David Goodwin: Forging the American Mind

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Brian Kilmeade Show

Episode: David Goodwin: Forging the American Mind
Date: June 21, 2026
Host: Brian Kilmeade
Guest: David Goodwin, author and advocate for Classical Christian Education

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Overview

This episode centers on an engaging discussion between Brian Kilmeade and David Goodwin, author of Forging the American Mind: A Year by Year Guide for Classical Christian Education. They explore the transformative power of classical Christian education in shaping young minds, instilling virtue and wisdom, and preserving American values. Goodwin shares insights into what distinguishes classical Christian schools, their growing popularity, the challenges they face, and the underlying philosophy that connects education with the American story. The conversation also touches on the role of technology, religious integration, and decentralization in today’s education system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of American Education

• Education Dominates National Conversations
  • Kilmeade highlights education as a frequently debated topic across all social gatherings and contexts, emphasizing its importance to Americans of all backgrounds.
  • Quote: "I don't know if a hotter topic... than education. I really don't." — Brian Kilmeade (01:55)
• Concerns Over National Values
  • Kilmeade and Goodwin discuss a perceived decline in patriotism and understanding of free enterprise among students, attributing this to changes in educational practices.

2. What is Classical Christian Education?

• Definition & Historical Context
  • Goodwin explains that classical Christian education models itself after the system used by America's Founding Fathers, focusing on teaching students how to think, not just what to know.
  • Quote: "Really what it is is an education that teaches you how to think well… most education tries to teach you a lot of facts. This is more of a formative type of education that brings students to be able to reason through things." — David Goodwin (03:00)
• Truth & Integration
  • Unlike fragmented, fact-based learning, the classical Christian model integrates all subjects with Christian principles, cultivating discernment and critical reasoning.

3. Growth and Challenges of Classical Schools

• Expanding Network
  • Goodwin notes the rapid growth: about 1,200 classical schools nationwide, with around 500 in his association.
• Teacher Training Struggles
  • Difficulty arises because most teachers are trained in progressive educational methods. Thus, these schools often recruit individuals from other academic disciplines and retrain them classically.
  • Quote: "Our schools don't do very well kind of retreading teachers from a progressive background. So we end up training a lot of teachers from the ground up." — David Goodwin (04:44)

4. Critique of Public Schools & COVID's Impact

• Diminishing Outcomes
  • Goodwin laments the worsening situation in many public schools, especially in New York City, despite significant funding.
  • COVID exacerbated these issues, lowering literacy and test scores nationwide.
  • Quote: "During COVID... students realized that education must not be that important because we suspended it for a couple of years." — David Goodwin (05:42)

5. Religious Integration in Education

• Beyond Bible Class
  • Goodwin distinguishes classical Christian schools by their holistic integration of faith across all subjects, rather than compartmentalizing it into standalone classes.
  • Quote: "We sort of envelop [Christianity] in all of our... subjects... the entirety of knowledge... can be united into a single system of knowledge." — David Goodwin (06:53)
• Unified Worldview
  • The curriculum presents history and literature as part of a purposeful divine narrative, contrasting it with the secular, evolutionary perspective prevalent in public education.

6. Teaching the American Story

• Contextualizing 1776
  • Students learn about the deep Western roots that culminate in America's founding, including studies of Roman, Greek, and other influences.
  • Quote: "1776 didn't spring up in 1775. It's the product of thousands of years of Western civilization..." — David Goodwin (08:30)
• Patriotism Through Understanding
  • Goodwin asserts a richer appreciation for American freedoms comes from understanding their philosophical and historical underpinnings.

7. Decentralization and Parental Control

• Skepticism of Centralized Education
  • Goodwin supports local or parent-directed education over federal oversight, emphasizing scriptural justification and American traditions.
  • Quote: "Central control takes more control out of the hands of the parents... the national move to dissolve the Department of Education is a good move." — David Goodwin (12:04)
• Advocacy for Private Sector Schools
  • He believes shifting power to communities and families is key to effective education.

8. Technology and AI in Education

• Risks of Over-Reliance
  • While AI can efficiently teach information, Goodwin argues its methods undermine the teaching of wisdom, critical thought, and virtue.
  • Quote: "If we want our kids to become like little automaton computers, then it's fine to put them into an AI environment... we really would want them to be studying under a teacher who's a human, who can teach them virtue, not just stuff." — David Goodwin (13:16)
• The Perils of Digital Learning
  • Kilmeade expresses concern over digital distractions and the cognitive differences between handwriting and typing.

9. The Value of Handwriting and 'Commonplace Books'

• Practices for Deep Learning
  • Goodwin praises the practice of maintaining handwritten commonplace books — personal journals of meaningful quotations and ideas. He notes many intellectuals have used this method for centuries.
  • Quote: "Most of the people that you would admire intellectually kept these things called commonplaces where they wrote down the most important parts of any book that they would read." — David Goodwin (15:23)
• Reagan’s Example
  • The book’s introduction features a quote (with a preserved error) from Ronald Reagan’s own commonplace book, reinforcing the tradition’s value for memory and reflection.
• A Family Anecdote
  • Goodwin shares a personal story about how his daughter treasured her school commonplace books into college, making her younger siblings jealous.

10. About the New Book

• Purpose and Structure
  • Forging the American Mind aims to explain, step by step, how any school or parent can implement a classical Christian curriculum — described as an "Army Field Guide" for education.
  • Quote: "This book... is sort of a year by year guide... like the Army Field Guide for Classical Christian Education." — David Goodwin (17:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Roots of Western Education:
  • “Education is what feeds from, you know, the very roots of our civilization.” — David Goodwin (02:23)
• On AI as Teacher:
  • “If we want our kids to become like little automaton computers, then it's fine to put them into an AI environment.” — David Goodwin (13:16)
• On America’s Founding:
  • “1776 didn't spring up in 1775. It's the product of thousands of years of Western civilization...” — David Goodwin (08:30)
• On Decentralization:
  • “Central control takes more control out of the hands of the parents.” — David Goodwin (12:04)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:32 — Introduction of David Goodwin and his new book.
• 03:00 — Goodwin explains classical Christian education.
• 04:44 — Challenges in teacher recruitment and training.
• 05:42 — Goodwin critiques public schools and COVID-19’s impact.
• 06:53 — Integration of religion into every subject.
• 08:30 — Curriculum’s connection to the American founding.
• 12:04 — Discussion of central vs. local educational control.
• 13:16 — Goodwin’s critique of AI and technology in classrooms.
• 15:23 — The value of handwriting, journaling, and 'commonplace books'.
• 17:44 — Goodwin discusses the field guide approach of his book.

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Tone and Style

Throughout their conversation, both Brian Kilmeade and David Goodwin use conversational, accessible language. Kilmeade asks pointed, practical questions as a concerned parent and journalist, while Goodwin responds thoughtfully, combining historical context, personal anecdotes, and principled arguments rooted in faith and tradition. The tone is earnest and slightly urgent, with both speakers expressing concern about the current trajectory of American education and optimism about alternatives rooted in classical methods.

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Summary

In this episode, listeners gain a clear understanding of what makes classical Christian education distinctive and why its proponents believe it is necessary for preserving both virtue and the American experiment. The guest, David Goodwin, offers passionate, detailed arguments for a return to formative, integrated teaching practices, underpinned by faith and historical awareness. The discussion is timely and engaging, offering both critique of existing systems and a hopeful blueprint for change.

Transcript

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[Brian Kilmeade]

Goodwin joins us now. Something totally different. Let's talk education. He's got a brand new book out forging the American A Year by Year Guide for Classical Christian Education. His last book he wrote with Pete Hegseth who went on to become Secretary of War. David, congratulations on the book.

[David Goodwin]

Well, thanks a lot Brian. I appreciate it. It was a few years since we wrote the original, so it's good to get out again.

[Brian Kilmeade]

Transforming K through 12 learning practices for Teaching Virtue and Wisdom. I don't know if a hotted topic consistently in any barbecue tailgate small family gathering than education. I really don't.

Even if your kids aren't in school,

it's the talk of how are we raising a bunch of kids that don't love the country? How are we raising a bunch of kids that don't embrace free enterprise? And that's what we're seeing. And you go back to education, fundamental education, can't you?

[David Goodwin]

Well, right. I think we've seen, you know, we've had a respite here of a few good years. We, you know, certainly after that show that was in Washington Sunday night, we look and we realize, we may not realize that education is what feeds from, you know, the very roots of our civilization. It feeds the west and America with our values. And so if we don't invest in a very different form of education now, it'll be hard to keep the republic.

[Brian Kilmeade]

So give me an idea what a Christian education would look like.

[David Goodwin]

Well, classical Christian education is the form of education that the founding fathers had. So we call it classical Christian because when it was restarted, it had to have a name. Back then they just called it education. Really what it is is an education that teaches you how to think well, which seems like that's what most education should do. But when you think about it, most education tries to teach you a lot of facts. This is more of a formative type of education that brings students to be able to reason through things. The form was re established following an essay by early 20th century author named Dorothy Sayers, who said that children in the media age are given lots of words, but they, they just really don't know how to assess what the truth is. And so that's what our task is in our form of education. Classical Christian education is to train students in truth.

[Brian Kilmeade]

And how many schools are there like this? And would you say, separate this from, let's say, a charter school?

[David Goodwin]

Well, our schools, there's about 1200 in the country. We have about 500. And the membership of the association that I run, we do accreditation for these types of schools. So there's a variety of different forms. There are some charter schools that do classical education as well. Obviously it's not classical Christian education. So it's a growing form. It's been very popular, and we're actually struggling to keep up with the growth and train enough teachers.

[Brian Kilmeade]

So in other words, you have trouble getting teachers.

[David Goodwin]

Well, teachers who are trained in the progressive method. If you remember the book that Pete and I wrote together, we talked about the progressive takeover of education through the institutions like the teachers, colleges. So our schools don't do very well kind of retreading teachers from a progressive background. So we end up training a lot of teachers from the ground up. They're often people who went through college, maybe in literature, history, maybe in science. So they're people who, you know, are actually doers that then want to get in the classroom and we train them how to do it classically.

[Brian Kilmeade]

All right. And what do you worry most about our current school system especially? I watch New York City. We pay more for our school system in New York City. Anybody that has the wherewithal does not use those schools in New York City. And it's a shame because we're pouring money into it, but we're not getting anything out of it.

[David Goodwin]

Right. Actually, it's grown much worse. This is a sort of poorly held secret for parents who are out in the system right now. It got worse after because during COVID most of the institutional gravity, I guess you could say that was carrying long literacy and other things kind of fell apart as students realized that education must not be that important because we suspended it for a couple of years. And so what has happened across the country is if you look at the test scores, things have plummeted since then. And so it's necessary now more than ever to get your kids into, I would say, a classical Christ school, but certainly a school in the private sector that is doing true education of some form.

[Brian Kilmeade]

What role does religion have in the school? I know my son went to a boys school on Long island that was Christian. I don't want to give the name out, but. And they had to go religion every day, every semester was a different religious course. And they definitely had different masses they had to go during the day. What are your requirements?

[David Goodwin]

Well, our schools are quite different because we don't encapsulate the Christianity into a class or course. We sort of envelop it in all of our over or pen. It penetrates all of our subjects. And so when we study literature, for example, we're looking for the Christ types in that literature. When we study ancient history, we're looking at a parallel history between, say, the Greeks and the Romans and the Hebrews. And so our form is very integrated because the idea behind classical Christian education is that the entirety of knowledge, everything that we can know, can. Can be united into a single system of knowledge, a single thing. And that's unique to classical education because it's not as fragmented as public schools. When you think about it, Christianity brings together all things into one story of history where God is working purposefully. That's very different than an evolutionary mindset where history, literature, philosophy, those are all just things that happen to be, as opposed to were structured for reasons. So it's that very sense of purpose that makes classical education different.

[Brian Kilmeade]

David Goodwin joins us as he's written the forging of the American Mind forward by Pete Hegseth the Year by Year Guide for Classical Christian Education how does David how does your school weave in the American story? And why do you think they work well together so well?

[David Goodwin]

Well, to make an obvious point, 1776 didn't spring up in 1775. It's the product of thousands of years of Western civilization and Western history. So our students work their way through that. They understand the Roman Republic, the Greek democracy, the Byzantine government, and the many governments that have followed on since then, and how they led through things like the Magna Carta, the development of common excuse me, of the common legal system. All of this crescendos into 1776. And so our students grow to understand the big picture. And it makes it makes for a deeper patriot, if you will, someone who understands not just that America's land of the free, but deeply understand how different that is from all other civilizations Nearly

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[Brian Kilmeade]

hearing, you know, we're trying to. Linda McMahon got the chance to talk to her a lot and trying to revamp education by giving more power to the states and getting it out no longer centrally located. What's your view on that? Because, for example, some of the. I guess not. It's not for everybody, but some of the fundamentals of what you believe in would be great for the whole country. How do you feel about giving up some type of control from Washington? And in turn, you know, you might not be worried about Oklahoma, you might be worried about Texas, but you might be really worried about Chicago and New York City. So how do you feel about giving up central control?

[David Goodwin]

Well, I don't think central control is ever going to work, even if we had a perfect school system, because central control takes more control out of the hands of the parents. And when you look, you know, biblically and scripturally, from a Christian standpoint, Ephesians 6 says, clearly education is the domain of the parents. If you look at the founding fathers, they didn't even conceive of a public school system. That came much later. They anticipated more of a common school where the community would come together and form up. So I think the national move to dissolve the Department of Education is a policy is a good move. I think the department was used for nefarious reasons many times in the past. But I do think that even at the state level, we need to push down more to the local communities, get, get the government of schools closer to the people and preferably out of the hands of government altogether, which is what our movement's about. That's why we only work in the private sector.

[Brian Kilmeade]

How do you feel the role of AI in education?

[David Goodwin]

Oh, that's a good question. Well, one of the interesting things, I've done some research on this AI, it turns out, is very good at teaching kids stuff. If you look, there's one organization out there that is claiming they can do everything in two hours that a public school does in six hours by just using AI. And I would believe that to be true because most progressive schools are trying to teach kids information stuff, right? Things like what can you. What do you know and what can you do? The thing about classical Christian education is that it takes, it flips the script on that. It really is less interested in what information you know, it's more interested that you're able to think well. And if you think about it, AIs take over that function. They do the thinking for you when you're learning with them. Even if they're programmed to try and inquire and get you to think, they're still getting you to think after them. There's a scripture verse that says that student will become like the master. It's in Luke. And if we want our kids to become like little automaton computers, then it's fine to put them into an AI environment. But if the Bible's true and the student will become like the master, we really would want them to be studying under a teacher who's a human, who can teach them virtue, not just stuff.

[Brian Kilmeade]

And then I was seeing this interesting study about. And you know, there are some. When there's things like TikTok which are insidious and were put out by a foreign adversary to manipulate us. I believe that. I don't care who owns it. But number two is I think the well meaning people wanted laptops in schools. They thought it would be a great way to consolidate everything, give people be able to test. You don't have to bring around 20 textbooks wherever you go. And they're finding studies that you need to grab a pen and write things that using a keyboard does not imprint on the brain. I don't blame anyone for that. I thought that was just a way of keeping the classroom up with the real, real life. What do you find out? What do you believe?

[David Goodwin]

Boy, that's a great question, Brian. So in the book, this is the book in chapter. Well, it's the third part, we have a whole section. I have a whole section on teaching penmanship and writing what are called commonplace books. In fact, in the introduction to the book, I use a quote from Reagan's Commonplace Book. Most of the people that you would admire intellectually kept these things called commonplaces where they wrote down the most important parts of any book that they would read. They did it longhand. In fact, there are actually errors of script in Reagan's Commonplace Book. And there's an Easter egg for your audience. One of those errors is actually printed in the dedication quote to this book because we took it straight out of Reagan's Commonplace Book. And the significance of that is that our students learn to handwrite. Well, we teach cursive because there's a lot of script writing in that and there's a tangibility to it when you're working with an actual journal and writing down and keeping track. My daughter went through a classical Christian school and she kept commonplace books. There were several of them. By the time she got to the 12th grade, she took them with her to college. Her younger brothers weren't happy about that because they often used it to kind of figure out what was going on. My daughter was a better student. But the funny part is these books go with these kids for life. And I think it's just one of the many features of classical Christian education that stand out when you understand how it works, which is really what Forging the American Mind was about is when we got done with when Pete and I got done with Battle for the American Mind. Pete went on to write War on Warriors and asked me to go ahead and write the follow on. So I wrote this follow on and the editors said, well, we've created a lot of demand. Why don't you explain how to do it? And that's what this book is, is it's sort of a year by year guide. I, you know, we, Pete and I use some military metaphors a lot for obvious reasons, and we call it like the Army Field Guide for Classical Christian Education.

[Brian Kilmeade]

Congratulations, David, on the book Forging the American Mind. A Year by Year Guide for Classical Christian Education. Transforming K through 12 learning practices for Teaching Virtue and Wisdom. David, thank you. Best of luck with the book.

[David Goodwin]

Thanks so much, Brian.

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