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Ford BlueCruise Hands Free highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in BlueCruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details.
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Foreign.
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This candy season, what are chocolate companies doing about the scary high price of cocoa? Does Gen Z want to order love the way they order pizza? Can dating Apps stay Relevant? Will AI really change consumer experiences and all the pressure to make money? Push generative AI apps to push their users in ways we can't yet imagine? Former CEO of Tinder, Fay I Also Toluno joins us to break it all down in an exclusive interview for Friday, October 31st. It's Blue Markets Daily and I'm Ann Barry. More market details to come, but first, Tinder, the OG dating app, is one of the biggest consumer tech businesses in the world, with over 45 million users globally. As CEO until July this year, Fayosa Toluno oversaw $2 billion of Tinder revenue and it was instrumental shaping the app's personalization and drive into AI. But her journey through the online world doesn't end there. Faye was previously Chief Strategy Officer at Match Group. She was vice president of strategy and business development, SoundCloud, one of the largest music streaming services in the world. And Faye has had broad experiences across digital media and in gaming at Viacom, Warner Brothers, Yahoo and Time Warner, first starting her career in investment banking. So to break down the latest in consumer technology, if nostalgia can get us off our phones and into real world experiences and the risks that come alongside the promise of AI, we are delighted to have Faye join us on the show today in her first media interview since leaving Tinder. That conversation in a moment, but first a word from our sponsor. Surf Air Mobility. The future of transportation is taking off and our producer John has more on how air travel is changing with it. That's right.
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With innovations like this, Surf Air Mobility aims to be a key player in the growing air mobility space, a market expected to reach over $100 billion by 2035.
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To learn more about their technology and vision for the future of flight, visit surfair.com Morning Brew this is a paid advertisement for Surf Air Mobility Inc. Full disclosure available in podcast description.
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And now my conversation with Faye. I also Toluno. Welcome, Faye. I also know former CEO of Tinder. 45 million users globally, $2 billion worldwide. Faye. Massive, massive seat in consumer tech. So very excited to break down what on earth is going on in the world of AI and consumer tech and young people today, and what's exciting and what perhaps is a little bit more challenging. Let's start with this whole concept of online dating fatigue. Okay. You know when you take a look at Grindr share price, it's down 18% year to date. Match is down about 2% year to date. Bumble is down 33% year to date. It looks as though people and we should talk about which generations are turning their backs on apps, is that right?
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I think there's a lot going on right now and there's no question that for younger generations like Gen Z, they're looking at online dating a little differently than generations before. Remember that online dating or Tinder, came onto the scene in 2012.
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Yeah.
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And so millennials at the time were in their 20s, early 30s, so they were integrating it into their lives in a particular way. I think Gen Z today, who are teens to call it late 20s, mid. Late 20s, they are truly digitally native. Right. And so what does that mean? One, I think it means they are much more conditioned for instant gratification.
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Okay.
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They want something immediately.
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Right.
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Whether it's their Uber, their pizza, their.
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Thing from Amazon they want to order. Love the way they order pizza. Yes.
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Like, I think there is this notion that if I can get everything this easily and tech has enabled that, which is incredible, shouldn't that happen in love and relationship as well? I wish it could. I just think human relationships is much more complex than that. Right. It's not just about what I want, it's also about what the person on the other side wants. And these platforms have come together to try to do their best to make that happen, but it takes time.
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C
Okay.
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So instant gratification is a problem. And then the other piece is that there's this nostalgia for things that kind of were the way the things of the past Think about. Vinyls now today are incredibly popular. It's like 18 years of consecutive revenue growth. People are wearing wired headphones, Polaroid photos.
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C
The return of the Polaroid.
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Exactly. And so there is this desire to just like sit serendipitously, like run into the person that you're meant to be with.
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The meet cute.
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The meet cute. And that's really not happening the way people would like it to happen. And so I think platforms, all the names that you describe, are working towards really re envisioning what their products can be for this generation that's just engaged with technology in a totally different way.
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That's so interesting because you're sort of saying they're two sides of the same coin, right? Those who are digitally native also want non digital experience. And just because we are a market show. To put that in context, if you think about Live Nation share prices up 50% year to date. TKO, which is Ultimate Fight Club up 33%, this desire for experiential is translating into success.
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I think it is. And I think you look at those businesses too, they're commanding higher and higher prices, right, to have those experiential moments and people are paying for them. And so I think there is this push and pull, right? The tug of the digitally native. I want everything to happen instantaneously through technology, but at the same time the desire to be with other people. But in this space that is, you know, whether it's, you know, a movie even or a concert or you know, some kind of live event, I think that's the dynamic that we're seeing.
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C
So why aren't Tinder and Grindr and Bumble becoming amongst the world's biggest, biggest event organization businesses? Why aren't they doubling down on live?
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I think they've tried to experiment on that front. We've certainly sponsored things when I was at Tinder. Things like run clubs, events that would bring people together. I think there is a difference though between a digitally native company as well as an experiential company. And in the same way that experiential companies want to tap more into digital. Yeah, I think you're right that the online apps for dating need to do more on the experiment experiential side. But that would be a new muscle to build. Right. It's a different set of operations even to have the capability to do something like a live nation, which is probably outside of their immediate wheelhouse.
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So let me ask you a question. I'm just thinking of this on the fly. Maybe it's a wacky question. I know you started life as an investment banker, so you are one person. I could ask this. Does a live nation turn around and try to buy one of the dating apps?
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That's an interesting question. I don't know that it needs to necessarily. I think that they have a lot of the demand that they need their scarcity value, which also drives up demand in that front. I do think that there's a natural relationship between once you're dating somebody, you want to do things with that person, I hope. And so whether it's going to restaurants or going to these events, that starts to be interesting. And so I can certainly see a business development relationship, partnership relationship there.
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Let's talk a little bit about what you said, which is that there's this nostalgia amongst younger people. And there is one note that you sent before we started our conversation, which is the NPD group found that Gen Z are visiting restaurants about 66 times fewer per year than Gen X at that age. Now, the way in which the research is sort of positioned, it's suggesting that people aren't spending their time dramatically differently. But if you turn that number into practice, that sort of one time ish a week less that people are actually going out and about and eating a meal, surrounded by other people, that's a high proportion of the week. I sort of read that differently and said, you know, are young people not able to afford to do the activities that were available to their, you know, to their predecessors?
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I think there is an element of that. I think young people today, there are other priorities and stresses that they have. Right. Whether it is paying rent, finding a job, all those things that can impact the dynamic there. But I still think that with that, there are cheap ways to go out as well.
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C
Go for a walk.
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Go for a walk. We're here in New York City, Central park, right. Go for a coffee. And even if a coffee nowadays is 10 bucks, it's still accessible, though. It's not crazy. Like perhaps a dinner that would cost $100, $150.
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I'm just so curious because you had so much and you still do have so much insight into how people behave. What is the other? Are there gender expectations around things like who picks up the check? Has that evolved over time?
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I think that's become more equal over time. I think that because of pressures that we just talked about, because of, you know, just also women. Higher proportion of women in the workforce. Yeah, that expectation perhaps historically of, oh, the guy picks up the bill all the time, I think that was changing quite a bit.
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Let's talk about how AI is perhaps playing a role not only in dating, but in some of the other areas of consumer tech that you've, you've come across in your career. Let's talk about creativity. One of the things that seems to be a narrative around Gen AI is that barriers to entry to creativity, which is such a bizarre Turn of phrase in my mind are coming down. What does that mean in terms of how you're seeing people present themselves online? How are they engaging with Gen I for creativity?
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This one we're in the middle of. I think from an evolutionary perspective, when you look at, let's say, a country like Korea who was already using AI, think about filters and tools to make their profiles look a particular way. Men and women.
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Wait, what are they doing? Elaborate on that.
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They're adding features to their profile pictures. Right.
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Interesting.
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They're embellishing them, perhaps even if it's around the food and the context that they're in. But it's almost a little bit more acceptable or more the norm there. And so it wasn't as awkward. Now, with that said, everybody kind of looks at that profile and realizes, oh, okay, this person might not look exactly like what's being represented here. So I think what will be interesting is what is the role? What does authenticity look like? Right. In online dating, for instance, authenticity is so important. You want to know that if I see you in an app and we decide to go out on a date that. That you appear the way I saw you or you engage with me. Your banter, your joking, is the way that I've encountered you in the experience. If people are leveraging Gen AI so much that we don't perceive what is authentic and not authentic, I think that becomes a real big challenge. I think in the space of broader, let's say, entertainment creation, that's going to appear as well. Right. Whether or not that makes the same impact or difference, I think is unclear because you ultimately don't have to go on a date with the movie that you're watching. Right. Or you may never meet that influencer in person. But certainly, perhaps how much you listen to that influencer comes from the perceived experience you think that influencer has lived through. And those are the ways that I think Gen AI is going to start to create tension around what we feel is authentic or not.
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We'll take a quick break. More of my conversation with Fay. I also Tolino in a moment. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky. And let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But not Vanguard. Vanguard makes institutional quality the standard for their products across the board. Board. They've got over 80 bond funds managed by a team of 200 experts, from analysts to traders to sector specialists. The bond market is complicated, but Vanguard can help make it make sense with scale, consistency and zero drama. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself@vanguard.com audio that's vanguard.com audio all investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor this episode is.
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Brought to you by Rumchata, a delicious creamy blend of horchata with rum. It's best enjoyed over ice or in your coffee, delivering vacation vibes any way or anywhere you drink it. Find out more@rumchata.com drink responsibly Caribbean rum with real dairy cream, natural and artificial flavors. Alcohol 13.75% by volume 27.5 proof. Copyright 2025 Agave Loco Brands, Pojoaquee, Wisconsin. All rights reserved.
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And now back to my conversation with Faye. I also Toluno, Former CEO of Tinder do you think we start to see AI get used to do something that sort of runs counter to all this, which is almost the equivalent of a deep fake detection sitting in dating apps so that you have the ability as a user of one of the apps to make sure that a profile can you sort of defilter it? Is that something that will end up becoming a feature, do you think?
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I think it's certainly a path because if we can use this incredible technology to create can we use this incredible technology to identify and we at Tinder had already been using this extensively from a trust and safety perspective and taking that and utilizing it through the whole profile, through the chats, all of that is possible.
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There was one thing that has popped up in the narrative which is how AI might be used to create new consumers lifestyle experiences. So I went on to chat GPT and I typed in the question what new consumer lifestyle experiences will be created by AI? And the answer I actually found quite depressing because what it came up with was for one example, you know, emotionally intelligent companions and assistants. The robots that can able are able to have a conversation with you and perhaps, you know, gauge your emotional state. Another one was looking at hyper personalization including in virtual or hybrid social consumption experiences. The bottom line for these a move to more isolation and interaction with your electronic devices. How do you think about that in terms of the impact that could have on social behavior and particularly for young people who are digitally native?
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Yeah, I think this is a great question and something we all have to pay a lot of attention to. And things are moving so fast and I think one of the Only consumer lifestyle experience that has popped up that's had some resonance is around this companion AI area. Well, one is obviously chatgpt from a search perspective, but these companion apps are starting to gain traction. The challenge there is that the companion dynamic is not somebody that's there to challenge you like a real friend would in real life. It's really there to serve whatever you need to fulfill your perceived needs. And I think we need to take some learnings from how we saw social media potentially impact users, especially young users, around engagement and mental wellness. And I see an analog of that possibly happening here. We've seen a lot of experiences out there now that are under a lot of scrutiny, whether it's because of lawsuits related to families alleging that people their kids have committed suicide or self harm. And this is where I think parents need to be incredibly proactive when thinking about these experiences and their kids using it. Adults need to use it with caution and I think companies frankly need to take a more proactive stance here. But, but clearly there's a need that's being fulfilled if there is resonance. But I think we need to figure out how do we take this and bring that to real life? How do we parlay that ability to perhaps learn more about ourselves when we're chatting with a chatbot?
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Right.
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Discover more about what we want or don't want and then apply that to online dating or apply that to how I'm engaging with you in real life.
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Do you think there's a risk that this all turns into a push for online purchasing in a much more insidious way? And here's, here's what I mean by that. So one of the things we've talked about on the show is retailer after retailer. Walmart, Etsy is announcing deals of Chat GPT at the moment where you can go to Chat GPT and you can type in I want to buy a jacket. Great jacket, by the way. And a link, you know, a click and purchase link is available to whichever retailer you want to buy from. Is there a risk that some of these companions end up looking at our patterns and sort of shifting us to do things that are commercially great for the provider of the companion? But it's to our detriment.
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I think we should expect it.
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That's really cynical.
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It's not cynical, it's really. Cory Doctorow, who is a writer, a tech writer, a thinker, has in past years wrote about the insidification of platforms.
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I hope that didn't get bleeped out.
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It's the name of a Book. I know it's the name of a book. Yes. And he's been doing the circuit now because he's got a new book out. But, you know, he put out there this notion that these platforms were created and they were so novel and useful for users and we gravitated towards them.
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Like which ones?
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The Facebooks of the world, Instagrams, you know, the TikToks of the world. And at some point these platforms then tilt to business interests, right? They start making design choices to really drive the business portion of the ecosystem. And then at some point they basically degrade the user experience and the business experience so that the company itself can extract more value. This is kind of his theory of how these platforms can evolve.
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Do you agree with that?
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I certainly see some of the signals that would say that there are parts of that happening, whether that is through, let's say, more ads that you're seeing in a particular app where you weren't seeing as much before, perhaps you're seeing more things that aren't relevant to you.
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Right.
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But businesses need to get more reach and hopefully more click through. So I think it exists in different parts of the digital ecosystem and I think we're even starting to see it now in. In AI, I recently read there was a Harvard Business School professor, Julian defreitis, came out with a research study on companion apps. And what they looked at was five companion apps and found that the chatbots would use at least one emotionally manipulative or exploitative tactic to keep the user on when the user signaled that they. They were ready to leave. Right. So a user might say, I got to go. Like I got to, you know, do X, Y and Z, and that would increase. And that was happening. I think it was like 37% of the conversations where somebody was indicating they were going to leave. And so you're seeing that dynamic of design choices that might be leading to perhaps negative impact to the user. I think on the shopping side, there's the benefit of personalization. I think there's huge benefits from personalization from an AI perspective. How many times have you sat there and doom scrolled to find the thing that you want? If I can find that without clicking five different filters and somebody knows my taste or my companion knows my taste, can they bring that to me closer, faster? But at the same time, that's a lot of power. It's a lot of power and influence. And so what happens when your companion has that they suddenly now have the ability to influence and perhaps push you to things you otherwise wouldn't have wanted to be pushed towards.
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C
So here's a question for you. It feels as though some of these AI apps are normalizing personalization perhaps in a different way. And one of the phenomena that has taken off internationally, but not so much here is this concept of a super app. So Whether that's Grab as one, whether there's WeChat and the idea is for our listeners it's one app where you can go and do everything from order a ride share to do your banking, to message your friends. Asia's got a lot of them. The US not so much. The X feels as though it's trying to go in that direction. Do you think that we're going to get there now that you know, is this the moment when it happens?
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I've always been fascinated by the super apps in Asia because they're able to keep users so captive and offer enough things that that's where you want to go. And we've never seen that really take off here in the US Lots of experiences are bespoke, brands are the destination. I think what will be interesting to see is if a chatgpt or something conversationally based ends up driving or becoming that intermediary into all of these.
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Because it makes us comfortable. It feels better.
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Exactly. It feels like, oh, this interface bring me anything I need, it can bring me payments, it can bring me communication, it could bring me perhaps entertainment. And you see a lot of, you know, what ChatGPT is doing is creating these partnerships with these businesses. Right. That are kind of bringing them in. So I think we're in the early stages of that, but I'm certainly interested in seeing if that notion of a one stop shop does come here, but looks different than perhaps these apps that exist, you know, out in Asia.
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C
The other place that OpenAI is now making noises about going is hardware. And for a long time they said, well, we're not sure we will. Do you see them, pun intended, moving into VR or things like the Meta glasses or moving into wearables and taking physical AI into part of their portfolio?
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I do.
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You do?
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I think they are going so hard across so many different dimensions and verticals and say hardware or something complementary as you go about your daily life would I believe absolutely be on the table now. Whether they're glasses in the way that Meta and Apple have gone down, I don't know. But they acquired Jony I've's company and clear producer of designer at Apple.
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Famous, very famous business.
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Exactly. But I think we are in very, very, very early stages of that I think there's still a lot of product market fit that needs to be determined. You know, I wear contacts, so I actually do wear glasses. Yeah, I don't like wearing glasses.
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C
Well, I've got mine, actually. I was going to wear them up.
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But you know, what is the value prop that's going to drive me to not want to wear my contacts anymore or wear my contacts, but then wear glasses over my contacts?
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The simultaneous translation. Right. Meta glasses has feature which I was very skeptical about and then I saw it, I was in Europe and a friend of mine put on his glasses and was able to translate, you know, the languages were translated for him. So I guess it's a question. I mean, everything's got a price right to get some adoption going.
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Yes, yes.
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So since you are so immersed in all this and your background is amazing, you've done everything from finance, you've been in corporate strategy, and as part of that, you have been a decision maker around acquisitions for corporations. So I have to ask you the question, are we in a bubble? Are we in an AI bubble? When you look at valuations right now.
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I think you've got some similarities with the tech bubble that we saw. Now. I think a lot of the investments that are going into the AI space are productive investments, meaning they are trying to predict how much capacity do we need in making those investments. Now the price paid for those investments are probably higher than it would be if it were over time, more over time, over a longer duration. And so I think there's probably. And capital markets are not my expertise, but I do certainly think that there are pockets where there's probably a bit, there's froth, but there are also real investments. These are real investments, right, that are meant to sustain and support a future where AI is incredibly dominant across all the things we're doing. A lot of the investments today are on the, I would argue on the infrastructure, compute, enterprise side. Right. But that chain is really long. I would argue consumer lifestyle. You asked ChatGPT and it didn't come up with that many options.
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It wasn't creative.
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So, so consumer lifestyle I think hasn't even really been tapped into. And those things are going to look far different than what's being invested in today. But regardless, like those investments, you know, are meant to support this future where it, where AI is embedded in so many different ways. And I, I think that that future is going to happen. I think I don't have a strong sense of how many years it's going to take to get there, you know, but but you've got a lot of energy and excitement right now around it.
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C
So here's what I can't tell and I'm trying to sort of read you here. You've worked in music, you've worked in media, you've worked in online dating. I can't quite tell if you're excited, more excited or more concerned about AI coming into those industries. So just finish off by clarifying, where do you actually stand? Are you net really jazzed up? Are you net super concerned?
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A
I am net. I'm very jazzed up. I think that there is a lot of value that so many people are gonna get from this. Right. Whether it is you have a new idea and suddenly the playing field has been leveled, you can actually bring that great idea into life. So there's gonna be so many more new ideas, new startups, new offerings out in the world. I think from a task perspective, how many hours do you spend doing things that you wish you didn't have to do? Right?
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C
I wish I spent less time doom scrolling to go back to your point.
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A
Right. But these are gonna take away a lot of the friction that we might experience day to day. With all that said though, I think things are moving so fast that we as a society, I would hope folks who are in positions of power to think about legislation are leaning in on this because we really do have to create the right guardrails and mechanisms to make sure that we're using AI properly, in a safe way, in an ethical way. And that's where my concern comes from. It's been nice to see just this week, Character AI, which is one of these companion apps we talked about, just announced that they will prevent users under 18 from using their app. Right. So that's a move. OpenAI has implemented parental controls, and they're not without its flaws, but at least acknowledging, oh wow, this is something we need to be thinking about. Gavin Newsom in California just signed into law SB243, which starts to put reporting and transparency requirements into effect next year, or things around not being able to create those reward loops that are meant to increase engagement and retention. And so I think the conversations that we need to have are being had. I think we need to have more of them because to be able to take advantage of all these amazing things in the pipeline, we want to be able to do that, but I don't think it's at all costs. Right. I think we really need to do it deliberately.
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C
So you just said you hope that those in the position of power lean in to make sure things are done and paraphrasing the right way. You're in a position of power. You're one of the few CEOs of a consumer tech company of the global size and reach of Tinder. You've got that in your, on your resume. You've had impact there. You've been at a plethora of other consumer tech companies. You're in a position of power. If anyone can lean in and you're very articulate and can make a difference here, it's you. So what are you going to do next?
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A
I mean, it's a privilege to come here and actually have a venue to talk about these things. So thank you for that. And I'm, you know, having a lot of conversations in the ecosystem with folks that are building these experiences. People who are thinking about building these.
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C
Do they think they can have impact or do they think it's just a world about Jensen Huang and Sam Altman and everyone else is an irrelevant voice Now?
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A
I think people realize that the voices in the room it there are some power players. And I think people need to come together. Right. Organizations, smaller companies need to come together to be able to make sure those voices are heard as well. I think the research that's being done right now is a part of that story, too. A lot of the research done in the first kind of growth phase of social media didn't happen until much later in adoption, and a lot of that research is now happening right now. And that's a difference. And so getting that out into the mainstream audience, it's part of the dialogue, is important too. There's just so, so much many of us can be doing. And I just love the opportunity to be able to talk about it and hopefully get others to lean in.
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C
Well, Faye, as we say about those stocks that we're keeping an eye on with respect to you, we will keep watching. And what we will also do is post some of the links to the research that you've referenced because getting it out there and also looking at how companies are talking about it too, as they go forward in launching new products as well is important things. So we hope our audience enjoys that. That's it, folks. Thank you very much, Faye. Thank you very much.
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A
Thank you, Anne.
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C
Huge thanks to Faye for joining me. Well, it is 4pm on the east Coast. There's the closing bell. The market's wrapping up for the week. John, did anything catch your eye? It's been a busy one.
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B
That's right. Well, it's Halloween and just yesterday Hershey reported its quarterly earnings. And on the call, the company blamed warm weather and Halloween being on a Friday for a slow start to the fall candy season. Another challenge pointed out on the call the cost of Cocoa has increased 70% since 2023. One way through innovation, Hershey is doing a cross collab with Oreo Cookies. Here's one last quote from that call. Quote the recent innovation that we put out with Reese's Oreo has been really the top driver of growth. We're going to have the next benefit of most of next year with Reese's Oreo, and we'll continue to build on that momentum and find exciting ways to connect consumers. And with that innovation, shares in Hershey fell nearly 2% after the earnings report. And that concludes today's Boo Markets report.
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C
You've been waiting all day to throw out boom markets. I got to tell you just one thing on that Hershey earnings call, blaming the weather is so weak. Literally, unless you're a landscaping company, don't go there, guys. Don't go that. That's it for today's Brew Markets Daily.
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Brew Markets Daily is hosted by Ambery and produced by John Crateau, Tarkab Delatif and Emily Miller. Technical direction by Lonnie Fiskas and Eugena Wa? Ogu. Jim Orzo handles audio and the president of Morning Brew Inc. Is Devin Emery.
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Wake up on Monday with the Morning Brew newsletter and tune in to Neil and Toby on Morning Brew Daily. We'll see you back here on Monday. Have a fantastic weekend.