Can Cavs Turn It Around? NBA Officiating Drama Explained + OKC Stumbles

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode: Can Cavs Turn It Around? NBA Officiating Drama Explained + OKC Stumbles

Date: December 22, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst, with Tim Bontemps (San Jose, CA) & Ben McMahon (Dallas, TX)

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the struggles of the Cleveland Cavaliers and the broader context of NBA teams coping with injuries, high expectations, and salary cap pressures. The crew also breaks down recent drama with NBA officiating—from referee Eric Lewis's unusual return to mounting coach frustrations and headline-grabbing ejections. The episode wraps up with a look at the Oklahoma City Thunder’s surprising stumbles and the intensity surrounding their record-breaking chase.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cleveland Cavaliers: Unraveling a Costly Struggle

Losing Streaks and Mounting Pressure ([01:07] - [19:11])

• Record & Performance Woes:
  • Cavs have lost 8 of their last 11, including "bad teams and home games that you should be winning that you're not," said McMahon ([01:55])
  • Windhorst: "Growing angst in Cleveland...this team...is extraordinarily expensive. Gigantic tax bill." ([02:00])
• Roster Health:
  • "You can't have a conversation about the Cavs without recognizing they've missed two starters for every game this season," Windhorst insists ([06:24])
  • McMahon counters: "The Cavs have a whole bunch of guys on their team with very extensive injury histories...not just bad luck." ([06:40])
• Darius Garland’s Struggles:
  • Tim Bontemps: "In this 11-game stretch, he's shooting 39% from the floor, 30% from three...how many times Darius Garland shot 50% from the field this season? Zero." ([07:33])
• The Trade Question:
  • Windhorst dismisses short-term fixes: "I think they just have to kind of weather the storm. It's an unsatisfactory option to a lot of fans." ([09:54])
  • Bontemps: “Trade Garland or Allen? You're selling low. Not going to get the kind of value in return.” ([10:47])
• Second Apron Woes & High Payroll:
  • McMahon: "Extraordinarily expensive this year, $40 million over the luxury tax. Next year, approaching a $400 million team." ([17:09])
  • "When you have this kind of payroll and those kind of expectations...that leads to consequences of various forms." ([18:28])

Lack of Defensive Identity & Transition Struggles

• Transition Defense:
  • Windhorst: "Cavs do very poorly in transition...the league is playing fast...bad time to have a poor transition team." ([14:01])
• Hunter Critique:
  • "DeAndre Hunter’s supposed to be a good defender but off the ball, just asleep…if you have off-ball movement, you can generate an easy shot way too simply." ([15:14])
• Upcoming Schedule Importance:
  • "They have four days to get this figured out...or they're going to get embarrassed on national television on Thursday [against the Knicks]." ([16:44])

Ownership, Front Office Patience, and Coach Kenny Atkinson

• Fan & Media Pressure:
  • Windhorst: "The seat's starting to get a little warm [for Atkinson]...he's admitted he's made mistakes, copped to the fact adjustments aren't working." ([19:49])
  • "Their intent is: Strus is getting closer...Mobley still a couple more weeks...they're hoping they're going to look different." ([21:10])
• Trade/Change Outlook:
  • "They've made their bed with this team...if we get to the spring and they lose in the first round...I'd be stunned if this team looks the same in all facets next year," says McMahon. ([24:33])
• Notable Quotes:
  • Windhorst [02:33]: "Forget about the standings. The Standings are not relevant because the way the team is playing right now, it doesn't matter where you finish."
  • McMahon [17:09]: "...extraordinarily expensive...supposed to be a championship contending team...they've been awful."
  • Windhorst [25:27]: "For better or worse, patience is the only thing you can really have."

---

2. NBA Officiating: Referee Drama, Instability, and Return of Eric Lewis

Eric Lewis’s Return ([25:29] - [32:00])

• The Scandal and Comeback:
  • Eric Lewis, a top veteran ref, had retired after a burner Twitter account scandal; now reinstated on a pathway starting in the G League.
    • Windhorst: "I think Eric Lewis was one of the best referees the league had." ([27:01])
    • McMahon: "He's universally regarded as a really good ref...done several finals games...91 playoff games." ([27:26])
• League-Wide Officiating Talent Drain:
  • Many veteran refs gone due to injury, retirement, COVID, or other issues, impacting officiating quality.
    • Bontemps: “There’s been a talent drain...not a coincidence that Eric Lewis is being brought back.” ([30:57])
• Optics & Social Media:
  • Tim Bontemps: "It was terrible optics." ([29:09])
• Notable Quotes:
  • Windhorst [27:01]: "For a ref, [the training is]...Don’t."
  • McMahon [29:02]: "You’re not supposed to be on social media, and he was...you’re not supposed to talk to the crowd, much less."

League Tension with Coaches & Ref Critics ([32:00] - [53:17])

• Coaches Firing Back:
  • "A lot of complaining. More than usual." (Bontemps, [33:03])
• Example: JB Bickerstaff & Pool Reports:
  • Recounting a "soft" ejection of Asar Thompson after contact with a ref; ambiguity led to no suspension. ([33:38]–[34:52])
  • "If you bump a ref, it's almost an automatic game. The fact he didn't get a game, there was some ambiguity." (McMahon, [34:29])
• JB Bickerstaff’s Reputation:
  • "JB is number one in the league at riding the ref," McMahon says. ([35:49])
  • "Continuous complaining," cited as cause for a technical at halftime ([36:11])
• Recent Referee Critiques, Technicals, and Fines:
  • Multiple coach & player fines noted—the environment is tense.
  • High praise for new league executive James Jones: “Good working relationship between referees and league office.” ([39:12])
  • "Referee job is hard, but...good relations...I'm just reporting it." (Windhorst, [39:19])
• Chris Finch’s Ejection:
  • Finch ejected 5 minutes into Wolves-Thunder game, seemingly premeditated to fire up his team:
    • "It felt like it might have been a premeditated...get ejected five minutes into the game," McMahon. ([47:35])
    • After his ejection, Minnesota rallied for a clutch win.
  • Ant Edwards' heroics: "Game winner, then block on Shai, then steals it on the final play for the trifecta." ([50:36]–[51:11])
  • Finch fined $35,000.
  • "That's the kind of win that can be a galvanizing type of win for them." (Bontemps, [52:10])

Notable Quotes

• Windhorst (on officiating): "If you have a good referee, you don't let him go unless you have to." ([27:51])
• McMahon: "A lot of veteran referees have retired...they have not been replaced." ([31:04])

---

3. Oklahoma City Thunder: Record Pace, Recent Stumbles, and Perception Shift

([53:17] - [56:07])

• Expectations & Recent Slip:
  • Thunder had been on record 74-win pace, now "1 and 2 since then"—but still on pace for 73.2 wins. ([54:26]–[56:07])
  • Banner stat: "Thunder are 25 and 1 when they don’t have their preferred starting lineup, 0 and 2 when they do." ([54:26])
• Close Games & Blown Leads:
  • “In each of their losses, they've blown double-figure leads. ...Hey, the Thunder are going to be up by double figures. It's just a matter of can you come back or not?" ([55:38])
• Other Comments:
  • “They’re a powerhouse.” (Windhorst, [55:56])
  • The league is now circling their games, with teams and coaches motivated to make statements when facing OKC.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Windhorst on Cavs’ stuggles:
  • "Forget about the standings. The standings are not relevant because the way the team is playing right now, it doesn't matter where you finish." ([02:33])
• Bontemps on Darius Garland:
  • "In this 11-game stretch, he's shooting 39% from the floor, 30% from three...zero times shooting 50% from the field." ([07:33])
• McMahon on officiating:
  • "There's been a talent drain (among refs)...not a coincidence that Eric Lewis is being brought back." ([30:57])
• McMahon on trade options:
  • "Even if you say, hey, Cavs should go make moves...you're selling guys that are playing very poorly...the only guy who's played to his level this season is Donovan Mitchell." ([22:57])
• Bontemps on Finch’s ejection/strategy:
  • "It felt like it might have been a premeditated...I'm going to find a way to get ejected five minutes into the game." ([47:35])
• Windhorst on league officiating mood:
  • "A lot of complaining. More than even usual, I would say." ([33:03])

---

Highlighted Timestamps for Key Segments

• Cavs’ recent struggles & injury talk: [01:07] – [07:16]
• Darius Garland’s and roster issues: [07:16] – [11:15]
• Trade/patience debate: [09:54] – [14:01]
• Transition defense, Hunter critique: [14:01] – [17:09]
• Atkinson’s job security/coaching outlook: [19:11] – [22:10]
• Eric Lewis referee reinstatement: [25:29] – [32:00]
• League-wide officiating drama: [32:00] – [39:38]
• Chris Finch ejection/Wolves summary: [47:16] – [53:17]
• OKC Thunder’s record pace & stumbles: [53:17] – [56:07]

---

Tone & Language

Throughout, the discussion is analytical but candid, blending humor (“all roads lead to 39 wins” for the Bulls, [03:20]), straight talk on team mismanagement, and inside-league perspective. Speakers freely “call out” underperformers and spotlight inside-the-numbers context while keeping the conversation loose, frank, and plugged into the NBA’s ongoing storylines.

---

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode offers a comprehensive breakdown of why the Cavaliers are floundering—balancing injuries, sluggish play, and fiscal constraints with little hope of an immediate fix. The crew explains how league-wide ref turnover affects consistency, how Eric Lewis’s return fits into this, and why coach blow-ups (like Chris Finch’s) aren’t just sound and fury, but can be clever psychological plays. The Thunder’s continued excellence, even amid some stumbles, stakes their claim as a team that now attracts everyone’s best effort—and scrutiny.

---

If you want a specific breakdown from a part of the episode, request a timestamp and it can be expanded further.

Transcript

[Brian Windhorst]

Experience a membership that backs what you're building with American Express Business platinum. Unlock over $3,500 in business and travel value annually with statement credits on select purchases from brands like Dell, Hilton and Adobe and other benefits. American Express Business Platinum there's nothing like it. Based on total potential value of statement credits on select purchases and other benefits, enrollments required monthly and other limits and terms apply. Learn [e-mail]. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday afternoon. Joining me from San Jose, California, where it's Sunday morning is Tim Bontemps.

[Ben McMahon]

Hello everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

Joining me from Dallas, Texas is Ben McMahon.

[Tim Bontemps]

Howdy partners. It's right as the beginning of the NFL Sunday kicks off, but a weak batch of early games.

[Brian Windhorst]

So you're not compelled by the Bills Browns.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's a good time to talk about the NBA.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. So speaking of Cleveland getting a little dark in Cavs corner, getting a little dark in Cavs corner, they've lost four out of five. I mean, in all honesty, like it says four out of five on the standings, the one game they won in there was against Washington in Washington where they gave up 126 points and barely.

[Ben McMahon]

Won with donated to 24 points in the fourth quarter from Donovan Mitchell is 48 to win the game.

[Brian Windhorst]

So technically I'll, I guess it's four out of five. It's a bunch of bad performances in a row. I think it's 8 out of 11.

[Ben McMahon]

They'Ve lost and all the bad teams too. Like back to back pretty rough losses even though the second one was missing a couple of guys to the Bulls who've been in an awful stretch losing at home to Charlotte when they didn't score in overtime on Monday.

[Brian Windhorst]

Lamelo didn't play in that game.

[Ben McMahon]

Just a lot of, a lot of bad teams and home games that you should be winning that you're not.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And so it's there's growing angst in Cleveland because obviously this is a team that number one more than anything else is extraordinarily expensive. It's they're paying some gigantic tax bill.

[Ben McMahon]

Dan Gilbert, 1/2 April team in the league and they currently find themselves as of this recording, tied for eighth in the Eastern Conference standings. And if the Hawks beat the Bulls this afternoon at home, they'll be ninth in the Eastern Conference standings, which is certainly not where this team was supposed to be.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, what I've been telling Cavs fans of my various appearances there is forget about the standings. The Standings are not relevant because the way the team is playing right now, it doesn't matter where you finish. Right. Uh, so they had this stretch of six very winnable games, which include Monday against Charlotte. I think that's in Charlotte. And then they play New Orleans at home on Tuesday. And then they have a brutal road trip. And this is the thing, like the.

[Ben McMahon]

Idea was, by the way, just. Just because we've made fun of the Pelicans a little bit on this podcast. They have won four games in a row.

[Tim Bontemps]

The suddenly pesky Pelicans.

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, seriously, like, they're playing better than all of these teams the Cavs have played lately. So you look at that and think, that's a win. I mean, it should be a win.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's no win. I'm Gary. I'm giving the Cavs right now, to be honest with you. Right. And not only that, but they've got an illness going through the team, which I'm giving no excuse to. The two losses to the Bulls, although I keep telling everybody, with the Bulls, all roads lead to 39 wins. I don't know why everyone is freaking out. When they get off to a 6 and 1 starter. They lose nine in a row, they're going to win 39. Stop worrying about it. We'll see you in April.

[Tim Bontemps]

Wendy's comfortable making two predictions. One, if it's a Zuba, it's all NBA. Okay. He might have backed up off that. Two, the Bulls to 39. And he's going to drive that one, right?

[Ben McMahon]

Listen, history is on his side on that one. We are only arguing with them because.

[Brian Windhorst]

They look rough, but I hope Zubots is okay. He sprained his ankle on Saturday against the Lakers with the Clippers. Got their first win Saturday night since October.

[Ben McMahon]

First home win.

[Brian Windhorst]

First home win. Sorry, first home win.

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, it felt. It felt like it might have been their first win since October, but it was definitely.

[Brian Windhorst]

They had lost eight in a row. I believe Kawhi had a good game that night, but Zubots hurt his ankle. Hope he's okay. The Cavs feel like they haven't won many times since October. So they, like I said, they've lost eight of 11. Now. There's no conversation with the Cavs that can be had in all honesty, without talking about their injuries because they've been absolutely decimated. Their team has been a shell of itself routinely. They've had multiple games where they've been missing six or seven rotation players. Friday against the Bulls, which was a better team wide effort when they lost to The Bulls in Chicago on Wednesday. And I don't take anything away from the Bulls, who are actually bit better. They've picked it up a little bit. Kobe White's return to health has made a big difference for them. Nicola Vucevich has had some good games. Josh Giddy's had some good games. They have been playing better over the last two weeks. I don't want to completely dismiss that. The game on Wednesday. However, the Cavs defensive posture was borderline embarrassing. On Friday when the Cavs lost, they started a second round. Rookie Tyrese Proctor made his first start. Jaylon Tyson, who at the beginning, he's had a decent season, but he was a borderline rotation player at the beginning of the season. They played two two way guys in the rotation, including one guy, Luke Travers. When the team got sick and a couple of guys got deactivated, including Donovan Mitchell, they had to fly Luke Travers up from Orlando. He was at the G League showcase and he had to take a flight and he got to Cleveland like two hours before the game and he was in the rotation.

[Tim Bontemps]

So.

[Brian Windhorst]

Look, I don't, I mean, the NBA, this is the nature of it. You have to have a deep team, you know, whatever. But the reason the Cavs are not in first is in large part because of the injuries that they've had.

[Ben McMahon]

No. No.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, it is. No, I mean, I don't know about first. First is ridiculous thing to say.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

But you can't, you can't have a conversation about the Cavs without. Without a nod to their injuries, which now includes Evan Mobley, who's been out for the last week with. And will be out for the rest of the month with the calf injury.

[Ben McMahon]

But as we've talked about before, the Cavs have a whole bunch of guys on their team with very extensive injury histories. So it should not like acting like this is some. And I'm not. You're not doing this. But acting like this is some sort of heavy dose of bad luck that they have all these guys who never get hurt who now all of a sudden are hurt.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like it is it. It is a. You know, look, I don't want to make this about this. I'm just saying you can't have a conversations about the Cavs without recognizing they've missed two starters for every game this season and they've started like about the most lineups in the league. Then you can take a shot at them. But you have to at least acknowledge that first.

[Ben McMahon]

Sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. And a big part of the injury issues is Darius Garland is a shell of himself. Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Coming off, he's getting better. I would say it's about the only light in the tunnel right now.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is he getting better in this?

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he's still having a terrible year, but he's his I don't want to stop you McMahon, but Wendy, in this.

[Tim Bontemps]

11 game stretch, he's shooting 39% from the floor, 30% from three point range, and he's a.

[Ben McMahon]

You know how many times Darius Garland has shot?

[Tim Bontemps]

55.

[Ben McMahon]

You know how many times Darius Garland shot 50% from the field this season? Zero.

[Tim Bontemps]

Wow. And, and, and like, look, he's always going to have challenges defensively, but it's a huge issue now. Darius Garland had a great year last year. That was a massive factor in the Cavs being a 60 plus win team. If he's a shelf himself, then it also just piles all the responsibility on Donovan Mitchell. And Donovan's having a phenomenal season and it's barely enough to keep the Cavs heads above water.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right?

[Tim Bontemps]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Ben McMahon]

This.

[Brian Windhorst]

Episode is brought to you by McAfee.

[Tim Bontemps]

Finish your fantasy lineup? No, but I'm joining this paid group chat with insider info. Dude, seriously. Forward it to me. Security alert from McAfee. That group's as legit as that knockoff jersey you're wearing.

[Ben McMahon]

McAfee's Scam Detector is available in all.

[Brian Windhorst]

McAfee plans for as little as $39.99.

[Ben McMahon]

For your first year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Learn more at mcafee.com onlineprotection.

[Brian Windhorst]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Ben McMahon]

There's a reason Chevy trucks are known for their dependability because they show up.

[Tim Bontemps]

No matter the weather, push forward no.

[Ben McMahon]

Matter the terrain and deliver. That's why Chevrolets earn more depend awards for trucks than any other brand in 2025 according to J.D. power, because in every Chevy truck, like every Chevy driver, dependability comes standard. Visit Chevy.com to learn more. Chevrolet received the highest total number of awards among all the trucks in the JD powered 2025 U.S. vehicle Dependability Study Awards based on 2022 models. Newer models may be shown. Visit jdpower.com awards for more details.

[Tim Bontemps]

Chevrolet together. Let's drive.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think the question is, what do they do about it? I think that's the real question. And in all honesty, obviously I talk a lot about the Cavs. I have media responsibilities in Cleveland, obviously. My assessment, from talking to folks and just watching it and things, I honestly think they don't have much of a choice. I think they just have to kind of weather the storm and I think that's their best option. It is an unsatisfactory option to a lot of fans who are tweeting at me and texting me. Trade, you know, stuff from the trade machine. I don't think that's a feasible pathway for them. They are a second apron team. I think their pathway is to get healthier and to have their players round into form. But I understand that that is getting a harder sell because they've now played 30 games.

[Tim Bontemps]

The other thing is, okay, trade somebody. Trade Darius Garland for pennies on the dollar because you're absolutely selling low. Trade Jared Allen while you're selling low, like the trade a guy thing. The problem is you're not going to get the kind of value in return that you need for that to make sense at this point. Because the guys, just what we're talking about, they're injured, they're not performing well. This is not the time that you're going to get good value for them if you're trying to reshape your core well.

[Ben McMahon]

And look, Dean Wade has played almost every game this season. One of the guys who typically has hurt a lot. He has been healthy. He's shooting 37% from the field and 29% from three. Lonzo Ball shooting 30% from the field and 25% from three. Darius Garland shooting 38% from the field, 32% from three. You know, DeAndre Hunter shooting 42% from the field.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hunter is having a terrible season.

[Ben McMahon]

He had a great season. He had a great season last year and the Cavs bought high on him, getting him from Atlanta. And he has not been very good. And he's another guy who typically has knee issues and misses a lot of time. And he has been pretty healthy for them this year. He's only missed a couple of games. So, yes, the injuries are a part of this. They're also just not playing well.

[Brian Windhorst]

Absolutely.

[Ben McMahon]

Almost across the board. And the only guy who has been good to McMahon's point is Donovan Mitchell, who is having a, you know, first or second team all NBA season on paper and, you know, is averaging 31 points a game and shooting Pretty high percentages and like you said, they're still hovering at.500 and losing games to awful teams on a nightly basis.

[Brian Windhorst]

So the thing about Hunter, it wasn't just that they actually didn't pay that much for him in terms of, you know, it basically was Caris Lavert and some, some picks. I think a second round pick and.

[Ben McMahon]

A three seconds, I believe.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, there was a pick swap in there.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah. And a pick swap this year.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. So the. What the thing that Hunter cost them is they trade an expiring contract in Lavert, you know, Atlanta. By doing that deal, it helped them go, go make the moves to get Chris Apps Poisingis and go get Nikhil Alexander Walker and the Cavs. The Hunter move locked them into the second apron. They ended up going flying in there anyway because Evan Mobley hit the, you know, he won defensive player of the year and made all NBA and hit the criteria to make Supermax. But at the time they were basically saying this is team they can contend. And that's, you know, the reason, you know, if, if Hunter wasn't on the team, they would have more maneuverability. So. And by the way, Hunter was very good for them last year. They had no regrets on that trade.

[Tim Bontemps]

And they were number one in the east with a, you know, 60 plus win. At a 60 plus win pace when they made the trade. I mean, it was absolutely an appropriate time to feel like, hey, we've got the core for the future.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. So they put themselves in a tough spot. I really honestly so. But I would also say that Evan Mobley is having a good year. It's just the standard that he set last year by being, you know, a top 10 player. If you're a second team, all NBA at least, who played 65 games, you're. You're saying I'm a top 10 player. And he has not played at that level this year at either end really. Although defensively I think he's played well. And part of the reason why I think the Cavs have had a couple of really poor defensive games is because Evan hasn't been there. The other thing is the book on the Cavs, much like was on the Clippers, the Cavs do very poorly in transition and you know, I don't know on the pie chart what's going on in terms of how much to blame the injuries, how much to blame across the board, you know, fall off. But part of the thing that's bothering them is, you know, Toronto has beaten them three times. Toronto plays very fast. Chicago, when they're when they're playing well, plays very fast. You know, they're getting run off the court in some of these games and the league is playing fast right now. And like the Clippers picked a very bad time to have the oldest team in league history when the league was playing super fast. The Cavs picked a bad time to turn into a poor transition team because that is the book on them. It is to make them run and really just frankly, just to make them move. Because defensively, one of the things where you look at DeAndre Hunter's shooting percentages, you can say, yeah, he's having a bad year, but DeAndre Hunter is supposed to be a good defender and on the ball he's got very good size and you will see him with on the ball possessions where he's pretty good. But one of the things that is crushing this team and the Bulls certainly exploited this, is if you have off ball movement, you can generate an easy shot way too simply. And DeAndre Hunter, for example, has been just asleep off the ball. I mean, you know, it's the, it's the book on them. And you can tell these teams come into these games and whoever Hunter is guarding is susceptible on a back cut like it's in the team's game plan. And you know, like, and here's the thing, here's what I think. If you watch the Cavs where it's frustrating, that was true in November and they're running the same and in fact, it's going to happen more. And so what's frustrating, I think, to watch them play is okay any night. Kenny Atkinson comes in and reads off the injury report and it's like, oh my God, they're missing seven guys tonight. Okay, that's fine. So maybe you're not going to get it done, but geez, oh man, how many times are you going to get beat on the weak side? How many times is one pick and roll in one pass going to generate a guy who's open by 12ft? That's where the Cavs have had IG on their face. Now. I thought their effort level was better on Friday. On Wednesday, I thought it was awful and said so and I thought that was better. But their personnel was bad. So this is a very interesting five games now for the Cavs. So they have this back to back with Charlotte and New Orleans, and then they begin this road trip where there's supposed to be a showcase game on Thursday against the Knicks in Madison Square Guard. They better have their act together. They're going to get embarrassed on national television on Thursday. They pretty much. They have four days to get this figured out because they could get embarrassed in the Garden if they continue to play the way they've played because the Knicks are playing well and are healthy and. And then they go to Texas McMahon. It's San Antonio, Houston. Houston, San Antonio. I can't remember which.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Those are the two best Texas teams.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, I mean, that's. I mean that. I mean, it could be a showcase game on Thursday for the wrong reasons. They also could show up and play well. But no, look, I mean, the bottom line really is this team is extraordinarily expensive. They were supposed to be a championship contending team. They were the favorites to win the east before the season started like it was them and the Knicks, but they were seen by the better team by most people, I would say. And the Knicks were a close second. But second. And they've been awful. And yes, they've had some injuries, but they've mostly just been awful and they're extraordinarily expensive this year and they're currently $40 million over the luxury tax next year. And I think would be. I'd have to double check the math. I'm going to text Bobby after I say this to make sure it's right before the end of the pod. I think they'd be approaching a $400 million team next year. So they're not. You're not going to be a $400 million team. At least I wouldn't expect. Despite Dan Gilbert always showing a willingness to spend money to his credit. If you're a first round and out team or God forbid, you don't make the playoffs and lose in the play in. And I'm not saying that the Cavs are going to be in the play in the rest of the season. There's obviously a lot of time left if you want to be rosy about their situation. You can say that in the Eastern Conference there's nobody really running away. There are three losses out of the three seed. They can sort the stuff out eventually and get themselves going and they do have talent and hopefully for their sake, Darius Garland can start to play better and it can get Jared Allen healthy and get Evan Mobley back and they can go on a run. But we're now more than a third of the way through the season and there's been precious little evidence that this team is anywhere near the level they were last year and that they should be taken seriously as a threat to win the conference. And when you have this kind of payroll and those kind of expectations and potentially this kind of outcome, that leads to consequences of various forms. So let me see what happens.

[Tim Bontemps]

Let me ask this. Last year, they have a phenomenal regular season. Forget the playoff disappointment, but Kenny Atkinson got a ton of credit. He got coach of the year. You know, like when, when you talk to the Cavs players, they, they were so excited to have Kenny Atkinson. Everything he did, you know, during the regular season turned to gold. There's a guy who replaced JB Bickerstaff who, frankly, player or players, essentially got fired, and they loved him last year. Where's the temperature on Kenny Atkinson right now that things aren't all clicking and everything's not just honky dory?

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, it is what it would be for any coach on a team that's this expensive and underperforming. You know, it's, you know, the, the, the seat's starting to get a little warm. But as I would, as I said a few minutes ago, assessing everything, right? And by the way, Kenny is even like, he's admitted he's made mistakes. You know, he's, you know, the other night, he against the Bulls, he. In a close game, he went with veterans down the stretch when some of the younger players were playing better. And he got questioned about it after the game. And, you know, again, it's like these Cavs young guys, you know, they're two way guys. It's not like it was an outrageous decision. And then he admitted after the game, he's like, yeah, he's like, that's a fair assessment. I probably could have gone it a different way. I trusted the older guys. You know, he's copped to it. He's copped to the fact that he's tried to get them to make adjustments and they're not adjusting. Like, he's being honest. But again, my assessment and my assessment in speaking to folks around the team is that they believe the best approach right now is to try to work through this, get healthy and find ways to improve and get through it. I don't think radical change or roster change is coming now. We are in mid December. You know, if you get to mid to late January and you're still in ninth place or wherever they're gonna be when this podcast comes out, you know, that may be a different conversation, but right now, I think their intent is Strus is getting closer. Sam, Merrill's getting closer. Both of them could be back. You know, I think they're hoping for Merrill in January, I mean, Strusten sometime in January. It's a, it's a Jones fracture. It's not an easy situation. It's not just, oh, yeah, he'll be back on whatever day. Sam Merrill has got this hand injury and, you know, you, you would, you know, you'd say, well, we're talking about Sam Merrill here, he's their seventh man. But yeah, well, they're, they're like 30th and three point shooting for the last like 15 games. So, yeah, having a guy who shoots 40% is a factor. So those guys are getting closer. You know, Mobley is still going to be a couple more weeks, but, you know, it's not a season ending thing. They'll hope to get him through that and then they're hoping they're going to look different. But, you know, it's, let's put it this way, McMahon. I think it's a fair question to ask and it's a fair thing to monitor, but I also don't think they're anywhere near that. That's my assessment.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I asked because, you know, just like talking to scouts at games and whatnot, that thing is coming up and it's going to come up when there's a team that falls this short of expectations. But I will point out that they ran off a really good coach in J.B. bickerstaff, who was a big part of the Pistons making a historic leap last year. Now the Pistons have made another leap there in first place in the Eastern Conference. And, you know, you know, at a certain point, you can't keep blaming the coach when, you know, you got rid of a really good coach. I think Atkinson proved last year, I mean, he was coach of the year. That speaks for itself. And so, you know, I ask because it's a question that's, you know, being bounced around the league right now, not because I think that Kenny Atkinson should take the lion's share of the blame.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, and as you pointed out before, McMahon, you know, they are, they have all these players that are way underperforming. So even if you say, hey, Cavs should go make moves while you're selling guys that are playing very poorly pretty much universally across the board, like, again, the only guy who's played to his level this season is Donovan Mitchell. Every other guy has played below, whether it's Evan Mobley or everybody else, and there's been degrees of how much below. And there's the fact, as you pointed out earlier, Brian, they're not only a second apron team, not only the most expensive team in the league this year. They're $22 million over the second apron. So for them to say put, you know, put two players together and go get some star, like remake their roster, they would have to shed $25 million to do that. It's just not a realistic path for them to take in the middle of the season. They can't do that. So, yeah, for better or worse, they have made their bed with this team. They came into the season betting this team would be a championship level team, which is why they're in the second apron. You only go into the second apron if you believe you're a championship caliber team. And with the east being wide open as it is still, they don't really have a choice but to cross their fingers and hope they get healthy and hope their guys start playing better and hope things start to go better. Because there's not a obvious lever to move to say, oh yeah, go just, you know, move these three guys and bring in this other guy and do like, they can't do any of that stuff. They got, this is their team. They got to just hope it works out. And like I said, if we get to the spring and they lose in the first round or they're in the play in and they wheeze into the playoffs and lose to Detroit or the Knicks or somebody in the first round or whatever scenario like that is, I would be stunned if this team looks the same in all facets next year because that's when the consequences come in and we'll, we'll see where it lands.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, listen, man, if you're in the second apron and you're not on the doorstep or holding the trophy, you're going to have to have.

[Ben McMahon]

It's like Phenix last year. I mean, this isn't as bad as Phenix, obviously. That was an unmitigated disaster. But they were extraordinarily expensive. They never lived up to it and they made changes like that's what's going to happen because you're not going to be this expensive. And they say, oh yeah, it's cool, no problem, we'll come back and spend $400 million this year. Like, if Dan Gilbert does that, that, that would be a borderline unprecedented thing.

[Brian Windhorst]

So let's just see if we're still having these conversations in four or five weeks, because if we are, then you're going to be, we're going to be having different talks about the Cavs. But I would, I don't, I don't.

[Ben McMahon]

Better or worse, patience is the only thing you can really have.

[Brian Windhorst]

And that's what I think is going to happen whether. Whether that's whether that lands well or not. Okay. On Friday, the NBA made a very interesting announcement that was unexpected but still very intriguing. And that was that they have twist limitedly reinstated veteran NBA referee Eric Lewis. Now, if you don't remember, Eric Lewis. Eric Lewis is a 20 year NBA official who two years ago in the summer of 23, he retired when it came to light that he had a burner Twitter account in which he talked about NBA officiating and even responded to fans who may have criticized him brother officials. And in some cases he had a.

[Tim Bontemps]

Very thin skin burner account and they were investigating and he retired. And now they've created a pathway for his return starting with G League, which.

[Brian Windhorst]

He did this weekend at the G League showcase in Orlando.

[Ben McMahon]

Which is why it got announced on Friday.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right?

[Tim Bontemps]

Also the Friday news dump.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, yes, but I just mean it wasn't like it was a Friday news dump, but it also. He also was in Orlando at the showcase doing G League games. It's not like they announced it and he's doing it later.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's all.

[Ben McMahon]

It was obviously a Friday news dump.

[Brian Windhorst]

And so. Hold on, let me get the press release. I want to say exactly what the lead.

[Ben McMahon]

I have it here if you want me to read it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he said, they said he cleared benchmarks. I don't remember what the benchmarks were. Stress management, counseling and training on responsible use of social media, which for a ref is.

[Ben McMahon]

Don't.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, Right. I think. Yeah. So he did referee in college the last couple of years. I will say this, I will say two things. First off, number one, and I don't see the internal reports that the NBA has on referees, but I think Eric Lewis was one of the best referees the league had. I said that before this happened. Eric Lewis, I said that.

[Ben McMahon]

By the way, he's universally regarded as a really good ref, which is why he's done several finals games and he's done 91 playoff games. Like you don't. You don't do that many playoff games. There's a lot of veteran refs who have not done nearly that many playoff games.

[Brian Windhorst]

So I reached out to a couple of officials to get their reaction and what I got was extreme support for Eric Lewis. One official said to me, you know, the ability to potentially just get a finals referee back.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Still in his prime, like it's terrific. And another one said that, you know, there was a lot of pride that Eric, you know, he could have, you know, he had a, he still had a career, he was still doing. And in NCAA games it was a lesser career, but he, you know, he didn't have to, you know, but he's bringing, he's, he's doing what he had to do to come back. And quite frankly, like, I think again, I, the league could produce data that I don't have access to. But anecdotally, as I watch games, I think the league could use veterans. I think in general the referee corps is less veteran than it was seven, eight years ago. And while that has advantages, I think sometimes it has disadvantages. And you know, from what I understand, this pathway for Eric Lewis, which he's got to check the boxes and he's checked a bunch of them already, includes potentially becoming a crew chief again, which frankly I just think where the NBA officiating is like if you have a good referee. Because I think Von Thames, I think the, I don't think the league felt that his social media usage affected the way he refereed games. I think he just affected how he reacted to criticism.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, yeah, I mean, you're just not supposed to be on social media. And he was like, man, well, you're.

[Brian Windhorst]

Not supposed to talk to the crowd, much less.

[Ben McMahon]

Right. Exactly.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was terrible optics.

[Ben McMahon]

Correct. And if you look more good refs. Correct. And if you, if you, if you look over the past 10 years. Right. Go back to 2016. You know, we've talked about it before that game seven with Duke Callahan and Dan Crawford and Monty McCutcheon doing Warriors, Cavs, those guys. Monty's obviously running the. Well, just be quiet, big man. Monty McCutcheon is out running the refs. The other two guys are retired.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. Joey Crawford has retired.

[Ben McMahon]

Joey Crawford has retired. Kane Fitzgerald had replace center to his Achilles or his knee. He retired. Jason Phillips retired. Eric Lewis is now not involved. You had several veteran refs, including Ken Maurer get booted as part of COVID when they wouldn't take, they didn't comply with the vaccine. Stuff like there's. For a variety of reasons. Not all, not like one specific thing over the last eight to ten years. A whole lot of high level veteran refs that did high profile games have all retired in mass. And you've seen a lot of new refs come in as a result of that. And I do think there's been a talent drain because of that. And that's allowed some other younger refs to get more opportunities and more experience, which is a good thing for the league in the long term, but it's also created a talent drain and I don't think it's a coincidence that Eric Lewis has had this opportunity presented to him and is coming back in light of that. Like, if the NBA was in a great position with all of its refs, I think maybe this would have still happened anyway because he is a good ref and you can't really have enough good refs. But I don't think it's, it's not coincidental to me that both things are happening at once and this does potentially give them a way to try to strengthen a group that could use some strengthening.

[Tim Bontemps]

I will never dress up as a ref as a for Halloween as a kid. You, you are a huge fan of officials and and of referees.

[Ben McMahon]

I just, I just think if you look at it objectively, a lot of veteran referees have retired in the past 10 years for various reasons. Some injuries, some non injury, some off the court stuff and they have not been replaced.

[Tim Bontemps]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this Shopping is hard, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

But I found a better way. Stitch Fix Online Personal styling makes it easy. I just give my stylist my size, style and budget preferences. I order boxes when I want and how I want. No subscription required and he sends just for me pieces plus outfit recommendations and styling tips. I keep what works and send back the rest. It's so easy. Make style easy. Get started [e-mail] Spotify that's stitchfix.com Spotify Good morning crust. It's a great day to be a bread brother.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mornings are not my jam or jelly.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh come on, stop loafing around.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just woke up feeling hollow inside.

[Ben McMahon]

Just grab one of the new morning.

[Brian Windhorst]

Uncrustable sandwiches like Bright eyed berry or.

[Tim Bontemps]

Up and apple filled with 12 grams.

[Brian Windhorst]

Of protein and tons of deliciousness crust. What are you eating?

[Tim Bontemps]

It's just granola. Not even yogurt.

[Brian Windhorst]

No crust, no fuss.

[Ben McMahon]

Uncrust your mornings.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hey, what's up y'? All? Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. My favorite thing about the holidays? Decking out my whole house. It's not a competition, but if it was, well, I'd win the season with Wayfair Outdoor Inflatable Santa. Got it on Wayfair Trees, lights and ornaments. Wayfair hosting must haves like dining sets, beds, sheets and towels. Wayfair for everything in your style delivered with fast and free shipping. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app to win the season. But again, it's not a competition. Wayfair Every style, every home. McMahon, you were. We're in this space in this little stretch of the schedule right now where refereeing has been a little bit in the headlines because some coaches.

[Tim Bontemps]

A lot of complaining. More. More than even usual, I would say.

[Ben McMahon]

There's not a lot of holiday spirit between coaches.

[Brian Windhorst]

These two things are not related. But I. Since we're talking about our like. So, McMahon, the other night, you had that, I believe you were called in on your pool report duties.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, no, no. This was Christian Clark's pool report. Really? Yeah. Well, Cuban no longer owns a team, so we don't have nearly as many. And Luca got traded right after Christian.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

Got the Dallas.

[Brian Windhorst]

And so Christian and I have been down bad because Tottenham Hotspur is having a horrible nobody cares couple of months.

[Tim Bontemps]

Nobody cares. You're a fan of soccer. Bontage's affair, referees. I'm. I'm not a fan. Proper football, but anyways. No. So it was Christian Clark, but the. The reason it was necessary is, like, we thought there's a chance because Asar Thompson got tossed.

[Brian Windhorst]

It was a. It was a. I don't know. I thought it was kind of a soft ejection.

[Tim Bontemps]

So did jb. Honestly, though, like, he bumped the ref. Now, Bickerstaff contention is that John Goble stepped towards him to help create minimal contact. And like, when LeBron is, like, full on grabbing the ref. I think it was the night before, and they pat him on his back and, you know, he keeps on playing. It's like, okay.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, and by the way, when you bump a reference, it's an automatic game. And Asar Thompson didn't get a game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

So JB's not yet.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, because I'm. You know, the bump was. I don't know, man.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm not saying there was minimal. Point is. Yeah. I'm not saying you didn't touch him in some form or fashion. My point is, if you bump a ref like you. If you initiate contact with a ref, it's almost an automatic blanket gain. So the fact he didn't get a game, I think, would tell you there was some ambiguity in the situation.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's a good point.

[Ben McMahon]

You know, which, by the way, they.

[Brian Windhorst]

Came back in that game. He wasn't suspended for. And had a very impressive win in Denver.

[Ben McMahon]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, by the way, is a quick aside. Have you guys noticed that, like, what. The Nuggets record is awesome. I think they're 20 and 7. They're pretty much unbeatable on the road, and they've had a couple of home losses, which is the inverse 8 and 5 at home.

[Ben McMahon]

8 and 5 at home. 12 and 2 on the road.

[Brian Windhorst]

Do we have an explanation for this?

[Tim Bontemps]

We'll get to the, we'll get to the Nuggets because the Nuggets have a role in this. But let's focus on the Pistons loss in Dallas. So Cade got teed up and these were all John Goble tees. John Goble is the crew chief. Cade got teed up with 24 seconds left in the first half and then at halftime made a beeline to Goble and was getting after him. And then JB contends that he just went over there just to get his guy K'd out. Now JB rides rest pretty hard. Him and Finch.

[Ben McMahon]

I would say JB is number one in the league at riding.

[Tim Bontemps]

Finch is up there too.

[Ben McMahon]

I, I would, I feel confident saying JB is number one in the league at riding the ref. I love jb. He's a good dude. He's yelling at the referee.

[Brian Windhorst]

Former teammate at espn. It was short because he's a great coach.

[Ben McMahon]

He's a great guy. He also rides the refs non stop every game.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's correct.

[Tim Bontemps]

Anyways, question. The second question, poor report is explain why JB Bickerstaff was assessed to tee just before half or it was actually at the half. Goble said two words, continuous complaining. Jb, I think will acknowledge that he does continuously complain, but his contention is he wasn't complaining at the time. He's just going to get Cade back in the locker, make sure the, you know, his star doesn't get a second tee and get tossed. Anyways, JB came in post game and like I went to his post game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Just because I was like, because you're a veteran.

[Ben McMahon]

He's a little more efficient anyway.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, I got a feeling JB is going to say something.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm going to have to have some things to say.

[Tim Bontemps]

So he's, he certainly did. And the, but the kind of, the main focal point. He'd never mentioned John Goble by name, but he definitely, he basically said Goble early on, said night by night. This is how our interactions are. So JB's point and his, his beef was that this guy's saying night by night, he's carrying something into the game. He's not objective. He's carrying bias into the game. And like they don't like each other by the way. So the way the game ends, the Pistons make this comeback from 18 down. And then Cooper flag felt like he got fouled it goes in overtime. Cooper Flag felt like he got fouled. The last two minute report said no with the Mavs up one late and then so Kate comes down, drives Flag bumps him. The last two minute report says, yeah, there was a foul on there. And then it's just like a wrestling match on the rim. During its couple rebounds, there was one point where the last two minute report said, yeah, AD had his hand on the ball with a foot out of bounds that should have been out of bounds Pistons. And it was after the second during offensive rebound Bickerstaff is. Time out, time out, time out. He's on the other end of the floor. Let him tell it, though. He's like got his arm around John Go saying, timeout, timeout, timeout. Anyways, the timeout's not awarded. The last two minute reports said he was calling timeout when the ball was still, you know, not under control, but whatever. So he was heated about that. He felt like Goble blew him off because. Because of beef. But anyways, it was not a. No fine has been announced as of this pod. There have been several fines announced by.

[Ben McMahon]

No, he's. He's not getting. He's not getting fined for that game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, there have been several fines announced by. By rookie league official James Jones this week.

[Brian Windhorst]

But not, by the way, was. I talked to some referees about Eric Lewis coming back. I had two things I heard about. One, they don't like the earpieces. You know how there's. There's. They're wearing earpieces.

[Ben McMahon]

That's been a consistent. That's been consistent.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not going to go into more.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

The second thing is high praise for James Jones. Okay, good.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's been busy this week.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, I mean, he and he and Tim Cook, I would say.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Let me. Yeah. I don't mean to interrupt you, Buntemps.

[Ben McMahon]

You're good.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me say James Jones and his staff. Yeah, because, you know, the referee job is hard, but like, good. What I'm hearing is good, good relations, good working relationship between the referees and league offs. Not that the average fan cares about that. I'm just.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, no, he and Tim Cook have been going around and meeting with teams and hearing teams out on a variety of different things, including, you know, any issues with the referees. And, you know, James obviously has been on all sides of this, both as a player, as a guy leading a front office and now in the league office, so is aware of how this stuff goes. And yeah, like those guys have been really busy this week. We got to find this morning.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, yeah, I want to talk about.

[Ben McMahon]

Which we'll get to. We'll get to. But yeah, like, it's been a very busy week.

[Brian Windhorst]

And yeah, like, they would have fired JB by now and didn't various Dylan Brooks ejections, flagrants. Wherever Dylan has gone in the last couple of weeks, the referees have had a lot of paperwork, I would say.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, the back and forth with Phoenix and the Lakers on Sunday, where all kinds of shenanigans happened late in that game. Then you had Dylan Brooks get a flagrant one for hitting Steph on Thursday. The warriors were a little annoyed at him about that. Then Draymond gets ejected in Saturday night's game. Jimmy Butler fires the ball at Dylan Brooks, clearly coming back at him from what happened on Thursday. You know, just like, not a full.

[Tim Bontemps]

Denson Bane dodgeball thing, but a Steve Kerr.

[Brian Windhorst]

Steve Kerr said some things after the game. I. No fine announced yet. But Steve Kerr.

[Ben McMahon]

No, I. I don't think he's getting fine for that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Steve Kerr was angry that he thought Draymond got the heave ho too fast. But it was one of those things where Draymond is like. There's this. It's like procession of people holding Draymond back.

[Ben McMahon]

Um, also, Draymond Green, I. I'm sorry there. Draymond Green gets zero sympathy from me with the officials ever. Like, if you want to say he got ejected too fast, you know what? He didn't get ejected fast enough. Seven million other times. So I. It's like Dylan Brooks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's the thing.

[Ben McMahon]

There's just so many incidents that happen. You can't come to me and say, ah, I really got it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Worst thing you can do.

[Ben McMahon]

Like, you're in a million of these things. What are you doing?

[Brian Windhorst]

Almost the worst thing you can do is give Draymond a tech early.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right?

[Ben McMahon]

Then he thinks he has impunity.

[Brian Windhorst]

Then it's just for a decade plus he has like, you know, like, you want to get people going in the league. Talk about what happens after Draymond gets his first tech. Like that, you know, that will be a thing. So, you know, whatever, I guess. I don't know which official tossed him. Zach Zarba was involved in a couple of things this week, but the hair.

[Tim Bontemps]

Staying place the whole time.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, and the other thing is too. And we'll get through. There's some other things to touch on, including the Finch one. But, like, Monday, right. Emi Adoka completely undresses the officials after the Rockets Nuggets game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Ben McMahon]

Gets a $25,000 fine. Come back on Saturday, they get a bunch of free throws in this Denver game. David Adelman sees the Rockets getting all these free throws, sees Nicole Jokic get fouled in the lane, doesn't get a call, decides to go completely insane. He gets ejected. You have Chris Finch.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, by the way, real quick, after, after the game, Adelman was almost like apologetic. He's like, yeah, maybe I shouldn't have done that or what? And you know, he's kind of mild mannered as it is, but like, you.

[Ben McMahon]

Know, but there's a cause and effect.

[Brian Windhorst]

What happens in the NBA, you know, like, I don't know this for sure, but Udoka goes crazy. By the way, as a quick aside, did you see IME Udoka have the back and forth with Derrick Queen the other night in New Orleans?

[Ben McMahon]

Yes, IME has a lot of back and forth players. I was. Now, Derrick Queen, as we've talked about, is one of the more unintentionally hilarious players in the league and has like gotten himself into already a bunch of bizarre situations in a few years.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think it was of his career involving a play at the end of the game when the game was already decided, just like he had a couple weeks ago when he like went down and dunked it and I.

[Ben McMahon]

When he stole the ball and ran down and dunked it when the game was being run out.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. I'm not 100% sure of that, but I was trying to read IME's lips and I think it was something along those lines. And I don't think IME was real happy because the Rockets were losing, going to lose to the Pelicans. But IMEI had his say there, then had his say about. And by, you know, we talked about that game, there was some tough. And I think you pointed out, McMahon, that the two minute report sided with IME.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, there's three calls in overtime that were ruled incorrect or calls or non calls. 3 Incorrect.

[Brian Windhorst]

But as Bontem says, it's cause and effect.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, three incorrect.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, now we get to the thing.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think the last two minute report saved IME some money.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right.

[Ben McMahon]

Chris Finch game on Thursday.

[Brian Windhorst]

So hold on. So Adelman. Adelman sees a coach go after his star comes out that the coach might be right. So in the next. So they know this going into the game. You know, between games, coaches do a lot of assessing. So Adelman knows to be on the lookout and he's a rookie head coach. And so, you know, and the Rockets.

[Ben McMahon]

Are getting calls in the game after that in the same. Between the same teams five days later.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. So he, Adelman comes to the game, probably a little bit sensitive, a couple of Jokic gets hammered a couple of times, he flips out, gets ejected. Nuggets lose. Okay. Now Finch, all right. Finch has been very aggressive on the referees this year. A couple of times he's been on some hot mics where he's just been absolutely raw on the referees. Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

And he's been. And he's been on and about the specific matchup of the Wolves and the Thunder and how the Thunder operates for more than. Yes, more than a year. Going before last year's playoff series. Well, before all of that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. And by the way, the league is, you know, in general, the league is trying to figure out how they're going to beat the Thunder. All right. And so Finch knows that in any sort of series against Oklahoma City that officiating will be a part of the series. Will it be a 5% part of the series? Will it be a 1%? Will it be 12? I don't know. But he knows this. He's already played the Thunder in the playoffs once, which they lost in was six games or was five games. Five games.

[Ben McMahon]

And also I do think as an undercurrent of all of this, it hasn't quite been to Cavs corner levels this year, but it's been a disappointing start to the season in Minnesota. They've had several really rough losses, late game collapses. They very, they very rarely had wins against high level teams. All of that is sort of festering under the surface of Finch coming into this game on Friday.

[Brian Windhorst]

Finch has been under a little bit of heat locally in Minnesota. Minnesota. About his rotations and not playing the younger guys more. And he came out after a game within the last seven to ten days and he. I don't. Maybe it was in a practice, but I think it was after a game where he like had a very detailed like six point explanation because the th. Because the, the Wolves play guys shorter minutes and he was explaining his rotational theories and explaining why the younger like he had like a defense prepared. Like, and he doesn't do that unless he probably is feeling like he's got to defend himself if he's not thinking about it. Right, right. They have this game where they have this record where they've struggled against the teams with good records. So Ant has been out. This funny thing about Ant Edwards, like, the guy is like Iron Man. Like he turns his ankle 17 different ways and pops back up and dunks like takes some Crazy blow to the leg and then scores.35. He just missed, was it three or four games with an infection in his pinky toe. So we're all vulnerable somewhere. So Ant comes back, they're playing the Thunder. It's in Minnesota.

[Ben McMahon]

You know, TV game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. You know this. You know that Finch is on guard. And early in the game, Ant gets hit on the arm and Finch blows up.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was a strong one.

[Ben McMahon]

It felt like it might have been a premeditated. I'm going to find a way to get ejected five minutes into the game.

[Brian Windhorst]

So he gets attack. He makes his point, gets attack. But then, and while I don't know for sure, then he keeps going. I think he makes a decision or had previously made a decision if there was an opportunity to go after and make a play.

[Ben McMahon]

And let's be honest, they're playing the Thunder. The Thunder play physical defense. He knew he was going to get a chance to do that. He knew he was going to get it. You don't go that crazy and get ejected five minutes into the game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Ant did get fouled. Ant did get fouled.

[Ben McMahon]

He's a veteran coach. He's coached all over the world. He knows exactly what he's doing. It felt like, hey, this is a chance to wind my team up, wind the crowd up and maybe get my team going when we need to get jump started.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't know if this is true. I don't know if this is true. I just know that some of the beat writers who cover the Wolves, I can't remember if it was Chris Hein or Jace Frederick or Dane Moore pointed out that there were video packages showing the controversial non Chris Hein.

[Ben McMahon]

I remember seeing it right after the. Right after the play. Chris goes. They don't normally show these plays right afterwards.

[Brian Windhorst]

So I don't know for sure. I'm just saying. I'm just seeing that.

[Tim Bontemps]

But what we do know is this. There had been a lot of thought and fury and frustration from Finch and the Wolves about the way their games with the Thunder were officiated. Finch had the press conference last year where he basically said, I'm paraphrasing, but you know, they get away with mugging guys on defense and then you blow on Shay and he gets to the line. The last time they played was in Oklahoma City. And I can tell you Finch was going ballistic that whole game because I was sitting there at the scorers table. It was a national game. So I had the scores table scene.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was when he threw any. Threw down the powder, didn't he didn't he.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was going to get a hit. I was doing like that. And then I'm getting all kinds of crap from some of our buddies with the Thunder because it got to the point where Finch felt like he wasn't getting through the ref. So he just started turning around and bitching to me he didn't do it better.

[Ben McMahon]

And by the way, after all of this, what's the free throw count on Friday in a two point game?

[Brian Windhorst]

47.

[Ben McMahon]

37 to 30. Yeah. For the Thunder and 24 for Minnesota.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't think Mike Annoori was shocked that he got handed the clipboard midway through the first quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

So this morning Finch got fined 35,000, I will say that. So it's interesting Finch did not speak to the media after the game. He talked to the media on Sunday at practice. Typically when a coach gets ejected, he does speak to the media. Not maybe 100%, but most of the time. So I wondered like he was already.

[Ben McMahon]

Halfway through celebrations after the game. For the videos I saw, he was in the hallway high five at people.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he might have saved himself some well because he was probably a great mood. He might have saved himself some more money for not taking questions on on any of that. But I will say this ant was after all that ant was awesome in that game. Including the game winner, which.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, game winner, then block and Shay on the next game winning step back through case and Wallace playing incredible defense, just better. Offense comes down, Shay drives the hoop, looks like he's getting a layup. Ant appears and blocks it. And then after they hit a couple free throws, Shay's got the ball down three, trying to get to a step back, tie the game and ant picks his pocket and gets a steal and they win the game. Like a rare, incredible stuff.

[Tim Bontemps]

A rare trifecta that you will hear more about in the Cajones factor player of the month discussion coming up.

[Ben McMahon]

This will be one of the 27 nominees for cajones factor player of the month.

[Brian Windhorst]

And he said after the game he practices that shot a thousand times a week. God bless him if he does. That was a crazy move in a sort of in an awkward spot. It wasn't really at the wing. I mean it was on the wing but it was like, but it was.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was against one of the best on ball defenders in the league. But I'm sure if you're ant, you see, hey, I'm one on one. There's not a second guy coming my way. I've got to get this shot up Right. You know, he.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which I don't blame him. If you're going to trust a player, trust Casen Wallace and you're going to live with that.

[Tim Bontemps]

If you're the thumb, you're saying, hey.

[Ben McMahon]

You got to shrug.

[Tim Bontemps]

Wallace scoring anybody in the league, one on one we feel good about and made a tough shot, man.

[Brian Windhorst]

It was a great, it was a great win and you know, a huge win for them. But you know, that's the thing. Like the Thunder have reached the status where like we're now suspecting if there was like a basketball operations slash coach planning to get. Trying to get ejected plot for, you know, at some game in December. Like that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

And to Bon Tim's point, man, the Wolves needed that kind of. And the Wolves aren't like, it's not like they're just in.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think Nas Reed said it was a. Of course he said it after they won, but I think Nas Reed it before he said it before. I take it back.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thunder are 18 and 10 and six in the west. But like Wolves. I'm sorry. Yeah, the Wolf.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't know when The Thunder loser 10th game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Maybe not this year, but the wolves, my batter 18 and 10, six in the west, but just three and eight against teams that are.500 or better. There was a lot of frustration. There was a lot of failure to close games. And that's the kind of win that man, that. That can be a galvanizing type of win for them. I mean they still got issues primarily at point guard, which ants basically their point guard now. But big, big, big win for them and you know, and I think they're now undefeated since they've announced that Kevin Garnett's an ambassador.

[Ben McMahon]

It's true. 1 and oh yeah, assuming they beat the Bucks today, this afternoon we're doing this before the game two and oh, we'll see if they do.

[Tim Bontemps]

I like their odds in that one.

[Brian Windhorst]

I wouldn't assume that it's where you get into trouble.

[Ben McMahon]

That's right.

[Brian Windhorst]

So McMahon, didn't Shea say something about the Thunders winning?

[Tim Bontemps]

So Shay in Vegas was asked, yeah, basically. Hey, are you guys going to be shooting for or do you want that record? Do you want the 74 wins? He was like, absolutely. Which I was a little bit surprised because, you know, Shay's always been just like focused right on what's in front of him and that sort of a thing. But he basically said, you know, he kind of framed it. I wish I had it in front of me. He said, absolutely. But he kind of framed it as like, you know, we want to win as much as possible. You know, it's not going to be like the primary goal, but if, if that's within reach, we want it. They are 1 and 2 since then. Now here's a crazy stat. The Thunder are 25 and 1 when they don't have their preferred starting lineup and oh and two when they do.

[Brian Windhorst]

Now there goes my Cavs argument.

[Tim Bontemps]

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock into that because that preferred starting lineup did deliver a championship parade to Bricktown. But it's, I think it does kind of put in perspective just what a bizarrely elite season it's been for Oklahoma city. They're all NBA forward missed the first 19 games of the season. You know, he comes back and Hartenstein was out until, you know, he was able to come back for the cup semifinal in Vegas. You know, Hartenstein and J Dub have only played a couple of games together this season. You know, door, I mean, I, I, I don't have the updated stats, but very recently they had the second most games missed due to injury this year. And so now, but they've lost three games now and this was they lost this game by five. That's the the most lopsided loss of the season. The other two were by a bucket. In each of their losses, they've blown double figure leads 22 in Portland, 16 against the spurs in Vegas, and this one they blew a so basically, hey, the Thunder are going to be up by double figures. It's just a matter of can you come back or not?

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I mean, I guess their pace is off now, but I'm not, you know, like to me, whether they win 70 or 72 or 73, whatever, I know there's some history there. But you know, they are a powerhouse. So.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, they're now on pace for 73.2 wins. Oh, so they're still on record pace, but perhaps not record breaking pace.

[Brian Windhorst]

Ah, I see. All right, well, the standard is very high for them and seeing how the teams react, beating them sort of says it all. I've covered some teams like that and it can be a little exhausting, but the Thunder have proven to be up to it. All right, well, thank you so much for sticking with us for another episode. We're back for a big time Christmas week here. I'm not sure how our schedule will be affected. I haven't talked with Jackson about it yet, but I don't know. You'll get three podcasts this week somehow, some way. All right, thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bontemps, thank you to Jackson, thank you to Devon. Thank you for listening and watching the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week.

[Tim Bontemps]

Adios, Migos.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Uniswap wallet makes crypto easier and safer to own and use. Discover new tokens, research confidently, swap instantly, and manage it all securely in one place. The Uniswap trading protocol has powered over $3 trillion in volume and it's trusted by millions worldwide. Buy your first crypto assets in a few taps and experience the freedom of decentralized finance with Uniswap. Tap the banner to get started.