2nd MVP Straw Poll - Late Surges Enough For New MVP? + Possible Tanking Solution?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode: 2nd MVP Straw Poll - Late Surges Enough For New MVP? + Possible Tanking Solution?
Date: February 20, 2026
Host(s): Brian Windhorst ("Wendy"), Tim Bontemps, Tim MacMahon
Producer: ESPN, Omaha Productions

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Main Theme

This episode dives into the results and drama of the season’s second NBA MVP Straw Poll, exploring whether late-season surges are shifting the MVP race, and the ongoing controversy surrounding tanking in the NBA—with fresh policy ideas debated among the ESPN insiders.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Pro Basketball Negotiation Competition & NBA Player Discussions

[00:28 – 02:24]

• Brian is in New Orleans for the Pro Basketball Negotiation Competition. Law students simulate contract negotiations for NBA players (e.g., Mark Williams)—a fun window into real-world front office decision-making.
• Conversation shifts playfully toward NBA executives, with Tim, MacMahon, and Wendy ribbing each other about their hypothetical negotiation skills.

Notable Quote:

"I don't get invited to those highfalutin academic conferences. Not sure why Bontemps does either, to be honest with you." — MacMahon [01:46]

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2. Tanking in the NBA – Owner Perspectives and Potential Fixes

[02:24 – 07:22]

• Discussion sparked by Matt Ishbia’s anti-tanking stance (“tanking is losing behavior done by losers”), even as his Suns have traded away future draft control—a contradiction Tim and Brian point out.
• MacMahon and Brian debate if tanking is really the marker of “losers,” noting several dynasties have roots in tanking.

Notable Quote:

"There’s some champions who have tanked to become champions. ... I’m not going to the ‘done by losers’ part." — MacMahon [04:06]

• Tim Bontemps introduces his proposed fix for tanking:
  • After a set date (post-All Star break or trade deadline), only wins (not losses) influence lottery seeding—flipping the incentive to win late-season games, engaging fans and players, and avoiding the current malaise among non-contending teams.

Notable Quote:

"If every game counted for wins towards getting a high pick or making the playoffs, you’d have everybody incentivized to be trying these next couple months." — Bontemps [06:26]

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3. Second MVP Straw Poll Results: The Breakdown

[08:43 – 47:57]

Format:

• 100 likely MVP voters from all 30 NBA markets and international media.

Notable Results & Commentary (with Timestamps):

11th Place: Anthony Edwards (Minnesota Timberwolves)

• "Most underrated star in basketball" per Tim Bontemps, with discussion about his marketability and charisma.
  [11:15 – 13:23]

10th Place: Tyrese Maxey (Philadelphia 76ers)
9th Place: Jalen Brunson (New York Knicks)

• Both have slipped in the poll due to team performance or injuries.
  [17:25 – 18:52]

8th Place: Kawhi Leonard (LA Clippers)

• Dramatic late-surge, “arguably been the best player the last couple months," but team is below .500.
  [19:12 – 20:18]

7th Place: Donovan Mitchell (Cleveland Cavaliers)

• The Cavs lobby for more media attention.
  [20:18 – 21:04]

6th Place: Jalen Brown (Boston Celtics)

• Up from 10th; received more MVP attention than ever due to carrying the injury-hit Celtics.
  [21:24 – 22:36]

"Before this year, he had three total votes ever in the straw poll... now he’s got a real shot." — Wendy [22:15–22:18]

5th Place: Luka Dončić (Los Angeles Lakers)

• "Loaded" field knocks him down from third, games missed and team defense cited.
• "There’s a blame pie. He can have a slice, but there’s plenty to go around there." — MacMahon [29:09]

4th Place: Victor Wembanyama (San Antonio Spurs)

• Massive leap: Up from 8th; hosts see a “real path” to MVP if the Spurs finish atop the West.
• "If Victor continues to play like he is and the Spurs get past the Thunder and have the best record in the Western Conference, that is a formula for Victor Wembanyama to be MVP." — Wendy [33:54]

3rd Place: Cade Cunningham (Detroit Pistons)

• Compares Pistons' season to 2011 Bulls/Derrick Rose MVP run—a "lunch pail" group led by a relentless point guard.
• "Cade has carried this team to victory after victory… when the games got close, they handed the ball to their point guard." — Bontemps [40:04]

2nd Place: Nikola Jokić (Denver Nuggets)

• Missed games a concern, but “if he plays every game the rest of the season...he’ll be back up to 100 ballots.” [42:48]

1st Place: Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (Oklahoma City Thunder)

• Still the overwhelming favorite, with 78 first-place votes.
• "He is statistically having a better season even than he did last year. ... His efficiency, shooting 55% from the field is crazy." — MacMahon [43:11]

Points of Poll Drama:

• Eligibility thresholds (games missed) are shaping the tight competition at the top.
• Change in voting patterns: No Giannis for the first time since 2017.
• American MVP hope: Cade and Victor seen as having real late-season chances if circumstances break their way.

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4. NBA Tanking: Policy Deep Dive

[55:37 – 62:41]

• Further elaboration on the Bontemps anti-tanking proposal: Use wins after a date certain to determine lottery seeding.
• Hosts run through decades of failed or partial anti-tanking reforms, including the lottery, flattening odds, and the play-in tournament.
• The consensus: Real structural change needs to prioritize rewarding wins, not punishing losses.

"All of these things tend to be focused on trying to de-emphasize losing as opposed to emphasizing winning… The only way to actually change the problem is to change the incentives." — Bontemps [53:33]

• Abolishing the draft? Not happening, per the panel; small market owners would never vote for it.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• MacMahon’s referee costume:

  • "Technical foul on Wendy. Bitching too much." — MacMahon [09:17]

• On the MVP race:

  • "It’s gone from a two-horse race to more of an open field." — MacMahon [34:38]
  • "If the Pistons have the best record in the league, that is an awfully strong part of an MVP case. Just like if the Spurs end up atop the West for Victor." — MacMahon [53:16]

• On the frustration of tanking:

  • "That sucks. It sucks that we're sitting here talking about that." — Wendy [55:42]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:24] Tanking debate: Matt Ishbia’s statement & owner contradictions
• [06:26] Bontemps’ “wins for lottery” proposal
• [08:43] Straw poll breakdown begins
• [32:25] Top 4 MVP discussion starts
• [40:04] Cade Cunningham-Bulls comparison
• [53:33] Anti-tanking policies: shift to incentivizing wins
• [55:37] Full tanking reform debate & policy proposal

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Tone & Style

Classic Hoop Collective interplay: informative, nerdy, irreverent, and occasionally combative. Banter punctuates hard basketball analysis and league policy wonkery.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• This straw poll is tighter and more open than in recent years, with Shai Gilgeous-Alexander holding a large but not insurmountable lead.
• Victor Wembanyama and Cade Cunningham have real MVP paths if their teams finish at or near the top of the standings.
• The tanking debate is intensifying—expect pressure for creative reforms that shift teams' incentives toward late-season winning.
• The episode offers insider anecdotes, playful jabs (MacMahon in a ref jersey!), and excellent breakdowns of league trends for devoted NBA fans.

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Transcript

[Wendy]

5:00am I'm up with a crisp Celsius energy drink running 12 miles today. Grab a green juice, quick change and head to work. Meetings, workshops, one more Celsius. No slowing down. Working late, but obviously still meeting the girls for a little dancing. Celsius live fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail].

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA which we're doing on Thursday evening. Joining us from New Orleans, Louisiana. I don't know why he's there, Tim Bontemps.

[Wendy]

Hello everybody.

[Tim Bontemps]

I actually do know why, but I'm going to let you say, yeah, I'm

[Wendy]

down here for the pro basketball negotiation competition that Steven Mervis from the Magic and a bunch of other executives have put on for a long time. I got Bobby Marks down here. Good to see him. Fun couple days. Sat in some negotiations this morning on Mark Williams contracts, which was interesting.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mark Williams is getting his contract negotiated there.

[Wendy]

Well, it's the, the way it works is they, they, there's law students from all over the country and they all come here and compete. And they, they are, the team and the agent are different teams depending on what the negotiation's about. And the prop this morning was to come up to an agreement on Mark Williams contract this summer. This is interesting to see how they went about it.

[Tim Bontemps]

What was the agreement that they were reached? We can compare it to the real thing later.

[Wendy]

One, the first group couldn't come to a deal and the second one came to a deal, I want to say it was four years for 92 million. I think with a team option.

[Tim Bontemps]

Joining us from Dallas, Texas is Ben McMahon.

[Ben McMahon]

Howdy partners. I don't get invited to those highfalutin academic conferences. Not sure why Bon Temps does either, to be honest with you. Probably Bobby needed somebody to carry his briefcase around.

[Tim Bontemps]

How well do you think Von Temps would do in a negotiation?

[Ben McMahon]

Not well, because there'd be no conversation. He'd just interrupt all the time. So there's no way a deal could get agreed to.

[Wendy]

Do you want to talk about celebrities here? There is one celebrity here and it is our guy, Bobby Marks. He is the number one guy in the building. Everybody wants to see him. He has as he should be, no question. And hello everybody. I didn't get that in before.

[Tim Bontemps]

Speaking of, I don't remember why I was thinking about Matt Ishbia. You said something that made me think of Matt Ishpia.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, he had the anti rating.

[Wendy]

Mark Williams is on the Sun So that's probably why.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's why I was thinking about Mark Williams. You're right. I was thinking Matt Ishpia should get the notes from those negotiations. Look, I respect when owners come out and go do things on the record. I love it. I want it to keep continuing. I love it. You know, Mark Cuban the other day, you know, is now just a, you know, a part owner basically came out and said that taking is a good thing.

[Wendy]

Celebrate taking was was his move. I was like, okay, he's the guy

[Ben McMahon]

who paid more fines for tanking than any owner in NBA history. Of course he's pro Tank.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'll say this. I'm not going to read all of Ishbia's tweet because it's long, but I will read a couple of key sentences and I will just say he said tanking is losing behavior done by losers. This is much worse than any prop bet scandal. This is throwing games strategically horrible for fans that pay to watch and cheer for their teams. Awful behavior that Adam Silver and the NBA will need to stop with massive changes. And I have complete confidence that with his confidence and leadership, he will fix it. I respect all of those comments. I appreciate he said it on the record. Having said that, he's traded control of his draft for the foreseeable future. Right. So this one say those two things.

[Wendy]

Both things to be true.

[Ben McMahon]

He came in and basically said we will never tank. And if you don't believe me, watch this all the pigs. Okay?

[Tim Bontemps]

And I believe him. I want to tell you, I believe Mattish people actions over words.

[Ben McMahon]

His actions are we will never tank. And I agree with the vast majority of his statement except for the done by losers part. There's some champions who have tanked to become champions. There's dynasties that have tanked to set the foundation for a dynasty. So, you know, I'm not going to the done by it is losing behavior. I mean, technically it absolutely is losing behavior. The done by losers parts that my only quibble with that whole thing.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that's my whole thing. The reason I really don't want to talk about tanking in the individual tanking things. When I made my plea last week, I didn't want to talk about individual tanking moments is because I don't think it's done by losers. I think it's done by good people and I didn't want to target what I think are good people. And so I just, I'm giving them all a pass. I'm not doing what Mattish Pia did.

[Ben McMahon]

Also Some of the people you know, some of the franchises that aren't happy about it now have benefited from it before. So it's again, it is on Adam Silver and the competition committee to get this thing figured out to make the incentive structure different.

[Tim Bontemps]

I have some breaking news. We don't need shams for humans will act in their own interest. They will be. They will be. They will not be objective and act in their own interest.

[Wendy]

That's why I wrote a column for Dot com on Thursday about my proposed fix to fix the problem, which is going to be proposed by an executive in the league, which gets to the heart of that, which is to give teams incentive to win. And that proposal is to have wins, not losses, count towards your lottery seating at some point in the schedule. Could do it starting today after the All Star break. You could do it starting after the trade deadline. At whatever point around this time in the schedule, you go from having teams trying to lose to teams trying to win. And if we were sitting here today on Thursday afternoon going into this Wizards Pacers game on Thursday night with Evita Zubots making his debut for the Pacers and Pascal Siakam playing and Trey Young playing and Anthony Davis on the way back and Jaren Jackson Jr. Playing in his return to Memphis for the Jazz today, and all those games had meaning that would be super exciting for people who like watching basketball like us. And it would be give us a lot of stuff to talk about instead of what we have now, which is a third of the league not interested in playing for the next two months. And as I thought, somebody put well in the when I was talking to him about this idea, we currently have this situation where for a big chunk of the league there's just this slow drift away from the sport for the next two months where there's really not a reason to be engaged or pay attention. Whereas if every game counted for wins towards getting a high pick right now or making the playoffs, you'd have everybody incentivized to be trying these next couple months, no matter where their team was at. And that would lead to the best possible product. By the way, at a time of the schedule when after the super bowl, everybody starts paying attention instead of it just being about all these teams not caring and not trying and the guys not playing and getting shut down with injuries and all this other stuff that we are going through right now.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, at a certain point, it's about the product, and the product is severely damaged by this. And as much as Cuban wants tanking to be celebrated and you know, whatever. He was still charging full prices for tickets when the Mavericks were tanking, and it is not a full price product.

[Tim Bontemps]

He said their fans loved it.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, they, they loved getting Luca as a result of it, but they sure as hell didn't love the season before that or even the season before.

[Tim Bontemps]

They had to trade up for Luka. They didn't get. They didn't have lottery luck. They traded up. All right, this is one of our favorite days on the podcast, by the way. One quick thing. I don't want to talk more about tanking, but I was talking to a league executive today and he said to me, this is after, you know, Darren Peterson had 23 points in 18 minutes and after we've seen some other top guys have big time games over the last like four or five days.

[Ben McMahon]

Darius Acuff with 49 last night.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is that what he had? Um, he's what? He's projected. What, top five? He's not even like top 30.

[Ben McMahon]

No, he's like. I've seen him like ninth.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay. Anyway, I had executive tell me the number one pick this year is worth $100 million, that if you gave the opportunity to buy that pick, they would. Teams would pay $100 million for it. And so keep that in mind when The Jazz refined 500,000. Okay, it's a big day because it's. It's time for the second edition of the Bontemps poll. Oh, hold on. We love the Bon.

[Ben McMahon]

Hold on. These get feisty. I've come prepared. Hold on just a second.

[Wendy]

Oh, God. This would be good.

[Ben McMahon]

You guys tend to go at each other, so I've got my referee jersey on and I'm ready to roll. Let's go.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, first off. Yeah. So ridiculous. For Those not watching McMahon just unveil. I thought you were zipped up a little higher than normal. I sensed a wardrobe situation. McMahon's wearing a referee jersey. Let me just say that's fine. You want to be the referee, fine. But you two have ganged up on me a number of times. So if you're the referee, where's my whistle?

[Ben McMahon]

Technical foul on Wendy. Bitching too much.

[Tim Bontemps]

Let me. Scott Foster gave me a little tea. I got to get a little tea. Little tea. Our referee friends.

[Wendy]

Listen to this pot are going to be very insulted to get you're on here wearing a referee jersey after all your slander of them.

[Ben McMahon]

It's an amateur one.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's.

[Ben McMahon]

It's not the NBA gray. It's. It's the old stripes.

[Wendy]

Say you're an amateur In a few other ways, too.

[Ben McMahon]

If we. I need to get. I need to get the hocus because all those little short munchkin refs were those thick hocus.

[Wendy]

What are you doing? Why are you taking shots at the rest of the world? I'm a reporter.

[Ben McMahon]

I report facts.

[Wendy]

Okay.

[Ben McMahon]

Are you.

[Wendy]

Would you wear.

[Tim Bontemps]

Would you. Would you wear the lanyard or no lanyard? Because, you know, when we had the refs on last year, James Capers and Tyler Ford, like, got into borderline, you know, Verbal.

[Ben McMahon]

Listen here. I'm gonna tell you something. I'll be real honest. I've not been doing real well as far as getting on that elliptical. I need a lanyard because I'm gonna run out of breath if I run up and down.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I will just say that, you know the penalty for losing your whistle, which is that you buy the drinks. And.

[Ben McMahon]

And I've seen some of those rest. Drink. That's.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know you don't like to buy, though. You're looking for a free drink.

[Wendy]

He definitely doesn't like to buy drinks. We know all about that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Ben McMahon]

I'll get you on sch.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, it's the thing about McMahon. He went to school, went to college for many years, was never on scholarship, but now that he's out of college,

[Wendy]

he's got to catch up. He's got to catch up on the scholarship.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, Bontemps, I turn the floor over to you.

[Wendy]

Yes, here we are, second straw poll of the year. We will start at the bottom like you usually do, and work our way up.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay. I want to just point out, even though I turn the floor over to you, 100 likely MVP voters from all 30 markets. This is a.

[Wendy]

And internationals.

[Tim Bontemps]

And internationals. This very much mimics the actual poll itself, which is why it has proven to be so predictive. Okay, go ahead.

[Wendy]

All right, so we'll just start right off in 11th place by himself, eight points, four total votes, a third place, and three fifth place votes. I think one thing I'll say off the top and a sign of how I think open this is for a couple of reasons. Every single person who got a vote, all 11 of them got at least one third place vote. So I think, you know, really, wow,

[Ben McMahon]

that shocks me because I think there's four clear cuts and then we can. I think the debate goes for that fifth spot.

[Wendy]

Well, that's not how I would say the voting unfolded. And it is interesting and I think indicative a little bit of how the games played this year has wreaked some havoc, I think with the voting. So now I'll say who it is. So with one third place vote, three fifth place votes, four total votes and eight total points, in 11th place is the most. How did Brian describe him? The most underrated American person in sports or something this week? Anthony Edwards, Minnesota Timberwolves guard. I can't remember actually what you said. What, what was the, what were you.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think he's the most underrated star in basketball.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay. I don't know if he's ever.

[Tim Bontemps]

Denny Avida. I mean, what are we.

[Wendy]

Well, no, I just couldn't remember what the clip was from get up earlier this week with Matt Bear.

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, he's not exactly an anonymous guy.

[Wendy]

He's got. Why is he underrated?

[Tim Bontemps]

I just think that, you know, first off, like, his jersey sales were like, seventh.

[Wendy]

Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, we have some internal metrics at ESPN that I'm not going to get into that indicate he's not, you know, people don't follow him as much as they do other players. And I think he should be the centerpiece of like, I think he should be like top three or four in terms of building primetime games around him because, you know, I would say there's a couple of players in the league, it's a very small amount that almost guarantee that they will do something in every game like you want. You go watch this guy play and he will do something in that game that you will remember. Like, that was LeBron for decades. That is Victor Wembanyama. That is, in my view, Ant Edwards. Cooper. Flag's on the watch list for that, by the way. He's not quite there yet.

[Ben McMahon]

Ant's no doubt one of the most entertaining players. I, I, you know, as far as, like the, the, the click stuff and the TV viewership, I don't think market size matters as much as it used to in a social media world, but it, it does still matter.

[Wendy]

I think it's pretty popular. I think it's properly rated. But we'll see.

[Ben McMahon]

We've got it. We've got an Ant jersey in this house. It's a, you know, I'm a middle schooler. But we've got an answer. We've also got some answers.

[Wendy]

And he's got some unbelievable commercials, the Adidas commercials. They've done an incredible job, in my opinion, with those. They're awesome.

[Tim Bontemps]

You should have seen they built a whole ant village in LA for all.

[Ben McMahon]

Did you go in there?

[Tim Bontemps]

No, I watched him build it. They built it, oddly, at the wrong arena. They built it at Crypto Arena. I thought that was kind of strange,

[Ben McMahon]

but there was a, I don't know, downtown LA versus middle of nowhere Inglewood.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know, but were people like downtown

[Ben McMahon]

LA outside like Foot Locker? Had whole like complex thing going on? Outside of Crypto?

[Tim Bontemps]

Was. Was the.

[Ben McMahon]

That's where I got this. Just kidding.

[Tim Bontemps]

Was the jam session at the convention center? Is that why? Maybe it was there. I don't know.

[Ben McMahon]

I couldn't tell you.

[Wendy]

I got out of there before All

[Ben McMahon]

Star Weekend really started.

[Tim Bontemps]

Me too.

[Wendy]

Can't see either. So anthe Edwards was 11th for context in the first poll.

[Ben McMahon]

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[Wendy]

Next up, 10th place, one third place vote, one fourth place vote, two fifth place votes. So four total votes and 10 total points down from seventh in the first poll is Philadelphia 76ers star Tyrese Maxey. All right, not really too surprising with the way their team has fallen off a little bit, but he's still had a great year. Obviously started as an all star starter

[Ben McMahon]

this year, a bit surprised he's ahead of Ant, but Ant's apparently drastically underrated.

[Wendy]

It's. They're, yeah, I mean that's also four votes each. I mean they're, they're basically tied. All right, this was, this was one of the more interesting ones in here. In 9th place, 1 3rd place vote, 3 4th place and 3 5th place votes for 7 total votes and 17 total points down from 5th in the first poll is new York Knicks star Jalen Brunson.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, I think I put Jalen fifth in my last ballot and he was not on my ballot here. So I'm, I can treat him.

[Ben McMahon]

I might have done the same. I did not have him. I think he was fifth in my last one. I didn't have him on this one either.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't like think he like is playing poorly or anything, but no, I

[Ben McMahon]

think he's a second team all NBA guy, which doesn't get you on the MVP ballot fair.

[Wendy]

It gets you ninth in the voting. It also should be noted this was the first ballot ever or the first draw poll ever since 2017 when I did the first one that Giannis wasn't on because Giannis isn't eligible anymore, by the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's a hell of a run, you know.

[Wendy]

Yeah, I mean I've done like 17 of them I think. And over, over the years in that whole span, he's the only guy that had been at least one vote on every one.

[Ben McMahon]

There's a reason why his wishy washy not a trade demand, not a trade request. But maybe I'd like to leave saga get so much attention That's.

[Wendy]

That. That's like you're 100% right on that front. Okay, so this was a pretty fascinating one, I thought. In eighth place, not on the first ballot, three first, three third place votes, one fourth place vote, two fifth place votes, six total votes, and 20 total points. You guys want to guess? Didn't get a. Didn't get a vote the last time.

[Ben McMahon]

Didn't get a vote. Didn't get a vote the last time. That's an interesting one.

[Wendy]

I think it should be a pretty good hint recently.

[Ben McMahon]

He's played recently. I give up.

[Wendy]

Got a guess.

[Tim Bontemps]

Brian Musa Diabate.

[Wendy]

The Moose. The way for you to get bus city killers in here. There are no buzzing killers on the list. It's a shame. No, it's the guy who scored, I think 31 points in a row or what it felt like in the Ohio game on Sunday.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right.

[Ben McMahon]

Boy, I was looking. I. I made the mistake of only looking at the top six in the standings. I mean, look at Clippers are. They're. They're in 10th place.

[Wendy]

I mean, listen, as Vinnie, I think he's awesome. As being correctly said on the pod the other day, he's arguably been the best player in the league in the last couple months. So he's been unbelievable.

[Tim Bontemps]

So I. Yeah, and I sort of rocked back and then I was like, do I have a strong, you know, contest for that? Not strong.

[Ben McMahon]

He's playing as well as he ever has. But like, sorry, to be on an MVP ballot, your team needs to be above.500.

[Wendy]

Well, listen, I. That's why I thought it was. I thought it was interesting. And it's just the further curse of Kawhi with the Clippers that as Brian said the other day, the way he's playing now, that the team has now got no chance to do anything at all. Right. In seventh place, 27 total points, one third place vote, three fourth place votes, six fifth place votes. So 11 total votes, and up from 10th in the last one is our favorite Cavs corner straw poll guy, Donovan Mitchell.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I will tell you that the. The Cavs have been not like irritated, but like calling for Donovan to get more attention because they believe he's been as good this year as he was last year when he was first team all NBA, which is fine.

[Ben McMahon]

And they've been winning lately, and that's going to help. When they were down in play in territory, Donovan wasn't going to get that kind of consideration. They're 4th and east now with just a game and a half out of second so if they keep winning, his case keeps improving. His. I mean, his stats are as good as they've ever been, that's for sure.

[Wendy]

And as we've talked about, they got a chance to really zoom up. The Saints. I misspoke on that. He had 1 second, 1 third, 3

[Ben McMahon]

fourth and 1 second is aggressive. Windy, what are you thinking?

[Wendy]

It was not window. It was not window. Okay. In sixth with five third place votes, 12 fourth place votes, 26 fifth place votes for 43 total votes and 87 total points, up from ninth in the last one, is Boston Celtics forward Jalen Brown. And to show you where Jalen is compared to where he's been in the past, I believe before this year, he had three total votes ever in the straw poll. In the last one, he had 11. And in this one, he's got 43.

[Ben McMahon]

Before this year, he wasn't the best candidate on his team.

[Wendy]

And no, I. I agree. I'm not. I'm not saying he should have gotten a lot of votes. It's just. It's a credit to the way he has played and carried this team that he's got a real shot, particularly if there is some injury issues to be a top five MVP vote getter, which is not something I ever thought I would say.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, well, you know, our. Our guy Perk has been pounding the table saying he's. He's his number one, and he has been saying that for a month. Wasn't like he said it after he had one good game a few weeks ago.

[Wendy]

I think number one is aggressive, but certainly. Who's the table pattern argument for?

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, Perk. Perk doesn't delve too deeply into the advanced Stats.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, don't you.

[Ben McMahon]

He doesn't. I'm just saying, like, the case against is the. Like the advanced. He's not an advanced Stats darling.

[Wendy]

It has never been an advanced Stats darling, to put it mildly.

[Tim Bontemps]

Can I. Can I pull the curtain back a little bit on the Countdown show? You know our guy, Stats Williams.

[Ben McMahon]

We do know our guy Matt.

[Tim Bontemps]

Matt Stats Williams, who, by the way, we know. We all call him Stats, but Michael Malone has given him a new nickname.

[Wendy]

Oh, really? I haven't heard this.

[Tim Bontemps]

And it's. It's a. It's namaste. It's a cool nickname. It's a bit of an ironic nickname if you know him, but it's such a cool nickname that I might. I might have to go that direction.

[Ben McMahon]

Stats is like his first name anyway, so you can have a nickname.

[Tim Bontemps]

He calls him Matty Ice Matty Ice.

[Wendy]

Oh, like that.

[Tim Bontemps]

The reason he calls him Matty Ice. So here's the thing. Like, he is like at the ready at any time for us on Countdown. So not only does he like prep us, but like, if there's like serious, like a 30 second lull, like, he

[Wendy]

will immediately get you an answer.

[Tim Bontemps]

Malone will be like, matty Ice. And he comes in. What's up, Coach? Who was third place in right handed drives in 2024? It was Jaylen Brown, coach. All right. And you know, and he's, you know. So we have great research folks at espn, but Matty Ice is. We've got Michael Schwartz, who we call Schwartz center.

[Wendy]

That's right.

[Tim Bontemps]

And Jason Josephine, fortunately for him, a

[Wendy]

big Suns fan though, he is having a renaissance this year with the Suns.

[Ben McMahon]

Those are the guys that are topping the, you know, the, the Stats nerds straw poll.

[Wendy]

That's right.

[Tim Bontemps]

We've got Jason Joseph, who goes by J. Joe, and he recently suffered an ACL tear.

[Wendy]

Oh, no, I didn't know that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, he's recovered, but like, you can go to him on like, knee injury stuff. He's like, you know, he can give you stats and knee injury stuff.

[Ben McMahon]

So one stop shopping.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right. All right, sorry, go ahead.

[Wendy]

Was that to say something else? Oh, you were just pulling back the curtain was just to give Stats his nickname on the show.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Wendy]

Okay, I know. I didn't know if there was something else.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't remember what I was doing. Don't call me the other day.

[Wendy]

Sounds about right, folks.

[Tim Bontemps]

I listened back to the so real talk here. I listened back to the pod I did the other day, and I took NyQuil. Like actual, like hardcore NyQuil, not like DayQuil, like the blue, you know, whatever. The aqua pill or whatever. I hadn't had that in like a decade. And even though it was like many hours before I did the podcast, I was still feeling it in my head. I was not 100%. So anything that I said on that podcast, because I said it when I listened back, I said a few things that I was like, I didn't say that. And like, I think you guys actually were kind of generous.

[Ben McMahon]

Hold on a second. Are we supposed to have like a confessional every time that we do a podcast that we might be slightly impaired?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'm just saying I don't do this. I'm just saying I would have to

[Wendy]

do it every pod.

[Ben McMahon]

Hold on.

[Wendy]

Here's a disclaimer.

[Ben McMahon]

I didn't sign up for that.

[Tim Bontemps]

There was just times where I was like my head was just floating a little bit. Like it hit me hard. So, you know, it sort of indicates my level of drug usage is when nyquil mocks me for a loop, but. All right, sorry, go ahead.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, that's the first and maybe last Wendy drug update.

[Wendy]

I feel pretty confident about that. All right, in fifth place, two second place votes. What do we got? Oh, there you go.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just. I paused.

[Wendy]

Oh, halls. Okay.

[Ben McMahon]

I don't have any good stuff with me.

[Wendy]

As usual. We're in a highly professional outfit here on the collective. In fifth place, final person did not get a first place vote. Two second place votes, 17 third place votes, 23 or no, sorry, yeah. Two second place votes, 17 3rd place votes, 19 4th place votes. And 21 5th place votes, 59 total votes. 5th place. Can I guess 177 total votes or total points? Yes. I was going to ask both of you to guess.

[Ben McMahon]

Victor Wembanyamaricade Cunningham.

[Wendy]

You're both wrong. What? Lucas? Los Angeles Lakers. Gar.

[Tim Bontemps]

Uh. Oh.

[Wendy]

Luka Doncic.

[Ben McMahon]

Wow. Oh, okay. There's going to be some grumbling coming from the west coast there.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, boy.

[Wendy]

Again, I think part of the thing here, I would guess, is we're getting into the games played situation and you have a lot of these guys at the top who have already missed a lot of games. Luke has already missed, I think, 12 or 13 games.

[Tim Bontemps]

Producer Devon, resident Laker fan here, is pissed. Oh, he's pissed.

[Wendy]

A big part of, you know, and this gets back to why Tim has the referee jersey on. I mean, a part of the debate on this, on this award at times in the past has been how many games have people played. And I think especially with, you know, people bumping up against the eligibility numbers, you know, it's obviously going to have an impact if guys aren't eligible. And it's also, I think, factoring into people's minds that guys are close to not being eligible. So I would also say the top of this list is pretty loaded. So I don't think it's a huge insult to be fifth either.

[Ben McMahon]

It's loaded and he has the worst record among the guys that are going to be or the Lakers have the worst record among the guys who, you know, are. Are left here.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I had him a little bit higher. The reason the Lakers have the record that they do is largely because Luca has been so great.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, they're 27 and 15. When he plays, he is leading the league in scoring, you know, an average in eight rebounds, almost nine assists. Also, Honestly, Luka gets a lot of the blame for the Lakers defensive issues.

[Wendy]

There's a lot of blame to go around on that.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, I would say he's part of the problem, but there's, there's a blame pied. He, he can have a slice of it, but there's plenty to go around there.

[Tim Bontemps]

Luka likes pie.

[Wendy]

Luca was third in the last one. He is. He is fifth in this one. So we now know the top four. I think it's safe to say you guys guessed two of them. So we will see what order they're in.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm going to say those guys are going to be the next two.

[Wendy]

Well, we'll see.

[Ben McMahon]

Wendy, where did you have Luke on your ballot? Fourth folk. Adam third.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sorry, sorry.

[Ben McMahon]

Bot we just discussed Luca so we can say where we had him.

[Tim Bontemps]

Another homer vote from you on Luca.

[Ben McMahon]

Technical on bond him. I'm in charge.

[Wendy]

Wow, we got a whistle.

[Ben McMahon]

Look at that.

[Wendy]

Yeah, I'm in charge. Oh, yeah, you're in charge.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay, more HOOPP Collective podcast after this.

[Wendy]

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[Wendy]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Wendy]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Wendy]

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[Wendy]

All right, so in fourth place with three first place votes, three second place votes, 19 third place votes, 23 fourth place votes, and 27 fifth place votes. So 75 total ballots and 242 total points. Who do we think it is?

[Tim Bontemps]

I'll go with Victor.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm going to guess Cade.

[Wendy]

Okay, so you guess Cade and Brian guess Victor. Brian is correct. Victor is up from eighth in the last poll when he had eight votes, all the way up to 75. And I will say right now, I think the most, I, I'm tempted to say the most likely person to win mvp, that's not Shay, is Victor. Because this reminds me a lot. This reminds me a lot.

[Tim Bontemps]

Listen, he, he calls this stuff. I'm just gonna say, like, as much as I'd like to make fun of

[Wendy]

a lot of the year, when Embiid won and at the start of the year, Embiid had an injury early in the year and missed some time and wasn't. I don't think he had a single vote or he had maybe one vote in the first poll. And he was very grumbly about it at the time. And I just said, hey, if you keep playing games and you're healthy, it's probably going to work out okay. And in the second one, he got up the third behind Giannis and Jokic. And then obviously, famously in the last one, he ended up two points ahead of Jokic. And he goes on and wins a narrow vote to win the award. And you know our guy, the machine, Kevin Pelton called me after listening to the pod on Wednesday and wrapped my knuckles because I hadn't really looked at the standings.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's painful.

[Wendy]

Well, the machine was immediately like, have you looked at the standings lately? I said, yes, I looked at it after the pod because I sort of just said that the spurs are going to have to get through Denver and Oklahoma City at the first two rounds. The spurs are only a couple games back of the Thunder.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, three games back with obviously the

[Wendy]

tiebreaker and obviously the tiebreaker. And if Victor continues to play like he is and the spurs get past the Thunder and have the best record in the Western Conference, that is a formula for Victor Wembanyama to be the mvp. And it is certainly within the bounds of possibility based off where things sit right now.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, Jackson says that the draft king's odds right now for Victor are 35 to 1.

[Wendy]

That's a pretty good bet.

[Tim Bontemps]

I wouldn't say it's a good bet, but there's value.

[Ben McMahon]

There's value.

[Wendy]

Well, there's not a lot of value in MVP voting in general, in my opinion, because usually people pick all these long shot people that have no chance to win. What I would say is at, there should not be anybody at 35 to one who has a real chance to win. And I think Victor does.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah. And it's, it's gone from, it's gone from a two horse race to more of an open field. Like I feel like any of these top five guys at least have a legitimate chance because look, I don't think Luca can win if he leads the league in scoring. And the Lakers.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, here's a problem. What if Shay. What if Shay. I mean, you're talking, I mean a factor here is what if Shay misses? I know he's missed only like maybe nine games so far.

[Wendy]

I think he's missed four.

[Ben McMahon]

No, no, he's missed more than that.

[Wendy]

I think he. I looked it up to you for my story. I think he's missed four. No, I'll double check.

[Tim Bontemps]

No chance. He's. He had missed three before the season.

[Wendy]

He's played 49 games and the Thunder have played 50. They've played 50. Oh, yeah. They've played 56. So he's missed seven.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, so he's missed seven.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, look. All right, well that's, that's.

[Ben McMahon]

And you've got, you've got Joker right on the, you know, close to the edge. Wimby's right close to the edge. I'm just saying, Cade, if the Pistons continue to be the number one seed in the Eastern Conference.

[Wendy]

Well, you just said that. Let's just get, let's just get to Cade because Cade is next. So.

[Ben McMahon]

But the same thing with Wimby. If you just said before the season, hey, the spurs are the number two seed in the West. Your first dollar. Then Damn. Wemby might be the mvp.

[Wendy]

Yeah, we talked about that. We talked about that before the season is the spurs are in the top six. It'd be Victor's going to be first team all NBA and certainly that that's headed that way if he stays healthy. So Kate Cunningham is third, as you correctly predicted. McMahon. They're the next two guys. One first place vote, nine second place votes 38 third place votes 37 fourth place votes, eight fifth place votes, 93 total ballots and 382 total points up from third or up from fourth, I should say in the last one. And the reason I don't think Luca can win is, I mean part of it's. I just don't think the Lakers are realistically going to get going to be able to stay up with these teams in the top four. I guess if they do, that's one thing. And I think if there is injuries at the top, Kate is the one I think that's in position to win the award. As a guy who's led the Pistons from wire to wire in the east to a potentially the best record in the league. You know, I certainly think he's got a stronger case and he's pretty, he's not really very close to the injury stuff. I think it's hard to see him falling below barring a freak injury.

[Tim Bontemps]

McMahon, where did you have Cade on your ballot?

[Ben McMahon]

It sounds like you had a Cade fifth. And you know I'm not gonna like, I don't have a problem with people having them third. You know, I feel like there was

[Wendy]

kind of double the most third place votes of any other person. So it was pretty clear third choice

[Ben McMahon]

I had, I had Wimby third. No, I'm sorry, I had Luke of third, Wimby fourth, Cade fifth. And look, obviously the record is the biggest thing in Cade's favorite over Luka. Luca's stats are significantly better. You know they, he's got, he's got better stat. Cade's averaging one more assist per game. You know, Wimby's significantly better rebounder, scores significantly more points, et cetera, et cetera. So that was my logic there. But again, you know, I don't have any issue with people having Cade this high in their ballot. He's unquestionably a first team all NBA player.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, do you have any issue with having Cade second? Because that's where I had him.

[Ben McMahon]

I still think there's, there's two lead horses, but I'm not going to rip you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, here's the thing. You Guys know how I feel about the way Jokic was. Jokic was playing this year. It was one of the most. I voted for Jokic for first in the last ballot, and I very well could end up putting Jokic first on the. On the final ballot and the real ballot. If I get a vote. We don't know yet, but if I get a vote, because I think he's fabulous, however, with the missed games and since he's come back, he's. He's just slipped a little bit. He's had some good stat games, but by his standards, he hasn't quite been at the level. And guys, when you watch the Pistons play, they have a formula for how they win. And Cade is driving that bus. And especially in a close game, they go to him and he just carries them home time after time after time. I wouldn't say the team 100% reminds me of them, but in terms of the makeup of the team. But the season that the Pistons are having right now is reminiscent of, to me, of the season that the Bulls had in 2011 when LeBron went to Miami and there was sort of a shakeup of the power in the Eastern Conference. And Dwayne Wade or Derrick Rose won the MVP that year. And on the back of the Bulls won like 61 games that season. And they weren't overpowering. They were obviously great defensively. Tibbs first year, I believe, but basically they defended like crazy. They rebounded like crazy, and when the games got close, they handed the ball to their point guard. He carried them home game after game after game. And the Pistons, probably I don't have it looked up, but I'll bet the Pistons have a much better net rating than the Bulls did that year when they were the number one seed in the East. But Cade has carried this team to victory after victory after victory. They just go to him and he just gets it done. And so, you know, at this moment in time, and you know, I'm going to be honest with you, I think overall at espn, and I'm as guilty of this as anybody, we haven't done a good enough job in highlighting the Pistons. We're going to be doing a little bit more coming up. They're on national TV next week. We're doing an all access game with them. They play the Cavs next Friday. But I also just kind of want to give him a nod and that sort of the whole team a nod. And so I thought about it for a while, but I decided to go with him. Second, obviously there were nine people that did that. And one, would you say one first place vote?

[Wendy]

One first place vote. Yep. And I, I really, I like the comp to that Bulls team, I think is a really apt one. They had a 7.8 net rating. Obviously the offensive defense were both way lower because of the time the, the, the era, the, the game was, but they had a 7.8 net rating in Detroit, has a 8.3 net rating. You know, so it's pretty similar and they're very similar styles and there are teams that were led in a similar way where it was Derrick Rose and a bunch of lunch pail guys doing the work around them. And that's certainly what this Pistons team is now. Obviously that team lost in the conference finals. If the Pistons lose in the conference finals, that's going to be an incredible season for them. We'll see if they can go farther, we'll see if they can get there. But certainly now that we've gotten through the all star break in Detroit sitting there, they've got a bunch of big games coming up, including that Cavs game. You know, they're going to continue to get tested and like I said, if they, they stay wire to wire atop the east, especially with these injuries, Cade's going to have a shot.

[Tim Bontemps]

Now Cade, by the way, is 14 to 1, right?

[Wendy]

And Victor being 35 to 1 is, is crazy. I know he's missed a bunch of games, but he, he should definitely be in that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that's the other thing. He sprains his ankle, he's going to, that's fine.

[Wendy]

If he doesn't sprain his A Cole, he could win the award. So I, I, I think 35 to 1 is a pretty crazy line for him. In second place, 98 of 100 ballots, right? 18 first place votes 65. Second place votes 12 third, a fourth and 2 fifth and 700 total points is Nicole Jokic from the Nuggets. And so in first place with 78 first place votes, 20 second place votes, two third place votes. The only person on 100 ballots, 930 total points. Four straight ballots. Leading the poll, which hasn't happened before, is Shil Alexander from the fund.

[Ben McMahon]

Wait, how many ballots is joker not on?

[Wendy]

2.

[Ben McMahon]

He's averaging 29, 12 and 11.

[Wendy]

Well, again, I think, I know I kind of felt embarrassed putting games well, I think it goes back to having missed 16 games. I'm not, I'm not, I would have had him on my ballot, to be clear, but I, I think, you know, like he's on the verge of not Being eligible tease on those two voters for sure.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm sorry.

[Wendy]

If he plays every game the rest of the season and reigns eligible, I, my suspicion is he'll be back up to 100 ballots.

[Ben McMahon]

You know, interestingly on Shea, Mike Shays obviously having an MVP caliber season, he is statistically a better, having a better season even than he did last year. I mean his efficiency and shooting 55%

[Wendy]

from the field is crazy. As a guard who takes a lot of choppers.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah. As a 30, what, 32 point per game scoring guard. That the efficiency is absolutely insane. And the three point efficiency is way up. He's shooting 39% from three this year, you know, which is, which is up from last year. There's no questions out in the MVP caliber season. The first straw poll, one of the big things to me, and I voted Shea first in this one too. But one of the big things that separated Shea in the first straw poll and made it a much easier decision to me was the fact that at the time the Thunder were on pace to set an NBA record for wins. You know, they're, they're not going to have more wins than they did last year. Now they've lost 14 games now, you know, at the time, well, they might have only had one loss the time we did the first trouble. It was something ridiculous like that. So he's not going to have the 70 plus win tiebreaker or you know, weight to his case. The rest of his case is still pretty strong on its own though.

[Tim Bontemps]

Do you have the data? I, I should have asked you about the Spontems where he was in the second poll last year.

[Wendy]

Yep. We pull it up right now.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, Bontage is at the ready.

[Wendy]

He last year in the second straw poll. I mean he was winning. If I can get this to load.

[Tim Bontemps]

So you said 77 first place votes, right?

[Wendy]

It's 70. 78. He had 78 and Jokic had 18 last year in the second one he had 70 and Jokic had 30.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, he's, and I remember he was stronger. I remember last year you felt that it was a, a genuine toss up at the second straw poll even. Or maybe you didn't think a genuine toss up you felt either of them could win it at this, at this point last year.

[Wendy]

Yeah, I thought Shea was going to win, but I, I, I thought, you know, I, I was emphasizing that 70 to 30 in first place votes sounds like a landslide and it's really not.

[Tim Bontemps]

I remember you saying that it only

[Wendy]

takes a handful of people to flip their vote around and all of a sudden in a binary choice it can flip the other way pretty fast. I, I think the funny thing is like you said McMahon when we did this one in December, I felt pretty strongly, I mean part because Jokic never gets hurt and I didn't expect him to have a 16 game absence with a bone bruise in his knee that if the Thunder fell off, Jokic would win because Jokic, his numbers are completely insane. And Shay being up there was in large part both because he's incredible and his team was. Having this undeniably incredible start to the year is really interesting, I think. I sort of wonder if people are aware of like sort of to Kevin's call to me how close the Western Conference standings are. And I do think there's a chance for things to get upset pretty quickly. If you know, let's say the Thunder continued to scuffle a little bit with these injuries and the spurs win nine in a row and end up ahead of them. Like people then are going to go whoa, look at that. Or if even Detroit, which is now I think percentage points actually ahead of the Thunder.

[Ben McMahon]

Detroit has the best winning record or winning percentage in the league right now.

[Wendy]

So like if Detroit rips off, you know, if they win that Cavs game with all on the all access day next week, they, they play the Knicks Thursday night. By the time you listen to this pod the game will have happened. I think the game want to say that games at the Garden.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's a good wager. So the, the Pistons have outscored the Knicks by 67 points this year. Yes, the, the Knicks have had to listen to that for the last two, three weeks. They get them coming out of the break. What do we think's going to happen in that game?

[Wendy]

Well, I said no Isaiah Stewart, no Jalen Duran if the Knicks can't win.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right, the suspension. Oh, I forgot about that.

[Wendy]

But listen I and with all your in the first two games they didn't have Jalen Durham either of the first two games. So that's true. You know, like. But yeah, so like Detroit, I think you to your point, like people are going to start to really clue in on, on Detroit right now I think even more than they have been. So yeah like Shay's got a really big lead obviously I think he's the very clear favorite to win particularly with the injury stuff in play for Jokic. Like it's more likely than not Jokic won't be eligible. Now if you told me he played every game the rest of the season Yeah, I could see that. But like, the chances of him having some knock over the next couple of months is at least plausible enough to make it a real possibility.

[Ben McMahon]

But I would also say there's a reason he came back with a little bit of a cushion.

[Wendy]

Oh, no question. Listen, I if you asked me to to truly bet is Nicole Yokich going to play the rest of the season or not, I would say yes, because the guy never has gotten hurt before, so. But it's close enough to at least leave open the real.

[Tim Bontemps]

Also, the Nuggets have been so banged up, they've just, they've needed them like well.

[Ben McMahon]

And people used to wonder whether Joker cared about mvp. He does. And that became clear late last year.

[Wendy]

Malika did a really nice job in an interview with Jokic and asked him I retweeted earlier, it's on social media. I'm sure anybody can find it. She asked him about this idea that people don't care and it was. I was glad that finally after all these people have acted like Jokic doesn't care about anything. He was like, yeah, of course I care about things. Why wouldn't I care about all this stuff? It's like, yeah, no kidding. This guy came from Serbia and became, you know, one of the 10 or 15 best players of all time. And he didn't care about basketball really. He doesn't care about like the narrative

[Tim Bontemps]

we're going to create statistical categories like relative to other players.

[Wendy]

He cares about statistical categories too. It's why he averages average triple double.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know, but not like he doesn't.

[Ben McMahon]

He's not a blatant stat chaser. Well, he did. He was like even before they changed the rule on the heaves, he was heaving in every opportunity. He broke the record for heaves last

[Tim Bontemps]

year because in all honesty, he just did the math. He did the math and he, he felt that the chance of making a heave was more important than a few percentage points. Also, he knows he's good and make a high percentage.

[Ben McMahon]

He thing shows you how much he cares about winning. But yeah, that's right. There have been and Joker's had a bunch of Sombor doubles as they call them, where he's like nine rebounds, nine assists. I've also seen him stay in to to get a 103 bound or a 10th assist a few times.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's.

[Wendy]

That's also not a crime. I'm not saying that is some sort of crime. Like it's totally fine. But of course the guy's a maniacal competitor. Like this has always driven me insane.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, you might call it the Sombor double doubles. Well. Or the Sombor doubles that would you call it? Well, there's a lot of Akron doubles on that too, because LeBron had a. Has had a bunch of near misses and he's had. Also had a bunch where he chased it for sure checked out.

[Ben McMahon]

By the way. The other thing I thought was really interesting in that Malik interview was Joker basically saying, hey, as long as I'm playing at a high level, I'll be playing. Like, don't think I'm gonna, you know,

[Wendy]

because there's again, I'm gonna hang it up at 30 if these people acting like he's gonna hang it up at 32 and go back and like he just wants to go be with the horses. Like, pretty sure the guy wants to continue to play basketball.

[Tim Bontemps]

He can be with the horses when he's 47.

[Ben McMahon]

And by the way, his game's going to age pretty well because he doesn't exactly rely on explosiveness as it is.

[Tim Bontemps]

He doesn't.

[Ben McMahon]

Hey, you didn't. You did mention the Nuggets health. I got trimmed on NBA today this afternoon, so I didn't get to get my little Nuggets reporting in there. But I can give a quick little report on their two guys who are out with Hammond.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, let's hear it.

[Ben McMahon]

Aaron Gordon, they sent a trainer with him. He went to Orlando for the All Star break. They sent a trainer with him. He portrayed. Anticipated some in practice yesterday. Full court score.

[Wendy]

That's a great sign.

[Ben McMahon]

He's dunking. He's. He's playing one on one. They're going to be cautious. Obviously this is the second time this year he's had a hammy. Also last year in the playoffs. The next step is getting him three on three, four on four, five on five. They're looking at doing that after this road trip. So next week. So he's still probably a couple weeks away. And then Peyton Watson's just a little bit behind that. You know, they're pleased with his progress. You know, they'll be cautious with him. With Watson, though, there's not the concern that there is with Gordon that this, you know, Gordon's had a lot of these soft tissue tissue injuries stack up on them the last couple of years where this is a first for Watson.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right. They're still going to be without him for a few weeks.

[Wendy]

I would say those top four guys all have, I think, a legitimate chance to win. I think the heavy favorite is Shea And I'd be pretty surprised if Shea doesn't win. But like because of the Jokic injury question, I don't think it's a two horse race. And I do think the door is I think legitimately open for those two young guys to potentially do a Derrick Rose and change the narrative a little bit. Because like I said, I think it will really jar people if the Thunder all of a sudden aren't leading the west or if the Thunder or if the Pistons like get a couple game lead and win these high profile national TV games. Like wait a second, Detroit is the best record the whole league really with this one guy as their, their main guy on offense.

[Tim Bontemps]

So what do you think the last time an American you felt had a chance after the second straw poll?

[Wendy]

You know, it's a good question. I don't honestly know if I've not

[Tim Bontemps]

to like go full Patriots.

[Wendy]

James Harden probably I was going to say does he have two were James Harden and Russ. So I mean I could go back and look, let me. I have all of them right here.

[Ben McMahon]

Well that was the Harden rust Kawhi here.

[Wendy]

Well the first year I did it was the, was 2017 when you had the four really the four horse race with James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Kawhi and LeBron. The next year was then LeBron and Harden and LeBron or yeah, LeBron and Harden. Then Harden, Curry, Durant, LeBron all in the top four. Then Giannis won the next two going away and from then on it was yeah, like, you know, it's, it's been Joelle and Nicole and then it's been Shea. So yeah, I mean it's been a, it's been a long time, probably seven, eight years.

[Ben McMahon]

Victor's gonna get, you know, he'll be an mvp, if not multi, multi time mvp.

[Wendy]

And I think Cade has got a very, I would say Cade is fourth on that list. I think Victor is more likely to win than Cade, but again Cade is of those guys. Cade is healthy and is far away from the injury threshold. So like if the Pistons have the

[Ben McMahon]

best record in the league, that is an awfully strong part of a, of an MVP case. Just like if the spurs end up atop the west for, for Victor for sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

Good work, Bontemps. Good analysis. Do you want to talk about this tanking story? I don't really want to kill the,

[Wendy]

I mean I talked about it at the beginning a little bit when we talked about it, but I, you know, longtime league executive who's proposed this in the past is pushing forward again. This year and, you know, it's got support in various places across the league. And essentially it's just to all these fixes we tend to talk about, whether it's removing draft odds or flattening the lottery or, you know, removing pick protections, all these other, all these things tend to be focused on trying to de. Emphasize losing as opposed to emphasizing winning. And you know, I, I've thought about this a lot since Pelton and I wrote a big story on tanking a year ago. And I just keep coming back to the only way to actually change the problem is to change the incentives. And I, I just think about where the league would be this year if this was in place. And coming out of the All Star break, you had all these bad teams make trades to get better and all these guys were coming back to play and you were going to be set up for this two month stretch going into the playoffs where everybody was going to be locked and loaded and playing hard and competing every night and you wouldn't be going through the schedule going, man, which of the. Hopefully there's all the 10 teams that are trying to lose are playing each other. So then everybody else is just playing like it's just really made the final couple months of the season a real dragon. And I think changing that to a system where everybody's incentivized to try to win these games when the most eyeballs are on the league and it's going into the playoffs and playoff races are being decided and like, there should be a lot of excitement about the second half of the season. Instead it's just like we're sitting here today and got Adam Silver having calls with GM saying, you know, we're going to fix this and not be able to do this anymore. And like, you know, it, it's, it's just a, it should be an exciting time of the schedule and instead it's kind of a dreary time in the schedule and it's largely because of this stuff. And I think this would be a rule that would, you know, cause teams to really have to try now and like him. For example, we've talked about Giannis having no reason to come back. Well, now Giannis should have a reason to come back and play.

[Ben McMahon]

And let's be honest, if Giannis comes back, we will be critical of the Bucks because it's a terrible decision for their franchise.

[Wendy]

And that sucks that, that sucks. It sucks that it sucks that we're sitting here talking about that.

[Tim Bontemps]

They won five of their last six, by the way. They've won five of their last six games and Giannis wants to come back and I'm like, boy, that's not going to help them.

[Wendy]

Right? It's that that sucks. Like, that's just not fun. You know, again, like we've, we've joked about Zubots, you know, coming back and Rick Carlisle, you know, get traded there. Rick, Carla sitting had this ankle injury. Like, it would be really fun if bad teams were incentivized to make trades at the trade deadline to get better and to make a push in the second half of the season. Like all the movement at the trade deadline this year was from bad teams trying to get better for 2027, in large part because the draft is good in 2027. So nobody wants to tank as opposed to the last two years when the draft has been awesome.

[Ben McMahon]

There's all this turbulence on the private jets once they're traded to aggravate injuries that were healed a month before, sometimes

[Tim Bontemps]

before they even get on the jet. It's a pre jet sometimes.

[Ben McMahon]

Exactly.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just want to say three things.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, one, okay, I know who the

[Tim Bontemps]

executive is who comes up with this and he would be on any blue ribbon panel to come up with a solution. And so I don't know if it'll work, but no one will have thought about it deeper. That's number one. Number two, the commissioner is now awoken on this and you can argue about whether or not he A, has been sleeping at the wheel too much and B, has the ability to impact behavior because it's not something that he has historically done.

[Wendy]

But they're going to impact behavior. It's just a question of what they're going to do. They're going to do something, I can promise you that.

[Ben McMahon]

But they're at least going to impact the overt behavior. Covert still.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, that's true. And let me just say that, you know, but. But now the commissioner is on the warpath about it. You know what that means

[Ben McMahon]

of outrage.

[Wendy]

Yeah. The last time he was on the war path about it was when Sam Hickey was doing this with the Sixers and they flattened the lottery odds. And look, I think you can make a fair argument. Lottery odds. Well, third point, I was just going to say to make a fair argument that flattening the lottery odds has made this a lot worse because you have now a lot more teams that are incentivized.

[Tim Bontemps]

That dovetails perfectly into my third point, which is.

[Wendy]

There you go.

[Tim Bontemps]

The first anti tanking maneuver was the lottery itself, which is 40 years old then they did five lottery changes. They altered the lottery five times. Then they installed the play in tournament, which is an anti tanking measure. So that is seven maneuvers to curb tanking. I do not believe the eighth, whatever it is, is going to solve it, but it can slow the bleed.

[Ben McMahon]

And that's why I do like the plan that Bontench wrote about. Because you're incentivizing winning down the stretch where teams are.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, you could argue though, the plan incentivizes winning, but it didn't.

[Ben McMahon]

It incentivizes everybody winning until the Mavs tanked away out of the play in. Right?

[Wendy]

Yeah, yeah, because. And with the, with the, with the flattened lottery, again, like this is where people saying, you know, I was on TV talking about this afternoon, Ramona was on or pal and she was like, well, you know, they should just flatten the odds across the lottery and have everybody have an equal chance because then

[Ben McMahon]

you'll never have a team trying to make the bottom the play in.

[Wendy]

Well, right. That's, that's the problem is any, anything that gives more teams a fair shot at getting the number one pick is only going to cause more teams to be incentivized to get the number one pick, which again, I totally like, we've talked about before. And as you've said repeatedly, Brian, we know all the people on these teams doing this, it's not like the team, the people on these teams doing this are thrilled to be trying to lose these games. Everybody wants to get in, gets into this business because they want to compete and win the highest level.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's good people doing these things. That's why, that's why I keep saying it's good people. Right.

[Wendy]

And the, and the facts are that the incentives are set up right now for these teams to try to get one of these players. And what's an unbelievably good draft, at least on paper. We'll see how it pans out in the future. But you know, again, the spurs have basically done this three times in their history and they got David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Victor Wembanyama. You could say everything else about Greg Popovich and R.C. buford and all the other things the spurs have done and I, I have immense respect for the Spurs. This is not meant as any sort of criticism, but the reason the spurs have been the. Probably the model franchise in the NBA for the past 35 years is because they got David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Victor Wembanyama in the lottery at the, with the number one pick in the draft and not Michael Ola. With Candy and Zachary Rishi and Anthony Bennett.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, you could have at least gone with three retired guys.

[Wendy]

I'm just saying, like, Rishi was between Cooper Flag and Victor Wembanya. That's tough, you know, but it's just true. Like, you know, there wasn't a guy and like, he's not like this draft, whoever gets the top pick or two in this draft has got a chance to get a guy who can fundamentally change a franchise. So you could get a guy who

[Tim Bontemps]

plays 18 minutes a night.

[Wendy]

He can't do that too.

[Ben McMahon]

Already ready to load. Manage. But he only has a manage his load for him. He does it himself.

[Wendy]

That's right. And. But that's why the fix has. It's why I really. To your point, McMahon, it's why I really like this idea and I really hope it gets some momentum because it's the only one. Like, shams put out a bunch of stuff that's been discussed. All of it was about de emphasizing losing. None of it was about giving everybody full incentive to really compete down the stretch and care about these games when. When everybody is tuning into the league for the first time.

[Ben McMahon]

And by the way, there's this like, you know these people who watch basketball while puffing on their wooden pipe with their sport coats that have elbow patches on them, there's this, oh, they should abolish the draft. They should abolish the draft. Dude, you ain't getting 24 freaking owners to vote on abolishing the draft because there's about how many, how many teams just going to be completely.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I know who's going to vote against it.

[Ben McMahon]

Every small market team as far as they're going to.

[Wendy]

Well, forget even that. I mean, Stan Van Gundy, I don't know if he walks around with patches on his. On his jackets. He is. He is pushed for this. But I would just say what do people really like? Trades. You want to know what generates trades around the league? Draft picks.

[Ben McMahon]

I like cigarettes in the pokey.

[Wendy]

We have a draft show every year. That was great. As you're wearing your. As you're wearing your thing, that could look like a jumpsuit there.

[Tim Bontemps]

I thought that's where he got it. I thought that was.

[Wendy]

Yeah. I also have orange, but yeah, so ultimately they just got to. They got to give Reese teams full reason to want to be as good as possible and not give them reasons to be bad, because if they do, they're going to lean into being bad. We've seen that, like, teams are going to do what's in their best interest. So make change that and they'll change their behavior.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, this is a Bontemps poll pod. I'm calling quits to it, even if you're making good points. All right. Strong work.

[Wendy]

Thanks, bud.

[Tim Bontemps]

McMahon. Great, great voting. You did. Your ballot was great work.

[Ben McMahon]

This is classic.

[Wendy]

Nice refereeing.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah. No, the superstar who kisses the referee's butt hoping he gets a favorable whistle. That's Wendy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, well, I learned by watching Luca.

[Wendy]

Wendy's like his boy Luca. Lots of complaints.

[Ben McMahon]

Luca has not quite mastered the art.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's true.

[Ben McMahon]

He has a lot of skill. That's what he needs to work on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you to our producers, Tucker, Jackson, Devon and Mark. Thank you to McMahon. Special thank you to Bon Temps. Some pods. He gets less than a full thank you. This one a special thank you. Like McMahon's honorable mention.

[Wendy]

Honorable thank you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you for listening to Watching the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you next week.

[Ben McMahon]

Adios, Migos.

[Wendy]

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[Ben McMahon]

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[Wendy]

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[Ben McMahon]

Let's Texas.