Fox To Spurs Trade Reaction + Mavs Awkward Luka Trade Presser & Lakers’ Star History

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode Title: Fox To Spurs Trade Reaction + Mavs Awkward Luka Trade Presser & Lakers’ Star History
Release Date: February 3, 2025

In this episode of Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective, host Brian Windhorst, alongside co-hosts Tim MacMahon, Tim Bontemps, and Zach Lowe, delve into significant NBA trade developments, focusing on the recent three-way trade involving De'Aaron Fox, the Dallas Mavericks' controversial decision to trade Luka Doncic, and the Los Angeles Lakers' historical pattern of acquiring star players. The discussion is enriched with insights from Ramona Shelburne, providing a comprehensive analysis of the NBA's evolving landscape.

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1. Spurs and Bulls Three-Way Trade Analysis

The episode kicks off with a detailed examination of the recent three-way trade between the San Antonio Spurs, Chicago Bulls, and Sacramento Kings. The trade primarily sees De'Aaron Fox moving to the Spurs, while Zach Lowe transitions to the Kings.

Key Points:

• Bulls' Strategy: The Chicago Bulls traded away De'Aaron Fox, DeMar DeRozan, and Alex Caruso to reacquire a top-pick back, signaling a tanking move to rebuild.

  "They traded their best player and got the pick back." — Brian Windhorst [04:56]

• Spurs' Gains: The Spurs acquired Fox without sacrificing key rotation players, maintaining their competitive edge.

  "They get the Aaron Fox for, you know, no key rotation player." — Brian Windhorst [09:18]

• Kings' Position: Zach Lowe’s move to the Kings is seen as a strategic gain, providing them with a solid performer while the Bulls optimize their draft assets.

  "They gave up Zach Levine for De'Aaron Fox's performance, which is a decent return given their situation." — Zach Lowe [12:15]

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Bontemps highlights the Bulls' mismanagement:

  "It's just truly staggering mismanagement." [05:59]

• Zach Lowe commends Vlad’s legacy:

  "The Spurs are freaking thrilled." [10:33]

2. Lakers’ Acquisition of Luka Doncic

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the Los Angeles Lakers acquiring Luka Doncic, marking another chapter in the Lakers' history of securing star talents mid-career.

Key Points:

• Historic Pattern: The Lakers have a legacy of trading for superstar players, from Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal to LeBron James and Pau Gasol.

  "It's historic. I don't know how it'll end up like that with a statue outside Crypto, but it's a continuation of history." — Ramona Shelburne [17:34]

• Trade Dynamics: The process of acquiring Doncic was kept remarkably discreet, contrasting with previous high-profile trades that often led to public disputes and management issues.

  "The trade can be said no. If they go to Luka Doncic... I don't think he wanted to be traded from Dallas." — Ramona Shelburne [25:00]

• Player Reactions: Anthony Davis' gesture of waving his trade kicker indicates his approval of the move, suggesting a smooth transition within the Lakers' roster.

  "Anthony Davis waves his trade kicker $6 million. That action indicates to me he approves the trade." — Brian Windhorst [27:00]

Notable Quotes:

• Ramona Shelburne reflects on the secrecy and lessons from past trades:

  "All those in Lakers have to hope now is that Luka has the same kind of wake-up moment from this trade." [21:44]

• Brian Windhorst emphasizes actions over words:

  "Actions over words. And that action indicates to me he approves the trade." [27:00]

3. Historical Context: Lessons from Past Lakers Trades

Ramona Shelburne provides a retrospective analysis of the Lakers' previous significant trades, drawing parallels and lessons that inform their current strategy with Luka Doncic.

Key Points:

• Chris Paul Trade (2011): An attempted trade that was nullified due to miscommunication and timing issues, highlighting the importance of cohesive management.

  "If Jeannie would have been consulted at that point, she would have said, you got to wait till the CBA passes." — Ramona Shelburne [24:33]

• Anthony Davis Trade Saga: The tumultuous process surrounding AD's trade to the Lakers set the stage for the current Doncic acquisition, emphasizing the need for strategic coordination.

  "The AD trade was an absolute circus. It ruined the second half of that season." — Ramona Shelburne [21:13]

• LeBron James Pursuit by Warriors: An example of what not to do, where the Warriors failed to engage essential stakeholders, leading to a failed trade attempt.

  "They never went to any of the agents or players involved. No one got to say yes or no." — Ramona Shelburne [25:00]

Notable Quotes:

• Brian Windhorst on the importance of coordinated actions:

  "There's no communication. There's no coordination." — Ramona Shelburne [24:33]

• Ramona Shelburne on the necessity of following historical lessons:

  "They end up in court against each other." — Brian Windhorst referencing past trade fallout [24:36]

4. Mavericks' Reaction to Trading Luka Doncic

The Dallas Mavericks faced significant backlash from their fan base following the controversial trade of Luka Doncic, one of the league's premier talents.

Key Points:

• Fan Protests: Mavericks fans expressed their outrage by staging protests, including placing a casket outside the arena—a symbolic gesture reflecting their grief over losing Doncic.

  "People brought a casket in front of the arena. That was incredible." — Tim Bontemps [36:35]

• Media Reception: The trade was met with widespread criticism, questioning the Mavericks' decision to trade a player of Doncic's caliber for what many perceive as insufficient return.

  "This trade is defining his career because it ain't a trade that's going to just kind of float away." — Tim Bontemps [48:06]

• Trade Value Debate: Experts debate whether the Mavericks maximized their return, with many arguing that trading Doncic, a generational talent, was a strategic misstep.

  "You need to maximize the return and you can't do that talking to one team." — Zach Lowe [39:07]

Notable Quotes:

• Zach Lowe criticizes the Mavericks' approach:

  "You have to maximize the return and you can't do that talking to one team." [39:07]

• Tim Bontemps underscores the trade's potential impact on his career:

  "This trade is defining his career because it ain't a trade that's going to just kind of float away." [48:06]

5. Future Implications and Concluding Thoughts

The episode concludes with an exploration of the potential long-term effects of these trades on the teams involved and the broader NBA landscape.

Key Points:

• Lakers' Future: With Luka Doncic joining the Lakers, expectations are high for championship contention. However, questions remain about integrating Doncic with existing stars like Anthony Davis and LeBron James.

  "The center of the Lakers universe has shifted and it needed to. It's a beautiful moment if you're going to shift it to a guy who's potentially a top 75, not top 75, all-time player." — Brian Windhorst [29:14]

• Mavericks' Rebuilding: The Mavericks are now tasked with restructuring their roster, focusing on developing remaining talents and acquiring new assets to build around future stars.

  "They've got one guy who can dribble on the roster. They got to get more guards this week." — Tim Bontemps [44:37]

• League Dynamics: These trades signify a shift in power dynamics within the NBA, with traditional powerhouse teams like the Lakers continuing to innovate their strategies for assembling star-studded rosters.

  "Jeannie Buss has a show coming out on Netflix, which is not her, but it's based on her. It's coming out the middle of this month as well." — Ramona Shelburne [27:33]

Notable Quotes:

• Brian Windhorst on the Lakers' transition:

  "This is a transition. The center of the Lakers universe has shifted." [29:14]

• Ramona Shelburne on the anticipation surrounding Doncic's performance:

  "He started taking that part of being an NBA basketball player very seriously because he saw it was affecting his ability to win and his ability to break through." [32:05]

---

Conclusion

This episode of The Hoop Collective provides an in-depth analysis of pivotal NBA trades, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the strategic maneuvers shaping the league. From the Spurs and Bulls' three-way trade to the Mavericks' controversial decision to part ways with Luka Doncic and the Lakers' historic acquisition of a superstar, Windhorst and his co-hosts deliver a comprehensive exploration of current NBA dynamics. Ramona Shelburne's contributions further enrich the discussion, bridging past lessons with present-day strategies to forecast the future trajectory of these storied franchises.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Foreign welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast.

[Tim MacMahon]

Presented by State Farm.

[Brian Windhorst]

We talk about the NBA, which we're.

[Tim MacMahon]

Doing on Sunday evening. Joining us from the center in Philadelphia.

[Brian Windhorst]

Where he watched the Celtics come back from 26 points down to beat the 76ers on Sunday afternoon is Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello, everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

Didn't sleep last night? I don't think he slept at sleep.

[Tim Bontemps]

Eventually, but wasn't at night.

[Tim MacMahon]

Joining us from Cleveland, Ohio, where we.

[Brian Windhorst]

Had an interesting day including talking to Nico Harrison and Jason Kidd about the Luka Doncic trade. And then watching a highly entertaining basketball game between the Mavs and the Cavs.

[Tim MacMahon]

Where The Cavs scored 91 points in.

[Brian Windhorst]

The first half and won by 40. It's Ban McMahon.

[Zach Lowe]

Howdy partners. Band sleep update. Got about two hours last night. Dozed for about 20 minutes. Missed the beginning of the third quarter of this because you were sleeping. Looks like it's going to be a Grizzlies win. No, the this night game. Grizzlies went over the Bucks here. That's about to wrap up.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just glad to see Jaren Jackson back on the court after he had some blood coming out of his face. That was a win.

[Zach Lowe]

Dozed off at halftime of that thing? No, I was. So obviously I'm writing off of the.

[Brian Windhorst]

You didn't watch me do the halftime show.

[Zach Lowe]

That's probably what put me to sleep. I so sad. The Hey, I was here for C's corner. I met. I met old Moondog and Moondog. What? Hold on a second, people. This moond dog gave me a nice little gift bag you can see on YouTube here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let them know.

[Zach Lowe]

Got me. Let them know. Got me on sweet little Moond dog NBA Jam T shirt. Okay, Little. There's a dog.

[Tim MacMahon]

That's Moondog and Sir Cece.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, I didn't know who the other fellow was.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Cavs. The Cavs for some reason have two mascots.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, Mog Cast corner.

[Tim Bontemps]

Cast Corner is. There's no time for only one mascot.

[Zach Lowe]

There's a dog tag, this little wrist. Little wristband. Then a let them know postcard that says I'll read it to you. Howdy.

[Tim Bontemps]

Because no one can read it.

[Zach Lowe]

Shut up, Bon Temps. Oh, it should have said that, but it's implied if you listen. Howdy, partner. Welcome to my second favorite Hoop collective podcaster, parenthesis. We are all windy guys here in Northeast Ohio. Keep up the great content. But Moondog, so by process of elimination, you're dead last, Bontemp. So stop interrupting. Shut your yap for one freaking podcast. That's straight from Moondog, baby. I've.

[Brian Windhorst]

I've said for years that he's the best dog in the league. All right, we're going to go from dogs to foxes. Hey, did you. Did you like that?

[Zach Lowe]

That's why you're his favorite podcaster, Northeast Ohio.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, we got a big three way trade that happened on Sunday that briefly dulled the Doncic Anthony Davis trade.

[Zach Lowe]

Hey, speaking of always in last place, how about those Chicago Bulls coming in last in a. In the Spurs Kings deal again?

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I was talking to an executive today, and this is before the trade, and he's like, he was a Western Conference executive and he was complaining about how hard the west is becoming, and he's like, you know, you look at the Eastern Conference, the Bulls traded away, you know, they. Well, they, you know, let DeRozan walk in free agency, but I guess they traded him and, and they traded away DeRozan and Alex Caruso, and they're in the exact same place. They're in the exact same place that they were. So anyway, the part of this trade. So Dearon Fox goes to San Antonio, which from the moment that it was clear that the Kings were willing to trade him, that was the favorite thing to happen. We'll discuss that at length. Zach Levine, after being on the trade block essentially for the last year and a half, or, you know, year plus, is freed. Eight years after he signed a. An offer sheet with Sacramento, Vivek Renad finally gets his man with two years and about 100 million left on his contract after that issue.

[Zach Lowe]

Got to give Vlad credit for finally getting his guy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, Vladi is long gone. You mean Vive.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, no, Vladis had a great run. He was right about Luca, apparently, you know.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right, right.

[Tim MacMahon]

That's true.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, so you're right. It's been a great. It's been a great couple of days for Vladi, for the Vladi legacy as an executive. And the Bulls get, I guess, Kevin Herder and a couple of, I guess, Trey Jones.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, I mean, Trey Jones is a decent backup point guard. Zach Collins was the, Was Salary filler and was the worst contract on the Spurs. The most important thing the Bulls got was their pick back.

[Tim MacMahon]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

So now they Bulls, except the Bulls.

[Tim Bontemps]

Had a pick out that was top 10 protected and then top 8 protected twice. This team very easily could have just kept that pick. It shouldn't be treated as some like grand gesture that the Bulls got this pick back.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, they traded their best player and got the pick back.

[Tim MacMahon]

So there.

[Brian Windhorst]

So it's a tanking move.

[Zach Lowe]

Absolutely.

[Brian Windhorst]

They don't have to tank anymore.

[Tim Bontemps]

But they already were too bad. They already were bad enough that they were going to keep the pick anyway.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree.

[Tim Bontemps]

And by the way, it's a. This, we should remind people this pick was sent to San Antonio when they signed DeMar DeRozan a few years ago, by the way, when they signed DeMar DeRozan for about a gajillion dollars more than anybody else was trying to pay him at the time. And so they did that.

[Brian Windhorst]

That didn't turn out to be a bad contract though.

[Tim Bontemps]

It wasn't a good transaction. And then on top of that, as you mentioned McMahon this summer they trade DeMaros into Sacramento and they get left out of all the good stuff in the trade. One of the things they get is a 2028 second round pick from the Sacramento Kings in the deal. Well, guess what? In this trade where they send Zach Levine to the Kings, what goes back to The Kings, their 2028 second round pick.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

So again, just wonderful asset management by Arturis Carnishvas.

[Tim MacMahon]

All of the DeRozan sign and trades were coming undone.

[Brian Windhorst]

They're coming undone.

[Tim Bontemps]

So it's just truly, just truly staggering mismanagement.

[Zach Lowe]

The Bulls have wrapped up the demar derozan business now it's official. Put a bow on that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, they've offloaded it to Sacramento where the DeRozan Levine pairing bore no fruit in Chicago. So let's take them older in Sacramento.

[Tim Bontemps]

Just as a reminder, the Bulls have traded Zach Levine, DeMar DeRozan and Alex Caruso and have gotten back their own first round pick that they traded in.

[Brian Windhorst]

Another they were going to get this year anyway. They were going to.

[Tim Bontemps]

That they were going to get because it was already top 10 protected and they're in the top 10 and they got Josh Giddy. That's the whole return from all three players.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, we've talked enough about the Bulls. Let's talk about the two teams that actually are trying to get better.

[Brian Windhorst]

Now, the reaction from the league at least, you know, I haven't pulled all.

[Tim MacMahon]

29, 28 other teams.

[Brian Windhorst]

But the reaction from the league is my God, these Spurs got De'Aaron Fox didn't have to give up Stefan Castle.

[Zach Lowe]

And look, oh, there was no way. No way.

[Brian Windhorst]

The thing is, I'm not sure how much the Kings really tried to get him because Castle isn't a great shooter.

[Tim Bontemps]

So we're never giving up Safa Castle in the chance. Move on from that.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm confident that the Kings came in and said we want Castle. And the spurs were like, absolutely.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, but forget about that. Let's not move on from that.

[Tim MacMahon]

They didn't give up Castle. They didn't give up Devin Vassell.

[Brian Windhorst]

They didn't even give up Keon Johnson.

[Tim Bontemps]

Who Johnson's on the nets.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, you're right. They didn't go up Heldon Johnson who is a high quality reserve. But still he's not.

[Tim Bontemps]

But that's fine.

[Zach Lowe]

He's a quality reserve player. Yes he is. They didn't. Wendy's point is they didn't. As far like Trey Jones I think is a quality backup point guard, but he wasn't going to be playing on this team that has Chris Paul and Darren Fox. Now they didn't give up any of their young rotation players, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

And they gave up Zach Collins who's.

[Tim MacMahon]

Had the worst contract on the roster as you said.

[Brian Windhorst]

Now it looks like they gave up four first round picks, but they actually didn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

They gave up three first round picks and one of them is a fake pick.

[Zach Lowe]

No, they gave up four total but one's a fake pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right? So they gave up Charlotte's pick this.

[Tim Bontemps]

Year, but oh, cause we're counting the Bulls pick, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

It's lottery protected and if it doesn't convey which it will not, cause Charlotte is the third worst team in the league, it turns into two second round picks. So they were never getting a first round pick. So it looks like four firsts, but now it's all the way down to three.

[Tim MacMahon]

One of them is the Bulls pick which we already said was likely not.

[Brian Windhorst]

Going to convey this year. So they give up their 2027 pick which with the Aaron Fox and Victor.

[Tim MacMahon]

Wembanyama and two more years, I don't.

[Brian Windhorst]

Think this 2027 spurs pick is going to be that good. And the only, you know, sort of plus looking pick that they gave up.

[Tim MacMahon]

Is the Minnesota Timberwolves 2031 pick which the only reason that's considered a good.

[Brian Windhorst]

Pick is because we don't know what the Wolves are going to be in 2031. And they might be terrible. They might still be good. The best pick that the spurs had for this year is the Atlanta Hawks. Unprotected pick, which.

[Zach Lowe]

Or even their own this year.

[Brian Windhorst]

True.

[Tim MacMahon]

Even their own this year.

[Zach Lowe]

Those two are the picks that are, yeah, the most immediate value.

[Brian Windhorst]

They get the Aaron Fox for no, you know, no key rotation player. And yeah, they gave up some picks, but not their good picks.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, yeah, this is because the Bulls got involved and did them a huge favor by giving the Kings a very good player in the deal. So the Kings, I think, came out.

[Brian Windhorst]

Of this very good players they've been.

[Tim MacMahon]

Trying to give away for 15 months.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, yes, I. Okay, listen, I agree with that. Zach Levine. If you look at Zach Levine and De'Aaron Fox's numbers, they're not too dissimilar a player. So if you're the Kings and you come out of this with two first round picks, five second round picks, and a guy in Zach Levine who is a guy who this year is averaging 24 points and 51% shooting and 45% from three, like, I'm not trying to say the Kings are going to go win the title, but given they had no leverage in this situation and they're sitting here with a guy they have to trade to one place, I think that's a pretty decent return. And again, the fact that the Kings can come out of this with Zach LaVine and the Bulls get themselves involved to get their pick back that they didn't need to do, I think that helped the spurs get this done without having to give up more stuff in the deal.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I'm going to tell you guys, the San Antonio spurs are freaking thrilled.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought this was a great trade for them.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's a great trade.

[Zach Lowe]

They gotta trade or they gotta pay Fox. But you know what? You have the luxury of being able to pay Fox when you're still gonna have time left. On Victor's rookie contract, they still got a ton of picks coming, almost all of their own. I think they're only out one of their own picks still. A couple from the Hawk from. From the Hawks. By the way, the Kings didn't get back their own 2031 swap rights.

[Tim Bontemps]

Swap. Yeah, I was surprised by that.

[Zach Lowe]

They still have 2030 swap rights on either Maz or Wolves, and frankly, those math swap rights are more valuable today than they were a couple days ago. Yeah, I. They gave up, you know, a decent, you know, they gave up quantity, some quantity in draft picks, but they didn't give up high quality risk in the Draft picks.

[Tim Bontemps]

They gave up one. I mean, that Minnesota picks a pretty high value.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, that, I guess potentially that was a good.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was a good win for Sacramento. But when you look like a aggregate, when you look at the aggregate of what the spurs had, the fact that they come out of this year's draft with the Atlanta pick, to keep the Atlanta swap, to keep the second Atlanta pick like that, that's a good win for the spurs and look well.

[Zach Lowe]

And rotation wise, they plug in De'Aaron Fox, who's obviously going to start for a backup point guard. And that's because Collins was kind of a fringe rotation guy at this point anyway.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean, I have concerns about this Dear and Fox contract. I don't think by the end of it it's going to be a great deal. I am not sure that I would have been going all in to have him be one of the cornerstones of my team of Victor Wembanyama.

[Brian Windhorst]

And they didn't go all in.

[Tim Bontemps]

Correct. I'm just. Look, I like the. Obviously the price they got him at is a good price, for sure. Like, you do this trade if you're them for sure, and it makes it more palatable that they're going to end up paying him a deal that I think in the end is not going to look great this summer because they did keep so much of this other stuff in the deal. I also do think though that given the situation they were in, I think the Kings came out pretty good.

[Zach Lowe]

I thought they did fine. I thought they did fine. They got decent quantity and picks, you know, including a bushel of second rounders, including the Charlotte ones that are essentially.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, they got two first five seconds in. Zach Levine for De'Aaron Fox. That's. That's a good return given the fact that they are one place for the guy to go.

[Zach Lowe]

And Zach Levine, like, obviously there's some durability concerns, but dude, Levine's having a phenomenal year.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree. But he doesn't drive winning.

[Zach Lowe]

That's fair.

[Tim Bontemps]

De'Aaron Fox has not driven winning either, guys.

[Brian Windhorst]

Fair.

[Tim MacMahon]

That's fair. That's.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, that's fair. De'Aaron Fox and Zach Levine are pretty comparable players. I think the Kings came out of this pretty good. Not great, but pretty good. Especially given the situation they were in. And look, De'Aaron Fox is now being celebrated as a huge, massive piece.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I'll tell you, a ton of.

[Tim Bontemps]

Pressure on De'Aaron Fox now. Like, he's gotta be, he's gotta be a guy that's driving winning there.

[Brian Windhorst]

I, I think when you, I think he's going to have way more space to operate than he's ever had before because the way Victor stretches the floor and I think he could be a really good fit there. I don't know if he should be this.

[Tim MacMahon]

I don't know if he's the second.

[Brian Windhorst]

Best player on a championship level team. That's the question. And they're going to pay him like one. That's a fair.

[Tim Bontemps]

The guy has never. The guys made the playoffs once. So again, okay, I'm just saying like.

[Zach Lowe]

There'S some, they, he, there were some circumstances involved in the fact.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't disagree but Everybody's talking about De'Aaron Fox like he's a superstar. The guy's made one all star. The guys made one all star team and he's a sub 35 three point.

[Zach Lowe]

Shooter who averages 27 seven on decent efficiency. And frankly by the time he's into the midway through that contract, I don't think he'll be their second best player. I think Stefan Castle is going to end up being their second best player.

[Brian Windhorst]

And get somebody else because they're going to have tradable contracts and more picks.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, and that's that to me is the big takeaway is that their, their juiciest assets, especially in the short term are still available. And so that's where I think whatever, whatever questions I have about Fox, it's definitely a big win for them because they kept most of their powder. And again, like I just keep going back to the Bulls. The Bulls get involved here, really help the spurs out and I don't really see what the point was.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well that's a good point. Now I will say this talked to one guy today who said listen, this.

[Tim MacMahon]

Is a Western Conference guy.

[Brian Windhorst]

He goes, thank God that the spurs didn't get Luca because they could have put together a great package and Luca and Wemby would have been devastated. So. And that was never going to happen. And we're going to talk about that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, they still could.

[Zach Lowe]

We are absolutely going to get into that. We can table that discussion for now, but we're going to that we're going.

[Brian Windhorst]

To talk to Ramona Shelburne about the Lakers and we'll be right back.

[Zach Lowe]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[Brian Windhorst]

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Whether it's game night, on the way to a concert, or kicking back with your crew, unleash your senses with Nerds Gummy Clusters. All right, right now let's check out today's magic moments brought to you by State Farm. Joining us from just across the mountain range, I don't know what's the proper through the pass.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Santa Monica Mountains. Yeah. Over this Pelovida pass.

[Brian Windhorst]

Over the through the pass in the San Fernando Valley, our favorite valley girl, Ramona Shelburne.

[Ramona Shelburne]

I always have to do the like, you know.

[Brian Windhorst]

And yeah. So Ramona, this has been a quite a 24 hours in Los Angeles Lakers basketball.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, there's just this incredible history of players coming to the Lakers mid career, whether it's Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, LeBron James, Pau Gasol, Elgin Baylor, and now Luka Doncic. And it's an absolutely. So it's historic. I don't know how to. I don't know if it'll end up like that with a statue outside crypto. But it's a continuation of history and it's one of the reasons why there's Lakers exceptionalism in the world because the Lakers do seem to be able to pull this off over the decades.

[Ramona Shelburne]

You know how fans on Twitter, whenever there's a great young player, Laker fans like to take their face and put a Laker jersey on them and everybody else hates them for it. Right. Like, Victor comes into the league and they put a Laker jersey on him, and Luka comes into, like, put a Laker. How are we going to get Luka? How are we going to. Right. And I laugh. And yet.

[Brian Windhorst]

And yet.

[Ramona Shelburne]

And yet they pull it off. They do it like, this is not a deal that they necessarily sought out. Even this is. It came to them. Rob Pelinka and Nico Harrison had coffee across the street from the. From the game the other. A couple of weeks ago in Dallas, and Nico Harrison threw it out there as a. Hey, would you ever do this? And Rob kind of thought he was kidding at first, but then he wasn't kidding.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, we would trade for Luca. Thank you.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think it's, you know, they had to get there, obviously, and they had to keep it quiet. And I think that's. That's one part I want to talk about a lot, is how everybody kept it quiet and also why everybody kept it quiet, because I think there is a lot of history here that we have to go back through in terms of fail of trades that happened and didn't happen and lessons that everybody involved learned from those traits. Let's start with Chris Paul in 2011. Okay, you and I go back. Chris Paul is traded to the Lakers. It breaks right as the board of governors is meeting in New York to ratify a CBA which is intended to stop exactly this kind of a situation. Jeannie Buss is the Lakers representative because her father was having surgery at the time. He had a cancer diagnosis. He was having a surgery. He was in the hospital. Jim Buss, Mitch Kupchak are getting this trade together. There's a trade call. It got that far. And they. The details start to leak out. And every owner in New York who had a voice and a means to use it was livid, furious, and went straight to David Stern Beeline and tried to break this up. And I've talked to Jeanne at length about this over the years of how timing and when the leak came out and when people knew factored into that trade being nullified by David Stern. And a lot of this was just her and her brother were not on the same page. They were not communicating. They were not in sync and in tandem strategically. And I think that's how trades like this, of this magnitude get done. Nobody saw that Chris Paul trade coming. Right. Do you remember where you were when you saw that?

[Brian Windhorst]

I do.

[Tim MacMahon]

I was in Miami.

[Brian Windhorst]

And remember, Chris. Chris was the one. He came out of the lockout and asked for the trade. So he asked for the trade.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, and by the way, it wasn't really a good trade. I don't think they did necessarily did a better trade with the Clippers, but it was not a good trade.

[Ramona Shelburne]

No.

[Brian Windhorst]

For New Orleans.

[Ramona Shelburne]

But. But it gets, you know. Okay, so that's. That's trade number one. Trade number two is when they trade for AD the first time. It was an absolute circus. It ruined the second half of that season. All those guys were trying to play, and they heard their name in trade talk.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. They didn't actually make the trade during the season, but he was dancing around it. Yeah, yeah.

[Ramona Shelburne]

And. And it ruined Anthony Davis's exit from New Orleans. Remember, they sat him at the end there, and he wore the.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's all, folks. Yeah, that's all, folks.

[Tim MacMahon]

Which it was.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, it was. Yeah, you know, it was all.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah, it was all. And, you know, all those guys on the team, Brandon Ingram, Lonzo Ball, everybody who ended up being in those. In. Those in that trade heard their name and heard Laker fans all over them. And I remember Kobe Bryant at one point stepped into the fray and said, hey, listen, this is for Anthony Davis. You got to get over yourself. Like, don't take the sopra. But this went on for months, and Magic Johnson was at the center of it. And then when he abruptly resigned, Robin. Yeah. Rob Polinka ends up making this trade right in over the summer, and people forget this part. But it was after they hired Frank Vogel to be their head coach. Remember that? He had a press conference, and they hadn't done the AD Training.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, the thing about the Vogel press conference was Magic had come on to first take, and that's right. Called Rob. I think he called him a backstabber. Yeah, something like that. And here they're introducing Frank Vogel as head coach. And, you know, I remember, like, I think it was McMenamin who asked the question. Frank, congratulations on the job. Welcome to Los Angeles. Rob, what about being called a backstabber? I seriously think the question went like that.

[Ramona Shelburne]

I think at one point, a couple of us did ask Frank a question, but it was at least 10, 15 questions in, you know, hey, Coach, there's this amazing moment. Think of this young roster.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's this amazing moment in that interview with Stephen A. Where I think Stephen A. Asks him, was there anybody else who you're accusing of backstabbing you in the Laker organization? And Magic goes, no, just Rob. It's just like this amazing, amazing moment. Oh, my God.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah. And also not to go all the way down the Laker rabbit hole. But this is following a dinner where, you know, Magic had abruptly resigned. And then there was a dinner between Magic, Jeanie Buss, and Lon Rosen, who was Magic's longtime agent. He also works with the Dodgers now. And I think Linda Rambis was there as well. Maybe Kurt was there. And they had a dinner, and they basically said, hey, is there anything else we need to know? Because, like, when Magic stepped down, when you step down, there were some stories that came out, and if you. You gotta say it, say it now. Speak your piece. And he goes, nope, I'm good. And then a week or two later, he went on first take and said all that. So that was not to go all the way down, but the rabbit hole. But it is instructive, because when you get to a trade of this magnitude, one which gets nullified by the commissioner because they don't have their act together in terms of when it's going to be completed and how that's going to be. Like. If Jeannie would have been consulted at that point, she would have said, you got to wait till the CBA passes and everyone's out of New York. Like, hold it a day. You got it. You got to hold this back. But there's no communication. There's no coordination. And so, I mean, they ended up.

[Brian Windhorst]

In court against each other.

[Tim MacMahon]

And Jim.

[Brian Windhorst]

So it's.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah, you know, not that shocking. Okay, so then there's that. And then the next one is the trade, where. Anthony, it's. It was a circus. It was an absolute circus. Now, let's also go to trade number three, which is something you and I have talked about a lot on this pod and continues to be relevant now, especially in light of this trade, which is the wild pursuit of LeBron James by the Golden State warriors last year, where owner to owner, conversations between Joe Lakob and Jeannie Bus, there's some level of interest on both sides. And instead of hashing out the details of a trade and kind of getting a trade package and going to LeBron late, they go to Rich Paul and said, is this something LJ Would want to do? And Rich says, no, and the trade dies on the vine there. Even though, from what I understand, LeBron had had conversations with other people. Draymond Green, there's a prominent businessman in Silicon Valley, had been involved there, and I think there was some indication that he was at least intrigued by this. And they shut it down.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, the warriors don't make the call unless they think LeBron's going to. At the time, LeBron did not have a no trade clause. He does now. That's correct. That's a different.

[Ramona Shelburne]

So what is different about this trade? They never went to any of the agents or players involved. No one got to say yes or no. No one got any feedback. Because if you get anybody else know, if you let anyone else involved, the trade falls apart. The trade can be said no. If they go to Luka Doncic and says, hey, you want to go to the. Be traded to the Lakers? I mean, I don't know what he says. I think he's, if you're going to trade me, I guess this is a good spot. But, you know, I don't think he wanted to be traded from Dallas. And this is where you are if you go to. If you go to Rich Paul and Anthony Davis. Hey, how does LeBron. How do LeBron and AD feel about this trade? Does this get out of the starting blocks? I don't think so. And so I think the lessons learned from all of these situations, all of these trades that did happen or didn't happen, are how we get to where Nico Harrison, Rob Pelinka, Patrick Dumont and Jeannie Buss are a part of the very small. I, I guess those four would be a square, but I think there was a circle. There was probably a few others that were privy to these talks, but it was. Wasn't a large circle at all. And it held for several weeks as these conversations were taking place.

[Brian Windhorst]

Remarkable. Remarkable on a lot of fronts. The thing I would say is big thing on this pod is actions over words. And the action here, Anthony Davis waves his trade kicker $6 million. That action indicates to me he approves the trade. He approves of the trade. He's cool with it. You know, on some level, maybe he's not thrilled to be leaving la where he's built a life and he's got a family.

[Ramona Shelburne]

He's got a show coming out later this month.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, I'm really interested in that show. It's like a redux of the Austin Kutcher punk show.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah. And it's funny because on social media last night everyone was like, wait, are we sure this isn't just part of the show?

[Brian Windhorst]

Good. That's good.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Where he jumps out and says, surprise.

[Brian Windhorst]

Because they literally, they literally just started the, the promotion for it.

[Zach Lowe]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like it's.

[Ramona Shelburne]

And by the way, Jeanie Buss has a show coming out on Netflix, which is. It's not her, but it's based on her. Okay. And I mean, that's coming out the middle of this month as well. I think the premiere is on February 13th. I mean, this. Like, it is. You talk about life imitating art. Oh, my gosh.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right? So. And then you've got LeBron. McManaman reported today that LeBron, like, he's like, don't call. I'm not, you know, I'm not waving my no trade clause, so don't call.

[Ramona Shelburne]

So, okay, sure. Nobody's gonna call then. Sure. Okay, well.

[Brian Windhorst]

But that action, it's an action. Yeah. Leads me to believe that he's cool with this. Like, again, I'm not saying he's turning handsprings and, like, saying, this is perfect, exactly what I've always dreamed of. But, you know, if he was upset, I'm not sure that he'd be dissuading people. So, like, you know, actions over words, whatever that may get said. So from the Lakers perspective, Ramona, this is a, this is kind of obvious, but it's a key moment. Everything they've done since 2018 has been. Has been, you know, set on number 23. It's all been about LeBron, and rightfully so.

[Tim MacMahon]

Even.

[Brian Windhorst]

Even in these later couple years where, you know, they've theoretically built the team more around AD that's not the case. LeBron is the lead dog, and that's no longer true.

[Tim MacMahon]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, now, number 77, all moves are about.

[Tim MacMahon]

And that's, that's what the Lakers released today.

[Brian Windhorst]

Rob Pelinka's comments essentially said this. You know, we're, you know, we're going to put a roster around him. We're going to, you know, build around him. LeBron's name wasn't in the release. Not that it would have to be, but, you know, sometimes you see that, you know, we'll build around. So, like, and that doesn't mean LeBron's done, like, you know, he's. He just had a triple double, just had a brilliant game at the Garden. And, like, and I think, I don't think the roster is in good shape right now, but he can get there, especially if you give them the rest of this week and then next summer. But, like, this is, this is a transition. Like, the center of the Lakers universe has shifted and it needed to, like, it's not controversial. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a great, It's a beautiful moment. If you're going to shift it, shift it to a guy who's potentially a, you know, a top 75, you know, not top 75. All time player. So, I mean, that. But that's. That's happened. This is now Luka Doncic, his team, right?

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah, it is. And I mean, it's. It's kind of. This is where we have to go back to Laker history again. All right? Kobe Bryant is winding down his career, and the Chris Paul trade was supposed to be that baton handoff. Okay, 2011, they trade for Chris Paul and that gets undone. Chris Paul was 25 at the time. He was going to be the successor to Kobe. That's what trade was.

[Brian Windhorst]

Who else is 25?

[Ramona Shelburne]

Luca.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Ramona Shelburne]

I mean, and these things are not coincidences. Who was Kobe's agent at the time of this trade? Rob Pelinka. Who was his Nike rep? Nico Harrison.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Ramona Shelburne]

They traveled the world together. And I think that trade didn't end up happening later on. They end up trading for Dwight Howard. I think that what the Lakers hope, what. What everybody in L. A has to hope now is that Luca has the same kind of wake up moment from this trade and all the bad stuff that's coming out about him and his conditioning, his habits, et cetera, from, you know, from Dallas and from those people who work closely with him there and has the same kind of wake up moment Jokic did a couple years ago. I think they had, they had. He was similarly play his way into shape. Used to have, like, back injuries, soft tissue injuries. He wasn't as reliable. And. And there was a particular series against the Portland Trailblazers where he ran out of gas like it was game seven. They had a back and forth series.

[Brian Windhorst]

He disputed it. He would say, I, I'm not out of shape. I did. I'm not running out of gas. But he did, you know, I mean, actions over words. He changes conditioning.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Oh, totally. And now he's one of the most incredible, incredibly conditioned athletes out there.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's not in as good a shape as he was like two, three years ago, but he's still obviously in a much better condition than he was at the start of his career.

[Ramona Shelburne]

That's right. And I think he. It's really more about. He started taking that part of being an NBA basketball player very seriously because he saw it was affecting his ability to win and his ability to break through. And he was. He was about the same age Luca is now. I think he was maybe even a little older. So this sometimes takes some time for people to really learn. Like, I mean, Kobe wasn't always a fitness fiend or a diet guy or probably LeBron wasn't either. I mean, Kobe used To talk about eating pizza and cheeseburgers and stuff earlier in his career. Like, you know, there time comes for us, all right, when we have to shape up. And I think maybe, maybe Luke is there, maybe not, but that's what the Lakers have to hope for.

[Tim MacMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

And like, look, I think the interesting thing, one of the big things that. So Nico Harrison had a press conference and I talked to McMahon about that, but today in Cleveland and he, he used some weird language about Luca, about Luca's contract. He's like, there was some, some details of Luca's contract. What that was code for is we didn't want to pay him 350. They were worried about paying him $70 million a year. And normally when you have a supermax player who's supermax eligible, you just want him to take the full contract.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

And you know, okay, if he's, if he gets injured because, you know, he, he gets a little older, then, you know, okay. But you know, the Lakers are, I assume, going to make that investment. I assume that, you know, this. It won't be as much money, by the way, because it won't be the supermax, but it's still going to be, you know, over 250 million. So I assume that the Lakers are going to be. Should be making that investment this summer. And I would hope. Well, I shouldn't say I hope, but I would assume that Luca is going to sign it. All right, we're out. We're out of time, Momo. But thank you for providing this history because I think it's important and I look forward to more of your coverage the rest of this week. As you know, as Luca puts on the uniform for the first time.

[Ramona Shelburne]

First domino. First domino. There may be more.

[Brian Windhorst]

It was a big one. It was a big one. All right, thanks, Momo. We'll talk to you soon.

[Ramona Shelburne]

Thanks, Brian.

[Zach Lowe]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, the Tims are back. Thanks to Ramona McMahon.

[Tim MacMahon]

You went to a press conference today.

[Brian Windhorst]

With Nico Harrison and Jason Kidd.

[Tim MacMahon]

They took questions.

[Brian Windhorst]

I respect Nico Harrison being in Cleveland and being in there and taking questions. The Lakers haven't yet. We'll see if they do. Your takeaways from that discussion?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's a tough spot because they just made a tremendously unpopular trade. I mean, there are people protesting in front of the American Airlines center in Dallas.

[Brian Windhorst]

People brought a casket. There was a casket in front of the arena.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was incredible.

[Brian Windhorst]

Incredible.

[Zach Lowe]

Like that. You could not have made a more unpopular trade. You know, the, the Mavericks fan base, you know, they're protesting right by the Dirk statue. They thought that there was going to be a Luca statue nearby one day. You know, you feel like, hey, we get 21 years from this guy. Luca wasn't gonna last 21 years. But you're hoping we. You get 15 good ones out of great ones out of him. And I get like, I get the Mavs fans just anger because this is a 25 year old generational talent. This is a like historic talent at 25 years old that you just traded. And you know, the, the criticism that I'm hearing around the league is more, not that they got out of the Luca business because there frankly is some understanding of the reasoning of that around the league. It's more so that they didn't maximize the return. But for the Mavs fans, it's just flat out, how could you possibly want to get out of the Luca business? We are fresh off watching this guy lead the league in scoring, averaging basically a triple double, and then lead this team to the finals. So it's going to be a tremendously unpopular trade. And Nico, I think, went up there uncomfortable and tried to kind of ease with humor. And the humor, I don't think it landed real well.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, act, I mean, talking about like going and having a laugh with Rob Pelinka and doing the trade is, is not A great look. And also the line he had that to end your story where he says, hey, look, we're looking at this win now and in the future. And by the future, I mean three or four years from now, not 10 years from now, but by 10 years from now we'll be buried and maybe we'll have buried ourselves. Yeah, you might have buried yourself by making this trade. Nico, like, I mean, it's just not, it's not a good look at all. And it just reflects on, it reflects badly on the process that went into the trade from start to finish, where whatever your opinion of the decision to trade Luka Doncic, at a minimum, if you're doing this trade with the Lakers, you got to get the two picks from the Lakers at a bare minimum.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

And to come out of this without the two picks, without having really done any, you know, canvassing of the value.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I mean, he didn't even, he was just straight. He's like, yeah, I negotiate with one team. He just flat out said it.

[Zach Lowe]

And, and you know, Nico's thing was they didn't want a circus, they didn't want a saga. They just wanted to get this done as quietly as possible, drop the bomb and move on. Of course, you're getting a circus and you're getting a saga.

[Tim Bontemps]

If you're going to trade Luca, if you're going to do this, you have to do it in 18 months after he's on the supermax and he's on a five year extension and you can trade him wherever you want.

[Zach Lowe]

Or even if you do it now, even if you do it now, this is, you know, when I talk to people around the league again, there was a lot of, there, there were several people who were like, hey, you know, I get wanting to get out of Luca business. You know, a team knows their player better than anybody else and frankly, like the concerns about the conditioning, all stuff, this, none of that stuff is new. That's, you know, been a thing. It's, it's just part of the deal. So is the historic production, by the way. But again, there's understanding of that, but it's. You've got to maximize the return and you can't do that talking to one team. Now the Maverick's explanation is they were going to go get Anthony Davis, they were going to go get an all NBA player who's also an all defensive player who they feel like fits their time frame. And we'll get into the time frame here in a little bit because that's a very interesting statement. But again like so you get the, you get the Lakers best offer and at that point you got to shop it. Call. Hey, the Houston Rockets certainly aren't motivated to do anything. They've made that very clear. They also didn't think Luka Doncic was going to be available. I, I think if you call Houston, hey, can, you know what if you asked for Amin Thompson and, and four picks, maybe it's out parents and Goon and four picks, a young all star and four picks, you could call San Antonio with all the, look what they gave up for Fox. You're probably getting a lot more than that for Luca, you know. Hey, Utah, you're desperate to find a star. You've got a ton of picks. Let's talk. There's. You gotta call it. Hey, Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City is the one I think would, would not have engaged, but make them tell you no.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think Bon temps. What he said is very true though. Like when they, when the, when the Trailblazers did the Lillard trade, Lillard didn't want to go to, I mean it wasn't like he was against Milwaukee. He wanted to go to Miami, you know. Yeah, but because it was under long term contract, he didn't have.

[Tim Bontemps]

Same with Jonathan Mitchell, same with Rudy Gobert. Again, if you have years on the deal, you have the ability like Utah isn't trading for Luka Doncic with a year and a half left on his deal. If he's got five years left on his deal, then anybody's in play. You got the Brooklyn Nets with 10,000 draft picks, but Houston might be in.

[Zach Lowe]

Play, San Antonio might with their situation.

[Tim Bontemps]

I understand that, McMahon, but the point is if you're going to do this, the proper way to do it is to sign them to the extension, have him on the long term contract and then do it. If you're doing it now and the guy's got a year and a half left on his deal and it gets out that you're shopping them around, then it becomes the De'Aaron Fox situation becomes I'm only going to go to X place and then your, your value gets driven down even further. So if you're going to do it this way now, you kind of have to identify a team or two, talk to them, not talk to anybody else and do it. The problem is doing it at all because this is not the time to do it. And trading for a guy six years older is not the guy to be doing it for.

[Zach Lowe]

And, and I have actually had like I had a, a GM in the West Tell me basically, hey, there's a credible case to be made that the Mavericks did get better right now, you know, and again, a lot of that's based on Lucas relative struggles this season, what's going to look like when he gets back, you know, their defensive issues. He said they can credibly make a case they got better right now, but they can't make a case that they maximize the return. And they absolutely shortened the window. And again, the fear of this, the fear of the supermax was a massive factor. Just like the fear of. Of cat supermax kicking. It was a massive factor in him getting shipped to New York.

[Tim Bontemps]

But this is where this is so dumb. And this is where this, this line of thinking from them is frankly, patently insane. If they had signed Luka Dodges to the supermax, which I think my reporting. Think your reporting is that Luka was preparing to sign the thing.

[Zach Lowe]

This, that was, that was the anticipation for certain on his.

[Tim Bontemps]

They had Luka Doncic signed to a supermax. His trade value wasn't going down.

[Zach Lowe]

I agree with that. They were. They were terrified of a supermax commitment. They were terrified of being stuck like Philly with Embiid right now with a.

[Tim Bontemps]

But that's.

[Zach Lowe]

But I'm just telling you that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I understand, but that's not a. That' not a rational argument. The guy's 25.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm just.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm 35.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm expl. Well, he's 25. And.

[Tim Bontemps]

But McMahon, you and I both know this isn't Joel Emed.

[Zach Lowe]

He doesn't have the chronic. He doesn't have the chronic knee issues. The calf is very concerning. The conditioning is very concerning. Again, you're talk. I personally, I could not have pulled the trigger on trading that type of talent before he hits the prime years. I, I couldn't have done it. I'm explaining to you what their thought process was.

[Tim MacMahon]

Let me ask you this.

[Brian Windhorst]

What do the Mavericks do now?

[Zach Lowe]

I certainly don't think that Nico Harrison left his cell phone charger at home.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, I mean, they've got one guy who can dribble on the roster. They got to get more guards this week.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, they. They. Well, two Dinwiddie is a. Is the second. I mean, we can talk about.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's a guy on a minimum we can do.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, we can talk about Dante X and Jaden Hardy, but I hear you. I was actually shocked. I was talking to another general manager today and they made the statement and it was like confidently that Kyrie right now is a better player. Than Luca. And that took. I was taken aback by that. And again, I. I think Kyrie is an incredible talent, but Luca just led.

[Brian Windhorst]

The league, and I do not believe that.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, Luca just led the league in scoring and basically averaged a triple double. I mean. Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

The idea that Kyrie's a better player than him is also patently insane.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

But insane things I love said about this trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

Bot temps is in prime form right now.

[Zach Lowe]

Bon Temps is the patent office over here. The USWB Patent office. Listen, but no, you know, yeah, Kyrie's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Had a great year. I thought he was the biggest snub on the all star teams in either conference. Not making it. I know they're, you know, for other. I thought he should have clearly been the. The first guard or second guard that didn't start on the team. But he's not better than Luca and.

[Tim MacMahon]

We'Ll see what Kyrie says.

[Brian Windhorst]

He didn't play today, so I guess he didn't speak to the media, but.

[Zach Lowe]

Obviously he didn't speak to the media today. And again, I'm not making a big thing out of that. He didn't play. It's. It's the norm for a guy who doesn't play not to speak to the media. This was not a normal situation.

[Brian Windhorst]

True.

[Zach Lowe]

But. But he didn't speak to the media. And certainly, like, listen, we. He. He'll talk in Philly Bond Timps will be there, I'm sure, just pelting them. So I'm curious to. I like, I.

[Tim MacMahon]

Listen, Kyrie has been nothing but a.

[Brian Windhorst]

Pro with the media for the last.

[Zach Lowe]

No, Kyrie's been phenomenal ever since. Again. I'll say it again. Ever since he's been to Dallas, like, he's been phenomenal as a leader for that team. He hasn't got to deal with the locker room.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not just. I'm not taking a position against anything here, but when the Mavericks did the Kyrie Irving trade, I thought it was a mistake.

[Zach Lowe]

I did, too, and it has not been.

[Brian Windhorst]

I told Nico as much to his face, and Nico had a vision and knew the. Knew the pieces, you know, had a relationship with Kyrie and made an educated gamble, and it has hit huge. And I have told Nico to his face, as I'm sure other people have. You got it right.

[Tim MacMahon]

You made a. You made a.

[Brian Windhorst]

You made it. You made a calculated risk there, and it paid off. So I have to acknowledge. I have to acknowledge that he's done this before.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And I didn't love. And again, if we're being real honest. Our opinions are heavily influenced by the people who evaluate talent for a living, like the scouts, the executives that we're talking to. The PJ Washington trade was not well received throughout the league.

[Tim Bontemps]

The guy was going to trade two first round picks for Kyle Kuzma. His judgment in value assessment in trades has been poor.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, the PJ Washington. The PJ Washington deal didn't get great immediate feedback. Neither did the game Daniel Gaffer deal. Both those guys played significant roles in a finals run.

[Tim Bontemps]

Correct.

[Zach Lowe]

This is a hell of a heat check, though, boys.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean, this is going to define his career. There's a chance he's fired in the next 12 to 18 months and it goes down as one of the worst trades in the history of the league. There is a chance where him shorting Luca like we talked about on the emergency pod works out and he looks like some level of genius for doing it. And it'll be seen as a thing. But one way or the other, this trade is defining his career because it ain't a trade that's going to just kind of float away. Either it's going to lead to great things or it's going to lead to infamy. A or B.

[Brian Windhorst]

I couldn't have put it better myself. All right, we got a lot to save up our energy with Bontemps. Got to get back to New York and McMahon and I got to go to bed. Actually, I'm going to meet Bobby. I'm going to meet Bobby Marks to get smarter. So Bobby will be on Tuesdays or Wednesday's podcast.

[Zach Lowe]

I'm going to get some sleep to get smarter because two hours of sleep ain't real intelligent.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Thanks for watching the Hoop Collective, presented by State Farm. Thank you to Bountemps. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you for watching and listening. We'll talk to you later this week.

[Zach Lowe]

Adios, amigos.