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Trust Issues: Wikipedia’s Founder on Big Tech, Social Media and AI & Are Malls Back?
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A
You're about to make a trade which you do you listen to is it get optioning those options.
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Or let's do a little research. Learn more@finra.org TradeSmart.
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Whether a backlash to selling user data or concerns around harmful content, social media companies have weathered hits to consumer trust. So how have their stock prices fared? We take a look more stocks we window shop, Gap Bath and Body Works and Abercrombie and Fitch has store traffic numbers come out and Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, joins me in studio for a conversation on AI crypto, yes, trust and social media and so much more. For Friday, December 5th, it's Blue Markets Daily and I'm Ann Berry.
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More market details to come. But first, September 14, 2021 the Wall Street Journal reports that Facebook has three years of internal research showing Instagram risks exacerbating negative feelings among teenagers, particularly among girls, prompting a years long lawsuit. February 22, 2024 Reddit announces a $60 million deal to let Google train artificial intelligence models with its forums, prompting some Reddit users to express feeling betrayed by the monetization of their content. But followed by similar lucrative deals with OpenAI two examples, just 2 of public companies where trust was arguably fractured if not broken with its users trust that loaded word. And yet Facebook now Meta has a share price up over 75% since that wall Street Journal report. And Reddit stock is up more than fourfold since its IPO just a month after that Google deal. So what is the value of trust really, at least to the equity markets? Well, I was prompted to think about this more carefully after reading a new book out from Jimmy Wales, and it's called the Seven Rules of Trust Blueprint for Building Things that Last. Jimmy launched Wikipedia in 2001, creating an online encyclopedia that has grown to contain over 64 million articles in more than 300 languages and edited by nearly 260,000 volunteers monthly. While Wikipedia relies on a community driven system of fact checking and writing that's fundamentally built on trust, but despite its success, it's not immune from accusations of exhibiting biases. So I was delighted to welcome Jimmy to our studio to talk about this complicated topic of trust in person. We unpacked the impact on social media of Section 230, which is a US law that protects online platforms from liability for most third party content posted by their users. We talked about how AI changes our ability to trust, but verify if the rise of crypto reflects decline in trust in financial institutions and so much more. Well, here's my interview with Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia. So, Jimmy, I have read, I tore through your book over Thanksgiving. It's right here. The seven Rules of Trust. A blueprint for building things that last. And just because I spend so much of my time in the public markets, I really wanted to find ways to apply the framework for trust that you lay out to companies and brands that dominate business news. And I was feeling a bit sad about it actually. So I really want to get your perspective. When I think about Meta, we know that Instagram violated trust in the sense that we now know there are these studies that looked at the impact on teenagers. If we look at Reddit, another public company, we know that users have been really concerned about the sale of data on Reddit to the likes of OpenAI and if you look at any big tech company, whether it's Alphabet, Google to Microsoft antitrust, and this question around whether scale has been abused and as therefore an abuse of the trust of the user has come up and yet their share prices have gone up and up and up, what does that tell you about the price, the monetary value of trust, or lack of it when it comes to these?
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B
Well, I mean, I think, I mean, that's quite a list of different situations companies. So I would probably have a different view on some of those elements. But I think, certainly if you think about what ultimately drives share price is ultimately about having a good solid business. And I actually think that violating the trust of the users isn't good for business in the long run. It may be good in the short run, but I think that some of these companies are making a mistake in terms of not listening to what their users are saying. And I think every situation is different and what's happening and what the sort of social contract with the users actually is will be slightly different. But you didn't mention X. But as an example there, I think X is really at risk of complete collapse because a lot of people, good, thoughtful people are just like, it's way too toxic. A lot of journalists say, well, I still use it, but I hate it and I don't want to use it. And so, you know, I think because they aren't, you know, being respectful to the needs of the customers, the users, because people are like, it's so horrible, I don't want to go on there anymore. And I think the same thing can happen elsewhere. And I think, you know, for me the most important thing is competition. You know, like, I like to see other competitors come in. We know, in different elements in different spaces. We do see, you know, competition creeping in in various ways. But again, you know, it depends. Every context is, is slightly different.
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A
So when let's, let's talk about X actually, and let's talk about something that X has started not too recently. It's been around for a while, but seemed to have been inspired by Wikipedia. And that's this idea of Community Notes and asking the community to fact check and to verify information that's posted on there. How does that make you feel to see X take that concept and then. And really try and hold it up and say, this is the poster child for why you should trust X and be on our platform.
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B
Yeah. So I like Community Notes. I think it's a fantastic feature. It's kind of, I mean, I do it. I, you know, when I get a message saying, oh, can you rate this? Oh, yeah, I do. I enjoy it and I think it's good. And, you know, I think it's, it's one of the few things, you know, that they have been doing right. And I think it predates Elon, but he's not taking it away. So I think that's a good thing. And, you know, so I think that's great. And of course, it's not anything like Wikipedia, so it's not like they got the idea from me, but just, you know, the idea of checking, I mean, even if you go back to the early days of the Internet, there was a site that I would say in the consciousness of the Internet would be similar to where Reddit is today, although Reddit's much bigger. But Slashdot, Slashdot was like a tech news blog, group blog, but lots of comments and so on. And they had this sort of feature where when you're just using the site, you would randomly be selected to say, oh, can you rate this comment? And it was kind of cool. It was like a jury and kind of anonymous. But it was useful, and they found it very useful in terms of stopping a lot of the trolling and this and that and the other. So I think those kinds of things are definitely what a lot of social media should be looking at. Really. The way I think about it is the more you can trust your users to actually get engaged in the process of moderation, then you're better off than just completely having chaos, you know, trusting.
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A
Your users to moderate themselves and to modify their own behavior. Has that given some of these platforms a get out of jail free card? It basically said it's okay for you to abstain from taking a position or moderating, because the whole premise is that you have your users do it for you?
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B
Yeah. I mean, yes and no. I mean, I think there's been far too little effort in actually doing that. I mean, I think the, one of the great things about the section 230 is that you actually can make decisions and you don't thereby become responsible for everything on the platform. And I think they've not used that enough in enough situations. And then also.
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It'S still very much the case that the moderation decisions at all the major platforms are really top down. They're not coming from other users, they're coming from mysterious processes at the company, which we know doesn't scale very well and hasn't really worked. And so I would, I would love to see them really exploring more mechanisms for the users to have a little more control over the space they're in, the environment they're in. You know, I think I used to love Instagram, but Instagram was great for me. I think they had me on some kind of weird VIP list or something because what was happening? What was your experience? I never saw any ads. Not one. Forever.
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A
Got it.
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B
And I also, I only follow friends, I only follow people I actually know. And so that's all I saw. And then now when I go on Instagram, I get all this sort of viral content and so on. I'm like, I'm not really that interested in it, so I don't use it as much. But also I think, ah, you know, I wish they would have just given me an option to say, I don't want any, I only want to see stuff from my friends. I would still use the platform. And they said, oh well, we're going to have to show you ads then. Okay, I'll take an ad now and then that's not a big deal. But instead they've gone down that path of the addiction thing and I think we've all had the experience and it, it, you would say tick tock, but it's on lots of platforms now that, that short form video and that, that sort of, you end up scrolling through something, you're like, what the hell am I doing? I didn't even mean to go on this, right? I opened the app because I got a notification about my friend and now, you know, sort of 20 minutes later I'm looking at stupid videos. So I'd rather not.
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A
Let's take a quick break with more of my conversation with Jimmy Wells in a moment.
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C
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A
Back to my conversation with the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales. But you just touched on something which I did think about as I was reading your book, which is if the product is compelling enough, how much trust are we willing to give up? So in the example you just gave, Instagram fed you ads, you didn't particularly want them, but just enough, or just little enough that it was still worth you using the platform. When we look at businesses in general, when we look at politics, when we look at other places where trust is so important, are we seeing people say, I'm willing to trade a little bit, give up a little bit of trust, Agree to be a skeptic as long as what I'm getting overall net net works for me?
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B
Well, it depends. I mean, I think the, the trade off between, you know, a free service that's ad supported isn't necessarily about trust. I mean, that, that doesn't violate my trust. If you just show me some ads. You know, I think there's a lot of nuance and details when you, when you really dig into what the policies are and how it all works and what are you doing with my data and all that, it gets complicated. But broadly, I think, you know, people really do, they care a lot about not being violated, you know, that our trust is not violated. It's one thing to say, oh, here's a trade off. I think they're showing too many ads these days. So I don't go on there as much that doesn't feel like I'm being violated. But you know, it's sort of like, well, you, you promised me that you wouldn't do this and now suddenly you're doing it. That doesn't, that, that's not okay. And so, you know, and I think we're seeing, you know, in a lot of areas, I would say the growth of Signal is a good example. So Signal messaging app is run by a nonprofit like Wikipedia, and it's incredibly secure and they're absolutely obsessive about security. And they specifically avoid adding kind of social media features and things like that. It's just pretty much, it's straight, exactly what you want from a, from a messaging app. You message your Friends, your family, whatever. And I think people really appreciate that. I mean, here's a great anecdote. My mother, in her 80s, got really annoyed about some story about Facebook and WhatsApp and privacy. And she's like, these people are ridiculous. I don't know, what can we do? And I said, well, there is this other app, Signal, and it's like, run by a nonprofit like Wikipedia. And she's like, yeah, we're all switching. So she got the whole family to move.
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A
Did she really?
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B
So our family, WhatsApp group is not on WhatsApp, it's on Signal. And I thought that. I mean, that's really interesting because I've used both, of course, because I have tech friends who are on Signal. I never really got agitated enough to say, let's leave. But my mom did in her 80s, and I thought, that's actually an interesting signal that.
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I think Facebook should be worried about. If all the grannies of the world are like, this isn't okay, kids, we've got to move, then people will. So I don't know. It's just an anecdote, but I do think it's interesting. And it is about trust. It is about. I think what she was upset about was some sort of use of data for political purposes in a way that didn't feel right.
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A
Let's talk about trust on Wikipedia. Although I was decided, I really want to interview your mum now. I think that she said, I want to get her perspective on moving to Signal. Let's talk about Wikipedia. I use Wikipedia all the time.
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B
Yeah.
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I'm. I'm fascinated by what an incredible resource it is. And I believe I read that Wikipedia is perhaps the highest, most cited source on chat GPT. Is that. Is that correct? Something like that, yeah. And so the repository of information that's on there is not only valued, but is now going to be distributed even more broadly thanks to these sort of AI apps coming on top of search. Do you feel the burden of responsibility for that?
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B
Oh, definitely, yeah. We have for. For many years. And it's, you know, the fact that we've become part of the infrastructure of the world means that our burden is quite important. It's quite heavy. And we do in our community, and we have a real sense of that, that we need to be very careful with our principles and do all the right things. And obviously we know we're not perfect and we make mistakes and we get things wrong. That's okay. I think it's okay. As long as we're always ready to accept the Criticism and say, okay, like, how do we fix this? What's gone wrong? What do we need to do?
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Because, you know, I do think.
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You know that that position is.
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It's just, it is a, like, people have put their trust in us, either directly or indirectly. And so it's important.
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And how are you thinking about? There's the opportunity of AI, it's building awareness of Wikipedia, it's adding to the importance of what's been built. But there is also the risk that AI becomes incredibly sophisticated in the creation of false source data. How are you using, this is the collective view of all Wikipedians, AI to detect inaccurate information.
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B
So we aren't really using AI to detect inaccurate information because it just isn't good enough. Like, the problem is AIs hallucinate and they get things wrong and so on and so forth. That doesn't mean we're not going to use AI in certain ways. Whenever the technology is doing something that we find useful and not too erroneous, we'll find ways to use it. But at least at the present time, we're not doing that. And realistically, our community is completely obsessed with the quality of sources. One of the concerns I have is it's become very easy these days to generate a very large, very comprehensive fake news website that looks very much like any other news site by just, you know, just using AI to produce loads and loads of content. Yeah. And in fact, there's a couple of like tech websites where I suspect they're using it a little more than I would like to write sort of silly little posts, you know, like, you know, the 5 open source application to install that kind of clickbait and some of that, it's like, well, we've had that for a while and you know, sometimes you're like, oh yeah, what are the five open source things I should install? You know, because I'm always looking for something new to play with and you know, and it's sort of low quality. But if it's really low quality and just like nonsense, and if it makes up a complete software package that doesn't exist, that's going to really damage my trust. But because of that, I think the issue is most people aren't obsessives about what is the name of the real newspaper in Denver, Colorado? Is it the Denver Guardian? No, it is not. And so if you see the Denver Guardian, you're not going to fool Wikipedians because they're very experienced at this, but you'll fool loads of people because I don't know the name of the newspaper in Denver. So I see a story, it looks plausible. Also looks the nature of viral content. It's something that I either.
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I'm afraid of or I'm hopeful for. And so you tend to forward it gravitate to what. Yeah, my example of. And this was completely random, of when I was nearly taken in by fake news. And it's just sort of. I think it tells us something. There was a story saying, scientists have proven what we've always suspected, which is if your cat were big enough, it would eat you. And I'm like, that's funny. Like, we all think that, right? And you all look at your cat.
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I'm quite small, so it's entirely.
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It's entirely possible.
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Yeah.
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And I thought, oh, that's hilarious. I'm gonna send it to my daughter who has cats, you know, and then I thought, hold on a minute, like, and I looked. And look at the name of the professor was real. And the study I found online. The study didn't say anything at all like that interesting. The study simply was comparing psychological traits of big cats and house cats, and it didn't say anything about eating you. I mean, you could sort of get that conclusion. But I was like, yeah, this is. This is fake news. This is a overhyped story and it's very cute and I shouldn't send it around. Like, viral content.
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A
Yeah, you're amplifying it.
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B
So for Wikipedia, though, it'd be pretty hard to fool the Wikipedians. And that's with humans. And I think that's for now. Humans in the loop is absolutely critical. Now, of course, we can think in a speculative way about the future of AI. And, you know, this. This being a show about the markets and public companies, that's obviously on many people's minds, like, super interesting. And so I think, you know, right now.
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I think large language models are an amazing technology. Really fantastic. It's very exciting for the future. In 20 years time, maybe AI could write a full Wikipedia entry and do a great job, and then that's definitely going to have an impact on us. I mean, it is what it is, like the, the march of time, but in the meantime, you know, I think there's still so much about it that just isn't right.
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A
Did you. I mean, this is going to sound wacky, but just bear with me for a moment. Did you watch the latest round of Mission Impossible movies?
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B
I have not.
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A
You have not? Well, the premise on my list, I think here's why. And this will make more sense to you. After you've watched it.
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B
I haven't seen any of the Tom Cruise Mission Impossible movies.
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A
Must, must, must. So in the latest one a spoiler alert, folks. What happens is in the latest series of Mission Impossible, something called the entity is effectively a highly intelligent artificial intelligence being and has the power to go through and effectively rewrite anything that's digital and manipulate anything that is digital information. And the whole idea is it puts the national world, the world order at risk, of course, because nobody knows what truth is anymore because this mal intended entity is just changing all the source data. Okay, so bear with me. I told you this was going to be wacky and now you're going to watch the video. Do we need hard copies? Do we need printed copies? Are we going to see the value of libraries? Because there is a risk one day that digital information could be manipulated. So we go back to finding the Encyclopedia Britannica to verify the world is round, for example. I mean, it's an absurd example, but conceptually, do you sort of see what I'm getting at?
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B
I do. I mean, I do think.
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Sort of I'm approaching it in two ways. One is a philosophical puzzle and the other is a purely technical question. As a technical question, I think it's completely insane. I think we do need immutable backups. So immutable meaning write once, read many. And there's lots and lots of ways to get at that. I mean, the idea of you can hack whatever you want, but you can't really change like what's on a cd, you know, it's burned in forever. But also, you know, it would be really hard to conceive of. You know, people have offline backups, air gapped backups. And I think stuff like that is actually very important.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I would hope, you know, people like the Internet Archive.
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You know, they don't keep everything they have online at all times. They probably do have sort of air gapped offline. So that's important. So it makes the whole prim is a bit bonkers. But you know, I do think.
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I think libraries are great. And books, I love libraries.
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You know, I, I actually, I do most of my reading these days on my phone on a Kindle because I mainly get a chance to read when I'm traveling and it's just a little bit heavy to carry around paper books. So I do like that. But even, even so when I go on vacation in the summer, I'm much happier with a paper book. I always love to talk about the amazing technology of a paper book. Like, you can get it wet, you can get sand on it. Right. You can lose it. It's so cheap and it's like, it works and no batteries required.
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So it's a great technology and it's a very aesthetically pleasing way of writing something. But of course, like most people, I, I do digital stuff.
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A
We do both.
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D
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E
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A
You referenced your daughter, right? You're a parent, and one of the questions at the moment is where do young people learn how to trust? Where do they learn the power of faith and confidence? A lot of the institutions that taught us to have faith or to have or to trust, they aren't exactly the same thing, but have gone away. Right. Whether it was places of worship, there's a question mark around. Are schools trusted environments? There's community activities like the Scouts have had issues and trust has been broken over the years. As a parent, where do you look at young people now and say, this is where you can learn how to trust, but verify and get that skill set?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I mean, for me, sort of as a parent, I'm not an expert on parenting, but I'm a dad. I'm pretty good dad, I think.
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A
And you're an expert in trust, we would argue.
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B
Yeah. And I mean, I, I actually think it very much starts at home. And, you know, if you, if you look at.
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You know, at the field of psychology and, and studies of various issues and problems people have in life, a lot of them do stem back to. If you're raised in an environment that is chaotic and untrustworthy, it causes real damage, real psychological damage. And so young people. So let's just talk about. I mean, obviously this is true for little kids as well. But for teenagers, there's that. I mean, there's this really hard problem, which is a hard problem for all parents of teenagers, which is they're ready to start spreading their wings and have a little more independence and so forth. And even as we support that, we also are a little nervous about it and so on and so forth. And for me, I think they do respond very, very well to. They want to do something and you're not quite sure, oh, you're going to go where and you're going to do it with who. But to really be open about trust and to really say, look, I trust you. You've told me where you're going to go and who you're going to be with. I trust you, and I expect you to live up to that trust. And the truth is, they do. They do. They think that's valuable. And especially if you lay it out in a way of like, here's why behaving in a trustworthy manner is important, because it will allow me to let you do even more things in the future. So just let's. Let's do this. And you're growing and we're going to figure it out, and you'll be an adult soon, and I just want to keep you safe. And too many parents get into this sort of conflict mode where it's like a total lockdown. The kids aren't allowed to do anything. The kids therefore rebel and do stuff that they're not allowed to do and so on and so forth. And, you know, I just think there's a better way. And I think a part of that is really thinking about trust, thinking about, you know, what are the things that we need to do. I mean, one of them is, you know, to get trust, give trust. So you've gotta. You've gotta give trust to the kids, and then they will begin to trust you more. And so when you say, no, actually, I don't think this is a good idea. I don't think you should do that. They're not gonna go, well, you never let me do anything. Well, they might. They're teenagers.
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A
But game theory has a lot to say about it.
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B
Yeah, but, you know, it's sort of like, yeah, yeah. And so I think there's that. And then I think in schools, the same kind of thing I would say, about schools, schools that have draconian sort of lockdown rules, and it's basically a tyrannical regime. The kids don't end up thriving and growing and behaving as well, so we need to have that. So I think there's a lot of details here. Similarly, we can go into the workplace. So a lot of young people entering the workplace for the first time. I mean, I, for me, I just can't even conceive of this. But, you know, you see these stories about companies that are using software when people are working remote to make sure they're at their computer the whole time and they're sort of monitoring. Like, that's just terrible. Like, that's not a proper way to treat people. It's saying, I don't trust you. I think the minute I'm not on your case at work, you're going to be sleeping on the sofa instead of doing your job. And I just don't think you're going to get the best out of people. I think people are going to be kind of. I don't know, I saw people are buying other software to make it look like their mouse is moving. You know, like, you're going to get into that, and then I'm going to be like, yeah, well, don't go and sleep on the sofa when you get a chance. Go and look for a job, you know, because you don't want to work somewhere that. That's, that's, that's so toxic like that. And I, I think if you want to get the best out of employees, you have to give a little trust and say, look, I, you know, like, oh, you're going to work from home. Can't really monitor everything you're doing, but here's the work that's got to get done. I trust you're going to do the right thing, and I think people do live up to that.
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A
There are signs that, conversely.
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When I look at the markets, there are signs in certain asset classes now that are signaling that trust in some of the institutions we almost take for granted is a strong word, but have upheld the markets and the economy as we know it has degraded. And one specific example has been the growth in crypto and Bitcoin. And when I talk to guests about why they got involved in crypto, why they got interested in bitcoin in the first place, often the answer I get back is I just don't believe that the setup of the US Economy is going to be able to survive. I don't trust the Fed, I don't trust the government to have fiscal stability. What do you say to that? And the erosion of trust in, In. In institutions that are so important for what we.
- [29:07]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I Think it's super interesting. And so with respect to crypto in particular, I mean, people do think about, you know, trust in encryption that, you know, you know, with a pretty high degree of mathematical certainty, certain things about how it works and all of that. And that does have an appeal for people versus, you know, depending on the Federal Reserve for the value of the dollar and things like that. At the same time, I think a lot of people in crypto have been a little bit cavalier and blind to the incredible low levels of trust that people quite rightly have in crypto because there's so many scams, there's so much, you know, it's like completely secure. Like, I made a joke once on Twitter, which the crypto Bros. Did not like, but I stand by it, which is I just joked, I'm like, oh, I lost the password to my bank account and so now I've lost all my money. Because if you lose your password, you know, your passphrase for your crypto, you quite likely have lost it forever. But if you lose your bank password, you just go into the bank with your ID and you get your account unlocked like it's not a thing. And so failing to understand, like, actually most people really don't want to be scammed. They don't want to have a currency that fluctuates in value like crazy, and this feeling like the whole thing is a little bit rigged and so on. So I think they have to be really a lot more serious about that if they want to build institutions that are trustworthy in that space. But in the meantime, yeah, the broader question of, you know, a decline in trust in society in lots of different ways is super problematic. You know, I think, you know, you see, I, like most people, I'm on Reddit quite a lot and I'm reading this and that, and there is a pretty disconcerting, you know, I see people in tech discussion. So right now, obviously, we're having this massive spike in RAM prices. So memory prices have shot up in the last few months, just through the roof. And what's interesting is the assumption a lot of people have, they're like, well, this is the way it always is. The big companies are trying to squeeze us and they just want to make more money and the prices is going up. And it's always like that. I'm like, yeah, but you're talking about technology where everything cost 1/1,000th of what it did 10 years ago. And the idea that clearly at the moment there's this spike because of a lot of reasons and so on. And you might criticize this company or that because they're withholding supply, because of whatever. But the truth is we've had a very, very competitive market. Prices come down dramatically sort of decade after decade. There seems to be no end in sight to that. And so what I just wonder about is if everybody's instinct is like, capitalism is horrible because the companies cheat you and then it all ends in tears. It's like, well, hold on. Not really. It doesn't actually. Capitalism is the system that's given us incredible prosperity. And, yeah, whatever problems we have, we need to look at how to fix that. But broadly, this is actually really important because your other alternative is command and control economy. And we know how that definitely ends in tears.
- [32:07]
A
Or anarchy or anarchy or anarchy on the other end of the spectrum. I don't know whether the last question I have for you sort of ties to command and control or anarchy more closely, but let's just go back to X and Elon Musk for a second and talk about Grokopedia.
- [32:25]
Describe it in your words. I want to hear you describe it and then just what you think of it.
- [32:28]
B
Because I've been out doing my book tour, I haven't had enough time to really dig deep. I looked at it, of course, and I've read some news stories about it. I mean, so far it seems it's pretty much what you would expect. So if you use a large language model to write 800,000 articles, there's going to be a lot about it that's bad, low quality. It's either basically just copied from Wikipedia or.
- [32:54]
It'S repetitive and confusing because it got lost in the middle of something. It has irrelevant details, it has hallucinations, it gets things wrong. The other thing is Elon claims it will be more neutral than Wikipedia. Okay, that's a laudable goal. I mean, it's not easy, but let's try. And yet it seems to be very aligned with certain of his more unusual political views. And so I wouldn't call that neutrality myself. And so I think in terms of the trust, I mean, one of the things about Wikipedia that I can say is, like, I'm not the editor in chief of Wikipedia. There are things in Wikipedia that I don't agree with, but it's not my position to sort of overrule people and do that. Do people trust Elon to not overrule something if he doesn't like what's in a part of history? Maybe not. And I think he's got to think about that. And so, yeah, there's a lot, a lot going on in the world.
- [33:47]
A
Do you think he sometimes gets the benefit of the doubt because he is so filterless? I mean, there is a part of your book that I read you talk about sort of radical transparency. Do you think that he and others like him. I mean, I would put President Trump in this bucket where people say, look, they're so transparent about what they're. The biases are that people say, I sort of trust them because of that as opposed to in spite of it.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah, I don't know. That's a puzzle. I mean, I think there are differences because Trump doesn't seem to have any particular ideological views really, that are fixed over time. He just says whatever gets him power today and contradicts himself two weeks later and so on and so forth. Whereas Elon does seem to have a certain worldview that he more or less sticks to. They are both flamboyant and noisy and all of that. And the truth is, we've seen this with many, many politicians over the years. There's sort of almost like two basic types of politicians. One who, a scandal would be horrifying to them and would be damaging to their career, and the other who are just like, that's who I am, just embrace it. And then people sometimes forgive that and then they come to accept it. I mean, you know, we've had, you know, in, in the UK where I live, Boris Johnson was not widely considered to be a trustworthy person, but people kind of forgave it. He, you know, they liked some of the things he was doing and this, that and the other. And so the kind of thing that would be a complete career ending scandal for.
- [35:20]
Keir Starmer, who's the current Prime Minister, who is kind of a pretty straight kind of guy, and, and not flamboyant and all of that would just, you know, like, you know, he just ignored it like it was fine. And so that. I find that odd myself. And actually one of my goals with the book is to say, look, we, you know, as consumers of politics, just as consumers of any services or any businesses, like, if, if you don't trust it, don't vote for it. And, you know, like, there's actually, you know, let's have a real demand for politicians who are trustworthy. And, and, you know, there is a toxicity in the enormous decline of trust in society that we've seen for the Edelman Trust Barometer Survey and all that, which is if people say, well, they're all, they're all crooks. They're all liars. So therefore I can't judge on that basis. Okay, well, let's slow down a little bit. They aren't all crooks, they aren't all liars. Some of them are wrong about stuff and this, that and the other and all of that. But we can say, you know what actually, you know.
- [36:22]
Certain behaviors that are not trustworthy or actually should be career ending.
- [36:27]
A
Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, author of the Seven Rules of Trust blueprint for building things that last. Thank you very much for joining. Fantastic book. And come back. Exciting stuff. Thank you. Well, huge thanks to Jimmy Wells for joining me to round out our week. Well, it's 4:00pm on the east Coast. There's the bell, the markets wrapping up for the day. John, did anything catch your eye this week?
- [36:50]
B
Yes.
- [36:50]
F
Going into the holiday shopping weekend, I have to say I saw a category that I'm going to call Mall Stocks making a lot of headlines. Shares in Bath and Body works were up 10% over the last week. Black Friday store Traffic there rose 23.7% versus last year. Abercrombie and Fitch is seeing record sales. Shares up over 40% over the past few weeks. And according to Black Friday data, traffic to Gap stores was up 12 and a half percent over last year's Black Friday. And shares in the Gap company, and that's Old Navy and Banana Republic, they're up 19% over the past several weeks. There is data that says that overall foot traffic at malls is up this year. Gen Z is looking to get out of the house, have an experience and connect with people just like high schoolers have done for decades.
- [37:32]
A
On that note, not only do I have that Friday feeling, I've got that holiday shopping feeling. So I know how I am going to be spending my weekend. I'll be browsing. I don't enjoy shopping. I'm going to get on with it and try and get ahead of that last minute gift giving. That's it folks for today's Brew Markets Daily.
- [37:48]
F
And Brew Markets Daily is hosted by Ann Berry and produced by John Croteau, Tarek Abdelatif and Emily Millarn. Our Technical director is Uchena Waugu. Jim Morso is our audio engineer and the president of Morning Brew Inc. Is Devin Emery. We'd love to hear from you. If you have any feedback, a company you'd like us to cover or simply a local mall to recommend, send an email or voice memo to brewmarketshoworningbrew.com Wake.
- [38:09]
A
Up on Monday with the Morning Brew newsletter and tune in to Neil and Toby on Morning Brew daily. We'll see you back here on. On Monday, same time, same place.