:17: The fantasy of certainty and its role in OCD.
• 11:58: Using values-guided action and accepting discomfort.
• 13:15: Why language about readiness matters; naming emotions.
• 17:03: Four-step model for moving clients from thought to action.
• 18:24: Examples of common thought-feeling confusions.
• 20:45: Ensuring exposures target core feelings, not just thoughts.
• 21:56: Encouragement to move beyond protocols and be curious in therapy.

---

Conclusion

Drs Gelgec and Miller provide a lively, insightful conversation full of practical takeaways for clinicians and anyone invested in effective OCD treatment. By challenging common misconceptions about readiness, emphasizing the human experience of uncertainty, and providing frameworks for integrating thoughts and feelings, they encourage therapists to foster deeper, more transformative change.

Don’t wait to “feel ready”—embrace the messiness, name the feelings, and help clients act in line with their values, even when it’s hard.

Transcript

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[E]

Hi, I'm Dr. Celine Gelgich.

[C]

And I'm Dr. Tori Miller. Welcome to Breaking the Rules. On Breaking the Rules, we talk about all things OCD.

[E]

Obsessive compulsive disorder. OCD impacts up to 1 to 2% of the population. We are here to provide not just education, but to inspire clinicians, families and people who are impacted by OCD to be able to access the treatment they need in order to get better.

[C]

Catch us every fortnight wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, mate. Hey.

[E]

How's it going? How very Australian of us. True story. Not that it'd be fake, but anyway, when we last. Well, the only time I've ever been in America was probably about 10. What year are we at? 10 years ago now. The first day we got there, I think I've told you this story before. We went to get like SIM cards and stuff and whatever. Anyway, I was like, oh, you're Australian. And I was like, yeah, she'll be right. And I was like, fully, like, exaggerating it. And my husband just turned around and he was like, it's already on. You don't need to turn it on. For the love of God, stop speaking like that. Sorry. Oh my gosh. We don't realize how like, twangy our accent is until you head out of Australia.

[C]

I know. I do remember, actually, when I was on. On holiday in Italy once, and it was like the first. I think I've told this story before, actually. The first time that I traveled overseas to Europe, but with money, you know, because, like, I'd been there before as, like a, you know, as a povo student, you know, the backpacking thing. And this is the first time I was, like, staying in hotels, and I didn't have a big, huge rucksack on my back. I had a handbag, you know, and I was like, you know, eating in the nice restaurants, you know, and stuff. And so I was wearing nice clothes, carrying a hamburger, and I just felt like I was just like one of.

[E]

You know, one of the locals.

[C]

One of the locals, you know, until someone at the hotel was talking to his girlfriend. Long story short, I was there for a conference, and we had a spare pass, and who's his girlfriend, who was studying, was going to grab the pass. So we're trying to figure out how to meet. Right. And how would. How would she know me? Like, out the front of this conference to come get the past from me.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

The person from the hotel, her boyfriend said, well, it's so obvious. It's her. She's the obvious. Australia.

[E]

Oh, that's brutal. So obviously Australia, I'm a local.

[C]

Just, like, so, like, suave and sophisticated. Like all of you Italians.

[E]

Yes. Oh, my goodness.

[C]

Yeah, she's one with the freckles, the red hair, you know, the really Aussie accent. Yeah. She's wearing. She's wearing thongs.

[E]

She's wearing sunscreen. Yeah, that's right.

[C]

And a hat.

[E]

The amount of mortified looks you get when you're putting sunscreen on, it's hilarious. It's like, dude, we burn here. Okay, there's a hole.

[C]

There he is.

[E]

Anyway, topic of today. Topic of the day today. This one blew my mind when I heard it. Okay, so context. When I heard this on a podcast and Tori and I were talking about what we're going to cover today, I was like, how did I not realize this?

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

As a clinician of 15 years, how did I not realize this? Because it's something. It's a phrase that we all use.

[C]

I use it. Yep.

[E]

And our clients use, and we don't really even think about it. And so someone on a podcast said, I can't remember where I heard it. They said, ready is not a feeling, it's a decision. Yeah. And I was like, wow, that's so true. We need to talk about that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

In the bigger scheme of. In the bigger topic of thoughts versus feelings, because we get that confused all the time.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think. I think it comes up a lot when we're talking about, you know, just behavior change in general. I mean, we're going to talk about in the context of OCD today especially, you know, that tension that our clients feel and that anxiety about getting started and things. But in relation to any form of behavior change, we often say, I don't feel ready. I don't feel ready. And it's this question of, you know, like, it's. It's. When you brought this up, it's that feeling of, well, what is it that we're actually describing? We're using the. We're substituting the word ready for, like, we're using that to describe something. But what actually is the feeling? And then what is the thinking?

[E]

Yes.

[C]

And then what. What is this? Because we need a bit of a mindset shift here.

[E]

Yeah, that is a great question. Should we explore that together or have you had some thoughts around that? I mean, be curious about it together.

[C]

Yeah, let's be curious about it together. I guess the things that I've been thinking about is that I think what we're talking about is the feeling of trepidation. Of uncertainty.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

Of worry.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

Of nervousness. A fear, of dread.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, you know.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

We could just keep.

[E]

We could list it all. Anything goes. Yeah. So it almost feels like we're using the word ready to kind of encapsulate all of those feelings.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[E]

As opposed to, you know, I don't think I'm ready because I feel.

[C]

Yes.

[E]

All of those things.

[C]

Which is more accurate, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that then also weaves into this idea, this. This wish, this fantasy, this desire to have that lovely feeling that we know people with ocd, Chase.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Which is the feeling of certainty.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

That all the feelings associated when we have a moment of clarity or. A moment. Yeah. An aha moment. That lovely, satisfying, peaceful sort of feeling that we have in our bodies. You know, that's so delicious. Yeah, but. But doesn't stay for long. No, but that we're. We're. I think when we're talking about the idea of are we ready for something? We're talking about a wish that we could feel that feeling which would give us clarity and certainty. That it's time to proceed.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

That it's time to do. It's time to change.

[E]

Which is never going to come.

[C]

No, no.

[E]

Maybe in bits and pieces. Yeah. But you're never really going to be. You're never going to really think that you're 100% ready for anything.

[C]

Yeah. Or it might come, but then it'll also be balanced with, you know, fear or worry. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

Even a lion gets scared.

[C]

Even a lion gets scared.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

So it's. And I think that's part of the human condition in terms of that messiness that we often refer to. I think we've talked about it in nearly every episode.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

Of having these feelings, wanting it to be a certain way. Wanting it to be almost perfect in how it sits so you can proceed.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

When really that's not what it means to be human.

[C]

No, that's right.

[E]

And it's okay to have both of those things or all 10 of those things all at once. There's a scene on Harry Potter where they're a little bit older. It's a few.

[C]

Which film?

[E]

The one where Ron keeps kissing Rowena. With the love potion. Yeah. With the chocolates.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Is that Water of the Phoenix?

[C]

I don't know.

[E]

Anyway. Anyway, My daughter will kill me.

[C]

That.

[E]

I don't know. That. That movie where Harry starts to note no Goblet of Fire. Because it's where. Oh, no, it must be the one after Goblet of. It's the one after Goblet of Fire because that's when Harry starts to notice Cho Chang. And Cho's crying because Cedric had died in the previous movie slash book and all this sort of stuff. And Hermione lists off all these feelings that Choke would possibly be feeling as to why she was crying when Harry kissed her. I think they kissed briefly.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Remember? Or she was crying about something like. And then Ron goes. How can someone possibly feel all those emotions at once? They'd go insane. Or something like that. It's like, well, yes, she's a person. Yeah. Normal. To feel all of those feelings all at once. And sometimes it does drive us. Drive us insane. But we can't hedge our bets in the context of OCD in preparation for exposure, exposure therapy or therapy in general. We can't hedge our bets on making sure that all of that is under control in order for us to start.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Or for us to get going. That's right.

[C]

Or to wait for that moment where we have a guaranteed outcome.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And that feeling of certainty is a huge hurdle that I think we face not just as. Not just for our Clients that our clients face in terms of overcoming and leaning in towards uncertainty and messiness. But we face it as well as clinicians because we've got to help our clients through it.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And that makes it. Sometimes we feel stuck.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Sometimes it's challenging. Sometimes we might even feel frustrated. But so do our clients.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

So how do we work through all of that?

[C]

Well, I think it comes back to conversations that we've had before about working with ambivalence, you know, and the push pull. Do I start? Do I not start? It's about using techniques like motivational interviewing. It's drawing from acceptance and commitment therapy in relation to the concept of willingness.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

About accepting discomfort.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

It's about thinking about our clients patterns of, you know, using emotional reasoning. You know, I. I can't proceed because I have this discomfort, which is obviously an indicator that something bad will happen. And so we can drill down to that. We can provide some psychoeducation, we can be curious, and we can help our clients connect with reasons to act, reasons to do despite the discomfort and reasons to connect to that will help them feel like the discomfort. And proceeding without certainty, Proceeding despite the fear is worth it.

[E]

Feel the fear, but do it anyway.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[E]

And one of the ways we do that, I think I'm pretty sure you're working this way as well. One of the ways we do that is through values, guided action.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And the clinicians listening in may or may not be familiar with the choice point exercise here, but one thing we can often talk about is going, okay, let's. If we take OCD out of the picture, what do we want life to look like? What's a goal here? And then what are the mini goals to help us get to that bigger goal when OCD shows up? How does that take us away from those goals? And then if we lean into uncertainty, if we lean into fear, if we lean into this idea of, it would be nice to be ready or think that I'm ready, but how can I move towards my values, not OCD's values. Take all of this in my stride. Allow myself and give myself to be messy.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And do it anyway.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

With the tools that you have.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

It's not like our clients haven't tried. Oh, yeah, right.

[C]

That's right.

[E]

But the difference being with therapy is that you have tools to help you.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Do those things. As opposed to white knuckling or going cold turkey or whatever else it might be.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Or.

[C]

Or the opposite, which is just avoiding.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

And not proceeding. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

And still saying, I don't feel ready.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[E]

Even though it's a decision.

[C]

Yeah. And I think. I think that that's why. I mean, people might think that we're splitting hairs.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

But I think the. It's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. Like, you know, of course I'd have that sort of conversations with my clients, but I think actually when we. I think the language that we use in therapy and that we as clinicians are attuned to, you know, that we're observing, I think actually is important, because when we allow our clients to use phrases like I don't feel ready, what we're not doing is helping them tune into what they're actually feeling.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

And what they might actually not be attuned to or what they. Or what might be holding them back. And then we know that when we are able to use the proper. Like the words like I feel afraid and the sensation I'm getting is a beating heartbeat and sweaty palms, when we're able to get our clients to tune into those things to. To notice them without judgment, it really helps with acceptance. And then sometimes the lovely thing is that we then are able to watch them pass by and those feelings actually move. And it's a lovely. We actually experience a shift because we're actually tuning in and acknowledging what's actually sitting there.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Or. Or not. But it does help people have more insight and therefore greater ability for that mindset shift, which is, oh, of course I'm anxious. Of course I'm scared. I'm scared about this. I'm worried about that. Yeah. It's an intense feeling that's making me want to run from it. But that then opens doors for change, where a statement like, I don't feel ready, actually close it down. Shuts it down. Close down opportunities.

[E]

Yeah, it does. It really does. And the perfect example of that, of why we need to be mindful of naming our feelings, is anxiety is the same as excitement.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

And they're chalk and cheese.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. But they physically feel the same physical sensations are.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And so if we don't split those hairs and help our clients understand the difference and label those emotions correctly, then confusion comes in, things get shut down, as you beautifully described. But also clients miss the opportunity to go, oh, hang on a minute. No, I wasn't anxious. I was actually excited about that.

[C]

Yeah. Which is a totally different experience. Yeah, that's right.

[E]

Which is why. Yeah, it's important to be Able to do that. Naming them, but then also feeling them.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Naming the emotion and then feeling the emotion. I think we're quite good at helping our clients name, but maybe not always as good as then taking the next step and allowing them to feel. Yeah. Because when the feeling part comes, clients start wriggling around and they get more avoidant, and all of that sort of stuff happens. And then we get sometimes pulled into that, going, no, no, no, no.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

But we want to encourage them to sit in it.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

So that they can learn to do the hard thing.

[C]

Absolutely.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

It's really easy for us as clinicians to stay in a very intellectual space.

[E]

Absolutely.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

And. And we've really got to help our clients get out of their heads. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

And into their bodies.

[C]

I mean, that's not to say that there aren't really important things that are clarity. Clients are thinking. Like, I don't want people to feel like we have to just dismiss what people are thinking, because that is a huge part of therapy. But we're. We're talking about. If we're talking about behavior change, motivation, shifting gears, then. Yeah, we. We do have to really help with that. Mind, body connection.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

And help people see the links.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

And there's a really beautiful learning model by Colby. I can't pronounce his name. I hope I'm remembering the order correctly. But it goes by allowing the client to share their experience and to talk about their thoughts and all that sort of stuff to then have us to then move into that reflective space and help them bring in that idea of, you know, if you can hear a lot of the. I don't feel ready, but then helping them distinguish between thoughts and feelings and all that sort of stuff, then moving into how it feels experientially so in their body and all that sort of thing. And then moving into action.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And intervention. Yeah. And not skipping those steps is really important. I think it kind of does a really nice job of encapsulating each of those moments to allow our clients to express their thoughts, like you said, because you don't want to dismiss them. You don't want to come across as invalidating, but then also giving them a chance to feel what's going on.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And then moving into intervention.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

As opposed to just staying cognitive or intellectual.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And then short circuiting into intervention.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[E]

Could be a really nice way of just holding that framework in mind.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

For any clinician who's. Who sometimes can struggle with that, I.

[C]

Think yeah, yeah, yeah. Super interesting.

[E]

Aside from we started with ready is not a feeling, it's a decision. Does anything else come to mind in terms of thoughts and feelings that people often get confused with? We talked about anxiety and excitement really briefly. Does anything else come to mind? I'll put you on the spot.

[C]

No, you have to pre prepare me for this. Wait, where's chat GPT?

[E]

Do I.

[C]

Does anything else come to mind? Chat GPT?

[E]

I'm trying to think for myself. What are some other really common ones that clients often get confused with when it comes to thoughts and feelings?

[C]

I feel fat.

[E]

Yes. Yeah. That's so common. Yep.

[C]

That's a really common one.

[E]

That comes up a lot. Yeah, that's true. I feel ugly or I feel dumb.

[C]

I feel dumb.

[E]

All the self critical ones. Yeah. There's a theme coming up here. If we were to go to OCD themes. I feel like a pedophile profile. I feel like a murderer.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

As opposed to.

[C]

I feel like a bad person.

[E]

I feel like a bad person. Or not. As opposed to. As opposed to I'm thinking I'm a murderer.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Or I'm thinking. Or I am.

[C]

Yeah. I feel dirty.

[E]

I feel dirty. I feel disgusted.

[C]

Yeah. So that would be right. Disgusted. Yeah. Disgusted, yeah. Yeah.

[E]

I feel gross.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Same sort of thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

I feel ashamed.

[C]

That's a lovely thing.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

These are things that are sitting underneath, aren't they, to tap into.

[E]

I feel guilty.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

So you can start to see why that distinction between thoughts and feelings are important.

[C]

Yeah. So much more richness.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And it will give us as clinicians, it gives us insight into what's driving ocd, which is what you can tackle.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

As opposed to staying symptom focused.

[C]

Yeah. Yes.

[E]

And so if a client says something like, oh, I feel like a pedophile going, okay, let's eat up, you know, what can we do for. Yeah, great. But then at the same time, if you're not weaving in what's sitting underneath, in terms of the actual feelings going, okay, that's a thought.

[C]

Yeah, that's right.

[E]

The feelings are shame, disgust.

[C]

Yep.

[E]

And whatever else it might be, maybe.

[C]

There'S physical sensations, maybe there's a groinal response. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

If we're not weaving that into our exposure tasks, we're missing a whole chunk.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Of what could be driving those exposures. So we're not just splitting hairs. It's an important distinction.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And this is, this is, I think, one of those great things that once you've got some of the, I think Once you're really familiar with the foundations of ERP and you're feeling really comfortable and you've got really, you know, good rapport with your clients and things that. This is some of the really interesting places that you can take your therapy.

[E]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And even exploring. I don't know about you, but I love to bring in a lot of the schema work in terms of some of those underlying feelings.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

And really exploring, like when was the first time you started feeling that emotion, what was going on around you? Perhaps even doing some rescripting around that, that can be really helpful. It's really kind of getting in there and working through and helping our clients process what's sitting underneath and how it shows up in other ways. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay.

[C]

Fabulous.

[E]

Short and sweet today. Short and sweet. Anything you want to add to help wrap up?

[C]

No, I think it's just again, I think, you know, it's a thing we keep coming back to, but, you know, step, you know, to have the confidence to step away from, you know, the manualized treatment and, you know, observe in the room, be curious, be transparent, explore. There are just really rich and interesting but also effective places that we can go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

Wonderful.

[C]

All right.

[E]

So don't be afraid to explore those thoughts and feelings.

[C]

That's right. Yeah.

[E]

Thank you guys so much for watching listening. Please subscribe if you haven't already. So don't miss out on the fortnightly releases and we'll catch you in the next episode.

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