Biggest Lessons Learned in Early NBA Season

Summary

Podcast Summary: Biggest Lessons Learned in the Early NBA Season

Podcast: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst (B), with ESPN Insiders Tim Bontemps (C) and Tim MacMahon (A)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the early storylines, surprises, and key takeaways from the first month of the NBA season. Windhorst, Bontemps, and MacMahon discuss notable altercations, players under and over-performing, trade market realities, contract issues, and league-wide trends—sprinkled with their characteristic humor and insider anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Klay Thompson vs. Ja Morant: Old Beefs and Brutal Honesty

• [02:05 – 15:39]
  The team recounts on-court and postgame fireworks between Klay Thompson and Ja Morant, underscoring the depth of their history and Klay’s no-nonsense criticism of Morant's lack of accountability and play.

  • Klay’s two on-court confrontations (with Santi Aldama and Vince Williams Jr.), the missed game-tying shot, and his pointed words for Ja Morant, who taunted him from the sidelines despite not playing.
  • Memorable Quote – Klay Thompson, via Tim MacMahon [10:09]:
    “He says it was just running his mouth, and he's been running his mouth for a long time. It's funny to run your mouth when you're on the bench. It's kind of the story of his career so far, just leaving us wanting more. We all want to see him out there and do his best, but he's just been letting a lot of other stuff get in the way of that. We need that in the NBA. We need our best players to be out there. And when you're a star, it comes with a great responsibility. I hate to see that go to waste.”
  • Panel’s agreement: Klay’s remarks hit harder because they’re true (“He didn't say one single lie.” [10:12]).

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2. Ja Morant’s Decline & Grizzlies’ Direction

• [15:39 – 18:23]
  • Bontemps brings stats showing Morant’s diminishing rim-attacking and poor shooting—down to 15% of shots at the rim and just 17% from three.
  • [17:27]: No improvement on his jumper; lost explosiveness; heavily reliant on a skill he’s abandoning due to injury/fear.
  • Panel questions potential trade value: “Why is anyone rushing to trade for Ja Morant?”

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3. Trade Market Realities: Blockbuster Deals, Bad Contracts, Limited Returns

• [23:08 – 35:38]
  • Analysis of how the market for high-salary “star” players (e.g., Zach LaVine, DeMar DeRozan, Domantas Sabonis, even Anthony Davis) has collapsed because of bloated contracts and new NBA economics.
  • MacMahon [32:13]: “A good AD trade provides some significant financial relief next year... probably going to be tough at picking a swap and at least a young player who, you know, you can see as a rotation player...”
  • Discussion of the Luka-for-AD trade, low return for “stars,” and how recent blockbuster trades (e.g., Kevin Durant) are canaries in the coal mine (with a detour explaining the phrase at [35:38]).

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4. Team Snapshots: Lessons Learned So Far

Miami Heat: System Over Stars

• [36:22 – 39:39]
  • Praise for Miami’s new up-tempo, ball-moving system, perfect for the current roster and fast pace.
  • Norm Powell has excelled, averaging 25.4 PPG on a 65.8 TS% in only 30 MPG.
  • Bontemps [39:11]: “They are the fastest paced team in the league by over two possessions per game... and [Powell] is perfect fitting into that.”
  • Anticipation for Tyler Herro's return and how he fits.

Milwaukee Bucks: Giannis’s Indispensability

• [39:39 – 46:12]
  • Bontemps asserts Giannis is the MVP by team dependence metrics; team collapses offensively without him.
  • MacMahon and the group push back, listing Jokic and SGA as equally impressive.
  • Key Point [43:34]: “When you take Giannis off the court, the Bucks go from having the best offense in the league to... the worst...”
  • Bucks record: “When he hasn't played, they've been very bad... There really is no plan B.”

Denver Nuggets: Surviving Injuries

• [46:12 – 51:03]
  • Jamal Murray is having a career-best start—critical with Aaron Gordon and Christian Braun out.
  • Team is searching for depth with players like Peyton Watson stepping up, but overreliance on Jokic is a concern during softer schedule.

Lakers: Winning But Unconvincing

• [52:41 – 57:44]
  • Lakers have a strong record (12-4, 8-2 on the road) but questionable net rating and “quality wins.”
  • LeBron’s conditioning and defensive effort scrutinized. The team awaits tougher schedule to judge their real ceiling.

Atlanta Hawks: The Jalen Johnson Leap

• [57:47 – 62:22]
  • Bontemps highlights Jalen Johnson’s emergence (22 PPG, 10 RPG, 7 APG, 57/41 splits) and his possible place in a post-Trae Young Hawks blueprint.
  • MacMahon [58:08]: “I want to start less—than after one month—there might be a blueprint for the post-Trae Young era.”
  • Atlanta finding internal answers instead of trading for another ball-handler.

Clippers: Legends, Not Winners

• [62:22 – End]
  • Kawhi’s return, big Zubac game, and the team’s struggles; Clippers feel old and slow, battling injuries and Father Time.
  • James Harden’s offensive fireworks keep them competitive, but team’s age and fit are clear issues.
  • Stat nuggets on 50-point games: Harden now tied with Kobe for 3rd all-time.
  • Nostalgic look at Chris Paul’s impending retirement and historical assist/steal records.
  • Ongoing theme: Team’s poor results enhance Oklahoma City’s future, given their control of the Clippers’ picks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Klay on Ja Morant [10:09]:
  “It's funny to run your mouth when you're on the bench... just letting a lot of other stuff get in the way... when you're a star, it comes with great responsibility.”
• On AD’s Trade Value [32:13]:
  “A good AD trade provides some significant financial relief next year... not going to be something that excites people, but that’s the kind of business the Mavericks will be, I believe, looking to do.”
• On Miami’s Offensive Fit [39:11]:
  “They're playing fast and they are attacking and [Norm Powell] is perfect fitting into that.”
• On Giannis’s Importance [43:34]:
  “…if Giannis isn't on the court, they're one of the worst teams in the league.”
• Jalen Johnson Breakout [58:08]:
  “There might be a blueprint for the post-Trae Young era.”

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Klay vs. Ja & postgame quotes – [02:05 – 15:39]
• Ja Morant’s decline & lurking trade questions – [15:39 – 18:23]
• Blockbuster trade reality check & contract values – [23:08 – 35:38]
• Canary in the coal mine explanation – [35:38 – 36:22]
• Miami Heat’s system, Norm Powell emergence – [36:22 – 39:39]
• Milwaukee Bucks w/o Giannis = disaster – [39:39 – 46:12]
• Denver injuries & depth, Jamal Murray – [46:12 – 51:03]
• Lakers: results vs reality – [52:41 – 57:44]
• Hawks’ Jalen Johnson evolution – [57:47 – 62:22]
• Clippers aging, Harden bombs, CP3 career tributes – [62:22 – End]

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Style, Language, and Tone

The podcast blends deep statistical analysis, reporting from inside the league, banter, and sharp humor. MacMahon leans blunt, Bontemps methodical and data-driven, and Windhorst often reflective and anecdotal. The tone is casual yet authoritative, with plenty of playful ribbing among friends.

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Summary Takeaways

• Tensions from past playoff history can reemerge in fiery ways (Klay v. Ja)—and veteran stars won’t pull punches on younger rivals.
• The NBA trade market has fundamentally shifted due to contract size and value changes—big names might fetch little in return.
• New offensive philosophies (Miami), injury management (Denver), and breakout stars (Jalen Johnson) are shaping team fortunes.
• The modern league exposes aging rosters fast (Clippers) and reaffirms how indispensable true superstars are (Giannis in Milwaukee).
• Throughout, comedic asides (“canary in a coal mine?”), digressions into NBA history, and trivia keep the episode lively and accessible for both hardcore and casual fans.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening. Joining us from New York City is Tim Bottoms.

[C]

Hello, everybody.

[B]

Montems is headed down Florida way on Monday to. It's going to Miami. I'm sure you're going there for Tyler Heroes return.

[C]

We're going there to take over the Mavs beat from Tim McMahon for one day.

[B]

That's right. Speaking of the Mavs joining us from Dallas, Texas, where you had more, more fun than you bargained for on Saturday night, band McMahon.

[A]

Howdy, partners Bond temps. Happy to give it to you. You can have it. Enjoy. Yeah, I gotta tell you, a Saturday Night Football season game between, you know, two teams that been struggling this year, to put it mildly. And it was hard on the eyes, but easy on the ears afterward. There's a little bit of drama for us to work with. A little bit. Yeah, I did. I ended up working a little bit harder than I thought. But these are the kind of stories that I, I do, I must admit, I enjoy.

[B]

Well, all the extra work that McMahon has been doing on the Mavericks beat not only has included some overtime games and so on the group text, we were joking with him because the Grizzlies and Mavs look like coming down towards overtime and he's like, oh my God. He's like, I thought tonight was going to be an easy night. Little did he know that right after the game.

[A]

Well, you know why I didn't go to overtime? Klay Thompson missed a potential tying three with 20.6 seconds remaining. And I think that that might have been one of the things that a youngster brought up to him afterwards. A youngster wearing sweats.

[B]

Right. Well, it started, I don't know when it started, but because I wasn't watching.

[C]

The game, I just saw it started years ago. It started years ago.

[A]

It started in the 2021 play and continued in the 2022 playoffs. But then last night.

[B]

Well, we haven't even said just, I.

[C]

Mean, in case everybody play Thompson and John Moran for. I'm sure people have figured it out.

[B]

But if they, I Wouldn't say. You would not. I would not assume that on temps.

[C]

So our audience, I'm giving them, I'm giving our audience credit.

[B]

Well, it was the weekend. Not everybody was on top of everything.

[A]

Clay had a couple little brouhahas. Bruhaha is a little bit strong. Couple little, you know, confrontations during the game. The first one, the tall guy, as he called him, referring to Santi Alma, was on the ground underneath, kind of underneath the basket in the paint and. And Cooper flag started to run up the court and he did the old grab the ankle trick and tripped him up. Clay let him know he did not appreciate that. And no uncertain terms. Little review got upgraded to a flag one, and on they went. And then later in the game, Klay Thompson, Vince William Jr. This appeared to just be kind of your general game related trash talk. They both got teed up. So Clay was in a couple of little dust ups during the game. And it was actually. Clay had a season high 22, made six threes, didn't miss the potential time one. Honestly forced one up with, with about 20 seconds left from 29ft. Missed that. Mavs lose again. And John Morant wearing sweats, made the point to, you know, get some, get some words of discouragement in to Klay Thompson. Clay didn't want to have any of it. He came back and they had a little chit chat. At one point, Ja had his finger in Clay's face. Security and coaches and whatnot got involved and got him separated. Then Ja went to congratulate Cam Spencer, who happened to be doing the broadcast interview, the Grizzlies broadcast, walk off interview on the court, and got an old, another little jab at Clay, you know, who. Tell them who the best shooter on the court was. It wasn't rough in Golden State, something along those lines. And so, you know, we go in the locker room and once Clay's ready to chit chat, he was asked about his exchange with John Moran and he had.

[B]

Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. He was asked by you. And I was just gonna say I.

[A]

Didn'T ask the original one.

[B]

All right, I'm gonna ask for a 30 second timeout. Bon Thomps. We're going to pretend like McMahon's not here right now.

[C]

Okay?

[B]

McMahon is the rare, one of the rarest of basketball journalists in that he is absolutely fearless in asking questions and has been for many, many years. And that's not to say that other people are fearful, but like, you know, it takes guts to step forward to a player when you or A coach.

[C]

Or an owner will be shocked to know McMahon's not afraid to shoot his mouth off.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Nobody's listening to the POD has ever been able to figure that.

[B]

But allow me to add a little bit more. More nuance to it, for sure, is that McMahon has the. Like a pitcher like you see McMahon has. You think that he, you know, his attitude on this podcast, you know, he's pure Texan, and he sometimes plays a little bit like, you know, you know, the heavy. Sometimes he plays, you know, you know, a little bit of a character. But McMahon can change. Sometimes McMahon can change speeds. Okay? He can bring a fastball, and he can throw a. Change up and throw a curveball. And I've seen him do it, by the way. This is one of the things I would always say that I learned over the years about Greg Popovich. Popovich was a complicated interview, but Popovich always reversed what was. Was brought at him, and so I would reverse to Popovich. So if Popovich would come hard, I would come back at him soft. And if Popovich would come soft, I would sometimes come back at him hard because that's what he would do. Because, like, sometimes if you ask Popovich a hard question that he didn't really want to answer, he would be sarcastic back. And sometimes if you asked him, you know, basic question to establish dominance in the interview, he would come back hard. McMahon has a little bit of that in him, too.

[A]

And so what is the media ombudsman thing you pull in here? I. No. Weber, who writes for the Smoking Cube.

[B]

I am. I am praising you and setting up what happened in this interview. Thompson, go ahead.

[A]

However, started off a. A young little fella started it off, and he basically asked about all three things. And Ja, you know, went through the deal with the tall guy, Aldama.

[B]

You mean Clay. Clay went through.

[A]

I'm sorry, Clay. My bad. Clay went through the deal with the tall guy, Adama, and, you know, basically made it clear he thought that was dirty and referenced, without being specific, the. The dirty shot by Dylan BROOKS in the 2022 series that broke Gary Payton II's elbow, basically saying, yeah, you know, they do that kind of thing. And then he touched on The Vince Williams Jr. Thing, basically, you know, whatever kind of generic in game trash talk. And then he hit on Ja.

[B]

Yes. And let me just say, I don't know. You know, Clay is both a golfer and a fisherman. So I don't know if you want to say that you put it on a tee for him or whether you Want to say you bait the hook.

[A]

Well, no, no. With Ja, He. He said, he's a funny guy. He has a lot to say all the time, especially for a guy who rarely takes accountability. And then he was like, you know, but that's for. That's for another time. And then I just was like, no.

[B]

It'S going to be for this time.

[A]

I followed with a very simple inquiry. I said, what did Ja have to say on this occasion?

[B]

Like, I said, nice and soft. Bontemps. He.

[C]

You know, I mean, our guy. Our guy is very good at his job and a very good interviewer, but this was not exactly a hard one to get out. No, it wasn't.

[A]

Clay wanted to. Clay wanted.

[B]

Let me do the.

[C]

No, McMahon's great. That's not any criticism of the man.

[B]

Hey, hey, hey. Let me do the myth building here. You just type down.

[C]

Yeah, I like McMahon's. McMahon's. McMahon's got a jack.

[B]

Edit his whole edition. Edit. Edit Bon temps's whole restor out.

[C]

McMahon's got a grin the size of Texas right now for people watching on his favorite medium, YouTube, so they could see his smiling face. So he's loving it, as he should be.

[A]

Case, this was not difficult because Clay clearly had something to say.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Basically, my all. I. My, my. It was a. An eloquent version of saying, keep going, keep going. And he did. So what. What did j. Have to say on this occasion? And Clay said nothing of intelligent depth anyway. He says it was just running his mouth, and he's been running his mouth for a long time. It's funny to run your mouth when you're on the bench. It's kind of the story of his career so far, just leaving us wanting more. We all want to see him out there and do his best, but he's just been letting a lot of other stuff get in the way of that. We need that in the NBA. We need our best players to be out there. And when you're a star, it comes with a great responsibility. I hate to see that go to waste.

[C]

Yeah, that was. That was a devastating quote.

[A]

Clay said a lot there, and he didn't say one single lie.

[B]

How many people do you think in the Grizzlies organization read those quotes and were like, this is exactly what needs to be said?

[A]

I mean. Yes. And I will give you this. Is Clay a bit of a grumpy old man now? Absolutely.

[C]

Well, Clay has been like this since he was a young, not grumpy old man, too. He has always been a straight Shooter.

[B]

He stepped to LeBron in the 2016.

[A]

Yeah, but if you.

[C]

Clay has been a straight shooter from day one.

[A]

Right. And if you want to take shots at Clay being grumpy, look, he is older. He has been struggling this year. He did come to Dallas thinking he was going to be competing for championships and his far, far, far away from that. That doesn't he. But what Clay also is is a first ballot hall of Famer. He is a four time champion. And for perennial MDP candidate, most disappointing player candidate John Morant, to be wearing a freaking Nike sweatsuit and want to yap like a, you know, like a chihuahua at Klay Thompson at the end of a game. Like, give me a break, dude. Okay? And so Clay had every right to basically put this guy in his place.

[B]

But it was more than that. He like, he like, he, he was like. It's like when your, your parents would say, I'm not mad at you, I'm disappointed. Yeah. Like that's, that's basically what he said.

[C]

There's a lot of history right now.

[A]

There is a lot of history. There's a lot of history. The tension's been simmering for years. And we can go back to 21 plan when the groceries did eliminate the word 22 the next year.

[B]

I know, but this is, this is a different level. He took this.

[C]

What I was gonna, what I was gonna say with the history thing is the, the truth of the hit. When you have history like this and there's long term animosity, the most damaging thing you can do in a situation like this is do what Clay did, which is tell the truth. Because there's no arguing with anything he said at all. Any of it. And Clay, the guy doesn't play. And when he does play, he's not very good at this point.

[A]

No. And Clay did mention that he used to really respect the, the grit and grind era. Grizzlies, by the way, it's gone from grit and grind to quitting wine in Memphis.

[B]

He's one of the lines he's been waiting to use.

[C]

Oh, the MDP line. The MDP line. And that one he had him lined up for days.

[A]

Oh my God, you got on me about the. Just average is what jaw stands for. And I do, I take that one back because this year has been just abysmal.

[B]

Anyways, by the way, Cam Spencer, you know, Cam Spencer has a good finish to the game. He's all, he's all, you know, like, I wonder what. Like, I don't know Cam Spencer, you know, but Like Cam Spencer's getting this post game interview. You know, he's like, yeah, you know, we, we need to win in the worst way, you know, got this victory, you know, and, and here's Ja coming over, like talking to the camera, like during Cam's thing, like taking shots of Clay. I gotta be, I gotta be thinking, Cam's going, man, I just wanna, well, I just want to have a Saturday night here. Yeah.

[A]

And you could tell Cam was like, ah, you know, I don't want to be part of that. Like he dapped him up and he was like, but, and, and look, it was a win that they desperately needed, that Ja was not a part of, that he made about him. Which, you know, and another thing, Clay said after saying how much he respected the grit and grind Grizzlies on this one, he said they just talk a lot. They've always talked a lot and never really backed it up either. So I don't really respect that. I respect guys who back up the talk with play because talk is cheap.

[B]

And well, some of the talkers aren't there anymore. But.

[A]

Right, but, but Ja's always been the primary one. And hey, Ja was an ascending superstar who ever since we find in the west, it has been one disappointment after another off the court and off on the court. I mean, for, for Ja to be barking and trying to show up a guy who's a four time champion. Klay Thompson will win more champions than John might win playoff series in his career. It's. It's four to one championships to playoff series victories right now. Like, I'm sorry but like you, John Moran does not have the right to try to show up a guy like Klay Thompson. I guess he has the right. He has the right to make a fool of himself, but that's what you're doing in that situation. And for, for Ja to even, even be talking about Clay's current state on the court. Look at Jaw's numbers this year.

[C]

The guy shooting our buddy Tom Habit, our buddy Tom Hab had the stat, which is since Clay came back from both tearing his Achilles and his acl, he's played in more games than Ja. Yeah, that says all you need to know about the state.

[A]

Well, if you know, okay, the suspensions are one thing, they are jaw hurting jaw. But whatever the injuries, you can call it unfortunate. But even when he's on the floor, when, when Ja's been on the floor this year, he's been terrible. And so why are you deciding that when your team pulls out a desperately needed win over a bad Mavericks team on a Saturday night that you feel like it's time for you to go taunt a first ballot hall of Famer, who's that helping?

[B]

Well, it was an enjoyable evening after that for us. Yeah. All right. Well, on Friday, Bontemps had an interesting story where he talked to folks around the league. And what would you say this was the one thing that you sort of got one sentence about all 30 teams.

[C]

Based on one lesson I've learned about each of the 30 teams in the league over the first month of the season.

[A]

And you know, it wasn't one sentence bomb. Timps is incapable of doing one sentence at a time.

[C]

One sentence would have been a lot easier. I was encouraged to not worry about length. So he did wrote plenty.

[B]

Well, there's a couple that you have here that you know, the one you had on Memphis, by the way, was lesson after one month is that John Morant isn't the same player and you know, he's got this calf injury.

[C]

Well, the stat on that that I think is very telling is every single year of Jaw's career he has shot less of a lower percentage of his shots at the rim. Every single year from his first year till now. It was 33% his rookie year. It's down to 15% now. And by the way, he's shooting 17% from three. So like that's just not a very good player. And what's probably going to be a theme of the pod, there's been a lot of discussion about what's John Morant's future. Why is anyone rushing to trade for John Morant? Like there's. To me there's little reason to. You're talking about a guy who is owed a bunch of money the next couple years, is hurt a lot and is a formerly explosive guard who's not that explosive, who can't shoot. Set aside the rest of it. That's not a very appealing player to go trade for.

[A]

There's been no improvement on the jump shot. There's just been an increasing reliance on it. And that's why I like I'm having fun with the just average, just abysmal stuff. But seriously, if he's not an elite pain attacker, he's not a difference maker in a positive direction.

[C]

He's 36% from the field this season.

[A]

He was a dominant force because he was as good as any guard in the league at attacking the cracks of a defense, getting in the paint and just making things happen. Whether it was attacking the paint and spraying out or Attacking the paint and going up and finishing. He used to be the best in the league at that and it's something he does. He has said himself he doesn't want to do it anymore. Oh, I get hurt. Well, okay. If you're going to go out there being worried about getting hurt like you're on a match contract, that's a terrible contract then.

[B]

Well, the Grizzlies, I should say, have won two in a row because last week before they went to Dallas, they beat the Kings at home by 41. And Ja was obviously out for that game, as was Jaren Jackson.

[A]

The King's also out in Dallas.

[C]

We'll see how Memphis, we'll see how Memphis does Monday at home against Denver.

[B]

Yeah, so the Kings had lost, I think eight in a row. They come back and win Saturday at home. They finally came home and beat the Denver Nuggets in a, I guess a get back game for.

[C]

Well, the game was in, the game was in Denver, but it was the second night of, it was the second night of a back to back for the Nuggets without Aaron Gordon and Christian Brown.

[A]

And both of those guys are going to be up for a while. The Nuggets have some serious challenges.

[B]

Yeah, we'll talk about the. Yeah, we'll talk about the Nuggets in a second. Yes. So I will say that you know your line on the Kings here, Bon Temps was less than. After one month, it's time to start over. And so the Kings did come back and win on Saturday in Denver. That finished this five game road trip which has been, it was rough for them and it was, will you call it a Denver a, you know, a comeback or game or return game for Russell Westbrook? He had a great game. He had 21 points, 11 assists.

[C]

He was, he was also minus 13 and 30 minutes in a game. They won by five. That's true all the way around.

[B]

Yeah, he had a, you know, he could claim victory.

[C]

No, he certainly could. No question.

[B]

And, and he, and he did more.

[A]

Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[B]

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[A]

Also, can you trade him if while.

[C]

He'S hurt you know, again, let's, I mean, could you trade him if he's not hurt? I think the answer is no.

[A]

And then, and when he asked me, can they trade Zach Levine? Well, how does that Levine end up in Sacramento? But after a year and a half of the Bulls trying very hard to trade him, Sacramento finally was the team that was willing to, to make a deal for him. You know, derosen well, and he was.

[C]

And he was the make weight. Levine was the make weight with a couple of first round picks in a de' Aaron Fox trade. So it was really, yeah, yeah, we'll get in Zach Levine with multiple first round picks and like, that's the return for de' Aaron Fox, which I think in a vacuum, if they were making a deer and Fox trade, anywhere was a fine return. But to your point, McMahon, what? There's not a market to turn around and turn Zach Levine into stuff. There's no market to turn Damon Sabonis into stuff. There's not much of a market to turn DeMar DeRozan into stuff like DeMar DeRozan. They are just stuck.

[B]

DeRozan has, he makes 25 million and he's non guaranteed next year. That's a trade that's more of a tradable contract than Levine.

[C]

It's more tradable than those guys making the money that they're making. But I still would argue that there's a pretty limited market for demar services.

[B]

I would agree, but it's an easier trade. Zach Levine has a $49 million player option for next year. Yeah, that's, that's just a, it's a tough sell in Sabonis for, for quite a few years was on a contract where he was outperforming. He was making the all star team several times on a submax contract. Well, when the Kings renegotiated and extended his contract two years ago, you know, when you talk to, you know, GMs and stuff, they're like, yeah, you know, Sabonis is a really good player, but he's not, he's not on a good contract anymore. Like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In fact, I was talking to a GM the other day and he's like, he's like, you media people. I see you guys thinking these, you know, he's like, you talk about these guys with contracts like they, on their old contracts, they, they, you know, I'm not going to say, I'm not going to say any more of that, but he cited Sabonis as a classic example. He's like, yeah, he's A fine, he's a fine player, but he's, I'm sure.

[C]

Larry Marketen was part of that discussion also, which I would guess is the other player that's part of that. And it. Look, I think one thing that I think the fans have not and I, I don't know how much the sport has caught up with is, is guys making a lot of money, like north of $40 million are going to be really hard to trade. And just in general, the, the market for those guys is not what it, what, what it is. When you look at the names on the back of the jersey, I would point to the Kevin Durant trade where Kevin Durant got traded for two. Dylan Brooks is a starter. I think you can argue whether Jalen Green's a starter. It's a toxic negative slash, toxic contract. And they got a lottery pick. Carl Towns got traded for two better players and Dante DiVincenzo and Julius Randle and a worst pick like that's even Jimmy Butler.

[A]

And now the point is, I think the point there is it's not that guys on those big contracts won't get traded, but unless it is a Giannis, I would say a Luca, but they didn't get that much of a.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

They at least, least got an all. I got a frontline all Star. I mean, he's been injured, but I.

[A]

Mean, my point is there's a short list of guys that would get the kind of what we've been trained to recognize as the superstar trade return. Yeah, but I think much, I think the KD's is much more like when the Mavericks trade Anthony Davis, a KD from the Suns type of return is.

[B]

You can draw a line of demarcation after Mikhail Bridges. Right. Like in the era of four firsts for Rudy Gobert and three firsts and players for Donovan Mitchell.

[C]

I would even back up because there's a very significant difference in the Mikhail Bridges trade. He was making $20 million. Like the guys, the line of demarcation here is expensive. Veteran star players, guys who are big name players who you think, oh, Anthony Davis is a prime example. We're going to talk about it later. But like you hear Anthony Davis, he just got traded for Luka Doncic. There's all this and McMahon was the first to report the Mavericks are looking at the possibility of trading Anthony Davis. I talked about this in the summertime. They have to trade Anthony Davis. In my opinion, they have to get out of this money. He's owed $54 million this year. He's owed $58 million next year. He's owed $62 million the following year. They have to move on from him. However, a guy making that much money, even Anthony Davis, who is still a very good player, has a very limited market of teams that are going to be able to take him, let alone give you back any value. And that's where it's going to be difficult for the Mavericks to make a trade.

[B]

But I do think that makes this more interesting for the league because if his price is not that quote unquote high, it brings contenders into the market for him.

[C]

I would disagree with that because.

[A]

Nuh, I agree with that. Said as much on the hit YouTube show Howdy Partners last week with Michael C. Wright. Okay, but seriously, like Anthony Day, it's always a.

[C]

Big contenders can't. But contenders can't take on that money. That's the problem.

[A]

How do you define contender in the Eastern Conference? I think we can get in the semantics of that, but there are a handful of Eastern Conference teams that I can talk myself into in the right deal. Anthony Davis being a potential difference maker in terms of them being able to make a run out of the Eastern Conference.

[C]

Okay, so Detroit's the obvious one. Who else would you put in that group?

[A]

I could talk myself into Atlanta. I could easily talk.

[C]

I, I don't. I don't see Atlanta doing Atlanta. I don't see Atlanta taking on that kind of number for the next two years and going way into the tax for Anthony Davis. I don't. Especially where they could potentially have the number one pick in the draft coming next year, which is going to be another. By the way, have you guys been.

[B]

Paying attention to Derek Queen?

[C]

Derek Queen's a very talented player.

[A]

When I saw him. Hey, how about.

[C]

And the Pelicans keep on losing ball games.

[A]

They do. And he had. They, they like him a lot in Atlanta, but they didn't like him at the end of the game the other night. They like him because he's, you know, that trade is going to deliver a high lottery pick. They didn't like him with like 15 seconds left as the Hawks are driven out the clock, sneaking in from behind, stealing it, going coast to coast for a dunk.

[C]

That was amazing.

[A]

Also a little post game brouhaha there. All right, well, what about your role in Toronto Raptors, you know, what about the Miami Heat? I'm just saying I could tell all the Heat.

[C]

All right, hold on.

[B]

I can hold on.

[C]

I will address one of those if you want.

[B]

Hold on. Bond temps less than after one month. Chicago Bulls, they could be a potential trade destination.

[A]

That's rip to me.

[C]

Well, listen, here's what I would say. If you're the Bulls, like the kind of deal that I think would make some sense for Anthony Davis is if you're the Bulls, if you could get Anthony Davis for expiring money and getting rid of Patrick Williams with your pick, if you're going to be a playoff team, I can understand doing that trade.

[A]

I, I think, I'm just saying like they better than that to me. I think the Mavericks have to push for a better deal than that.

[C]

Well, they could push for it, but I, I'm not sure. Like Miami, for example. I don't, I don't know if Miami is taking on Anthony Davis in two years at $63 million.

[A]

Well, and then Miami, we, we don't know. And the league is not. From the reporting I've seen, the league has not come down on one side or other. Can Miami trade Terry Rosier's contract?

[B]

Right.

[A]

As far as throw into a deal?

[C]

Right.

[B]

But again, I do not believe there's been an official edict on that.

[C]

Yeah, I don't, I don't think there's clarity on that.

[B]

But, but I would again, like I would say you should know. I mean, you shouldn't. I think he's supposedly in court on Monday. I think those guys are supposed to do in court in the next week. You should know that. You know, there's some strings that come attached with trading for a guy under federal indictment. I just want.

[A]

Not if, not if you wave the physical and he never steps foot in your locker room.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm just saying he is an expiring contract.

[C]

It is an interesting situation. But like again, like Toronto for example, Right. Toronto could give you some combination of Emmanuel Quickley and RJ Barrett and Jakob Pearl. But again, if you're Dallas and you're looking at being right now a team that's going to be costing you near 4,400 million dollars next year, whatever Anthony Davis trade you make has to save you a lot of money next year. A trade with Toronto is only bringing you back as much or more money. And then you're stuck in the same situation without Anthony Davis.

[B]

Players aren't as good as well.

[A]

And an AD trade you've got. If you're the Mavericks, a good AD trade provides some significant financial relief next year. That's where you're talking about expiring contracts and something that can be of value moving forward in the Cooper Flag era, preferably multiple picks. That's probably going to be tough at picking a swap and at least a young player who, you know, you can see as a rotation player long term that that to me is the ideal Anthony Davis deal. And it's not going to be something that excites people, but that's the kind of business the Mavericks will be, I believe, looking to do.

[C]

Yeah, I mean that's. And that I think is exactly the kind of trade that's realistic in some form. But again, this is a guy that just got traded for Luka Doncic. Like, that's the, that's the problem is.

[A]

That is currently unemployed and you know.

[C]

No, I get it.

[A]

Screwed that up. That's.

[C]

I get it. But like the idea of trading Anthony Davis, like you said it perfectly earlier, McMahon, the idea of trading Anthony Davis has everyone trained to think, well, they're going to get three firsts and two swaps and they're going to get two good young players and they're going to get all this stuff. It's not going to, I shouldn't say it's not going to happen because as we keep saying, the Luca trade happened. So sure, like, it's like the corollary. You always have to add everything now that something crazy could happen. But you talk to people in the league. There's not a lot of teams that are lining up to take on a 35 year old Anthony Davis making $63 million. Like, and you have to assume he's going to opt into that deal. So a lot of this is going to be, can Dallas find someone willing to, to take on the money? If the answer is yes, then you go to, okay, if they're taking on the money, what are they sending out? And that's where, like you look at Atlanta, like Atlanta's done a good job stacking these contracts. They're not, they obviously don't have a deal done with Trey Young yet who's making less money because they haven't come to an agreement on something that makes sense for him. Are they going to take on Anthony Davis, who's making way more than Trae Young, will be to have him on their books for the next two years? I, I don't think so.

[A]

Trey Young quasi expiring contract.

[C]

Yes. But again, it's like Atlanta's, Atlanta's been mindful of their books, I think as of now. And that's again, like AD's making, you know, $10 million more than Trey. Like, it's just that number is so big. It's really hard for a lot of teams, especially in season to take that money on right now. And that's where it's, it's, it's going to be a challenge for any of these big name players that you think about for the next three months or going even going forward into the off season and beyond. Like the Kevin Durant trade, I think was a canary in the coal mine for what you should expect these kinds of deals to look like going forward. And I think it's going to be a much different financial system in the league and it's going to, I think, take a while for people to really recalibrate that in this Anthony Davis situation in Dallas. It's like, I mean the Luca trade just keeps being more painful for Mavericks fans. But like whatever the outcome on this 80 thing is, eventually it's not going to be, I wouldn't think, a trade that's going to be a feel good trade.

[A]

I've never understood canary in a coal mine. Like what's the issue?

[B]

Because if there was poisonous gas in a coal mine, you would. You send a canary down there and if the canary dies, it's like, you know, it's an indica or there's, or you keep a canary down. If the canary dies, it's an indication that there's something bad about to happen.

[A]

And it's why the canary.

[B]

But I don't know, they use the canary. They use the canary. This is what they used to do. Not necessarily a coal mine, but a mine in general.

[A]

I thought the canary might be the messenger, but no, the poor canary is a sacrificial canary.

[B]

It's like, you know, it's like the beginning of, of a trend. The canary in the coal mine, am I saying that correctly, Mr. Sand?

[C]

You are, that is correct.

[B]

For the Miami Heat, you said less than after one month. Last year was no fluke for Norman Powell should point out that Norm Friend of The pod had 32 points on Sunday. The Heat won their fourth consecutive game. They are beginning Tyler Hero back on Monday's game against the Mavericks. Yeah, you know, the Heat have been up and down because of the injuries. Not just to a hero, but also to Bam Adebayo. But Eric Spoelstra playing a system with sort of the new, the new age system. Forget about the pick and rolls and play high tempo. They're. I don't know if they're leading the league in possessions, but if they're not leading it, they're in the top three playing high speed and it's designed for a team that doesn't have a ball dominant star, which I don't know if you classify Hero as that, so that'll be interesting. But.

[C]

No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I think it's, I think it'll be a really good fit for him too. And I, I would say that there's. We've talked a lot about how it's a really good fit for Jaime Hawkez, who's had a really, really good year for them off the bench, is a six man contender. But the way he's played early on, it's also a perfect fit for Norm Powell. And like he's a guy who's like, you watch the Heat play, they're moving the ball, a guy gets an open shot, they have a green light to take it and if they have a matchup to attack and a straight line drive, they can attack it. And Norm has been a perfect fit for the way they've played and has been awesome. And again, like you go back to the summer, like getting Norm Powell for Kevin Love and Kyle Anderson, like, again, like there wasn't a ton of interest in Norm for a variety of reasons. You know, guard position is, well, he wanted an extension. But also like that combo guard position has kind of been a, a weird spot in terms of finances around the league. And like that's not a position that we've seen a lot of guys getting paid a lot out of, which is part of why Norm was available. But from a talent standpoint, it was a big upgrade. And the way they've shifted their offense, it's been a, an absolutely seamless fit. And he has been flat out awesome, dude.

[A]

His production is ridiculous. In barely 30 minutes a game, 30 and a half minutes a game, he's averaging 25.4 points with a true shooting percentage of 65.8 completely. By the way, they are the fastest paced team in the league by over two possessions per game. But, and he is, this is a system designed to play fast, so you know you're going to keep the minutes down. But they're playing fast and they are attacking and he is perfect fitting into that.

[C]

And he shoots seven threes a game at 46%. I mean he's just been, he's been awesome. And that's why with Bam Adebayo out for a chunk of time and Tyler Hero not playing at all, these guys are 11 and 6, like a lot of it. I mean, obviously they've had a lot of guys play well, but a lot of it comes out at Norm being flat out awesome and picking up that scoring load for them. Well, these guys have been out and, you know, now they can have him and Tyler here out there together. And I, I think it's got a chance to be really fun to watch.

[B]

Okay, this one got McMahon's. You know. You know, McMahon's eyebrows sometimes tell the story, you know, on the pod you can't always tell, but in person you can tell what you learned or one lesson. After one month, Giannis Antennokounmpo has been the NBA's MVP.

[A]

He's been a. He's a legitimate candidate, but like, how you can just definitively say Giannis has been the MVP is like, there's a lot of guys that are doing insane things. Including the guy who won it last year, who never plays in the fourth quarter, is averaging 30 some odd points per game. For a team that's lost a game.

[B]

One singular game, they went to 17 and 1. Today they beat the Blazers by like 27.

[A]

They are, they are 11, 6 and 1. Eleven times they've won. When Shea sat out the fourth quarter, six times they won when he actually had to play in the fourth quarter, and one time they lost. That's what they're the they. We should define their record by those columns.

[B]

Now wasn't that on the second night of the back to back?

[C]

Yeah, Sacramento.

[A]

No, no, it was to Portland who they smoked tonight. And the first night of that back to back. I saw him the night before when they beat the Clippers to go to eight. No, which is the, you know, the best starting OKC chapter of the franchise history. But it was one of those. I don't want to badmouth Peacock, but the 8 o' clock Pacific tips. Oh, man, that. Those are, those are. That's too much. Eight o'. Clock. So it was a late tip.

[C]

Says the guy in the central time zone.

[A]

It's 10 o' clock even.

[C]

Yes, it's an hour later in the eastern time zone.

[A]

Anyways, that's all. So not only was it a back to back, but it was a back to back. They didn't leave the arena until after midnight. Then they had to get on a plane and go up to Portland.

[B]

Can I give you a Mitchell update just while we're here?

[C]

Wait.

[A]

I just want to add one thing about their one loss. They led by 22 and Portland tracked him down and won by a bucket.

[B]

Just in case you wanted to know how A.J. mitchell did on Sunday. You know, Shea had 37 points in 30 minutes, you know, 13 of 18, nine of nine at the line, you know, plus 27 A.J. mitchell, he played 24 minutes. He was eight of eight from the field, two of two from three. 20 points plus 24 in 24 minutes. Just thought I'd brief you on that little scenario.

[A]

Yeah, and look, I'm not saying Giannis, like.

[B]

By the way, why wasn't the lesson after one month on. On the Thunder? 70 wins is in play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about how A.J. mitchell should be? Maybe I was wrong with Zubotch. Maybe I should have talked about A.J. mitchell.

[A]

NBA, I was gonna say. Well, if you're talking about the list of MVP camps, we gotta get AJ Mitchell on there.

[B]

Hey, he's gonna be an All Star.

[A]

Weekend as a sophomore for sure.

[C]

You would think so.

[A]

Luke is averaging roughly 35, nine and nine for a. A, a team that's winning. Shay, 32 points in 33 minutes. The other numbers are great for 17 and one team. Joker is. All he's. All he's doing is going for 30, 13 and 11 for a 12.

[C]

All these guys are really awesome. I mean, what's the name of the award?

[B]

Bontempka?

[A]

It's not the NRSPC network.

[C]

The name is Most Valuable Player. And if you take. Not again. All these guys are awesome. We'll see who wins. The award is. As I said in the story, when you take Giannis off the court, the Bucks go from having the best offense in the league to. To the worst offense in the league, and they go from being plus, like 8 to minus 12.

[B]

Listen, their record. Why, forget about advanced stats. They're out of the playoffs right now.

[C]

And you look in the two games they played without. Yes, they're in 11th. To go back to our conversation the other day about the depth of the Eastern Conference, they're 500. They're out of the. Out of the play and out of the plane. Currently in the East. And if you look at their roster, the last two games they played without him, they shot 4, 40% from three. In both games, they lost to a Philly team with half their team out in overtime, albeit Tyrese Maxey had to have a huge game. But their offensive rating while shooting 40% from the field was 105, which is again, about dead last in the league. And then they got annihilated by the Pistons. And then they got annihilated by the Pistons in their last game, and they again shot a bunch of threes and hit 40% over 40% of their threes.

[A]

Throw Cade Cunningham in the MVP conversation. Look, dude, don't. Don't do the straw poll because The MVP is just net ratings.

[C]

No more straw poll. I think, again, you can quibble with the. The. The headline of the Lesson, but the lesson learned about the Bucks was if Giannis isn't on the court, they're one of the worst teams in the league.

[A]

It took you a month of the season to figure that out?

[C]

Well, I'm just saying, if you look at how they've played out, like, I'm sure the Bucks came into the season arguing they had ways to prop their team up around Giannis and they were going to be okay when he didn't play, but, like, I didn't think they were going to be that good when he didn't play. And that's been backed up by how it's looked on the court, where Giannis has been unbelievable. And when he's played, they've been very good, and when he hasn't played, they've been very bad. And now he's going to be out for a while, and it's probably going to keep looking very bad, because I would say outside of probably Brooklyn and Washington, not sure there's another team. I'd take over them without Giannis. Cause the rest of the roster is pretty rough.

[A]

You take the Pelicans over them.

[C]

I mean, the problem with the Bucks is the Bucks have. I would actually probably say the Pelicans would win only because the Bucks don't have. The Bucks have Ryan Rollins, who can create shots for other guys somewhat, and they don't really have anybody else at the moment, like, man, give the ball to Kuzma. But, like, it's just not. They have a lot of good shooters, and they've hit shots in these games, and they might be able to steal some wins hitting threes, but it's just there, the team is built to have Giannis at the middle of it with shooters around him. If you take Giannis away, there really is no plan B.

[B]

Well, I understand your case, but I don't think he's the.

[A]

The Nuggets are only 19.9 points worse for 100 possessions offensive.

[B]

So less than after one month late season. Jamal Murray has arrived early, which. This came out Friday before. Yeah, before we knew that Aaron Gordon had a grade two hamstring strain, which four to six weeks before being reevaluated.

[C]

Man, you're talking to. You're talking two months plus.

[A]

Well, and Christian Brown is out for six weeks or so. Like, the Nuggets are really. And they, you know, they. They improve their depth, but, you know, they're. They're not that deep. I mean they're starting Spencer Jones right now.

[C]

Well, he's been pretty interesting by the way. Spencer.

[A]

Okay, I don't want. Fine. Pretty interesting as your 10th man is a good place for him.

[B]

Well, Peyton Watson, who didn't get a contract extension, first round pick from three years ago, didn't get a contract extension, switched agencies, is now going to be getting a lot more minutes and so far this year he's shooting 51% overall, not shooting a ton of threes. And that's sort of the thing with him is he doesn't shoot a ton of threes but his percentage is pretty good. He's rebounding better than he has ever in his career. Again, it's not great. He's not going to be Aaron Gordon. He's not going to have that lob threat that Aaron Gordon is. But he is a 6, 8, 3 and D player who now with, with, with money on the line is going to get for the next one to two months a lot more playing time. This could be good. This could be good.

[A]

He's a 6, 8, you hope 3 and D player. Definitely. He's a good defensive player who. Let's see if he's a 3 and D player. The 3 is, is questionable but he's a nice reserve who is probably going to be above his head starting and maybe you're right, is a project who's going to be above his head starting.

[B]

Maybe you're right and maybe this is a moment for him.

[C]

Well, I don't think, I mean this is the. To me, the conversation to be had is that Jamal Murray has had the best start of his career by a mile. Like if you look at his monthly splits over the course of his career, his opening month has been pretty rough and he's played like anybody who's talked to anybody around the league or watched for years. It's not like it's easy to see. Jamal plays his way into the season and he showed up this year is what you're saying. Well, yes, but he showed up this year ready to go and he's been awesome and with no Christian Brown for weeks, months, probably the. At least with the initial timeline we were given. And again, if you say Aaron Gord's getting reevaluated with a hamstring injury in four to six weeks, that's a eight to 12 week injury probably. So you're talking two, three months till he's ready, really ready to go. So you like? Yes. They need Peyton Watson to play, they need Spencer Jones to play. They need Cam Johnson to play better. He finally has had a couple good games lately after a really rough start. He's got to be a lot better. But they need Jamal Murray to keep playing like this. If Jamal Murray keeps playing like this with Jokic playing out of his mind, they can keep up. But if to this point they have any issue with that, it's a struggle. They're going to be struggling to this point.

[B]

Career high in scoring, career high in assists.

[C]

And a lot of that's because his numbers, like if you go look at his monthly splits for his career, they tend to go up as the season goes along, month by month by month. And this year he came in at like the end of the season numbers. So even if he just stays flat all the way through, it's going to be very important for Denver because they, you know, they've, they've gotten off to a really good start and you know, staying up there in two or three in the west is imperative because it means you avoid playing the the juggernaut.

[A]

Until the conference finds well and, and Joker. The two man game between Joker and Jamal Murray is definitely good enough to prop them up. The prime mayor. Like you're gonna, you're gonna be asking Joker to be a superhero night in and night out. You're not gonna be able to manage his minutes the way that you wanted to. The good news is for the next month, they do have a pretty soft stretch of schedule. I'm looking at it right now. It's like Memphis, the Spurs who have their own injury issues. Suns, Mavs, Pacers, Hawks, Hornets. You know, there's a, there's another Utah's on there, you know, so there's like it, you know, it's a, it's a soft next month, but the biggest concern is wearing Joker down, right? Which they did last year. They had to shut Joker down for a while.

[B]

That was the whole point was to the part of the part of what's been so impressive about his season, which has been jaw dropping as we've talked about, is his, his minutes are down, his production is up with his minutes down. That's, you know.

[A]

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[B]

What you said about the Lakers on here your your Lakers less than after one month was personified tonight Sunday night bond temps they're good, but how good? So they won their fourth consecutive game on Sunday night. They also were up by 11 against the Jazz and had in the last three minutes and had to survive Keonte George a three pointer in the air at the buzzer which missed and the and the Lakers squeak out of Salt Lake with a two point win. They I think all things considered it's remarkable that they're 12 and 4 and after tonight they are now 8 and 2 on the road which is just awesome in the Western Conference. And you know they had an east coast road trip already but that is getting it done. But the question is like you look at tonight's game, you know it's a win but you know this is what's kind of happened with the Lakers. Their, their defense isn't that impressive. Their, their advanced stats aren't that impressive. So like they sh. They, they have to be thrilled with their positioning. But I'm not so sure how much we believe in their, in their, you know, that they're going to stay stay on this level.

[A]

Well, we have to have, we have to, we have to find out really not even as find out how much of an impact LeBron can make once he gets in shape. Mike tonight his counting numbers are okay. You know, 17 points, six rebounds, eight assists. Didn't shoot it. Great. But minus 14, the box score. And I can tell you LeBron is playing transition defense like most dudes his age do, which is occasionally like, I'm just like, you know, he talked about what he tell Mac 10 and. And the crew. Something about getting his. He's got his baby lungs now. He's got his. Get his grown man lungs. Like, seriously, there are many positions where he's not. Not only.

[B]

I think it's the opposite. I think his lungs are too old and he needs him to be younger. Not younger. It needs him to be old.

[A]

Well, whatever it is, he ain't crossing half court on a lot of defensive possessions.

[C]

We'll see.

[A]

He's obviously, he, he wasn't able to train while he's doing the sciatica like he usually does. He's got to get in shape and then we'll find out.

[C]

Well, and to your point about their schedule, like, they are winning these road games, which is important. However, here are their road games. At Sacramento, at Minnesota. That was the Reeves game where you hit the game winner, not Luka. And you're at Memphis. At Memphis, at Portland, at Atlanta, which was the game they got. They, they lost by 20.

[B]

Nobody played for Atlanta and was.

[C]

Yes. And they lost by 20 at Charlotte. Then the Thunder game, obviously, which didn't go great. And, and then at New Orleans, at Milwaukee with no Giannis and at Utah. So now listen, they're winning the games. They. Again, it goes back to the same thing. They have won a lot of games and they've beaten a lot of teams they should beat. Like, that sounds like an insult, but it's not an insult. When you're going through the 82 game schedule. Like, a very important thing to do is to win the games you're supposed to win and not lose a game in Salt Lake City or lose to like the warriors lost to the Pacers on the road. They lost to the Milwaukee Bucks without Giannis on the road. You know, they've, they, you know, they've had a lot of really disappointing losses this year. That's why they're 500. The Lakers have not had those losses as well. The Lakers are 12 and 4. Like, that's the difference is taking care of business in those games. And Austin Reeves has been great. Luke has been great. As you said, McMahon. Let's see where LeBron is at. But like, are the, are the Lakers really a top four team in the West? Are they really up there with Denver and Houston? Because I don't think anybody's With Oklahoma City or are they really more like the 5th or 6th or 7th ish team in the west? And you know, like, like you said, they're around 5. They're around 15th in offense or around 15th in defense. They're around around 15th net rating. They're like all the numbers scream. They're kind of an average team.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But they've also had injuries and they've also won a lot of games. They should win. So you know, they're probably going to be in the cup, assuming they could beat the Clippers on Tuesday into the cup playoffs. So we'll see what happens there. But you know, as always with the Lakers, once you get past the new year, the schedule starts to ramp up.

[B]

And they start to play 500k.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So.

[C]

But after New Year's when the Lakers start to have their schedule go up and they start to play a lot of the TV games and every year the schedule's backloaded for them. So we'll find out more about them. But I certainly think when you, you look at where they're at to be 12 and four with the injuries they've had and sort of the up and down nature of their season, whatever the schedule, you have to look at it as a big win. And now we'll start to see over the next month, you know, just what level they are.

[B]

I do not expect you guys to guess this player. I'm just going to.

[A]

Oh, I'm good at these.

[B]

I know you are. This is a pretty high standard. 22 points a game, 10 rebounds, seven assists, just under two steals, 57% from the field, 41% from three.

[A]

Jalen Johnson.

[B]

Who?

[A]

Jalen Johnson.

[B]

Jalen Johnson is correct.

[A]

Dude, I, I want to start less.

[B]

Than after one month. There might be a blueprint for the post Trey Young era.

[A]

Well, less than after one month. You. I'm damn good at these things.

[B]

That, I mean, that is actually pretty good. That was a pretty, you know, that was.

[A]

I mean there's not too many guys going 22, 10 and 7.

[C]

And the, the key one there is shooting 57% because Jalen Johnson is getting a lot of dunks. There was a play in the game against New Orleans where he blocked a shot at the rim, went coast to coast and yammed it at the other end. And like he is a six, nine, hyper athletic guy. He slipped in the draft to 19 or 20, wherever Atlanta took him. Ended up leaving Duke early the year he came out of the draft. Hawks got him on what, like not much of a spoiler Alert. But when I do the best contract team story later this year.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Jalen Johnson at $30 million a year at a power forward spot where there are not a lot of obvious candidates around the league. I suspect he will be the starter at that position because he looks like an all star and with Trey out, he's got the ball in his hands all the time and they are big and physical everywhere. Their defense is really good and you know, we'll see what happens with Trey going forward and whether they get a deal done with him or not. But you could see a vision for what the Hawks can be if he's not there, which is long, athletic and you know, a really good top five level defensive team with an all star six nine wing with the ball in his hands, making plays and scoring well.

[A]

And we talk about like we mentioned Amin Thompson as maybe the best athlete in the NBA. Jalen Johnson's the guy who's in that conversation. He's that type of athlete. But it's the skill development and it's still a pretty small sample size. The 41.5% 3 point shooting. We will see if that holds up. But the playmaker. I'm just going to read you his assist per game numbers throughout the course of his career. Rookie 0.1, you know, barely played 1.2, 3.6, 5.0. Unfortunately last season was cut short but you could really see it starting to develop there. 7.0 this year. And it's interesting, you know, I've kind of been poking around about potential jot Trey Lamello ball. You know, what, what people perceive as their value or what their markets might be should their teams decide each other, you know, perhaps, you know, should, should the teams decide to go in that direction. You know, just trying to get a feel for it. And something one person said to me as well, if Atlanta trades Trey, they've got to get a ball handle primary ball handler in return and you know, kind of to your point here, Bondemps. Are you sure about that? Do they.

[C]

Well, especially, especially with that pick coming from the Pelicans which could be that ball handler, whether it's Darren Peterson or AJ DeBancer or you know, Mikhail Brown from Louisville or you know, like there's, there's a lot of guys in the top eight or 10 in the draft who can handle it quite a bit and you know, are also all big and long and like fit into this vision of what this team in theory is headed towards. So I mean it's, it's been a very interesting thing to watch. And again, their schedule hasn't been extraordinarily difficult either in these games without Trey. You know, if you, if you go through and you look at who they've played over the last few weeks, you know, they're Sacramento, Utah, they lost to Detroit and San Antonio, they beat New Orleans and Charlotte, they lost to Cleveland, they lost to Toronto. You know, so they've, they've been up and down to some degree. But there is a real, you could see a blueprint and you could see a foundation of what it can be. And it, you know, like you said, it makes the Trey Young conversation an interesting one to monitor to see whether he picks up that option or what his future looks like in Atlanta. Because you can for the first time in a long time see something without him there.

[B]

All right. The clippers fell to five and 12 on Sunday after losing in Cleveland. The good news was Kawhi came back and actually looked pretty good in the 26 minutes he played at 20 points. At three out of five on threes, Zubac kicked the Cavs on the interior. They were missing Jared Allen in that game. Zubac had 18, 18 rebounds and went 15 to 22 from the field. Look like an all NBA player in this game. But unfortunately, hey, I was watching Cavs corner and you know, they were getting dominated by him. Donovan at 37 though. But anyway, the Clippers have had a tough road trip there. 2 and 4 on their seven game trip. They used to get to come home. They play at the Lakers to finish the road trip in the cup game on Tuesday. On Tuesday. Bottemps lesson after one month is you can get old fast in the NBA. And look, all I'm going to say is one guy broke his hip and another guy retired a month into the season, which is what Chris Paul is going to do at the conclusion of the year. And you know, as a quick, you know, note, I just want to say that Chris Paul has had an absolutely amazing career. This is, this is not this. What happens this season is probably going to be forgotten.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, I mean he's one of the best point guards of all time and a first ballot inner circle hall of.

[A]

Fame and incredible retirement tour. I wonder if he regrets playing this season because it would have been a pretty damn just because he is one of the most ruthless competitors I've ever encountered. And it would have been something for him to go out as an 82 game starter last year for a team that he helped lift to at least respectability, I was going to say.

[C]

And a Guy who was pretty good for the, for the spurs too. And you know, watching, watching the Clippers play. I saw them in Philly the other day and it was ironic to me to see them playing the Clippers or the Clippers playing the Sixers the other day because they remind me a lot of last year's Sixers team where they had a lot of veteran players that they brought in that they thought could, you know, come in and be good for them for last season. And they all got old at the same time and that's kind of how the Clippers feel. I mean Bradley Beal obviously did not replace Norm Powell in any way, shape or form like we thought. Chris Paul was very good last year in San Antonio. Like he was a net positive easily for the Spurs. I thought he was going to be able to come in and give them good minutes behind James Harden and play 10, 15 minutes a game and like be a useful player off the bench. He's been awful. You know, they just across a. Brook Lopez I thought was a good signing. He has looked very old. Like they just look very old and very slow. And when you watch the way the league is evolving and how fast the game is and how all these teams with youth and depth are having success, it. It just feels like they have gone the other way and it's caught em all at once. And that's without getting into the, you know, all the ups and downs of Kawhi and everything off the court and beyond that we should say though, while they have been terrible, James Harden has been unbelievable.

[B]

He's, he's, he's playing his, I mean he's not. His efficiency is down from where it was when he was at his peak. But he is, he's playing every night and he's trying as hard as he.

[C]

Can and he's been incredible. I mean he had 55 on Saturday. Then one of their five wins, they beat Charlotte on the road on Saturday. He had 55. He had 27 in the first quarter of that game.

[A]

Hell yeah. He had a 40 something point triple double against the Mavericks in another one of their wins. I mean look. Yeah, he's having to be a superhero for them to beat bad teams.

[C]

It right it to be competitive at all. Like in Philly the other night he had a crazy, he had a crazy line. Yeah. And that Philly. Yeah, Philly, the Philly one wasn't great but he had 37, 7 and 8 the night before in a loss to the, in a loss to Boston. He had 31 and eight in the loss to Orlando the other day, like at 35, 10 and 11 in a loss to Atlanta. I mean he's just put up one Giant game after another and you know it. It's been a rough season for them, but he has been awesome.

[B]

How about this stat? Most 55, 50 point games in NBA history. Okay, Wilts number one. 118. I mean the dude average 50 in one season.

[A]

That's ridiculous.

[B]

Jordan's number two with 31. James Harden is now number three.

[A]

Is he tied with Kobe or did he break that tie?

[B]

He tied Kobe.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, co number three with 25. He also one of eight players in NBA history to simultaneously hold multiple franchises single game scoring records, which he now does with the. He set the Clippers record on Saturday and he holds the. The Rockets as well. This list is fast. Did you guys see this list?

[C]

No. Yes.

[B]

It's a. It's a fascinating list. I don't think you'd ever. You'd ever. Well, Wilt's one of them with the warriors and 76ers.

[C]

Harden's the only guy. Harden's the only guy to do it with two active franchises.

[A]

Okay, who are the other ones?

[B]

In other words? They don't necessarily have the record still. Yes, but at one point we're holding. Okay, give me the list holding them both. Two other players are active. You want to take a guess at the two other active players? And I will tell you, McMahon, that. That, that both of them held the record for the same team.

[A]

LeBron and Kyrie.

[B]

You got it. He's just kicking ass on this.

[A]

Well, I mean that was a pretty easy, like I'm thinking of like damn good scores. And they both have, you know, they.

[C]

Both play for the Cavalry and Donovan happened to score 70 at a game recently, so.

[A]

Yeah. Plus I knew that Kyrie broke LeBron's record for Cleveland. So that one.

[B]

Which was still probably one of the most amazing games I've.

[A]

Ever seen, I would have gone out on a limb and guessed LeBron, regardless of any hints.

[C]

By the way, it's a safe bet.

[B]

Do you even. So Kyrie scored 57. That was the record that Donovan broke when he had 70 a couple years ago. LeBron scored 56, I think in his second year in the league. I mean that was a game in Toronto on Sunday after. On a Sunday afternoon. Anyway, the others are Jamal Mashburn. Oh, one of them was with the Mavericks.

[A]

I remember he had a 50 piece for the Mavs.

[B]

Glenn Rice, Kelly Tripuka.

[A]

Oh, wow. We could have been here all Night. I wouldn't have gotten there.

[B]

Well, and this last one, I don't. I, you know, I would, I would make a Bob Pettit joke here. I'm not even 100%, so I don't know this guy.

[A]

Spit it out.

[B]

He's. He's. What's his name? What? What'd you just say?

[A]

I said spit it out.

[B]

I'm worried about mispronouncing his last name. Don Coljis.

[A]

Please spell it because I'm trying to look him up.

[B]

Is that a K, O, J, I.

[A]

S. Okay, hold on. I'll give you the. They don't have a pronunciation thing on basketball reference.

[B]

I'm kind of embarrassed that I don't. I've never heard this gentleman so. His career scoring record was 12 points a game.

[A]

He was drafted by the Chicago packers but never played with him. He played with a bunch of teams that don't exist anymore.

[B]

Right. I'm sorry, I did. I just did not know this guy. But he apparently at one time held the Bulls and Rockets scoring records.

[A]

The San Diego Rockets a two time all Star for the San Diego Rockets?

[B]

Yes. He played for the Kansas City, Omaha Kings. He played for the Baltimore Bullets, Seattle SuperSonics. I'll bet Bob Pettit kicked his ass.

[A]

He did play. Oh, he did play for the Bulls.

[C]

I think Bob was off the. I think Bob might have been off the.

[A]

Hold on. No, I'm gonna do a little Bob Pet. Hold on. Keep. Keep speaking. I gotta.

[B]

Anyway, he played one year. He played one year for the Bulls and averaged 10 points a game. And apparently in that year set their.

[A]

You're not gonna get any Don Coe, just coverage like you get here on the Hoop Collector. I can tell you.

[B]

That's right. So he had a total coverage point game in against. In LA against the Lakers. The game before he had five points, the game after he had eight. But he had a 42 point game.

[C]

It's like the Tony Delk 50 pointer.

[B]

Amazing. Anyway, that was. I want, I do want to say Chris Paul. He is second all time in assists at a little over 12,500. And I just want to. As I want to honor John Stockton here. Now. Stockton famously got sort of help from the Jazz scores. Having said that, he also played every.

[C]

Game for 20 years.

[B]

That's right. So Chris Paul, who's in his 21st season, I believe he is in second place. He is. He's got 500 more assists than Jason Kidd who was in third and a thousand more assists than LeBron who was in fourth. But he is still 3,000 behind John Stockton. He is closer to Oscar Robertson at ninth than he is to John Stockton at one. And meanwhile, he is also second all time in steals at over 2700. Also just ahead of, of Jason, of Jason Kidd who's third. He is 500 behind John Stockton. And he. That would be about all the way back to 10th. He's closer to Hakeem Elijah wanted 10th than he is to John Stockton at one.

[C]

I don't, I. Those are, those are two that I thought for a long time that those two stats, the steals and assists records all time were not going to get broken. I also thought that the career blocks record was not going to get broken because Akeem is 600 ahead of Dikembe and everybody else. But if the young fella in San Antonio can stay on the court, I think he might be able to catch Akeem. He's getting like five a game.

[B]

Okay, but the. I, I've talked about this in the pod before. About five years ago, I did a story on the most unbreakable NBA records. You know, there's some that are kind of preposterous, such as Chamberlain averaging 48 and a half minutes a game.

[C]

Minutes, yes.

[B]

But if we're talking about career records, I think Moses Malone's offensive rebounds. Yes, Moses Malone combining ABA and NBA, which I think is only fair. He has like 2700 more than second place, which is artist Gilmore. And how about this McMahon. Can you tell me the active offensive rebound leader.

[A]

It ain't Steven Adams.

[B]

It is not.

[C]

I'm going to guess, I'm going to.

[B]

Guess Andre Drummond, 42nd.

[A]

DeAndre Jordan.

[B]

Andre Jordan is 29th, but not 29th all time. But not the active leader.

[C]

I'm going to guess it's Andre Drummond.

[B]

Andre Drummond. So. Andre Drummond. So Moses. So just, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's, it's a stat. Like, so Moses Malone had 7300 offensive rebounds. Artis Gilmore had 4800. He's second. And so you're talking about like he's 3000 ahead of Charles Barkley. He's 3000 ahead of Shaquille O'. Neal. He's 3500 ahead of Dwight Howard. Like Dwight Howard played like what, seven, 16, 17 years was, you know, he had four, 100. Like he's, he's barely halfway there. So I think that record is. But anyway, this is all digression, fellas.

[A]

Bob Pettit went nine and five in his career Against Don Kojas, I believe that's how to pronounce that. And in Those, in those 14 games, Pettit scored 413 points, including a 52 pointer. Old Don went for 89 in a 14 game.

[B]

So, yeah, he, but I taste up that Don could get hot.

[A]

Did not have Bob Pettis number.

[B]

No, Don could get hot.

[A]

Clearly. Clearly.

[B]

I learned who he was today when I saw, when I saw that number.

[A]

Yeah, he's, he's. Oh, no, he passed away a few years back. That's unfortunate.

[B]

Well, he passed away in 20, 21.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, so the point about the, but the, about the Clippers is, is that we're honoring historical numbers. We're certainly not honoring modern numbers, which is they got a bunch of guys who are going to be in Springfield and are hot the top of all these charts, but they're not helping them in 25, 26 that much, even though I know Harden is playing well.

[A]

And you know who they are helping? The damn Oklahoma City Thunder.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I mean, my goodness, how many lottery pick you get, Shea? You get dubbed. You really need another lottery pick out of that deal.

[C]

Well, and it's worth, it's worth pointing out that as of right now, they are still projected to be ninth in the west and one game back of the Suns in eighth.

[A]

Well, and as you said, contrary to what people thought, going in the, the middle of the west is not good. All right. There are, it appears there's eight good teams in the west. Seven or eight better than Suns, by the way, better than six, seven. But you know, seven or eight.

[C]

I knew we were, I knew we were doing that. We got to give the Suns some credit while we were doing the pod. The Suns, Suns with another nice win, beating the, giving the spurs their first loss since Victor got hurt. You know, just, they've, they've done a really nice job. They keep stacking up wins. But yeah, like, you know, the Clippers have a chance to still play it out because a lot of these other teams, like I would say Memphis is better than the Clippers, but I'm not convinced Memphis is going to be trying to be better than the Clippers and Dallas and Sacramento and a lot of these other teams have their pick and have some incentive to make sure they're not as good as they can be.

[A]

Utah's got a wee bit of incentive.

[C]

Speaking about picks, sure, Utah, New Orleans, I mean, New Orleans just isn't very good. But the point is like the Clippers and Suns are the teams down there that have some Upside and are motivated to win every game they can. And so if you're gaming it out, the Clippers, at least in theory, should be able to get into the play in and maybe potentially mitigate some of the embarrassment of that pick. But if James Harden gets hurt at all or if Kawhi is out of the lineup more, it might not matter. And you know, I tweeted it the other day in the middle of one of these games, was waiting for the Internet to break in. May we get to the draft lottery and the Thunder wind up with Darren Peterson or A.J. deBancer or Cameron Boozer or one of these guys with this Clipper pick and the world just melts down.

[B]

By the way, when Chris Paul does retire, we'll close the book on the 2005 draft class, which you know, was always stories from draft classes. But that was, you know, the who's better, Darren Williams or Chris Paul draft and Fran Vasquez got picked as a lottery pick by the Magic and the never ever came. And there was that blog for years, the rights to Ricky Sanchez. Ricky Sanchez was drafted, I think. But anyway, beyond all that, beyond all those digressions I'm getting infamous for, he was the last guy standing in the 2005 draft class by four years. Nobody else in the 2005 class, the last one standing before him was Lou Williams. So I mean that's saying something because you know, you would not have expected the six foot guy necessarily to last that long.

[C]

And so yeah, it's a credit to his competitiveness and he had an. He's had an unbelievable career and I'm glad we'll get to see him go around the circuit one more time and get fed it. But it's probably not going to be the most enjoyable season in Clipperland.

[B]

Yeah, Jackson says that Kojis is rumored to have invented the alley oop.

[A]

Hold on.

[C]

Don Kojas. Who would have known?

[B]

Was he allying or I assume he was hooping. I shouldn't assume.

[C]

I did not. I'd never known he existed before. I like to try to fun little story.

[B]

I like to try to teach some history.

[C]

You're man of the people.

[A]

Oh, hold on.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Hey, I'm a little. This is the Google machine. So I have not checked but he is sometimes credited with developing the alley oop. First with the Phillips 66ers and later the NBA Chicago Bulls. He perfected a play called the Kangaroo Craw where code just nicknamed the Kangaroo Kid would catch a pass in the air and dunk it. The Kangaroo kid Don Kojis.

[B]

All right with that. Thank you to Jackson for putting up with us. Sorry about that trip to South Bend this weekend, Jackson.

[A]

Oh, hey, hey, hey.

[B]

Hope you had a good time.

[A]

Oh, speaking of college football, mean green 10 and one might be seen the old Mean Green, the College Football Playoff boys.

[B]

Oh, that would be interesting. We might have to get together to watch that one. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bontemps. Thank you for watching and listening to the who collective Reminder Friendsgiving. Coming up on Wednesday's podcast. It'll be a long episode. God knows what we're going to have in it. God knows the editing Jackson's going to have to do. But that will be no podcast on Friday. So friendsgiving for your traveling pleasure or displeasure. Pleasure.

[C]

One thing, one thing to cut in really quick at the end because it was a couple days ago, but shout out to a friend of all of ours, Chris DeMarco, for getting the the head coaching job at the New York Liberty over the weekend. Sean's reported that I think on Friday, knowing Chris, a long time national team coach. Yes, Coach man.

[A]

For years. By the way, we started off with Clay win with, with Clay's guy.

[C]

Yep. You know, he's been with the warriors since 2012. Pre Steve Kerr was on Mark Jackson's staff and was with Clay and Draymond, Steph and all those guys for the whole run. And it's, it's cool. He's getting a chance to go win a title with a Liberty team that's going to be stacked.

[B]

That's a heck of a job to get coming out of. That's a pretty good job to get.

[C]

It's a great job. So it's excited for Chris. It's going to be awesome.

[B]

All right, talk to you later this week.

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

White can branch out.

[A]

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[B]

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