Eastern Conference Tiers Preview

Summary

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Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective: "Eastern Conference Tiers Preview"

Date: October 13, 2025
Host(s): Brian Windhorst, Tim Bontemps, Tim McMahon (ESPN NBA Insiders)

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Brian Windhorst, Tim Bontemps, and Tim McMahon break down the Eastern Conference ahead of the NBA season by sorting all teams into competitive "tiers." They debate the 2025-26 outlook for each franchise, discussing recent preseason action, major injuries, depth, and the big unknowns—often veering into passionate arguments about tier placement. The conversation also includes bold predictions (including a surprise All-NBA pick), injury updates, and behind-the-scenes banter about the business of NBA podcasting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Preseason and NBA Excitement

• Preseason standouts and narratives:

  • Windhorst shares rare excitement for a preseason Clippers vs. Nuggets game, noting both teams' sharpness ("I got energized for the season just based on that first half" - Windhorst, 04:00).
  • Kawhi Leonard looks "terrific," and Ivica Zubac earns a Windhorst All-NBA prediction after a dominant stretch ("Zubots looks awesome. We got..." - Windhorst, 04:50).

• Player concerns:

  • Worries around Klay Thompson and D’Angelo Russell’s defensive viability as a backcourt (McMahon, 06:07).
  • Positive notes on Aaron Gordon and Cam Johnson for the Nuggets; comments on volume three-point shooting.

2. The Joel Embiid & Sixers Update (08:38–11:07)

• Embiid unexpectedly participates in open scrimmage, offering cautious optimism for Philly fans about his health.
• Bontemps: "If the team is just solid and wins 40 some games and Joel plays 55 or 60 games, that's going to be a success for a lot of people."
• Discussion of Sixers’ lowered expectations after a turbulent past season.

3. Previews & Injury Updates (13:14–16:01)

• Jalen Williams (Thunder) is likely to miss the start of the season but expects to meet the 65-game minimum for award eligibility.
• Discussion about how teams handle early injuries and preseason performances.

4. Defining the Tiers: Eastern Conference Sorting

Tier 1: True Contenders (20:04–27:14)

• All hosts agree:

  • New York Knicks
  • Cleveland Cavaliers

• Exclusion of the Celtics due to Jason Tatum's long Achilles rehab, and heavy roster turnover:

  • "You can't reasonably expect Jason Tatum to come back in All-NBA form this season." (McMahon, 20:39)
  • "Even if he does...they still lost [several key players] and replaced none of them." (Bontemps, 21:01)

• Knicks: The next move, like a potential Mikal Bridges acquisition, could tip the balance, but expectations are high.

• Cavs: Health is key, with special concern about Max Strus (Jones fracture), DeAndre Hunter’s knees, and Dean Wade. But a foundation of Mobley and Mitchell puts them atop the conference.

Tier 2: Young Teams on the Rise (27:52–35:06)

• Consensus:

  • Orlando Magic
  • Atlanta Hawks
  • Detroit Pistons (after debate; Windhorst includes, Bontemps is hesitant)

• Orlando’s outlook hinges on Jalen Suggs’ health.

• Atlanta features a deep, veteran-supported roster and key "ascendant" talent in Jalen Johnson.

• Detroit’s rise will depend on continued ascension from Cade Cunningham, Jalen Duren, and Asar Thompson.

Tier 3: Large Bubble—Potential Playoff Teams, High Variability (35:18–46:02)

• Teams whose success is highly dependent on health and development:

  • Milwaukee Bucks: Giannis MVP-level necessity, unsure point guard rotation, thinner supporting cast.
  • Miami Heat: Added Norm Powell and expect Bam Adebayo bounce-back; Tyler Herro’s injury is a concern.
  • Boston Celtics & Indiana Pacers: Seen as "gap year boys"; Boston is banking on internal improvement, Indiana lost key stars and is heavily dependent on emergent young talent.
  • Philadelphia 76ers: Ceiling depends on Embiid and Paul George staying healthy.

• Much debate over Toronto’s placement, with Bontemps much higher on the Raptors than his co-hosts.

• Bontemps: "If you just are able to field a full roster every night, you're going to pick up a bunch of wins." (54:17)

Tier 4: Play-In/On the Bubble (46:25–54:07)

• Chicago Bulls: Centerpiece of this tier, expected to range between 39–40 wins again.
• Toronto Raptors: Bontemps argues for their top-6 potential, hosts remain skeptical. Their deep but unstarred roster sees them competing directly with the Bulls.

Tier 5: Tanking or Rebuilding (55:44–62:19)

• Brooklyn Nets: Ownership and coach all but openly admit to a tank/rebuild; playing numerous first-round picks. ("So you can predict what kind of strategy we will use for this season." — Nets owner Joe Tsai, 56:13)
• Washington Wizards
• Charlotte Hornets: Difference is “cornerstone potential” with their recent high draft picks.
• LaMelo Ball's future as a franchise face is again in question:
  • "I just don't think [he] can be the face of a winning franchise... shot selection is atrocious...defensively he doesn't care." (McMahon, 61:04)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Windhorst’s Zubac All-NBA Take (04:42):
  "Zubots looks awesome. We got...If it's a Zubot, let him cook, big man...Zubots will be a top three center in the NBA."

  • (Later challenged: "If Zubots is not All-NBA, Windy has to take a coach flight to LA." – McMahon, 65:34)

• Bontemps on Sixers’ new reality (08:38):
  "If the team is just solid and wins 40-some games and Joel plays 55 or 60 games, that's going to be a success for a lot of people..."

• McMahon’s take on Hornets & LaMelo Ball (61:04):
  "He is a mega talent who I just don't think can be the face of a winning franchise. That's not considered a controversial opinion within the league... the shot selection is atrocious, defensively he doesn't care."

• On the Bulls’ perpetual mediocrity (53:10):
  "The 25-26 Bulls: Fighting for 10th."

• On the Raptors’ roster and ceiling (54:12, Bontemps):
  "We got a lot of okay players."

• On the Nets’ Rebuild (56:15, Owner Joe Tsai):
  "We have 1 pick in 2026 and we hope to get a good pick. So you can predict what kind of strategy we will use this season."

• Bontemps on the volatility and upside of Tier 3 (45:09):
  "If Joel Embiid is healthy and Paul George is healthy. They're better than the Raptors. But if those guys are hurt, especially Joel Embiid because the Sixers have no size, then...they're going to really struggle."

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:47 — LA preseason, Clippers-Nuggets, early excitement
• 08:38 — Joel Embiid/Sixers scrimmage & outlook
• 13:14 — Jalen Williams injury, award eligibility rules
• 20:04 — Beginning of Eastern Conference tiers discussion, Tier 1 debate
• 27:52 — Young "ascent" teams, arguments for Magic/Hawks/Pistons
• 35:18 — Bubble teams and expanded Tier 3, deep dives on Bucks, Heat, Celtics
• 46:25 — Play-in contenders, Chicago’s mediocrity, Toronto debate
• 55:44 — Tanking discussion: Nets, Hornets, Wizards
• 61:04 — Hornets’ player development problems, LaMelo Ball deep dive
• 65:34 — Lighthearted Zubac prediction bet, episode close

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Tone and Highlights

The episode is characteristically conversational, with playful arguing about rankings, running jokes about “tiers,” plus strong ESPN NBA reporting.
The hosts’ willingness to challenge each other brings out frank takes on injury risks, roster flaws, and potential breakout candidates.
Windhorst earns the episode’s most viral clip with his impulsive Zubac All-NBA take, and Bontemps stands his ground on the Raptors’ mid-tier potential despite heavy skepticism from his co-hosts.

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Conclusion & What’s Next

The Eastern Conference is as uncertain as ever: two clear favorites (Knicks, Cavs), a handful of dynamic young teams, and a huge middle class with as many questions as answers.
The episode teases a Western Conference tiers preview coming up next, with more bets, wild predictions, and regional banter sure to follow.

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Transcript

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim McMahon]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim McMahon]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com Spotify spelled B-A-B-B B E L.com Spotify rules and restrictions may app hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA which we are doing on Sunday evening. Joining me from Dallas. Why would I start with him? I don't know. No explanation. Joining me from New York City, there's apparently a nor', easter, which I didn't know you got those in October's Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's true. All, all Disney employees were told that unless they need to go to work to stay home tomorrow because there's going to be public transit issues. There's some rain up here in the northeast and wind. So yeah, that's the, that's the weather update from New York City.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you. The weather is what we do best. Joining us from Dallas, Texas before he's out coming to Vegas for the big Mavericks Lakers preseason game. There's actually a Lakers preseason game going on across the street from me right here in la and I elected to start the pod instead of watch the end of it. Is band McMahon.

[Tim McMahon]

Howdy partners. I think you made a good decision there. Listen, college football update. North Texas no longer undefeated did have a sellout though. First time in that stadium and the program 63 points. I believe South Florida is an awfully good team on the rise and hook them. Oh, the Horns put it on those little boomer Sooners.

[Tim Bontemps]

I gotta say it is unbelievable on this podcast how the two co hosts on podcast just disregard their alma maters to root for other teams. At least, at least you're paying. At least you're paying the other guy.

[Tim McMahon]

There's no disregard. I started off with North Texas.

[Brian Windhorst]

Kent State beaten UMass over the weekend, buddy.

[Tim Bontemps]

In case you look, listen, we talk about two wins for Kent State.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hasn't that's a decade's worth.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm kidding.

[Brian Windhorst]

Speaking of Los Angeles preseason basketball tonight, Sunday night and I know there was an ALCS game going on and a very big Sunday night football game going on. McMahon was watching Mahomes because he needed to stay alive in his Guillotine League.

[Tim McMahon]

I did.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Clippers played the Nuggets in a preseason game. And in the first half of that game, I wouldn't say it was Game 8, but let's put it this way, they played it like it was game one of the season. Bradley Beal was out, but everybody else played. And I got to tell you, both those teams look really good. And I loved watching the first half of that game. It's. I, like, got energized for the season just based on that first half because they. They played.

[Tim McMahon]

When he's ready to roll.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know. You know, I don't. I just don't care about the preseason at all. You know, everybody I run into here, I'm out in LA for the first time of the season, and I'm seeing all the people that I go, I'm going to see for the next six or seven months, and they're all like, are you excited for the season? And I'm like, yeah. I mean, like, because I just. Because I know how long the season is and I know that, like, you. You know things that you. That you get excited about in October.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's not excited for the regular season, but he is excited for a preseason game. He is excited for that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I'm saying, like, I'm not ex. I was, you know, just fine. I was. I was indifferent. I was not excited nor. Nor unexcited. But this game got me. I. I got woken up by watching the first half of this game. And let me just say, first off, Kawhi had 17.

[Tim McMahon]

That's a windy sleep update, by the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

It is. It is a windy sleep update. Now we're going to read first half box course of a preseason game.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, I don't think it's anything about the box. Kawhi looks okay. Terrific. And he couldn't hit a three in this game. Last game he had a bunch of threes. Kawhi looks terrific. I'm tell you something else, okay? If it's a Zubot, let him cook, big man.

[Tim Bontemps]

Just let him go.

[Brian Windhorst]

If it's a Zubot's gonna make all NBA. It's.

[Tim McMahon]

Hold on, Wendy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

Wow. No, no, no. Listen, stop, stop. We got predictions.

[Tim McMahon]

Prediction by Wendy. He's really.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's what I'm saying.

[Brian Windhorst]

Zubots.

[Tim McMahon]

I. I love Zubots. It is. It is a positionless ballot. I think he's. You might be going a little strong here, buddy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Zubots looks awesome. We got.

[Tim Bontemps]

We got.

[Tim McMahon]

Zubots will be a top three center in the NBA. I'd say that's bold. But, you know, okay, we could chit chat about it.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm telling you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Listen, just let it. Just listen. The guy never makes predictions. He's getting fired up about half of a preseason game and making declarations. Let him go. Just let him go.

[Brian Windhorst]

And how many preseason games have I seen? Trust me, I had to sit through. I had to sit through Cav Celtics.

[Tim McMahon]

Listen, I had to watch the Hornets twice this week in person. Don't cry to me.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not crying. I'm just telling you what.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's not crying. He's pumping his fist.

[Tim McMahon]

Zubots Lamello ball took a catch and shoot fade away three early in the shot clock.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, sounds like a regular season game.

[Tim McMahon]

I watched him play twice. So basically two halves and a little bit into the third quarter, I think I exclaimed five or six times. This is bleeping ridiculous. After he threw up some ridiculous. There was one point where Charles Lee, I don't know exactly what he said to him, but it appeared to be something along the lines of like, come on, dude, like, we can't be throwing that shot up. Like, let's try to take this.

[Brian Windhorst]

I saw him try to defend Cooper Flag a couple times.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah. Oh, I saw Cooper flag's eyes lit up pretty good when he got on. I'll say this though. I saw Klay Thompson try to defend Lamella ball. He. He got that assignment and that didn't go very well either. Now I have some concerns about this stage of his career. Klay Thompson and d' Angelo Russell as a backcourt, a starting backcourt on the defensive end. What the hell is Bontemps doing?

[Brian Windhorst]

He's having a meltdown.

[Tim McMahon]

I tell you what, I do enjoy the temporary moments of silence from. From the uswb, but this is. You need an IT department.

[Brian Windhorst]

Wow. We. All right. Anyway, also in this game, I watched David Adelman, the coach of the Nuggets, play Jonas Valanchunas and Nikola Jokic together. That's interesting with Jokic playing four now. They were playing zone at the time, but that left Kawhi guarding Jokic, which I don't think the Clippers had put in their game plan. Game prep for that. And also we're recording this. They've pulled all their starters in this third quarter. Recording this during the second half of that game. The Nuggets took like 25 threes in the first half of that game with Tim Hardaway Jr. Contributing to that.

[Tim McMahon]

He'll let it fly now.

[Brian Windhorst]

And as you know, the Nuggets are a lower volume three point shooting team. And so you had Cam, you know, Michael Porter put up a lot, so it's not like that. But you know, Cam Johnson and Adelman or I mean, Hardaway putting up threes, even Valanchunas hoisting from out there. So Aaron Gordon looked really good as well, by the way. So anyway, I just, I was very fired up by, you know, one of those very good Western Conference games that we're going to get, like every day or two, if not multiple times a day, starting very soon. So I just want to say that, that regardless of all of the stuff that's gone on with the Clippers, the product on the court right now, there's it looks pretty good and Beal didn't play. The other thing I want to say Bon Temps. Today, the the Sixers had their open scrimmage, which I think was in Delaware, I think it was was at the Hens home gym, I think, and we had Joel Embiid sighting. Embiid played.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. So I went to Philly on Friday for the Sixers magic game, and the feedback I got on Joel Embiid was pretty positive, and I thought there was a decent chance that he could make his preseason debut and the final preseason game, which Philly is playing on Friday against Minnesota. I did not expect to see Joel Embiid play in this scrimmage this afternoon, Sunday afternoon, open to the public for fans to go see. And look, as we all know, the Joel Embiid situation can change on a dime, and he could have issues with his knee going forward, obviously, at any point. But right now, I think if you're a Sixers fan, you have to feel pretty decent about the fact that Embiid has been participating way more in camp than he did last year, when it was just a completely open question as to when he'd do anything. And the fact that he then went out and did this scrimmage today. And look, it certainly seems like he's on track to play next week in the opener in Boston. And I'm not sort of like we talked about on Friday with the wins pool. I'm not sitting here saying the Sixers are going to win 55 games, but a year ago it was championship or bust, and the expectations were really high and the season couldn't have gone any worse. As a result, the expectations are below the floor in Philly, and if the team is just solid and wins 40 some games and Joel plays 55 or 60 games, that's going to be a success for a lot of people. Based off where the expectations are. So I would say that things around there feel okay. And if Joel can play Friday in the preseason finale and play next week in the opener and be on the court on a regular basis for the Sixers, like, there's at least a chance they can have a decent season this year, which, you know, again, the whole talk all summer has just been that their whole thing is totally cooked. And if he could be out there on a regular basis, that's a big win. And I think today, while it sounded like for albeit you know, just talking to people who saw him, that he looked good playing today, I think the bigger thing is that he's just was willing to be out there at all in a public setting and playing, which I thought we might see on Friday, but that'd be the only time we'd see him before the Open.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. I watched a fair amount of video that emerged. I'm in ESPN headquarters, and we somehow collected a bunch of video. The game was not on any sort of television. It was just. A lot of people took video of it. He moved well. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and analyze a scrimmage, but it was. It kind of came out of nowhere for me. I mean, when I was with the Sixers last week in. In Abu Dhabi, none of the stuff that was where the media was around. Was Joel involved at all? That doesn't. You know, I wasn't there for all of it, obviously, but, you know, there was open practice periods and stuff, and Paul George was moving around, and Joel was. You know, he had a basketball. He was sort of walking around, but he was not doing any of the drills that I saw, so I didn't know. I had no idea how close he was. You know, there's optimism from the Sixers. You talk to their executives, coaches, you know, there's optimism, but, I mean, what am I supposed to take with Joel and beat optimism, you know, it's. You know, he'll be. He'll be playing when he's playing. So that was, you know, positive sign that, you know, the bummer for the Sixers is. There always is a bummer for the Sixers is that DJ Edgecom, who, you know, is just a dynamic young talent. Holy Moses.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, they're really excited about him.

[Brian Windhorst]

He. As. As you should be.

[Tim McMahon]

He was. He was the prize from their top sixing last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. And this hip thing you're about to say, he. He missed Friday's game with a hip issue. It does not sound serious at all. I expect him to practice early this week. Well, he's missed a couple of days. I, I think he's going to practice probably on Tuesday and I, it sounds like there's. It very little chance of it being any kind of issue. So we should see just. It sounds like other than Paul George, who I don't think is super far away, but it's not gonna, I don't think be ready for the opener. I think there's a good chance that we'll see most of the Sixers.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, no, Jared McCain on Friday.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. Jared McCain had thumb surgery. But you know, interesting to see what happens there.

[Tim McMahon]

By the way, speaking of super far or not super far away, but probably not ready for the opener. That's the, that's the category I would put Jalen Williams in. I did talk to him a little bit. Remember I told you guys he was only shooting left handed other than floaters.

[Brian Windhorst]

Layups, switching, swishing left handed shots by the way.

[Tim McMahon]

I mean, yeah, you know, I don't know if he's going to shoot a lot of left handed jumpers but yeah, I don't think his left hand probably, probably going to be better. But he said he'd only shot a few jumpers so far with his right hand. He does not want to put a timetable. He didn't want to like get into.

[Brian Windhorst]

Would it be amazing if a player was like, I want to put a timetable. Yeah, I am ready to put a timetable.

[Tim McMahon]

He did have a great line. He's, he, they knew by putting off the surgery till after the championship run that, you know, he might not be ready for the season. Of course, he was more than happy to pay that price. He said, I would have cut off my right hand to win a championship. I didn't have to do that. But he just started being able to.

[Brian Windhorst]

He had to have that right hand in good condition to sign that max contract extension.

[Tim McMahon]

Well and it is a super max eligible extension. So certainly I would say that while he might not be ready to start the season, he will be very determined to play at least 65 games and I don't think he's going to miss like a lot of time to start the season.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. It's important update. All right, so now that we got those odds and ends out of the way for our next trick, we wait for the Vegas season to start. Jackson ordered us. He came into this pod with an order.

[Tim McMahon]

The boss man.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, there's few, there's fewer things I dislike more than rank. Putting things in, putting anything into tears.

[Tim McMahon]

Do you like tears or Snake drafts better.

[Brian Windhorst]

I feel like I listened back and I feel like I performed reasonably well. I think that was my, you know, the standard's very low, but that was the best I've ever performed in a Snake draft. I think Bontemps kind of knocked me into the. Into rhythm early on, and I think I. I think I stayed in rhythm the whole time. You have. I don't know if you disagree with that.

[Tim McMahon]

No, I thought it was, you know, I thought, you know, like, by your standards, I was impressed.

[Brian Windhorst]

I can't argue with that statement. So for some reason, Jackson's like, put the east in tears. And I was like, great. This sounds like something that bond you and Bontems came up with when I wasn't involved. I guess we. What did you say, McMahon? We never did an Atlantic division preview.

[Tim McMahon]

So say some of our listeners.

[Brian Windhorst]

You said sort of. Anyway, no, we did it.

[Tim Bontemps]

We did this last year. We will just put the east in our own tears and that's how we'll do it. Just like we did last year. Be fine.

[Tim McMahon]

Dude, last I checked, Jackson's the boss and you're just an employee. So you chill out.

[Tim Bontemps]

You don't need to conform to Jackson's tears. Make our own. Wow.

[Tim McMahon]

This is called. And here's a vocabulary.

[Tim Bontemps]

Since when have you been a subordinate employee?

[Tim McMahon]

Insubordination.

[Tim Bontemps]

Answer my question.

[Brian Windhorst]

Never.

[Tim Bontemps]

Since when have you been a subordinate employee? The answer is never.

[Tim McMahon]

I'm pretty good as an employee.

[Brian Windhorst]

How often were you an insubordinate student?

[Tim McMahon]

Frequently.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim McMahon]

I'll give you some stats. I had a 12 week stint at Marcus High School, which is where Marcus Smart actually graduated from. Not named after him, though in those 12 weeks, 60 days, I was in pass, which is in school suspension for 37 of them. And then after Christmas break, I found myself.

[Tim Bontemps]

You're just a paragon of snow in Maine. You're just a paragon of follow orders.

[Brian Windhorst]

You were an out of school suspension. What. What was the typical in school suspension day like for young Timothy McMahon?

[Tim McMahon]

You couldn't talk. You just had to sit there and I don't even remember, like, you know, sit there and do work or whatever. They always had like, like the guy who was in charge of it was a football assistant coach. And like he didn't, you know, he was a big old dude like you, you know, you didn't mess around a whole lot in there.

[Brian Windhorst]

How did you keep getting in school suspension days if you were in. In suspension? Like, like how did you keep.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, I'd get out, then I'd go back in. I'd get out, then I'd go back in. It's like that.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's a paragon of bull following.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, we're going to follow Jackson's rules here.

[Tim Bontemps]

Jackson already said we don't have to follow the.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just saying.

[Tim McMahon]

You're so irritable.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he's got a six month old, so I'm not blaming him.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm not irritable at all. I like, I like the exercise. It's a fun exercise. It's an important exercise. It helps you figure out where the teams are.

[Tim McMahon]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim McMahon]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

For more on the ESPN app or at stream.espn.com sign up now. Okay, so tier one title contenders.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think we all have two, right? We all have two. We have more than two.

[Tim McMahon]

No two.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, you know, I think there could be some magic fans who feel like.

[Tim Bontemps]

The question is, do we have anybody or any more than two teams?

[Tim McMahon]

Two?

[Tim Bontemps]

Does Cavs corner have any more than two teams?

[Tim McMahon]

Cavs corner has one. But we're going to introduce some reason into this and make sure that no one's.

[Tim Bontemps]

We can have different answers.

[Tim McMahon]

New York City.

[Tim Bontemps]

We can have different answers.

[Tim McMahon]

No.

[Tim Bontemps]

Worried about more teams.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me ask you this is there is Jason Tatum dunking. Does that do anything for you?

[Tim McMahon]

No, not at all. Listen, if Tatum's obviously determined to come back this season, I hope it goes well. You know, I hope he's able to do that. I hope that his recovery goes phenomenally. There's no way you can reasonably expect Jason Tatum to come back in all NBA form this season.

[Tim Bontemps]

I agree. No, and even, and even if he does, let's say he does, they still lost Chris Esperzingus, Drew Holiday, Al Horford, Luke Cornett off this roster and replace none of them.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right, but they're not going up against the 98 Bulls here.

[Tim Bontemps]

They, they, they were probably going to lose to the Knicks with that team last year.

[Tim McMahon]

I have bond timps when they're down three one, you're predicting they were going to win the series.

[Tim Bontemps]

But I thought, listen, I would have picked them to win each game, but they were down 31 to the Knicks.

[Brian Windhorst]

With that team when Tatum had the unfortunate injury, that game was over. They were down three.

[Tim Bontemps]

They were down three to one. And I would have thought individually I would have picked them to win each game, but they don't have that team anymore by a long shot. So, you know, I like, look, if Jason Tatum come, I think there's a decent chance Boston will be in the playoffs this year. But no, I don't think you can realistically, you can't realistically put them anywhere near the top of the conference, no matter what videos obtain them are. And again, we all agree Tatum looks great. Hope he's back as soon as possible and able to play and able to look like Jason Tatum again. It'd be awesome.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, well, we'll see what's here.

[Tim McMahon]

Guys squeaking it's an accomplishment because he's coming off an Achilles, but a 69 guy squeaking a a dunk in is not like some amazing feat of athleticism.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I'm also fully on the record that he should not play this season no matter what and should take the 18 months off. And I think if you look at the Celtics actions, as we like to say on the pod, actions over words, their actions would indicate that they don't expect Jason Tatum to play either because they are treating it like a gap year.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would agree and they're certainly not going to tell him not to keep going for it, of course. But I would and I would say that the greatest recovery from Achilles in NBA history is Kevin Durant. And remember, he got about 18 months, so.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right.

[Brian Windhorst]

But I'm just going to. We'll see what we end up putting the Celtics. Here's, here's my sort of question.

[Tim Bontemps]

We haven't said so we haven't fully officially said Cavs and Knicks in Tier one. We all agree.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, let me ask you this about the Knicks. I feel like I'm going to keep coming back to this. I reserve the right to amend this, but when we get to February 1st and Mikhail Bridges becomes trade eligible, will that be something that the Knicks consider or not? Because to me, that's going to be a referendum on where this Knicks team is.

[Tim McMahon]

So what I would say is this. I don't think the Knicks make any major deals at the deadline because obviously they're determined to try to make a deal for a certain dude who's in Milwaukee that we've talked about a lot. And assuming that Giannis doesn't amend his, hey, if I change my mind in six or seven months timeline, assuming that he wouldn't push for a mid season trade, which would be shocking, that he would change his mind and do that mid season, why would the, why would the Knicks make a move now that might compromise their ability to make a real offer there?

[Brian Windhorst]

Because they're trying to win the freaking Eastern conference for the first time in 25.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't. Yeah. What my answer to this question would be. I think it's way too much of a hypothetical to answer honestly one way or the other. I mean, who knows where their team is going to be out on.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying as we go through this season, when we get to that spot, are they going to need, are they going to be in position where they think they can win the east or are they going to know that that day is coming?

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, there's a lot of factors here, too. Like they're also about 5 cents below the second apron. So even just making a trade involving anybody is going to be very difficult to do because they have to send out more money than they take in in a deal. And, you know, there's only so many moves you can make if you're that close to the apron anyway. So I think it's more likely than not. This is basically who their team is this season and we'll see how good they are and we'll see what it looks like. You know, you were singing their praises coming out of Abu Dhabi for the way their offense looked against half the Sixers. They then had about 25 points in 20 minutes against the Timberwolves in their first game at home after the trip. So, you know, it will be interesting to see how all this, you know, all the stuff that Mike Brown wants to put in goes and how the team looks and Wilma to Robinson be the starter. It looks like he will be. How will Josh Hart's hand be? What will their team look like? And you know, same thing with the Cavs. I mean Max Druce's Jones fractures very concerning. Darius Garland isn't, I think super far away again, guys that aren't super far away from coming back. But how is he going to fare coming back from this turf toe injury? Can Donovan Mitchell both stay healthy and then not wear down in the playoffs which has been an issue in past years? How much is Lonzo Ball going to be able to play? You know, can DeAndre Hunter and Dean Wade stay healthy? Like they, you know, they have a bunch of injury questions across the board but if they're healthy, we know how much talent they have and how good their offense can be. So I certainly don't think there's a lack of questions for either of these teams. But I also think that it's hard to put anybody else in the same group as them right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

I will say that the, you know, the one thing, one thing is with the Cavs, you know, Max Stru says this Jones fracture. Jones fractures are very hard to project. Recovery time timeline and so he's going.

[Tim Bontemps]

To be out a long time.

[Brian Windhorst]

Streuss is an important player for them. I will say that DeAndre Hunter has looked very good in the preseason. He's going to be a starter for.

[Tim Bontemps]

Them and places truths and he's got to stay healthy. I mean he's had a lot of injury issues too.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, he has a knee that you got to be careful with and so.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is Dean Wade the guy who's behind him who's also a very good player and has been very consistently on the shelf with injuries.

[Brian Windhorst]

So Dean Wade got a lot of extra minutes tonight because all the calves were not there and he did not look good in this game. I mean but yeah, he's got a.

[Tim Bontemps]

Lot of talent, but it's just both these teams have questions. It's just the teams behind them have more.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm just gonna say this, you know, and obviously some of this is affected by games, but there was one team last year that had two guys in the first two all NBA teams, Cleveland was it Mobley and Mitchell. And you know, they're giving more responsibility to Mobley. So it may be, you know, these early season injuries may Open up some doors, you know, for. For some things. So that's certainly one thing to watch. Obviously, though, they're going to have to be healthier than they are right now if they're going to win four playoff series. Okay, what are we going to call the second tier?

[Tim Bontemps]

Let's just say the second tier we don't need.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is a guy who, who loves tears more than anything.

[Tim McMahon]

I don't know.

[Tim Bontemps]

We can. You can come up with a name if you want. Let's figure out who's in the tier first. Normally I name the tears off who's in it.

[Brian Windhorst]

So you've got Orlando here, right?

[Tim Bontemps]

I do think Orlando's in this tier, but I have a lot of. I have some real concerns, but I.

[Tim McMahon]

Think we could call this the young teams on the rise tier.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, let's start with here. Do we have anybody besides Orlando and Atlanta here? I personally don't.

[Tim McMahon]

I'm putting Detroit. That's. I'm getting young teams on the rise with the Pistons in this one.

[Tim Bontemps]

Although it'll be the next year for me.

[Tim McMahon]

Although, you know, the departure or whatever you want to call it of Malik Beasley's, like, he made a pretty big impact there last year.

[Brian Windhorst]

He might still be back there.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, and we'll see what Duncan Robinson can do, but I'm talking about, like opening up the floor for Cade Cunningham was a huge, huge part of their success last year. Jaden Ivey does not do that. He is back. You know, he's taking the whatever minute Schroeder had. But Duncan Robinson for Beasley, you know, Duncan Robinson can, can shoot it too, but not very. There ain't a whole lot of volume shooters like, like Malik Beasley.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Three point shooting seasons in NBA history last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Are you putting Detroit in this tier, Brian?

[Brian Windhorst]

In all honesty, I'm trying to mull about where to put Milwaukee because, you know, Milwaukee won 48 games last year.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay. What did, what, how much did Damien Lillard contribute to that?

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, yeah. Well, okay. Still.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, this is a worse team than that team.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I know, but how, how much worse?

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, they lost an all star point guard. Didn't replace. I'd say that's pretty, pretty significantly worse.

[Tim McMahon]

And they don't have a point guard. Yeah, they do have the best player in the conference.

[Brian Windhorst]

The guy might win the MVP this year.

[Tim McMahon]

Absolutely. If. If Milwaukee ends up in this tier.

[Tim Bontemps]

In part, he, he part his best cancer, his best candidate, his best campaign. I can't think of the word slogan to run on is that the rest of his team isn't very good. And so he has to lift so much that if they win 48 games, he kind of like when Russell Westbrook won MVP like that. That's the MVP case for Giannis, not the Catch.

[Tim McMahon]

A slogan I've ever heard.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'm just, It's. But that's, that's the point, though. Like, I. To me, the two teams that should be here by themselves are Orlando and Atlanta. I think they're both talent wise. I think they're both clearly a step above Detroit. And there are real questions about both. Again, like, it's, you know, we've talked all summer about how much stronger the west is in the East. There's questions across the board. I just was with Orlando on Friday because they played Philly. I asked Jamal Mosley about Jalen Suggs, who had surgery on this cartilage issue in his knee back in January, hasn't practiced fully yet. They asked what's, you know, is there a chance of him playing in the preseason, being ready for the opener? And Jamal, I don't have the quote in front of me, but he essentially said he's done some five on. Oh, he hasn't done really contact stuff yet, and we have to check out his knee at each step to see how it responds. That is, I would say, an extremely concerning description of a knee that was operated on many months ago, 10 days before the season, for a guy who is critical to their chances still, because, yes, they got Desmond Bain, who's awesome, but if this team, like, if they were fully healthy, I think you could make a good argument. Orlando is maybe even right there with Cleveland in New York, but they need Jalen Suggs to be right. If Jalen Suggs isn't right, their whole season looks way different. And Atlanta's got a ton of talent, but we've got to see how it fits together. And Jalen Johnson's got to be able to stay on the court. Chris Esperzingis has got to be able to stay on the court. These young guys all have to develop. Like, there's a lot of things they have to solve, but their roster is really deep and interesting, and they got a chance to be really good if it all comes together right?

[Brian Windhorst]

So Detroit is a situation where you wonder, did they absolutely maximize out what they could do with that roster last year, or is there still, because they're so young, is there still room where they're going to rise again this year? I don't know, but I'll tell you that looking at Cade Cunningham wagering on him still being ascendant is not unreasonable.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, and so I, you know, listen, Jalen Duran doesn't get nearly as much attention. He's not going to put up the numbers. Kate Cunningham does. But Jalen Duran is a guy who's been awfully productive and he's a big time ascending talent as is a Sar Thompson. They've got some young guys other than Cunningham that are awfully dynamic athletes and have been on the floor now in a playoff series and belong.

[Brian Windhorst]

Atlanta added bona fide veteran players. Chris House Porzingis assuming health bona fide veteran player Nikhil Alexander Walker, bona fide player. Not that Luke Canard is a difference maker but like that's a rotation player that you, you know what he's going to do. He's going to shoot 40% on high volume threes. So if you're going to say to me, I believe in Atlanta, yeah, I'm saying, okay, I got it. Like, you know, Trey is a bona fide player and, and you know, Jalen Johnson is still, you know, that's where they're going to lift their team. And you know there's, don't forget Zachary Richache had a really good last quarter of the season and you're expecting him to, to go. So I mean I like, I'm with you Bon temps on having Atlanta there. I'm, I'm debating about Detroit and, and Milwaukee. I'm sure, you know, Milwaukee thinks they're there because if not they would have looked at this summer differently. But they seem to think that they're there, that they're in that tier that's right below.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I, I would personally to me the next tier is very big because there's a lot of teams sort of in the middle of the east that are, that have upside to push into the top four but also some real questions about whether they're going to potentially be in the play in depending on injuries or inconsistent play from young guys or whatever. And that's to me where I think Detroit is there, I think Milwaukee is there. I think a few other teams are.

[Tim McMahon]

All right, I'll, I'll give Wendy the tie breaking vote on Detroit.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean we could all do our own tier. It's just they're either going to be in two or three. So you have two and I have in three.

[Tim McMahon]

Have to make cute little graphics.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think the top end, I think Orlando's ceiling is higher because again I'm betting on Banchero's. You know, you're looking at these number one overall picks, you know, Bankaro and Cunningham.

[Tim McMahon]

Don't give me wishy washy Windy.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm gonna include. I'm gonna include Detroit.

[Tim McMahon]

Screw you then, Bond Temps. You're overruled.

[Tim Bontemps]

They'll be in my third tier. It's fine.

[Tim McMahon]

No, you don't get Frontier.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, so the third tier.

[Tim Bontemps]

Get our own tears.

[Brian Windhorst]

The third tier is the gap year boys at least. Right. So you're starting with. With Indian Boston in Boston.

[Tim McMahon]

I mean you do have to put Milwaukee in there like.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I would have to me personally, I would have Detroit, Miami. Well, no, I mean I, I would have Boston and Indy. Lower. I would have Detroit, Milwaukee, Miami. And there's one other team that I'm now blanking on that I was going to have. I have.

[Brian Windhorst]

You would have Miami and Detroit in the same tier?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I think if you like. Miami added Norm Powell for free this summer. And last year The Heat won 37 games and they were 14 and 28 in clutch games. If they're 500 in clutch games, they're a 45 win team last year and I think they're going to be better.

[Brian Windhorst]

They also realize that their all star is going to be out for a while.

[Tim McMahon]

You just did bad math, but that's okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

Go on 44 wins.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

The point is there they would be a mid 40 win team, which is where Detroit was last year. And I think the Heat are better this year than they were last year as Tyler Hero is going to be out for a little while with the foot injury. But I would bet on them to be better and I think if they are right, I think they've got a chance to be in the mix to finish in the top four in the east just like I think Detroit does. Detroit's banking on these young guys all getting better like you said. McMahon, Jalen, Dern, Asar Thompson, Ron Holland, the fifth pick last year, Jaden Ivy, who missed a lot of last year with a, with a. Obviously the, the leg injury. But if you're betting on a lot of young guys getting better, those guys could also plateau a bit. They could also regress a bit. You know, progression for young guys is not a linear thing. Milwaukee certainly could be in the top four if, if Giannis stays healthy and Miles Turner stays healthy and you know these, you know, they, the supporting guys around them hit shots, AJ Green and Gary Trent and Giannis has to stay.

[Tim McMahon]

Healthier than he has been correct in recent years though. Like Giannis camp, If he's playing 67 games, which is, you know, pretty typical number for him. If they play 15 games without Giannis, what are they doing? Three of them, maybe they'll be lucky.

[Tim Bontemps]

To go five and ten.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah. So lucky. They need. They. Giannis has to be a superhero who plays 70 some odd games.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, which is why I have him down here, because there's some real downside, you know, so I would have. And then I would have all. I would have all those teams ahead of Boston and he personally. Because I just think it's more likely than not that. I mean, I certainly don't think Halbert is playing and I think it's unlikely Tatum is playing. And yeah, in that case, maybe those teams are in the play in, but I don't really see a case for them to finish top four where I think all three of those teams are top four teams.

[Brian Windhorst]

If things go, I think Boston probably thinks that it's got a shot at the top six. If things go well, I mean, and, and they maximize their situation, they probably think they've got a shot.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I've talked to this and I mean, I saw the Celtics last week. I mean, I know that's Joe Missoula's thinking and belief, and I know that's what they're going to attempt to do. They also have, you know, they have a very unproven, to put it charitably, center rotation. And again, like, they're a lot like Milwaukee to a degree. If either Derrick White or Jason or Jaylen Brown misses any games, they're suddenly very, very, very light on the wing.

[Brian Windhorst]

And if that happens, you reevaluate.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay, so this is, this is the shot at the top six tier. Then are we including last season's top sixers in the shot at the top six tier?

[Tim Bontemps]

I would. I would include Philly in here, too, and I would include Toronto here.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would. Wow, this is a gigantic tier.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that's what I mean.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's got the whole conference in here.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, how many tiers you want? Jackson's got six. That's too damn many here.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't care about.

[Tim McMahon]

That's where Bonton's trying to take over.

[Brian Windhorst]

I just has the Cavs and the, and the Knicks in one tier. Then he's got the Magic and Hawks and then he's got pretty much everybody else besides.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I think. I think there's. I think there's six or seven teams that are in the next group because I think all of them could finish anywhere from 5th to 10th. Like, they're all. They're all. They all have the. Like Toronto. Toronto has here. Well, if you're saying who can make the top six, I think Toronto can make the top six in the East.

[Tim McMahon]

Nope, not doing that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Toronto. I mean I think Toronto's got a chance to easily be better than Milwaukee or Detroit or Miami this year. They've got.

[Tim McMahon]

You've been, you've been, you've been drinking Molson, haven't you?

[Tim Bontemps]

No, I mean the rap. Look, I don't like the Raptors long term championship ceiling, but they have, they have Scotty Barnes who is a very good young player. They add Brandon Ingram, he didn't even play last season. They've got Jacob Hurtle who's a solid big. To anchor their defense. Emmanuel Quickley, R.J. barrett. They have a solid core of talent and they're pretty deep and they're going to be trying to win games and their, their goal is to win as many games as possible. Like if Giannis, like you just, we just talked about if Giannis misses any time. I think there, there's plenty of worlds where Toronto is better than the Bucks this season. From a win loss standpoint.

[Brian Windhorst]

I will say.

[Tim McMahon]

Wendy, are you letting them put Toronto in this tier?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, if it's. Who's going to make that? If, if it's. If you've got a chance to make the top six, then I think it's a pretty good.

[Tim McMahon]

I asked, I asked the host.

[Brian Windhorst]

I will say that Ingram has looked pretty good in the preseason. I don't. For. I don't know. Whatever that's worth. By the way, the Raptors played the Wizards in a very highly watched afternoon preseason game on Sunday. It was the Raptors fourth preseason game. It was only the Wizards first preseason game which is pretty remarkable.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, summer league is the counts as preseason for the Wizards in that game.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, the Raptors wanted on a last second sideline out of bounds play where Olivier Saar, who is Alex Saar's brother. Alex Sar of the Wizards.

[Tim McMahon]

Yes. Coming back off an Achilles that he, that he tore during the G League championship team, the OKC Blues G League championship win a couple seasons ago.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. So he's. So it was actually kind of a weird, kind of unusual moment. Olivia. The Raptors are down by one. I don't. It was like a second left. The ball's at half court and they run a backdoor half court pass to Olivier Saar who scores at the buzzer to win. And Alex Saar has gotta be like obviously his team lost but you know, it's A preseason game. But his brother, who's trying, fighting for his NBA life, you know, coming back off this injury, hits this game winner. Now naturally the, the, the camera goes to Alex Saar, who is like stone faced, you know, his team just lost, you know, which is going to happen a lot this year. But like, come on, like inside he's got to like be really happy for his brother. Right?

[Tim Bontemps]

Like, you would, you would think so.

[Tim McMahon]

I would think.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hey, the game didn't exactly count.

[Tim McMahon]

That reminds me. Freaking Utah and San Antonio went into overtime.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was at a Wiz. I was at Wolves, Knicks on Thursday. That went into overtime.

[Tim McMahon]

That went in overtime too.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sure did.

[Tim McMahon]

Listen, dude, no overtime in preseason, okay?

[Tim Bontemps]

Should end in a tie.

[Tim McMahon]

Here's the deal. No overtime in the preseason. Nobody wants that, okay? If you have to have a winner, have like a half court shooting contest.

[Tim Bontemps]

You don't even have to have a winner. Just haven't ended a tie. It's a preseason game.

[Tim McMahon]

Overtime in preseason. That's ridiculous.

[Tim Bontemps]

Have it end in the tie.

[Tim McMahon]

Also, I gotta tell you, Saturday and Sunday, preseason basketball should be a fireable offense.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay?

[Tim McMahon]

Listen, I had to.

[Brian Windhorst]

What about, what about in the afternoon?

[Tim McMahon]

I. Dude, I had to leave, get off my couch in the third quarter of the Texas game to go watch.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, this is.

[Tim McMahon]

Come on. No, no, you can't do that.

[Tim Bontemps]

You can't stop whining about your job.

[Tim McMahon]

No, I'm not whining about my job. Trust me. The fans want to watch college football too. And NFL football. We can't have preseason basketball conflicting with football weekends.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay?

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Anyway, do I put the Raptors in that tier? No, I do not. But I see, but I see why.

[Tim Bontemps]

They don't call it. Well, if you're the one coming up with the names, don't call it. The teams that can make the top.

[Tim McMahon]

Six, then I have naming rights and you have getting out voted rights.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Raptors are a team that is hard to exactly pin down because they are, they are incentivized, but certainly bon temps. You would, you would pick Philly over the Raptors, right?

[Tim Bontemps]

Assuming, I think it's more likely Toronto has a better record than Philly. Because if Paul George and Joel Embiid are injured, because again, this is why I think this tier is so big. Like, I think that they're. If you're grading it out on probability, I think the probability outcome is Toronto's better than Philly, but Philly ceiling is unquestionably higher. Because if Joel Embiid is healthy and Paul George is healthy. They're better than the Raptors. But if those guys are hurt, especially Joel Embiid because the Sixers have no size then yes they have these good guards but they're going to really struggle on a nightly basis especially going up as the league has gone big and they are very small other than Andre Drummond who you've got him into dembona and that's not exactly going to be able to hold up against you know, the by the way starters around the league.

[Brian Windhorst]

Now we talked earlier about Valencianas and Jokic playing together and you know, the big lineups that the Clippers can use because the Sixers are so bereft at power forward.

[Tim McMahon]

Good work.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nick Nurse is talking about playing Adam Bona and and be together.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, forget that they're probably starting a two way. Dominic Barlow who played for the spurs and the Hawks at power forward on opening night would be my guess. So that that tells you the lack of sight and that's what you all playing but that they don't him and trend in Watford who's bounced around is an interesting younger prospect and Jabari Walker, Smocky Walker's kid who was on a two way was in Portland. Those are their best Options at the 4 until Paul George gets back. And Paul George is an undersized four. So you know. But yeah I think Toronto, I think.

[Brian Windhorst]

When I was a kid Paul George was a two.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well I know that's why if you say out of a hundred you simulate the season 100 times like Toronto I think probably finishes with a better record more often because you have to assume that Embiid and Paul George miss a lot of time.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, it's a shot of the top six Toronto to inhabit they're in the next year.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. So this next tier, whatever you want to call it, I don't know what we're.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't know what we're doing at this point.

[Brian Windhorst]

What did you even decide last year McMahon? Do you have Miami ahead of Toronto? Yes, I think I do.

[Tim McMahon]

I think the next tier is the planner bus tier and you know, I mean or it can be, you know, the Chicago Invitational tier and to me it's Bulls and Raptors. Those are the two teams that are going to be just duking it out for that 10 seed.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I think the big thing about Miami is what kind of season are they going to get from Bam Adebayo.

[Tim Bontemps]

He had a bad offensive season last year. I expect him to be better.

[Brian Windhorst]

I talked to Eric Spoelster over the weekend for a story that shall come this week. He has a big moment coming this week. You may have heard. And you know, he's. When we were getting off the phone, he said, I'm. We're going to give you a reason to come to Miami this year.

[Tim McMahon]

Oh, okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

I said, oh, he's sending bottoms. You know, maybe you'll get bottoms.

[Tim McMahon]

He said, please know. Hey, we all know might be Roman South Beach.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true. Our man om young Masuka moving east this year. We'll have him on. We'll have him on soon. All right, so this is the tanker. We're down to the tanker tier now, right? Because you. Because bots are wearing.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hold on, hold on a second.

[Tim McMahon]

Discuss the Bulls.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hold on, hold on a second. Hold on a second.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, no, but no, I forgot about the Bulls.

[Tim Bontemps]

I forgot about you guys. You.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'll real talk.

[Tim Bontemps]

I said a whole bunch of teams were in the third tier for me.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay, here's.

[Tim Bontemps]

You guys didn't. I'm just saying you guys didn't. Like you didn't do anything with Indiana.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, no, I had Indiana in that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was asking because you never said.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay, moment of clarity here. Top tier, true contenders.

[Tim Bontemps]

We know the top four. What do you have after that?

[Tim McMahon]

The next tier.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay.

[Tim McMahon]

We got Orlando, Atlanta and you were outvoted, so we put Detroit in there. After that we are going with. Not in, not an order, but just in the tier. We are going with Milwaukee, Indy, Boston, Philly, Miami.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, hold on.

[Brian Windhorst]

Milwaukee.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay, Milwaukee.

[Tim Bontemps]

Why is Indiana. Why is Indiana with those teams?

[Tim McMahon]

They got a shot at the top six.

[Tim Bontemps]

What, what. In what world are they have a better shot than or than Toronto when they don't have. Well, hold on a second. Let's do the exercise. They lost Tyres Halliburton. They lost Miles Turner. They didn't replace either of them. How are they going to be a top 16?

[Brian Windhorst]

How dare you besmirch J. Huff.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, they. They got the third center from Memphis. Jayhoff's an interesting stretch.

[Brian Windhorst]

Kevin Pelton is high on him.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, what's the argument besides the machines. Machine, Honestly, they are better than these teams.

[Tim McMahon]

The. The argument would seriously start with their coach. Like they. They have a top five coach in the league. If, if not higher.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I think Rick's a very good coach, but they lost two of their three or four best players and didn't replace them. No, well, can't say they're in the same realm as those other.

[Tim McMahon]

And Nim Hard needs to. Nim Harden needs to take a leap. Mathura needs to take a leap. You know, Siakam's a stud. You know, they're, they're probably toward the bottom of this tier, but they're in it.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree. I think they've got more proven players. I think they got more proven players that I would prefer to go to, to. To. To war with, to battle with than Chicago or Miami.

[Tim McMahon]

I said Nimhard needs to, I mean, Chicago have a regular season like he, like he has in the playoffs, like he needs to perform in the regular season like he does in the playoffs. It is a huge year for Nimhard, though, because he's going to be sure it's. In a lot of ways, I think.

[Tim Bontemps]

Engine is a good player. I just, I, I will. I would very confidently bet that the Spacers will not be a top 16.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay, well, I said shot at. Would you bet that the Raptors will have a better record than the Pacers?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, would actually.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay, good.

[Brian Windhorst]

He thinks the Raptors are going to finish ahead of the Sixers and the Pacers.

[Tim McMahon]

I will bet you.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think that. I think the Raptors will definitely finish ahead of the Pacers. I am not, I would not say that about Philly, but.

[Brian Windhorst]

And your case for the Raptors is you. Is that you think what that you think Ingram is going to carry them. The Ingram.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I think last year, last year, if they hadn't literally done everything they could to lose every single game down the stretch, when they won, I want to say 32 games last year, they were, they were going to win somewhere in the neighborhood of 37, 38 games last year. And they add Brandon Ingram to their team. Scotty Barnes is a year older and they have a deep rotation of solid players. Like, again, this is not some argument that Toronto is going to finish third, but all of these teams, like, what I would say is they're a high ceiling or a high floor, low ceiling team where I think they're going to win low 40s games because they're going to be trying to win every night. They have a pretty good amount of depth and they're going to be pushing to win as much as possible. And a lot of the other teams around them are much thinner, have more injury questions and are going to potentially be looking to drop down and be in the lottery. Like Indiana, for example, like Rick Carlisle, as you know, Tim has been very good at going the other way and they got stipulating lineups and rosters to make sure.

[Tim McMahon]

Because, by the way, Rick Carlisle, Rick Carlisle's owner at the time, well, it's a different situation because of the ownership situation.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'm, but I'm saying if you're, if you're the Pacers. Yes, the Pacers have always pushed to compete. However, if there was ever a year when you were going to take your foot off the gas a little bit, it would be a year when your franchise point guard is coming back in a year. Everybody is aware that it's. You're taking the year off to some degree and it wouldn't be very hard for the Pacers to wind up somewhere in the range of where Dallas was last year in the lottery. And we just saw what happened with that and I think that is a far more likely outcome for the Pacers this year.

[Brian Windhorst]

And if you get to January and that's the case, then I could see that. But you know, as we're in October.

[Tim McMahon]

So plan or bust here, Toronto and.

[Tim Bontemps]

Chicago, we'll just ignore facts. It's all good. Let's see, the facts are.

[Tim McMahon]

Let's see here. Chicago had the last play in spot last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean Chicago, I mean yes, Chicago. I mean yes, Chicago obviously should just be in their own tier. Is like fighting for 10th, which is what Chicago has done in perpetuity forever and will be doing again, I'm sure this year despite their.

[Brian Windhorst]

What a great slogan. The 25, 26 bulls colon. Fighting for 10th.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean the real question is will the Bulls finish for what I believe would be an NBA record fourth straight year with either 39 or 40 victories. Everybody definition of.

[Brian Windhorst]

Everybody got. Everybody got extended dude.

[Tim McMahon]

Bon temps. You of all people, you are the durability pool release and you're all sky high on Brandon Ingram. Brandon Ingram has not played 65 games since his rookie.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, I'm, I'm not sky high on Brandon Ingram, but I think adding Brandon Ingram to the Raptors I think is going to make them a better team this year. And they were already a team that last year was going to be a mid to high 30 win team before they tanked the final two and a half months of the season as hard as you could possibly do.

[Brian Windhorst]

It got him the ninth pick.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. And it got him Colin Murray Boyles the ninth pick in the draft. So. No.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, all right.

[Tim Bontemps]

They just have a lot of. They just have a lot of okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

Plex at the bottom.

[Tim McMahon]

Hey there, you're coming up with all the market.

[Brian Windhorst]

20, 25, 26 Raptors. Colon. We got a lot of okay players.

[Tim Bontemps]

Again the argument, what I'm saying is in the Eastern Conference where all these teams have injury questions. If you just are able to field a full roster every night, you're going to pick up a bunch of wins. That's the point. Because all these other teams have giant questions.

[Tim McMahon]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is a real good story about Bronx and his dad, Ryan. Real United Airlines customers. We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and.

[Tim McMahon]

Meet Kathy and Andrew.

[Tim Bontemps]

I got to sit in the driver's seat. I grew up in an aviation family and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me.

[Tim McMahon]

Of myself when I was that age.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's Andrew, a real United pilot.

[Tim McMahon]

These small interactions can shape a kid's future.

[Tim Bontemps]

It felt like I was the captain.

[Tim McMahon]

Allowing my son to see the flight.

[Brian Windhorst]

Deck will stick with us forever.

[Tim McMahon]

That's how good leads the way.

[Brian Windhorst]

Eight years ago, I blew my football career. He dropped it at the one yard line.

[Tim Bontemps]

Chad Powers has arrived on Hulu. If I can't play as Russ, I'll.

[Brian Windhorst]

Play as someone else.

[Tim Bontemps]

My name's Chad and last name from executive producer stuff. Eli and Pton Manning. Remember, been wearing a prosthetic mask. This is acting and starring Glenn Powell.

[Brian Windhorst]

He thinks you're a rubber chew toy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Not rubber. I'm a man made of flesh. The Hulu original series Chad Powers is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on.

[Brian Windhorst]

Disney plus for bundle subscribers terms apply.

[Tim McMahon]

New episodes Tuesdays.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, in the bottom tier. Tanking for better days.

[Tim McMahon]

Hey, what was.

[Tim Bontemps]

Should just be everybody that's left.

[Tim McMahon]

It is everybody that's left. What? How about this quote from Brooklyn's owner?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, hold on, let me. You.

[Tim McMahon]

You said, let me, let me find this thing. I mean, this was, this was amazing.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, yeah, I mean, look, Joe side just said what everybody knows, which is.

[Tim McMahon]

But you can't do this. This is, this is a fineable quote. This is from.

[Tim Bontemps]

I did not think it was a findable quote personally.

[Tim McMahon]

We have 1 pick in 2026 and we hope to get a good pick. So you can predict what kind of strategy we will use for this season.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, the strategy is they just drafted five first round picks. They're going to play them all and as a result, they're going to lose games and play their young players.

[Tim McMahon]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me, let me, let me clean this up.

[Tim McMahon]

They're tanking.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me clean this up a little bit. Josiah, the Brooklyn Nets owner was on a podcast, the all in podcast.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

And he said, well, I have to say we're in a rebuilding year. We spent all of our 20 to 2025 picks and we had five first round picks this past summer. We have one pick in 2026. In other words, they had five last year. This year they've got one and we hope to get a good pick. So you can predict what kind of strategy we'll use for this year.

[Tim McMahon]

Well, and also they don't have their own pick next year.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right.

[Tim Bontemps]

Because I think at least next year might be more than next year.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, but I'm saying that goes back to the trade that you defended. To me, it's still insane. They didn't, when they, when they made the deal with the Rockets, send them all that Sun's capital that they didn't get their own swap rates.

[Brian Windhorst]

And then it wasn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, again, it wasn't. I would. That's like ignoring the fact that the Rock, like the Rockets pushed for a good deal and made a good deal because the Nets were. It was much more viable than that's to get their own picks back. Like, yes, it's going to work out well for Houston, but if the Nets had gotten Cooper flag last year, it would have been a great trade. And if they get Darren Peterson or AJ DeBancer this year, it will be a great trade. Like, yes, some of that requires luck for them, but they got their picks back to get control of their draft for two years to bottom out, try to get some high picks and then start turning their team around again.

[Brian Windhorst]

Here's what Jordy Fernandez, their head coach, said he was asked about.

[Tim Bontemps]

This was an incredible quote.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. If Jordy's coaching career, which is going very well, if it, if it ever bottles out, he, he could, he could become a lawyer. Because Jordy Fernandez was asked about the Joe Psy quote about basically admitting they're tanking, which everybody knows, but you're not allowed to say.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right?

[Brian Windhorst]

Quote. He says he wants a good draft pick because no matter where we pick, our front office is so good that we're going to pick a very good player. So wherever we pick, that's why he's excited. Because we're gonna, we're gonna pick. Right.

[Tim McMahon]

We love all the guys that we've drafted. Cam Thomas, what contract you on this year, buddy? We didn't like you enough to extend you. But hey.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was, that was like if I was in the. If I, I feel like I'm at the point where I could have like said, everybody, let's stop and let's applaud George artwork.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let's just apply.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was a work. That was a work of art.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was beautifully done.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was a work of art. Charlotte Washington and Charlotte Washington in Brooklyn. Right. We're not forgetting.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, Charlotte is not technically tanking, but it's gonna be.

[Tim McMahon]

No, they're just bad and they're just. God, again, I saw him.

[Tim Bontemps]

Charlotte's doing the same. Charlotte's doing the same thing as Brooklyn and Washington. They have. They have no. No centers with experience on their team for a reason.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, they traded away.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's true. They signed Mason Plumlee for a minimum. But again, I. They. They did. They divested from the center position for a reason.

[Tim McMahon]

Your Creighton guy was putting into the old Mavs the other day. Oh, Colt, right?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Ryan Kalkbrenner will play a ton of minutes this year for the Hornets, presuming he's healthy. And look, they have a bunch of, like, I'm interested to see con canople with Brandon Miller and Lamello Ball. Like, it's going to be an interesting year for them.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'll say this. The difference between Charlotte and Brooklyn and Washington is that you can look at Charlotte and say, there's a couple of players here. You can see our corner pieces.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, the difference between Charlotte, Brooklyn and Washington is Charlotte has three players drafted in the top four, Washington has one and Brooklyn has none. That's the difference.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's a fair point.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah. And, you know, one player draft in the top four canople obviously hasn't played yet. You know, I played a regular season game and he's a rookie. You know, Brandon Miller is. Is talented. You know, I wouldn't say he had.

[Tim Bontemps]

A pretty good rookie year. And then he missed most last year with a wrist injury. We'll see how he looks. And it's a big year for Lamelo Ball.

[Tim McMahon]

And then Lamello ball is a mega talent who I just don't think can be the face of a winning franchise. And by the way, that's not an, like, considered a controversial opinion when you talk to people within the league.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, it's. That's why it's a big. It's a big year for him. Like, can he stay healthy? He has not been healthy. And can he show that he can start to push them in a different direction? Obviously they're not going to win 50 games this year, but can they start to look like a, you know, a functioning team?

[Brian Windhorst]

As, you know, a year ago, probably right about this time, I argued that Lamelo had upside and like, I sort of went up against you guys and, you know, sort of took a position on Lamelo.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

And just hated Watching him play in.

[Tim McMahon]

That system last year, I just so frustrated. I mean he is incredibly talented but like, dude, the shot selection is like.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I mean listen, forget, forget, forget that the last three years he's played 36, 22 and 47 games. Like, forget, forget any questions about his style of play. I'm not saying they're not valid.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would say remember that. Don't forget it. Remember it because when he's playing the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Beginning, the beginning, the beginning point is can he stay on the court? Can he play 70 games? Can he play 65 games? But the other questions, the other questions are irrelevant if he can't stay on the court.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, but even if he's on the court, like dude, the shot selection is.

[Tim Bontemps]

Atrocious and no, I'm agreeing with you.

[Tim McMahon]

Smart guy who like nobody that intelligent should get back cut on a regular basis. Defensively he doesn't care. He does not care to compete.

[Tim Bontemps]

He hasn't been on the court to compete. Again, these, these points are valid but let's see him play 65 games. He's Zion Williamson. He can't stay on the court. They need to both stay on the court.

[Tim McMahon]

This year you had Brandon Ingram first team all NBA.

[Tim Bontemps]

No.

[Tim McMahon]

What do you care about 65 games suddenly?

[Tim Bontemps]

I did not. I did not have him first team all day. I would like to see Brandon Ingram. I would like to see Brandon Ingram play this year and I would. More importantly, again, all these criticisms of Lamella Ball's game are very valid. He's averaged 40 games played a season. He played 75 games his second year. He made the all star team. No other season as he played more than 51. So can he play 75 games real.

[Brian Windhorst]

Quick that Jakob Pertle contact extension, baby.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, it's not great. I mean, it's what I mean, I didn't like, I didn't love the Brandon Ingram trade. I didn't like the Brandon Ingram extension. I didn't like the Pearl extension. But they again, I didn't like the Amanda quickly extension the year before, but they have a bunch of solid to above average NBA players in their rotation.

[Tim McMahon]

And like okay, in the last 10 minutes.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, but that's again it's like you can win a lot. You can win a decent number of games in the NBA just having eight to 10 solid players, no one about.

[Tim McMahon]

And be neck and neck with the Bulls for that last playing spot.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're, they will be better than the Bulls.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Well, this is going to be fascinating. I was, I was waiting for someone to Make a wager on the Raptors over.

[Tim McMahon]

Yeah, we've already got a dinner so we can't do. We can't do that.

[Brian Windhorst]

What's the way dinner bet? I forget.

[Tim McMahon]

I'm gone. Spurs over under. What do you. It's come an annual tradition and I negotiated it down.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, you did. Well, the thing is he'll keep negotiating as the season goes along. He'll have it down to about.

[Tim Bontemps]

He'll try like last year.

[Tim McMahon]

No, there. There is the Wimby 50 game minimum.

[Brian Windhorst]

That.

[Tim McMahon]

That's in the fine print again for sure.

[Brian Windhorst]

Again.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, fine. Last fine print. Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Well, I can't wait for the west heres later this week.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hold on.

[Tim McMahon]

We don't. We're not going to discuss the Wizards.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, the Wizards and Nets are. Are doing what they're doing.

[Tim McMahon]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

We'll see if. We'll see if they can get lucky this year after they didn't last year.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Thank you, Jackson, for putting forward this terrific idea that hasn't such. I was in a good mood at the start of this podcast because I was so excited about the Nuggets and.

[Tim McMahon]

Has this dole your enthusiasm after that first preseason.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm gonna tell you. No, I'm gonna tell you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Like, remember, this guy just predicted the visa Zubach is making all NBA. I'm just gonna tell you on the list of things that were said on this podcast that are allegedly controversial, the Raptors being a potential top 16 is far less controversial than Zubots, who I really like as a player. Very good player. But him making all NBA this season. Okay, not all star, all NBA.

[Tim McMahon]

Okay, here's. Here's the deal. If Zubots is not all NBA, when do you have to take one coach flight to Los Angeles?

[Brian Windhorst]

From where? From your.

[Tim McMahon]

One of your LA flights after the season. You know, one of your summer LA flights.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's a. There's a negative. There's a negative percent chance that's happened. Negative. Listen, the man. This man does not fly coach.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anyway, I was very, very happy about watching. I was very, very excited about watching Zubotch in this game. He looked absolutely.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's great. I love you making a prediction, buddy. It's great. Let's go. More predictions. Predictions are fun.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, west here is coming later this week. So we're back on Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. All right, thank you for watching. Listen to Collective. Thank you to Bon Thompson McMahon. Thank you to all of our fans in Toronto who are gonna just.

[Tim Bontemps]

They'll still be mad.

[Brian Windhorst]

They're gonna love Bon Temps.

[Tim McMahon]

They're mad at me for unrelated reasons. Anyway, I've got myself in trouble with all Canadians.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're always the Raptors. We love the Raptors, fans, but they're always upset.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's enough from you, McMahon. All right? We'll talk to you later this week.

[Tim McMahon]

Adios, amigos.