Podcast Summary: Breakpoint – "The Law Behind the Law"

Host: John Stonestreet
Date: January 26, 2026
Episode Theme: The foundation of law – natural versus positive law, and why moral universals matter.

Episode Overview

In this episode of Breakpoint, John Stonestreet examines the concept of law beyond the technicalities of international and domestic legislation. Using recent political events and references to historical moments such as the Nuremberg trials, Stonestreet questions the foundations of law and argues that true justice requires an appeal to a higher, transcendent moral standard—what is often termed "natural law." He contrasts this Christian worldview with secular humanist attempts to ground law in nature or social agreement, evaluating their capabilities and limitations through the lens of history, philosophy, and faith.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Limits of International Law in Modern Affairs

[00:13]

• Stonestreet references recent global controversies (Russian invasion of Ukraine, Israeli responses, American raids on Venezuela) to highlight frequent appeals to international law.
• Critique: International law is undermined by powerful "bad actors" (Moscow, Beijing, Tehran), rendering its enforcement inconsistent and potentially self-serving for stronger nations.
• Key Insight: Without a transcendent or moral foundation, international law can devolve into “a game of smoke and mirrors… played by powerful nations who insist on enforcement when convenient to them.”

2. The Nuremberg Trials as a Case Study

[01:15]

• Discussion of post-WWII Nuremberg trials: Allies sought to hold Nazis accountable for "extraordinary evil," not just wartime acts.
• Challenges:
  • There was no clear legal precedent or established international law for such prosecution.
  • The trials operated in a "legal limbo."
• Memorable Moment:
  • Stonestreet cites a line from the Nuremberg movie describing the dilemma:

    “It can't be done. There's no legal precedent for a trial. There's no international law to base the charges on... what you're talking about is trying them in some sort of legal limbo that doesn't exist using case law that hasn't been written yet.” (approx. [02:15])

• Philosophical Question: How can one break a law that does not actually exist?

3. Law's Deeper Foundations: Natural Law vs. Positive Law

[03:15]

• Stonestreet transitions from legal history to philosophy, challenging the sufficiency of "transactional morality."
• Argues that moving “beyond that transactional morality requires a higher law and thus a lawgiver.”
• Quote from David Noble:

  “How can the humanist claim man has rights apart from other animals if the only source of those rights is man's own transactions and interest?... However, the humanist is then faced with the problem of explaining the origin of this natural law.” ([04:00])

• Distinction:
  • Natural law – rooted in universal absolutes, often tied to divine revelation.
  • Positive law – the outcome of social contracts, evolving with society.

4. The Christian Worldview's Answer

[05:00]

• Stonestreet asserts that only the Christian perspective can offer a robust foundation for moral law, citing the image of God and the reality of human fallenness as dual insights:
  • Every individual has intrinsic dignity and is accountable to God.
  • Every individual also possesses a "potential for evil."
• Memorable Line:

  "A just law, whether international or domestic, will secure the prior and punish the latter without resorting only to mere power.” ([06:00])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On international law’s fragility:

  “Unless some kind of transcendent law exists, appealing to international law is just a game of smoke and mirrors that's played by powerful nations who insist on enforcement when convenient to them.” — John Stonestreet ([00:45])

• From the Nuremberg trials discussion:

  “It can't be done. There's no legal precedent for a trial. There's no international law to base the charges on... what you're talking about is trying them in some sort of legal limbo that doesn't exist using case law that hasn't been written yet.” — (Quotation from the Nuremberg movie, cited by John Stonestreet) ([02:15])

• David Noble’s critique of secular morality:

  “A belief in natural law and natural rights lets the humanist off the hook... However, the humanist is then faced with the problem of explaining the origin of this natural law.” — David Noble (quoted by John Stonestreet) ([04:00])

• On justice and law:

  “A just law, whether international or domestic, will secure the prior [human dignity] and punish the latter [evil] without resorting only to mere power.” — John Stonestreet ([06:00])

Important Timestamps

• [00:13] – Introduction of recent events and debate over international law
• [01:15] – Nuremberg trials as a legal and moral test case
• [02:15] – Quotation from the Nuremberg movie on the absence of precedent
• [03:15] – Shift from legal history to the philosophy of law
• [04:00] – David Noble’s critique of humanist approaches to rights
• [05:00] – The Christian foundation for law: dignity, accountability, fallenness
• [06:00] – What makes a law just from a Christian perspective

Conclusion

Stonestreet’s argument throughout the episode is that society needs a transcendent standard—grounded in the Christian worldview—to underpin both domestic and international law. Without it, justice risks becoming whims of power rather than pursuit of inherent right or wrong. The episode encourages listeners to consider the source of their own beliefs about justice and the law, suggesting that only the reality of a divine lawgiver provides a truly stable foundation.

Co-author: Dr. Timothy Padgett
For more, visit breakpoint.org