A Historic Disaster For Dallas + Playoffs For Blazers? Suns’ Struggles

Summary

Hoop Collective Podcast Summary Episode: A Historic Disaster For Dallas + Playoffs For Blazers? Suns’ Struggles
Release Date: March 5, 2025
Hosts: Brian Windhorst, Zach Lowe, Tim Bontemps

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1. Introduction

In this episode of the Hoop Collective, Brian Windhorst, Zach Lowe, and Tim Bontemps delve deep into the tumultuous events unfolding in the NBA, focusing primarily on the Dallas Mavericks' recent misfortunes, the Phoenix Suns' unexpected struggles, and the Portland Trail Blazers' playoff prospects.

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2. Dallas Mavericks' Historic Disaster

Unpopular Luka Doncic Trade

The Mavericks initiated a controversial trade involving their star player, Luka Doncic, which has since been a point of contention among fans and analysts alike. Brian Windhorst emphasizes the unprecedented nature of this move:

“Nothing like that has ever happened in the sport before.” ([02:45])

Kyrie Irving's Catastrophic Injury

Compounding the Mavericks' woes, Kyrie Irving suffered a severe torn ACL, effectively ending his season and casting doubt on the franchise's immediate future. Zach Lowe captures the profound impact of this injury:

“...it can totally derail the direction of a franchise.” ([02:34])

Brian Windhorst adds a visual account of Irving's injury, highlighting the emotional toll on both the player and the fanbase:

“Kyrie is just totally redemption Ville Luka triumphant...” ([05:01])

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3. Implications for the Mavericks' Future

Rebuilding Concerns

The combination of trading Luka and losing Kyrie due to injury places the Mavericks in a precarious position. Tim Bontemps argues for radical changes:

“I don't think Anthony Davis should ever play for the Mavericks again.” ([08:25])

Contractual and Leadership Challenges

The trio discusses Kyrie Irving's contract situation, with Zach Lowe suggesting that Irving will likely pick up his player option:

“He could, that's true, he could opt in and extend off of it.” ([22:41])

Brian Windhorst warns of the potential reputational damage if the Mavericks fail to support Irving adequately:

“If they don't take care of him, I think that would be a pretty decent damaging blow to the reputation of the D.” ([23:50])

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4. Phoenix Suns' Struggles Amidst Health

Despite maintaining a relatively healthy roster, the Phoenix Suns have been underperforming significantly. Brian Windhorst discusses the team's decline:

“They are spiraling... they embarrassed themselves the other night against the Minnesota Timberwolves.” ([32:39])

Draft Pick Implications

Tim Bontemps highlights the Suns' draft pick difficulties, suggesting that their poor performance could lead to unfavorable draft positions:

“...there's a real world where the Rockets have a better pick in this draft.” ([36:44])

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5. Portland Trail Blazers' Playoff Prospects

Contrary to their recent slump, the Trail Blazers have shown resilience and improvement, positioning themselves as playoff contenders. Brian Windhorst commends their defensive performance:

“They have the second best defense in the league. They're sixth in net rating plus eight points per 100 possessions.” ([43:33])

Tim Bontemps adds optimism about their chances:

“They have the second best defense in the league... They've been very real chance that they have a...” ([44:37])

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6. Commentary on the Los Angeles Lakers

The Lakers have experienced a resurgence, climbing to the second seed and demonstrating exceptional teamwork between stars like LeBron James and Luka Doncic. Zach Lowe remarks on their potential:

“If you defend, you give yourself a chance to win every game.” ([35:51])

Brian Windhorst reflects on Luka’s performance with the Lakers:

“He has had two games so far that are what I would say are typical Luca offensive performances.” ([46:25])

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7. Kyrie Irving's Contract Situation

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Kyrie Irving's contractual future. Zach Lowe posits that Irving will likely exercise his player option, given his determination to rebound from injury:

“...he will believe he will bounce back from this because his game, while he is not... he will be able to work wizardry with the ball when he recovers from the ACL.” ([29:30])

Brian Windhorst underscores the importance of Irving's role and the potential repercussions of mishandling his contract:

“He is the clear leader... they might still be in a position where they have to take care of Kyrie Irving.” ([23:45])

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8. Closing Thoughts

The Hoop Collective wraps up with reflections on the rapidly changing landscapes of the Mavericks, Suns, and Blazers. The hosts emphasize the unpredictability of the NBA and the far-reaching consequences of key trades and injuries.

Brian Windhorst concludes:

“You have not seen the best of Luka in a Lakers uniform.” ([46:25])

Tim Bontemps expresses cautious optimism about future developments:

“Every game they win, you got to give them more credit and have more faith that they could be a real threat in the West.” ([45:16])

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Notable Quotes

• Brian Windhorst ([02:45]): “Nothing like that has ever happened in the sport before.”

• Zach Lowe ([02:34]): “...it can totally derail the direction of a franchise.”

• Tim Bontemps ([08:25]): “I don't think Anthony Davis should ever play for the Mavericks again.”

• Brian Windhorst ([23:50]): “If they don't take care of him, I think that would be a pretty decent damaging blow to the reputation of the D.”

• Brian Windhorst ([32:39]): “They are spiraling... they embarrassed themselves the other night against the Minnesota Timberwolves.”

• Tim Bontemps ([36:44]): “...there's a real world where the Rockets have a better pick in this draft.”

• Brian Windhorst ([43:33]): “They have the second best defense in the league. They're sixth in net rating plus eight points per 100 possessions.”

• Zach Lowe ([29:30]): “He will believe he will bounce back from this because his game... he will be able to work wizardry with the ball when he recovers from the ACL.”

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This episode of the Hoop Collective provides an in-depth analysis of some of the most critical and dramatic developments in the NBA, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and opportunities facing key franchises as the season progresses.

Transcript

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[Zach Lowe]

Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA which we're doing I guess this afternoon, early afternoon here on the east coast on Tuesday. Joining me from New York, down the boulevard from me is Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Not sure which boulevard.

[Zach Lowe]

Avenue. I meant to say avenue. I don't know why I said boulevard.

[Tim Bontemps]

We're both in the same city. Hello everyone.

[Zach Lowe]

Joining us from Phoenix, Arizona where he's out taking a look at the red hot Phoenix suns as Ban McMahon.

[Brian Windhorst]

Howdy partners. It is tough times for the Phoenix Suns and certainly tough times for the teams or the team right above them in the standings. My hometown team, the Dallas Mavericks, dealt some devastating news this morning.

[Zach Lowe]

So it's time for another funeral, McMahon, and that's for this season. Look, when you have your two best players get hurt, it's incredibly unfortunate. Like we've seen it in the NBA, it derails seasons, it costs people jobs, it changes NBA history. Sometimes when you get your two players hurt and one of them has a catastrophic injury that will impact two seasons, it's horrible. It's, it's, you know, the game of basketball is so important with individual talent. And when you potentially lose a player of this quality, Kyrie Irving with a torn acl, when that happens, it's beyond upsetting. Again, it can totally derail the direction of a franchise. When that happens in conjunction with a historically unpopular trade that already threatens your medium short and medium term future, you enter into unfortunately or you original unique territory the last month because I think it was a month ago today, I think or a month ago tomorrow, maybe the trade was made on the fourth.

[Tim Bontemps]

Roughly a little bit more than a month.

[Zach Lowe]

I submit it's in the realm of the worst month for an organization in the history of the sport.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean it's got to be right up there. And look, like you said, not only was the Luca trade historically unpopular, it was historically unprecedented and we've gone over all that territory. But to give up a 25 year old 5 time first team all NBA selection a generational talent who wants to stay with your franchise. Nothing like that has ever happened in the sport before. Now that trade was made, it's the only way that you're going to kind of salvage things with a heartbroken and outraged fan base is to have tremendous success very soon. Anthony Davis, a player who unfortunately does have a significant injury history, was injured at the time of the trade and immediately became re injured, has not played since then and at this point, frankly it doesn't make sense for him to play again this season. Kyrie Irving has been dealing with injuries and as this trade happened and really even before the trade because Luka obviously was out, but he was playing the most minutes of any player in the NBA. A 32 year old undersized guard who's, you know, dealt with his fair share of injuries during his time. And you, you can't say, you know, A leads to B, but there's a reason that minutes are a concern. And then, you know, last night he makes a move where he splits two defenders on a, you know, in transition, gets a little bump from Jonas Valanchunas. Nothing dirty, you know, but Valanchunas is trying to cut him off and give him a bump. Lands extremely awkwardly on that left foot. And you knew that the second you saw, especially the replay, you saw the way his knee buckled. I mean there wasn't going to be good news coming out of it. It was just a matter of how bad the news is going to be. And as Sham's first reported this morning, it's a torn acl. That's all this season. We'll see how much of next season and who, you know, I do think like we need to just first give Kyrie some flowers here. It was a Kobe like moment where he knew, like Kyrie knew he just suffered a major injury, right? But he, he is helped to the free throw line. Anthony Davis and a maverick staffer, you know, he's got his arms around, they help him to the free throw line. He sinks the two free throws with the crowd on his feet, tears streaming down his face. And then he has to be helped off the floor for the final time this season. And this is costing him. He was going to probably be an all NBA player. You know, there's business ramifications. Million dollar bonus he's not going to get. You know, we can get into the contract stuff later on, but Kyrie, especially this season, but last season as well, and really even, even the year they had to tank after the trade, he's been nothing short of phenomenal on the floor for the Mavericks. And he has become a spectacular leader for this franchise that kind of kept this group together during historic chaos after that Luca trade. He was the. He was the one major face of the franchise who had consistent, good messaging after the trade, both internally and. And to the public. And, man, this fan base that was already gutted by the Luca trade now loses Kyrie for a while. The rest of the season then. And then we'll see moving forward. It is dark days in Dallas, man.

[Zach Lowe]

Having to experience that for Kyrie, for the rest of the Mavericks players and for the Dallas fans is torture. Because obviously, if you're watching the game, you know Kyrie's badly injured.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

Even if it's a sprained knee. Like, even if it was a best case scenario.

[Brian Windhorst]

Best case scenario is probably out the rest of the season. You know, there's a month left in the se. A month and change left in the season.

[Zach Lowe]

So, like, you're watching that, it's like getting your fingernails ripped out if you're a Mavs fan. And meanwhile, the Lakers are winning every game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Without Luca even playing at his normal levels, which is. We'll get to that later. I mean, the Lakers are scary. And, you know, honestly, Mavericks, like I was thinking about today, if I'm a Dallas Morning News editor, and I'll give them free advice, even though. Well, anyway, I'll give them free advice. I'll give my former employer some free advice. I would assign a reporter to cover the Lakers playoffs like that. That's the biggest. The biggest Mavericks fans. Again, a lot of them are either trans. They're. I don't want to say they're transferring to becoming Lakers fans, but they're definitely loyal to Luca. They're. They're Los Angeles Lucas fans, that's for sure. And they're just not going to be playoff basketball in Dallas. You know, at this point. Know, Anthony Davis is supposed to be reevaluated on Thursday. So is Derek Lively. Lively's working out, but he's got a boot on when he's not working out. Neither one of those guys is going to come back this week anyway. But there was hope of getting them back for the final two or three weeks of the regular season, you know, establishing as much chemistry as you can in that short of a time, you know, going into the playoffs with. With that group at this point. Why have them come back? Like, honestly, this team tanked two years ago late in the season, and that's a strategy that makes sense right now because without Kyrie what's getting in the playing going to do for this team? They're not, they're not getting out of the playing and they're certainly not going to make any kind of playoff run.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, there was a lot of symbolism in the Dallas Mavericks raising season ticket prices yesterday and this happening a few hours later. I think it just underscores Brian's point for how catastrophic the past month has been for the franchise. And I'm going to be honest, I don't think Anthony Davis should ever play for the Mavericks again. He shouldn't play the rest of the season and they should trade him this summer.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, that's aggressive.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's not aggressive. They, Nico Harrison talked about they're having a three or four year window with this group that included this season. Okay. Kyrie Irving is going to be a 33 year old guard who just had a catastrophic knee injury, was a player option for next season. He, you basically have to write him off at being a, a, a major contributor for next season. Maybe he can come back and do that. You have to assume if you're running the franchise, he's not going to do that. At that point, Anthony Davis will have one year guaranteed left on his deal. He's going to be approaching his 33rd birthday. This team has really no ability to contend as it stands now without a proper star next to Anthony Davis. You're correct that they should tank for this year's draft because there's nowhere this team is going now anyway.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, also, it's kind of like whether they try or not, they're going to be losing.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, they're going to. Because again, this goes back to the trade deadline where, I mean, look, I would say it's because as you said, this was a sort of a freak accident. And I would say that the minutes limit or the minutes low that Kyrie has had is not necessarily a contributing factor to this injury.

[Zach Lowe]

We'll never know, however, we'll never know the point.

[Tim Bontemps]

But that's not the point. The point is they got through the trade. We talked about it when they made the Luca trade. If you're going to make the Luka Doncic trade, it was frankly insane at the time to get through the trade deadline and have one reliable ball handler on the roster.

[Brian Windhorst]

And frankly, they traded. Not that Quentin Grimes is a primary ball handler, but he, he was a guy who was playing well for them offensively as a goal for a guy in.

[Tim Bontemps]

Caleb hasn't played, who hasn't played, he hasn't played. He's been Hurt.

[Brian Windhorst]

Caleb Martin was assigned to the Texas Legends today to, to, you know, get some practice time in. Quentin Grimes had a 44 point game last, last week.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh my God, look, I haven't even computed that McMahon.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, Jesus. You know, but when you talk about Kyrie's minutes, like if Grimes is on the roster, you can, you know, he can.

[Tim Bontemps]

At least he's not even a ball handler they needed to go get. If you're going to make this Luca trade, you had to go get another high level. Because again, the whole point was, the whole, the argument for the trade was we're better right now, we're going to be good right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and the other argument for the trade was, oh my gosh, we can't give that guy the supermax. And again, that's the part, like I get the conditioning concerns. I don't think you trade a 25 year old generational talent, but I get that part is, but the supermax thing, that's already supermax.

[Zach Lowe]

Water under the bridge.

[Tim Bontemps]

That part's water under the bridge. That's why to me.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, my, my point is this. If you have him on a supermax deal in a year and a half, you still feel the same way. You put him up to the highest bidder. Making the trade now was not necess.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, but that's all water under the bridge now. That's why we have to look at the situation they're in now. Which is why Anthony Davis should not be on the team next season. He should not be. The, the prudent thing to do for the Mavericks, as insane as it is because of what's happened over the last month, is to trade him this summer for a bat, for a giant bag of stuff and start over. Because this group, that's not gonna happen, going to win. It's. Well, again, like you could argue Nick Harrison shouldn't have a job in a month for how this has gone. Like, that probably won't happen either. But like if, if you're asking what should the Mavericks do, there's no question what the Mavericks should do. They should trade Anthony Davis because they do not have a chance to win with this team. And the whole point of putting this together was to win now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, the other problem though, and this was a problem when you made the trade of Luca and, and this was because you actually managed to build a contender around him, but in doing so, you gave up control of your draft capital from 27 to 30. And so like pivoting into a rebuild is, it's, it's it's, it's like the Phoenix Suns right now pivoting into a rebuild for the Phoenix Suns doesn't make sense unless you can get back your draft capital now, the Suns, it'd be a lot easier. There's one team that, that's holding it for the Mavericks, it's the Hornets. And then it's your closest geographical rivals, the Thunder, the Rockets and the Spurs.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, and I'm not saying they're going to get their draft capital back, but I mean it's sort of, it's, it, it is analogous to what I've talked about, at least with the sun situation where like there's not a realistic path to contention with this group. I guess you could argue to me if you want that Kyrie Irving will come back at 34 at 100% off this knee and he'll be a star guard and you'll play him with AD and that'll be the core of a contending team. I just, I don't think that's, I'm sorry, that's not a prudent way to approach running a franchise when you're talking about already a small guard who was already dealing with back issues, who's had a lot of health issues over the years, now has had a bad injury to the same knee hurt eight, nine years ago. And Anthony Davis already gets hurt a lot anyway and is only getting older and is only getting more expensive. Like it's just the only argument for the Luca trade was we can win right now and all they've done is lose since then, have these guys get hurt since then. And it's like, I mean, I think I agree with you, Brian. It's hard to imagine a worse month for a team, especially when you're talking about self inflicted wounds for most of it.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, the thing about it is, is that you can have bad injury luck. And you know, there are many teams that set themselves up beautifully four, three, four years in a row and maybe only one of those years they are truly healthy. The, the thing that they did with Luca, as you've pointed out, is that they tightened their window three to four.

[Brian Windhorst]

Years by Nico Harrison's own words.

[Zach Lowe]

So the problem is, is that when you have, when you lose a year due to injury, which, you know, the warriors are the classic example of this. They, they were totally derailed due to injury, they retooled and they won. Now obviously that doesn't happen to every team, but that's what you're looking at. You lose a year. I mean, I've talked about this in the past. When you go to the lottery and you look at those 14 teams in the lottery, there's two types of teams there, there's tanking teams and there's injured teams because there's been plenty of well constructed teams that end up in the lottery because of bad injury luck. And we just. Something that we just sort of happens in basketball. You just see certain teams have a string of injuries. Like some teams never get hurt and some teams, their whole team gets hurt. It just, it's a nature of basketball. But because they traded the 25 year old for the, for the 30 year old and banked on the other 30 year old, they now cannot withstand injury. They just can't. They can't do as much if you have a younger team that does it. Like, I don't want to be accused of drinking something, but let's say last year the Celtics had some injury concerns. Like a couple of players got hurt. They'd still be back this year with the window wide open. But when you've, when you've, jammed the window shut, you've. You forced, you've just given yourself no margin for error.

[Tim Bontemps]

So they announced they had a three to four year window. And in the first year of the window, the guy blew his knee out. Probably knocks you out of the second year of the window. Now the window's closed. The window's closed a month later.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, and so that's what I'm just saying, like, on one hand it's terrible fortune. On the other hand, they have put themselves in a position where they have no ability to withstand terrible fortune.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, the injuries are terrible misfortune. The trade was your decision. And it's a decision that was, you know, immediately shocking and outrage your fan base. And more than a month later, honestly.

[Tim Bontemps]

It'S only gotten worse.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. And this fan base, the outrage is turning into apathy. And that is. And, and like they like announced yesterday they're raising season ticket prices and it's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Just like, wow, like I said earlier, the combination of that happening the day this happened with Kyrie is just like Sunday for this thing McMahon.

[Zach Lowe]

We were in Dallas for the finals. Just beautiful, sunny Dallas days, you know, like, yeah, they were losing and whatever.

[Tim Bontemps]

But like had one of the best players through age 25 on the roster in the history of the sport. And less than a year later, the entire thing has gone up in smoke.

[Zach Lowe]

That night in Minneapolis, where they won the series in five.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And Kyrie is just totally redemption. Ville Luca triumphant. Patrick Dumont accepting the trophy you know, congratulations, Nico Harrison, like being argued for executive of the year because of the. The trades.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like Derek getting votes this year.

[Zach Lowe]

Derek Lively tossing down. Tossing down these lobs and like, oh, my God, what a perfect player for Luca.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. You had it set up. And. And the.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, that wasn't n. That wasn't nine years ago.

[Tim Bontemps]

And the moves that they made nine months ago.

[Brian Windhorst]

Drafting Lively, drafting Lively. The tank was totally worth it. You got the perfect big. To pair with your generational star who hasn't hit his prime yet. You know, you get Gafford. Okay, You've got a tag team of those guys now. P.J. washington. Hey, we didn't think it was a good trade at the time. We were wrong. He. He's been great in Dallas and he. You surrounded Luca with this big, long, athletic group. You know, Kyrie and Luca, the chemistry was. I mean, was phenomenal. You know, the. The. The Hermanos, I mean, they had something and things went. Things got really. I mean, the relationship between Luca and specifically Nico Harrison really went to poop this year. But, man, to. To. For that to lead to a trade and. And again, the condition concerns. I get it. But my goodness, I don't get like, you wait a year. You super Max the guy you see. If you still feel that way, here's.

[Zach Lowe]

What the situation really is. You have extreme sympathy for Kyrie Irving.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

You have. I got sympathy for Anthony Davis.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

Who.

[Brian Windhorst]

Who probably came back too soon when he was hurt because he was trying to get the world off of Nico Harrison's neck.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. There's. By the way, I'm not a doctor. There's no doubt he came back too soon.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that's questionable. You know, it was a connected injury.

[Zach Lowe]

You have extraordinary sympathy for the Mavericks fans.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, some of them. Not the ones who say really mean things.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, fine. The. In total, the fan base.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, the. The. The. The fan base that had poured their heart into this franchise. It thought they got the perfect successor to Dirk that the torch been passed. They were going to get an entire career of another generational star as a face of the franchise. Yes, it is as big a gut punch as you've ever seen in basketball.

[Zach Lowe]

But for the. For the team itself, despite it not being quote unquote, their fault that Kyrie and Anthony Davis got hurt, there's going to be an absence of sympathy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, there is no sympathy because this, again, this is the situation that they, you know, frankly, Nico Harrison sort of boasted about. He's like, we built a team for the next three or four years. And look, the, the bottom line is again, like it's. I know people are going to hear me say this about Anthony Davis and it's going to sound hyperbolic, but it's really not like it, it does not make sense for him to be on the roster next season.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean that is how we're dealing in, in, in fairy tale land.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's not fairy tale land. I'm saying what they should do. I should not have traded Luca, obviously, but they should. If you're, if you're really running the team properly, if you really are, if you're really doing the job, he shouldn't be on the team.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, the reason I completely disagree with that is because pivoting into a rebuild makes no sense.

[Tim Bontemps]

Doesn't mean you have to pivot into a rebuild. But they're. You're. What. Where are you going? Where are you going with into his mid-30s Anthony Davis and no, no perimeter players and no draft picks.

[Zach Lowe]

That's a decision that I think could be in the summer, but not the summer 25. I think that's a decision for the summer 26.

[Tim Bontemps]

Again, I'm not saying the Mavericks are doing it. Nico Harrison's clearly, if he's still in charge, he's clearly not going to trade Anthony Davis two months after he traded Luke from for Luca Doncic form. So I'm not saying that's what he is going to do. But if you, if you look at where the Mavericks are at, the situation is so bad so fast that the correct thing for them to do would be to do that.

[Brian Windhorst]

The really difficult decision this summer is going to be Kyrie Irving's contractual situation. More Hoop collective podcast after this.

[Zach Lowe]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Zach Lowe]

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[Zach Lowe]

So here's Kyrie Irving's situation. Contractually, he has a $44 million player option for next season that I think a lot of people assumed he was going to bypass and enter free agency with the likelihood of just resigning in Dallas. And it was really going to be a question of how much could he get from the Mavericks, you know, or.

[Brian Windhorst]

At least extend off of it, right?

[Zach Lowe]

He could, that's true. He could opt in and extend off of it. Now, I think it's pretty elementary he's going to pick that up. I suppose the Mavericks could work something out, but it's hard to know what the future is going to be. And I think that. I think it would probably be prudent just to pick it up. But.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, you say that I don't want to assume that Kyrie was in a position where he was going to have as much leverage over the Mavericks as you could possibly imagine. You make the Luca trade, he's, you know, the franchise weight is is on the shoulders of him along with ad, but he's the clear leader. Like you were going to have to take care of them. And honestly, they might still be in a position where they have to take care of Kyrie Irving. And you can talk. Well, because if you ever want to get players in Dallas, if you do Kyrie wrong after the way the LUCA trade went down. And let's just be frank, the franchise dumped on him on the way out, boy, that's going to be awfully tough to overcome from a perception standpoint with players throughout the NBA. This is not, this is not corporate America. This is not Nike. It is not the Las Vegas Sands Corporation. This is a business that is built around the players. And I'm just telling you, if after everything Kyrie has done for this franchise if, if they don't take care of him, I, I think that would be a pretty decent damaging blow to the reputation of the D. Define take care of him.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't know what that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean this, I mean this is a, this is an insane position to take. I mean, what, think you can't be signing this guy to some long term contract this summer when you have absolutely no idea what he's going to look like off this injury. Like, you just, you can't do that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, you hope he picks up the player option, you know, you hope he does that.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, look, the comparison here is to, is to Ky. Is to Kobe. Yeah, Kobe tore his Achilles and the Lakers gave him a two year, 48.

[Brian Windhorst]

Famously took the free throws just like Kyrie. I mean it was a.

[Zach Lowe]

After playing insane minutes, although Kobe's minutes. Kobe was playing like 46 a night.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, he was playing basically every minute of every.

[Zach Lowe]

Really not compare. It's really not comparable. However, yeah, there is some parallel.

[Tim Bontemps]

Kyrie, Kobe's idol, you know, Ky. Kobe was Kyrie's idol. I don't think it was a mistake or an accident that he did that.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, in the moment.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I mean the visual of him at the free throw line with the tear running down his cheek is unfortunately the image of the maverick season. And it'll be, this is a man who has one of the most indelible memories of the last 20 years in the NBA of hitting that three pointer. In fact, when he was back at the All Star weekend and there was the, the events at Oracle, whatever it's called now, I think he was with Cassidy Hubbard for an interview and he was kind of reliving like the spot, you know, because he hadn't been back, you know, in years. He was kind of reliving the spot. So this is a guy who's already got, you know, this incredible moment. But the, the memory of Kyrie Irving, one of the memories of his career now is going to be that moment. But, but I don't think he's. Kobe, like they can't give him a thank you for the five championships.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was a, that was a dumb decision at the time too, but I.

[Zach Lowe]

Understand why they did it.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I. No, this is again, like, I'm just.

[Brian Windhorst]

Saying if Kyrie ops out, the Mavericks are in a very, very, very tough spot.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't think they're in a very tough spot. It would be, I mean, again, look, we're talking about somebody who has done some delusional things. It would be a delusional thing to have $42 million on the table and opt out of it after 44. Sorry, after you're. You blew out your knee. Like, I mean, if he does that, then. Okay, like if somebody wants to pay him a max fine.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I'll say this, this contract, there was not a free, a real free agency market for Kyrie when he signed this contract, which it was not a max deal. You know, he, he, he took enough under max to leave the Maverick some wiggle room to, to operate and try to make upgrades. But if you recall the big question after the trade with Kyrie, in terms of, after the trade to get him from Brooklyn, I'm saying in terms of that summer was, are the Lakers going to make a run? Adam, they chose not to. They resigned D'Angelo Russell and Rui Hachimura and you know, whatever. The Lakers could have made that a difficult decision for Kyrie. They wouldn't have been able to get to the same numbers the Mavericks, but they could have gotten to a point where he would have had a decision to make. They didn't. There was no market for Kyrie in free agency above mid level and the Mavericks gave him a three year deal for 120 million and change and he wasn't coming off. But it was also because they understood like, dude, when you're dealing with players, it's not corporate America where you get what you get.

[Tim Bontemps]

And you know, that was a, that Kyrie Irving wasn't hurt. This is a totally different situation.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, oh, it's a different situation. I agree with that.

[Zach Lowe]

No, I think, I think he's opted into that contract and then they're going to reevaluate everything when they see the lay of the land different in a year from now. That's what makes the most.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, like, and, and look, if he comes back and plays well, like, look, if Nico is still in charge of the team despite the fact of what they should do with the roster, I'm sure they're not going to trade Anthony Davis. And if Kyrie comes back and by the end of next season is playing like Kyrie Irving again, then I'm sure they will pay him. If that, if all of these factors are all still in place, if Nico's still there, if the same plan is.

[Brian Windhorst]

Still in place, you being so convinced that they just like trade Anthony Davis. For who?

[Zach Lowe]

No, look, listen, well, I'm not, I'm.

[Tim Bontemps]

Don'T, I'm not going to start laying out hypothetical anything.

[Zach Lowe]

Analytically. Analytically, I understand his position, McMahon. I understand, Anthony Davis's value is only.

[Tim Bontemps]

Doing this, only going down.

[Brian Windhorst]

You created three to four year time frame. The first two years of that's probably certainly.

[Tim Bontemps]

And those were the two realistically the two best years of the time frame. That's, that's the problem. Like again. But my point is like whatever you want to say about what they should do with Kyrie Irving, like he just blew his knee out, extending him on some huge deal right now would be insane to do. You have to see what he.

[Zach Lowe]

The only thing that would make any sort of sense on any sort of contract is if Kyrie were to take a big pay cut off of that 44 million. I would sign a multi year deal that adds guaranteed money to him that would give the Mavericks flexibility for next year. And I mean, again, it's kind of like trading Anthony Davis. I can produce a white paper. I can produce a, you know, a deck that, you know, explains why that would make sense. But practically, I don't know.

[Tim Bontemps]

And it's not like they can do anything salary wise anyway. They're way over the tax or they're way over cap. It's not like they could go sign free agents if they did that.

[Brian Windhorst]

And if like I'm Kyrie Irvin, talk me into it, like I'm going to give money back. You know, Kyrie's still like one of the most skilled players in the history. I understand the age and all that. But if he takes his money next year, there will be some level of mark. The other thing is Kyrie's reputation has been completely repaired during his stint in Dallas. And I'm not saying it's smoke and mirrors. I think that is a credit to him, a credit to, you know, the growth that he's made, the maturation, the work that he's done, you know, like I'm talking about like mental health work that he's done. Like I know the history with Kyrie, but I'm just telling you in Dallas, the guy has been nothing short of an ideal leader for that. Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

And he's been a actually a really good is in a time when they need an ambassador, he's been as good of an ambassador as they could have while also keeping respect towards Doncic. Their relationship has not suffered at all. I would just say that no matter what, no matter, no matter what is, no matter what's going on, Kyrie will believe he will bounce back from this because his game, while he is not, while he is a guard and guards getting hurt, getting bad injuries in their 30s is not great. As you said, McMahon, his game is predicated on skill. It's not predicated on speed, on athleticism. Obviously, you have to be able to move an NBA level, but he will be able to work wizardry with the ball when he recovers from the acl. So if I'm him, you're focusing on getting better and you're betting on yourself, which means you pick up the option and see where you are in a year. Okay, so the Mavericks right now, as we record this podcast, are in 10th place by a game. They are only two games out of sixth, which was an interesting conversation 24 hours ago, but is not really now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

So now let's look at the teams below them. The suns have lost eight of 10. You're there in Phoenix. You've been there for several days, McMahon. They've. They're three games back in the loss column of the Mavericks.

[Brian Windhorst]

They are. And. And they're spiraling. And you know, you, Kevin Durant at this. Honest. I mean, he. He said it perfectly. They embarrassed themselves the other night against the Minnesota Timberwolves. The only transition defense they played the entire second half was when Bradley Beal pushed Ant midair when Ant was going Harlem Globetrotters on him, trying to throw down a dunk off the, you know, divincenzo lob. This was moments after Ant danced in the paint after hitting some free throws. You know, I had 44 points, by the way, also the only time. I'm going on a tangent here, but I. This is just too good. The only time I've ever seen a review that turned an out of bounds on the offensive team into a flagrant one, like the ref, you know, it was a little fella at the vantage point. I don't know. He's looking way up, but how do you miss that call?

[Zach Lowe]

First off, Bradley Beal is out of line with that foul. Anthony Edwards could have gotten hurt. If you don't want him to dunk, then you get back there and you give a real foul where you get up there and you foul him on the catch. You do not push him in the air. Yeah, and I know Beal said after the game that he was just. He didn't want to let that happen. He thought it was. They were. I don't know.

[Brian Windhorst]

They were showboating. Yeah, they're basically. They were showboating.

[Zach Lowe]

So absolutely unacceptable. From a guy in Bradley Beal who does not have the. Who does not have that reputation. His. There's nobody but that.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's indicative of the frustration throughout Phoenix Suns organization real quick, though. And we talked last pod about the 16 T's and all that. So you can imagine how upset Ant was that he didn't get a whistle immediately on that. If you see he got up, Beal actually helped him up. He got up and bolted toward the bench with his hands up. And according to one of his teammates, he said, just take me out of the game now. Take me out of the game. He did. He was not going to talk to the refs.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't understand. I was watching it and I didn't understand they didn't call the foul. I thought, oh, they're just going to check to see if it's a flagrant two, which I thought it might have been quite.

[Brian Windhorst]

They called out of bounds on the, on the Wolf.

[Zach Lowe]

I didn't understand that he, he wasn't. There was no foul call.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was a moment that was indicative of just how frustrated the Phoenix Suns are. You know, Kevin Durant postgame talked about how they embarrass themselves. Devin Booker has talked a Booker's postgame media session lasted, I believe, 73 seconds.

[Zach Lowe]

But I don't think it was that long. I watched it, I thought it was under a minute.

[Brian Windhorst]

I, according to my time, I was there 73 seconds.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, that's a good source.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, I looked at this thing, but in the week prior, he's talked a lot about the, the poor communication with the Phoenix Suns. You know, our buddy Chris Haynes reported that Mike Budenholzer had gone to Booker and basically said, hey, stop talking so much, you know, in huddles, like tone it down. And then Booker was shocked by that. I can tell you that report is 100% accurate. That did happen. There's a lot of friction between the, the coach, you know, between Bud, who's the third coach and two and a half years under this ownership group and, and the players on this roster. You still got all the kind of lingering stuff from the trade deadline that, that's hovering, you know, Wendy, you've said, and it's, it's common sense, the anticipation is that Kevin Durant will work with the Suns this summer to find a trade destination. It's. Even though the window is now open, it's hard to imagine that the sun's just kind of sweep all this stuff under the rug and go on a little run here.

[Zach Lowe]

Like I will say this, like this is, you would think this is. Not that you ever want to look at one of your peers injuries as a rallying point, but if you're looking for an opportunity to put your foot in the ground and say, let's find a way to pivot here. You know, looking at the team directly in front of them, having this injury situation like this is the moment. I just don't know if they're equipped to do it at this point. I mean, they're actually healthy. For all their lack of health, they. They're actually healthy right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Suns, it's hard to put the air back in the balloon, you know, and this, this, this franchise feels like a big, bright, deflated balloon right now.

[Tim Bontemps]

Look, they're 7 and 13 in their last 20 games. They've basically been healthy for every game. I think they've easily been the most disappointing team in the league. When you look at the situation they're in, coupled with the fact that the guys have been healthy, if you look at what they've got coming down the stretch, they have 21 games left. Eighteen of them are against teams winning records. One of those games is against Dallas. You want to say Dallas is a bad team now, fine. 17 of the 21 games are against playoff teams and teams with winning records. I mean, how many of those games are they winning? And the. The un. And the unbelievable thing about this is there is a world where the Houston Rockets get a better draft pick out of the Phoenix Suns out of the trade they made with the Brooklyn Nets. Yeah, to give the. Give the next back their pick and take back the Phoenix Sunspect.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, my God.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's unlikely, but there's a real world where the Phoenix Suns have a better pick in this draft.

[Zach Lowe]

Just real quick, I want to unpack what you just said because I hadn't thought about that. That's this kind of stuff. The reasons we keep on temps around McMahon. Every now and then we get ready to throw them out, we decide to bring them back.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know the Rockets and Suns pick situation. We give it ditch Bond Tims for.

[Zach Lowe]

That as a reminder.

[Brian Windhorst]

But USWB moment here for sure.

[Zach Lowe]

When the Suns did the deal for Kevin Durant, they traded away their control of like seven straight drafts to the Nets. The Nets had those. Had those picks which are obviously very valuable. The Nets wanted to do their own tank job, but they couldn't tank because they had traded away control of their next few drafts to the Rockets in the James Harden trade. So last year there was a unique trade made where the Nets reacquired the control of their next two drafts by trading the Sun's assets. Two or three of the Sun's assets to the Rockets and the Rockets were Betting on sort of the sun struggling more medium range as opposed to short term because they figured well the Sun's pick in 25, 26 probably not going to be as good as it potentially is 27, 28 or 29 or whatever they got. And so what Bontemps is pointing out is that despite that that the Nets who have significantly overachieved and are messing around and you know, potentially making the play in despite multiple tanking trades made by their front office, the Suns could sink below them in the Suns.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Suns are likely to fall behind them fully but they're right now tied for 11th in lottery standings with Atlanta and they're San Antonio has that picked and they're a half game up on Portland. We'll talk about in a bit. And you know they're very real chance that they have a. They potentially are sending a top 10 pick to the Rockets at minimum which is certainly not what the expectation would have been when the season began.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well and they got the, the Rockets got this year that, that swap. They got the.

[Zach Lowe]

Is that protected? That swap?

[Brian Windhorst]

No, it's not protected.

[Zach Lowe]

My God, what if Suns hit into the top four?

[Brian Windhorst]

Nor is the 27 pick that they got.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, but 27, that was my point about.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nor is the 29 pick that the Rockets got from this and I get that. Nor is the Mavericks pick that the Rockets got from the Kyrie trade. The Rockets got four draft assets for giving back two.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm pretty sure Atlanta jumped up from 10th last year to the number one pick. It would be quite something if the Rockets end up a Cooper flying.

[Zach Lowe]

We've routinely seen teams outside the top eight jump into the top four. Since the lottery odds were rebalanced with I think the Zion John Morant draft, we routinely almost guaranteed to see at least somebody from beyond seven and down get in the top four.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like that's, you know, we're talking about the Mavs misfortune opening up an opportunity for a struggling Suns team. Just to put in perspective, the Suns have won three times since Feb. 1. They beat the Jazz at home. Let me just tell you their three wins. They beat the Jazz at home in overtime. Oh, they beat the late to the game tanking Bulls and then they beat the Pelicans. The second ever back to back after the Pelicans smoked the Suns night before. Zion sat the second night. Those are their three wins. And then they open. They open March by again. KD summed it up well by embarrassing themselves against the Timberwolves. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies. Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report, this episode is brought to you by Lifelock. During tax season, your personal info travels to a lot of places between payroll, your tax consultant, and the IRS. If your W2 gets exposed, that's just.

[Zach Lowe]

The ticket for identity thieves.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's why Lifelock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast Terms apply.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, on January 18, the Blazers lost their fifth game in a row and fell to 13 and 28, which is flag, baby.

[Brian Windhorst]

Here he comes.

[Zach Lowe]

Which is not that far from where we thought they would be. Then they began a stretch where they won 10 of 11 games going to the All Star break and they going into tomorrow night's game in Boston, which, you know, not feeling so good about that. But you never know. They are now 28 and 34. So since that stretch, since January 18, they are 15 and 8. Okay, and which is their best friend of basketball probably since the Lillard trade. And so now they sit at four games out of 10th place in the Western Conference with the Suns and the Mavericks ahead of them. And the team that's tied for them with them is the Spurs. So the three teams around them are either badly injured, by the way, Stefan Castle's been putting up huge numbers since Victor went down. I don't know if anybody's paying attention. He's probably, this is the time for another pod. But he's, he's vaulting himself toward the front of the rookie of the year standing.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was gonna say people, people with a rookie of the year vote need to pay attention. But yeah, so listen, number one, a lot of people pounce on the Blazers for not making a trade at the deadline. But you know what? They, they wanted to see how this young group would.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I questioned it too, but then I predicted the teams all around them to fall the pieces.

[Brian Windhorst]

But, but it was absolutely fair to question. You know, you, I think you can still make the argument that it would have been in the long term best interest, but they gave this young group a chance to, you know, to see what they could do together. And, and this team has responded. Chauncey Billups all season long, or at least the first half of the season, there was all kinds of noise, speculation whatever you might be, about his job security. Chauncey Phillips has done one hell of a job coaching this team and you know, a trade that the Blazers made last summer has paid great dividends. Denny Abdia is proven to be a really, really, really versatile.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, that was an excellent trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

Another trade that they made before last season has paid dividends. And look, deandre Ayton is a polarizing player but to get to Monte Kamara in that deal, it was a great move. Let me just tell you during this 20 game, the last 20 games since, you know, last 21, he's played 20. This stretch that you referred to, he's averaged almost 13 points on 55 shooting, 47% from three point range, seven rebounds, almost two assists, almost a block per game. He's, he's a, he's a great defensive player. They've got some nice pieces. Scoot Henderson is certainly after a rough rookie season has, has shown some flashes. And the best thing for a young team like this in terms of development is to be able to play meaningful basketball games late in the season, you know, perhaps in the play. And that's one of the benefits I think of the play in scenario. And Portland to their, to, you know, to the Blazers credit, has positioned themselves where they get to play meaningful basketball for the final month and a half of the season.

[Tim Bontemps]

Think they're going to make the play in. When you look at the way the Blazers have played over the last several weeks, 15 and six in their last 21 games over that stretch, they have the second best defense in the league. They're sixth in net rating plus eight points per 100 possessions. These young guys have all taken steps forward. You just laid out some of them there. Mcban. It's been an awfully impressive turnaround. And you look at the disaster that the Suns have been and you look at the seemingly impending disaster that Dallas is going to be like, yeah, they got to make up three or four games over the next six weeks. But Portland's playing better than all these other teams for sure.

[Zach Lowe]

The Lakers woke up at the beginning of the week on Monday in the second seed. They've got the Pelicans and the Knicks at home this week. And then they come east and Bontemps, you're going to see them Saturday against the Celtics, they are, got a couple of guys down right now, but they avoided major injury with, with Hatchimur and Austin Reeves. So by Saturday night. Bon, is that, is that a f, Is that a Finals preview?

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, look, the Lakers keep winning games, they keep guarding. You know, I, I want, like I've said a couple times, I want to see how they go through this whole stretch, but every game they win, you got to give them more credit and have more faith that they could be a real threat in the West. And while I still do wonder about their defense ultimately at the highest level, when you've got Luca and LeBron playing together on the wing, two huge wings who are incredibly high basketball IQ guys who can set up their teammates as well as anybody who's ever played, you're going to have a shot. And you know, it's, it's just unbelievable to look at where the Lakers are today and where the Mavericks are today compared to where they were this past summer. It's, it's frankly remarkable.

[Brian Windhorst]

How about go back to Christmas, the day that Luca went down and the Mavericks were playing as well as anybody in the league at that point. Certainly anybody in the Western Conference. And look, the defense with the Lakers, will there maybe be some aggression? Probably. I mean the three point shooting numbers tell you probably, but they are locked in, they are believing in it. And you know, defense wins championships. Nico Harrison says, well, the Mavericks were the number one defense for the last quarter of the season. Luka can be a functional defensive player, especially when you protect him and you put him in a position to be a help defender where he can use his hands, he can use his anticipation. So will the defense slip a little? Probably. But I promise you this, you have not seen the best of Luke in a Lakers uniform. That he has had two games so far that are what I would say are typical Luca offensive performances. Two, the guy is still shooting under 40% from the floor in a Lakers uniform. He is going to average 30 ish points on good efficiency. They are rolling right now with him nowhere close to that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Lakers exceptionalism exists for a reason. That's all I'm going to say.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I will say this, this, this road trip will be a really good test. It's Boston, I think Brooklyn, Boston, Brooklyn, Milwaukee. And then they get the rematch in Denver after they, you know, use that defensive game plan against Jokic. And you know, everybody's leaving Russell Westbrook open. I'm sure that the Lakers, who are leaving all three point shooters, they don't respect open, we'll be doing that again. But let's see where the Lakers are at the end of that road trip. I'm not putting anything past them right now because if you defend, you give yourself a chance to win every game. So second place, let's see the next time we talk where they're at. All right. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you to Bon Thompson McMahon. Thank you for listening and watching the who collective. We will talk to you later this week.

[Brian Windhorst]

Adios, amigos.

[Zach Lowe]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Zach Lowe]

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