How Greg Gutfeld Defeated Late-Night TV & Forced the Cancellation of Colbert

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Brian Kilmeade Show
Episode: How Greg Gutfeld Defeated Late-Night TV & Forced the Cancellation of Colbert
Date: May 20, 2026
Host: Brian Kilmeade
Guest: Mark Malkoff, comedian and author of Love Johnny Carson: One Obsessive Fan's Journey to Find the Genius Behind the Legend

---

Overview

This episode explores the dramatic evolution and current crisis facing late-night television, marked by declining ratings, the end of the Colbert era on CBS, and the rise of alternative voices like Greg Gutfeld. Brian Kilmeade and guest Mark Malkoff revisit late-night’s golden years, its shift toward overt political commentary, and what the future might hold for the genre, all set against the backdrop of Johnny Carson’s legacy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

The Changing Landscape of Late-Night TV

• Historical Ratings Perspective:
  • Carson in his heyday drew 7 million viewers; Letterman’s numbers were around 3 million when he left. By comparison, recent late-night shows like Kimmel, Fallon, and Colbert average just around 2 million.
  • Colbert’s last week is discussed as a pivotal moment; though he topped the ratings race, his show was losing money.
  • Brian: “...on average they if take Kimmel, if you take Fallon and you take Colbert they get about a 2 where Carson... was getting about 7 million...” (00:00)

---

The Legacy of Carson and Letterman

• Malkoff’s Experience:

  • Worked for David Letterman's Late Show and Stephen Colbert’s Colbert Report, bringing unique insight.
  • Letterman was “comedy royalty,” and the shift from Carson to Letterman and Leno was a huge cultural event.
  • Malkoff: “August 30th, 1993, 23 million people tune into David Letterman's debut. CBS stock went up. He owned this show.” (01:52)

• Neutrality and Longevity:

  • Carson's lasting success attributed to his refusal to reveal personal politics, ensuring widespread appeal.
  • Malkoff: “He 100% believed, I am doing an entertainment show. America does not care about my politics. And why would I want to alienate half of my audience?” (03:31)

---

The Politicization of Late Night

• The Turn Toward Politics:

  • Letterman’s late-career shift to more openly mocking politicians; influenced by Jon Stewart’s success with political humor on The Daily Show.
  • Malkoff: “It's when Jon Stewart, the Daily Show Letterman pointed to Jon Stewart having some political leanings that Dave felt he could do that.” (02:42)
  • Brian, responding: “The first time I thought David Letterman weighed in on politics was when John McCain was running and he did nonstop McCain old jokes.” (02:29)

• Carson as an Equal Opportunity Offender:

  • Carson “hammered everyone”—from Joe Biden to Gerald Ford—yet maintained neutrality in public.
  • Malkoff: “Carson was at the White House. It really just depended on the person...” (03:31)

---

Colbert’s Era and Departure

• Colbert’s Transformation:

  • Initially avoided politics on CBS, even booking guests across the political spectrum (Trump, Cruz, Musk).
  • When Colbert adopted a more overt political stance, his ratings surged, breaking norms.
  • Malkoff: “He did the unheard of which was he picked a political side and it really did turn up his ratings.” (06:32)

• Colbert’s Faith:

  • Malkoff highlights Colbert as a practicing Catholic and Sunday school teacher, noting his defense of Christianity during interviews, suggesting the possibility of the Pope as a final guest.
  • Malkoff: “There is a decent chance that they're going to have the Pope on for the last show. If anybody's going to get it, it's going to be him.” (06:32)

• Speculation on Finale:

  • Springsteen and Spielberg headlined the final week, with rumors swirling about Beyonce and the Pope as potential final guests.
  • Malkoff: “CBS is not denying the Pope. Steven's wish list is Beyonce and the Pope. We don't know if it's going to happen.” (07:41)

---

Rise of Greg Gutfeld & Ratings Perspective

• Gutfeld Outpacing Traditional Late-Night:

  • Gutfeld's FOX show pulls more viewers (3-4 million) despite being on fewer channels than network giants.
  • Brian: “Greg GUTFELD who has 35% less possible homes and he's getting a 3, 4. So I mean he's winning in a, in a bad league.” (09:53)

• Digital vs. Traditional Metrics:

  • While some late-night hosts do well on YouTube, digital views don’t bring in TV ad money.
  • Malkoff: “The YouTube views just do not translate to the, to the TV dollar.” (10:12)

• Forecast:

  • With declining audiences and rising costs, late-night may scale down drastically, possibly losing live bands and shrinking writing staffs.
  • Malkoff: “I think we're going to probably have 10 writers less. I think it's no band. Seth Meyers, they got rid of his band for call...” (10:12)

---

Byron Allen’s New Direction

• CBS’s Next Bet: Comics Unleashed:

  • Byron Allen’s show avoids politics and topical jokes to ensure lasting “evergreen” episodes.
  • Byron Allen: “We don't talk about politics. We don't talk about anything that's topical... Just be funny and don't offend. I don't care who you vote for.” (11:21)

• Skepticism About “No Politics” Format:

  • Brian doubts the possibility of truly apolitical comedy being widely successful in today’s climate, suggesting instead, “be an equal opportunity offender.”
  • Brian: “I don't think it's possible to... avoid politics. There's too much material there. Just, just be an equal opportunity offender.” (11:50)

• Mark’s Analysis:

  • Allen's approach is business-savvy, aiming for mass syndication and profitability through endless reruns.
  • Malkoff: “They do evergreen material on purpose with no politics. So they can rerun these shows for 10 years because they're not topical.” (12:06)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Carson’s Philosophy:
  • “America does not care about my politics. And why would I want to alienate half of my audience?”
    —Mark Malkoff (03:31)
• On the Shift to Political Commentary:
  • “It's when Jon Stewart, the Daily Show Letterman pointed to Jon Stewart having some political leanings that Dave felt he could do that.”
    —Mark Malkoff (02:42)
• On Colbert’s Possible Historic Finale:
  • “If we have the Pope show up on a late night show, a complete unheard of thing and they'll go down in history if that happens.”
    —Mark Malkoff (08:38)
• Byron Allen’s Mandate for Comics Unleashed:
  • “We don't talk about politics... Just be funny and don't offend. I don't care who you vote for.”
    —Byron Allen (11:21)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00-01:22: Introduction, late-night ratings history, Mark Malkoff’s credentials
• 01:52-03:25: Legacy of Letterman, Leno, and importance of political neutrality in classic late night
• 03:55-04:56: Carson’s approach to political comedy and universal appeal
• 05:15-06:19: Letterman and Colbert’s on-air exchange ahead of Colbert’s final show
• 06:32-07:41: Colbert’s transformation, speculation about the final episode and importance of his faith
• 09:53-11:06: Analysis of ratings, Gutfeld’s rise, digital vs. traditional viewership
• 11:21-12:53: Byron Allen interview clip and discussion about the future of late-night without politics
• 12:53-End: Personal anecdotes about Letterman and reflections on the future of late-night TV

---

Conclusion

Brian Kilmeade and Mark Malkoff’s conversation offers a wide-ranging and insightful look at how late-night TV has changed—from Carson’s era-defining neutrality and mass appeal, through Letterman’s reluctant politicization, to Colbert’s openly partisan approach. Against a backdrop of declining ratings and economic pressures, new experiments like Byron Allen’s “apolitical” comedy show may become the future—or just another evolutionary step. Through it all, the legacy of Johnny Carson looms large, serving as both a standard and a lament for what late night used to mean in American culture.

Transcript

[Brian]

But one of the great things I have great interest in is late night television. Definitely when I was growing up Carson was the best and when I by the time I got to college Letterman was everything. And now you have a situation where on average they if take Kimmel, if you take Fallon and you take Colbert they get about a 2 where Carson and I know it was a different time. Cablevision cable was just emerging was getting about 7 million and Letterman end up when he was leaving was getting about 3 million and and this week is the last week of the Colbert show and believe it or not he was winning the ratings race but the show is losing millions of dollars. What has happened to late night television? A man that knows joins us now. Mark Malkoff, he's a comedian author of Love Johnny Carson. One Obsessive Fan's journey to Find the Genius behind the legend. And Mark, first off thanks so much for joining us. Congratulations on the book. Now first off for you, you, you have a personal up close experience in late night television. I mean who did you work for?

[Mark Malkoff]

Brian? So I worked for David Letterman on the Late Show. I was working for comedy royalty and then I had a day job where I worked for Stephen Colbert in the Colbert Report when we were on Comedy Central. So you know I was there actually for the very first late show, 34 year old franchise. I was in the second row as a teenager. So I have a history with the Late Show.

[Brian]

So with. So you always a Letterman fan?

[Mark Malkoff]

I was. I mean I love Johnny Carson. I interviewed over 400 people about him. But yeah, after Carson I think Dave probably did the show better than anyone and all the late night host worship Dave and Johnny Carson certainly.

[Brian]

So the thing is Mark, remember like yesterday everybody was talking about who is going to be Carson's successor, is he going to retire? And Bette Midler sings him off and, and then Leno gets named and Letterman gets hurt. His feelings, he spins off could bring us back to that moment.

[Mark Malkoff]

So August 30th, 1993, 23 million people tune into David Letterman's debut. CBS stock went up. It was he got, he owned this show. There had never been a late night show on CBS and Dave really set the standard for this. But there was a lot of drama. Johnny Carson wanted it to be David Letterman, Jay Leno politic to all the NBC affiliates and got the gig. They both did pretty well for themselves. But one thing with both of them like Johnny Carson is that we didn't know their personal politics. That was considered a staple. The shows that really had the Most longevity and the most profitable traditionally have been the ones where we did not know the politics of the host.

[Brian]

See, it's interesting because the first time I thought David Letterman weighed in on politics was when John McCain was running and he did nonstop McCain old jokes. And I thought, okay, this is not stopping, this is continuing.

[Mark Malkoff]

It's when Jon Stewart, the Daily Show Letterman pointed to Jon Stewart having some political leanings that Dave felt he could do that. But certainly when he was on.

[Brian]

Oh, really? He looked at Jon Stewart, who was younger than him, saw him doing that and said, well, I guess I can let it out.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's exactly what happened. And he started putting a little of his politics. You know, he at this point wasn't going to rehearsal anymore. Jay, he pretty much gave up that Jay was going to be number one. And he just, you know, just really let, let it all out. And yeah, so that's what happened with that. And between Jon Stewart and Dave Letterman, both amazing broadcasters, that was really one of the first times in Late night that that really happened with the host put in their personal opinions and politically.

[Brian]

Right. And you know, Carson, you say in the book that he was a Democrat, but you didn't really know it.

[Mark Malkoff]

Yes, we did not know his politics. Now, he absolutely 100% voted for both Democrats and Republicans. He, George Herbert Walker Bush and him were very friendly, actually talked on the phone. Carson was at the White House. It really just depended on the person. But he 100% believed, I am doing an entertainment show. America does not care about my politics. And why would I want to alienate half of my audience?

[Brian]

I remember he gave that interview with Mike Wallace and Mike Wallace, why don't you weigh in? And he said, why would I? Then we've lost. Basically. You lost the narrative. If I do that, I lost what my objective is.

[Mark Malkoff]

He hammered everyone. I mean, Joe Biden during the plagiarism scandal. It was something like 12 jokes that Carson did on him. I mean, Nancy Reagan called up Carson upset with jokes about Ronald Reagan. Jimmy Carter, his mom was upset with Johnny. Gerald Ford was upset with Carson with jokes about Ford being a stumbler. So there is a history of presidents getting a little bit out of shape with, with, with, with the. With jokes. But at the same time, Carson just hammered everyone. And at the end of the day, it was, it was fun and everybody tuned in for Carson. He didn't alienate anybody. Warren, she. It's an energy someone gives off when their appliances and home systems are protected by an American home shield war. Don't worry, be warranty for 20% off plans. Visit hs.com listen see hs.com contracts for coverage details including limit amounts, fees, limitations and exclusions.

[Brian]

So of course, Stephen Colbert would be named to take over for David Letterman. Right. And they just had this exchange. When's this exchange from Eric? When was this from? Just recently. Yeah. So here, you know, Letterman obviously very critical of the president and critical of cbs. This decision to let Stephen Colbert go. Here they are.

[Stephen Colbert]

We are on the roof of the Ed Sullivan Theater building. And I couldn't be happier.

[David Letterman]

It's a beautiful view from up here.

[Mark Malkoff]

Would you share with the people why

[David Letterman]

we are on the roof of the Ed Sullivan right now?

[Stephen Colbert]

I thought maybe tonight's occasion would be a little sad being the end of your run here. But this brings true joy to my heart. We are up here for the wanton destruction of CBS property.

[David Letterman]

Now, I know for many years I enjoyed this as a viewer. You throw things off the Ed Sullivan.

[Mark Malkoff]

That's right.

[Stephen Colbert]

Building.

[David Letterman]

This is a true story. When I first got this gig, one of the first things they told me before we even moved into the offices is that I would not be allowed to throw anything off of the roof of the Ed Sullivan building because evidently there was a problem with a previous tenant.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yes. I'm so excited about this.

[Mark Malkoff]

So am I.

[David Letterman]

Well, Dave.

[Stephen Colbert]

Yes, sir.

[David Letterman]

Hey, thanks so much for creating The Late Show 33 years ago. It's been a pleasure having you back. Some stuff.

[Stephen Colbert]

The pleasure is all mine. I enjoyed destroying stuff. It's great, great fun. Thank you for everything you've done for our country.

[David Letterman]

Feelings mutual, Dave, thank you. Anything you'd like to say to the audience before we go?

[Stephen Colbert]

Well, not necessarily to the audience, but to the folks at cbs, in the words of the great Ed Murrow, good night and good luck, Mother.

[Brian]

Wow. So Mark, talk about that, that the Letterman that we knew in the 80s 90s used to do the afternoon show. Happy to have a chance to do the show following Carson. To that attitude.

[Mark Malkoff]

It's definitely different. I mean, I remember Madonna went on Dave Letterman show and said the F bomb 23 times and it was national news. It was just a lift. A different Dave Letterman, different times. I mean, I think it's great that Dave Letterman did go back. I do want to point out two things. One, for Stephen Colbert's Late show with the legacy, the first year he had on Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, Elon Musk was a very different show. We didn't know his politics. He was last in the ratings and he did the unheard of which Was he picked a political side and it really did turn up his ratings. The one thing I do want to also mention is Colbert's a Catholic, practicing Catholic teacher, Sunday school, knows more scripture than anybody I probably have ever met. There is a decent chance that they're going to have the Pope on for the last show. If anybody's going to get it, it's going to be him. They've met before. They're both from spent lots of time in Chicago. And you know, when Ricky Gervais and Bill Maher talked about religion, Stephen defended it. I mean he would really defend Christianity and religion. I do think that that is something that people don't really talk about and I think that's important for his legacy.

[Brian]

So, Mark, you were projecting Friday. It's got to be, it's got to be tomorrow, right? Don't they usually tape two shows on Thursday?

[Mark Malkoff]

Thursday is going to be the last episode of the Light Show. Tonight we have Springsteen. Last night was Steven Spielberg and Jon Stewart and David Byrne. CBS is not denying the Pope. Steven's wish list is Beyonce and the Pope. We don't know if it's going to happen. Jimmy Kimmel a bunch of years ago, rather Jimmy Fallon almost got the Pope. This was very under wraps. It almost happened. But I think that Colbert, if anybody's going to have the closest chance to get in the Pope and wouldn't that be world news if that happens?

[Brian]

But Mark, you know what it also would be, it's a total F you to Donald Trump because this is his nemesis. And this is a guy saying, I'm not coming to America for your 250th birthday. Even though I'm an American, according to reports, I will come to Stephen Colbert show who many people feel and it's this being canceled for either money loss or because Letterman wants him out. So this would be, that would be just like him taking on Trump again.

[Mark Malkoff]

It really would. I mean it would just be on so many different levels. This would be the media frenzy. If we have the Pope show up on a late night show, a complete unheard of thing and they'll go down in history if that happens. So we'll see. CPS is keeping very tight wraps. But as someone that teaches Sunday school like Stephen does and goes to church and is very open about his religion, I think that he definitely has a good chance of this happening.

[Brian]

So he made a statement, I'll just paraphrase it. Recently he says, you know, I didn't want to be so political, but my producer told me that's what gets ratings. Do you think Stephen Colbert didn't want to be political? He also gave a statement lately saying, hey, you know what? I don't, I'm an actor singer. When I first got this job, I didn't know I could do it. I'm not really a talk show host. I was playing Bill, you know, a Bill O'Reilly like character on the Colbert Report.

[Mark Malkoff]

Nobody thought it was possible to pick a political side and be number one and survive doing a late night show. That's the first year we didn't know his politics and people only knew him doing his character on Comedy Central. So people didn't know who he was. So it took him a about a year to really figure out what he wanted to do with the show. And yeah, I mean we're looking at history right now. 11 years. Can you believe that? Number one in the ratings still being,

[Brian]

you know, when you're studying Carson, you study Letterman, you know, his numbers are at 2.1 or 2. Letterman left and he was low at 3. Right. And then, and then you have Greg GUTFELD who has 35% less possible homes and he's getting a 3, 4. So I mean he's winning in a, in a bad league.

[Mark Malkoff]

The digital numbers, they do very well. The late night hosts like Colbert and some of the others digitally, but the YouTube views just do not translate to the, to the TV dollar. So yeah, I mean it is very, very different with the metrics. I don't know with Johnny Carson. I mean I just really, really miss having a presence like that. And just the 45 million people. When Johnny Carson at the Tiny tim wedding in 1969, second to the moon Land in the Power of Carson. All the late night hosts still talk about Carson. He's been off the air for 30 years. And my book Love Johnny Carson is just evident that we really do miss Carson. And it looks like, Brian, that late night is going away. I think if late night survives, we're going to see, you know, this current cast of The Late Show, 20 writers. I think probably, we're going to probably have 10 writers less. I think it's no ban. Seth Meyers, they got rid of his band for call. So I think we're going to see a very scaled down late night if it still exists.

[Brian]

So Byron Allen bought the time and he's going to be on now. I want you to hear this. This is what he said his show is going to do. I think it's impossible. Listen, a lot of eyes are going to be on your programming to see, well, what are the political leanings? What can they read into it?

[Byron Allen]

What I'm doing with Comics Unleashed, we don't talk about politics. We don't talk about anything that's topical. We don't talk about anything. We don't do anything that's racist or sexist or anti semitic or homophobic. Just be funny and don't offend. I don't care who you vote for. I don't care. I'm here to make people laugh. You're going to vote who you're going to vote for. No matter what I say doesn't matter. It's not my business. Not my business.

[Mark Malkoff]

Do what you do.

[Byron Allen]

So I'm here to make you laugh.

[Brian]

Mark, I don't think it's possible to. I think he got the wrong message. It's not to avoid politics. There's too much material there. Just, just be an equal opportunity offender. I think that's the takeaway from what we're seeing and see how that goes.

[Mark Malkoff]

Byron Allen is a mogul. You know, he started when he was 18 years old making his debut on Johnny Carson. He's a student of late night. But with Comics Unleashed it's basically an assembly line and they do five shows in a day. They do evergreen material on purpose with no politics. So they can rerun these shows for 10 years because they're not topical. So that is why he is going in that direction without doing politics. I see what you, what you're saying, but he wants these, these episodes to run in affinity and we'll see if he can pull it off. I mean, Brian, he doesn't even only have the 1130 slot. He has the 1230 slot. He basically, yes, buying his way in the late night with two hour block on CBS and we'll see if it he projects it's going to be profitable. Certainly CBS is, is for it for at least a year. So it's an experiment. We'll see what happens.

[Brian]

Mark, My senior thesis in college was the history of late night television. And yeah, and I interviewed Letterman for it because I interned at NBC and I was able to get him and I have a quote when he said to me, I said, do you want to substitute for, do you want to be the next host if Johnny Carson retires? He says no, we're a basement operation. Who would ever want to fill his shoes? That's why I was flipping out years later when Carson retires and he says, I can't believe I'm not getting it. So clearly with me. He was being somewhat insincere. But I think getting, having Leno get it really bother him.

[Mark Malkoff]

But that is a hard interview to get. Dave Letterman and you know, he, whenever Johnny Carson was still in the seat, he never wanted to say it out loud that he wanted the gig because he just loved Johnny Carson so much and he meant so much to him that he just never wanted to say the words out loud. And it did end up hurting him at the end. He didn't say at 10 BC I want this in my contract. They get the Tonight show and that's why Jay took over for him. But that's so cool. You got to sit down with Dave. I mean he's out of the late night host. Him and Carson I think did it best.

[Brian]

Yeah, I looked up to him big time. He was great. Mark too, great job. I love the topic of your book. You're a great broadcaster too. Mark Malkoff, a comedian and author of Love Johnny Carson. One Obsessive Fan's Journey to Find the Genius behind the Legend. Mark, thanks so much.

[Mark Malkoff]

Brian, thank you. It was really good talking to you. I appreciate it.

[Brian]

You got it.