Brew Markets — "Trust Issues: Wikipedia’s Founder on Big Tech, Social Media and AI & Are Malls Back?"

Date: December 5, 2025
Host: Ann Berry (A), Forbes board member, investor, ex-CEO
Guest: Jimmy Wales (B), Founder of Wikipedia

Episode Overview

This episode explores the meaning and value of "trust" in modern institutions—from social media giants and tech platforms to AI, crypto, and Wikipedia itself. Host Ann Berry sits down with Jimmy Wales, discussing his new book The Seven Rules of Trust, and unpacks how trust, or the lack thereof, shapes companies, social trends, and investment markets. The latter portion of the show briefly spotlights a resurgence in mall retail stocks.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trust and Big Tech Stock Prices

• Contradiction, or Not?
  Despite public backlash and trust crises (e.g., Facebook’s internal research on Instagram harming teen girls and Reddit’s controversial AI deal), their share prices are robust—Meta up 75%, Reddit up fourfold.

• Jimmy Wales’ Perspective (04:10):

  • Short-term business interests can benefit from neglecting user trust, but long-term health suffers.
  • Markets don’t always immediately “price in” the impact of trust violations.
  • Competition is essential for preserving user-centric values.

  “I actually think that violating the trust of the users isn't good for business in the long run. It may be good in the short run, but I think that some of these companies are making a mistake in terms of not listening to what their users are saying.” — Jimmy Wales [04:27]

2. Community-Led Moderation: X (Twitter) and Wikipedia

• Community Notes on X (Twitter):

  • Wales appreciates features engaging users in moderation; sees parallels with Wikipedia but notes key differences.
  • Moderation on most platforms remains top-down rather than user-driven.

  “The more you can trust your users to actually get engaged in the process of moderation, then you're better off than just completely having chaos.” — Jimmy Wales [07:16]

• Potential Pitfall:
  Granting users the power to moderate shouldn’t let platforms abdicate responsibility.

  “It’s still very much the case that the moderation decisions at all the major platforms are really top down. They're not coming from other users... that hasn't really worked.” — Jimmy Wales [08:24]

3. The Tradeoff Between Trust and a Compelling Product

• User Habits:
  Users often tolerate data collection or ads if the product is compelling—up to a point.

  “It's one thing to say, oh, here's a tradeoff. I think they're showing too many ads these days, so I don't go on there as much—that doesn't feel like I'm being violated.” — Jimmy Wales [11:31]

• Example:
  Signal’s growth is credited to its unambiguous privacy stance, showing demand for institutions prioritizing trust.

  “My mother, in her 80s, got really annoyed about some story about Facebook and WhatsApp and privacy.... She got the whole family to move [to Signal].” — Jimmy Wales [12:57]

4. Wikipedia’s Role in the Age of AI

• Responsibility as an Information Infrastructure:
  Wikipedia now serves as a primary source for tools like ChatGPT.

  “The fact that we've become part of the infrastructure of the world means that our burden is quite important. It's quite heavy.” — Jimmy Wales [14:25]

• AI as Both Opportunity & Threat:

  • AI can create entirely fabricated but plausible news sources.
  • Currently, Wikipedia does not use AI for incorrect information detection—human curation remains superior.

  “Our community is completely obsessed with the quality of sources. ... Most people aren't obsessives about what is the name of the real newspaper in Denver, Colorado? ... But you're not going to fool Wikipedians because they're very experienced at this.” — Jimmy Wales [16:28]

5. Trust and the Manipulation of Digital Information

• Speculative Risks:
  Berry raises a "Mission Impossible" scenario: AI capable of rewriting all digital history.

  “Do we need hard copies? ... There is a risk one day that digital information could be manipulated.” — Ann Berry [20:57]

• Wales’ Response:

  • Technical solutions like immutable backups (write-once, read-many) are practical safeguards.
  • Libraries and books still offer unique enduring value.

  “I do think we need immutable backups. So immutable meaning write once, read many.... But I think libraries are great. And books, I love libraries.” — Jimmy Wales [21:41], [22:01]

6. Fostering Trust Among the Next Generation

• How Do Young People Learn to Trust?

  • Home is the primary school of trust—chaotic or untrustworthy environments in childhood cause real psychological damage.
  • In adolescence and the workplace, granting trust encourages trustworthy behavior.

  “To get trust, give trust. ... You've gotta give trust to the kids, and then they will begin to trust you more.” — Jimmy Wales [25:44]

7. Crypto, Markets, and Declining Trust in Institutions

• Crypto’s Appeal:
  Attracts users skeptical of traditional institutions, but ironically hampered by lack of trust (scams, irreversibility).

  “Most people really don't want to be scammed.... I think they have to be really a lot more serious about that if they want to build institutions that are trustworthy in that space.” — Jimmy Wales [30:08]

• Broader Market Sentiments:
  Wales observes rising cynicism about capitalism, price increases, and institutions—warns against generalized distrust.

  "There seems to be no end in sight to [price decreases]. ... Capitalism is the system that's given us incredible prosperity. ... Your other alternative is command and control economy. And we know how that definitely ends in tears." — Jimmy Wales [31:21]

8. AI-Generated “Encyclopedias” and Neutrality

• Grokopedia and X:

  • Wales questions whether Elon Musk’s LLM-powered “encyclopedia” can truly be neutral, noting alignment with Musk’s political views.
  • Wikipedia’s neutrality stems from its open, diffused editorial model versus a single owner’s potential to intervene.

  “Elon claims it will be more neutral than Wikipedia…. Yet it seems to be very aligned with certain of his more unusual political views. And so I wouldn't call that neutrality myself.” — Jimmy Wales [33:18]

9. Radical Transparency in Business and Politics

• Personality vs. Principles:
  Wales notes a trend where strong personalities (e.g., Elon Musk or Boris Johnson) sometimes get “forgiven” for lapses others wouldn't survive, due to their unapologetic candor or showmanship.

  “There are sort of almost like two basic types of politicians. One [for whom] a scandal would be horrifying ... the other who are just like, that's who I am, just embrace it. And then people sometimes forgive that.” — Jimmy Wales [34:36]

10. Takeaway: Choosing What (and Whom) to Trust

• Both in markets and democracy, Wales encourages consumers and voters to demand higher standards of trustworthiness.

  “If you don't trust it, don't vote for it. ... Certain behaviors that are not trustworthy or actually should be career ending.” — Jimmy Wales [35:36]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Long-Term vs. Short-Term Market Response:

  “Violating the trust of the users isn't good for business in the long run.” — Wales [04:27]

• Moderators vs. Moderation:

  “The more you can trust your users to actually get engaged in the process of moderation, then you're better off than just completely having chaos.” — Wales [07:16]

• Anecdote on Signal:

  “My mother ... got the whole family to move [to Signal].” — Wales [12:57]

• AI and Fake News:

  “It’s become very easy these days to generate a very large, very comprehensive fake news website … by just … using AI.” — Wales [15:49]

• Guidance for Young People:

  “To get trust, give trust.” — Wales [25:44]

• On Grokopedia and neutrality:

  “Elon claims it will be more neutral than Wikipedia ... Yet it seems to be very aligned with certain of his more unusual political views.” — Wales [33:18]

• On choosing leaders:

  “If you don't trust it, don't vote for it.” — Wales [35:36]

Market Wrap: The Return of Mall Stocks [36:49–37:32]

• Mall Retail Resurgence:
  • Bath and Body Works shares up 10%.
  • Black Friday traffic up 24%.
  • Abercrombie & Fitch and Gap also see robust sales and share price growth.
  • Gen Z is driving in-person retail experiences, suggesting a revival in mall culture.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Trust in Equity Markets: 00:16–04:10
• Jimmy Wales Interview: 04:10–36:26
  • Trust & Stock Prices: 04:10–05:49
  • Community Moderation: 05:49–09:55
  • Trust Tradeoffs: 10:29–13:41
  • Wikipedia’s Burden: 13:41–15:18
  • AI, Fake News, and Verification: 15:18–19:45
  • The Value of Libraries & Immutable Backups: 19:45–22:48
  • Raising Trustworthy Young People: 23:51–26:53
  • Crypto & Institutional Decline: 28:20–32:07
  • Grokopedia & Neutrality: 32:07–36:26
• Mall Retail Segment: 36:49–37:32

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is thoughtful, accessible, and practical, marked by Berry's incisive business angle and Wales's blend of clarity, candid anecdotes, and caution. Listeners leave with a richer understanding of why trust matters at every level of society—and actionable advice to demand it from institutions, platforms, and leaders alike.