A Proper Ending For Warriors? Wemby Grew? & Flagg Playing PG

Summary

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective — Episode Summary

Episode Title: A Proper Ending For Warriors? Wemby Grew? & Flagg Playing PG
Release Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst ("Wendy")
Guests: Anthony Slater ("Slater"), Vincent ‘Vinnie’ Goodwill

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Brief Overview

This episode explores the state and future of key NBA franchises and storylines—most notably the Golden State Warriors’ attempts at a “proper” and graceful conclusion to their dynasty, the simmering possibilities with Giannis Antetokounmpo’s future, the evolution of NBA positional play (highlighting Cooper Flagg’s debut as a point guard), and the sheer size transformation led by Victor Wembanyama and the Texas teams. The hosts blend rich NBA reporting with classic stories, adding historic texture to current events.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Warriors’ Dynasty: Are They Headed for a Graceful End?

Steve Kerr’s Contract Situation

• Steve Kerr will coach this season with his contract expiring at year’s end, making him technically a “lame duck” (11:03).
• Slater on Kerr’s Public Stance:
  “He is not, he will not leave the warriors for another NBA job...It’s going to either be they get to the end of the season and maybe it’s like step away from the game...he still thinks he’ll very likely be the coach of the warriors beyond the season, but it just has to go right and it has to feel right after the season.” (12:00)
• Warriors seem committed to not letting this “ending” be messy, learning from past dynasties’ awkward finales (14:07).

Is This the “Last Dance” for the Warriors?

• Compared to the Bulls, Spurs, Lakers, and others, NBA dynasties rarely go quietly:
  • “Nothing ends gracefully in the NBA...the Bulls didn’t end gracefully. Like Jordan is still bitter as hell. Like Magic caught HIV. Bird’s back went out...” —Vinnie (15:50)
  • Steve Kerr and Steph Curry seem determined to script a more respectful, harmonious conclusion (15:19).

Klay Thompson’s Departure

• Recognizes that Klay's exit was already fraught, but there’s intention for grace and honoring legacies for Curry, Kerr, and Draymond (17:02, 18:15).

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2. Giannis Antetokounmpo’s Future: Knicks, Warriors, or Elsewhere?

Shams’ Report and the Ripple Effect

• Recent buzz about Giannis’ openness to the Knicks led to wider speculation (21:38).
• Teams (incl. Warriors) quietly “registering interest” in what happens next. The Bucks are firm for now, but everyone is aware things could shift by the 25-game mark (21:38–22:45).

Could the Warriors Be a Destination?

• Warriors improved their asset positioning by resolving Kaminga’s contract early and making him trade-eligible (23:38).
• However, their trade assets aren’t the league’s best, and unless Giannis specifically wants to go to Golden State, their chances are limited (24:03).
• Slater:
  “If the Giannis thing were to materialize, if he would direct himself there, I think that's an important part of this.” (25:41)
• Consensus: Giannis will have control if/when the time comes to demand out. Several teams have better packages, and Eastern Conference may make more sense for him (27:36–35:24).

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3. The League Is Getting Big—Really Big

Wembanyama and Height Creep

• Victor Wembanyama now officially listed at 7'5", though Windhorst (Wendy) suggests he’s already taller and may soon be a legit 7'7".
  “I think we got a guy in this league who might be 7'7'', is what I'm telling you.” (56:35)
• Boban Marjanović, 7'4", admits to looking up to Wemby (56:25).

Texas Teams & The Size Revolution (59:05)

• Discussion of absurdly large lineups being possible:
  • Rockets: Steven Adams (C), Sengun (PF), Jabari Smith Jr. (SF), Thompson (PG).
  • Mavericks: Lively (C), AD (PF), PJ Washington (SF), Klay (SG), Cooper Flagg (PG).
• Not just a trend, but a paradigm shift:
  “Now big can equal versatile. And even San Antonio, if they played three small guards, that means you got three guys that can give Vic the ball. That's the advantage there in theory.” —Vinnie (60:38)

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4. Rising Youth and Positional Fluidity

Cooper Flagg as Point Guard (35:57)

• Mavericks debut Cooper Flagg as de facto PG; compared to rookie LeBron in “ball skills,” potentially more advanced in playmaking at 18.
  • “He's much better with the ball than LeBron was as a rookie.” —Perk via Wendy (36:41)
  • Flagg gets a year of college, enters as an 18-year-old, but is physically mature enough to defend at NBA level (44:13).
• Big guard/forward experiment is reminiscent of Giannis under Kidd in Milwaukee — may mean short-term struggles but long-term gain (46:14).

Comparison with LeBron & Kyrie Dynamics

• LeBron’s best teammate in terms of on-court fit was Kyrie, due to the ability to play with and without the ball, relevant as Flagg teams up with Kyrie (41:23–42:37).

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5. Old School Stories & NBA Culture

Historic Anecdotes

• Wendy, Vinnie, and Slater blend coverage with stories from Cavs-Pistons clashes, rookie LeBron hazing (39:43), Paul Silas’ locker room outbursts, and the infamous 2004 Pacers-Pistons brawl aftermath (47:30–55:52, 64:27).
• Missoula’s press conference awkwardness showcases how media-player-coach relations have changed (53:35).
• The personality and abrasiveness of earlier NBA figures (Silas, Artest, etc.) contrasted with today’s more scripted environment (55:07).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Kerr’s Contract:
  “The fact that he said I'm not even going to seek one and we're just going to wait and see until next summer, that raised the eyebrow a little bit.” —Slater (11:16)
• On Graceful Endings:
  “Nothing ends gracefully in the NBA...The closest thing, I think, to a graceful ending was probably Tim Duncan walking off in Oklahoma City when they lost in 2016.” —Vinnie (15:50)
• On Giannis’ Leverage:
  “As soon as the season starts, Giannis is in control.” —Vinnie (26:13)
• On NBA Bigness:
  “Small used to equal versatile, now big can equal versatile.” —Vinnie (60:38)
• On Cooper Flagg’s Skills:
  “He's much better with the ball than LeBron was as a rookie.” —Kendrick Perkins via Wendy (36:41)
• On Old School NBA:
  “That was Steve Kerr saying, I don't want to talk about Draymond Green. Can you imagine Steve just getting peppered by the media? I don't want to talk about him.” —Vinnie, on media relations (52:05)
• On Characters in the Modern NBA:
  “We don't have characters anymore. The coaches are cookie cutter. They wear the same...zip.” —Vinnie (52:37)

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Notable Timestamps

• 00:34–03:54 — Banter and team introductions, nickname origins
• 04:19–18:15 — Warriors’ transition, Kerr’s contract, dynasty finishes
• 21:38–27:36 — Giannis destination speculation, Warriors’ trade maneuvering
• 35:57–44:13 — Cooper Flagg at point guard, Mavs offensive philosophy
• 56:25–61:57 — Wemby, size revolution, giant lineups in the Western Conference
• 47:30–56:16 — Old NBA stories: LeBron, Cavs, Pistons, Silas, and others
• 53:35–54:54 — Missoula's awkward press conference moment
• 64:27–65:38 — Final old-school NBA stories; Ron Artest/Pacers-Pistons brawl aftermath

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Closing Thoughts & Takeaways

This episode blends rich insider reporting with historical context to illuminate the shifting NBA landscape—organizational transitions in Golden State, the long-game stakes with Giannis, the positional and size revolution in Texas, and the rise of wild-card young stars. The tone is conversational but steeped in deep NBA knowledge, with frequent detours into memorable league lore.

For listeners new and returning, it’s an episode that reflects both the state-of-play and the long memory of NBA culture—offering insight, analysis, and plenty of stories that showcase why the league is as much about personalities and eras as it is about stats and standings.

Transcript

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[Wendy]

Hello and welcome to HOOPP Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon out here on the west Coast. Later in the afternoon out east, which is where we're very happy for the first time to welcome in our new teammate Vincent. Vinnie Goodwill joining us from Detroit.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

What's up, guys? What's going on?

[Wendy]

Wendy, you've got that Vincent Goodwill. You got your government name on your. On your byline, but we all know you as Vinnie. I don't know what. I don't know how you want to present yourself to the ESPN world.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I haven't figured that out yet because Vincent is my daddy's name and I've never been to Vincent. So that's kind of.

[Wendy]

You say you've never been Vincent, your byline says Vincent. So I don't know what.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

But nobody calls me that like my mother doesn't. Nobody calls me Vincent, but my dad is Vin. Vince is the middle ground that if I meet you now, I might tell you my name is Vince, but you know me as Vinny because you knew me in my 20s.

[Wendy]

That's right. We won't say how old you are now because you could pass for late 20s. I feel like now the next guy we got joining us from Portland, Oregon, where he's with the Warriors. His name is Anthony, but nobody calls him Anthony except for his wife. I recently had breakfast with him and his wife and she kept saying Anthony. And it was just like. I was like, who are you talking about? We all call him Slater.

[Slater]

Slater. High school friends will actually call me Tony, but I'm surprised I just admitted that publicly.

[Wendy]

Really? You're not a Tony. You are.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

No, he. No, he is a Tony. Like his hair. That hair is. Is the hair of a Tony.

[Slater]

Also get Ant sometimes just the shortened aunt or, you know, my wife will send me like an emoji of the, you know, the ant emoji.

[Wendy]

He's more of an ant than he is a Tony Slater.

[Slater]

I do feel like everything professionally is trending towards just like, even if I go on air or something, it's like Slater.

[Wendy]

It's just the way yeah, we should just put Slater one name. Here's the weird thing about Slater. Vincent. Vince. Vince. Is that he's from California, but he went to Oklahoma State and now he talks with a drawl.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I was trying to figure out, should we call you A.C. slater? Like you know, from Saved by the Bell? Is that.

[Slater]

That's what Barry Trammell you mentioned? You know, everything's coming full circle here. Barry Trammell, when I worked out in Oklahoma, would call me A.C. slater. Cause he's like the legend of nicknames out there.

[Wendy]

There's something about Stillwater because he went to. Slater, went to Oklahoma State. And this golfer, you know, it's my world, Victor Hovland, who is from. I think he's from Finland. From Finland or Norway. Anyways. From one of the Nordic countries. He went to Okie State. He loves Stillwater. I think he still lives there. And he speaks in a drawl. He speaks like he's from Stillwater.

[Slater]

You want to hear an opposite story? I'll try to make it quick. But I. When I was at Oklahoma State, there was a walk on basketball player named Mason Cox. He was probably 6 foot 10. He's from Texas, went to Oklahoma. When he was there at school, he talked like somebody from that area. He then went and became a superstar Australian Football League player. Like the guy they'd kick it up to and he'd go jump and make catches. You should go watch the highlights. I think he was like, maybe even like MVP of the league. He. I then see him eight years later at a Warriors practice because he's one of like the superstar Australian football players visiting. And he has a full Australian accent.

[Wendy]

Crazy. Crazy. I don't to say, Vince, you sound like you're from the Midwest. Thank God. All right, so guys, welcome to the Hoop Collective. Hope to have you on a lot this season. The collective wisdom of our. My two new teammates here is extensive. And Slater, I want to start with. I know you got a story coming out later this week about Steve Kerr.

[Slater]

Yeah.

[Wendy]

On. Well, actually was it media day because of the whole Kaminga thing. I don't know what excuse the warriors gave why Steve Kerr and Mike Dunleave didn't talk. But they didn't talk till later in the week. So I guess it was more training.

[Slater]

Camp me to give you. I mean the Mike Dunleavy not talking was clearly not. They wouldn't even hide it. It was related to the ongoing Jonathan Kaminga negotiations. The Steve one. Their excuse was. Well, typically Steve doesn't talk on media day. He's going to talk, you know, basically after the first practice. And I will say he did talk technically before they agreed with Kaminga because they hadn't agreed with him by the end of the first practice.

[Wendy]

By the way, did I miss the story of why Jonathan Kaminga changed his number to number one?

[Slater]

Yeah, it was his high school number. It wasn't available when he got to the warriors and he actually said he almost changed. I think it was like 57. He was. Because he. One of his good. He doesn't want to be double. He doesn't want to be double zero anymore. But he was going to wear like 55 or 57 because his really good friend Ig, he's like his photographer. He's at every game, wore it when he. I think when he played like high school football. And it was going to be kind of be an inside joke, but then they decided IG was the one that told him. He's like, please don't go out on the court wearing number 57. So he went to number one.

[Wendy]

Who was number one when he got there?

[Slater]

Damien Lee, I believe, had it, I think. I believe if I remember correctly.

[Wendy]

All right, well, anyway, it's a family affair.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

You can't. You can't take the brother in law's number, right?

[Wendy]

That's right.

[Slater]

Damian couldn't wear his normal. Like, he wanted 42 was like, you know, Nate Thurman and there were some others. So he had to go to something completely different.

[Wendy]

What number is he? I'm not good on numbers, like all these.

[Slater]

Fifteen. I know. I'm not either. I'm like, on here, I think he might have gone 15.

[Wendy]

I know Steph Curry wears 30.

[Slater]

Yeah.

[Wendy]

I know Draymond wears 23. After that. I can't help you.

[Slater]

Well, Seth Curry wears 31. And there was the joke, you know, coming in if Seth would try to buy 30 from. From Steph, and he's like, I don't think the NBA would like that if, you know, we. We made Steph curry switch to 31.

[Wendy]

Real talk.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

They would actually. They would. Everybody got to buy new jerseys.

[Wendy]

Yeah.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Money.

[Wendy]

That's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. Like, real talk. That would be. So I remember when LeBron changed his number when he was in Cleveland, he wanted to change his number to number six, and he had to file the paperwork by a certain date because the NBA, he wanted to do it the year before. And the NBA was like, hey, man, we already got the jerseys made. Like, you can't change your number this year. You got to wait Till next year. And then you got to do it by, like, February 1st. So I remember, like, LeBron was trying to decide would he change his number? And even though I don't care about numbers, I was, like, following this story, and I remember, like, stalking him down, like, the night of the deadline and saying, hey, man, did you file the paperwork to change your number, number six? And he was like, yes, I did. You're going to see LeBron number six next season. He said that right as he walked out the door. Next season was in Miami, but he was wearing number six. He was wearing number six. He never got to wear number six for the Cavs.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

So don't you remember that, Wendy? That was the. Was that the game? Tell me if I'm right, because I'm, like, going in the crates. Was that the game where Dwyane Wade dunked on Anderson Virajao and there was something with Julius Irving that is like a TNT game. And LeBron after the game was like, nobody should wear number six because nobody. You know, I'm going to wear his number six because of Dr. J or something like that.

[Wendy]

No, you have the opposite. It was in Miami. He was. It was in Miami. And just before Jordan bought the. Well, I don't know if we have the same memory here. Okay, you could be right. He wore number six, I thought, because of Bill Russell, but he. Maybe here's the thing. Maybe when LeBron came. We've gone way off the beat here, but, okay, it's preseason still. LeBron went to play for Team USA his rookie year. After his rookie year, okay, that Was that disastrous. 2014, went to Greece. And of course, you know what number he wore for Team usa? He wore number nine, because that's what number the. Jordan wore. And then it was a freaking disaster. He didn't play that much. He quarreled with Larry Brown. Like, it was like. It was a terrible experience. If you watched the. The Dream Team video. The whatever. Not the Dream Team movie, but the movie Redeem Team. Yeah, the Redeem Team. He talked about it in there, how miserable he was in 2004. So when he came back for Team USA in 2006, he switched to number six. He's like, I'm not. I'm not. That was so bad. I'm going to switch it over. And actually, in 2008, and this was in the Redeemed Team documentary, Wade. Dwayne Wade took number nine, and out of respect, as an homage to Jordan, shaved his head when he showed up, because Wade didn't play in 2006. Cause he was hurt. And in 2000. It was 2007. Anyway, Wade showed up in 2008 wearing number nine, and LeBron switched to number six. And that's where he started wearing six. Now, it may have been for Dr. J. You may be right there, Vinnie. I can't remember that.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

It's something. No, you might be right. It may not be Dr. J. It may be Bill Russell. It was something.

[Wendy]

Were you at that game of Miami? So here's the thing. Before Jordan bought. Before Jordan bought the Hornets, he came to a Cavs Heat game. And if you remember, Pat Riley retired number 23 with the Heat. He. No Heat player ever wore 23, including LeBron, because he retired it for Jordan. If you go to the Heats arena, the Kaseya center, and look up in the rafters, Dan Marino's jersey's retired. I don't know why, and I know why, but it's weird that a basketball team retires jersey and Jordan's number are up there. He retired number 23 for the Heat. And whether it was Jordan in the stands or whatever, LeBron went on a Jag after that game that nobody should wear number 23 ever again. And the next year, he changed his numbers. That was part of that year. He changed his number, signed the paperwork. The next year, came to Miami, wore number six. But when he went back to Cleveland, war number 23, then he tried to give 23 to Anthony Davis. And I don't know, somebody said the league wouldn't let him or AD didn't want it. I don't know. That's our numerology report. I hope you enjoyed it. Anyway, Steve Kerr didn't talk at the first day. A couple of days of media, first immediate day, and then the first day of practice later, he basically announced he intends to coach this season without a.

[Slater]

Contract, without a contract extension. He has a contract.

[Wendy]

A contract extension? Yes, he has a contract for this year. Did that surprise you and what do you make of that as you look at the warriors going forward here?

[Slater]

Yes, I was surprised he was so transparent publicly that he's not even seeking one, because this happened a few years ago where he was on, you know, you would call it the lame duck season, which he would say, you know, he's more comfortable than your normal coach going into a lame duck season for a variety of reasons. But they were having ongoing negotiations that season, and it got done. I think it may be February where he signed an extension. So for him to not only say, hey, I wasn't surprised, he said, I'm not concerned and I'm not going to like, let it become a storyline. But the fact that he said I'm not even going to seek one and we're just going to wait and see until next summer, that raised the eyebrow a little bit. Especially because, look, we all know Steph has two more years on his deal. Jimmy Butler has two more years on his deal, Draymond Green has one and one, you know, he has a player option, but basically two more years on his deal and the presumption was he would want it lined up with that. But the fact that he didn't. I think there's a few reasons for it and we can go over it. But the one thing I will say is you mentioned, you know, I have a story coming out with Steve later this week. It's about Steve Kerr and Steph Curry's relationship and within it, he clarified with me he is not, he will not leave the warriors for another NBA job. This isn't, he's not leaving it open ended because, ooh, the spurs is appealing to him or this or that. It's going to either be they get to the end of the season and maybe it's like step away from the game or what I think is more likely. And he as he's kind of hinting, it's like he still thinks he'll very likely be the coach of the warriors beyond the season, but it just has to go right and it has to feel right after the season. But as of right now, I would definitely predict this is not his last season with the world.

[Wendy]

Okay, so Vinnie, this is not last dance energy, I think is what I'm trying to feel.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Well, he went through that and he knows how exhausting that is. Like Phil Jackson on the last year, Jordan on the last year, Pippen on the last year, Rodman, like all those guys were free agents like these guys. It's not really like that. And I'm not sure there's this and Slater, you tell me if I'm wrong. I don't sense that there's the same organizational fatigue that even in 2019, the last year, Kevin Durant, like that seemed very fatiguing. This season or even last year, like that energy didn't seem like, man, this is a slog, can't wait till this is over to get to the next thing. I don't think they're fresh as daisies, but I think they're all curious and I think that's why maybe Steve is sort of leaving his options open. The option of coaching the warriors beyond this year.

[Slater]

Yeah, I mean, Steph's called it a two year window. So I think they're almost talking if you, you know, the Last Dance would be maybe a two year walk towards that. And then the other thing, I think it was buried within his. His answer that, that you're talking about. But he is of the belief that this era for the dignitary should end as, like, gracefully as possible. It already kind of has.

[Wendy]

Well, that's Last Dance. That's Last Dance inspired right there.

[Slater]

Yes, 100%. And, you know, his history is, you know, kind of mixed into all this. But like Klay Thompson, like, the fact that that didn't end the way that, that they would have hoped, like Klay Thompson's final days at Golden State, I think that was informative to him. When Draymond Green a couple years ago was going through the suspensions and, you know, the mess with the league and, and all that, you know, one of the very influential conversations that I think got Draymond Green back on the right path was Steve Kerr went to his house and apparently they, like, were even kind of crying, you know, talking about, like, he wanted Draymond, for it to end well for Draymond with the warriors and with the NBA and that, like, there was so much more being beyond and that it was important for. For them to just, like I said, go out gracefully. And I think part of why he is taking his contract negotiations this way and saying the end needs to go this way is because I think he's trying to set an example that, like, this, like this needs to be, you know, a, you know, very polite farewell. And he's gone. Like, I don't think he's number one. I don't think he's getting fired. Number two, when he is not coaching the words, I think they're going to have a press conference, like, announcing it, like, in a celebratory manner, basically. And I think that's him setting the stage for that.

[Wendy]

Well, Vinnie, you spent a lot of time in Chicago, and I don't know if you were at the game the night when the warriors were in Chicago a couple years ago. You were probably there, Slater, when they honored one of the Bulls teams. I don't know.

[Slater]

I was there.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I know what you mean.

[Wendy]

Jerry Krause's widow, I mean, she wasn't getting booed. Jerry Krause was getting booed. And I thought it was a relevant thing that, you know, the warriors were there, I assume, ostensibly. So Steve could be a part of it.

[Slater]

He Was.

[Wendy]

And it was at halftime, right? And Steve was out there. Nothing. And now, you know, Jordan and Pippen aren't talking.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Nothing ends gracefully in the NBA. When you look at modern NBA history. Not the hijack you. Wendy.

[Wendy]

No, please.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

The Bulls, the closest thing, I think, to a graceful ending was probably Tim Duncan walking off in Oklahoma City when they lost in 2016. What was that? Game 5 or Game 6? And they gave him a standing ovation at the end of that.

[Slater]

I was at that every covering the Thunder.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I'm sure you were. Yeah, every. But every great dynasty. The Bulls didn't end gracefully. Like Jordan is still bitter as hell. Like Magic caught hiv. Bird's back went out. Like, when you think of the dynastic group, even the Kobe Bryant Lakers, that they went out with Andrew Bynum going like, putting his forearm in the chest of poor J.J. berea and Phil Jackson punching Pau Gasol in the locker room, like, none of this. I think it's honorable for Steve Kerr to say this is going to go out gracefully, but when you got Jimmy Butler and then Draymond Green in the locker room, you think they gonna be concerned about going out gracefully. Has he met them?

[Wendy]

Well, it's already not ending gracefully because, like, you know, where is the Clay relationship right now? Slater frayed.

[Slater]

But that's. That's more pointed towards the top of the organization, the management, how the contract stuff went then at the Steve Kerr, Steph Curry, Draymond aspect. But. But you're right, I think. But this is Steve saying his. His chapter is going to end gracefully. And I think he's very much of the belief that Steph Curry's is going to, you know, and again, that that may mean a bad playoff exit in the final year or whatever. Like, it's not like he's saying we're going to win a title and then walk away, but it's more like Steph will be. Have a celebrated final chapter with the Warriors. And I think he has really tried to redirect Draymond back to that after there's been various points where it seemed going haywire. And I. I can remember being at the press conference after the Jordan pool punch in the preseason, being like, this might be it, you know, for. For Draymond and. And now he's part of the. You know, I'm writing this story about Steph and STEVE and they're 12 years together, and he tries to rope Draymond in the conversation because it's 12 years with Draymond, and there's kind of a belief that he's going to kind of ride it out in this chapter. And they've been reinvigorated by the Butler edition, the Al Horford edition. So, again, I don't. I'm not predicting a title, and it's going to end like, storybook Disney, like. But I do think there is intention to make it end in a way where they're honoring what they were.

[Wendy]

Yeah, you know, I'll never forget the story. It was during the 22 finals where they were coming. They were ahead three, two, and they'd come back for game six. They ended up closing out game six in the night, night game. And before the game, Draymond tells the story that they. When they flew out to Boston from San Francisco, that they had happened to sit at the. You know, the NBA jets have, like, four seats together with a card table between them, basically. Yeah, typically, it's for card play. There's a couple of them. But, yeah, I can't. I couldn't hang on those in those games. But apparently, it just so happened that that particular flight, the four seats were Bob Myers, Draymond, Klay Thompson, and Steph Curry. And the four of them had been there for the whole run. You know, there had been some guys come and go. You know, Sean Livingston was obviously a core member, but he had retired. Kavad Looney has been there for most of it, but I don't, you know, those were the core guys. And Bob was talking to him at the moment, like, how rare it is to be able to stay together for this long, to go through what they went through, to go through the highs of 2014, 15, the lows of 2019, and then the rebuild where Steph played five games in one year. And now they're back on top and they win. And I asked Bob about it later, and he's like, yeah, he's like, me and Draymond were talking about it. Seriously. Steph was just politely listening, and Clay was sleeping. It's not as a storybook as it sounded, but, you know, within, like, months, Clay and Bob were gone, you know, and so in all honesty, I mean, Steve would be a part of that group, too. He wasn't sitting there. Steve is obviously a part of that group. But in the case of Myers, Myers was around even longer. Myers drafted Clay, drafted Draymond. So. But it is. It is rare that it would end that way. More HOOPP Collective podcast after this. As you know, managing maintenance, repair and operations is never easy. But for the ones who rise to the challenge, Grainger has your back. From professional grade products you can count on to fast, dependable delivery, they're there to help you keep things running smoothly. Plus, our technical product specialists are here to help answer your toughest questions. And because Grainger knows safety is always a priority, they're committed to being your partner and protecting both your people and your facility. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by.

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[Wendy]

Okay, so to shift to this year's warriors, when Shams story came out about Giannis and the Knicks, I my thoughts immediately turned to Golden State because I know that Giannis said, I'm here for six or seven months. It was kind of his way of saying, without saying that he's going to play this season in Milwaukee. I think that's, I think those were the words, that that was the message he was trying to send. And then he'll take a look. The Bucs, from what I understand, as you can imagine, when that story came out, you would do this too. The Bucks got some phone calls. You know, hey, I know about the talks with the Knicks. Are you interested in having talks with us or to at least register? Hey, listen, if you revisit that, you know, call us. And I heard the Bucks said, hey, appreciate it, but, you know, we got our team, we're going, so there's nothing there. But let's be honest, like if you asked for a few, if you had trade discussions in August, you know, maybe they'll have a great season. But if you had trade discussions in August, you know, let's reevaluate things. That's why Shams keeps talking about 20, 25 games like he's not saying that to create chaos in Milwaukee. I think he's saying that because he think that's a possibility. And so yeah, the Knicks could do something. But I thought about the warriors and you know, one of the whole things as we went through the Kaminga, I didn't really go through much of it at all. I just kind of sat back and watched. You lived and died with that Slater. But the one thing that I thought about was, you know, at the end when the dust settled, they got him to give up the no trade clause that he would have had on a normal one year contract. And not that they did that just for Giannis, but they emerged on the other side of it with the ability to trade him come mid January. And so while I understand that we're going to talk about the warriors and how Jimmy Butler looks and you know, Pajemski had a big game the other night and all this kind of stuff, am I wrong? I. No one's told me the war, you know, it's not, it's not like. So I've been told that this is.

[Slater]

Because I've talked to warriors people in the aftermath, you know, because you guys know like the league was talking about Sean's story and the revelations of it in the aftermath and they poured cold water on the idea that, that there were some like hot Giannis destination. But I will also say they were kind of pouring cold water on the Jimmy Butler idea around this time last year and them being a fit with Jimmy Butler and then they went 12 and three out of the gates. I was like, you know, this team's fine.

[Wendy]

They're playing 11 guys and yeah, remember.

[Slater]

That it was like the greatest 12 man rotation. D Anthony Melton had the greatest six game run in NBA history with the warriors. But you know, I think they didn't, as you mentioned, they didn't just get the, the coming of contract because they have some far off dream that Giannis will, will definitely come to them. They know like they, they can't really win a bidding war for Giannis if every team in the league went after him. They don't have like the best young asset base, the most draft capital. Now they're middle tier for two reasons. Number one, they haven't traded away, you know, their, their capital. Last year in the Butler trade they only gave one first rounder away and they made sure it was that last draft, it was the 20th pick in this previous draft. So they weren't you know, entangled with, with the Stepien role. They have a top 20 protected 20, 31st out the window for the Chris Paul Jordan pool swap. But generally they have pretty good draft capital. And if you were, you know, the Bucks, for example, like, the warriors have a pretty appeal. Like, their future picks are pretty appealing because it's going to be the post Steph Curry era. Like, those could be very good picks. So I think they could get in the mix, but my vibe from them is there's not some strong belief or plan that, like, you know, this is going to happen. Right now, internally, it's about this. Like Jimmy Butler, Steph Curry, Draymond Green and Al Horford, you know, like aged for some, trying to, to, you know, make one or two last competitive runs here. If the Giannis thing were to materialize, if he would directed himself there. I think that's an important part of this.

[Wendy]

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, yeah, Vinnie, that's the thing. Like the thing that's unsaid about Giannis. I mean, I don't want to trigger the Bucks fans, but the dude listened watch their summer and then like, let the Bucks have talks with the Knicks. I don't know what. I don't know what you want me to say, but if Giannis gets to next summer, wants to be traded with one year on his contract, he's going to have control. So if it is the Knicks, you know, there's a chance it's going to be. That's where it's going to be. But because he's only going to have one year, he's going to be able to control it. Kind of like Durant just controlled his situation.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Look, as soon as the season starts, Giannis is in control. You don't even have to wait until next summer. I think it would be bad form if the Milwaukee Bucks were to send the greatest player in their franchise history between he and Jabbar. Whatever you want to say, and I think it's Giannis, but just because of the length of it, you don't send Giannis antetokounmpo to a place he doesn't want to go. Like, clearly when they had a quote unquote, exclusive negotiating window. I've only heard of that one time in my life. You know what that happened?

[Wendy]

When.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

When billionaires are talking to billionaires about selling a team. You don't hear about exclusive negotiating windows when you're talking about franchise player going to the New York Knicks or any other team. So there's a genuine level of respect and wanting to do right. Giannis to the Bucks. The Bucks with Giannis if we are to handicap going back to Slater's Point, if we're to handicapped, the places that Giannis would be open to going to, the warriors will be in Tier one, whether they have the assets, like you said, the draft capital and everything else. But if Giannis says, get me to place X, y' all figure it out, then they'll figure it out like, okay, let me ask you this, Wendy. Let me ask you this, Wendy. Who's more likely to be itchy after 25 games, Giannis or the man with the old man injury in Los Angeles?

[Wendy]

Yeah, man, that's the thing. Like, the thing about LeBron is I know he's come in, he handled media day really well because he's a total expert when it comes to handling those situations. Rich Paul said what he said on the record about where LeBron was in his career, and Rich Paul nor LeBron have walked that back, either on or off the record. Now, I don't think it's something that's at the front of the mind. I think that there's. The Lakers are, you know, they feel good about this team. You know, Luca, he's going to play his first game tonight. We're doing this Tuesday. He's going to do this his first game tonight in Phoenix. But Luka averaged 35 in euro basket. He's gotten a nice rest. He's in good shape. They're going to run the whole show around him. If anything, without LeBron playing, it's going to open the door for Austin Reaves. Austin Reaves, when he played last year, without LeBron, I think Austin Reaves averaged like 28 and 9 because it opens up the door for him. Like, I think the Lakers could do okay without LeBron in the early going over the long haul. I think they're going to need their best player. But LeBron hasn't walked back those comments. Now, I think there's a chance Luke is going to get off to a great start. And, you know, for all I know, he'll be throwing lobs to deandre Ayton and, you know, Marcus Smart and Vanderbilt, you know, Vanderbilt was out at for most of last year and Gay Vincent was out. Gay Vincent has looked really good in the preseason. For all I know, Gay Vincent will be very good off the bench. Austin Reaves will thrive, you know, playing, you know, getting the ball in his hands more. Luka will be right back to average in 30. And when LeBron comes back, maybe the Lakers are, you know, 12 and 4 or something like that, or, you know, 10 and 3, and things are going fine and that will never be thought of, but, you know, if they're underachieving after 25 games. And the thing about the Lakers that is important to realize, I think they've got seven or eight guys who are free agents after this season. Now. Some of them have options, you know, like, you know, Austin Reaves is not picking up his option. Austin Reeves will be a free agent, but we'll see. Maybe Marcus Smart picks it up. He's probably not gonna. I'm sure he and. And Ayton are planning on not to, but there's eight free agents on this team, you know, like, and the guys who are under contract, I mean, Baron Vanderbilt's under contract, but he's not. I mean, like, they literally could move off of everybody on this roster in a year. And so, like, there's. There's nothing precious on this roster. Even LeBron. Yeah, they don't want to go it that way. They want him to go out with, you know, LeBron out, drop the mic or whatever. But yeah, I, you know, I'm just saying LeBron hadn't walked back. Those, those comments that Rich made and, you know, I'm sure they put some thought into those comments before they were made about what the future is.

[Slater]

One of Vinnie's points, you know, calling the warriors in Tier one of, like, the honest destinations, I think I would say tier two, because I think part of the seam story is there was one team in Tier one, right. I mean, it seems clear that, like, the Knicks kind of were the spot he is and was looking at. But I think we all know there's like a level of flirtatiousness that has happened over the years between Giannis and the Warriors, Giannis and Steph. And I remember I was at All Star Weekend this last All Star in San Francisco. The warriors just opened this big sports bar. Have you all been to the Splash outside Chase Center?

[Wendy]

No.

[Slater]

So it's new. It opened All Star Weekend. Steph had an event there, like Gentleman's Cut Whiskey. It's like a three floor sports bar. And he had like the.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I didn't make that. I didn't make that. That cut. I got an invitation, but I didn't respond in time. So they told me I did that.

[Slater]

He didn't respond in time. It was, it was kind of a who's who in that.

[Wendy]

Is this a. Is it like real sports in Toronto, that kind of level?

[Slater]

Yeah, kind of. You know, there's huge, you know, TV's everywhere. And like I said, three floors and clearly Steph, you know, doing his event had, I think, the third floor.

[Wendy]

Yeah, that's how real sport. Real sports. You know how it is, Vinnie. Yeah, yeah, real sports in Toronto, there's like multiple level. There's these enormous screens. It's kind of built like a club. It's got multiple levels, you know, and have a different view.

[Slater]

Kind of mirror society in some ways.

[Wendy]

Yeah.

[Slater]

So as we're there and, you know, again, it's All Star weekend, so, like, everybody's in town, but the staircase is kind of in the middle of the room. And Steph arrives and it's a big deal. And he goes up even, like, said, know, he. Like I said, he's doing it for his whiskey brand. He's like saying something to the crowd. Draymond comes in and he's up there. And then the only other NBA player that, that we saw come in and go up the stairs was Giannis. And it was notable at the time and, and, and has been noted, you know, I remember in the aftermath of it. But, you know, they have, like, kind of agency ties together a little bit, too. But I've always thought that, that, you know, the pairing on the court has always made a lot of sense and still would at this moment. But you've almost felt like Giannis would have had to force that move, like, already or a year or two ago for. For it to really.

[Wendy]

Yes. Wasn't ready. I mean, Yanis, there's been a process for him to get ready. Look, I mean, I. I've seen these interviews with the. With Doc, and, you know, he's like, you know, you know, you look at the lineups they're playing, where they're playing shooters with Giannis, like, they're like, oh, we're going to play fast and shoot threes. I'm like, cool. Like, that's what Bud. Bud didn't. They didn't really play fast, but they. When. When Mike Budenholzer was a coach, they were top five and three point attempts every year, and they've slid way to the bottom 10 or, you know, I think they were 19th or something last year under Doc. So the idea that they're going to shoot a bunch of threes is not new. Like, they're going back to what worked, except for their team, in my view, isn't as good as it was four years ago. So, you know, Yan, like, look, actions are. He looked at the roster and said, let's have an exclusive negotiating window or whatever he said. But real talk, real talk, whether it's New York or somewhere else. If you're Giannis and you're like, okay, I'm going to make a choice of where I'm going to go spend the back of my prime, the Eastern Conference makes more sense, you know, because that's the thing about the Warriors. The warriors can be great this year and finish fifth.

[Slater]

Well, not only that, I mean, let's be honest, at the Western Conference, if you're looking, if you're Giannis and you're looking at the next half decade to like seven years, Houston, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, they've got way more draft capital that would appeal to the Bucks. So you would think, like trades would be easier to make and also you would think a much longer Runway of contention.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

It depends on what's most important to Giannis. My general thing with NBA players, and I think it more or less played out with Damian Lillard and I feel like he's the most glad, glaring example. More recently. Usually these guys wait a year or two too long before they decide, okay, get me out of here. Because there's so much tread on their bodies and we. I'm not saying this. I hope I'm not breaking news here. Giannis's durability has been an issue for the past few years. Like he hasn't played 82, 82, 82 games. Like, I don't have his, his stat sheet up, but he's been in the 60s and with the style of which that he plays, it would behoove him to get to a situation that would lessen. Like those end to end plays where he has to play hard on both ends of the floor for 35 to 36 minutes a night. He needs to go somewhere. If he's going somewhere, I'm not leaving him out of Milwaukee. I'm not saying that there's a situation that means he doesn't stay, but I'm saying if he were to leave, I would think that he needs to go to a situation that is easier on his body. That's why I'm not sure if it's actually the Eastern Conference.

[Slater]

Would you put it as simply as he should go somewhere where his co star is younger than him and not older than him?

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I mean, amen Thompson looks mighty good in Houston once.

[Wendy]

Well, yeah, I mean, the other thing is Giannis is ready to have a conversation about the tax differences between California and Texas. Like, I'm not saying that would be a driving force, but he will know. He's attuned to that kind of stuff. We'll keep an eye on it. While we're talking about the West, Cooper Flag started at point guard sort of for the first time on Monday night. I don't remember who they played. Charlotte anyway.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

No, no. To play Charlotte over the weekend.

[Wendy]

Yeah, they played Charlotte twice already. Anyway, keep talking.

[Slater]

I'll let you know.

[Wendy]

All right. Jackson's. Jackson's always got my back. I just don't give him credit. Like, he was like, they played the Jazz. Jackson's like telling me, yeah, yeah, you know, Victor Hovland's from Norway, bro. And he's saying, Al Horford's number 20. I just don't give him much credit as I should. Cooper Flag started a point guard in this game. And they may start d' Angelo Russell just because. For various reasons. But Cooper Flag, this is the way that they want to play. And this way they're going to play. They're going to play this gigantic lineup at times where, you know, you have AD at the 4, basically with lively or Gafford, and then you're going to have, you know, depending on who they want to play at the Wings, but they're going to have size.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

And.

[Wendy]

And, you know, I'm watching Cooper Flag. He is so skilled, it's crazy. And what I was on NBA Today today with Perk, and Perk and I were watching the highlights and Perk was talking about. He's like, man, he is much better with the ball than LeBron was as a rookie. Now, first off, I'll just say Cooper Flag did get a year of college, although they're about the same age because hooper flag's still 18. LeBron turned 19 midway through his first season. But that said. And LeBron recently talked about this. I think he was talking with Steve Nash on his podcast. He was talking about how he was totally unprepared to play point guard as a rookie because he hadn't played point guard in high school. You know that they had skilled point guards at the high school level. And he, of course, handled the ball a lot. And he is, of course, right. They decided LeBron was going to be the point guard at the back then they played an eight game preseason and the Cavs played like six preseason games.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

And realized his first game was in Detroit. I remember that. I was in college. Wendy, not today.

[Wendy]

Did you go to that game?

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Absolutely not. I was broke. I was in college. I just told you.

[Wendy]

You know what they did? They played a prank on LeBron that night. So, by the way, you know, LeBron's first three, four months, he didn't get treated Great by his teammates.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Wait, you mean Ricky Davis, the guy who said, I just thought he was here to help me score? You mean that guy didn't treat him well?

[Wendy]

Yeah, I've talked about this before. Like, Darius Miles was cool with them, but, you know, there was only so much. So they hazed him a little bit. And one of the things that they did that night in Detroit was they were. They were getting ready to come out. And you remember at the palace, they had those narrow little tunnels in the corners. It was really small compared to what your average NBA vomitory, as they call them are. And they said, hey, Rook, we want you to have the honor of leading us out on the court. And so he's like, all right, you know, and so like they, you know, they break and they go on the court and LeBron goes running out in the court. Nobody went with him. So he gets out there with the ball and he goes to laid up a turnaround. The court is empty. They're all the back laughing at him. That's what happened on that night in Detroit. But they played like six preseason games and realized that their point guard situation was a mess. And so they basically put LeBron in as point guard for like game seven and eight of the preseason. Like, okay, rook, you go ahead. And he led the league in turnovers the first two months. Yeah, he had moments like he sniffed triple doubles, but he was. They were awful. And he was. And he was terrible. So when Perk says that, like, he's right. Cooper Flag doesn't have the offensive. He's probably a better shooter than LeBron was, but he doesn't have the offensive game. LeBron did. But in terms of like being a 6, 8, 69 guy who can distribute and play, Perk is right. That Cooper Flag is much more like. Perk says that he reminds.

[Slater]

LeBron seemed to make like flashier passes and have more of like a innate feel for like playmaking.

[Wendy]

Yes, for sure. No, I mean, LeBron was dynamic, obviously. Um, but there was a lot of possessions that didn't go well.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I mean, what if that was a different. That was a different NBA too, Wendy, where for sure you could really body hand check and LeBron's. LeBron's body was advanced for an 18 year old, but not advanced for 8 or 9 year pro. Like the name that I heard during summer league. And I was looking at people like, y' all on crack. But some of the Mavs people were like, he's six, eight, he's athletic, he handles the ball, he makes the right Pass. Who do you think of? And he was like, who do you think of? And I'm like, if you're telling me the profile of that player, I'm saying Grant Hill. And he said, exactly, Grant. He's going to be our point guard. They made this decision very, very early in summer league that he was going to be their point guard and they felt like they would have enough sort of shot creation offense that you won't have to sort of rely on him all the time, but you just throw him out there because he's so skilled.

[Slater]

But what's different than the LeBron situation and what needs to be remembered here is he can be the point guard for now, but Kyrie Irving just signed an extension. Like, Kyrie Irving is part of this team's.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

But it's Kyrie Irving a real point guard. Like, like in a point guard, in the way that we think of.

[Slater]

Does he play the position, high usage, like. I know what you're saying, but I don't. When Kyrie Irving comes back, it's going to be like, oh, he's the two Cooper Flex one. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he's wrong.

[Wendy]

I agree. But look, in my view, the number. The best compatible teammate that LeBron has ever had was Kyrie. Because, you know, and I mean, it's not like a clear. You know, there were moments where he and Wade were transcendent. Obviously there were moments when he and AD were impossible to deal with. But the guy who he played with, who best fit his skill set was Kyrie. Because you need a guy who can handle the ball and, but is also awesome off the ball. And so that when LeBron is tired. Because one of the things LeBron perfected, especially in his Kyrie years, was resting during the game and he was very happy to let Kyrie go ahead and cook at various times. It's just that LeBron ate first, which, you know, did irritate Kyrie a little bit and contributed to his desire, his desire to leave. He, you know, his first weeks with Kyrie, he was up as, you know what. Because Kyrie, he didn't. He felt Kyrie was hogging the ball and you know, that got. They got off to a rough start. You know, Kyrie didn't, didn't sign to play with LeBron in Cleveland. You know, Kyrie signed his five year extension thinking it was going to be his team. And then LeBron arrived two weeks later. But anyway, I think that can work.

[Slater]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this experience.

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[Wendy]

I would just say by the way, you know you talk about LeBron physically, this is the thing about flag. Most 18, 19 year olds who come in the league, no matter how skilled they are, and you know Grant Hill came into the league after a four year incredible college career. They can't physically compete, right? So like I don't, you know, I don't care if Kaman Maluak is swatting six shots a night, he is going to get pushed around because he is physically not able to. You know, you put him up against the men in there, he's going to get pushed around. And most 19 year olds do. I don't care. Even if they're athletic freaks. LeBron came in and physically was able to compete as an 18 year old with one exception. Vinnie. One guy got up into LeBron and that was Ron Artest. Ron Artest. That was a night and they played him twice in the first like six games. And I remember Paul Silas, rest in peace, him saying like LeBron King. They played our test the first time and our test shoved him around. But that's the thing about Flag is that he is going to be bigger. Especially if he plays the one, he's going to be bigger and physically able to compete with most of the guys that are on him. Now I will say this. Typically when you have a young guard and you rely on a young Guard. People who listen to podcasts know this. They've heard me say this about, you know, typically it means losing. You know, one of the easiest ways to tank is to play young guards. So if the. If the. If the Mavs are going to do that and they're going to say, okay, we're going to have Cooper be our primary point guard. In a Western Conference where you have a bad 10 games and you're in trouble, they're going to pay a price for that. But over the long haul, I think it's the right decision, which is probably what they were talking about with you, Vinnie, which is why they made that mind up and why they. They didn't prioritize getting a, you know, more of a replacement for. For Kyrie.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I mean, well, think about it like this. Jason Kidd was the coach of the Bucks when he slid Giannis over to play point guard. I think it was year three, and his whole thing was, yeah, it's going to be rough now, but it's going to be much better for him and us down the line. Now, Jason Kidd went around to reap the rewards of that, and look at what Milwaukee is going to do now. Giannis is going to be there, de facto point guard this year again, because they don't got another one on the roster now. It's funny, Wendy, you want it? One day you got to take us down memory lane to talk about the Eric Snow, Paul Silas story.

[Wendy]

That was in Detroit. That was in Detroit.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I don't want to talk about no Eric Snow.

[Wendy]

Well, so after LeBron's rookie year, where their point guard situation was rough, they went out and traded for two point guards. They traded for Jeff McGinnis and they traded for Eric Snow. They traded for Eric Snow the following year. And Eric Snow was, you know, of another era as a point guard. The guy, you know, couldn't make a 12 footer, but was extremely strong defensively, a great leader in the locker room. You know, how Slater, you know, how Andre Iguodala was kind of known for when it came to the media, he would always challenge the media, put the media in uncomfortable situations, like that's what he was known for.

[Slater]

I do recall a few times where that has happened.

[Wendy]

I just saw Andre in Abu Dhabi two weeks ago. He was out there, the head of the players union. Now, Eric Snow was kind of like that. When you ask him a question, he always come back at you.

[Slater]

I believe they played together in Philly, Andre and Eric Snow. That might have been where Andre got it.

[Wendy]

Maybe, you know, Eric Is today Tuesday? Why are you asking that? What do you mean by that? But anyway, so Eric Snow was headstrong, okay? And he was built like a linebacker. His brother was actually an NFL linebacker. And so it was this night, it was his night in Detroit. And look, Detroit effed up the Cavs a lot back then, Vinnie. You know, shocker. They were big and strong and they were the big dogs, you know, and, you know, especially after they got Rasheed. And you remember Rasheed, the one night raked Zydruna so Gauskas over the head and cut his head open. Bled all over the court. And it was a home. And home they played the next night. And nobody, everybody was afraid to give retribution to Rasheed. Rasheed got ejected for flagrant two because he sliced Ilgauskas head open. And the Cavs were so petrified of him that nobody would go do anything. Not even LeBron would do anything. The game was in Detroit where Z got cut. The next night it was in Cleveland. And people, you know, held up signs that said she must bleed. I remember that. And nobody did anything until Ilgauskis, tired of waiting around in the third quarter, body slammed him and knocked him over. And he stood over him and said some stuff to him. And I asked Rasheed after the game, I said, what did he say? He's like. He's like, I don't know, man. He was speaking in his language. I have no idea what he said. And then I went and asked Z. I go, hey, what'd you say to him? And he goes, he said he was. You said you were speaking Lithuania. He goes, no, I wasn't. I was speaking English. So anyway, the Pistons got up into the Cavs in those early years, right? And they were having a game up in. In Detroit, and the Pistons were getting into them. You know, Chauncey Billups was bodying them up and Lindsey Hunter, as Mace used to say, and you know, Jason Maxill, you know, he just had these Sheed and. And Ben Wallace, he just had all these physical guys. In fact, really, the. The entire. Everything with that rivalry changed when Ben Wallace went to the Bulls because then the Cavs weren't as afraid of the interior and Sheed was slowing down a little bit. Anyway, so there's night. The Pistons are having one of these games where they decide they don't want the cavs to break 70, which had happened a few times. And they were just being very physical. And Silas was so frustrated. And at one point, they couldn't get the ball over half court because the Pistons Were applying pressure and Silas called timeout in the backcourt. And there was only, I think, a couple of seconds left on the shot clock. They had to get the ball over. And apparently in the huddle, and I'm sure there was stuff leading up to this in the huddle. Silos was like, you know, you gotta pass to the front court. And Snow was inbounding the ball. And by the way, this is in the old days where we sat next to the court. I could hear all this. And Snow, they couldn't get the ball inbound. And Snow passes to the backcourt. And they got. They got an eight second violation. And Silas was absolutely apoplectic, okay. And so he pulled Snow out of the game immediately and cursed him out on the way to the bench. And Snow gave it back to him. So he kicked Eric Snow off the bench. He said, go to the locker. Get your ass to the locker room. This is like, I don't. Were you at this game, Vinnie?

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

No, I wasn't. I just remember. I remember the post game of it.

[Wendy]

So he kicked. He kicked him out of the. Kicked him out of the locker room. But you have to understand the way Silas talked. We call him the grizzly Bear. And so the post game comes out and naturally we want to know about Eric Snow, about kicking the guy off of the bench. And Silas is like, I ain't gonna talk about it. So he gets asked about it again. He's like, I told you I ain't gonna talk about Eric Snow. And somebody brought it up again. And Silas exploded and he was like, how many times I gotta tell you I ain't gonna talk about it. My speaking Chinese. And then he went, bleep, Jesus, bleep. And they suspended Eric Snow for the next game. Yeah.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

So that was Steve Kerr saying, I don't want to talk about Draymond Green. Can you imagine Steve just getting peppered by the media? I don't want to talk about him.

[Slater]

This actually did kind of happen in Detroit, of all places, a few years ago when he kept getting asked about the centers. He exploded at our. Exploded is too strong. But he went after Mark Medina, the legendary Mark Medina for wow.

[Wendy]

Who's mild mannered.

[Slater]

Very. And he. And then he apologized the next day at practice for his response.

[Wendy]

Why don't we have.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

We don't have characters anymore. The co. The coaches are cookie cutter. They wear the same quarter, quarterly, zip.

[Slater]

I think we got characters like Joe Missoula is a character. Right.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

It's another word I would use for Joe Missoula. And Character, ain't it?

[Wendy]

Well, that's a guy who's not afraid to make the media uncomfortable.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

No, he's not. No, he's not.

[Wendy]

I saw.

[Slater]

I saw some video today. It sounded like the. He was in a Celtics coaches against Celtics media basketball game.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

It was 57 to 4 or 57 to 4.

[Slater]

Celtics coaches won and I can imagine.

[Wendy]

And Missoula. Who did Missoula want to see bleed more? His fellow coaches or media members? Oh, that's the question. The media, by far, by the way. Like, one of the more remarkable moments of a press conference of this decade that I was in was before game one, I think, of the final. Vinnie, did you ask the question? You were in there. I know you were in there.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

No, I know what you're about to say, and yes, that was my question.

[Wendy]

Well, you tell the story.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Okay, so it was between the day between game one and game two and Slater. It was this thing where Missoula's on one side, Jason Kidd's on the other side. The first time two black coaches are in the finals since like 1975. When I say the easiest off day story to write when you ain't got nothing else to write about. I go talk to Jason Kidd, he's fine. I go talk to Adam Silver, he's fine. Like, all I gotta get left is Joe Missoula. Joe, this is the first time there's been two black coaches in the NBA Finals since 1975. Is that any significance to you or. And he says, I wonder how many of them were Christian coaches. I want to say, Joe, all of them were Christian coaches. Joe, all of them.

[Wendy]

He said, I wonder how many are Christian coaches. And Vinnie, you could hear the lights, the fluorescent lights in the room. After that.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I had passed the mic because I would have come with a follow up, like. Yet we're not in a. No, I was going to say something. We're not in an anti Christian sort of society here. So that's not any. Oh, and I lit him up in print the next day and then we wound up having a conversation a couple days later and we were fine.

[Slater]

But yeah, old school.

[Wendy]

But that's the thing. Like Silas, like he. Silas didn't care about making people uncomfortable. I mean, and players too. I mean, he. He stuffed players into locker. That's. That's your thing. Like physically.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Ira Noble.

[Wendy]

Well, the iron Noble. I feel like I'm telling Jackson, if I told the Ira Noble story. I feel like I've told that story before, but I don't know, maybe I should because it's a preseason.

[Slater]

This is a Central Division like you know, history lesson.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

You hip hop mother bleeper, get back here.

[Wendy]

I mean I told the story when Silas passed away a couple of years ago, but yeah, he in front of the media cursed out Ira Noble and chased him out of the locker. When I say chase, I want to be clear like you think it's a figure of speech. Chased a player out of the locker room. No, no. Ira came running out of the, running out of the locker room with half of his clothes on and Silas was on his tail chasing him, chased him out of the locker room. That's how we, that's how they rolled 23 years ago.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

I'm going to get you to. We're going to this. The Wendy Goodwill Slater pod is going to be a fun pod. The Bon Temp is a McMahon where they're bitching at each other. They're angry. They are so mad. Slater, we not kicking it like that here.

[Slater]

We're just going to talk Central Division memory.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

No, we're not doing that. No, we're not going to do that.

[Wendy]

I was going to say that. Cooper flag playing point guard, which I assume there's a good chance of him doing on espn. You know, I don't know how many. You know, it's a Wednesday night so you know, there's you got Max or you got Cooper flag. You can watch. I would, I'm going to check it out. Even though Luka I don't think is playing, he decided not to play. He had to pick one end of a back to back.

[Slater]

Is Kent State in the Mac.

[Wendy]

Kent State just won Mac game over the weekend.

[Slater]

They're part of action. I know, you know you can do YouTube TV now. You can combo box it. Don't worry about it.

[Wendy]

Yeah. But I will just say, you know, Dylan Harper this week he had a game where he had eight 11 points and eight assists. And it's kind of hard to get a read on the, on the spurs because de' Aaron Fox isn't playing. But you know, Dylan Harper is going to get a lot of time too. And that's again a young guard. By the way, Victor dunked on Monday night while he was standing on the floor. And I don't know if you noticed this, but when Victor, when Victor came, when I was in France, when Victor was in his gap year, when he was playing to get 19, they all said he was seven foot five. I came back saying he's seven foot five. He shows up and he says he's seven three. And they put him on the. On the roster seven three. And I was like, I don't know how tall he is, but they all said he was 75 in France. So, okay, two years, he's 7 foot 3 on the roster. Boban was in here today. Boban was doing NBA today. Boban, 7 foot 4 in. In bare feet. He wears shoes. So I'm going to give him 7 5. And Bobon said that when he met Victor, he was looking up to him. Okay. Now Victor has grown and the spurs have updated their roster. Victor is no longer listed at seven foot three. He is listed at seven foot five. Okay, but I don't think he's seven foot five. I think he was seven foot five when he came in the league, and I think he's now pushing 7 7. I'm going to tell you that Bobon can still. We have a rim here in the studio. Bobon can still grab the rim on his tiptoes. Victor was holding the rim last night on his bare feet. Or I mean, on his flat feet. He had shoes on. So I'm just telling you, I think we got a guy in this league who might be 77 is what I'm telling you. But there's a young point guard there that is very exciting. There's a lot of excitement around Dylan Harper. And so what we're going to see with these Texas teams, we're going to see enormous size because, you know, with Fred Van Vliet hurt, they're going to play Amen Thompson a point guard. There's going to be times. IME Odoka has already said it. There's going to be times where he's going to play Stephen Adams at center. He's going to play Sengoon at four. He's going to play Jabari Smith Jr at three and select your two, whoever that they may be. And they're going to put Amin Thompson at center. And you're going to have Kevin Durant. Durant.

[Slater]

Kevin Durant at three, Jabari at two, Amen at one. And you're talking.

[Wendy]

Kevin Durant could be your two, right? I don't know why I had a brain fart there. We. Okay, and now. Now you think about Dallas, right? Now, Dallas can put Lively at center, AD at four. You can have PJ Washington at three, you can have Clay at two, and you have Cooper at one. And you could even switch up some of those wings, have Najee Marshall in there, depending on what you're doing. That's crazy talk right there. And you know so you can see. And then, you know, meanwhile, down in San Antonio, they can play. They may play lineups where they play Dear and Fox, Dylan Harper and Stefan Castle together or Devin Vassell for the other two guys. And they can cover up for that because they might have a guy who's legit 7. 7 playing in there. And that's all to deal with the fact that the champs can play a lineup where they roll out a seven foot two guy as their four and a seven footer as their five. So, like, they. They mess around.

[Slater]

This Western Conference, that area of the country is going to be a fascinating stylistic clash just nightly this year, for sure.

[Wendy]

And there's a reason why the other night the Nuggets had Valencianis and Yokos and Jokic out there together, because they're getting ready to face some lineups where if you don't have extreme size out there, you got problems.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

And the thing is, you just named four teams in the west that can play like that. So it's not like it's just one. And you can make due for a ninth like you have to. Your roster construction has to account for this stuff. Like now. Not that it's long, not. He's long gone. That Rudy Gobert, Carl Townstein don't sound so unappealing anymore if you're Minnesota. Granted, Julius Randall's there and Carl isn't, but it seems like. I wonder if this is like the. Nor not the norm, but it's not going to feel so windy in Slater. It's not going to feel so abnormal when you see big, versatile lineup, because small used to equal versatile, now big can equal versatile. And even San Antonio, if they played three small guards, that means you got three guards or guards, you got three guys that can give Vic the ball. That's the advantage there in theory.

[Wendy]

Yeah. Look, the Clippers could put. I mean, I'm not saying they're going to play this a lot, but if they had to, they could put Lopez, depending on who they're playing against, they could put Lopez and Zubac out there. I mean, that's one of the reasons Slater why that Horford signing was so important. Not that Horford can go toe to toe, but like, as you know, this is a trend that goes against what the way the warriors have been built. So that Horford signing and his versatility, now you sort of see the vision for sure.

[Slater]

I mean, and part of it is like they're trying to hold off Draymond Green's aging process as long as possible. And part of that is not making him the center against these Goliath Western Conference matchups. But also what was interesting, you know, I covered the Warriors Rockets first round series last year, and going into that series, you know, Sengun and Adams together had worked really good. But part of the warriors prep told them that we'll only do Sengoon and Adams in the rare minutes Steph Curry is off the floor. And that was the how the series started. That was how they predicted the series was going to go. By the end of that series, Ime Udoka didn't care if Steph Curry was on or off the floor. He was playing those two bigs and it was working. They were bashing them on the glass. They were trying to do defensive tricks to still be able to guard Steph Curry lineups. But that to me was, you know, as we talk about the league's paradigm shift, as I covered that series, the people around it were like, this is like, you know, the two big lineups kind of working against the staff lineups to a point where it's not just some, you know, pet lineup that you can throw in for five minutes of the game. It's like, no, you can just kind of bash whatever team you want with these lineups.

[Wendy]

All right, guys, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed Vinnie getting me to tell old stories because that's one of my favorite things to do. I don't know, people might be turning it off, going, jesus Christ, he's telling us to write from 2005 again.

[Slater]

We're going to get you.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

They're going to like it. They're going to like it.

[Slater]

Next time it's going to be pit, like, I need a Tayshawn Prince story. I need.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

You know, I gotta take. I gotta taste on Prince.

[Slater]

I'll tell you right now. I'm sure you got a few. When Wendy said he. He just casually mentioned that LeBron and Larry Brown were hating the. The word was quarreling. I appreciated that word. I was like, I might want to open that box up a little bit at some point.

[Wendy]

Larry Brown suspended LeBron during Team USA. LeBron, who. Who is famous for being on time. If you're. If you easiest way to piss LeBron off is to be late, to be messy or late if you're messy in the locker room. If you're late, you make LeBron wait. You got a problem. LeBron showed up late, which may have something to do with him hanging out with Iverson on that team. That's another story. LeBron showed up late. Larry Brown, I mean, I Say suspended him. Like, he didn't. He, like, didn't start him or something. I can't remember. But. And they just didn't play him, which drove LeBron crazy to be sitting on the bench. They're, you know, they're getting beat by Puerto Rico and, you know. Yeah. LeBron's like, why don't you have me out there? You know, which I'm not sure what it's been able to save that team. But I'm just saying that, you know, he didn't, you know, he's on the record is how much he didn't like it. So. And then. And then Dan Gilbert tried to hire Larry Brown.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Yeah. During the playoffs.

[Wendy]

Yeah.

[Slater]

See, I can. I can keep winding this string up for you, too. I just got to mention a few names and you get y' all back.

[Wendy]

So here comes another story. So this story, is this a very old story that I've never told, and I hope it doesn't get me in trouble.

[Slater]

Redacted.

[Wendy]

All right, I enjoyed it. Next time we'll talk about 2025, 26 season and not 20, 20, 25, 6 season. 20 2005, 2006. Ron Artest was terrorizing him. Terrorizing him.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

He terrorized an entire arena a year later.

[Wendy]

You got that right. And probably. Well, that's another story. By the way, that night that. That went down, the Pacers crushed the Pistons. Artest was a demon in that game. That was the thing. Like, that was the Pacers had sent the message that they went into the palace and then it went a little sideways. Wes was there that night too, by the way.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

He was carrying our test. He was carrying our test off the floor.

[Slater]

So was Nick's coach, Mike Brown. He's the first coach into the crowd to chase down Ron Arts.

[Wendy]

Yeah, he pulled him. He pulled him out. Yeah. Yeah, Mike. Mike's suit got ruined because he had three gallons of beer poured on it that night. Anyway, all right, thank you to Jackson for producing. Thank you to Vinnie and to Slater. Thank you for watching. Listening to the Hoop Collective throwback edition. Slater was not born. And we will talk to you later this week.

[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Foreign.

[Wendy]

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[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

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[Wendy]

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[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

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[Wendy]

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[Vincent 'Vinnie' Goodwill]

Level up. For More on the ESPN app or at stream.espn.com sign up now.