← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Curry's Telling Quotes On Warriors' Future, Detroit & Houston Ahead Of Schedule
00:54:03
Hoop Collective: Curry's Telling Quotes On Warriors' Future, Detroit & Houston Ahead Of Schedule
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- [00:00]
Zach Lowe
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Brian Windhorst
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Zach Lowe
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Brian Windhorst
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Zach Lowe
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Brian Windhorst
There are risks associated with CBOE Company products.
- [00:26]
Zach Lowe
Review the disclosures and disclaimers@cboe.com USDISCLAIMERS Foreign.
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Brian Windhorst
Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from the center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he's at the Thunder visiting the 76ers on Tuesday. Nice, Tim. Bonteps hello everybody.
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Zach Lowe
Soon to be the home of the new Sixers arena after a big switcheroo by the ownership group over the weekend. We're trying to build an arena downtown and all of a sudden they're building one with the the Flyers out here. They're former mortal enemies in that pursuit. Just like me and McMahon having to try to carry this pod today with Brian's voice going sideways, doing even more work than we normally do.
- [01:12]
Brian Windhorst
Joining us from Dallas, Texas, where he's will be attending tonight's Mavericks against Nuggets game. Band McMahon. This is Bontemp's dream. I'm under the weather. Actually, I'm not under the weather. I feel fine. I just have laryngitis for the second time this season. And so therefore I've got to sort of yield the microphone to you guys. McMahon, you got to check bond temps. I'm handing the baton over to you.
- [01:36]
Tim MacMahon
Howdy, partners.
- [01:38]
Brian Windhorst
Little voodoo doll Bob, baby. Yeah. All right, well, I'll limp through this. I appreciate everyone's patience. Okay, so there was an interview that Steph Curry gave on Monday night in Toronto that was as interesting to me of an interview as I've seen a player give mid season in a very long time. And that is because, and I, I'm, I'm a little bit careful to overreact to it because he's just lost a game. It's Monday night in Toronto in January. You know, the cold affects people different ways. But he basically said that the warriors should not make a desperation trade and that they need to hold on to their assets, which I've never even heard a player. Have you guys even heard a player?
- [02:27]
Zach Lowe
No. Let me read this.
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Brian Windhorst
The word assets. Yeah, Read the quote.
- [02:31]
Zach Lowe
I think it's worth reading because it is a fascinating thing for him to say desperate trades are desperate moves that deplete the future. There is a responsibility on keeping the franchise in a good space and good spot when it comes to where we leave this thing when we're done. Doesn't mean that you're not trying to get better. Doesn't mean that you're not active in any type of search. If you have an opportunity where a trade makes sense or in the summer where free agency makes sense, you want to continue to get better. Nobody wants to be stale or in a situation where you're passing by opportunities, but it doesn't mean you're desperate and flinging assets all over the place because you want to do something. And then when he was asked if he was comfortable at the front office's activity level before the deadline, Curry said, quote, if there was a situation that made sense for our team, I'm pretty sure we'd know about it. That's how we've always opp. That's how we've always operated. That's the expectation now until February 6th.
- [03:19]
Tim MacMahon
And listen, Draymond has made similar comments recently and going back to even the summer and the simple fact of the matter is it would be absolutely delusional for these Golden State veterans right now to be saying, hey, we got to make a move to that'll vault us into championship stat there.
- [03:39]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I've heard plenty of delusional stuff around trade deadlines in years past that.
- [03:44]
Tim MacMahon
You have elderly Mrs. Doubtfire voice. But I mean, seriously though, this is a team that is there in 12th place in the west despite the fact they got off to a 12 and 3 start. And like, what is making some trade for Jimmy Butler going to salvage this situation for Zach lavine? Like tell that's the thing. You can talk about it. They've got to get better. They've got to use these assets. But then you have to be able to answer on what that will get them where.
- [04:15]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the whole, that's the whole story here, right? I mean, we're talking about a Warriors team that as of right now is sitting one game below.500. They're in 12th place in the West. They're behind McMahon spurs, who are on pace to win his bet for him, make him very happy. But if you. It's hard, it's just very hard to sit here right now and argue that this Golden State team should try to push in their chips, particularly when, if they're going to try to push in their chips, let's say Some star player becomes available, right. The best the, you know, they've got their draft picks and they've got Jonathan Kaminga as maybe the guy that they, that they put into a deal to get a deal done. He's out for an extended period of time with an ankle sprain now anyway. So I think it makes a lot more sense for this team to just mind it's P's and Q's for the next three weeks, see where they're at and then assess it in the summertime because they're only going to have a chance to really be a true championship level team between now and whenever the end of Steph's career is, if they get a player that's better than Steph on the team. And there's obviously, even at this point in his career, only a handful of those guys and clearly none of them are available. So it just, it just is hard to justify with where they're sitting now when they've gone 7 and 17 in their last 24 games that they should try to add anything to this mix. When, you know, if it, if we're, if they're on the same pace they were the first month of the season and they're 12 and three and they're sitting up in like the Memphis Houston range up at the top three in the West. Yeah. Then there probably would be some urgency to try to take a swing to try to get to the level of Oklahoma City, to try to get back to the finals again. But now I think if you're Mike Dunleavy in the front office with the warriors, it's very simple to look at this, say there's no reason for us to chase good after bad right now.
- [06:09]
Brian Windhorst
And let's see, something for Mike Dunleavy to say. That's not something you expect a star player to say in mid January. It may be something the star player says after you don't do a deal at the deadline. And I think that's like, I don't think what's surprising is his analysis, which I've referred to as basically he's at the acceptance stage of loss. His analysis isn't surprising. That he would say it at this point, I think is a real referendum. And I assume he said this to the front office too, right. I mean, or if he, he's made it clear.
- [06:38]
Tim MacMahon
Well, my assumption is he's, he's said that they've had the conversation with the front office and you know, Steph is an extremely intelligent, media savvy guy. For him to say this now, weeks before the trade deadline, I think is an intentional way to ease the pressure on the front office and kind of turn down the temperature on the whole thing. And, you know, maybe he likes the temperature a little bit chilly.
- [07:01]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I, I think that this, this is all, to me, Steph Curry, who, by the way, is as comfortable in his skin as anybody in the league. His, his legacy is secure. He's not trying to go somewhere else. Like, for him, this is a. I think you said it perfectly, McMahon. This is the organization all being on the same page. Because for the last two months you've heard, well, what are the warriors going to do? Are they going to add, Are they going to go try to get Jimmy Butler? Are they going to go try to do this? They're going to try to do that. And remember, let's go back to media day. I think it was media day when Steph got asked about the team and said, well, you know, we've got a chance to be a relevant team. Like, he didn't say we have a chance to be a championship team. He didn't say, we have a chance to win the West. He said, we have a chance to be a relevant team. So I think he's been pretty aware of the overall situation here from the beginning. And I do think what this does is take a lot of heat off of the warriors to feel like they have to go make some move to salvage a season or to, you know, try to become an overnight contender when no moves really available. And that's the kind of situation where if you try to do something, you tend to make a big mistake and do something damaging.
- [08:11]
Tim MacMahon
And clearly, clearly it would have to be a big swing. They took a, you know, kind of a medium sized cut at Dennis Schroeder, got him on the roster. And listen, they're five and nine since then.
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Brian Windhorst
My point is Schroeder's shooting percentages are terrible since he got to Golden State.
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Tim MacMahon
And, and listen, there's a lot of factors in this. Buddy Healed was playing at an all star level during that 12 restart. He's shooting less than 33 from 3 point range since then. You know, I mean, Steph, to ask him to play at an MVP level every single night at this stage of his career is, Is asking too much. And the simple fact is they're not just a little tweak or a piece away. They are a massive, you know, foundational piece away from being in any kind of conversation as far as it continue you mentioned the Rockets range in. The Rockets range from a few years ago, near the bottom of the Western Conference.
- [09:05]
Zach Lowe
Right. I. I meant that they. If they stayed on the pace they were when they were 12 and 3, if they were sitting in second or third in the west, like Houston or Memphis, which they're not. And look like if you go back to the Tim Duncan Spurs, Right. That team was a contending team to the end of Tim Duncan's career because they found Kawhi Leonard. Yeah, right. This team has not found it's Kawhi Leonard. Whether that's through trade or the draft. There's not a guy who is supplanted Steph as the best player yet. And until they find that player, they're not going to be good enough to break through in the West. Particularly when you're looking at this juggernaut Oklahoma City team that's got one of the five best players in the league, that's got a thousand assets already, that's got all these other young players around him, is only probably going to get better for the next few years. So it really doesn't make sense to throw good money after bad when this team, as constituted right now, will be maybe not lucky to make the playoffs, but its ceiling is to get in the playoffs. It's not to make some kind of run to the west finals.
- [10:04]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I thought about two things when he said this. I thought, one, that 2022 championship, like, I mean, that. That really is a remarkable victory that they won that, especially after having to go through the total rebuild following. That's a total rebuild. But the.
- [10:19]
Zach Lowe
All the injuries they had, I mean, Clay's injuries, Steph's injuries, I mean, that. That they had a rough three years.
- [10:25]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. To rise back up and win a title. I mean, you know, in all honesty, just in any sport, to win championships eight years apart or seven years apart, like they did in 15 and 22, that's. That's really hard to stay that good. And so the fact that they have gotten to this point illustrates how valuable and how hard that 2022 championship was. The second thing was I was thinking about what LeBron said a couple weeks ago when they made the Dorian Finney Smith trade. And he was asked the question, is this a championship team? Which, you know, clearly the Lakers are not a championship team. But he. He said, no, I don't think so. He said, and it doesn't determine whether or not my career is going to last any longer, because I'm not basing that on my career. I said, it doesn't change my career in any fashion is what he said. And I give him points for honesty there and I give Steph points for honesty here. And I think it's two people who have their eyes wide open. I mean, I think they always have, but at least they're even articulating it publicly.
- [11:28]
Zach Lowe
Well, And I think McMahon, McMahon I think, really hit on it where Steph, I think, deserves a lot of credit for being aligned with what's best for the long term health of the team. It'd be very easy, like if Steph got up and said, we got to get players right, the warriors would probably go try to get players like they, they would try to do right by Steph. Like he has earned that respect from them. And I think they feel a debt to him to try to be as good as possible. And I'm not saying they're like he said. I'm not saying they're going to sit there and go, oh man, now we could sit back and not do anything. But the fact that he came out and said this, I think McMahon said it perfectly. It takes a lot of the temperature off the team and it sort of puts a realistic veneer on where they're at. And there isn't going to be a clamor to do something if Steph is saying, why would we go do something that's damaging long term? It's very hard for any fan or any pundit to argue that if the guy who's the face of the team is saying, yeah, it's not worth doing this, like, it just makes it makes the whole situation a lot easier for everybody to manage.
- [12:36]
Tim MacMahon
More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [12:39]
Brian Windhorst
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Zach Lowe
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Tim MacMahon
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Zach Lowe
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Tim MacMahon
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Zach Lowe
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Tim MacMahon
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Brian Windhorst
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Tim MacMahon
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Zach Lowe
You want me, Come and get me.
- [14:00]
Brian Windhorst
Captain America.
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Tim MacMahon
Brave new world. See you to Nightmax February 14th. Get tickets now. Rated PG 13, this film may be inappropriate for children under 13.
- [14:13]
Brian Windhorst
How about the Houston Rockets? Winners, I believe, of five out of six, four in a row, 11 to 15.
- [14:19]
Tim MacMahon
If you want to get a little.
- [14:20]
Brian Windhorst
Bigger picture, even that sounds a phase three right there. And most importantly, they took a home and home away from the Memphis Grizzlies over the last couple of days. I think they moved past them. Did they move past him to second.
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Tim MacMahon
Place, two games ahead?
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Brian Windhorst
Boy, I'll tell you what I mean, I like the Rockets, you know, turnaround situation. I did not have them as the number two seed in the west in mid January, I'll tell you that. And Jalen Green, with two excellent performances, had a dominant performance in Houston on Monday night. Al Pere and Shingoon had a big game over the weekend in Memphis. McMahon, you're our Texas man here. We've talked significantly about the Rockets ramping up and whether or not they should dip into their asset stash to do something. Forget about all that. This team they've got right now, I mean, I thought, I'm not sure they were going to, you know, two, three, three, four weeks ago, I might, I might have said, you know, I still think, I'm not sure they're going to be a top six team, but they are blowing that out of the water. They are. Their defense is great and they're getting great play from their front line. And despite dealing with some injuries and some stuff, they're just continuing to impress.
- [15:34]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, when Ime Udoka stood up on media day and said, we're going to be a playoff team this year, I was like, man, that's, that's, that's bold. I don't think he even thought there'd be a home court advantage in the first round type of team. But look, the, the organization, you know, we've discussed before, had they had a chance at Donovan Mitchell, they absolutely would have tried to make that happen. They didn't. And then they made kind of the organizational decision of, hey, we're going to be competitive this year, and let's let this young core grow and breathe and give it a full year. To evaluate. And this summer they very well could be aggressive or their preference would be they feel like they can just keep this young core together and, you know, keep adding to it with, you know, with all the picks that they've accumulated and there's an understanding they need a star. They to. To ultimately be a true legitimate championship contender, they need a big time offensive engine. Now the likelihood is that's something they'll have to look at in the trade market. Whether it's Dear and Fox this summer. You know, certainly they've got a lot of Suns draft capital and they let it be known they are Devin Booker fans. There's no indication that Devin Booker and certainly not the Suns have any interest in participating in that. But if you talk to people in Houston, they say, hey, we also think we've got some potential.
- [16:59]
Brian Windhorst
Devin Booker is staying with the Suns. I can't see, I don't see it.
- [17:03]
Tim MacMahon
Right.
- [17:03]
Brian Windhorst
Just to interject, I don't see any, any wavering on that whatsoever. That's. Sorry, just interject.
- [17:09]
Tim MacMahon
There's been not any indication, like I said, there's interest and that's been expressed and no indication that it's even a possibility. The only reason I bring it up is because if you look at their assets, right, they got a lot of sons capital, but you know, it's that type of player. They're not just going to take a swing on anyone. And their preference is, hey, Jalen Green, the talent's there, still young, he's shown flashes. He's certainly in a groove right now. He's got 25 plus in the last five games and it's all been very efficient. Can he have sustained success? Can he provide some, some real hope moving forward? Honestly, like Reed shepherd is not in the rotation, you know, just got sent down at the G League, scored 49 in a G league game. They haven't like, they're not down on Reed Shepherd. He's just not cracking their rotation right now. So there's hope that their star can come from within. And Jalen Green's putting together a little street. We've seen these little runs from him before, but I tell you the, I mentioned that last 15 games they are eighth in the league in offensive efficiency during those last 15 games. And it's really a remarkable thing because they still aren't shooting it well. Green is recently, he's shooting it better than he has throughout the course of the season for sure. During those games they ranked 24th in effective field goal percentage, 24th in true shooting percentage, and 8th in offensive efficiency. How does that math work? They don't turn it over and they pound you on the offensive glass. And then you know, this is one of the best defensive teams in the league. So it's all a very interesting combination. And again, they're a star away whether that's emerging on the roster or acquiring down the road from being a real threat.
- [19:04]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean they're a team that's built to win a ton of regular season games right now. Right. Like they're deep, they're athletic, they play extremely hard every night. They're incredibly hard to play in a one off situation because of how hard they play and how physical and how athletic they are. And they're going to grind it out. And they're winning more games than they don't because like you said, they generate enough offense to win in January. Up until January 1st, Jalen Green was shooting 40% for the season and 32% from three over the last six games. He's averaging 30 points in January on 51% shooting at 45% from three. So that is how the numbers start to turn around pretty quick. We saw him do this last March when he had a great end of the season. He then basically became the same player again the start of this season. We'll see if he can, to your point, have a consistent run like this. But look, we've talked about it a ton. You mentioned all the assets they have. You mentioned the situation they're in. They have the luxury to be patient because they got a really good young team. They can let this thing ride for the rest of the year if they lose in the first round in some competitive series. It's not like that makes their season a failure. If they win a couple rounds and make the conference finals, obviously that would be an incredible accomplishment. But they're already way ahead of where they expected to be by anybody's rational opinion. And they are as set up as we've talked about a lot. They're as set up as anybody in the league to make a swing for a star player between the market they're in between the team. They've got the coach, they've got. Just about every star player in the league has relationship with Imi Adoka one way or the other and likes them. I mean they're, they're all, yes, they have a ton of picks. They got their picks, they've got sons picks, They've, they've got a lot of stuff they can do and you know, they're in really, really good position going forward. And that does allow them to be really patient. Even though when you do watch them in some of these games, it's like, man, if they get to the playoffs, they're trying to play this slugfest style, it might be a struggle, but that's also okay like that. I think it's very healthy for them to just say hey and smart to say, hey, we got this young team, let's have it get to the playoffs, let's see what it looks like in the playoffs and then let's learn. Here are the areas we need to improve to go from being an awesome 82 game team to an awesome 16 game team. I think it makes a lot of sense.
- [21:26]
Brian Windhorst
Let me ask you about where you are with Jalen Green right now, because actions over words. I think the Rockets really liked him, but I weren't sure. I wasn't sure if they were head over heels in love with him because of the contract they gave him. They gave him 100 million. You don't give 100 million to a guy you don't really like. But it was basically a two year guarantee. The third year is his option. But if you were convinced that this guy was a core, core piece, you'd give him a four or five year deal. And so it was a lot of money, but they hedged a little bit and they hedged a little bit so that they could trade him if it wasn't ideal.
- [22:06]
Tim MacMahon
And they hedged a lot. And the reaction to that contract around the league, I know you guys talk to a lot of people as well about it was, hey, that looks like a contract that's designed to be salary filler in a trade. That was the reaction around Lee talking to people in Houston. They said, hey, like we're not sure this guy's going to be a star, but we think he can. We were certainly open to that possibility and they told me at the time they've been consistent with it. We hope that he turns down that player option and we're maxed him out at that point. We hope that he puts us in a position where he's a max player and we'll be happy to pay him. And again, it's been flashes. It's not been consistent. It's been up and down with him. There's been flashes of brilliance. He also doesn't turn 23 until next month. So the talents. There's talent there. Can he. I don't. Listen, he might end up being on, on a, on a, an elite team, like a more athletic version of Jordan Clarkson, like Just a high level six man type of guy. Or he might be, you know, a guy who can be a 26, 28 point per game scorer.
- [23:19]
Zach Lowe
I think he's Zach Lavine. That's who I've thought he is for a long time. And Zach lavine has been the best player in a lot of bad teams for a long time now. He was never on a team like this Rockets team that has at least the potential to be with the amount of defensive talent they've got around him. And look, he's obviously got a ton of talent, but again, if you look at the sample size of the first 30, some 32 games of the season, he wasn't very good. No, he has had a great two weeks and looks like a bona fide all star. Right? And like that's the question is. And he's obviously, it's not fair to expect anybody of his skill set to shoot 51% and 45 and a half from three over the course of a season. But can he become a guy that's 47% from the field, 40% from three consistently kind of player? If he can, with his athleticism, then he could very well be the guy that the Rockets need for the vast majority of his career. He's been a very inefficient shooter and an extraordinarily streaky player. But as you said, McMahon, he isn't even 23 yet. He's incredibly athletic. He's had some huge games. That was a huge game he had. We haven't even really said he had 42 on Monday night. Tremendous game against a really good defensive team in Memphis. Like one that helped really drive them to that win. And he's a perfect example of they should take the season, they should see what he looks like in a playoff series. They should see what he looks like down the stretch and see how teams guard him in the playoffs, how he handles that situation. Like they're the way their season's gone. In a lot of ways, it's, it's sort of the polar opposite of the warriors, but the outcome is the same. They have, by putting themselves in this position, they have every reason to be patient and let this thing grow and then see what they want to do. And he, he's at the epicenter of a lot of that.
- [25:15]
Brian Windhorst
So about a month ago, the Detroit Pistons were 11 and 17 and that was awesome. They were thrilled with that. You know, they were very famously 3 and 36 on this date a year ago, or infamously, I would say JB Bickerstaff had them improved. Cade Cunningham was, you know, showing promise again. Some of their offseason pickups were showing like they were really helping him, specifically Malik Beasley. And now they have won 10 of 11 to get two games over 521 and 19 after winning in New York on Monday. The game you were at Bond Temps, the Knicks was, it was their third game in four nights and they're just not built to. They just, they're just, they're going to struggle in those situations, especially against a high energy team like Detroit. And also Carl Towns, you know, bang. That's Thumb as you said. So you saw him Bond Temps. This was a game where Cade Cunningham. By the way, did we already do this on the pot? I can't remember. Do you guys remember the last Detroit Pistons all star Blake Griffin? 2000 2019.
- [26:23]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah.
- [26:24]
Zach Lowe
Also the last year they were multiple games over.500. At any point in the season, listen.
- [26:30]
Tim MacMahon
Any point season Kate Cunningham is. It's gone from he has a case to like I. It's really hard to imagine Cade Cunningham.
- [26:40]
Zach Lowe
He'S going to be on the all.
- [26:41]
Tim MacMahon
Star team and especially when you have the kind of performance that he did on that Madison Square Garden stage. Like wow.
- [26:48]
Zach Lowe
Well, let's set this up a little bit. So on Monday night they win this game and Cade ends up finishing with 36 points in 32 minutes. The thing that makes that sort of a remarkable situation is he got four fouls in the first half and got pulled late in the first half. And you're thinking, man, like this could be a rough situation for the Pistons. Couple of them were dumb fouls too. And like man, four fouls first half. JB tried to have him out there late in the half and get got caught, got a fourth one. You're like man, this could be trouble. And then they come out in the second half, he ends up having 18 points in the third quarter. He has 29 in the second half. They win the game and I just, I'm just really happy for the, the Pistons fan base and for that franchise because they it. That has been a real rough situation for a really long time and you're talking about one of the. The proud franchise in the league, won a few titles, obviously has had a lot of great teams and for the better part of 15 years they've basically been in the wilderness. And JB Bickerstaff deserves a ton of credit for getting these guys to play hard and within a defensive structure and looking organized in a way they have not been the past few years. I Think Trajan Langdon and Dennis Lindsay in their front office deserve a lot of credit for going out and getting guys like Tobias Harris and Malik Beasley. And even though I didn't really like them giving up Quentin Grimes in the trade, and he's done very well in Dallas, getting Tim Hardaway, just getting some solid veterans and shooters around Kate Cunningham, finally building an actual infrastructure around him to play. And look, there were people this summer like we've talked about with Evan Mobley, when Kate Cunningham got a max, there were people said, ah, I don't know if I like that contract. At the time, I totally understood it because the franchise has been a mess his first three years in the league. You have this new leadership group coming in, new coach, new front office. It's a signal to Kate Cunningham that, hey, we believe in you, we're investing in you. We're going to build this thing around you going forward as the former number one pick. And he has made them look good for doing that. And you look at the trade market, we've talked a lot about how there's not a lot of guys really available this year. It's not a lot going on. Part of that is you look at a team like the Pistons people that a team people didn't think was going to be that good. Malik Beasley and Tim Hardaway as expiring contract shooters are guys that on a typical year, if the Pistons have been struggling, they'd be some of the more coveted guys on the market instead. I mean, there's no way Detroit's moving off these guys when they're a half game out of sixth place in the East. Like, they're gonna let this thing incubate and ride out. And it's just really fun to see.
- [29:31]
Brian Windhorst
Incubate McMahon coming together.
- [29:34]
Tim MacMahon
Wow, that's a bunch of vocab words in this one. And Wendy, you even brought up recently like, it's gone from, hey, they've got cap space to rent. You know, Detroit can be a facilitator. And that still could be the case. You know, both things can be true. Maybe there is. Maybe the way it works out is they decide, okay, that's in the best interest because obviously you got to have a long term view. But maybe Detroit's a team that's looking to get better at the trade deadline.
- [30:02]
Zach Lowe
I'm just saying I hope they don't.
- [30:04]
Tim MacMahon
If they do, I think it's got to be a situation where it's a play.
- [30:08]
Brian Windhorst
I'm not arguing their first round pick or anything. Bond temps, but I'M just saying, like.
- [30:12]
Tim MacMahon
Oh, speaking of their first round pick, by the way, you know who could benefit pretty significantly from the. The Pistons rise this season?
- [30:20]
Zach Lowe
The Minnesota Timberwolves.
- [30:22]
Tim MacMahon
Minnesota Timberwolves. Who got that, that Detroit pick that's been passed all over the league. It's gone from Detroit to Houston to OKC to New York to Minnesota.
- [30:33]
Zach Lowe
It's top Minnesota in the cat trade.
- [30:35]
Tim MacMahon
Yep. Top 14 protected. And lo and behold, the, the Timberwolves, who certainly could use more young talent, they could get a pick in the teens because the Pistons worked their way into the playoffs this year.
- [30:48]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, one of the reasons why the Knicks were happy with trading that pick because they weren't sure that it was going to convey ever.
- [30:54]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I never liked that. I never liked that thinking. It's top 13, top 11, top nine. There was. I just never. I always thought that was one of the more valuable picks in the league that I. Minnesota did a great job getting it in the deal. I didn't think it was conveying this year as a top 13 protected pick. And we'll see if it does. We'll see if that Detroit gets in the playoffs. But you know, look, just to give.
- [31:16]
Tim MacMahon
You an idea how long that pick's been bouncing around, it originally was in the deal that was part of the Christian Wood sign and trade with the Rockets.
- [31:25]
Zach Lowe
Right. And then was, I believe, part of the trade. If I remember right, it was part of the trade that landed Houston, Al Parin. Shangoon.
- [31:33]
Tim MacMahon
Shangoon.
- [31:34]
Zach Lowe
And part of the trade that got Usman Jang to Oklahoma City and then obviously part of the Carl Town also.
- [31:39]
Brian Windhorst
It's, it's hamstrung. It's hamstrung the Pistons trading for first round picks going forward because it keeps rolling over and you keep running into the Stepian role where you can't trade back to back picks. So they haven't been. It's, it's sort of, it's kept them from, you know, they've been in a rebuild anyway, so they've never been trading their first round pick.
- [31:58]
Tim MacMahon
And listen, if the Pistons give up the 15th, 16th, 17th pick, they'll be ecstatic because there's nothing better for a young team. And even though we've mentioned the veterans they brought in, this is a team that's built around Cade Cunningham and you know, their recent lottery picks. Unfortunately, Jay N. Ivey's probably not coming back this year.
- [32:18]
Brian Windhorst
But hold on. On that.
- [32:20]
Tim MacMahon
Oh really?
- [32:21]
Brian Windhorst
I asked the Pistons whether they were going to apply for a disabled player exception because even though they've Got cap space. Sometimes it's something. Whenever you lose a player long term, you can apply and you can get an exception you can use to sign or to acquire a player. It's hard to use, but teams use it. And the last I heard, they were not planning on doing that because.
- [32:45]
Tim MacMahon
So maybe there is some hope.
- [32:46]
Brian Windhorst
They think there's a. There's a hope. You know, he broke his fibia. I mean, it's a serious injury, but, you know, who knows if they make the playoffs or whatever. But obviously, point being for Kate, he's out a while, but, you know, maybe, maybe not the last time we've seen him this year.
- [33:04]
Tim MacMahon
For Cade Cunningham and company, maybe even including Jaden Ivy, there would be nothing better for their development than having the opportunity to fight for a playoff berth down the stretch and get into the playoffs and, you know, be in that atmosphere and that sort of, you know, that. That sort of pressure, that would be phenomenal for their development.
- [33:25]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. And so I do think that they. So they've got 14 million in cap space. I do think that they will still facilitate trades. I think where their thinking has evolved is they're going to be careful taking on players for multiple years that may not be valuable players to their roster. Now, I don't think that they're in position to have cap space because Cade Cunningham's signing is going to kick in and eat up a lot of that, eat a lot of their cap. So it might also make sense for them to take on a player that has years left on his contract that they could use in a trade next year. But I do think that their thinking has evolved with their. What they're willing to do. So another reason, by the way. Why? Because, you know, whenever you see these trades, you always need a third team. You can, you can. You always think, well, what about Utah? What about Charlotte? What about Detroit? You know, Detroit's getting a little bit more selective. You know, we'll see whether or not.
- [34:29]
Zach Lowe
That could slow down the market more.
- [34:32]
Tim MacMahon
Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [34:36]
Brian Windhorst
I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to H and.
- [34:40]
Zach Lowe
R Block in about one minute. All I had to do was drag.
- [34:42]
Brian Windhorst
And drop last year's return into H and R Block.
- [34:44]
Zach Lowe
And bam.
- [34:45]
Brian Windhorst
My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for all my old papers to switch.
- [34:51]
Zach Lowe
Nope. Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game.
- [34:55]
Tim MacMahon
Switching to H and R Block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return.
- [34:59]
Brian Windhorst
It's better with block.
- [35:02]
Tim MacMahon
You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home.
- [35:06]
Zach Lowe
That you didn't have to cook. Meet Factor your loophole in the laws of mealtime.
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Tim MacMahon
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Zach Lowe
Ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals.
- [35:20]
Tim MacMahon
Factor is dietitian approved.
- [35:22]
Zach Lowe
Chef prepared and you plated.
- [35:24]
Brian Windhorst
Pretty smart huh?
- [35:25]
Tim MacMahon
Refresh your routine and eat smart with factor. Learn more@factormeal.com.
- [35:37]
Brian Windhorst
Let'S take a look out to LA where they started playing games again on Monday as we hope that there's going to be good news coming out of la. Got some dangerous days ahead with the weather but hopefully there's some more positive news coming out of that. Now we did get back to basketball and the Clippers ended the heats winning streak on Monday. Norm Powell, I don't know if he can get on that all star team but he's continuing the the push for it. He had a brilliant game. But I think more importantly for the Clippers who are in playoff position right now, is that Kawhi Leonard is back playing now. He is playing very limited minutes. They've been openly saying they they're basically treating this like his preseason. So he's going through games like you would go through preseason games. He hasn't made much of an impact yet. He's even said I don't want to play a lot of minutes because when I overdo it we have problems. Having said all that, the Clippers have their star player back and if it's a Zubak had a 2020 game against the Celtic or against the Heat with no Bam Adebayo in that game. Clippers are bontemps are they are one of the pleasant surprises in the league this year and now they've got Kawhi.
- [36:48]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean I was just looking it up quick. So he's been in three games so far and he was plus 22 in his first game. He was plus 2 in last night's win. I mean he was pretty heavy minus in a loss to Minnesota in the other game, but yeah, look, I mean Tyler deserves a ton of credit for having this team playing hard and together and committed throughout the year. They've built the thing around James Harden picking roles with the center like we've seen a lot throughout his career in the league. James Harden is not the player he once was, but he's still a guy that can drive pretty efficient offense on an basis. Aika Zubac has been quietly one of the better defensive bigs in the league the last few years. He's having a career Offensively and you know, they've grinded through a lot of wins by having a deep, versatile roster that really gets after it every night defensively. And, you know, if Kawhi can come back and give them some version of himself over the next couple of months, I think they've got a real chance to be in the top eight in the West. And considering where things sat with them a few months ago and where we thought they were going to be when Kawhi was not there to start the year and they got off to that, I think 04 start, lost all those games, those close games at home at the, the toilet bowl, and we were wondering if this season was just going to go completely sideways for him. They've really stabilized it quite nicely. And as you look at it now, as of this, after Tuesday afternoon, I mean, they're sitting there in sixth in the west and they're a half game behind Dallas and 5th and you know, giving themselves a real shot of having a above.500 very solid season among some trying circumstances.
- [38:22]
Tim MacMahon
And what the front office really did this summer was acquired a group of defensive minded, tough, you know, versatile dudes and Derrick Jones juniors play extremely well for them. Chris Dunn has played extremely well for them. You know, Nick Batum has been a solid vet. You know, his numbers aren't anything pretty to look at, but certainly he's part of the reason they're one of the better defensive teams in the league. And then Amir Coffey, a guy who's kind of been developmental player for him, has taken a leap and he's become a pretty significant contributor to this. And I want to be careful with how I word this, but I think the Kawhi situation right now is more of a challenge than a boost. And what I mean by that is obviously he's, he is ramping up slowly. That is preseason. He's going to be in and out of the lineups. He's not going to be playing back to backs when he's on the floor. It's kind of like everything revolves around Kawhi, where they've been playing a certain way for the entire year. And like last year in the playoffs when he was in and out in that series against the Mavericks, the Clippers were better without him because with him it's like everybody kind of felt out of a rhythm now, you know, they don't have Paul George this year, although Norm Powell has picked up that offensive slack. The, the end goal, of course, is to be a dangerous team come playoff time and if they don't Have Kawhi at, I don't know, 85% of his powers, then that's not a real possibility. And that's why kind of the challenge of getting Kawhi. Hopefully something close to up to speed is worth it. Even though it might be a bumpy road for a little bit in the meantime.
- [40:17]
Brian Windhorst
Well, across town, the Lakers, because of the cancellations, they actually haven't won a game in almost two weeks. You got a three game losing streak. Had a terrible second half against the victor and the spurs on Monday. The Spurs, I think was tied going into the fourth quarter and the spurs ended up winning by 18 or 20 or something like that. I mean, it was, it was like 37 to the fourth quarter.
- [40:39]
Zach Lowe
Score was 37 to 13.
- [40:42]
Tim MacMahon
Well, poor Michael Cooper, he got his jersey, his number retired and then he's doing the little sideline interviewer. And it was rudely interrupted by the spurs having a dunk contest in the background. They threw down like four.
- [40:56]
Zach Lowe
Second half. Yeah, in the second half of 73 to 40. It was a rough, rough.
- [41:01]
Brian Windhorst
I actually like the, those Lake show. You know, I don't like the term lake show, but I kind of like those lake show uniforms that the Lakers have. But you're retiring a guy's number and putting up the gold jersey in the rafters.
- [41:16]
Tim MacMahon
Come on, where the gold?
- [41:17]
Brian Windhorst
Where are the gold? I mean, come on, what are we doing?
- [41:19]
Zach Lowe
Seems like this seems like the easy.
- [41:21]
Tim MacMahon
Choice, but they, the Lakers really have a defensive issue that they've gonna have to find a way to figure out because their biggest defensive problem against the spurs was also their biggest defensive problem against the Luca and Kyrilis Mavericks, who were in a bit of a tailspin when the Lakers came to town and blew the Lakers out that night. And the Mavericks were very like just blunt about it after the game. Like they just kept hunting the guy that they want to go at and that was Austin Reeves. And you saw the same thing last night and they were hunting it. It's not like, you know, they were just going at him with Harrison Barnes, who. Barnes is a quality veteran role player. But the days of just give Barnes the ball and let him, let him bully for bucket after bucket, you thought those were when the Mavericks are winning about 30 games. So it was pretty scary to see Reeves again just getting absolutely picked on defensively. And he's one of their best offensive players. They need him to be a big part of things. They need to figure out how to protect him on the other end because it's, it's not Pretty well.
- [42:28]
Brian Windhorst
They, they made the, they made the Finney Smith trade obviously, to deal with their defense in the six. And like, look, it's small sample size. He hasn't started any games. He was a starter in. In Brooklyn. He's playing less minutes in LA. But since they made that trade, they're 28th in defense, so. And it's not about him. They're not using them much, whatever. But you know, that trade was supposed to help their defense and it's made it worse.
- [42:53]
Zach Lowe
Well, they just don't have a lot of defensive talent. I mean, that, that's the problem. Like Dorian Finney Smith at this point, his career is a seventh or eighth guy, which is the role he's playing there. He can't really guard perimeter players. He needs to guard big wings and centers. And like you said, McBan, the catch 22 for the Lakers is Austin Reeves as their point guard is their best lineup. But if you can't keep him from being hunted like that, then he can get taken advantage of at the other end. And you know, you look at their roster like last night, outside of Gabe Vincent, who obviously has flopped overall there, like, Cam Reddish can't shoot the ball. He's never been that great a defensive player anyway. He's just athletic. They're playing, you know, Jackson Ace is a center. Max Christie is playing a bunch of minutes for him as a young developmental wing, but he's not a stopper. Rui's not a stopper. LeBron certainly isn't one at this point in his career.
- [43:46]
Brian Windhorst
Like, Vanderbilt continues to be out.
- [43:48]
Zach Lowe
Yes. The. The mythics. The mythic.
- [43:50]
Tim MacMahon
His return is imminent.
- [43:52]
Zach Lowe
All their issues.
- [43:53]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, but like, listen, Jared Vanderbilt will give a little boost to the bench, probably. But like, to act like the return of Jared Vanderbilt is just going to solve everything is silly.
- [44:05]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, they just, they just don't have the ability to slow down any of these teams. So it, you know, I mean, look, they're not gonna have fourth quarters. Like, that was obviously an outlier fourth quarter on Monday night. But it's just, you know, like, they're right now 20 and 17. That's probably as good as you could possibly.
- [44:24]
Brian Windhorst
I agree.
- [44:25]
Zach Lowe
Especially when again, like last year, their two guys have missed a combined five games like this is. It's remarkable, frankly, the amount of health those two guys have had the last two years. And they've been available all the time. But if either one of them, LeBron or AD starts to miss any time over the back half of the year, this thing they could be in Some trouble because like this is, this is about what I think you can expect from them if all things are clicking. They're a 45ish win team which is.
- [44:57]
Brian Windhorst
So through 37 games. So they're whether 20 and 17 through 37 games. Last year they were 18 and 19. And let's see, last year they had 47 wins. The year before they had 43 wins. Playing teams both years they're on pace for about 44, 45 right now. I mean they're, this is who they are.
- [45:18]
Tim MacMahon
I'm starting to wonder if everything wasn't Darvin Ham's fault.
- [45:24]
Brian Windhorst
Before we go on, special announcement. Happy birthday. Our guy Jackson Agello, whose birthday was on Monday.
- [45:31]
Tim MacMahon
Wow.
- [45:33]
Zach Lowe
Happy birthday, Jackson.
- [45:34]
Brian Windhorst
Hope you enjoyed it. Nothing like a Monday night in January to celebrate another loop around the sun. Bontemps. You're going down to Florida this week and I have no idea what you're walking into.
- [45:49]
Zach Lowe
I don't either.
- [45:50]
Tim MacMahon
Oh, I got an idea.
- [45:53]
Brian Windhorst
I don't, I really don't. So Shams came out with the story today saying that Pat Riley had met with Jimmy Butler face to face. Jimmy said, appreciate the meeting. I still want to be traded. His suspension ends after Wednesday's game in la. He is expected to meet with Mickey Harrison at some point this week. The team owner and his suspension will end as far as I know. And I mean I, I, the suspension has to end because the, I would be stunned if this gets upheld in arbitration.
- [46:26]
Zach Lowe
I mean it's going to end because it was seven games and we'll see what happens on Friday then we'll see where it goes from there because again they're in this weird situation where even if they wanted to send them home and everything I've been told from my reporting is that they didn't want to send him home, they want him to play is because of the player participation policy. I don't think they would technically be allowed to just do what PJ Tucker has done and to basically disappeared from the earth for the past year since he got traded to the Clippers. So one way or the other, I think we're probably going to see Jimmy Butler on Friday in some shape or form and we'll see what it looks like.
- [47:01]
Tim MacMahon
Well, and, and, and they can't just, if, if it reached a point where there's like, we're done. You're right. You're never going to play here again. They can't cut him. He has a player option for next year.
- [47:12]
Brian Windhorst
Well, really if, you know, you could always say to Jimmy hey, you want to be a free agent, we'll just decline your player option and we'll cut you. You can go sign with anybody you want.
- [47:23]
Tim MacMahon
Well, not anybody, because he's, you know, the, the new CBA with that salary. Not anybody.
- [47:29]
Brian Windhorst
You're right. Anyway, that's not going to happen.
- [47:31]
Tim MacMahon
He couldn't be Dyna's hair purple and orange.
- [47:34]
Brian Windhorst
They didn't. The key is they didn't just suspend Jimmy Butler because he said probably not, that he would find his joy in, in Miami. They suspended him because of how he was behaving on the court the last couple of games, which they believe was less than his best. He can testify that it wasn't. Well, that'll be hashed out in arbitration. The point is that Jimmy hasn't gotten what he's wanted. And so if you bring him back on the court, you're risking that same thing happening. And players pretty much down the line during this west coast trip have. They haven't talked about Jimmy directly, but they've talked about how the vibes are good. We'll see how it finishes up in la. But it's definitely a tough situation that we haven't seen too often in the league. But I can tell you that Jimmy has no problem being uncomfortable. He will.
- [48:21]
Tim MacMahon
We could have told you that this summer after he got out of Minnesota.
- [48:26]
Zach Lowe
I mean, intractable. The, the intractable part of the problem here for everybody involved is that Jimmy Butler can't get what he wants. Right. Jimmy Butler wants to get traded. And there's not an obvious landing spot for him to get to that he can realistically get to. And so that is why this situation is what it is. If he could get a solid trade offer for Jimmy Butler, I suspect Jimmy Butler would have already changed.
- [48:49]
Brian Windhorst
I think the definition of solid would depend on who you ask, sir. Ok, I will say this.
- [48:54]
Zach Lowe
The Heat, it's not, it's not the deals that are available, they are not solid offers.
- [48:58]
Brian Windhorst
And frankly, regardless of how uncomfortable it is, you don't take a deal that you don't want on January 16th 17th, you, you know, if you're going to take a deal you don't want and you have to make a trade, you take that deal February 6th or thereabouts.
- [49:13]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah. And by the way, there's draft pick drama here too. It is lottery protected this year. O2. Who else? Oklahoma City Thunder. And if it doesn't, if it doesn't get conveyed this year, it's unprotected next year.
- [49:29]
Zach Lowe
Listen, by the way, that makes their here in 70th place to Charlotte automatically unprotected also. So if that happens, so they go from having no unprotected picks to having two unprotected picks out if they don't make the playoffs this year and they're.
- [49:40]
Brian Windhorst
In seventh place, it's not like they're in 11th, they're in seventh. So. All right. Thank you for putting up with me in my voice. Thank you to Bontemps. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Rafa and Jackson, our producers. Thank you for watching listening to Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you soon.
- [49:54]
Tim MacMahon
Adios, amigos.
- [50:16]
Zach Lowe
In case you didn't know, these young.
- [50:18]
Tim MacMahon
Men are driven, quite remarkable, magnificent and unmistakable. These are the prodigies, the savants, the ones we've been waiting for. And they are not asking for you to pass the baton. They are methodically planning the perfect moment to take it.
- [50:33]
Zach Lowe
A new generation of Toyota drivers are.
- [50:36]
Tim MacMahon
Here and they want you to know one thing.
- [50:38]
Zach Lowe
You can't stop my drive.