FULL Analysis Of Jonathan Kuminga Negotiations

Summary

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Podcast Summary: FULL Analysis Of Jonathan Kuminga Negotiations

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Date: September 19, 2025
Guests: Brian Windhorst (Host), Anthony Slater (ESPN), Aaron Turner (President, Varys Basketball; Jonathan Kuminga's representative)

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Episode Overview

This special episode dives deep into the ongoing, unprecedented restricted free agency negotiation between Jonathan Kuminga and the Golden State Warriors. Joining Brian Windhorst and Anthony Slater is Aaron Turner, Kuminga’s agent, who offers candor and transparency amid an unusually stagnant NBA free agency market. The episode explores the unique challenges of the 2025 offseason, the player’s value, the tensions around contractual terms, and what lies ahead for both Kuminga and the Warriors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Most Difficult RFA Summer in Memory

• [06:35] Windhorst: Sets context—2025 has seen virtually no movement for restricted free agents (RFA), with only one non-material offer sheet in the entire offseason.
  • "In my 23 years covering the NBA, this might be the toughest summer for a restricted free agent that we've seen."
• The market for high-end RFAs is effectively "nuclear" or "closed," as most cap space holders are uninterested or unable to tender major offers.

2. Kuminga’s Unique Circumstances & Negotiation History

• [11:15] Turner: Lays out the multi-year journey—Kuminga's developing role, inconsistent rotations, flashes of brilliance, and tensions with Golden State’s coaching staff.
• The Warriors’ preference for flexibility last summer led to no long-term deal for Kuminga, to ensure trade possibilities (e.g., for a superstar like Kevin Durant).
• [13:42] Turner highlights frustration with shifting roles and praise for Kuminga’s work ethic:
  • "His biggest flaw sometimes is he wants it too much."

3. Deal Structures, Sticking Points, and the Player Option Debate

• [10:23][11:15] Slater: Summarizes reported offers on the table:
  • 3 years/$75M (team option)
  • 3 years/$54M (no options)
  • 2 years/$45M (one plus one, team option)
• The gap is no longer annual salary—it's the option structure:
  • Turner insists a player option is essential to compensate for sacrifices (role, possible mid-season trade, limited offensive freedom).
  • "If we're going to take less on the front end, you get a little more on the back end... That’s why the player option has been so pushed by us." — Turner [18:01]
• The Warriors are resisting, citing internal precedent (no player option for Steph Curry, Jimmy Butler), and tradability preference.

4. External Interest and Market Reality

• Multiple other teams (Suns, Kings, mentions of Sacrameto, Scott Perry, Doug Christie, Suns' owner Matt Ishbia) have expressed sincere interest—but all offers are constrained by cap or sign-and-trade complications.
• Turner analogizes the situation:
  • "The market is closed. So if I have a Lamborghini and I need to sell it, but all the dealerships are closed, does that mean my car is worth less? No, it just means no one can buy it right now." [18:35]

5. The Qualifying Offer as Leverage

• [26:07] Slater: Outlines the Warriors' leverage (qualifying offer = 1 year, $7.9M, UFA next summer; comes with a no-trade clause but minimal security).
• Turner: Asserts Kuminga is genuinely willing to bet on himself and take the QO if not treated fairly.
  • [29:40] "Will he take the QO? He will take the QO, but if he's treated fairly... then we don't have to talk about the QO. But the QO is real."
• Turner says they’ve already engaged in risk management (e.g., disability policy) and have done the long-term math, but the qualifying offer remains a tool—not a bluff.

6. Internal & External Views of Kuminga’s Value

• There’s a wide range of league perception on Kuminga’s ceiling; his camp firmly sees All-Star potential.
  • [28:56] "Aaron Turner and Jonathan Kuminga believe he's going to be a multi-time All-Star. That is who the Warriors are negotiating with." — Slater
• Warriors are negotiating with dual motivations: keeping Kuminga for on-court value vs. preserving maximum trade flexibility.

7. Candid Insight into the Reality of NBA Deal-Making

• [31:07][39:24] Windhorst: Both sides are playing their roles as expected based on leverage and business logic.
  • The Warriors want flexibility (esp. for trades); Kuminga’s side seeks fair structure and respect.
  • Past deals—like D’Angelo Russell’s sign-and-trade, which ultimately yielded Andrew Wiggins and the pick that became Kuminga—are cited as examples of assets as trade currency.

8. Buy-in, Team Chemistry & Next Steps

• There’s organizational concern about Kuminga's morale if forced into a less ideal contract (QO or a team option deal) and its impact on locker room dynamics.
• [35:37] Turner: "The number one thing for JK…is he's got to get to the summer of 26, 27 healthy. That is the most important thing."
• The Warriors' dependence on Kuminga for regular season success is emphasized (youth, scoring, defensive versatility).
• Both sides acknowledge that resolution is in everyone’s best interest—and that neither truly wants a QO walk year—but each is prepared for it.

9. Trade Value & Long-Term Outlook

• [40:21] Turner asserts that a fair deal with a player option need not torpedo trade value; Windhorst agrees it marginally reduces flexibility, but for a winning team focused on the present, fairness is paramount.
• [42:16] Windhorst: "The actions of the Warriors are of a team that wants to get the player under contract... everybody's going to be able to feel good about it."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Aaron Turner, on Kuminga’s desire for opportunity:
  • "[Other teams are] offering him opportunities to start games, finish games, right? Know your role. We don't want you to change anything. We want you to continue, develop, spread your wings. So with Golden State it's not a secret, right? JK's... no guarantee he starts any games." [15:05]
• On role clarity and sacrifice:
  • "You're going to have to sacrifice your game from where other people would allow you to do for now, his fifth year. In addition to that, he might get traded. ... There’s the dynamic of sacrificing your game. There’s the dynamic of moving halfway through." — Turner [18:01]
• Windhorst on both sides “doing their job”:
  • “Everybody is acting as normal here. The Warriors are trying to use their perceived leverage... you're trying to flop the tables on that.” [31:07]
• On value of buy-in:
  • "It is important when you have a player this important as JK to feel good about the business so the basketball can be the focus." — Turner [43:25]
• Turner’s closing rationale:
  • "If it's about the here and now, you give him [the player option], you keep your relationship, and ... he gets to feel respected about what he gets, and we all move on and worry about winning... You have to take a little bit of the hit." [40:53]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:35] — Setting the scene: Why this RFA class is so unprecedentedly tough.
• [11:15] — Kuminga’s journey: role fluctuations and negotiation backstory.
• [13:42] — Slater/Turner on player's frustration and performance arcs.
• [18:01] — Why the player option is the real sticking point.
• [26:07] — Qualifying offer: what it means, risks, and leverage.
• [29:40] — Would Kuminga take the QO? What “treated fairly” means.
• [31:07] — Windhorst on the realities of NBA business posture.
• [35:37] — Implications of Kuminga’s contract on team chemistry and season outlook.
• [39:24] — Historical perspective: asset flexibility and Warriors' past deals.
• [40:53] — On trade value, the here and now, and achieving fairness.
• [43:25] — The importance of player satisfaction for team success.

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Tone and Final Thoughts

The episode is transparent, thorough, and at times tense but respectful. Turner is unwavering in advocating for Kuminga but often layers his explanations with analogies and careful business context. Windhorst and Slater deliver pragmatic, insider perspective, often demystifying the impasse for listeners. While public negotiation is rare, all agree that buy-in and fairness are crucial for both the player’s—and the franchise’s—short-term and long-term ambitions.

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Recommended for listeners who want an unprecedented look behind the curtain of NBA negotiations, the business and human side of team-building, and why restricted free agency can be so fraught—even for players on the ascent.

Transcript

[A]

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And in the app, because your personal best is greater than any. All right. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing right now on Thursday afternoon. We've got a unique. Something we've not done before type of podcast here today, which I'll explain in a minute. First off, joining me from Sacramento, California, Anthony Slater. What's up, Slater?

[B]

I'm doing great. You know, you guys were just complimenting my backyard prior to this, so I'm.

[A]

Feeling you're really doing great because you're a Cleveland Guardians fan. And moments ago, they just completed a sweep of the Tigers.

[B]

This is a very Cleveland podcast because Brian has obviously Cleveland ties. And you're about to get to our guest Cleveland ties.

[A]

And actually, I am in Akron right now, so I just got to Northeast Ohio. Joining us is the president of Varys basketball and the representative of Jonathan Kuminga, who's been in the news a little bit lately, Aaron Turner. Aaron, thank you so much for coming on Hoop Collector.

[C]

Thanks for having me. Glad we get the wrap.

[A]

Yeah. And you're joining us from Cleveland, which is where you live and where you're from. I'm here in Ohio. It's a beautiful day. We were just talking before he came on. You went to Orange High School, which is on the east side of Cleveland, and You played against LeBron James in high school and dominated him. From what. I think that's what you just said. I don't. I'll let you clear the record, but I think that's what you said.

[C]

Far from that. But I did. I did get. He got one foul when he played against us. It was against me. So. So I have that.

[A]

So he. He fouled you?

[C]

Fouled me. He could.

[B]

Those are stats now, right? You can find in the box score, like Drew, how many personal fouls drawn?

[C]

Oh, there in the archives. He just couldn't move his feet quick enough.

[A]

So, yeah, that. That was on his scouting report.

[C]

He's the only high score I've ever seen get a foul called, be able to run down to the other side of the floor, put his hands up in the air, and it was like, oh, no, Tech, don't worry about it. Come back down.

[A]

I've seen more than one high school kid yet. Okay, so the. But before we get into the business here, what I like is this great story. There was one game, LeBron's senior year. It was a senior year, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're a year younger than LeBron. You were.

[C]

He was. Well, depends what junior year. We played him at that Canton field house game we were talking about.

[A]

Okay, so your junior year. His senior year. Right. Because you're your younger.

[C]

That was his junior year. It was right when that Sports Illustrated cover came out.

[A]

Oh, right. Okay. So the Sports Illustrated cover comes out. Here's the thing. The Lakers have an off night in Cleveland. They are the defending champions. They are in there. I think that year maybe they won their third of three. So they are the two time champs. They have an off night in Cleveland. LeBron is playing St. Vincent St. Mary. Go Irish. Our football team hasn't scored a point yet. It's like four weeks into the season. I'm just going to bring that up. I'm sorry to say. They're playing in Canton. Canton from Cleveland is what, Aaron?

[C]

Our hour.

[A]

Okay. And it's February, right? So middle of the winter, the Lakers have an off night. Shaquille o' Neal and Kobe Bryant, how many nights do you think that they spent together on off nights? Do you think that they hung out a lot on off nights during that time? Okay. They get in the car, drive an hour to Canton to watch you guys play. Kobe and Shaq show up at your game like you're playing against LeBron, who's on the COVID of Sports Illustrated like a couple of days before. And Kobe and Shaq at their height. Well, maybe not Kobe's height, but certainly Shaq's height.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Show up at your game. What the heck was that? What were you guys saying on the bench when that went down?

[C]

I remember that it was. It was. Our coach was. It was during a timeout. He was drawing up a. Nobody could hear him. I mean, you couldn't even hear. It was the loudest I'd ever seen arena. And you know the Canton field house where it was the way it's built, you know, 5,000 people packed in. I mean, you couldn't hear anything that anybody was saying for the next 30 seconds.

[A]

They were like, like fashionably late. Like they came in like, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And it was so loud and it was in a timeout and no one had any idea what our coach was saying.

[A]

That is amazing. I mean, that's Kind of freaky, man. Right? I mean, just to see Shaq in person, I, you know, you never get used to it.

[C]

Yeah, no, it's. It's all very wild.

[A]

All right, well, the reason you're here is because you're in the middle of the most intense negotiation going on in the NBA right now. And I will tell you, this is my 23rd year covering the NBA. I can't speak with, you know, confidence about the 90s, but in my 23 years covering the NBA, this might be the toughest summer for a restricted free agent that we've seen. And if it's not the toughest, it's right up there. It's not worth arguing over. There was only a couple of teams with cap space. None of them were interested in giving out offer sheets. I think there was only one offer sheet that's been given out this summer and it was like given out by the Hawks for like a couple million dollars. It was not a material offer sheet. And for the four, three or four big name restricted free agents, it was like kind of like a nuclear summer. Like it was going to be. Which you knew, right? Like going in, it wasn't like, this is surprise. You knew. So you were facing a tough situation and you're representing a player. And Jonathan Kaminga, who is still ascendant in his career, he is, I don't, I think you would agree, has not achieved his, his max that he can achieve. So even if he's unrestricted or even if there's a ton of cap space out there and you're negotiating with four or five different offer sheets, negotiating for a player like this is challenging because you're, you're betting on him rising up. So we have a situation that I will say, you don't have to use the words, I'll say it. It's one of the most challenging markets for restricted free agent with arguably the most challenge. You know, Josh Giddey was kind of in the same boat, same sort of challenge, but he had been at least a more established starter this last season. So you have gone through this what I would assume is a pretty stressful summer, and it's still going on. So how did we get here to where we're on September 18th and you still in this stalemate with JK and the Warriors?

[C]

Yeah, no, I mean, that's, that's well said. And it, it has been a brutal year for any restricted free agent. Any, any even free agent in general. Outside, above the mid level. It's the high end free agent market. This Year is basically. It isn't. It doesn't exist. It's not open. So that challenge does. Has been there. We knew it was going to be there, but we're really in this place, you know, now with two weeks, less than two weeks away from training camp. And I know Slater's been tracking this the whole summer and before Even, you know, July 1, when things could start talking with the warriors and whatnot. You know, this is a interesting pattern, and I've had a lot of people talk to me about the other restricted free agents or what's going on. And each one kind of has its own unique set of circumstances. And this one is. Is very unique. You know, the combination of how they finished, you know, Jimmy coming in, Steve's, you know, having a hard time figuring out the combinations that would work with JK on the floor. Eve openly stating that many times as he, you know, and also after the season and then JK's developmental arc and what he's looking to do and, you know, where he wants to go. All these things have made this very, very challenging outside of, you know, of course, no free agent market, but us finding a deal with them. So that's why we are sitting here now, two weeks away. And like, I was laughing, you know, before we got on Jonathan's in Cleveland with me working out. That's not normally how my September goes. I'm normally relaxing, you know, taking my.

[A]

Everybody knows that Cleveland is the hub of the NBA off season. I mean, that's why we're here.

[C]

That's why everybody comes here. That's right now it's. It's. But, you know, that's kind of our, you know, our. We had scripted. Normally he's, you know, going to be in Miami and then he goes back to the bay or wherever team he was going to be. And we kind of just threw this together last minute and said, hey, let's give him, you know, a good. A good infrastructure in Cleveland. So he's got everything he needs here and he's working and, you know, we're doing the best we can to simulate games and keep him, you know, ready to go and in shape if. Even if that means, you know, he doesn't report till October 1st. You know, we want him to be ready and in great shape. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pinned messages so no.

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[A]

Let's drive.

[B]

So we, there's so much like, you know, pretext to this obviously, but, but speeding it up for the moment. We know the offers. We've reported the offers that are sitting there on the table. 3 for 75 with the team option, 3 for 54 I believe, no options. And then the one that's been sitting there most of the summer, two for 45, one and one team option on it. I am of the belief at this point that y' all are not that misaligned on like per year value. Obviously you went on the record with me a couple days ago talking about if that team option in the three year deal and you could even speak to it maybe even in the two year deal if that team option was, was a player option, it's not only signed but you know, you have a, you know, a bought in Jonathan Kaminga at that point. Why, why is the, the player option the final hurdle here and, and why is it being, you know, I guess negotiated as, as strictly right now between the two sides.

[C]

So I'm going to kind of go back to last summer because I think if we're going to, you know, we could go back to, to the first year of jk. We could go back to the, you know, with the JK Steve Dynamic. We could go to year two where you know, in March, end of February, March up to early April, JK was a big, big part of, you know, them getting into the playoffs. Even in that year they played the Kings when Wiggins was dealing with some personal issues and whatnot. And he averaged, you know, 13 and a half a game and really was. Was really efficient. I think his true shooting percentage was like 64% during that time period. And then, you know, kind of falling back again during the playoffs as the rotation tightened. And then going into year three where he had, you know, 20, 25 game span where he was phenomenal. He was, you know, Draymond was saying, you know, this guy's never going to not be at an All Star. Enjoy your last All Star break, jk, because you're going to be an All Star the, the rest of your career. So there's a lot of things leading up to last summer where, you know, you know, do we. Do we get something done? And I know there's been a lot of conversations and, you know, about what happened last summer, and I'm bringing this all to get to your points later of like, why we are now the player option, all that. But, you know, the warriors, they didn't want to do a deal last summer. I know everyone people have reported, did you guys turn down 5 years, 150? We would have taken that. We would have. We would have had to take that if it was on the table, but it wasn't on the table and I didn't. No one was mad about it. It was. The warriors wanted to maintain flexibility. Had they given JK pretty much anything above 20 million, they would have, I mean, even above the mid level, to be honest with you, they would have been. Not been able to move him. That poison pill provision that would have said, hey, you know, if you trade him out, you know, that team has to take them back is, you know, 25, 26 salary would have. They would have no chance to get a Kevin Durant like they almost did last year with JK being the centerpiece. So that was the choice they made. They didn't want to do a deal again. No one was upset about that. But, you know, we went into this year or last season, you know, hoping that they would. There would be kind of more of an opportunity to figure this all out. And, you know, JK had moments where he was given a long Runway end of December, early January, and really flourished. But there was a lot of ups, downs, ups, downs, up downs. And that's kind of been the, the theme, you know, in year four. There was one moment where it was like, hey, we're passing the torch to jk. You know, this is his time. He was coming off a big 33.

[B]

Point game against Draymond Green, accepted a bench roll, if, you know, people might remember, for a few games.

[C]

And.

[B]

And they basically, you know, kind of announced if he's up next. We got to see it. That was during that time and it.

[C]

Lasted a few games and then he was back coming off the bench and it was. It was very frustrating. So, you know, and in that month in December, he averaged 21 points, six rebounds. He was really, really good. So, you know, then unfortunately, and I've. The Steve, JK dynamic was really flourishing. And JK gets this really bad, you know, ankle sprain, which was unfortunate because like I said, that was to me, the high point of Steve and jk. They were. They were really doing well. Everything was vibe and. And then again, he gets hurt. Jimmy comes in. Jimmy was phenomenal, you know, and we get to this point where, you know, we. We're now in this weird spot where, you know, obviously they committed a bunch of money to Jimmy. Everyone understands that. But now it's like, where do we go? And it's funny, I always say this about the NBA with my guys, like, you don't get too high, you don't get too low, because when something happens, you don't know necessarily if it's good or bad. But when, you know, Steph got hurt against Minnesota and JK filled in, he had a great series. I thought he played really well, and I was happy for him in the sense that, you know, having. Getting DNPs and stuff that was going on in Houston, he got to show that. But it probably made all this a lot harder even because Joe was sitting courtside watching jk, you know, you know.

[A]

Joe Lake of the warriors, just, I'm just. Just in case it's your guys life. But I just have to fill in, you know, fill in people going to figure out who Jimmy is. But just.

[C]

Just to be clear, right, so Joe Lake of, you know, he's. He's sideline and you know, he's watching jk, you know, shred essentially the. One of the best defenses in the league, you know, after all star break last year. And I think he finished averaging 21 a game that series, 54 from the field, 42 from three. And so it's like, okay, we get to the summer, this guy's clearly got some talent. Where are we going with this? And you know, that's why we're we're in this spot of this confusion of where do we go from here. And I think that that's kind of moved this summer. And so when you get to the player option, the kind of the way we look at it and have approached this from day one, you know, there's been a lot of stuff I've heard. JK doesn't want to be with the Warriors. Like we can unpack that a little bit. I think JK is the hardest worker I've ever represented from a 1 to 10. His work ethic is an 11. He loves it, he's competitive. I've kind of said this about him. His biggest flaw sometimes is he wants it too much. So you know, he's, he's gotten a chance to hear from other teams. Sacramento, you know, he spent some time with them, got to meet Scott Perry, Doug Christie, the Suns and what they've offered him. And there's been other teams too who, you know, maybe planting seeds for 26, 27, but saying, hey, you know, we want you to be you. We don't want you to change anything. We want to put the ball in your hands. We want to give you a huge opportunity to play, play. So I don't think it's more about not being on, you know, not wanting to be on the warriors because the warriors if having rep guys on all different teams, it is first class as you get. I mean everything there is awesome from the facility, how they treat the guys, it's like amazing. But these other places are offering them opportunities to start games, finish games, right? Know your role. We don't want you to change anything. We want you to continue, develop, spread your wings. So with Golden State it's not a secret, right? JK's and Slater, you made this point the other day on espn. No guarantee starts any games. He may, but we don't know. Finishing games night tonight, who knows? It depends if Steve has a combination he likes and it's working, maybe he sticks with it, maybe he doesn't. You know, you're going to have to not have the ball as much. You're going to have to stay away from developing certain parts of your game or wanting to lean into certain part of your game, especially shooting any type of mid range jump shots, which is something JK does work on. But in the Golden State offense and the role he's in, that's not going to be a big shot that he's really going to be able to take much. So part of it is you're going to have to sacrifice Your game from where other people would allow you to do for now, his fifth year. In addition to that, he might get traded. He knows that, we know that. They know that. I mean we went in exploring all options, you know, myself, Mike Dunleavy, can we find a sign and trade that works? Can we duck around this base compensation rule that only allows them to bring back half the money. But he knows it's a real, real thing. You may get traded and I really can't find where I've seen a free agent at, you know, 20 million above where you sign and go. You know, I know I'm going to.

[A]

Get very 100 agree.

[C]

It's very rare, it's very right and I've said that. So he's, he doesn't want to move three months from now. He doesn't want to up, you know, take his, you know, pack up his life and move. So there's the dynamic of sacrificing your game. There's the dynamic of moving halfway through.

[B]

The season and mid season trades for players, Brian, you've been around like are a lot different than off season moving teams. You know, when you have to pack up in the middle of the season like a players want to know, you know, I'm going to be here. It's why the trade deadline everyone you know, is so antsy about.

[C]

But anyway, yeah, no, I mean that's so, so we look at, you know, the sacrifice of his game, we look at that and then you know, these other teams, you know, Matt Ishbia who's openly, you know, he, he wanted, he would give JK whatever he could if he had the cap space. He's trying to figure it out through a sign and trade. And JK's heard these conversations. So he, he knows what's out there. He knows the deals, the guaranteed money, the opportunity. So when you factor all that in, you know, the thought is okay, if we're coming back here and it's win now this is Steph's probably last window to win. Like help us out on the back end of the deal because we're going to be sacrificing what we just spoke about. And that's why the player option has been so pushed by us. And I give credit to jk. There's a lot said about him that he only cares about himself or scoring. It couldn't be farther from the truth. JK is not a guy that says, oh man, I scored 30, 25. He just wants to be a part of what's going on. He does. Of Course, want to have the ball more. He wants the ball in his hands, but he's. He's not a guy that doesn't want to win. He wants to be part of that. And before we started this negotiation, I came to him and I've been educating him through this process, and he's learned a lot through this process. And I said to him, hey, look at the warriors cap sheet. All right? They have some second apron issues. It's probably unreasonable to ask them to go over that. Even though we like Jalen Green's deal, we see Jalen Johnson's deal, two guys that we think were, hey, not going to say who's better, but okay, we see these deals, we like those numbers, but it's probably unrealistic here, you know, and, and how are they going to get the team better and bring you back? And, you know, we knew about the. Al Horford had heard about what was going on with Alan. To JK's credit, he said, look, I'll sacrifice for that. Give Al the taxpayer. Mid level comes in, it helps. We've never had a stretch five like that. Steve has said openly, you know, having a stretch five, some of the combinations that might loosen up the floor for the Jimmy Draymond JK dynamic, maybe Al can really help with that. So, you know, he was all on board with that, but because we were going to, you know, take a number on the front that, you know, we thought was maybe at a lower level than some of Jalen Green, Jalen Johnson, some of these other guys to help the team win in this, this window, then let us have the player option on the back end, you know, as. And if jk, it's not that he wouldn't stay in Golden State, but if he wants to stay, he'd have the ability to stay. And if he doesn't, then, okay, nothing's forcing him back to the table. So that's really Slater, where the player option became important. Because the way I look at it, in a lot of deals, and I think this is a lot of businesses, it's, you know, if you're going to take less on the front end, you get a little more on the back end. If you want more, you know, on the front end, you're going to get less on the back end. And in this situation, to help the team win along with those kind of sacrifices we spoke about, we felt like that solution, and JK feels like it is. Is fair. We think it's fair. We think it's the. That it's, it's the right thing to do. And listen, I get it's the NBA and there's business and there's negotiations and it's, you know, a lot of people say, you know, you can only, you're worth what you can negotiate, okay? And I know that because I've been in a bunch of different negotiations. But in this situation, and you know, people have said, him, he has no market. There's no market. It's not that he doesn't have a market. The market is closed, okay? It's closed. So if I have a, you know, a Lamborghini and I'm in a bind and I say to somebody, hey man, you know, it's, it's Saturday night, I need some cash. For whatever reason, I wouldn't be in this situation, but I need some cash. It's a 911. I gotta help my family, whatever that is. Monday morning, you can sell this car for $175,000. You know, can you, can you give me that? And you know, maybe this is a friend of mine or somebody that I do business with. Give me 175, give me even 160, go sell it for 175 on Monday. You'll get your return right out of it. They say now we'll give you, we'll give you 60 grand. Like, man, you could sell it. Monday morning, the, the Lamborghini dealership will be open. And they say, now what do you want to do? Do you want to handle your emergency or not? This is what we're offering you. So the whole theory of like, JK doesn't have a market, especially if the teams he's talking to, his market's closed. It's not open this year. To your point, Brian, it's the worst RFA market we've seen. There is no market. So that doesn't mean that a deal is fair or not fair to him just because the market is close. And I've said from the beginning to Mike and the warriors, you're not selling the basketball here, Steve. And I like Steve. You know, I've known Steve Kerr since I was 5 years old. That's a whole nother story. It's pretty wild full circle thing back when you played with the Cavs, Brian. But you know, he, he, him and JK have had an up and down relationship. They've. JK has flourished under Steve. At times I don't really buy the whole thing that JK can't play for Steve. I always say, you know who, when JK was scoring 25, 26 a game. Who was, who was on the sidelines? It was Steve. He can play under Steve. I know Steve at some points and he made this very clear at the end of the season. I like a different type of player arc. You know, he kind of, he'll say he wants JK to be more like Aaron Gordon. Sean Marion, I, I don't agree with Steve on that side. I don't think JK is very much like those guys. I think they're different player arcs. I think Jake is, you know, just different. I'm not saying who's better, who's not, but Aaron Gordon's more playing off the ball. He's not as much of a point of attack defender. It's just that they're different. So Steve made it clear though, right, with, with Draymond, with Jimmy, the, the shooting, lack of shooting, it doesn't really, you know, fit. So again, if he's going to come back to this mic, you know, these other teams, right? You know, hey jk, we head coaches saying we believe in you. We're excited to have you. We want to, we want you to be here and play your game. Sell the deal. Sell the deal structure because that's the warriors incumbent advantage right over everyone else. They can sell the best deal. And that's where I thought we could bridge the gap. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[B]

Yeah, well, let's get into the qualifying offer and the reasons why you guys are, you know, saying you might take it at this point. They, you know, they, they would argue particularly on the front end of the deal. They are offering more than theoretical sons and kings offers. And you know, if you decide the team option is deal is a no go in the next, you know, 12 days, the, the, the one piece of leverage you clearly have in this negotiations in a restricted free agent market is taking the qualifying offer. Now that is one year 7.9 million. It does come with unrestricted free agency. It does come with a no trade clause, but it also comes with, if you did the one in one that's been on the table all summer, what like 13, 14 less million for Jonathan, come again next season. If you refuse the two plus one with the team option, that's, you know, whatever. Do the math for me, somebody here, but you know, it's, we're talking about whatever it is like 40 something guaranteed compared to 8. What is your view of the qualifying offer and why are you willing to take it? Or, or are you?

[C]

Yeah, well, you brought up a good point, sir. You know, I pitched the player option deal, right, to give them flexibility. We haven't said no to a team option. Our theory and feeling is though, if you want a team option and you want to get rid of his no trade clause, which the QO inherently has, okay, that's a different price. You got to pay for that. Okay, you gotta, you gotta put more on top if you want both. I've also pitched just before we get to taking the Q, hey, fine, we'll do the one plus one scenario, but let him keep his no trade clause, which would put us in the same position we are right now, but with no base compensation rule. So JK at least has a seat at the table to figure out where he wants to go next. And you guys would have the back end of the deal, but they won't do that. So they've really tried to make a deal where they have no risk and are taking, you know, to me, advantage of the situation of the market being closed. So jk, when and why is the QO a real thing? If you know, Jonathan, he is very, has a lot of self belief, he's very confident. I tell people all the time, you know, and I Tell the words. Look who you're, you're dealing with. I don't know many people that could be getting DNPs in the playoffs, not play for three weeks, come into game two against Minnesota, make his first nine shots, then go out the next night and have 30 points and six rebounds at his age, you know, 20 some the next night, 29 to finish the series and have that level of confidence and self belief. Yeah.

[B]

And I would say like, you know, Brian, you know, it's like there's a very wide range of belief around the league of how good Jonathan Kamiga can be. We, you know, we may on this call have varying degrees. There's certainly, you know, disproportionate, you know, views within the organization, the warriors organization of how good he can be. But it is Aaron Turner and Jonathan Kaminga believe he's going to be a multi time all star. He has that type of talent and that is who the warriors are negotiating with. A side that believes, you know, once he does get control, once he does get a Runway, that's, that's where the takeoff is going.

[C]

Yeah, no, he believes that. I believe that. Our group around him believes that. We believe he's more about the right things than I think a lot of people think. I think some of the times you, you know, people say, well, he took this shot or that shot that he shouldn't take. And you know, playing with Steph, you, you have to really understand how to play with Steph and it's something that you, that's why I see a lot of vets really flourish in the role of understanding how to look for Steph first. And sometimes JK's 22. He's like, I can get downhill right away and he won't. So he has, he has a lot of self belief and he can.

[B]

I keep the question simple though. Like he's willing to leave this much money on the table.

[C]

Yeah, my bad, sorry. Getting big. I was framing to why the Q.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, I mean, that's the big thing here because we're talking straight dollars and cents here. They are offering a ton of money.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And he is saying, maybe I will not take that money.

[C]

Right. So when we look at these deals, one of the things he'll say to me is like, you know, is this deal, you know, fair to me and based on the, what we discussed, is it fair? No, I don't think it's fair. I don't think it, it, it's right. I think that it's taking advantage of the Circumstances which for jk, you know, that's not what he's looking for. So when you say, will he take the qo? He will take the qo, but if he's treated fairly and in our mind, that's flipping, like I said, the. To the po, he's back and then we don't have to talk about the qo. But the QO is real. It's something that, you know, if JK wants to take, it does have upside. Right, We've talked about that. You don't get, you know, you're not getting traded. You're going to have unrestricted free agency in a year that even if you want to say, well, Aaron, there's not going to be 10 or 12 teams, fine, there'll be six teams of cap space for the clear cut, you know, under 35, the top wing on the market. So there's a lot of upside if, you know, he wants to pick where he wants to go and, you know, the opportunity to be an unrestricted free agent in a way better market. So the QO is real for sure. There's, there's no, it's being considered completely. It's being talked about. We've, you know, as you reported later, we've gotten a disability policy out for him that would, you know, hedge out some of the, the injury risk. But it's not something, you know, anybody wants to.

[B]

Neither side, I mean, Brian, you know this, right? Clearly that we wouldn't be here on September 18th on this podcast discussing this if either side wanted that to be the outcome.

[A]

Yeah, I would just say, I would just say, like, first off, Aaron, I really appreciate you coming on because this is really a one off situation. I can't remember where you're in the middle of the negotiation. You're willing to bring the fans in to hear this because I'm telling you, there's incredible amount of interest in Jonathan's free agency, more than I can remember and probably because he's on the warriors and partially because he's. It's September and he's the number one free agent on the market. And there's this, there's this.

[B]

And the warriors have signed nobody officially at this point.

[A]

Well, that's true. I do think I do see a lot of people, you know, like, why aren't the warriors signing anybody? They're going to sign a bunch of guys. But I would just say that having been around for a while, you know, I just seen a lot of stuff. I've seen restricted free agencies go into December. I've seen teams have multiple restricted free agents that don't come to training camp. Okay, I've seen restricted free agencies end at the end of a training camp. I've seen them end in the season. From my viewpoint, Aaron, and I totally get that you are absolutely eyeball deep in this. And because the thing about an agent does like a lot of stuff that people don't see, your job is a lot deeper and more encompassing than just negotiating the contract. But your work product to the world is the contract. And not only that, everybody sees it. You know, if you're a development coach, maybe you did a great job or maybe you did a bad job, but nobody can necessarily see it. Maybe the player gets better and that doesn't really reflect your work. In the case of an agent or representative, I'm trying to work out not saying agent. I've been told that's bad. Your work product is what the contract is. So it's my way of saying I totally understand. You are eyeball deep in fighting it. From my perspective as a jaded guy who's been around for 20 years and seen a lot of this stuff, I feel like everybody is acting as normal here. I think the warriors are trying to use their perceived leverage. They know that you can't get an offer sheet, so they're trying to squeeze you. I think if you were their general manager and the situation was reversed, well, I won't put that on you. I would just say if I was a general manager and the situation was reversed, I probably would be trying to squeeze you, too. In your situation, Aaron, what you, what you've done is you've tried to flop the tables on that. Number one, you got offers from other teams, okay? The warriors don't seem interested in the sign and trades. That's cost to do in business. You can get signed and trade offers. If you can't do the deal, you can't do the deal. But based on Anthony and Shams Turani's reporting from this week, you've gotten them to increase their offer. Their offers now are better than they were a month ago. You've done your job, okay? Job's not finished. Kobe Bryant, what have you, they're coming up with their offers. They're offering more years and more money. They're dealing with the second apron. But I do think that unless I'm wrong, you correct me if I'm wrong. They're offering more than either the Suns or the Kings have offered. Not because they don't want to offer more, but because they're limited in what they can do in the sign and trade. So they can look you in the eye and say, we're making a best offer. And they can look you in the eye and say, hey, we don't want to do a player option because we didn't give one to Steph. We didn't give one to Jimmy Butler last year. They did give one to Draymond, but Draymond, and correct me if I'm wrong, Slater on this, Draymond did take a pay cut as part of this contract.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

He.

[B]

He ripped up his player option. Signed at a lower number.

[A]

And I know, just because Andrew Wiggins.

[B]

Got a player option.

[A]

Oh, he did. Okay. Well, anyway, they can look you in the eye and say, that's why we didn't do it. If Steph doesn't get one, you be able to get one. I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm just saying what they could say. And, you know, I think everybody's doing their job here, Aaron, and I think you're working really hard, and the warriors are working really hard. And in the end, I think it is. It's interesting because of the possible trade. I think the warriors, they wouldn't say it publicly, but I do think they're negotiating a contract not just to save Joe Lake of money and not just to protect their apron. I mean, both of those are true. I think they're working hard because they want to get a contract that's as tradable as possible. And I don't think they necessarily admit that. But. But I. But I think all these things are in play.

[C]

No, it's been admitted. It's. It's.

[A]

We.

[C]

JK's a big boy. We. We know what it is. And I think, you know, my. I have a lot of optimism if he comes back. And to Slater's point, people are worried about the buy in. Right. And I think. Buy in. What does buy in mean in this situation?

[A]

Yeah, they're worried that if he takes a qualifying offer, he's going to be checked out.

[B]

Or even, by the way, even if he takes a team, a deal that isn't the deal he likes. I think there's. There's curiosity, especially again with, as I reported the other day, you know, is he going to be happy? And if he's not happy, what does that mean on the floor and in the locker room?

[C]

Yeah, I think. I think that's the in. From the beginning, I've said this. I mean, every RFA situation is different, but the warriors are trying to win. And anybody who's watched the warriors closely understands JK is a massive piece. I understand he didn't play in the playing game in the Houston series, But in an 82 regular season game, season, 82 game, season, 12 of their first 17 are back to backs. They're older. That's just the truth, right? JK is vital. He was their third leading scorer last year and him coming back and I believe this is, you know, the Thunder have set the bar, right? They are very close knit as a team. He. For him to come back and, you know, be all about, you know, feeling good, I think that's, that's very, very important. And so when you look at, you know, where this has gone, you know, Brian, I would say that, you know, to me, again, this is, I agree, you're taking. The warriors are doing what they, you know, can based on the rules and whatnot. But if JK is very important to your team, you know, I would need a guy, you know, bought in. And I think the, the problem for them if JK doesn't feel good about the deals being offered is if he comes back on the QO. And a lot of times you talk to GMs around the league when you're in win now mode, like the warriors are right, and trying to maximize the rest of Stefan Draymond's window and Jimmy and his, you know, get him his first ring. You need everybody bought in. And a lot of times you'll hear people say, you know, I don't really want a guy who hasn't gotten paid yet or gotten a bigger contract, even if it's an older guy on an expiring deal in a year that you're trying to win everything, because naturally, where's that person's mind going to? So do I think, you know, if JK came back on the qo, would he be excited to play? Yeah, he's itching to play right now. But the reality is the number one thing for J.K. and his family and if I'm watching, you know, advising is he's got to get to the summer of 26, 27 healthy. That is the most important thing. So, you know, if JK wasn't that important to the warriors, fine. And I, you know, Slater and I talk about this, I'll see, you know, a fan base or some of the people say, why this guy's holding everything up, like, get rid of him. He, you know, I. What's it, What's. I don't like this guy. Fine. That's my point. If you don't like him, that's fine, but let him go. But if you're not going to let him go or renounce him, then you have your full mid level. You can sign and trade, you can, you know, move and shake. But if, if, if he is important and he does matter, you got to get him to a place where he feels good about the deal. And the QO for JK has risk, but it has upside in its own way. Not necessarily. It'll take him a couple years to make back, maybe the money he would lose. But again, he, he believes in himself. I believe in him. We've looked at his 10 year forecast. We've put it in Excel spreadsheets, we've, we've done all that. But he's also educated himself on what the QO means to the other side, to the Warriors. And we've talked through this many times and he believes the warriors need him. He thinks his teammates do. I do. I think everybody who's really watched the warriors thinks he's a very important piece. Now, would we get deeper in the season in a playoff series, would Steve maybe move him out of the rotation? Sure, that's possible. We've seen it before. But to get through 82 games to manage minutes back to backs, he's very important. And whether it's with him or his number, he is a very, he is really the most important piece for the warriors because they need him to take a jump and ascend, especially to play against the Thunder. And I always, one of my people, when I talk to people around the league, I said, if you really want to study JK and learn about jk, just watch him against the Thunder. That'll tell you everything you need to know. How he plays against them, how he, how he steps up against them. So they need that. And if it's not him, they need his number, they need to move him to bring somebody else to help him. Go look at their cap sheet and go see the movable salaries they have if Jonathan Kaminga is on a qo.

[A]

This is such a, a reality of the new era that you can talk so openly about because, like, let's be honest, this is what the warriors did with d' Angelo Russell. They signed d' Angelo Russell in the Durant signing trade so that they could have a piece to trade later, which they did for Wiggins, which ended up being a big move.

[B]

Oh, by the way, not only for. They didn't just trade him for Andrew Wiggins, they traded him for the draft pick that became Jonathan Kaminga.

[A]

Yes, yes. And so anyway, I just says we'll wrap up now. But I will say that it's easy for me to say this because I got no skin in the game, Aaron, but I say at the end of this, the warriors are going to have a contract that they can trade. It may not be as tradable as they dreamed of. Jonathan is going to be protected financially and you're going to have made a major stride from where they were on July 1st to where they are in September, whatever. And I think it's all going to work out. But again, it's easy for me to say that.

[C]

The only thing I would ask you, Brian, is do you think JK on a 2 plus 1 in that number range is not a tradable contract?

[B]

And the plus one, you're talking player.

[C]

Not team, is that not a tradable?

[A]

I think it, I think it reduces his value marginally. Like, like if you, you know, if you're trying to get the most tradable thing, you don't want the player on a short deal because the team who's trading for him doesn't want to have to deal with worrying about him in a year. But it's not like, no, it's not crushing. It's not like you're, you're signing him to a, to a 17 year contract.

[C]

It's not ideal. It's not the front end and the back end and my point, and we can leave on this, the point is if you want to win now and to the points we made of why we value the player option and JK does and you want a guy that's happy and feels treated fairly, who is a big part of this team, we believe moving forward, you give him the player option. You're right, Brian, you did lose a little bit of that, you know, trade value. But if it's about the here and now, you give him that, you keep your relationship and you don't get a perfect deal, but you get a pretty good deal and he gets to feel respected about what he gets and we all move on and worry about winning and, and like he said, helping Steph and he, he said this in the meeting with Joe, you know, I'm all in to help Steph. Let's send him out. We should be focusing on winning right now and I'm fine with that. But again, you have to take a little bit of the hit. You know, warriors, in terms of you don't have the back end, but if Jake, two years from now, you want to keep him, you'll have his bird rights. You treat him good and you show him, hey, the plan around him then, then maybe you keep him. So it's not perfect, but I don't think anybody can get anything they really want. If you ask jk, he wants Jalen Greens deal. He's not getting that. He wants Jalen Johnson deal. You're not getting that. Warriors, we feel like pick front end number, lower player option if that number needs to be lower to stay in the second apron. Or it's about really controlling the back end of the deal. Move the number up, shake your roster up and you can have a team option or the hybrid model. Let him keep his no trade clause.

[A]

Well, I would just say one of my big theories. Anybody listen to this podcast knows I'm in actions over words guy. I think Mike Dunleavy is doing his job. I think you're doing your job. I think Jonathan did his job because he's getting offered, you know, tens of millions of dollars a year. He did his job to get to this point. And the actions of the warriors are the actions of a team that wants, wants to get the player under contract. I don't know if they envision him as a guy that's going to be there in 2030, but they are. Their actions are of a player who wants to get him under contract. And your job is to get the best possible and you're in the middle of the fight. And I appreciate you opening this window and letting us know the way you're thinking and we'll see how it goes. But I think at the end of this, I really do believe everybody's going to be able to feel good about it. And I say that I've seen restricted free agencies end where that's not the case. I feel like this is going to be there and you can say to me, yeah, but I wouldn't disagree with you.

[B]

Brian loves Happy Endings, the movie. And I should. Sorry, can we cut that out?

[A]

Thanks, Slater. No, don't cut it. I want you to leave it in. It's fine.

[B]

Brian loves movies with. With. With rosy finishes.

[C]

There you go. This can work. I think the biggest thing, though, and Slater touched on this other day, I think it is important when you have a player this important as JK to feel good about the business so that the basketball can be the focus. If the winning didn't matter and it was like, hey, whatever, then I would agree that, you know, how he feels is probably pretty irrelevant, but I think, you know, he's pretty important. They won't let them go. And if you're going to tell somebody your contract's over with us and you have a team that wants to give you $100 million or so in a player option and a starting role, but we're not going to let you go and we're not going to give you a great deal. We're going to give you the deal we can take advantage of. Don't ask any. I wouldn't ask somebody to necessarily be happy about that. I know I personally wouldn't really be very happy about that.

[A]

Hey, Aaron, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you to Slater for being here and setting this up. Thank you to our producer Jackson, and thank you for listening and watch to this unique edition of the Hoop Collective. We will talk to you soon.

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