Does Harden Make The Cavs Contenders? How Wide Open Is The East?

Summary

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Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode: Does Harden Make The Cavs Contenders? How Wide Open Is The East?

Date: February 9, 2026
Host: Brian Windhorst
Panelists: Tim Bontemps, Tim MacMahon
Synopsis: The crew discusses James Harden's debut with Cleveland, the wild dynamics in the Eastern Conference, and the up-and-down seasons of contenders like the Timberwolves, Pistons, Hornets, and more.

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode dives deep into two burning NBA storylines:

• Does James Harden’s arrival make the Cleveland Cavaliers true contenders, or is it just classic Harden?
• How extraordinarily wide open is the Eastern Conference playoff race, with traditional powers unsure, surprise teams vaulting up the standings, and the playoff picture in flux?

The larger discussion reflects on Harden’s immediate impact, the Cavaliers’ playoff outlook, shifting balance in the East, and organizational dysfunction—especially examining tanking and front office decision-making.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. James Harden's Debut with the Cavs & What It Means (04:36–15:54)

• James Harden’s First Game: Harden made his Cavs debut in Sacramento after days of not practicing or attending shootarounds. Both Harden and Donovan Mitchell erupted for big fourth quarters, pulling out a comeback win over a tanking Kings squad.
  • "James Harden and Donovan Mitchell both had big fourth quarters ... both had over 15 points in the first game ... something like that in their first game." – Brian Windhorst (05:00)
• The 'Harden Experience': Questions about Harden's commitment surface—he missed practices, shootarounds, and appeared in an Adidas commercial immediately after the trade, fueling the “Harden Experience” narrative.
  • "Cavs corner has gotten its first full dose of the James Harden experience." – Tim Bontemps (08:11)
• Initial On-Court Impact: Immediate upgrade over Darius Garland due to steady scoring, playmaking, and durability.
  • "James Harden is just flat out better right now, especially and probably for this season, than Darius Garland ... they're clearly going to be a better team with James Harden." – Tim Bontemps (14:50)
• Long-Term Questions: Garland’s contract health risk; Harden’s age and durability; The risk/reward calculation in swapping young assets for an aging star to appease Donovan Mitchell and keep him long-term.
  • "Are we sure Darius Garland is not a toxic contract at this point because of all these toe and foot injuries?" – Bontemps (16:22)
  • "It makes them better now and next year. But James is going to be in his late 30s. So you’re extending to play with who?" – MacMahon (15:54)

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2. The “Wide Open” Eastern Conference (43:34–48:41)

• Parity & Unpredictability: Any of 5-6 teams could make a deep run—Boston, Detroit, Knicks, Cavs, Philly, even the surging Hornets (“Buzz City Killers”).
  • "I can't remember a conference that was actually this wide open." – Windhorst (45:21)
  • "These playoffs, you could make a case for Detroit ... Boston, especially if Jason Tatum comes back ... the Knicks ... Cavs corner ... if Philly is healthy ... Hornets. Plus 30 per 100. Sure, why not?" – Bontemps (44:22)
• No True Favorite: Rapid team ascension (Pistons, Hornets), historic underachievement by usual stalwarts, and major injury uncertainty create a landscape with no clear favorite.
  • "I can't differentiate them at all." – Windhorst (45:21)

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3. Surging Charlotte Hornets - From Tankers to Threat (27:26–39:12)

• Hornets’ Hot Streak: 9-game win streak for the first time since pre-move to New Orleans. Ascending from presumed tanking to a dangerous playoff team.
  • "They started the season 4 and 14 ... bunch of injuries. Real talk was they were supposed to be bad one more year ... best month 5 point differential ever." – Bontemps (29:22)
• Statistical Dominance: New starting lineup is among NBA’s most effective; outscoring by +30 per 100 possessions.
  • "That starting lineup is now up to 230 minutes. It’s plus 30 per 100 possessions ... 9th in minutes played, plus 30, 500." – Bontemps (31:16)
• Key Additions: The Kobe White Trade (with a post-deadline injury twist), playing style fits, and more.
• Historical Context: Last playoff berth in 2016, prior to the play-in era.

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4. Tanking, League Structure, and the “Flip” Plan (20:39–41:35)

• Tanking Concerns: Open discussion of league-wide tanking, especially with loaded upcoming draft; teams not playing key players, wholescale strategic losses.
  • "We now have literally a third of the league punting games—like, that’s just not, that can’t be the best path forward." – Bontemps (21:49)
• Proposed Solutions: “Flip”/“Slingshot” rule to discourage tanking by having late-season wins count extra or only some games factoring into the lottery.
• Anecdotes: Teams receiving injured players for tanking, frustration and dark humor about teams wishing their own “discoveries” were more helpful (e.g., accidental injury finds for players they don't plan to play).

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5. Contender Check-Ins and Notable Games (12:42–26:11, 52:08–63:53)

• Kawhi Leonard’s Resurgence: Kawhi posting career-best stats for the Clippers just as the team is being torn down post-Harden trade.
  • "All of these years ... derailed because Kawhi wasn’t right ... This is the best he’s played since he was in Toronto." – Windhorst (12:42)
• Pistons, Knicks, Others: Detroit’s playoff readiness, Knicks recovering from embarrassing Pistons loss, defense and emerging young cores.
  • "Pistons have outscored the Knicks by 60 points in their games this year." – Windhorst (36:59)
• Minnesota Timberwolves: Chronic inconsistency, internal strife—Rudy Gobert’s postgame call-outs (55:07), and the aftermath.
  • "At some point, if the players don’t have accountability, someone has to have accountability for the players." – Gobert (54:26)
  • "He’s calling out Finch for not benching Ant and Randall. If you watch the game, it’s not hard to figure out what he’s talking about." – Windhorst (55:19)
• Clippers, Wolves, Pelicans: Various stretches of dominance mixed with catastrophic losses – the panel is skeptical of their ability to string together wins consistently.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

James Harden in Cleveland

• "He got there seemingly Saturday afternoon. Didn’t walk through anything. Walked out there and scored a bunch of points and played great. This is the James Harden experience all the way around." – Tim Bontemps (08:18)
• "It's made them better. And you know, listen, if Donovan is ... happy enough to where he extends, then that’s ... the whole purpose of this." – MacMahon (15:54)

The Wide Open East

• "These playoffs, ... you could make a case for Detroit, ... Boston, ... Knicks, ... Cavs, ... Philly, ... Hornets. Plus 30 per 100. Sure, why not?" – Bontemps (44:22)
• "We've branded them on NBA Today, we've branded them the Buzz City Killers." – Windhorst (45:02)

Tanking & League Critique

• "We now have literally a third of the league punting games—like, that's just not, that can't be the best path forward." – Bontemps (21:49)

Minnesota Timberwolves Dysfunction

• "At some point, if the players don't have accountability, someone has to have accountability for the players." – Rudy Gobert (54:26)
• "He just really has a clumsy way of pissing off everybody around him at times ... he did it in Utah. He's done it in Minnesota." – MacMahon (57:05)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|-------------------| | 04:36 | Harden’s Cavs debut, his style, missing practices/shootarounds | | 08:11 | The “James Harden Experience” in Cleveland | | 12:42 | Kawhi Leonard’s resurgence, impact of Harden trade | | 14:44 | Evaluation of Harden vs Garland, playoff prospects | | 20:39 | Open discussion of tanking, "Flip" or "Slingshot" league fix | | 27:26 | Hornets' surge, best start since 1999, lineup dominance | | 30:46 | Kobe White trade details, buyer/seller dynamics at deadline | | 36:59 | Pistons-Knicks games, young core development | | 43:34 | Wide open Eastern Conference, no true favorite | | 54:26 | Rudy Gobert calls out Wolves’ effort and coaching | | 57:03 | Chris Finch responds to Gobert, Wolves’ inconsistency | | 62:34 | Wolves’ future, penny pinching, deadline moves |

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Flow & Tone

The episode is banter-heavy, laced with sarcasm, NBA-insider asides, and sharp analysis. The hosts maintain a conversational, fast-moving pace, often interjecting with anecdotes and side commentary, but always looping back to the key basketball issues and big picture themes.

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Episode Takeaways

• Harden in Cleveland = Immediate Boost, Long-Term Uncertainty: His playmaking elevates the Cavs now, but raises questions about future sustainability and the wisdom of gambling young assets on short windows.
• The East is Wide Open: There’s genuinely no consensus favorite, with parity up and down the standings, new contenders rising, and the playoff field utterly unpredictable.
• Charlotte and Detroit’s Rises Are Real: Both previously tanking teams are riding statistical excellence and winning streaks to leapfrog expectations.
• League Tanking Remains a Crisis: The crew is blunt about the tanking epidemic and explores ways the league might address it.
• Minnesota’s Dysfunction: Gobert’s public criticism of teammates/coaching is emblematic of deeper team chemistry and leadership issues, as the Wolves oscillate between high/potential and puzzling underperformance.

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This summary is designed so that even without hearing the podcast, any NBA fan will be fully informed on the major discussions, insight, and character of the conversation.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Monday morning after midnight eastern time Sunday night. Monday morning. Joining us from New York City, Tim Bontemps.

[A]

Hello, everybody.

[B]

Joining us from Los angeles. So Bontemps, McMahon was in Oklahoma City on Saturday. Had a beautiful seat right in the front row. Whole lot of TV time for the.

[A]

Thunder game, as is his way. A lot of TV time for McMahon.

[B]

That's right. That's how he rolls. And I was leaving out of LA tonight and the plane was coming in from Oklahoma City. So this might be McMahon's flight. Oh, no. McMahon doesn't fly regional jets. He doesn't. He doesn't fly. He doesn't. He doesn't drive to Oklahoma City. He does not fly regional jets. This, this guy changed planes to fly a big plane so that he wouldn't, he couldn't be, wouldn't take the non stop. That is insane stuff. It's Ben McMahon.

[C]

Howdy, partners. As usual, there are elements of truth to your story. It is not a bias against regional jets. I simply arranged my travel to where I would be able to get to the hotel in time to watch the Super Bowl.

[A]

That was a huge mistake.

[C]

Listen, it wasn't the most exciting game in the world, but like I, at.

[A]

Least the Patriots lost. That's all.

[C]

I don't, I don't miss Super Bowls. Like I've never missed a Super bowl since I've been, I don't know, five years old.

[B]

So what was your first super bowl that you remember?

[C]

I don't mind. You know what? I'm not even. I don't know. That's a good question.

[B]

I don't totally price out our, our audience here. No, the audience.

[C]

The first football game that I vividly remember was not a Super bowl, but it was Dwight Clark making the catch. So the Cowboys didn't, didn't make the Super Bowl.

[B]

That's. You just showed your hand right there, buddy.

[C]

You know, whatever. I also have a great memory. Here's why I vividly remember that my older brother, because I burst into tears and was just like melting down My brother became a 49ers fan that night and remains one to this day.

[A]

So I wonder where you got it from. I wonder where you got the. I wonder where you got the. That streak from in your. In your personality. Mine was Bill's Giants when I was six. That was mine. Wonderful memory.

[B]

And which I don't. Which Bill's loss was that. I don't remember how it went down.

[A]

That was the first one. The first one and the closest one.

[B]

All right, that was Norwood.

[A]

That's right. Wide race.

[B]

Sorry, sorry. First one I remember was Giants. Well, I remember these Giant games. Giants, Broncos, Elway versus Phil Sims. I don't think it was close.

[A]

It was not close.

[B]

Yeah. All right, there's our football talk. And that concludes our football analysis.

[A]

Yes, we're old. That's right.

[B]

People are shutting it down, going, my God, I don't know why I listen to these old guys. All right, so this week we had an interesting weekend in the NBA. Some significant games. The NBA taking over. Starting to take over the weekends now. Lots of national TV games over the weekend. I wiped a tear away when football season ended, not because I'm unmist football, but because it means our lives are about to be over.

[C]

You're a little dramatic, but okay.

[B]

More than a little.

[A]

His life is pretty good, folks, just to be clear.

[B]

ESPN is going to be like, oh, that's right. There's basketball on.

[C]

The NBA certainly becomes a larger priority at this point.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Anyway, so number of games this weekend, one of the interesting ones was James Harden's debut with the Cavs in Sacramento on Saturday night. Now, it's hard to kind of tell. Sacramento's lost, like, 13 in a row. It's kind of hard to tell when they're tanking.

[C]

No, they're. They're tanking when they pull the starters for crunch time. It's a pretty clear tank.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's.

[C]

They're not alone.

[B]

They don't even. They don't even. Yeah, well, that's a whole nother story. But they didn't even on Friday. They only played some of their starters, like 18 minutes. I think Zach Levine played 18 minutes on Friday against the Clippers. But so one of the things that the Cavs, you know, you know, they. They came back. They were down in the fourth quarter. They came back and won. It was, you know, the Kings folded down the stretch because, you know, they were playing a bunch of guys who were just either on two ways or just converted from two ways. And DeMar DeRozan did finish the game. But anyway, you know, the Cavs were talking about how James Harden, like, you know, he. James Harden and Donovan Mitchell both had big fourth quarters that they played their first game together. Both had over 15 points in the fourth quarter. I think that was the first time that had happened. Two different players, something like that. First time that had happened in the play by play era, something like that in their first game. I don't know. Whatever it was. Anyway. And after the game, Kenny Atkinson was, you know, praising James Harden because he's like, you know, he didn't even have a practice or a shooter on. He just came and we. We got going. I was like, wait a minute. James Harden got traded on Tuesday. The Cavs were in Los Angeles. Okay.

[A]

Was he? No.

[B]

Yes. Well, he was in Phoenix on Monday, but by Tuesday he was in Los Angeles.

[A]

I thought he stayed in Phoenix.

[B]

Well, Ramona Shelburne wrote this whole story where he was, like, going and saying goodbye to everybody.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's right. He went to the facility and did all that.

[B]

So he got traded on Tuesday. The Cavs were. The Cavs played Wednesday against the Clippers. James did not come to the game. Well, I shouldn't say that. He might have been in the back. He didn't come out. Darius Garland sat on the Clipper bench and was regaled by his teammates and welcomed by the fans. But Harden, like, I don't know. He wasn't there. I don't know where he went. I don't know what he was. But he didn't practice on Wednesday, didn't practice on Thursday, didn't practice on Friday, didn't come to shoot around on Saturday. So I was like, okay, well, look, you get traded, like, you know, you have to get your life together. I guess.

[C]

I guess.

[B]

But he didn't practice. Then yesterday, during the day, a commercial comes out on social media with James Harden, a new Adidas commercial with him talking about going to play in Cleveland.

[A]

I guess that's what he was doing.

[B]

I don't know. For all I know, he thought there were. You know, he shot this commercial a while ago knowing that there's a chance, you know, that he. Maybe he did, like seven of them, you know, places. I don't have the information about his movements. I'm just saying, a commercial came out where he said, he's walking around showing off his new shoes. They look pretty. They look pretty cool, to be honest with you.

[A]

Fire, fire, fire.

[B]

I am not the target demographic, but I thought they looked pretty.

[A]

I thought.

[B]

I thought it was an Effective shoe ad. It was him so far. So we're saying, did you guys even see it? No, I'm not.

[A]

I'm not all right.

[B]

He's like, I'm headed out east. I'm going to the land. I guess it could have been like AI dubbing that. It was a different commercial. My point is, a commercial came out that made it look like he had filmed it in the previous three days and he did not practice.

[A]

However, it sounds like to me, McMahon. It sounds like to me, Cav's corner has gotten its first full dose of the James Harden experience.

[B]

That's what I was saying.

[A]

That's what it sounds like.

[B]

Fourth quarter and scored a bunch of points and played great.

[A]

Yeah, he came in and up win the game like, this is the James Harden experience all the way around. Like, you know, he. He had a good game. The Cavs won. He got there seemingly Saturday afternoon. Didn't walk through anything. Walked out there.

[B]

And one more thing. Sorry to cut you off. I asked.

[A]

It's all good.

[B]

I said, well, he didn't even have shoot around. And I was told, well, the shoot around was optional. You know, sometimes teams, when they've had a practice stuff, they'll have like just an optional shoot around. Cause they'll have gone over their game plan of practice and typically it's the quote, unquote, stay ready, guys. Usually the.

[A]

Usually the guys who've been traded to a team will be around to like, learn.

[B]

Exactly. I said, well, why was it optional if the guy hadn't. All right, look, I don't have the full information. I wasn't with the team in Sacramento. I may be screwing all this up and I may have to apologize to the Cavs tomorrow.

[C]

No, they're like, hey, we're playing the Kings. You know, we didn't have to.

[B]

Well, that's a fair point.

[C]

They're trying to lose and it's fine.

[A]

Yeah, go ahead.

[C]

You know who has had the full James Harden experience over and over and over again?

[B]

You.

[C]

Daryl Morey. Oh, and man.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Daryl Morey. I mean, what a spicy little press conference he had. Like, forget the little jab. He took a Jerry McCain selling high. When Daryl Morey said that.

[B]

That's what the Clippers said when they traded. The last time that somebody made a deal with with Oklahoma City, they go, we sold high on shake. I'm just kidding. They didn't say that. They didn't say that. Aggregators. They didn't say that.

[C]

I'm not sure McCain is going to have that kind of impact in OKC. But when Maury said, you know, you look at the moves made by our Eastern Conference competitors and Basie said he didn't see any that moved the needle.

[B]

With a deadpan, straight face, he said it.

[C]

Listen, I am.

[A]

Here's what I'm praying for. I am praying for first round. Cavs. Sixers. Cavs. Sixers. Give it to me. Four, five. James Harden going up against the Sixers, his former team going up against Daryl Morey. After the whole drama from a couple of years ago, the Sixers have a couple of really juicy picks in the out years. James wanted to help the Clippers rebuild.

[C]

Yeah, he's.

[A]

He's hurt their future rebuild by the trade that came in for him in the first place.

[B]

Let me just say about James Harden, I don't know if he knew or whatever, but he got out and then they traded Zubac. Like, I don't know what was first, chicken or the egg. Maybe he knew they were trading Zubotch.

[A]

I would, I would. Well, I would say that. I would say that James's trade precipitated the other trade. I would say.

[C]

But either way, listen, I just want to know where Darryl Moore, what he did with his basketball. Jesus T shirt.

[B]

Forget about the T shirt. What about the portrait?

[C]

Yeah, no, I mean that's probably no longer hanging. Like, has he donated that to like an art museum or something? I don't know. Is a T shirt. Like, can you rummage through like thrift shops in Philly and maybe stumble upon that T shirt? Did Dan Gilbert meet? I guess wouldn't be Dan Gilbert. Did Kobe Altman meet James at the plane wearing his own basketball Jesus T shirt?

[B]

They didn't have to meet him at the plane. They were in the same city.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

I mean, meet him at the Uber. Very convenient. You think they sent him a car?

[C]

He's probably got a few of his own.

[B]

Yeah, well, the ad, the Adidas ad. There's two gorgeous. I don't even know what they are. Gorgeous. Very, very expensive looking sports cars. I don't. It's implied that they're his. I don't know if there are. Maybe they were rented. I'm just.

[A]

He can. He could probably afford them anyway.

[B]

He had 23 points in 32 minutes and he had had five threes. By the way, Jared Allen has had a couple of gigantic games on this road trip without Evan Mobley. And he went 11 of 12 in that game. Like everyone was focused on Donovan and, and Harden and rightly so. Like they were behind, and Donovan, like, carried him back. And then Harden put over the top. Donovan had 35 and everything like that, but Jared Allen went 11 of 12 from the field.

[C]

Well, listen, Jared Allen, I'm sure, was pretty happy about the trade for James Harden, because one thing that James will do is help your big man look a lot better.

[B]

Yeah. Can I just say, as a real quick aside here, I was watching the Clippers play the Wolves today, which we'll get to. Which we'll get to in a minute. And Kawhi Leonard was awesome in that game, Absolutely awesome. He had 41 points. And I'm sitting here thinking, like, all of these seasons that the Clippers had derailed because they didn't have a healthy Kawhi. Granted, like, you could never take him for granted. Like, I don't know what'll happen in two weeks or two months. All of these years that they had derailed because Kawhi wasn't right. He's never looked better. Yeah, he's never. His shot looks so pure. This is the best he's played since he was in Toronto.

[A]

Makes you feel like the whole transaction was cursed from the beginning. And this is just the coup de grace on the whole thing.

[C]

I mean, Kawhi, this might be the best he's played, period. This is. I mean, well, it's just a regular season. His career, it was a joke.

[A]

He was a name to the All Star team.

[C]

Yeah, it was a joke.

[B]

Well, he's now on it.

[A]

Now he's on it, but he should have been originally on it. Like, he had a far better season than LeBron and whatever the reason was that he wasn't voted for, like, he's had an unbelievable season. And again, like I said, if you look at totality at the Kawhi era with the Clippers, like you said, Brian, the fact that he's doing this now as the team's been dismantled around him and he's healthy and playing like this, it is a fitting end to the way this whole thing has played out from start to finish.

[B]

I mean, he was absolutely destroying the Wolves today. Destroying them.

[A]

He's destroying everybody. And we'll listen, we'll get to the Wolves. Let's circle back to this. Anyway, we've gotten a feel from the Cavs look in this game. First game. I'm obviously really interested to see how this Cavs Nuggets game goes Monday night. That's going to be really interesting test for this new look group. No Evan Mobley. So 1. One key piece missing and obviously The.

[B]

Yeah, well, the Nuggets.

[A]

Nuggets are missing. No, the Nuggets are missing for sure.

[C]

But.

[A]

You could see in this first game, like, James Harden is just flat out better right now, especially and probably for this season than Darius Garland. And, like, they're clearly going to be a better team with James Harden. Now, is that going to translate into the kind of run the playoffs they need?

[C]

We'll see. Does it move the needle?

[A]

Well, I mean, I think it moves the needle. I certainly enjoyed Darrell's line and like I said, I'm praying for those two teams to play in the first round. But. But, yeah, like, it was immediately apparent why it was the right move for the Cavs to make and why it was the right risk for them to take with what they have at stake this summer and try to get Donovan to extend and James going to get him shots and he can hold up better defensively than Darius. Not that he's great on defense. He certainly is not. But he's at least a big body who can bang on people. And even towards the end of that game the other night, he was guarding Demar some like, you know, it's clearly made them better and now we'll just have to wait and see how much better.

[C]

Yeah, it's made them better. It. And you know, listen, if Donovan is. Donovan's obviously happy with it, if he's happy enough to where he extends, then that's the. The whole purpose of this. I just think that's interesting because it makes them better now and next year. But, like, James is going to be in his late 30s and so you're extending to play with who?

[A]

Well, I don't want to put. I shouldn't put words in Kevin Pelton's mouth, but I will relay a conversation he and I had a couple weeks ago that I think is illustrative of why it might not have been a bad move. Where we were talking about possible Darius Garland trades different places. And he asked me, are we sure Darius Garland is not a toxic contract at this point? Because of the. It's not from a talent perspective, obviously, but for the. All of these toe and foot injuries he's had now, hopefully Darius Garland comes back. He's supposed to be back in the next couple weeks. Hopefully he can come back and can just play. But I was at the game in Philly when he got hurt last and he barely did anything. And then he's been out for a month. So, you know, that I think, is a real question, like, if he can't stay on the court then while he's a super talented player and the Cavs don't have a ton of draft assets, like the fact that they could just swap him out for James Harden, it might be as good as they were really going to have any chance of doing in a deal with him in the next couple of years if he can't stay healthy. And that's obviously something we, as we sit here right now on February 9, we can't say for sure what that's going to look like.

[B]

It's too bad about Avitzi Zubac hurting his ankle.

[A]

While our debate about whether the Pacers were going to go for one or ten the other day on the pod that immediately went away. When I saw Rick Carlisle say, yeah, you know, zoo's got this ankle, it's going to have to get it looked at. I was like, oh, oh, been lingering.

[C]

Been lingering for weeks.

[B]

He played 15 of the previous 16 games.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he had to go away because he became a father. Congrats to him and his wife. I will say this long.

[A]

Two months in the NBA, that's all.

[C]

Listen, I think I told you guys, I think the Pacers should be progressive and give Zubots the rest of the season all for paternity leave.

[B]

That would be amazing, like supportive of the family. FMLA I will say that when my son was born, you know, I was in the delivery room and you're in all the scrubs and they give you booties to put over your shoes. You know, you're in the operating room.

[A]

Where are we going? This story.

[B]

My son was born and they said you want to take him back to the hospital room? From the delivery room to the hospital, back to the room. So I'm carrying my newborn son, he's you know, 11 minutes old or whatever and these booties are slick as hell.

[C]

Oh no.

[B]

And I'm walking on the sleum floor and I'm walking like my, my late grandfather used to walk on ice. I'm walking, you know, six inches at a time and I'm thinking like what if, what if Zubac, like what if, you know, what if he went down? Like what if he slipped? What if he had the booties on and he slipped and suffered, you know, an ankle injury? Like it, it could have happened.

[C]

No, it's just he's been playing, you know, he's quite right. Want to make sure he's 100% before you reports to training camp next year.

[A]

Oh God, I didn't think that's where you go with that. Oh, my God. That almost killed me.

[B]

I was. But I was. I was genuinely fearful. It was like the. The. The most stressful moment of that day was that, like 30 yards I had to walk down the hall with the newborn and in those booties. I thought it was a really. I think it's a real hazard. I think they should take a serious look at it. And I'm not exactly nimble. Anyway. I keep getting distracted by the Clippers.

[C]

Bon tips. I gotta say, of all your theories, that was you. You have some good ones. The pace was trying to be. The pace was trying to be 10th was not a good theory.

[A]

I just thought it was an interesting thought exercise. And I, I asked some people about it, and I did get different answers on it, but the answer was given when Rick Carlisle declared that sue needs to rest his ankle.

[B]

Just not really for the record. I would say off the record, I did ask the Pacers about that concept. They said, hell no. No, dude, we're trying to get four through the top four.

[C]

We've got a lot of work into being this bad. We're not going to give up on it now that, you know, we're over halfway there.

[B]

Oh, sorry.

[A]

It's like I said, it's going to be a really, really, really long two months.

[C]

I mean, listen. And the league's got to figure something out. This is like Tank of Palooza's a problem.

[B]

Too late.

[A]

Well, for this.

[C]

I know. I would say.

[A]

I would say the plan. Plan that has been proposed by somebody we all know to the league to. To have wins count at some point in the season.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, imagine if this year wins counted the rest of the way.

[C]

Feel a lot better.

[A]

Well, if you had the Jazz trading for Jaren Jackson Jr. You had the Clippers training for our trading. You know, you had the Pacers getting Davit Zubac. You had the Wizards getting Anthony Davis. Like, you. You would have some of these teams, like, really being entertained. Like, the Jazz could have just won three games in a row and very creatively made sure they didn't win them. Like, they could really rip off a bunch of wins. Like, obviously, all these different things have some sort of, like, unintended consequence of it. But to me, I. The more I've thought about this, that is the solve that fixes the most problems for me.

[C]

I would agree.

[A]

The fewest where you have this final third of the season where teams are trying to get in the playoffs and all this stuff is going on, and we. We now have literally a third of the league punting games like, that's just not. That's. That that can't be the best path forward. And obviously this is a particularly good draft. But I don't know.

[C]

You mentioned the Wizards. Will Dawkins, their gm, talked to the media there and he indicated that they do plan on having AD in the fold at some point this season. But you'll remember the press release the Maverick sent out when Ad avoided surgery that said he will be healed in six weeks.

[B]

Yeah, it didn't say, like it was.

[C]

Very six to 10 weeks.

[B]

Yeah, well, he's like, no, it wasn't six weeks. It was 10 weeks.

[C]

Six to 10.

[B]

And by the way, they sent him back to Dallas. Thanks for coming to. Thanks for coming to D.C. we'll see in four, four to six weeks.

[C]

I mean, I appreciate you taking some pictures for our social media. Off you go.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, here's the thing, like, if you look at the standings, we're going to talk about the Hornets in a minute. The Hornets have 25 wins, okay? The teams behind them are the Bulls, the Bucks. So the hornets are in 10th. The teams behind them are the Bulls, the Bucks, the Nets, the Wizards and the Pacers. Now, I don't know about the Bucks because, because I don't know what the Bucks are doing because allegedly Giannis is.

[C]

Coming back and they signed Cam Thomas today, which I don't know that it helps them win, but it's a move designed to help them win.

[A]

Okay, More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Here's my question. Okay, The Hornets have 25 wins. The Bulls have 24. The Bucks have 21. That I'm not even going to get into. The Nets Wizards. And how many more wins do you think the Hornets actually need to stay in the plan.

[A]

To stay in the play in time?

[C]

No, not. No.

[B]

I don't think Five.

[A]

Well, listen, here's. Well, but here's the thing.

[B]

Real talk. Just real talk. What is the. We're going to do this? Well, Jackson, maybe you can remember this later on. The Hornets have 25 wins. What will the. How many wins will 10th place have?

[A]

I think at least how many wins.

[C]

Will 11th place have?

[A]

Is.

[B]

Okay. 11th place? Yeah.

[C]

The Bulls have 24 now.

[A]

Low, low to mid thirt.

[B]

Maybe.

[C]

I'll take a look.

[A]

Listen, listen, listen. They're. The Bulls, for example, are playing the Nets on Monday. Guess who's not playing for the nets? Michael Porter Jr. Like, there's a whole lot of games, right? These are bad teams playing each other.

[B]

You're right. That's a flaw in my theory.

[A]

Right? So, like, now the better question is how many teams are Going to get to. How many of these teams at the bottom are not going to get to 25 wins? There might be like seven. Honestly though, my head hurt.

[C]

We talk about the bad, we're talking about the bad teams too much.

[B]

I know. I'm sorry.

[C]

Yeah. But hey, the Hornets aren't a bad team anymore. That's fun.

[B]

That's correct. So they have a. So they have a good game on Monday.

[A]

First off, they've won nine in a row, which they hadn't won nine in a row in like 25 years. I think PS2 had come out the last time.

[B]

There's two. Only two guys on their roster who were alive the last time they had a winning streak this long.

[A]

Tim. I wasn't making it. Tim, I wasn't making a joke. I think litter. I saw a graphic of this. I'm going to look it up. Literally the last, literally the last time they won that many games in a row, it was like when the PS2.

[B]

Came out, it was 2000 and it was 3. But then they waived Pat Connaughton and that went down to two. So there's two guys on their, on their roster who have, who were only alive the last time they had won this many in a row.

[A]

Right. When they won eight. When they won.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was their longest winning streak in December of 1999, which by the way was the first iteration of the team before it got moved to New Orleans and an expansion team came back. That's how long ago.

[B]

Yeah, but who was on that? Is that Baron Davis? Like, is that a Baron Davis led team? I don't even know if he was there.

[A]

I believe that was a Baron Davis team. What year was it?

[B]

1999-9920-0099-2000.

[C]

Let's see.

[A]

Yeah, so it was a Baron Davis team. It was his rookie year. I mean, it's crazy that it had been that long. Crazy.

[B]

And so I. They're like. So they are really a. You know, so they're in 10th place right now. They're a half game back of Atlanta for ninth, who they just beat.

[A]

Don't we think they're going to make the playoffs?

[B]

Well, yeah, well, see what I'm saying. So with this starting lineup, there's something like 15 and 1. So they started the season 4 and 14. They had a bunch of injuries, obviously Brandon Miller was the biggest one, but they had a bunch of injuries.

[A]

Well, listen, real talk again to go back to real talk. Real talk was they were supposed to be bad one more year. Like the goal was to have this young corp get some minutes together, have Brandon Miller and LaMelo Ball and Conopel finally, you know, Khan's obviously a rookie. Have those guys play together, get some time on the court, get another high chance at a high pick and a loaded draft. And then next year, like, you know, like these other teams really take a step forward and then they had the best month 5 point differential ever and.

[B]

Right. And so my point is they're masquerading as a 10th place team. They're not really a 10th place team.

[C]

No, they're, they're. I think they're going to end up coming out of the play. And now, you know, LaMelo's previous two playing experiences did not go well. They got blown out in both. But this is a much better team. Look, and it's not like Lamelo's just going bonkers. Like, you know, he's shooting less than 40% from the floor during the streak. I think he's playing the most solid basketball of his career. But this is being driven by Brandon Miller and con canipple and honestly, Moussa Diabate's energy and like all the, all the stuff, the moose baby, all the stuff he's doing. Miles Bridges, who, you know, there's a lot. Before they got on the streak, I thought Miles Bridges was going to be traded. He's been playing well.

[B]

Well, I think at one point we would have said, when they were 4 and 14, we would have said, well, this team's, you know, they're, they're going to be a seller. They ended up as a buyer. And during the streak, they've got the fifth best defense in the league. Like, you look at them and they play super fast and they hoist and you say, okay, this one, this kind of team, they're defending right now.

[A]

Yeah, that, I mean that, that starting, that starting lineup is now up to 230 minutes. It's plus 30 per 100 possessions.

[C]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

And among all the lineups in the league, it's played what it's like in the top 10 in minutes played, five, six. It's like ninth overall in minutes played and it's plus 39th plus used lineup in the whole league. Plus 30, 500.

[B]

They are massive.

[A]

Not plus 30 on the season. Plus 30 per 100 possessions. They are now an offensive rating of 139.

[B]

And they're defending right now. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, a defensive rating of 109.

[B]

So something interesting though, did happen. So instead of being a seller at the deadline, they go to be a buyer and they Trade for Kobe White, who I think will fit in beautifully there because the style of play that they play is how he wants to play.

[A]

Yeah, perfect third guard to play with them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he's from there too.

[B]

Yes, he's from. He's not from. He's from North Carolina.

[A]

He's from Carolina. Went to Carolina.

[B]

How about, by the way, how about that shot Carolina hit on Duke? I don't follow college basketball, but holy Moses, what a shot.

[A]

It's pretty good.

[B]

And I will say this, like, when you see the, the one of the things I noticed and I, and I apologize, I'm ignorant to. Maybe this is something that people in Carolina will be like. Yes, you dope. This is of course the way it is. The entire arena is all Carolina fans. Like, there was no Duke section. Like there's like when you, when you see that shot because there's a couple of great replays where you can see the entire Dean Dome. There is, there is no Duke blue in that building. Every single person is wearing Carolina blue. It was, it was a great shot. Anyway, so here's what happened with Kobe White. So they traded for Kobe White and from what I am told, they did the deal on Tuesday and one of the reasons they did the deal on Tuesday was because after last year when they had the Mark Williams deal with the Lakers undone after the deadline, if you remember, deadline was already over.

[A]

So they couldn't amend it.

[B]

They couldn't amend it. They couldn't like, you know, toss in an extra second round pick. You know, they wanted that first round pick and that pick swap from the Lakers. They ended up trading Mark Williams for. I guess they got two firsts for him, but one of them was like, like a late pick.

[A]

It was the 29th pick in this year's draft was Lee McNeely.

[B]

Liam McNeely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anyway, this year they did the, the. They purposely did the deal like to allow for time to get the physical done. They do the physical and they discover that Kobe White has a calf injury and he had a calf injury earlier this year. But to the other leg, this was a new calf injury that I don't know. He. I don't think he's given an interview at. Maybe his calf was a little sore, but they identified that he's got a calf injury and they call the Bulls and they go, listen, man, like is this issue. And so the Bulls give. Agree to amend the deal and they give back a second round pick.

[A]

And Kobe's going to miss a while now with this injury too.

[B]

Yeah, and so I was talking to this scout and he says to me, this is talk about irony. You got all these teams that are trading for guys who they don't want to play. Like Jaren Jackson junior's first game, he scored 25 points or 23 points in 25 minutes for the Jazz bench for the fourth quarter. By the way, Markkanen that night scored 27 points, 27 minutes. Guess who was sitting next to Jaren Jackson for the whole.

[C]

Well, they wanted to give them time to get to know each other. They go down on the end of the bench and chit chat.

[B]

Beautiful team. Also, the as they were blowing like I think it was a 15 or 17 point lead. They blew through an entire 17 point lead on the road and Will Hardy did not call a timeout. So Jared Jackson, you know, they're going to do some load management stuff. Zubotch, they said, get that ankle, put that ankle up. Anthony Davis has been sent back to Dallas.

[C]

I mean, Trey Young is working on his retro jersey collection.

[B]

Right. All this is happening. Meanwhile, the team that actually was like, we're buying, we're on a run. We want this guy. They discover an injury they didn't know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like some of these teams are like, damn, how come you guys didn't discover an injury? We didn't know, but we could have gotten some a draft pick and we could have had something to put on the injury report. But anyway, yeah, so hopefully Kobe, you know, is going to be all right and that he'll add to the team. But I'll tell you, Bontemps, the Pistons on Friday. Absolutely. Now, the Knicks were missing two starters or Carl Towns didn't talk about the.

[A]

Guys the Knicks are missing. Don't talk about the guys the Knicks are missing. All right, let me just read you Jalen Brunson's stat line in this game against the Pistons on Friday night. 12 points, minus 24 in 31 minutes. And it gets worse from there. 4 for 20 from the field, 0 for 8 from 3. That, my friends, is a very atypical Jalen Brunson line. And while I have concerns about Assar Thompson in his offensive game and whether he could be a true building block for a team because of his offensive game. His defense is legit and his defense against Jalen Brunson was legit. And you saw Jalen Brunson on Sunday on our air against the Celtics. Another good defensive team. Get right back to looking like Jalen Brunson and he was awesome. And the Knicks had a great win. And yes, they didn't have Carl Towns and yes, they didn't have Ogn and Obi, but I don't think that would have done a lot of difference in that specific game with the star Thompson.

[B]

I think the Pistons have outscored the Knicks by 60 points in the, in their games this year.

[C]

Yeah, the Pistons were also coming off a pretty embarrassing performance the previous night, I believe. Right. When they let the Wizards beat them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So the Wizards were very upset about that.

[C]

Yeah, seriously. But I mean who would have thought Pistons Hornets would be like a circlet on the counter?

[A]

It's a big, it's really, it's a big game. I mean, listen, at this point it.

[C]

Might be a first round preview.

[A]

Listen, here's the crazy thing. The Hornets right now are five and a half games out of sixth. Like it's not inconceivable the way they're playing that they get out of the play.

[B]

Of course not. Their record is 25 and 28. But that's not who they are.

[A]

No, I mean, you know, you always.

[B]

Say was it parcels? You are what your record says you are. That's true almost all the time. In this case it's not true.

[A]

Yeah, it's, I mean it's unbelievable how well they're playing and how impressive they've been. And I do think Kobe will hope a lot and yeah, it easily could be a first round playoff series and.

[B]

It'S only if the Pistons fall back because I don't think the Hornets are going to be eighth. I think they're going to be higher.

[A]

They might be, but it's going to be super fun to watch. And it's, you know, this Pistons season has been awesome. I continue to be a little skeptical about them in the playoffs because their lack of additional scoring outside of cade. Some of this other stuff that I'm curious about when they get in the playoffs if they can get squared up on by another team. But you know, like you said, Brian, these two games against the Knicks have absolutely curb stomped them and they've, they've played Boston well and they've obviously had an incredible season and you know, maybe they are just going to be the team that bucks the trends of, you know, age and experience in the playoffs.

[B]

You guys know the last time the Hornets made the playoffs and the last.

[A]

Time they made the playoffs, I know they lost to the heat in 2016.

[B]

Just so you know, it was before the existence of the play in.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they lost that seven game series to the Heat. Is that the last time that's correct.

[C]

2016.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Wow. Not quite Sacramento level, but I did.

[B]

A piece on the tanking situation in the league that is on ESPN.com Monday. And by the way, I don't, I don't read comments. I, I leave Jackson to do that. I, I literally have not looked at a Twitter mention or X mention this decade. I'm not even kidding. So I don't see. But people got to me. Like people found my email and, and, and text me trying to suggest. What are you doing?

[A]

I was, I was just making fun of your hand motions, that's all.

[B]

Oh, sorry.

[A]

It's all good.

[B]

People got to me to suggest names for my. The flip concept which I wrote about on Monday.

[C]

Do you have some?

[B]

You like like seven, you know, and again I. There's probably a lot more, but six or seven people got to me. Six, seven. And like three or four of them said slingshot.

[C]

I like slingshot.

[B]

Slingshot.

[A]

The problem with the slingshot is that it's got to be like down and up. And these teams are just.

[B]

The idea is you should go back and then you pull it back and then you go. I understand.

[A]

But they've been pulled back for years. That's the only part of it that I like.

[B]

Pull back for years. Like the front row to Laker game.

[C]

I want to show Bon Temps exactly how a slingshot works. What'd you say?

[A]

It's a stand up copy.

[B]

Today I was very late night on the East Coast. Well, I think I told you guys, we know the Gram. The Gram, the hotel that, that McMahon's in right now. I was just there for 12 straight nights. The Grammys last Sunday night. There was quite a show on display in that lobby. And just say plastic surgeons are going to Hawaii. So. So slingshot was one of them. Several people said Slingshot Boomerang. Which I didn't like because that implies you're in the same spot. You know, they're not really in the same spot. There was a few others. So I appreciate people reaching out to me. Having said that, I wrote this story and I called it the Flip. I've branded it the Flip. It could be, you know, it could be. I could have a better nickname. But I've committed to the Flip now. I've committed to it.

[C]

You're all in, huh?

[B]

I'm all in on the Flip. Anyway, so the Knicks totally get embarrassed on Friday in Detroit. I think Jay was. It was Jalen Brunson, one of his worst shooting games as a Knick, if not the worst. And by the way, Asar Thompson was all over that cinema scenario. I think he only had like four points in the game, but he was like, best, most important player on the floor. So then the Knicks go to Boston on Sunday. Carl Towns comes back. OG Anunoby was still out and they were awesome in this game. And it was a game that had some stakes. You know, the Celtics were a game ahead of them for second and they were 11 in the season series. And the Knicks are, as you know, are a below.500 road team. And so not only does that matter later on, but like you're going into Boston and so, you know, you win that game, you put yourself in really much better position for winning the tiebreaker, considering the last game is the last week of the season in New York and Boston had been playing pretty well and the Knicks looked great. And there was this. There was this moment in the first half, so no OG Anunoby. So the pressure is on Mikhail Bridges. He was going to get heavy, you know, assignment on Jalen Brown. And at one point in the first half, Jalen tries to back Bridges down. Bridges challenges him and. And stops him and forces him to take a turnaround. He still could. It was still a decent shot, but he missed the. He missed it. They go down to the other end and Bridges post Jalen Brown up. And the only thing I can think of is I'm watching this. I'm thinking, you know, some people heard about Jalen Brown announcing himself as the best two way player, which is a fair. Like he's. I don't think he's outrageous there. He's got a. He's got a reasonable case. He's got a case. So Bridges is calling for the ball. Jalen, get me the freaking ball. So Jalen gives it to him. He looks over his shoulder, turns around, knocks down this like 12 footer with right in Jalen's eye and points at him. Points right at him, you know, like, all right, Mr. Two Way. And I mean, that was the way the Knicks approached this entire game. They looked awesome defensively, were great. Boston didn't crack 100 and bontemps. I'm just thinking to myself, it just underscores, I have no idea what's going to happen in the Eastern Conference.

[A]

Yeah. But saying all season that I begin to ask since October, who's going to win the East? And I just keep saying I have absolutely no idea. And you know, like today's game, The Celtics shot 7 for 41 from 3.

[B]

Yeah, it's not going to get done.

[A]

About 18 of them were wide open and they just whiffed them. But the Knicks played very well. Jalen was back to normal. And yeah, like, these playoffs, like, you could make a case for Detroit, you could make a case for Boston, especially if Jason Tatum comes back, which I'm still thinking he will at some point, though it's not certain. You could certainly make a case for the Knicks. You can make a case for Cavs corner if Philly is healthy. I think from a ceiling perspective, you could make a case for them. That's already five teams. Charlotte Hornets, Hornets. Plus 30 per 100. Sure, why not?

[B]

We've. We've branded them on NBA Today. We've branded them the Buzz City Killers.

[A]

Okay, I like. I like that. That's a good one. But that, like, it's. It is. It is remarkable. Like, I. I can't remember a conference that was actually this wide open.

[B]

Well, it's one thing. It's one. And I. We're insulting. I feel like the Pistons fans are like, why are you insulting us? But it's one thing. If you're like, okay, well, these are the favorites and these are the contenders. I can't differentiate them at all.

[A]

Look, in Detroit, the reason that the Pistons can't be put up above everybody yet is because basically, it's basically unprecedented to go from never winning anything in the playoffs to winning three series in a year. Like, for all the key guys on. On this. On this Pistons team, you know, Cade Cunningham, Asar Thompson, Jalen Duran, Isaiah Stewart, like, really, other than Tobias Harris and now, I guess, Kevin Herder and Duncan Robinson, like, all, like, veteran role players who've had runs to the second round or in Herder's case, went to the conference finals. Obviously, Duncan's been to the finals. They're. They're young, key players, have one playoff series under their belt that they lost in six games. And I think they didn't win a home game in it. So, like, that. It's hard to go from that to then speed up all the way to win three rounds in a row. Now I think I'm working on a piece with Vinnie for Wednesday on how wide open the east is, so he gets credit for this.

[B]

I call him Vince Goodwill on this podcast.

[A]

Vince. Okay.

[B]

We've known him as Vinnie for, like, 20 years, but he goes by Vince now. He.

[A]

I believe he had the Penny Shaq Magic as, like, the only comparable team in terms of, like, jetting up the standings. I don't know what they did the year before, but like, that, it. It's you can count on one hand.

[B]

Talk about the ultimate flip. The Celtics in 2007 eight like that.

[A]

That's your but that no no, no.

[C]

That's a little different when you're bringing.

[A]

In that's getting three veteran that's I mean I understand in their prime star players. It's not a home. It's not a bunch of kids who have never been deep in the playoffs before.

[C]

I mean it's the same argument against the spurs in the west. But the spurs don't have any taste with this group of playoff experience.

[A]

Right.

[B]

By the way, how about Steph Castle.

[C]

On 40, something point triple double.

[A]

Well and if you go back, if you go back two years ago like a good analog I think for this this Pistons team in a lot of ways is the 2324 Thunder who went from sort of the same position the Pistons were in last year breakfast to basically the same position the Pistons were in this year. They won 56 games. They run I think a three way tie for first in the west to go into that series with Dallas who had some more experience and easily could have won that series was a really tight six game series but the Mavericks won it. And like if you tell me that the Pistons have a really hard fought second round series against Boston or New York or Cleveland or one of these teams and they lose like that, I don't think that would be seen, that shouldn't be seen as some massive disappointment given where they are in their life cycle. But you know this is just an unprecedented situation all the way around the.

[B]

Yeah, I would, I would. I don't know where now if Jackson has the odds, does he have to put the odds up? Oh, Jackson has Magic lost the first round 30 and 9394 to the Pacers and they won 57. Then they won 50 and they won the finals 50 then 57 and made the finals and they got swept and then Shaq said I'm out sad. Okay, so we'll keep an eye on the Eastern Conference.

[A]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[D]

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[B]

Circle back around to where we started. We mentioned the wolves so The Wolves have had a very up and down season. They've had stretches where they've looked like they've really got a challenge. They've had other stretches where they've looked great. Beaten Oklahoma City a few times. Then Friday night they played the Pelicans at home and the Pelicans were down that by 18 points, I think. And the other thing that happened is like, not secretly, the Timberwolves tried to trade for Giannis 10 Akumpo.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And while it didn't leak who their offer was or there was some. Some of it, but, you know, the players understand that it's not going to.

[C]

Be ant well, and it's going to be several of them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They have no draft picks. They have no draft picks. So it had to be most of their good players that gave it have a chance to get a deal done.

[B]

Well, other players might have been offered for draft picks as well.

[C]

And this is the second straight year this has happened. Last year was for Kevin Durant, so.

[B]

Right. So, you know, actions over words. Like, you know, whatever Tim Connolly might say about his faith in the team and like, you know, I don't blame him for trying to get Giannis like Giannis and ant would be. I mean, like, I'm not even. I'm just saying, like, you know, so.

[C]

It'S something that the players know is happening and is hard to just block out. Like, it's. Be a pro. Okay. Like, easy to say. Hard to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So Friday night they give up a big lead and lose to the Pelicans. Zion was very good in that game. And Rudy Gobert after the game, peppers the hillside. Did what?

[A]

Rudy does. Rudy. Rudy does.

[B]

Rudy.

[A]

Rudy is known to have moments in the media like this after bad losses.

[B]

He. So he said. Well, he used to say this about Donovan Mitchell. Right. Didn't he, McMahon.

[C]

Yeah. This is very similar to stuff that was a factor in the friction between Donovan and Rudy, for sure.

[B]

He basically said, you know, I don't have the quotes right in front of me, but I'm.

[A]

I'm looking.

[C]

I'm going to. Okay, I'm going to give you the quotes. Hold on.

[B]

Go ahead.

[C]

Pulling up right here. At some point, if the players don't have accountability, someone has to have accountability for the players.

[B]

That's a shot is head coach. We agree on that.

[C]

I'm talking straight effort. I'm just talking straight effort. I'm not even getting to the basketball side of things, like mistakes are part of the game, but the effort, for me, the effort to Me, for a team that wants to play for a championship, it's unacceptable. And then he said it's not an easy position for a coach to take guys out of the game without directly naming any players. It's not something that you want to do, but I think if the players don't show any effort at some point, no matter how talented we are as a team, if you don't have that, you just can't be a winning team.

[B]

So. So.

[C]

All right, so he took a shot. He's calling out Finch for not benching Ant and Randall. If you want to read between the.

[B]

Lines, he didn't say Ant and Randall, but let's just say the writers, John Krasinski from the Athletic and Chris Hine from the. From the Star Tribune and Danemore covers the team. They all believe that it was Ant and Randall. And if you watch the game, it's.

[A]

Not hard to figure out what he's talking about.

[B]

If you watch the game, I would not say that Ant and Randall were leading the league in defensive activity.

[A]

No.

[B]

Having said that, there was multiple times where Zion ate Gobert alive. Now, that's not the greatest matchup for rudy, but he's Mr. Hall of Fame defensive player. By the way, when we ran these comments today on on Countdown, because they were on national. They were on ESPN today, Michael Malone said, well, nobody cares about what Rudy Gobert thinks anyway. I knew he was going to say it. Malika didn't know. So, like, I had my popcorn over there when that came up, and Malika, I guess, didn't hear him say it beforehand, and he actually said it. Malika's head snapped around. I mean, she. She was like, what?

[C]

Um, that's a little. Little harsh.

[B]

So then Chris Finch comes out on Saturday and says, I addressed it, and you don't substitute your way to meaningful accomplishment.

[C]

I handle all my conversations with ourselves in house. Disappointing. He felt the need to go outside. Nonetheless, that's been addressed already today. There's never been a team that's won anything meaningful that substituted their way there.

[B]

So what? That's what he's saying. There is. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm not taking Aunt Edwards. I'm not, you know, we're not fixing this by me taking Aunt Edwards out when he misses an assignment.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That's my job anyway, bro.

[C]

And, like, I think Rudy means well, but he just really has a clumsy way of pissing off everybody around him at times. And again, he did it in Utah. He's done it Minnesota. This is a Case where, and you know, the other thing, like, honestly in this look, the, the go ahead. And one was Zion finishing over Rudy. And so this is, this is a case where it's like Rudy's pointing fingers and there's no thumb.

[A]

You know, let's, let's, let's move past the Rudy comments though, because I think that, I think it sort of subtracts from what the real issue is, which is this team has just wildly underperformed for most of the season. They have repeatedly had just absolutely horrific losses. Like that loss of the Pelicans was terrible. They got obliterated on New Year's Eve by the Hawks. They lost to the Nets. They lost to the Bulls. They lost to the Jazz.

[C]

They had blown out on their home court.

[A]

They got blown out today by the Clippers with half their team. They lost, they lost that game where they were up seven points with 45 seconds to go in Phoenix and imploded and lost that game like they've just had, they've had six or seven or eight just catastrophic losses this season. And even if they had four of those games back, you're talking about a team that is pushing for second or third in the west and instead they're sixth.

[B]

But like in a classic case, they go into Toronto last week and they, before this New Orleans game, they go into Toronto and they win. And they hadn't won in Toronto since like 2000. And Ant says we ain't won here since Bruce Lee died, which is this, this man is a treasure. I, I, he actually, he also had a dunk today that was among the two or three best of the season.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

I mean, this guy's a treasure. Having said that, I would not say that their team, you know, you think you have that horrible loss and the Clippers are coming in, you know, you think, you know, I was, I was expecting them to have a big bounce.

[C]

Back, but this is who the Wolves are. The Wolves are a high ceiling erratic team. Last year at the end of February, they were only three games above.500. They got it rolling in the last month and a half the regular season ended up going to the conference finals. They got it together. Last year was not a smooth year whatsoever for them, you know, and look like there's their trip to Toronto last year where Gobert and Randall basically got into it on the floor and you know, when Rudy had the three seconds because Randall would continue. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and you know, and they were, you know, and then Rudy had another bad moment where he was still, I forgot exactly what happened. But yet, like he carried over the defense possession. Anyways, my point is like we shouldn't be surprised that the Wolves have funks or that the Wolves have duds. This is, this is the team that they are. They did. They have a very high ceiling and they managed to get it together at the right time last year. We'll see if that happens now. But you know, right now they're, you know, they're, they look like a first round exit.

[A]

Well, I'll remind everybody they use. I'll remind everybody to use Mike Conley's salary and a pick swap that could be eight to 10 spots in the draft to save a lot of money and they could have got better.

[B]

Well, they went out and got IO.

[A]

After they used Mike Conley's money and a pretty decent pick swap to save a lot of money. Well, they could have used that contract to get another player with IO don't think this could be another good player.

[C]

The Wolves are going to be pinching pennies.

[A]

That's just the fact. I mean, they are pinching pennies. That was a wild move.

[C]

They're doing it on the, they've done it on the business side. They're. They, you know, this is a, an obvious cost cutting thing that you're talking about there.

[A]

But.

[C]

Yeah, I don't know, man.

[B]

Well, those two, these two games, the Pelicans and Clippers were the first two games of a six game homestand. This is supposed to be a time where they're pivoting, not like worried about dropping into the plan.

[A]

It's a big couple months for the Wolves.

[B]

Wolves.

[A]

That's what I would say. It's a big couple months for the Wolves.

[B]

Well, you know, but look, I'm just playing the Hawks on Monday night.

[C]

I'm looking at their schedule last year, you know, mid to late November. So they lose six out of eight games to end February last year, including a loss to the Jazz on the last day of the month. Their two wins during that stretch were over the Thunder. That's kind of the epitome of the Wolves. Like they can play with anybody when they're right and then they can just go in these funks and lose to anybody. And you know, it's, it's a hard way to go about it.

[A]

Well, it's not a long term sustainable way to go about it is what it is. It's just not so. And honestly, I think it's a big couple months for the Wolves to show what kind of team they are.

[C]

And Ant. Ant Has a reputation for being an elite two way player and obviously he is a superstar. He's one of the best offensive players in the league. He has the reputation because he is capable of being a dominant defender. He does not choose to be that often these days.

[B]

He's, he's, he can super duper lockdown. He is built to be amazing on defense because he's got super long arms, incredible quickness and when he wants to, like he, you know, one of the things that's hard to do on defense is to get low. He gets low so well, it's very.

[C]

Hard to do that and it's strong as hell. Now, I will say that Ant is carrying a massive burden offensively and has to handle. He's their point guard. He has to handle more ball handling than ever. So, you know, 82 games a year. It's hard to ask Guy to carry that kind of burden offensively.

[B]

There was some possessions in this game today where they were just complete wet noodle. Offensively, I mean, they're, you know, I don't, I don't like the word, I don't like the word engaged. I don't like fans and sometimes media like watch players and they go, oh, that player is not engaged.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think, you know, it's, you're. Now you're reading into what's going on in their head. But if you elected to say that word about today's game, I would have had a hard time debating that. So.

[A]

Particularly troublesome coming off the last couple days. Yeah, they look disconnected.

[B]

They play the Hawks on Monday, so. All right, is that. I think, I think we covered everything.

[C]

We did.

[B]

Okay. Thank you for staying up late. Thank you to Jackson and Devon for putting it together. Thank you to McMahon and Bontemps. We're talking to you later this week.

[C]

Adios, amigos.

[B]

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Full episodes over on YouTube.