Any Solution For NBA Tanking? + Ja Morant’s Trade Market

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode: Any Solution For NBA Tanking? + Ja Morant’s Trade Market
Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Brian Windhorst
Panel: Tim Bontemps, Tim McMahon
Produced by: ESPN, Omaha Productions

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Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into two of the NBA’s most fraught current storylines:

1. The ongoing prevalence of tanking in the NBA, exploring why it persists despite league efforts, the teams most actively engaged in it, and potential reforms;
2. The trade market dynamics for troubled stars, specifically Ja Morant, and parallels to Trae Young's recent situation.

The podcast maintains its trademark candid, mildly sarcastic tone, balancing detailed analysis with insider banter and notable quotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Game Recaps and Oddities (00:31–04:15)

• Brief mention of notable NBA games, upsets, and odd scheduling — e.g., Spurs’ tough back-to-back travel.
• Bontemps criticizes league scheduling:

  "I thought it had to be a 24 hour gap between from start to start of the games. And I was told it's either 22 or 22 and a half. There wasn't an exact answer." (02:21)

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2. Utah Jazz, Washington Wizards, and the "Picture of Tanking" (04:15–08:32)

• The hosts dissect what Brian calls “the picture of tanking,” sparked by a viral image from the Jazz-Hornets game: Jazz execs and owners looking disengaged while their team suffered a record loss.
• Teams like the Jazz and Wizards are intentionally keeping their top-protected picks through subtle (and not-so-subtle) means, benching healthy players for “rest,” especially before crucial matchups with teams in similar tanking territory.

Quote:

"The picture of tanking."
– Anonymous NBA executive texting Brian Windhorst about Jazz front office during a blowout (04:59)

• Discussion underscores the reality that for some franchises, preserving draft position outweighs on-court competitiveness.

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3. Why Tanking Happens: Incentives & Draft Realities (08:32–18:12)

• Windhorst and the panel clarify they don't blame teams; incentives are "baked into the system."
• The current crop of coveted draft players (AJ DeBanza, Darren Peterson, Cameron Boozer, Caleb Wilson) means teams are desperate to keep their picks.

Jazz/Wizards Specifics:

• Top-eight protection on picks incentivizes both franchises to prioritize losing enough to guarantee draft retention, often at the expense of on-court product.

Quote:

"If you think this is bad now, we're in January. It's going to get so much worse."
– Brian Windhorst (09:02)

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4. The NBA’s Failed Anti-Tanking Reforms (14:18–21:16)

• Flattening lottery odds was meant to discourage losing, but may have backfired — now mid-lottery teams "leap up" past more profoundly bad teams more often, compounding the incentive for playoff-irrelevant teams to crash deep for protection.
• Examples cited:
  • Spurs’ luck in jumping the lottery line despite mediocre records
  • Mavericks, Wizards, Jazz all manipulating protection zones

Quote:

"The fact that tanking is a smart strategy is the NBA's biggest problem. I don't know how to fix it."
– Tim McMahon (14:18)

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5. Solutions (or Not): Radical and Practical (18:12–25:28)

• Relegation, while oft-discussed by European observers, is “not coming to the NBA”—it’s antithetical to league's egalitarian goals.

Incentive Tweaks Proposed:

• Lottery odds based on wins post-All-Star break instead of losses (so tanking teams push to win late).
• Equal lottery odds for all non-playoff teams.

Quote:

"Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome."
– Brian Windhorst quoting Charlie Munger (21:37)

• McMahon suggests docking luxury tax payouts for chronic tankers.
• Panel agrees: as long as high picks are the only reliable path to getting “game-changers,” teams will keep tanking.

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6. The Double-Edged Sword of Tanking (25:27–32:00)

• Player development is often a euphemism for tanking—throwing young guys into non-competitive environments breeds bad habits and a losing culture.
• Salary cap realities and the necessity to draft superstars keep the tank incentive strong.
• McMahon on the struggle for coaches:

  "It's a brutal situation for everybody involved." (25:42)

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7. The NBA Cup: A Possible Partial Fix? (23:29–30:38)

• The NBA Cup is discussed as an effort both to create new "engagement" and to counteract tanking—though not directly tied to the draft as a solution so far.
• Windhorst notes successful international analogues (like the Tottenham parade for winning Europa League), but also the differences in league structure and culture.

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8. Ja Morant’s Trade Market Saga (30:38–48:39)

• Windhorst transitions ("Alright, so John Morant..."), stating Ja is "available" on the trade market, but Memphis's return prospects are bleak.
• Parallels to Trae Young: both current all-stars, both distressed assets with injury and/or behavior risk, both likely to net "underwhelming" returns (rotation players, bad contracts, minimal picks).

Quote:

"The combination of pain in the ass, injury prone, not that good anymore and big contract is a bad one."
– East NBA executive on Ja Morant (34:32)

• Internal situation is “untenable”; relationships are strained; both designates and all parties are ready to move on—pointing to a likely trade before the deadline, though the panel reiterates that the Grizzlies’ leverage is low.

"The Grizzlies have to trade Ja. You can't have the toothpaste out of the tube and then, you know, have to deal with the situation. He cannot be on the roster after February 6th. It will be an absolute mess."
– Tim McMahon (37:01)

• The group traces team-building parallels with other franchises’ star trades (Thunder trading Paul George and then Russell Westbrook, Jazz with Rudy Gobert, etc.).
• Grizzlies could end up with multiple medium lottery picks, but getting a foundational, transformative player via draft remains as elusive as ever.

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9. Realities of “Rebuilding” and the Ceiling of Nice Prospects (44:04–47:35)

• Even successful development pipelines (Memphis’s depth, Spurs with Keldon Johnson, etc.) hit a ceiling unless a “stud” is found.
• Memphis’s best hope is to “get lucky” in the lottery and pair a future franchise player with their many solid role/future starter types.

Quote:

"It's like saying Kelton Johnson's a nice piece, Devin Vassell's a nice piece. It ain't going to matter until you get a stud. They thought they had a stud and now they don't."
– Brian Windhorst (45:57)

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10. Jalen Brown’s Ref Rant and Celtics Fallout (51:04–59:00)

• Jaylen Brown, after a poor 4th quarter, goes off postgame on officiating and is expected to be fined.
• Bontemps summarizes his struggles:

  “He was horrendous in the fourth quarter of this game. It was not because of the refs...” (52:45)

• Panel ridicules the idea of bias, notes Brown averages more frees than ever, and highlights the connection between style of play and foul drawing.

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11. Quick Hitters — Around the NBA (59:10–end)

• Rockets’ slide and Shingoon’s injury woes.
• Nuggets praised for surviving without Jokić, staying tight in the race:

  “It's just been a remarkable stretch for Denver to pull these wins out with a skeleton crew and a bunch of them." – Bontemps (64:10)

• Short banter about various stat leaders, injury notes, and playoff opportunities.

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Most Memorable Quotes

• "The picture of tanking." – anonymous NBA exec (04:59)
• "If you think this is bad now... it's going to get so much worse." – Windhorst (09:02)
• "The fact that tanking is a smart strategy is the NBA's biggest problem. I don't know how to fix it." – McMahon (14:18)
• "Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome." — Windhorst quoting Charlie Munger (21:37)
• "They're a better team with Cam Spencer playing point guard than John Morant." – McMahon (47:01)
• "It's like saying Kelton Johnson's a nice piece, Devin Vassell's a nice piece. It ain't going to matter until you get a stud. They thought they had a stud and now they don't." – Windhorst (45:57)
• "I just don't see where the. I don't see where any kind of strong offer is coming in for him because frankly I think if there had been a strong offer somewhere, he wouldn't be on the team today." – C/Bontemps on the John Morant market (41:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:34–04:15: Cold open, travel and schedule quirks, setting up the tanking discussion
• 04:15–08:32: Utah Jazz tanking, viral sideline photo, Jazz/Wizards pick protection explained
• 08:32–18:12: Draft class importance, structural incentives, why tanking persists, “tanking timeline”
• 18:12–25:28: Solutions and reforms debated (lottery odds, NBA Cup, anti-relegation)
• 30:38–48:39: Ja Morant’s market, Grizzlies franchise crossroads, serial star asset management
• 51:04–59:00: Jaylen Brown/Celtics rant, context, and league-wide foul-drawing comparison
• 59:10–end: Rockets’ struggles, Nuggets' resilience, final scattered NBA news & sign-off

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Tone & Language

• Candid, sometimes exasperated, laced with dry humor and sarcasm.
• Frequently uses “inside baseball” NBA references and a conversational back-and-forth.
• ‘Doctoral thesis’ and ‘crawl over glass’ imagery emphasize how fiercely teams chase even marginal draft odds.

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Summary Takeaway

The NBA’s tanking epidemic is far from solved. League reforms have only shifted (not dulled) the incentives, and both teams and fans remain locked in a push-and-pull between immediate competitiveness and the quest for the kind of transformational player that’s (almost) only available at the top of the draft. This state of affairs breeds oddities, soul-draining stretches of losing, and awkward player movements — with Ja Morant’s market collapse the latest, sobering illustration of how quickly star value can vanish.

Memphis, Utah, Washington, and others will keep straddling the line between “the right thing for the franchise” and what’s worst for the spectacle, all while the league gamely searches for a better way.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello. Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening. Joining us from New York City, Tim Bunteps.

[C]

Hello, everybody. I want to know what this howdy pennant is in the background of our new our guy's new fancy setup in his new house.

[B]

Yes. Joining us from new Diggs in Dallas is band McMahon.

[D]

Howdy Partners. That actually was sent to me by one of our crack SportsCenter producers, Jessica Showbar, aka Show Busy. She got it. I'm gonna have to check with her. She got on one of the stops from the 50 States in 50 Days thing. Wyoming perhaps. Somewhere, if not there, somewhere similar.

[C]

Somewhere with a rodeo.

[D]

Yeah, somewhere where they say howdy.

[B]

All right, well, we say howdy here.

[C]

Yes, we do.

[B]

Do they say howdy in Utah?

[C]

I don't believe so.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

I can't say I've ever been greeted with that salutation in my trips to Salt Lake City.

[B]

All right, well, it's Sunday night. There's a bunch of NBA games tonight, several that came down to the wire. Jamal Shed with a game winner in in Toronto to beat the Sixers. Bad loss for the Sixers, by the way, Bontemps. They were up by four with 20 seconds left and lost it.

[C]

They were up by four, 20, 19 seconds to go. Had a comedy of errors that led to overtime. Jamal Shed hit the shot to tie the game at the end of regulation, sent it to overtime. Then they were up by four, under two minutes to go in overtime. Blew that lead. Could have been in fourth place in the Eastern Conference Monday morning going into another game in Toronto against the Raptors and instead they are not. And Toronto got a nice win.

[B]

The Timberwolves had a victory over the spurs by one point with Ann Edwards hitting the last last minute game winner. I don't know how much time was.

[C]

Left when he made about 15 seconds. He dusted, dusted. Victor Wembanyama got a nice runner off the glass. It was really nice move. I mean, the Spurs. I was at the spurs game Saturday night in Boston. 8 o' clock tip Eastern in Boston. They leave, they get to Minnesota. Think they get to their hotel between 2:30 and 3 in the morning on Saturday, I guess Sunday morning and then they have a game at 6 Central. I know it's brutal against the Wolves. That is a. I actually check with the league because you can, you can imagine the spurs were less than amused at that. Back to back Saturday, some of our friends in the front office were there at the game and I was talking to them about it. I actually checked with the league because I thought it had to be a 24 hour gap between from start to start of the games. And I was told it's either 22 or 22 and a half. There wasn't an exact answer. So the fact that it was 23, it was illegal back to back, but it was about as tough A1 as you can have given the travel and everything else.

[B]

Yeah, well, they got an hour but they didn't feel it so long.

[C]

They were 19.

[D]

They blew a 19 point lead. Let's not play too much violin music here.

[B]

Anyway, a couple of good games.

[C]

Obviously they'd like to pull the game out, but there's some extenuating circumstances there.

[B]

I gotta tell you. One of the. Probably the thing that I've been thinking about from this weekend though is a photo that a league executive sent to me today. It came from Andy Larson, the one of the writers who covers the salt the Jazz for the Salt Lake Tribunal. Friend of the pod, good man, longtime NBA writer. It was a photo that he posted on his X account on Saturday night. And the photo was in the fourth quarter of the Jazz home game against the Charlotte Hornets. And the photo was not of the action, it was of the sideline.

[D]

Oh, it was of the action.

[B]

And Will Hardy, their friend of the pod Jazz coach, was leaning sort of sitting against the scorers table with his legs crossed. He was sort of leaning back against it. And Danny Ainge, the team president, had come down from his seat in the stands and was sitting next to Ryan Smith, the owner of the Jazz, having what looked like an animated conversation during the game. The final score of this game was 150 to 95. It was the worst loss in Utah Jazz history. I guess the New Orleans Jazz lost the game by 56 at one point. And what this executive sent. He sent me the photo that Andy posted and he just wrote the following text. The picture of tanking.

[D]

Oh no.

[B]

And you know, like I don't. The thing about it is I really want to talk about this now because I don't to talk about it in the spring when this is going to be a daily conversation in the NBA. Because here's the thing. The tanking. There's going to be more teams tanking because the Mavericks are going to start tanking.

[D]

I think the Mavericks are going to tank organically.

[B]

Okay, whatever.

[C]

They're now, what, 4 and 15 when Anthony Davis doesn't play, McMahon 500 team.

[D]

When AD plays, and 4 and 15 when he doesn't.

[C]

And he will not be playing for quite a while now.

[D]

I don't anticipate he plays again this season. That's not yet been determined.

[C]

But at minimum, he ain't playing for a couple months at the absolute earliest.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, he's. I mean, they. I saw the photos of him. He's wearing a full sling.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And let me ask you this.

[C]

If.

[D]

If AD doesn't play, why would they bring Kyrie back this season?

[B]

They should not. It's. It's not even really. It's not even.

[C]

I mean, neither one of them should play again, regardless.

[B]

Okay. So. And I'm going to tell you something, guys. I don't think that the Grizzlies are looking for a player in return for John Morant, which we'll get into later. I don't think they're like looking for a player that's going to have them shoot up their rankings to try to make. Or I guess they're. They're in 10th place right now. Stay in.

[C]

Let's set that to. Let's set that till later. That's, I think, a different. That's a different part.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

But your point is the Grizzlies might be in that tank line. And if that's the case, I've got some advice for Zach Kleiman. Get JA healthy and back on the floor. They're 6 and 12 when Ja plays this season and 500 when he doesn't.

[C]

Well, well, listen, listen. That, that we got to get into ja. Right. But if we're going to get there.

[B]

In a minute, I want to talk.

[C]

But I mean, if we're going to do.

[B]

Situation that's developing first.

[C]

Well, that's what I'm saying. If we're going to talk about this topic, right. There's two teams to talk about. We've talked a lot about Utah. Okay. We've talked about Utah ad nauseam over the past few weeks. Cause this has been going on for a while. They won some games early like they have the last couple years. They're flirting with keeping their pick.

[D]

It's year three of pick protection.

[C]

Yes. Well, the Washington Wizards are doing the Exact same thing.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Now, it is hidden a little bit because the team got off to a very bad start, but they won some games recently. They now make this Trae Young trade. Trae Young had a quad contusion, was not, you know, was on his way back from this knee injury. It was a two month injury. He was back from it. And now it's, well, Trey's knee is messed up. We got to get him healthy. We'll see where he's at. And again, for all the talk about the Jazz and their top eight protected pick, which it is, the Wizards have a top eight protected pick that if it ends up ninth or lower, goes to the Knicks. And guess what? The Wizards are not going to give up that pick no matter what. So whatever they have to do between now and April 15th, they're going to do to keep that pick, just like the Jazz are doing. And it's, they're going to be the two shining beacon examples of this issue that has repeatedly hung over the league over the past few years. And, you know, I, I mean, we've been talking about it, it feels like for a month already, Brian, and I think we're going to be talking about it for another three.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I don't, I'm not going to get into the intricacies of what's going on. And just to be clear, like, I'm not arguing that the Jazz and Wizards shouldn't be doing this. I'm just saying, like, I'm denoting that it's happening. I mean, when you talk to, when I. Look, I am not a draft expert, okay? But from, from the folks that I've talked to, there's four guys people are excited about. Maybe you can argue there should be five, there should be six.

[C]

I think I would actually say the number's higher, but it's at least that many guys. It's a very, very.

[B]

For the sake of argument, say that there's four and correct if you think I'm wrong, AJ Debanza, Darren Peterson, Cameron Boozer, Caleb Wilson, maybe there's another. But the point is Utah and Washington need to finish with one of the four worst records to 100% guarantee they get their pick and maximize their chance of getting those four guys. I don't even blame them for what they're doing. What I'm saying to you is you think this is bad. Now we're in January, it's going to get so much worse. So in this, in this particular game that the Jazz, that the Jazz tanked. Lowry Marketen was ruled out due to rest. They did not have a game the day before, they did not have a game today. So there's no back to back.

[D]

It'd be well rested.

[B]

And so you would say, well, why would they have him rest against Charlotte at home?

[C]

Why would they do that?

[B]

Charlotte had the exact same record as Utah.

[C]

And by the way, where are the Jazz this week?

[D]

Dallas, for a baseball series.

[C]

A baseball series in Dallas against the Mavs. You want to talk about a tankoff? Oh boy. There's going to be so some maneuvering that's happening.

[D]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[A]

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[D]

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[A]

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[B]

I actually think, you know, because I don't like to entertain the theater of the hypothetical. Like, you know, I respect people that come up with these like seven point plans on like how to fix the All Star game. You know, here's my doctoral essay on why there should be 60 games or 41.7 games or whatever. Like, I respect all that. That's not feasible. It's not, it's not feasible. You know, like, you know, like people who are like their draft should be abolished. I appreciate your, your, your, your, your, your, your work. I'm sure it's right. You know, I'm sorry. Or good for you, Whatever.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

But one thing I'm going to tell you is that as I see the way teams react to get, you know, single digit percentage points advantages in the draft, it is now crystal clear to me that the NBA cup must be tied to some sort of draft reward. Not any other reward, not monetary, not, you know, playoff reward.

[C]

I don't like that. I like Big Man's idea of the ultimate tiebreaker.

[B]

No. Nope. Because I can document with my own doctoral thesis all of the things that these teams do materially to even move up two points in the draft. It is.

[C]

I hear you.

[D]

But you can't give good teams a lottery.

[C]

Yeah. The issue with you, the issue with doing that.

[B]

You're missing my point. I don't actually argue. My point is, is that these teams crawl over glass for percentage points in the draft. The inherent everything else is not. They don't take seriously the inherent problem.

[C]

We have here, right, Is you've got a system where in the NBA in particular, getting a game changing high level player, a Darren Peterson, a Cooper Flag, a Luka Doncic, a Victor Wembanyama. Like in the NFL for example, you can build a team a lot of different ways. In baseball, even though we have seen teams drive the car all the way in the ditch for years because they just have a straight system where if you lose the most games, you get the most money in the draft. That being said, you can build a baseball team in a lot of different ways. In the NBA, while we're in, we're getting to a harder cap system and there's a bit of a flatter talent base now and you can maybe construct a high level team in different ways. We'll see how the playoffs play out this year. At the end of the day, the overwhelming evidence is to be a championship level team in the NBA you have to have one of the five to 10 best players in the sport on your team and maybe two of them. And the best way to do that, and for probably 2/3 of the teams in the league, the only way to do that is to get them in the draft. So.

[D]

Or to get lucky because Denver did it with the guy who was picked.

[C]

In the second round, but they drafted him. I mean, yeah, you're not always going to draft them with the first pick. I be the first to say the draft is an exact science. But if you look at the best players in the sport, almost all of them, many of them, not almost all of them at this point, but many of them are with the team that drafted them or a team that traded for him one year in like shit, right? So you have a situation where we all can sit here and agree the Wizards are doing the right thing, the Jazz are doing the right thing, the Nets last year and this year are doing the right thing like these teams are, are doing the right thing. But it's a situation where the incentives are set up to where there are a lot of teams that are very bad and have a lot of incentive to be very bad. So the question is, is there a way to change those incentives?

[D]

All right. And that's where the league is trying. The right thing for these franchises is a very wrong thing for the league. And I firmly believe that the fact that tanking is a smart strategy is the NBA's biggest problem. I don't know how to fix it. They're searching for ways.

[B]

Well, there's certain, okay, what's over the last 25 years our sort of adulthood. Now McMahon's could be debated who's what's been the best run NBA team?

[C]

The Spurs.

[B]

Okay. Spurs have not made the playoffs since 2018. Okay, I will list you the best run NBA teams draft picks. Okay. 2018, the last year they made the playoffs. Lonnie Walker. 2019 they drafted Luka Shamanic and Keldon Johnson. Those were picks 19 and 29. Lonnie Walker was 18. 2020 they drafted Devin Vassell. He's turned into a good pick but he's, he's a role player.

[D]

So is Kelton Johnson, but go on.

[C]

I mean Kelton Johnson was a great pick at 29 and device a good pick at 11.

[B]

Right, but they're still not. We're not making the playoffs, gents.

[C]

Right, sure.

[B]

And they didn't 2021, Josh Primo. We're not even going to go there. 12th pick, no doubt.

[C]

That didn't go well.

[B]

2022, ninth pick this year they got three firsts. Okay. This is. They're going to be their year. They're going to, they're really into their rebuild. The ninth pick they took Jeremy Sohan. But the 20th pick they put. They took Malachi Branham. St. Vincent St. Mary High School. 25th pick, Blake Wesley. How are we doing?

[D]

Not great.

[C]

That's an zero for three.

[B]

Okay, these are picks nine. 2025, 12, 11, 1929. Oh, look what we have here. 2023, number one pick, Victor Wembanyama. 2024, good choice. Number eight, number four pick. They traded number eight, Stefan Castle. 2025, number two pick, Dylan Harper. Who's got maybe the best looking future in the league now. Is it because the best franchise, best run franchise in the league is crushing it in the draft? No, bros. Because they had all these picks.

[C]

It is because they're crushing it in the draft.

[B]

Well, because they got in the top four.

[C]

Well, but they.

[B]

So this is what I'm saying. Like the greatest team in the 20. Well, like they had all these picks to try and they, they didn't.

[C]

They got. Yes, they got exceedingly lucky three years in a row.

[B]

I understand but that's what I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. The point I'm making is that this is why the Tanks are happen and also how did even the best run team in the league for 25 years if you give them picks in the teens, they're not going to be able to draft guys. You're going to make a difference Just let me hop.

[D]

And what was the most important piece of their five championship teams?

[C]

Yes, it was the overall pick.

[D]

Tim Duncan who you to get and.

[C]

David Robinson who they got the number one pick for before that. And so there's a couple things here, right? The spurs got very lucky and got these three picks in a row in the top four. All right. The NBA made this grand push to flatten the lottery odds. Okay, I think that has backfired. I think it is if you look repeatedly over time, all sorts of teams from the 7 to 11 range in the lottery have leapt up and gotten Zion Williamson, John Morant. The Lakers in part got Anthony Davis because they jumped up from 11. Cooper flag just jumped up last year Dylan Harper was, I think the spurs were ninth. The Hawks the year before. Yes, they got Zach Richach. He is not so far looking like an all star. But they jumped up from 10. All of those teams all were like okay to pretty good teams starting to be on the way up. That all leapt up ahead of really bad teams that in the past had a much, much, much higher percentage chance of getting any of the dominant players that have come through.

[D]

And what including by the way the Wizards and the Jazz. Which is, you know, why those franchises are in year three of desperate pick protection mode when it's a mid lottery protection, right.

[C]

In this last year, the four teams with the worst records, Charlotte stayed fourth. The other three fell out of the top four entirely. Right. In a draft where Vijay Hedgecomb went third. He's awfully good. Dylan Harper went Phillies, another team that obviously had Tank to keep their pick. But Philly got VJ Edgecomb. He's awfully good. Dylan Harper goes to the spurs. He's awfully good. And we know how good Cooper is. So like the, the reform the league tried to do to flatten the odds to not have it be as incentivized for the worst teams to tank. I don't think has worked in the way that they hoped that it would. So the question now will be okay, what is the league going to do? One option is to look at this middle lottery pick protection which has been sort of the most glaring example of teams trying to manipulate the system. Spurs last year, the Jazz this year, the Wizards this year, the warriors when they got Harrison Barnes, all of those teams all had top six, top seven, top eight. The Mavericks when they kept their top 10 protected pick, bailed out of the play in to keep their pick. All of those were all the same thing. Now there's varied different arguments on whether you should do that or not, which we've talked about before. Do you want to limit teams ability to negotiate, etc. Etc. The other option then, I think is to look at the broader incentives in general and say, how do you fix the incentives that we're talking about where teams at the bottom are incentivized to lose all the way through as much as possible. And that's where the idea that I have thought a lot about, we've talked about it a bunch, that I think is the best fix to this, that I think solves the most problems without creating new ones, or at least many new ones, is the one where at some point in February, whether it's after the All Star break or at some date in the schedule, number of games, whatever, it goes from losses going towards the lottery to wins going towards the lottery. So there's at least a third of the season where all of these teams we're talking about are incentivized to try to win as much as possible, especially when those games are coming at the end of the season when everybody is fighting for playoff positioning. And the idea that you have some games where teams are just openly not trying to win and then other games where teams are desperately trying to win just has an uneven playing field. I don't know if that's a perfect fix. I don't know if there is a perfect fix. But if you're going to try to do something, that to me is the kind of thing that might work.

[B]

You know what a lot of people will tell you, including Europeans? Well, they will bring up the word relegation. Well, again, this is where, you know, like in Europe, the bottom three teams get knocked down. A league that's not realistic. Again, you could do a doctoral review on why this is wonderful.

[C]

The NBA is a league with that. It's entirely set up with the entire, like, it's. It's the complete polar opposite of a league that's built on relegation. They want everybody to have a chance.

[B]

You need 23 votes. Why would one. Why would one owner vote for relegation?

[C]

Just forget that the NBA is the. The whole idea of the NBA is for everybody to have a chance to win. In a relegation system, the teams with the most money get the best players. That's not. That's like the opposite of what the NBA is trying to do.

[B]

Well, that's so. But so. And that's so. Okay, what you're talking about, Bon Temps, is. Goes up to one of my favorite quotes of all time, which I've said on the pod before, and that's and I reference it a lot, it's practically second behind actions over words. Charlie Munger, the late Berkshire Hathaway.

[C]

Back to Omaha, baby.

[B]

That's right. Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. So that's what you're seeing right now. You show me the incentive, which in the case of the Jazz and the Wizards, get in that top four and I'll show you the outcome last year. Show me the incentive with Philly. Top six, baby, come hell or high water. Top six.

[C]

Well, listen, the Sixers as late as like January, I think, honestly we're telling me we don't think we can be that bad. And then their season went so badly that they were like, you know what? Maybe we can be that bad.

[B]

Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome.

[D]

By the way, I heard the same thing from the Mavs weeks ago now, but basically saying, dude, we could try to be bad, we can't be worse than like 8th in the lottery odds.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[B]

Again, show me the incentive, I'll show you the outcome. And I, you know, so, and that's.

[D]

Why I think you got to tweak incentives. That's why I feel strongly that I like the, you know, March 1st or whatever. Flip it to where the wins count towards your lottery odds. I also like, if you are a bottom, we can discuss number three, team four team, whatever it is, multiple years, then I don't think those teams should be able to get luxury tax payments.

[B]

Or you could do something very, very simple and just do it in, you know, fix it in one sentence, which is that every lottery team has the same odds so that, you know, if you're, if you're, you know, if you're a non playoff team, you're not, you're at least, you're at least playing. You're not, you're not keeping your star player on the bench for rest when there's days off on either side.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

I mean, the moral hazard for the.

[D]

Playing tournament if you do that. Because the moral hazard of that punting playing game.

[C]

Exactly. The moral hazard of that is, are you, are you seeing an 8, 9 play in game to play the Oklahoma City Thunder in the first round where somebody just says, yeah, we're just going to sit all of our top nine guys today and we're just not going to make the playoffs.

[B]

You know, the other thing about the, you know, European soccer gets a lot, right? And one of it is relegation. That's not an option in the NBA. One of the things that, you know, Adam Silver is trying to do with this NBA cup is to give teams that are not potentially championship teams a chance to win something and, like.

[D]

And raise a banner.

[B]

Well, I would do it. I mean, you know, the. But obviously, you know, people laugh at it, but, like, for. For example, the team that I follow in England, Tottenham Hotspur, last year had a miserable season in the Premier League. They finished, like, 15th or 16th, like, their worst finish in decades. Okay. So bad that the coach and the chairman ended up getting fired. Okay. But they were playing in this other competition, the Europa League, which they won, and it was their first trophy of any kind in 17 years. And at some point in the year, they prioritized the Europa League over everything else. And they had a parade through the streets of London celebrating this championship, and then a week later fired their coach. But, like, it kept them engaged. And that's kind of the. You know, that's. You know, the NBA cup is probably decades from being something like that. It is also in the wrong time on the calendar. But, like, part. That's part of. I mean, I guess technically, Adam Silver is trying to create something new to sell, which they did. They sold it to Amazon for the next 11 years. So, you know, but I think there's, you know, they're not just, you know, they're trying to address that. They're not just sitting there in New York not doing anything about it. They're trying to address it. I'm just saying, like, Will Hardy is. You know, guys, Will Hardy is an excellent coach. We all agree with this.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes, we do.

[B]

He called one timeout in the first 18 minutes of the game yesterday. His team was down. His team was. His team was down 35 in the second quarter with seven minutes. He had called one timeout.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, listen, it.

[B]

It.

[C]

It's a. It's a. It's a brutal situation for everybody involved, and it's not.

[B]

It's.

[C]

It's not. It can both be the right thing to do and a very not fun thing to do, especially when you're the person who's standing there with your arms crossed and you're leaning up against the stanchion and you're the one taking all the L's on your record over and over and over again despite being an excellent coach.

[D]

And it's really a rough way to go about things if you have to do it for multiple years because it's completely counterproductive to your player development program. Like, player development's a euphemism in a lot of Times for tanking because it's like, oh, we'll play the young guys and sit the vets. But when you, like when you have promising young players that aren't in competitive situations and that are developing bad habits because frankly, losing is part of the plan, you know, there's rot that can creep into your, in your team, in your franchise.

[B]

Yeah, well, look, Trae Young is kind of a hard player to learn to play with. It's going to take you a little bit of time to learn to play with them because he plays a style that's a little bit different. And it would probably be really good for the Wizards to get a few months of playing with them. But not more important than drafting a guy in the top three.

[C]

Think Keith will not. It's not even that. It's keeping top eight protected pick.

[B]

That's what it is.

[D]

And not unique. You trade for a guy with a, you know, kind of a silent agreement that he's going to sit. When do we see that? Recently it's exactly what Toronto did with Brandon Ingram, who then got a, you know, 40 plus million dollar per year salary.

[B]

That's part of the reason that marketing got that contract, which a lot of people thought was a little too high, was because he had to sign up for this. And part of the reason Brandon Ingram got that contract, which a lot of people thought was a little too high. I'm not saying the whole reason, but if you're telling a player you're not going to play the rest of the season before you become a free agent, the player's not going to go with it unless he's protected. So, you know, the only thing I'll.

[C]

Say on Brandon Ingram, and you can scoff at this if you want, is I believe the league checked out that situation and I do think his ankle was actually fairly jacked up. I'm not saying that the goal, the goal was the same for everybody there, but that situation I think might be slightly filed differently than okay, be that.

[B]

As a Trey Young played five games after he hurt his knee, he came back.

[C]

No, listen, I, I, look, I'm not.

[B]

I'm not, I don't want to wrap the Wizards over the knuckles. I'm not like, it's not their fault.

[C]

We all, we all right, we all understand what's going on. We all think it's the right thing for these teams to do. Again, it goes back to the problem of the incentives and you bring up the NBA Cup. The NBA created the NBA Cup, I would say for two reasons, mainly one to have a thing to sell, which they did successfully because they're very good at selling things. And two, for as much as Adam talks about having another thing to win, I guess it's three, because I do. I do think there's some validity to that. The other reason they created it, and I think probably the main reason is they were trying to find a way to juice up the first two months of the schedule when people were watching college football in the NFL. And I would say the NBA cup is not the, you know, it's not the NBA Finals, but I think it has achieved its objective of getting people to pay a little more attention. In November and the first half of December, people care a little bit more about the NBA than they did three years ago. Now, this entire topic we're talking about is about the schedule from the All Star Game, especially from the all star game until April 15th, when, as we all know, and we all really like watching basketball and we enjoy it beyond it being our jobs, those two months are full of wretched games. And that's by design. So are you really going to sit here and for. And keep going into in perpetuity and having a third or more of your schedule by design be set up with teams flagrantly not trying to play and trying not to win? For understandable reasons, but that go against putting the best product on the court. Which is why I appreciate how McMahon has framed this over and over again, that it is one of the main things the league should be worried about. Because if you tell people over and over again that you don't need to watch these games, newsflash, they're not going to watch the games. They're going to do something else.

[B]

All right, so John Morant, Sham's reported a couple of days ago, John Morant is available on the trade market. There's this awkward thing where the Grizzlies are flying, I think, as we speak right now, are flying over to Europe. The Grizzlies and the Magic are playing two games in Europe this upcoming week. One game in Berlin and one game in London. These are showcase games for the NBA. They are planned out a year plus in advance. There's a lot of business that goes around them. There's a lot of promotion that goes around them. They're picking areas where they're trying to engage fans and engage sponsors. The NBA right now is trying to establish a new league in Europe and Berlin and London are two of the places where they are looking very seriously at going. All of this stuff is very important. Ja is one of the signature players in here and he comes over in a situation where he is trying to be traded because his team is moving another direction. So that's less than ideal. He has missed a number of games in a row here as he's dealt with the lingering calf issue. But it's important for MBA business for him to play McMahon. So at some point he is going to not only play but have to do interviews because he is again, the headliner of this thing. He can't run away from this over there.

[D]

Well, it's also important for Jaws business, especially Ja as a guy who has a signature shoe with Nike.

[B]

Correct. So the problem is here, it's not a situation that's dissimilar to what's going on with Trae Young, is that Ja's value is not great right now. Forget about the fact that he has had these off court issues and has faced suspensions. By the way, his most recent suspension was a team suspension this year. But his production level as he's dealt with injuries over the last several years has been falling off. And he is right now having arguably his worst year of his career.

[D]

Unquestionably his worst year of his career when you factor in efficiency and the fact that again, they're 6 and 12 with him on the floor, he is.

[B]

Three point shooting is basically the worst in the league for someone who shoots as much as he does has jump shooting.

[D]

Period.

[B]

Okay, so this is not the time to trade a player. Yet here they are. McMahon.

[C]

Well, yeah.

[D]

And look, people. Oh my gosh, I can't believe they couldn't get more for Trey Young. If that's what you think, you haven't been paying attention. Like, you know, Bobby and I wrote about this in early December and it's not like it was some kind of new concept here. We lumped LaMelo Ball in. And by the way, Lamelo's shown some flashes. The Hornets have put some wins together, but it was Ja, Tre and Lamelo, these three max point guards, former all stars, Young in either entering their prime or what should be in their prime. The perception around the league was that all could be available. Trey obviously became very available. Not just available, they were desperately trying to dump him. That's why they took back an expiring deal. And you know, kind of a flyer on a former lottery pick who's had a middling career so far, you know. You know, Sean's reported that the Grizzlies are looking for young players and, you know, multiple picks for jogging. Good luck with that because you know, the feedback that we got on Jaw was any more favorable than the feedback that, that we got on Trey. And matter of fact, in some cases it was even worse. And again, it's. He's not attacking the rim nearly like he used to be. He did recently have a 40 point game that was kind of like a reminder or even an indication of, hey, if I want to, I still can. How often does he want to? How often is he even available? He's a bad jump shooter who's shooting more jump shots than ever. And I'll just quote an east executive from then, the combination of pain in the ass, injury prone, not that good anymore in big contract is a bad one.

[C]

I mean, look, at the end of the day, this is no different than the Trey situation. So the question, like the Trey situation is, is there a team? That's the question. I think if you look at the fact that this story's out there, it means that Memphis is open to do a deal. And if Memphis is open to do a deal, like Atlanta was open to do a deal, like we spent the last few weeks walking through that situation, it comes back to, is there somebody who will take John Moran? And I would say the answer is very much I don't know. I think there's a couple possibilities, maybe. But like we talked about with the Trae Young situation, there are very few teams that need a point guard. There are very few teams that could take on a $40 million salary, and there are even fewer teams that can do both. So I would guess that Trey Young, that John Moran is traded like Trey Young was traded between now and February 5th, because once these things tend to start down the track, they tend to get to a resolution. And the fact that it's out there would seem to me to be an indication the Grizzlies, one way or the other, are ready to exit stage right from this situation. However, I will reserve the right to say there might not be an exit from the situation. And because of that, we might just be sitting here on February 6th with John Moran on the Grizzlies. Well, I mean, you're shaking your head, McMahon, but if nobody wants to trade.

[B]

For him, I think there's teams who want to trade for him. It's just a matter of whether the offer is going to be palatable for Memphis.

[D]

Well, I mean, he's a distressed asset. So, you know, for example, like Milwaukee's been mentioned, like Milwaukee can't give you significant value in a trade. They don't have it too often.

[C]

But don't spend time talking about the framing.

[D]

Okay, but here's the deal.

[C]

It's the Trey Young situation. Exactly.

[D]

Here's the thing, though. The Grizzlies have to trade. Ja. You can't have the toothpaste out of the tube and then, you know, have to deal with the situation. He cannot be on the roster after February 6th. It will be an absolute mess. He's already had a very loud, ugly confrontation with their rookie coach. Everybody in that arena, much less locker room, knows they want to get rid of him. And the feeling is mutual.

[C]

You can't.

[D]

You cannot. It's. It's reached a point where John Morant's career cannot continue in Memphis.

[C]

I would agree with you. However, I would just reiterate. I think there was one team interested in trading for Trey Young, so there might not be a team interested in trading for John Morant. And if there's not, it's hard to trade him if nobody wants it.

[B]

I think there are some teams that are interested. I'm just not sure Memphis is going to want what the offer is.

[C]

Well.

[D]

Well, they're interested because they think they can get him for. It's an upside play.

[B]

Because they've got their own problem. They've got their own contract that they're. The poo poo platter.

[C]

Yes. So, I mean, I would still bet that he's traded between now and February 5th somewhere. I have no idea where. But I. I think that there is at least a chance he won't be, because either no one's really interested, or the only things that are of interest are just, for whatever reason, a worse situation than telling Ja to park it till the summer and trying again then.

[B]

So let's go back in some history. What happened when the Thunder decided to trade Paul George? What happened next?

[D]

Well, one, it was not in the middle of the season.

[B]

Okay, that's fine. But what happened next?

[D]

What happened next?

[C]

They decided to trade Paul George.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

For Paul George or trade him away.

[B]

They traded Russell Westbrook. Yeah. When the Jazz traded Rudy Gobert.

[C]

Oh, we're going back. Is this what we're doing?

[B]

Desmond Bain has been traded. Now John Morant's available, and then why.

[D]

Are you moving it forward?

[C]

Well, I would say. I would say if you go back to that, if you want to look at these situations in analog, because I think they are an analog. Why was Dejounte Murray traded and not Trey Young?

[B]

Because they could trade.

[C]

Because Dejante Murray had a lot more value to at least one team than Trey Young had anywhere. And that's exactly what happened with Desmond Bain. I think if the Grizzlies could have gotten that package for John Morant, they would still have Desmond Bain. And I'm not sure they'd be looking to trade Desmond Bain.

[D]

However, they traded Desmond Bain this summer. And what else did they do this summer of significance?

[C]

They also extended Jaren Jackson Jr. To.

[D]

As much as they could give him the second they could give him despite the fact they knew he had to get toe surgery. So their actions are telling you that they are determined to con to rebuild the Grizzlies. I would say around Jaren Jackson Jr. There is a lot of discussion around the league wondering if that is mutual.

[C]

I would say, yeah, I mean look, I would say all bets are off in general. The way things have gone there. I'm not so certain I would be rushing to take on Jaren Jackson Jr. And his money at this point. I'm not sure how well that contract will age over time for all the, all the time. We've talked about guys in that stratosphere of money and yeah, like I just go back to the Trey thing over and over again. Like this is. This is exactly like the Trae Young situation. And I suspect if a trade happens it's either going to look something like that or it's going to be longer term money. But like that.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Because I just don't see where the. I don't see where any kind of strong offer is coming in for him because frankly I think if there had been a strong offer somewhere, he wouldn't be on the team today.

[D]

Yeah, it's not like this reporting is the first time people around the league thought that Ja was available. Like whether. Now this is the first time that there's been kind of the admission that he's being shopped. But there's been the perception that Ja could be had in trade market for over a year now.

[C]

It's also again the same as Trey.

[B]

It's.

[C]

It's exactly the same. And how did that end? That ended with no draft picks and a couple rotation players.

[D]

If there are multiple picks involved in this, it's because the Grizzlies are taking back some really ugly long term salaries.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Well the other thing is the Grizzlies have a very complex pick situation this year. It involves swaps with the Suns and Wizards, which involves the Bain trade. But basically.

[D]

And Magic.

[C]

Yeah, hilarious. I think they'd end up with the Magics pick as of now.

[D]

Well and the funny thing there is when they made. Well, funny if you're not a Memphis fan or in their front office. When they made that trade for Bain, their belief was the best asset that they got was the Suns pick this year as part of that, the right.

[C]

To swap the pick this year. Yep.

[D]

Right. They thought, hey, that's going to be a lottery pick, maybe even a high lottery pick. And one of the primary reasons that, no, it looks like it won't even be a lottery pick, much less the pick that you end up getting, is because Dylan Brooks, a guy who was very unceremoniously dumped by the Grizzlies when his contract expired and kind of started this chain of events that's led us to this point, has had a great impact in Phoenix. And the Suns now are one of the teams that may be the team that is most exceeding expectations this year.

[B]

I seriously, I like need Bobby Marks and a whiteboard and some hallucinogenic drugs to figure out their swap situation, but they could end up with two lottery picks this year.

[D]

I can help you with hallucinogenics.

[C]

I mean, it's not that hard. They're going to have their pick and they're probably going to have Orlando or Phoenix's pick. And they thought Phoenix's pick was going to be a very good pick and it's probably not going to be. And the fact that it could be Orlando's, I think is emblematic of the fact that it's not going to be the high value swing that they hoped it would be.

[D]

Right as we speak right now, The Grizzlies are 10th in the lottery standings. That's their own right. They had that one. And then the other pick that they get is the Magic at 17. And that's because the Suns are sitting at 21.

[B]

The Suns have a better record than the Magic or the Grizzlies.

[D]

Correct. By a not. It's not too much better than the. The Magic or. Yeah, the Magic 22 and 18. Suns are 23 and 15. The Grizzlies are 17 and 22.

[C]

What seems exceedingly unlikely is their best shot at getting the kind of player they were hop to get in this draft is coming from their own pick and not somebody else's.

[D]

Yeah. Now I will say this. There are some very intriguing young players that are already on the Grizzlies roster. Primarily, they're number one on the list would be Zach Edie. Unfortunately, he's dealing with the stress fracture in that ankle that is at this point a recurring problem that is tremendously concerning for a massive, you know, 7.

[B]

Foot 4, 300 pounds if I'm not mistaken. They just, I think Asalo said that he's been away from the team, getting consultations from doctors across the country. Yeah, I didn't like hearing that. I don't know what's going on, but that did not make me.

[D]

It is a very concerning situation. But hey, they traded up against Cedric Howard.

[B]

He's looked good.

[D]

That's a good, He's a really, really nice young player.

[C]

Jalen Wells is good. Cam Spencer is a good story. Like they've done a great job for the last several years under Zach Lyman's tenure of getting, finding guys in the second round as undrafted players on two way like Scottie Pippen is basically not played this year. That he's a, he's a really nice find for them off a two way. Like they've, they've done a really good job churning out depth developmental pieces over and over and over again.

[B]

Here's the thing. It's like saying Kelton Johnson's a nice piece, Devin Vassell's a nice piece. It ain't going to matter until you get a stud. They thought they had a student and now they don't.

[C]

But the point, McMahon's point is that if you, if they become the latest team to go from nine to one or nine to two or nine to three and they wind up with Cameron Boozer, AJ DeBance or Darren Peterson on this team with Cedric Coward, with a healthy Zach Edie, with Jalen Wells, that's.

[B]

What they're gonna do.

[C]

So two things we're aware of that.

[D]

One, John Moran is far and away the most talented player ever to wear a Grizzlies uniform. And he for a, I mean he was a shooting star. Not jump shooting but you know, like there was a time where yes, my.

[B]

God, what an enjoyable player to watch.

[D]

Yeah, his ceiling was sky high. He, he was the best player on, you know, teams that were finishing second in the West. They didn't have the playoff success. Everybody thought that it didn't ultimately, you know, reach what everybody considered his potential. But most talented player in franchise history and at this point they are a significantly better team. With Cam Spencer undrafted. Well, I guess he was a second round pick anyways. Two way guy, you know, homegrown developmental dude. They're a better team with Cam Spencer playing point guard than John Moran. The numbers net rating with, with Spencer on the floor, no job plus 3.8. Ja on the floor, no Spencer minus 7.9. I mean it hadn't been closed to.

[C]

Go back to the old window meme. Why would they want this out there? That they're trading them? Because they've decided they're exiting the ship finally. They've gone through all the ups and downs and tried to make it work all these different ways down all this stuff. And they've decided to use a line we've used on here before. The juice ain't worth squeeze anymore. So they're that just like it wasn't with Trey Young, just like it hasn't been in other situations like this in the past. And so the question becomes, to Brian's point, if there are teams that are interested, how low of a price can they take and stomach to have an exit stage right between now and February 5th? Because it's not going to be. I'm sure of this, whatever this trade is, if it happens, it's not going to be a trade that Joe Average fan is going to look at. God, man, Memphis, they got a haul for John Morant. It ain't going to be that. It's going to be like, what do you mean the Grizzly traded John Morant for X? Why would they do that? But that's not the way it should obviously be looked at.

[D]

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you on here is that the Grizzlies wanted this out there because I think this is more of a case of enough people were hearing about it that it was getting out there, you know, that. I mean, when a player knows, hey, I'm gone soon, and, you know, it starts spreading, it's getting out there. So I. I don't think this was something that the Grizzlers were like, hey, this is like.

[C]

I'm not. I'm not saying that, but it's. I'm not saying that, but it's. I think they were aware. I would just say that they would be aware this was going to be out there on Friday.

[B]

Well, look, here's the thing. This is what, like, the Mavericks were afraid of when they wanted to trade Luca. They wanted to keep it all, you know.

[C]

Do not Dane any. We're just going to not Dane a single second of dodge its trade process with this time out.

[D]

There's one minor difference. If it would have leaked that Luke was on the block, the phone would have been ringing off the hood.

[B]

Well, that's the point. It's. It's you. That they would have gotten better offers, which is. You know, it's unpleasant when this happens. But sometimes. Sometimes it becoming public is a. Not that I'm saying that's why this.

[C]

Is like the Trey youngster.

[B]

When you talk to multiple teams, that's how it gets public.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

This is like that.

[B]

This is.

[C]

This is a. For the hundredth time, this is why it's like Trae Young. It's a situation that both sides need to move on from and they need to find the best path to doing that. And it's probably one that's going to be pretty humbling for. I mean, you would like to think it'd be humbling for Ja to see what the return will be and it's going to be humbling for Memphis. Listen, I mean, have this era of I'm fine in the west and with one second round appearance, the truth is.

[B]

Is that both Ja and Trey can have second acts.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just that their value right now is your team that's going to be betting that you can get that out of them. Not. You know, when Luca got to the Lakers, you didn't wonder whether he was going to put up numbers.

[C]

Well, again, I don't. We shouldn't be. Luka Doncic shouldn't be within 10,000 miles of this conversation.

[B]

It has to do with the star player being traded and the situations are different. Okay.

[D]

More hoop Collective podcast after this.

[B]

Bontemps, the game that you were you in, were you in Boston? You were in Boston last night?

[C]

I was in Boston for the Raptors Celtics game on Friday and the Spurs Celtics game on Saturday.

[D]

Bonvoy. Bontemps, baby.

[B]

How much. How much is Jaylen Brown going to be fined on Monday by the NBA for asking to be fined after complaining.

[C]

About officiating, Jaylen Brown will get a very hefty find. I could read through his quotes.

[B]

35,000. But I don't.

[D]

25. I'll take 25.

[B]

I'll take 25.

[C]

I'm going north. I'm going with Brian's guests. And I think I'll be right. He went above the normal. The normal.

[B]

He also name checked the ref, which is usually good for an extra.

[C]

That's why going that's why it's going to be more than 25. If you basically are accusing the refs by name of a conspiracy against you, it's not going to be the standard. The ref stink and you get fined.

[D]

Especially the conspiracy is Wendy or I'm sorry. Wimby was swatting his stuff all over the place.

[C]

Yeah. Here's what I'm gonna Here's what I'm gonna say about this Jaylen Brown thing. So let me.

[B]

Not everybody may so While you're saying, let me get the exact quotes up. So I.

[C]

But I don't even want to read the quotes. People can go find the quotes. Hold on. Can I explain why?

[B]

For the people, but go ahead.

[D]

Wendy's gonna read quotes.

[C]

I don't want to give Jaylen Brown the time of day to read the quotes. And here's why I'm going to read.

[B]

To you, our listeners, to be understanding.

[C]

But here's why I'm going to read to you the stats Jaylen Brown had in the fourth quarter of this game.

[D]

Which is why I read the quotes right after that.

[C]

One for nine from the field and two turnovers and played all 12 minutes. He was horrendous in the fourth quarter of this game. It was not because of the refs. It's why the Celtics, after leading basically the whole game, lost the game. And I don't think it was a coincidence that while Jalen's had a phenomenal season and arguably should be an all star starter, certainly should be an all Star. It's going to be an all NBA player. He had a horrific fourth quarter and then went in the locker room and said, the ref screwed us the whole game because we didn't get foul shots.

[B]

These are. This is taken from Tim Bontem story. I'm tired of the inconsistency. I'll accept the fine at this point. I thought it was some bull bleep tonight. I think the spurs are a good defensive team, but they ain't that damn good. I'm just extremely frustrating. Like, we play hard. We were outplaying our expectations. We compete hard in the defensive end, then they reward the other team with touch fouls. Every time we play a good team, the inconsistency is crazy. I'll take the effing fine. Curtis as in Curtis Blair, the crew chief. All them dudes were terrible tonight. I don't care. They can find me whatever they want.

[D]

Then he went on the famous bias against the Celtics. I love it.

[B]

Right? Then he went on X and reiterated, just in case you missed all that. I didn't even read all of it. I summarized it. No, no.

[C]

Yeah, that summarized it. He repeated that and cursed a whole bunch of times. I mean, it was absurd. Jalen Brown tried to go mano a mano with Victor Emanyama multiple times in the fourth quarter. He got a wide open three at the top of the key when they were down two with a minute and 20 seconds ago. Could have put him up. One missed. It came down. The spurs missed a shot. He Came back down the other way with the ball, got his pocket picked by de' Aaron Fox, gave up a layup, and that was the difference in the game. So, like, I don't want to hear about, ugh, we got screwed by the refs the whole game. I don't think they got screwed by the refs in the game. He had a really bad fourth quarter. If he's going to be the guy leading the team this year, especially with Jason Tatum out, like, just say you had a bad fourth quarter. Which he did. Say he had a bad fourth quarter, he's got to play better. But then also spent a long time saying there's a conspiracy against me and I'm tired of it. Like, just don't have an awful fourth quarter. And the Celtics have a really nice win and continue what's been a great season for him and for them.

[B]

He is averaging the most free throws of his career. The game before, he had 13 free throws and this game had zero. And so I think, you know, he could point to that with the consistency. A couple of the games where he's had low free throw amounts have been against good teams, but then again, maybe that's because they don't, they're good teams that don't foul. The Celtics are last in the NBA in free throw rate, but that's partially because they're one of the top teams in three point rate. They, they shoot.

[C]

They've historically been a team that doesn't get to the line very much. And it was Jason. Was Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown getting to the foul line. And obviously now Jason Tatum is not there. So it's really just Jalen Brown getting to the foul line. Not too dissimilar from the discussion we've repeatedly had about the Thunder and how they've got one or two guys that really get to the line consistently. And Joe Missoula got asked about this after the game and his response was, yeah, there were four or five fouls we had that we sent over the line easy. And we can't do that. Which, like, I would agree that would probably be the way to go. Can't do that.

[D]

And the other thing is Jalen Brown, great player who is a man that's prone to search for conspiracy theories.

[B]

That is true.

[C]

Jalen's had a great, Jalen's had a great, great season and he's been better than I expected he would be. And the Celtics have been awesome and full credit to him and to them. And like I said, he did take blame for how he Played in the fourth quarter. I personally would have liked it to just stop at. Yeah, I had a really crappy 12 minutes and I'll be better.

[D]

Then you wouldn't have had a story to write.

[C]

Yeah, I would have been. I also would have been fine not having the story to write. But here's the thing.

[D]

Jaylen Brown recently boasted he's the best two way player in the league. And I don't mind it at all. I think there's a case for it. I just think the guy that was swatting his stuff left and right in the fourth quarter has a better case.

[B]

I will say this. So I guess there's another side of this. So I saw a stat that, that Jalen has the averages the third most drives per game. You guys want to guess who's first and second?

[D]

Denny Abdiah and Shay Gilders Alexander.

[C]

There you go.

[B]

You got it right. Which Shay is routinely. You know, they slapped the free throw merchant on him. Like I'm not sure why that's such an insult, but whatever. That's the only thing people can do to say negative about Shay is that he gets a lot of free throws.

[C]

It's like oh no.

[D]

Right.

[B]

How insult. You know, I take him on my team.

[C]

He's pretty good.

[B]

Yeah, I would take him too. And then Denny Avia like didn't Tarva Easton the other day like something.

[D]

He had some comment about the zebras.

[B]

Yeah, he called him a.

[C]

By the way, hopefully Denny is all right. He had a.

[B]

He did get hurt today.

[C]

Very awkward looking fall. Well late in the Knicks game tonight, had another huge game. He landed and immediately grabbed his back and walked off the court. Went to the locker room. Thiago Splitter said he's worried about it. Danny said he is not. But that bear's watching. Obviously he's got a chance to make his first all star team and he's.

[D]

He should make his first all star team.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And by the way, he ranks second in the league. Denny Abdia in free throws attempted at 9.9. He plays a. Like he doesn't just drive, he bulldozes.

[C]

He.

[D]

He's a tight end going.

[B]

The point is, is that people are complaining and, and throwing, you know, insults for the foul. Hunting for Denny and for sga. No one's, you know, you know, you know Jalen is dodging that smoke.

[D]

Wait, where does Jalen rank in drives?

[B]

Third is what I said. Okay.

[D]

He does and he does rank. These aren't all guys who would qualify but Justin free throws per game. He's 15th in the league at 7.2. You know who leads the league by wide margin?

[B]

Probably Jalen Brunson, who's. Oh, no.

[D]

Nope. Giannis is third at 9.5, Shea's fourth at 9.2.

[C]

Yeah, your old pal. Yeah.

[D]

A guy who also has done a fair amount of complaining to and about refereeing during his day. Luka doncus is having 12 free throws per game.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Well, by the way, speaking of the Rockets, they're in trouble against the Kings in Sacramento right now. And they're lucky. We've given the Rockets a lot of praise this year. They're lucky that this podcast was happening before the end of that game, because if they end up losing this game, they just got beat twice in. In Portland. They just got beat in Dallas the other night. They are not a good road team right now and not a good road team.

[D]

Shingoon is back tonight. He got hurt in the first minute against Dallas. So, you know, they fell apart without kd and they're both losses in Portland and the loss in Dallas. I would say Shingoon's absence certainly was a factor.

[B]

Well, true, but those teams are missing players, too.

[D]

I would agree. And if they lose to sack, that's a. That's a pretty rough stretch.

[B]

I don't know what's going to happen. For all I know in the next 10 seconds, amen. Thompson will hit four threes and Shen Goon, who's not having a good game tonight, will make nine straight points.

[C]

They've had some consistent offensive struggles late. I mean, not too dissimilar from the Thunder, who have really been scuffling. I mean, they scuffled for a while today against Miami. Went on to win, by the way, one team that had been scuffling. Yeah, I went up winning by, I think, 12. One team that had been scuffling quite a bit. We talked about him tangentially earlier. The Atlanta Hawks are about to pretty comfortably beat the warriors in Golden State, where the warriors had been awfully hot for a while, and they've now ripped off three wins in a row since that trade. And I will just say, in games Trey Young did not. In games that Trey Young did not finish this season, they are 19 and 13. So, yeah, you know, have no fear.

[D]

The Wizards lost tonight by.

[B]

By 30. It was. It was a 30 point game.

[D]

Last I saw, Trey ended up losing by 19. But a lot of garbage time.

[B]

Yes. If the Rockets lose this game in Sacramento, and like I said, they're down four right now, maybe they win by 12. I'm not.

[C]

Sacramento could easily give that one back.

[B]

Correct. The Suns will be inside the top six, and the Rockets will be in the playing zone. So I'm just saying it could be a more thorough examination of the Rockets. They get.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, they've been scuffling. I mean, they're. They lose that one, it'll be three losses in a row. And like you said, they'll be. They'll be down in the. Down in the end.

[B]

But listen, no one knows the Hoop Collective drinks like we do.

[C]

And. And also. Well, listen, the other thing. I mean, we. We've talked about it a little bit. It is unbelievable what the Nuggets have done over the past couple of weeks. Like, we. When Jokic got hurt, all these guys were out. It was like, man, are the Nuggets going to be falling out of the plan? Are they going to be in the play in. Are they going to be safe?

[D]

You had them in the lottery.

[C]

I didn't have in the lottery, but I certainly thought they were going to plummet without Jokic, and instead they go to Boston. Win. Yeah, they go to Boston and win. They go to Philly and win. They go to Toronto and win. They go. They beat Milwaukee tonight with Giannis playing.

[B]

And I think here were tonight's starters.

[C]

Yeah, lay it out, lay it out.

[B]

Hunter Tyson, Spencer Jones, Jalen Pickett, Peyton Watson and Aaron Gordon.

[D]

And they all had negative plus minuses, except for Peyton Watson. Tim Hardaway Jr. A minimum signing, had 25 points on 8 to 12, shooting, was plus 27 in 35 minutes off the bench. Zeke Najee, a guy who his career had much aligned, and, hey, you know, he's on like he's been a contributor during a stretch. He was a plus 22 and 28 minutes off the bench, had 14 and.

[C]

10 and three assists, two steals and two blocks in the game.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, those were the two guys who really won this game for him. Those two.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

By the way, Giannis said 31, 8 and 11 and was plus 16 in 33 minutes, and they lost by four. So they were minus 20 in the 15 minutes he didn't play.

[D]

I mean, don't disrespect by asking for a status update. He is just committed. Committed to Milwaukee. Would never. It's not in his nature. Would never even think about leaving.

[C]

Well, what I was going to say, though, is for. With everything that's gone on the past couple of weeks without Jokic, who I think could be back sometime fairly soon, these guys right now are A game and a half out of second and they're still in third, which is an unbelievable accomplishment for Denver. Like, these wins are gigantic for them. They stay right behind the Spurs. Like, that's going to put them in really strong. I mean, I would bet that once Jokic is back, Denver finishes second in the west if they're a couple games back of the spurs or closer. And for all the scuffling the Thunder have done recently, those two teams would love to be first and second and not seeing each other until the conference finals. So that. I mean, that it's been a bunch of random games that they've won, but I.

[B]

They.

[C]

It's just been a remarkable stretch for Denver to pull these wins out with a skeleton crew and a bunch of them.

[B]

Yeah, you have to respect it. All right, let me wait. One more check of the Rocket score. I will see if we could just. If we instantaneously caused the karma to flip.

[D]

Not quite yet.

[B]

Now they're down by 5.

[D]

The ref just missed a horrendous offensive goaltending on the Kings, but that's okay.

[B]

All right.

[D]

We don't want to go all Jalen Brown.

[B]

Sure. You may won't call them out by name.

[D]

How tall is Curtis Blair? Curtis Blair is a pretty big fella.

[B]

Well, he's big enough where I wouldn't mess with him. I don't care how tall he is. His biceps are pretty. Whatever he might lack in height, he makes up for in his biceps. Oh, by the way, shout out. Either shout out to Bill Kennedy, who went down with a Hamm injury.

[C]

Yeah. Feel better soon, Bill.

[B]

I hope you're doing well. I hope you hope you're doing all right. Take it easy. You earned a little bit best. All right, thank you to Jackson, Devon and Mark, our producers. Devon has been stuggling through this because he's a Chargers fan. That's been going on and we made him do this podcast.

[D]

Trust me, it was a pleasant distraction for him.

[C]

I got to show you that.

[B]

All right, thank you to Bontemps and McMahon. Thank you for watching and listening to Hoop Collective. We'll be talking to you in a couple of days.

[D]

Adios, amigos.