Is This The End For The Warriors? + Panic Growing For Knicks & Time For Detroit To Go All-In?

Summary

Podcast Summary

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode: Is This The End For The Warriors? + Panic Growing For Knicks & Time For Detroit To Go All-In?
Date: January 21, 2026
Host: Brian Windhorst, with ESPN Insiders Tim Bontemps, Wendy Leung, and Bam McMahon

Episode Overview

This episode centers on major shifts in the NBA, focusing on the devastating injury to Jimmy Butler and its consequences for the Golden State Warriors, the New York Knicks' alarming nosedive from contender to crisis, and the Detroit Pistons’ surprising rise and the pressure (or not) to go all-in at the deadline. The panel also touches on the Toronto Raptors’ front-office stability and the evolving trade market heading into the deadline.

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1. The Golden State Warriors’ Crisis After Jimmy Butler’s ACL Tear

Main Discussion (00:51–16:15)

• Jimmy Butler Tears ACL (36 years old):

  • Massive blow for Golden State as Butler is their second-oldest player in the injury database since 2005.
  • “It’s obviously a career-threatening injury. So Bontemps, this… changes what the Warriors are looking at—short term, medium term, and long term.” (Tim Bontemps, 02:55)

• Impact on Warriors’ Present and Future:

  • Warriors had been surging (12 wins out of 16), hoping to be buyers at the deadline.
  • Butler’s $57 million contract next year is now an albatross.
  • “The challenge now is, I don’t know how the Warriors give themselves a chance in the short or medium term with this Jimmy Butler contract on the books.” (Wendy Leung, 03:54)
  • Recovery from ACL at this age typically means 8–12 months, but “the guy’s not the same again until about 18 months out.” (Windhorst, 08:24)

• Trade or Wait? No Easy Solutions:

  • Making Butler’s contract a trade “filler” isn’t attractive—nobody wants a $57M question mark.
  • “The idea of using Jimmy in a trade when he’s owed $57 million next year, when he might not play, is like, ‘good luck.’” (Windhorst, 09:47)
  • Possibility of big trade (e.g., for Giannis) seems highly unlikely.

• Jonathan Kuminga:

  • With Butler out, Kuminga must get minutes for value maximization and possible trade asset building.
  • “How many times have we said that in the last three years?” (Tim Bontemps, 06:45)

• Season Outlook:

  • Likely “lost season”—maybe play-in team “by default, if nothing else.” (Wendy Leung, 09:40)
  • Diminished trade market leaguewide: “If you're interested generally in trades happening, I think this makes it harder for trades to happen, too.” (Leung, 14:24)

Notable Quotes

• On Butler’s impact:
  “He’s a maniac worker. If there’s anybody who’s gonna come back from this thing in a shorter time, it is probably Jimmy. But it’s a lot to ask.” (Wendy Leung, 14:24)
• On the Warriors’ window:
  “Without a trade, you can’t logically make an argument that they can do what Steve Kerr said they hope to do, which is have a chance to make a run in the West...” (Wendy Leung, 13:10)

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2. The Knicks’ Freefall: Panic in New York

Main Discussion (18:25–32:29)

• Collapse Post-NBA Cup:

  • After “winning the NBA Cup in Vegas,” Knicks surge to 23–9 before going 2–9 in last 11 games—now tied for worst record in the league in that stretch.
  • “There is a rot in the soul of this team right now. Like seriously, how else do you explain a team that's supposed to be a title contender going 2 and 9 with this bad of a defense?” (Windhorst, 22:00)

• Problems Run Deep:

  • Once a top-three offense, now bottom-five on both ends; effort is lacking (“Mitchell Robinson looks like the only guy who's playing hard.” – Windhorst, 21:42).
  • Team lost at home to a shorthanded Mavericks squad, “blew you out of your building in front of a national TV audience.” (Windhorst, 22:00)
  • “They fired Tibbs and they look like a team that is rolling over on their coach midway through his first season.” (Windhorst, 25:19)

• Internal Tensions and Coaching Dynamics:

  • Noted disconnect between Mike Brown and Karl Towns; cold winds through the locker room, sense of “culture rot” at the top.
  • Brunson calls a players-only meeting, “emphasize[ing] that the getting them out of this is… in that room, not the coaching staff.” (Tim Bontemps, 26:00)

• High Stakes Stay Hot:

  • Owner James Dolan publicly set Finals-or-bust expectations, went on media after two years:
    • “He comes back and does the Carton show and says, quote, ‘We gotta make the Finals and we should win them.’ Since then the Knicks have gone 2 and 6.” (Wendy Leung, 29:59)
  • Knicks remain in third place but only just ahead of seventh.

Notable Quotes

• “The Knicks coach has to beat the New York Knicks first because it’s such a challenging culture and that’s why, that’s why they haven’t had success in a quarter century until these last couple years. The culture starts at the very very top and there's culture rot in that franchise right now.” (Windhorst, 31:43)

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3. Detroit Pistons: Should They Go All-In?

Main Discussion (33:23–47:02)

• Detroit’s Surge:

  • 31–10 at halfway, on 62-win pace, 2nd in defense, 11th in offense, net rating tied with Boston.
  • “They have as big of a lead in the Eastern Conference right now as the Thunder do in the West.” (Windhorst, 35:11)

• Cade Cunningham’s Ascendance—and Limitation:

  • All-Star voting: players gave him highest votes in the East.
  • “Cade last night had 14 assists and no turnovers… he’s having a hell of a season. Deserving All-Star starter, deserving guy in the MVP race, all of that is true.” (Wendy Leung, 36:41)
  • Pistons’ playoff limitation: “They only have one guy who could dribble. Cade Cunningham is awesome…but when it gets down to it, one creator, one real-deal creator.” (Bontemps & Windhorst, 36:10)

• Deadline Opportunity?

  • Pistons could, in theory, push in with assets: “If they can get another legitimate threat on the perimeter next to Cade...I would tell you I think Detroit could win the title.” (Wendy Leung, 44:44)
  • Panel sees their front office in an “opportunistic, not aggressive” mindset—may stay patient and look for a move more like OKC’s stepwise progression rather than going all-in.
  • “This is not Oklahoma City. The Eastern Conference is also not the West. This is… a freeway of space for them to get in.” (Wendy Leung, 41:49)

• Names Floated:

  • Michael Porter Jr. mentioned, but real “dream” is Kyrie Irving (health, availability unknown).

Notable Quotes

• “They could just get another reliable perimeter scorer to plug in there.” (Wendy Leung, 41:49)
• “If he [Kyrie] was healthy and available and they could get him, you plug him into that team, I would tell you I think Detroit could win the title.” (Wendy Leung, 44:44)

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4. Toronto Raptors Stability & Deadline Rumors

Main Discussion (47:02–55:04)

• Front Office “Vote of Confidence”:

  • Raptors’ president/CEO Keith Pelley goes on record to quash rumors of pressure or instability around GM Bobby Webster:
    • “There is no pressure regarding the trade deadline or Bobby Webster’s contract… This team, under Bobby’s direction, will contend for championships.” (49:01–50:08)
  • Raptors well-positioned (“fourth in East”) but have many long-term deals, so more likely to engage in big-salary deals.

• Aggressive but Selective:

  • Linked to Ja Morant/Anthony Davis but consensus is that a major trade is unlikely (lack of interest leaguewide in Ja, desire to shed salary for AD suitors).
  • Difficult to use big contracts as leverage in trades unless those contracts are performing.

Notable Quotes

• “We believe in Bobby Webster. He’s going to be here for a while. So that eliminates those whispers.” (Windhorst, 52:09)
• “Guys, I’m talking to our listeners… We’re having difficulty as media people who cover the league finding a team that’s interested in Ja.” (Tim Bontemps, 53:25)

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5. Around the League: All-Star Voting & Other Observations

Discussed (55:04–56:55):

• All-Star Voting:
  • Cade Cunningham led player voting in the East, Steph was only sixth among the media.
  • European stars (Doncic, Wembanyama) still face “anti-Euro sentiment” until they win titles. (Windhorst, 56:06)
• Other Quick Hits:
  • Deni Avdija oddly high in votes, general sense of “pushback” to hype for international players.
  • Benign banter about the Raptors ownership and Canadian media.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:51 — Start of content, Warriors’ injury context
• 02:55 — Jimmy Butler’s injury and impact
• 06:45 — Kuminga discussion
• 13:00 — Hopes for Warriors’ trade deadline
• 18:25 — Knicks’ recent collapse
• 22:00 — Windhorst’s “rot in the soul” quote
• 26:00 — Brunson’s players-only meeting
• 29:59 — Dolan’s Finals expectation fallout
• 33:23 — Celtics, Pistons, and defensive dominance
• 36:41 — Cade’s value & All-Star voting
• 41:49 — Pistons’ situation vs. OKC
• 44:44 — Kyrie as Pistons’ theoretical missing piece
• 47:02 — Raptors CEO Pelley’s on-the-record defense of Webster
• 53:25 — League’s reluctance on Morant
• 56:06 — Anti-Euro sentiment in all-star player votes

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• "There is a rot in the soul of this team right now..." – Windhorst on the Knicks' collapse (22:00)
• "He’s a maniac worker. If there’s anybody who’s gonna come back from this thing in a shorter time, it is probably Jimmy..." – Leung on Jimmy Butler’s work ethic and the toll of his injury (14:24)
• “If he [Kyrie] was healthy and available and they could get him… I would tell you I think Detroit could win the title." – Leung on the Pistons’ ceiling (44:44)

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

The episode is marked by a mix of sharp analysis, frank assessments, and bemused frustration—particularly regarding the Warriors’ unlucky fate and the Knicks' self-inflicted misery. There’s respect for Detroit’s patience but a sense of “don’t waste the moment.” The mood is most somber for Golden State (end of an era?) and most cautionary for the Knicks (“culture rot”). Throughout, the insiders combine granular NBA insight with unvarnished opinions, making for both a useful catch-up and a compelling snapshot of where the league stands just ahead of the 2026 trade deadline.

Transcript

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Wendy Leung]

Foreign.

[Tim Bontemps]

Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from the Xfinity Mobile Arena, I think it's called. I just don't remember. I'm not trying to be flippant. In Philadelphia, where he's going to watch the 76ers play the Phoenix Suns on Tuesday night is Tim Bontemps.

[Wendy Leung]

Hello everybody. Yes, a battle of two teams that are in wildly different places than they were a year ago, both much happier.

[Tim Bontemps]

And in different places than they were when we thought they were at the start of the season where we were both kind of. I mean, I remember when I was in the, in the preseason I saw Daryl Morey over in the Middle east and I was like, man, I'm really sorry that your roster is so messed up, you know, because at all these injuries and stuff. And he's like, well, we're trying, actually, if you want the truth. I said I'm sorry that your injury situation is so bleeped up. And he said, well, we're working very hard to unbleap it and it's been unbleeped. And the Suns as well. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, is Bam McMahon.

[Brian Windhorst]

Howdy partners. Just got a little bit of time at home. I'm waiting on the warriors to come through and unfortunately it's kind of a sad tale for that team at this point.

[Tim Bontemps]

By the way, you may have to speak to the Mavericks, who are they don't. They're not doing the tanking thing correctly. They won three straight blowouts.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, it's very difficult to out tank the scrappy Utah Jazz and frankly it's very hard to lose to the New York Knicks at this point. And that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, we'll talk about that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, we'll get to that in a little bit.

[Tim Bontemps]

We will. But you mentioned the very disappointing developments late Monday night. The warriors won, where they won their 12th out of 16 as they continue to dominate their homestand. But in, in a move that will potentially have wide ranging effects both this year and into the future, Jimmy Butler tore his right ACL during the game. Huge Bummer for any NBA player, but particularly a player at age 36. Our guy Jeff Staats who runs in street clothes has all the injury database. He said it's the second oldest player in NBA history and since 2005, since his database to have a torn ACL because frankly players don't. Not that many players play that long and it's obviously a career threatening injury. So Bon Thames this obviously the warriors were trying to get some traction. This changes what the warriors are looking at in the short term, medium term because there's a trade deadline in two weeks and long term because Jimmy Butler has $50 million on his contract, 50 something million next year and you know, I'm not sure what he's going to be able to do next year. So a league shaking development Monday night.

[Wendy Leung]

Yeah, I mean, look, Slater and I have been talking really for the past five, six weeks about this current stretch the warriors are in. They had a 19 game stretch against a lot of teams, a lot of winnable games, a lot of home games ending with this game tonight, Tuesday night, obviously last night for those listening and watching against the Toronto Raptors where It was a 19 game stretch. They went into it at.500. I was like, all right, where are they going to be at the end of this stretch? Can they go 13 and 6? Can they go 12 and 7? Can they go 14 and 5? Can they get 6, 7, 8 games over.500? And really give Mike Dunleavy in the front office of the warriors reason to be aggressive in trying to improve the team? Right. Could they do essentially what they did last year where they were in a similar position? They made a run in the middle of the season, gave the warriors reason to go get Jimmy Butler for a modest price. And they went on to make the second round of the playoffs. And as Steve Kerr said at that faithful press conference about a month ago on Christmas Eve, they succeeded in giving themselves a chance, which is what they're trying to do every year with Steph Curry. And the challenge now is I don't know how the warriors give themselves a chance in the short or medium term with this Jimmy Butler contract on the books. It's a very difficult proposition. Even if you want to say, okay, let's say Jimmy Butler comes back less than a year from now. As you said, you're talking about a guy who's in his mid to late 30s, he's got a lot of miles on him, who already wasn't the most athletic guy, is now trying to come off a knee injury at this stage. Of his career. That's a hard thing to do. If he takes a year like Kyrie Irving is probably on pace to take about a year, right? That means he's out until essentially next year's trade deadline. For a team that's got Steph Curry in his late 30s and Draymond Green in his mid to late 30s and is trying to be competitive now, that's a gigantic contract on their books that doesn't allow them to do anything. And you don't know what Jimmy Butler is going to look like when he comes back. If you want to go into the market and try to use, say, you say, all right, Jimmy Butler's sort of just a salary slot. You want to try to trade him. Okay, well, if you want to try to trade him, the problem is he is now the same sort of. Sort of empty giant contract on the books of whoever you're trading for. Let's just make up a deal. So you call Dallas, say, hey, Dallas, you got Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis is going to play. Why don't we do Jimmy Butler for Anthony Davis? Right? The problem. Well, the problem. The problem for. Well, I know the problem for a team like Dallas, right, is they're trying to save money. They're, in theory, trying to get out of this Anthony Davis contract. Now you've got Jimmy Butler on your books. Maybe Jimmy Butler comes back early to middle of next season and looks like the same Jimmy Butler, but that still doesn't allow you to do anything else with that money. And it's, it's, it's just, it. It all becomes extraordinarily difficult to see what the path forward is other than the Warriors. Probably just have to wait now, see where they finish. I would say they need to play Jonathan Kaminga the rest of the season, see what he can look like. Because Steve Kerr.

[Tim Bontemps]

How many times have we said that in the last three years?

[Brian Windhorst]

How enthusiastic was Steve Kerr when asked about Kaminga post game? Well, absolutely.

[Wendy Leung]

I mean, sure. I mean, Steve, I mean, look, the war, it's. It's an awful situation for Golden State on a hundred levels, right? But at the end of the day, I just don't know what move they. I mean, they were already not good enough.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, that, that, that's it.

[Wendy Leung]

Like, they can't. There, it's not. There's not a move on the board. I mean, look, the only thing I could say is if in the next two weeks Giannis Tennikounmpo announces he wants to be traded, which I do not think is going to happen, but if he did that, the warriors could in theory, and this is all in theory, to be clear, they could. They have their picks to trade. They have Brandon Pajemski, they have other young guys. You could say to the Bucks, the best you're going to do is Jimmy's salary as a make weight. Some young guys in our picks, which wouldn't be the worst trade, particularly if you're Milwaukee. The best asset they're getting in that trade is their pick in this year's draft, which could be as high as the second pick in the draft. And that is a world where maybe that is a way out of this situation for Golden State. However, I don't think that's happening. That would require Golden State to then pony up all of its assets for Giannis. Now, I don't think Giannis asked for a trade anyway. But the point is, if you're looking at this as a Warriors fan and you're going, how are the warriors going to be competitive right now? I think the overwhelming likely scenario is you just have to wait till the summer, see where things land, and then hope that Jimmy Butler is back in the fall. Because I just don't know what the other path is right now for them.

[Brian Windhorst]

And look, Jimmy being back in the fall is awfully optimistic. I mean, you've got Fred Van Vliet trying to come back for the playoffs, seven months removed from an ACL right now. But obviously I've talked to a lot of people about ACL recovery since Kyrie went down, and I'm told, you know, the return can be anywhere from, I mean, seven months would be historically extreme, but that eight to 12 month range, but really the guy's not the same again until about 18 months out. And 18 months out for Jimmy, like, man, you're.

[Wendy Leung]

That's his next contract you're getting after his deal's done.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, you're getting way deep into his 30s. He's nearing 40 at that point. And look, I don't think that the warriors, regardless of what was going to happen here with a healthy Jimmy, even if they took a swing in the trade market, I don't think they were really going to become contenders this year. But they could have been a fun, competitive team. They had, they'd been winning lately. You know, they definitely could have been a team that matched what they did last year, where they get to the second round and put up a fight. I think it's. I don't know how they are going to be able to get to the first round at this point. They probably don't fall out of the play in picture, but that's more because.

[Wendy Leung]

That'S by default, if nothing else. And that's also assuming Steph stays healthy, because if Steph gets hurt, even if they're trying to win games, it's going to be hard.

[Brian Windhorst]

But the idea of using Jimmy in a trade when he's owed $57 million next year when he might not play is like, good luck.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, it could happen. So first off, first off, Jimmy makes 35% of the cap. Kuminga makes about 15. That's 50% of your cap. I know they spend over the cap, but that's a huge amount of investment that's not playing. So you're gonna have to do something with Kaminga, you know, like play them or trade them. But you can't have 50% of your team, you know, down like that. When one of them is healthy, that's number one. Number two is one of the things that when you talk about what Golden State was going to do, it was like, well, you know, if they're going to make a huge trade, you know, if they're going to chase. And I don't want to get stuck to any players now because aggregation. But if they were going to make a trade, you know, you're looking at players who are making 40, 50 million, and the problem that they were running into, well, while they're not trading Steph, they're not trading Butler, and are they really throwing Draymond into a trade with Jonathan Kaminga? That answer was, you know, very dubious, very unlikely. Like, you know, there was some like, well, what about this? You know, this was. So one thing I will say, and I can't see it happening now, but if you get to the summer and you're looking at Jimmy Butler as you're then looking at him as an expiring contract, I think it's 56 million next year.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's 56.8.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, 57. It makes it a little bit more feasible for Golden State to entertain bigger contracts to trade for. Not in a good way. It's a consequence. It's a consequence of losing it. But now at least their decision making becomes a little bit more clear. And I'll point out that, you know, in. In January, which was eight games, you know, Butler was playing his best basketball. He was. I'm looking at his stats from the last eight games. 21 points, five and a half rebounds, five assists, shooting 53% from the field, like he was just powering up and really helping them. So you Know, like, as you try to project what they're going to be like, they're losing a guy who was driving this, you know, this streak. So, you know, I, I agree with you, Bon Temps. I think it's unlikely that we see anything happen the next two weeks. But I do think that unfortunately, and I, and I, and I, I don't mean to be crude because this guy is, you know, is still sitting, you know, on a couch, like, not even had surgery yet. But when you talk to people in the league today, they're like, they might have to trade him. They might have to.

[Brian Windhorst]

But this summer or before the deadline.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, I don't think, I don't think the deadline's feasible.

[Brian Windhorst]

But, but, and that. So this, this becomes a lost season, which is a shame. Again, I don't think they were going to be contending probably. They just won 12:15 with Jimmy as a driver. Well, I mean, it's a lost season.

[Wendy Leung]

In terms of having a realistic chance to have a chance of making a run they're not making unless they, unless they make, unless they make a trade between now and February 5th which will hold out that possibility.

[Brian Windhorst]

What hope are you holding out here, Wendy?

[Tim Bontemps]

Just because I've been in the NBA for, or I've been around the NBA for 24 years and I've seen stuff, so I'm just not trying to close doors.

[Wendy Leung]

I would say without a trade, you can't logically make an argument that they can do what Steve Kerr said they hope to do, which is have a chance to make a run in the west, especially. Right. If they have, if they make a trade, okay, then we'll see. Like, you know, I, I don't know what will happen if they do that, but if, if they don't move Jimmy between now and then, I, I just struggle to see the deal they're going to make that's going to allow them to have a chance. And it's, it's not through any fault of their own. It's just like Jimmy's awesome. And even with Jimmy and Steph, they still were a team that occasionally had really high highs. And yes, they've done very well in this stretch with a ton of home games, with a lot of winnable games, but I don't think any of us were sitting here 24 hours ago thinking, they can beat the Thunder, they can beat the Wolves, they could beat the spurs, they could beat the Rockets, they could beat the Nuggets.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like they're an eighth place team.

[Wendy Leung]

Like they could maybe get the six they could maybe win a series if it broke. Right. But, you know, we were looking at them as like, okay, if they turn Kaminga into another piece, okay, maybe then they can make a little run. But that was assuming it was Jimmy and Stefan a piece. And in that. In that case, Draymond still being a very good defensive player for them now, it's.

[Tim Bontemps]

It.

[Wendy Leung]

It stinks. But it's just. It's hard to see. It's just hard to see how they get there.

[Tim Bontemps]

This is.

[Wendy Leung]

And it's for Jimmy Butler, like, this is a guy who's had an incredible career, a Hall of Fame player, obviously had a great run in Miami. I didn't end great, but, you know, getting. Getting to a couple finals. Like, you know, he's. He's had a great career. And this. This added. You know, it's been a. It's been fun seeing him in Golden State. Like, him and Steph have been a fun combo. And, like, they had success last year, and they had a chance to be a factor this year. And, you know, I mean, he. He's a maniac worker. If there's anybody who's going to come back from this thing in a shorter time, it is probably Jimmy. But it's a lot to ask, like McMahon said. And, you know, it just. It's just a bummer. It's just a bummer for. For them. And it. You know, it. It. For a market that already was limited in terms of buyers, seemingly the warriors seem like a buyer. And if you're. If you're somebody that's just interested generally in trades happening, I think this makes it harder for trades to happen, too.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Although maybe they come off Kuminga a little bit more liberally, depending on, you know, depending on what they're going to do. I think it also depends on, like, do they really intend to play Kamingka? Like. I know. I know it sounds. I know it sounds like common sense. You lose this guy, you just. You can't have a player of that level, you know, inactive. But.

[Wendy Leung]

Well, especially when Steve has repeated. The thing Steve has said over and over again is you can't play him. Draymond and Jimmy together, and he needs to play in long stretches. Well, now Jimmy's not playing the spot is there. So I. I feel like if for. No. If for nothing else, for the. For his value, that going forward, if you want to try to get the most out of him, you have to have some detente and play him.

[Tim Bontemps]

If you're looking for something, you know. Yes. Build up. Kuminga's value because he does have a very tradable contract, a team option for next year. So if you pick it up you he becomes expiring and a prospect player.

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

Fun times. You left New York for the weekend and all hell broke loose.

[Wendy Leung]

It was breaking right.

[Tim Bontemps]

So the Knicks got blasted on Monday by the I shouldn't say they're tanking Mavericks.

[Brian Windhorst]

They're not.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're not.

[Brian Windhorst]

But they're, they're, they're decimated. I mean, they're a Mavericks team that's got two max players who aren't active right now They're a Maz team. Look, sure, Cooper Flag played, but it was Moussa Sise who was just devastating the Knicks. And you know why he was devastating the Knicks? Because he plays hard. You know what the Knicks aren't doing right now? Playing hard.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, they were down by 30 in the first half of that game or close to it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Max Christie lighting them up too.

[Tim Bontemps]

Max Christie had a whole bunch of threes. Okay, so the knicks have lost nine of 11. If you go back and look, you know they won the, the, the NBA cup in Vegas. I think they got to 23 and 9. I think at one point their record. And so that's not a small sample size. That's you know, more than a third of the season. And you know, they're 2 and 9. I believe basically since the curse of the ribbon in that stretch they've had a bottom five offense and a bottom five defense. Between the opening day and Christmas they had the number three offense in the league. They, I think in this 11 game stretch are like 27th or 26th.

[Wendy Leung]

25Th.

[Tim Bontemps]

25Th. And defensively they're 28th by the way.

[Brian Windhorst]

Two and nine tied for the worst record in the league during that stretch.

[Wendy Leung]

Yeah, with.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't even know.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was actually just about to relook that up.

[Wendy Leung]

But it's several, several teams. Utah, Brooklyn and New Orleans. Yeah, it's terrible.

[Brian Windhorst]

Tanking and tanking and the Knicks, so the title contending New York Knicks as far as Dolan's concerned.

[Tim Bontemps]

So Josh. Yeah, that's, we'll get to that. So Josh Hart missed some games, Brunson missed some games, but they both were back for this one. Miles McBride missed some games in there. He was in. I mean they're healthy right now and you know they did shoot the ball. So they had a favorable schedule early on. Bon Sims, remember they had like at one point they had like six or maybe six or seven more. Six, seven. Is that still a thing?

[Brian Windhorst]

More afraid to do the thing because of the camera?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Do not engage the AI. They had a favorable schedule coming out, but they were really chugging on offense. I think they, in the month of December, I think they shot 41% on three pointers, which is I think was number one. And they've come way back. I had Stats Williams look this up because in talking to some folks in New York, it was meant to been meant mentioned to me that you know, you hear this from time to time. You hear me talk about it. But you know, shooting luck, shooting variants, the. During this 11 game stretch, they're shooting much worse than they're 27th in shooting variants. In other words, they're.

[Brian Windhorst]

I hear you, but I know I.

[Tim Bontemps]

Don'T even like saying it. I'm just saying let's not even talk.

[Brian Windhorst]

About whether they're making shots if they're not better than they're guarding. If you don't put forth more effort than they are. Like Mitchell Robinson looks like the only guy who's playing hard and they can't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Play in that many minutes. I mean, you know, he's a very limited on purpose role player right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, there is a rot in the soul of this team right now. Like seriously, how else do you explain a team that is supposed to be a title contender going 2 and 9 with this bad of a defense? And you've got the Mavericks coming into Madison Square Garden for a nationally televised game on MLK Day and that's the effort that you put up. I mean that is a. The Mavericks missing two max players. The Mavericks who are limping towards a single digit lottery pick blew you out of your building in front of a national TV audience. I mean it's a com. This is a complete embarrassment for a team that fired their coach in the summer for the crime of not winning the conference finals that they got to. There's some real issues that are much deeper rooted than shooting variants with the New York Knicks right now.

[Tim Bontemps]

Agree. So, you know, I think there was some red flags on this west coast trip that they went on. This game that they played in San Francisco where they lost to the warriors and Draymond Green had a flagrant value. Just tackled Carl Towns at one point. And then after the game, Knicks fans and I think some players noticed that Mike was embracing Draymond. They obviously won a championship together.

[Wendy Leung]

Didn't exactly defend him in the post game comments either, which was definitely noticed.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that was a situation also where Carl had gotten a few fouls in that game, which, you know, he fouls, it's he rebounds and he fouls. You know, you know, these are two things that Carl Towns is going to do and I think Carl wanted Mike to review them and Mike didn't. And you know, maybe he had his analyst there saying, you're not going to get him, I don't know. But like that created a cold wind through the locker room. And then they go to Sacramento. Actually they were in Sacramento right before that and you know, this was Mike Brown's return game to like, you know, go back to Sacramento. And the Knicks completely rolled over in that game. There was no fight for their coach in that game. So there's that. There's the fact that, you know, Mike and Carl Townse have not had chemistry in regards to, you know, Mike has not shown interest in, you know, setting the offense up for Towns. Like that was something that was sort of established in the preseason all season.

[Wendy Leung]

Yeah. Going back to the very start of the year, that's been an ongoing thing.

[Tim Bontemps]

And Towns has still put up good numbers. His shooting percentages are down, but, you know, he had 18 rebounds in this game against the Mavericks, so there's that. You know, Bridges has. Bridges is actually shooting better from three than he did last year. His numbers last year were bad, but like, Bridges hasn't been his best og and you know, OG Anunoby had that injury. I feel like he. I don't feel like he's played terribly. His shooting percentages are okay over the last.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nobody's playing well.

[Wendy Leung]

No, I mean, I mean, I meant over the course of the season. Like those two guys over the course of the season have played well. Nobody's playing well lately.

[Brian Windhorst]

They, they fired Tibbs and they look like a team that is rolling over on their coach midway through his first season. Like, there's not a nice way to put this. And you know, people point the finger at Cat because him, you know, his issues with Mike Brown have been kind of like that weird little cold war has been kind of front and center. It'd be one thing if he was an exception here. If you looked at, well, that one guy is the problem. You can't scapegoat Cat and say he's the reason that the whole team is playing with minimal effort right now. I mean, you got Jalen Brunson midway through the second quarter trying to give a rah rah speech. And they went out and bad went worse after that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, by the way, so Ramona Shelburn reported on Tuesday that after the game Brunson called a players only meeting. I don't know whether you think that gets anything done, but, you know, in this meeting, supposedly, according to Ramona, they emphasize that the getting them out of this is, is in that room, not the coaching staff, that they've got to do it as a team. So, you know, to note that their next game is against Brooklyn at home. They. If there's. That if there's a get well team, it's against Brooklyn, but Brooklyn is going to play hard.

[Wendy Leung]

That is a fraught game. That is a fraught game for the home team. I will just say that James Dolan left at halftime of Monday's game. And I would advise the Knicks to not lose to the Nets at the Garden in the middle of this stretch. I would just advise that, well, what's.

[Brian Windhorst]

He going to do, fire the coach halfway through a season that he fired a coach who was successful?

[Wendy Leung]

I'm just telling you, I have been in New York a long time and the Nets have all the Knicks picks going out in the future. They obviously made this trade, which they hadn't made a trade in 40 years before they made that trade. There is famously animus between the two franchises for a variety of reasons and I just would advise the Knicks to not lose to the Nets at home in the middle of this stretch.

[Tim Bontemps]

Do you think the feature story that I published on Tuesday about Mike Brown and Jordi Fernandez's 20 year relationship will be getting lots of flowers and high praise in New York?

[Wendy Leung]

I would assume no at the moment.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sometimes you have good timing with stories and sometimes you don't.

[Brian Windhorst]

Sometimes you don't when there's specimens scheduled out in advance.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's a nice story about Jordy Fernandez and Mike Brown. If you, yes, you can do it in a month.

[Wendy Leung]

The Knicks Last year under Tom Thibodeau, the Knicks were a very good offensive team and they were an above average defensive team. Not way above average, but they were fifth and 13th in offense and defensive rating. And 13th was about as good as you could hope to do in my opinion. Defensively with a team anchored by Jalen Brunson and Carl Towns, that is a challenging thing to try to navigate and it's something that Tom Thibodeau did a pretty good job of. And even before this stretch, if you go back to December 30, the day before they had the collapse against the spurs on New Year's Eve that started this 2 and 9 spiral they're in the Knicks were third in offense, which is very good, obviously, but they were going to be a very good offensive team and they were down to 16th in defense. So they were already a little worse even, even with the hot start they were on. And to your point, Brian, yes, they haven't hit shots in this stretch, but the, to me, the fact that they're 28th in defense and as McMahon laid.

[Brian Windhorst]

Out, when and better than who, like.

[Wendy Leung]

Let'S just say better than Brooklyn and Utah, I believe are the two teams.

[Brian Windhorst]

Are full speed ahead to trying to maximize their odds in the lottery.

[Wendy Leung]

Exactly. So when you're, when you look at.

[Tim Bontemps]

It that way, they're trying to make Jordy Fernandez play seven Rookies at one time they're trying to make seven rookies.

[Wendy Leung]

I would also assume Nets, I assume the Brooklyn Nets will be going all out to win this game on Wednesday.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think not another one the rest of the season.

[Wendy Leung]

Well, maybe the game against one more time.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think the game against the Nets.

[Wendy Leung]

I suspect they're going to be interested to win.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think, I think that is exactly right.

[Wendy Leung]

Yes. Again, I've been around these two teams for a long time. I suspect they're going to want to win the game. Doesn't mean they will. And maybe, maybe the players only, I mean players only mean it can't hurt. I mean nothing can hurt at this point.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Knicks organization, and I'm talking about Jim Dolan and Leon Rose is number one highly invested in this particular roster. Okay.

[Wendy Leung]

You know, well, and let's remind everybody to that point. Jim Dolan hadn't done an interview in two years and he goes on the Carton show.

[Tim Bontemps]

Two weeks ago he did go on that, the podcast.

[Wendy Leung]

He hadn't done an interview in two years.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. He took questions from me.

[Wendy Leung]

He hadn't done an interview in two years. In two years he comes back and does the Carton show and says, quote, we gotta make the Finals and we should win them. Since then the Knicks have gone two and six.

[Brian Windhorst]

And this was after refusing to raise the ribbon for the NBA Cup.

[Wendy Leung]

That's right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, so first off, we'll get bigger things.

[Tim Bontemps]

They have heavily invested in this team. They have, you know, extended all these players, extended og, extended Bridges, traded for Towns. The Brunson thing is a no brainer. But they, and after they had their.

[Wendy Leung]

Best season in 25 years, they fired the coach.

[Tim Bontemps]

They fired the coach.

[Brian Windhorst]

Then look, someday after years of infighting, by the way, some.

[Tim Bontemps]

Someday we'll have a 30 for 30 on the talks between the Knicks and the, and the Bucks that happened in August about what went on there. But if the Knicks really wanted to trade for Giannis, then it didn't show because it never really got traction. So they, they and that's pretty much what Jim Dolan said on, on wfa. And he was like, I've learned not to chase a shiny object. So he's. So they are heavily invested in this roster and in Mike Brown who I agree when they fired Tibbs, that wasn't the guy they thought they were going to hire. But however they have hired him and they have backed him up and he has had success. Whatever you want to call the NBA cup, they won it.

[Wendy Leung]

Okay, listen until December 30th things were fine.

[Tim Bontemps]

I agree. And so that's why I believe that the organization is probably got to stick with it because they're, they're, they're too deep in and that includes trades and the coach.

[Wendy Leung]

That's why I say I would advise them to beat the Nets. That's not with any knowledge of anything to be clear, but I would advise them to not lose to the Brooklyn Nets on Wednesday.

[Brian Windhorst]

What did I tell you boys about the first opponent that a Knicks coach has to be The New York Knicks.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Celtics are on the list too.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, the Knicks coach has to beat the New York Knicks first because it's such a challenging culture and that's why, that's why they haven't had success in a quarter century until these last couple years. The culture starts at the very very top and there's culture rot in that franchise right now.

[Tim Bontemps]

The one thing I will say is despite losing nine of 11, they are only, they are still in third place. They only lost one spot in the standings and there are two games in the loss column behind Boston. But Boston and the Knicks do not look close in the standings and we're.

[Wendy Leung]

Going to guess what they also are two games in the loss column ahead of seventh.

[Brian Windhorst]

Maybe they can raise the play in championship banner. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.

[Wendy Leung]

Kraft Mac and Cheese is better than 90s hip hop. We'll remind you of your childhood without making you feel feel incredibly old. Kraft Mac and Cheese. Best thing ever.

[Tim Bontemps]

So we mentioned that the Celtics are now the two seed knees. They actually have been for a few days now. They played a great game against the 1 seed on Martin Luther King Day in Detroit, by the way. So Detroit wins that game late. The Celtics have had have still been playing well. I went back and looked. So the Thunder held the Cavs to their worst offensive game all year maybe in several years on Martin Luther King Day. And I will just say this about the Cavs. They're dealing with more injuries. Darius Garland is out. They said seven to 10 days, but it's going to be longer. Last year, you know, it was in January when the Cavs had That game against the Thunder, it was one of the best regular season games of last year. And the Cavs won that game and it was like, oh, like, you know, maybe the Cavs would have a fighter's chance, you know, against the Thunder in a series. They lost this one by 30 and on their home court. And you're not saying that. And the Thunder are banged up. No Jalen Williams, no Isaiah Hardenstein and Alex Crusoe got hurt in that game and left. So obviously.

[Brian Windhorst]

And the other Jalen Williams did too.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right. So you know, you're talking about the Knicks struggling, the Cavs, those are the teams that we thought would be 12 in the east not getting it done. The teams that, the teams that are 12 in the east that are getting it done, Detroit and Boston. So bontemps, I went and looked this up. So anyway, where I started was Thunder defense, you know, bringing the Cavs to their knees. Like they bring every, you know, as almost every opponent, like terrible shooting percentage, super high turnovers. That always happens against the Thunder because that's who they are. But you go back to December 1st, so we're talking six, seven weeks now, the best defense in the league has been owned by the Pistons and they're.

[Brian Windhorst]

Number two for the year. And there's a gap between the Thunder and the Pistons. There's just about as big of a gap between the Pistons and the third ranked Spurs. The Pistons are an elite defensive team, an elite defensive team with young star power that is they have as big of a lead in the Eastern Conference right now as the Thunder do in the West.

[Wendy Leung]

They are on a 62 win pace. They are 3110 at the halfway mark. They are tied with Boston for second in net rating at 7 at 7.4 plus per 100. As McMahon said, they're second in the league in defense and they're 11 for the whole season. They're second in league in defense and they're 11th in offense. And to me at this point, watching the game last night, I still am a little hesitant on Detroit in the playoffs because they only have one guy who could dribble. And like when it gets down to it, Cade Cunningham is awesome and like last night he went 4 for 17.

[Tim Bontemps]

But he trust they have a number of guards. But it's about when it gets down.

[Brian Windhorst]

To it, one creator, one real deal.

[Tim Bontemps]

Creator who by the way has a real quick aside. Yeah, I know the all star voting with the players is wonky and laughable. Like friend of the pop, George Niang.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he deserved those 10 votes. He got.

[Tim Bontemps]

He got 10 votes. Bronnie James got two votes. I do think we should point out that the players voted their number one highest vote getter among the players in the east was Cade. So like talk about a respect thing.

[Wendy Leung]

Well, look, Cade last night had 14 assists and no turnovers. So yes, he went 4 for 17 from the field. But he has been awesome and he is having a hell of a season. Deserving all star starter, deserving guy in the MVP race. All of that is true. But Detroit is in the same situation I would say that we talked about with Oklahoma City all of last year, which was, was Jalen Williams good enough to be the second perimeter scorer that you really need to be a true championship contending team? Now Jalen Williams went on to have 40 points in the finals with busted wrist. He proved he was good enough to do that. Right. If you look at this Pistons team, Tobias Harris had 25 yesterday. Tobias Harris is a good vet. Tobias Harris is not that guy in the playoffs. Jaden Ivey, you know well, Tobias Harris.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is going to have 40 in the Finals now. Mark it down.

[Wendy Leung]

Listen, I hope he does. Tobias is an awesome dude. That would be a great story.

[Tim Bontemps]

He is a great guy.

[Wendy Leung]

Jaden Ivey played 17 minutes off the bench, hit a couple shots. But Jay Navi was drafted to be that sort of guy to this point through injuries and whatever else, he hasn't been that guy. So with where Detroit is in the standings, I'm not saying they have to push all their chips in, but this season has gone so well and they are in such a strong position that I'll be fascinated to see what they do because if they can get another legitimate threat on the perimeter next to Cade. So it's not just Cade against whatever defense is going up against him because we know in the playoffs if they're going up against somebody in a series, they're going to be completely loaded up to stop Cade. And in this game last night, The Celtics go 13 for 41 from 3. Derrick White was 1 for 11 and 0 for 6 from 3. Like he's probably going to be better than that in a playoff series. Like Jason Tatum could be back. He had a 50 minute workout in front of the media for after shoot around on Monday. I would take that as a clear indication that Jason Tatum is working to get back and wanted people to see he was out there. It was not a mistake. He did it in front of the media.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, because there's plenty of times where guys work out. Hey, hey, hey, the, the, The Bulls.

[Wendy Leung]

Closed 100% out and if he wanted.

[Tim Bontemps]

The bowl close, that was commonplace from a guy coming back from injury.

[Wendy Leung]

Absolutely. Trust me, if Jason Tatum wanted the ball to be closed, the ball would have been closed and the bowl was not closed. So if you're looking at this matchup last night and you're Detroit, I mean look, we just talked about it. The Knicks are a mess, the Cavs are a mess. All these other, you know, Phillies had been very up and down. All sorts of obvious giant injury questions. Orlando has both been ineffective and has big injury questions. Like all these teams in the east have big question marks. And Detroit to this point has a rock solid defense. They've got a legitimate superstar player now in cade like they have all the pieces you would want to be a legitimate championship threat except for that second score. And I, it will be fascinating to see if they go try to get.

[Tim Bontemps]

This enters the Maury now and February. What was the maury principle of 5%? Yeah, I'd say Chance. I'd say they qualify. They're on pace for 62 wins.

[Brian Windhorst]

They qualify there. But if you compared them to OKC last year, I think they are more in the mind frame of OKC the previous year. We remember. What did OKC do that previous year?

[Tim Bontemps]

At the deadline, they ordered their breakfast.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, they bas. They traded for or they finished. They were finishing the breakfast at that point. But they, they traded for Gordon Hayward, which was essentially a move that cleared cap space that summer.

[Tim Bontemps]

They were hoping he was going to contribute a little bit. It just was. That was really.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, and he was a dud. But it cleared the cap space that summer for them to go get Isaiah Hartenstein. And they actually facilitated a move. They, they facilitated Daniel Gafford of Dallas. They gave Mavericks their pick then to get a swap in 28. They're kind of rubbing their hands together about that right now. And I point this out because, you know, the Pistons came through Dallas recently. I talked to some of their folks. They are very much in a patient, methodical mindset. Now, I ain't gonna lie when I mentioned Jaren Jackson Jr. To some people, some, you know, you could see a little twinkle in their eyes, but so opportunistic. But my, my, they're talking more. Hey, we've got that Schroeder exception. We could use that to facilitate a deal. You know, gets another asset, you know, probably like a first round pick or something like that out of. They're more in that mindset than they are the finishing. Oh, got to get the finishing piece now. And part of the. Part of that, though, is they want to give the guys that they have a chance to prove who they are or who they're not come playoff time. The other thing is they didn't get an extension done with Jalen Duran. I'm just here to tell you what he wanted is what he's going to get. Maybe a little bit more than that. This is going to become a very expensive roster soon. So just like OKC a couple years ago, their decisions aren't just about this playoff run, but about trying to keep a window extended for as long as possible.

[Wendy Leung]

That's all fine. And I'm not saying they need to empty the. The chamber to get something like trade all the picks for something now. I'm not saying they got to do that. But they're 31 and 10. Like, they. This is not like, this is not Oklahoma City. It's just not. It's a totally different situation. And the Thunder had a great team for the better part of a decade. Were bad for a year and a half, and then we're right back again. The Pistons have been mired in disaster land for a generation. And the. The Eastern Conference is also not the West. This is. This is a freeway of space for them to get in. And again, I don't think they've got to. I'm not saying, I'm not advocating trade all their picks and get some guy. I'm not saying they got to do that. But like, they could just get another reliable perimeter score to plug in there.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let me ask you this. Would you. If you're Trajan Langdon and he calls you, Trajan's calling you for advice. What do you think about Michael Porter.

[Wendy Leung]

Jr. Well, I'll tell you the guy that I really want the Pistons to get, who they probably can't get, and I don't know what his health status would be. The guy they need is Kyrie Irving. And I don't know if they can't.

[Brian Windhorst]

Get him this deadline.

[Wendy Leung]

Well, I. That if I was Trajan Langdon, I would want to know where Kyrie's health is at and what the chances of him playing are. That's the call I'd be making. Like Michael Porter would help them. But I don't think Michael Porter is changing their destiny really. But Kyrie Irving, the. The realized version of Kyrie Irving playing next to Cade like he played next to Luka, like he played next to LeBron as a proven playoff scorer.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is exactly right. I mean, that is.

[Wendy Leung]

That's who they need.

[Tim Bontemps]

The thing about Kyrie is that the reason he's such a good off guard, like combo guard playing off a guy like LeBron or I mean I would, I.

[Brian Windhorst]

Or Luca who he went to a finals with.

[Wendy Leung]

No, it's not. They can take his role.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, well, he didn't always admit that that was his role, but he's now gotten to four finals playing alongside those types of guys.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I just, I, you know, listen, you can make calls. I can just tell you the Mavericks very much are playing for Kyrie.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Wendy Leung]

I'm not saying it's happening.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's other players like that who maybe aren't as good as Kyrie. Who's. Who fit that. That's like, I don't want to go down the LeBron rabbit hole, but that's one of the, you know, LeBron had two 60 win seasons playing alongside Mo Williams because while Mo Williams isn't Kyrie Irving, he's. They're the same type of player.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. And you know, I guess, let me take a, let me put a Pistons homer hat on. Are we sure that Jaden Ivey can't be some version of that?

[Tim Bontemps]

We're not sure, but I don't know if he's going to be that by this playoffs, which is what Bontemp's point is.

[Wendy Leung]

And the other thing is Jaden Ivey is about to be a restricted free agent and I'm not sure what his future is there. And again, look, if the Pistons don't do anything, I'll understand it. And I, and I, and to be clear, I do not think they should make some rafts, trade and trade two or three first for some mediocre player to like fit in. Like I brought up Kyrie for a reason. Like he's on a short term deal. He's the exact skill set they need. If he was healthy and available and they could get him, you plug him into that team, I would tell you I think Detroit could win the title. I wouldn't bet on it. But like right now their offense isn't good enough to win the title. I don't think against the elite teams.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, half court offense, they, they, they, they need to get better there. I, I would certainly agree with that. And look, we, we bring up the Pistons and people are kind of wondering about the Pistons not just because of where their record is, but if they want to be aggressive, they absolutely can. They have Tobias Harris expiring contract, which is a nice number. You know, Jay N. Ivey's the kind of guy who teams would be interested in in a trade as a young player flyer. You know, they've got some other guys like that and they have their picks moving forward. Like if the Pistons want to be aggressive, they are well positioned to do so. I just the messaging they've given out is that their mentality is not aggressiveness. Opportunistic maybe not aggressiveness.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think that mentality is reasonable. But we are now at mid season and they're 31 and 10 and they've.

[Wendy Leung]

Been so good that they've at least opened the door. And look, maybe it is a deal like the Gordon Hayward deal. Maybe it is a veteran player that they can get for not a huge price that fits in where they're at and it leaves them open to then make the moves in the summer to get their Isaiah Hartenstein and Alex Crusoe like the warriors or the warriors like the Thunder did that then propelled the Thunder forward the next year. Maybe that's what happened. But I would just like them to do something between now and the deadline to improve this team because yeah, you're right, they could use the shorter thing to take in money. They could do different things. But like you're only going to get so many chances to have this kind of season and it's just sitting right there for them and it will be fascinating to see what they do.

[Tim Bontemps]

There was a very, what I thought was a fascinating story in on sportsnet out of Canada on Tuesday by Michael Grange, who's covered the team in print and on television for probably decades now.

[Wendy Leung]

A long time longer than you probably want to admit. Grange.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, probably much better golfer than you, Wendy. And I definitely hear, I hear he's probably a better pickup basketball player than me, which you know, that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is that right?

[Brian Windhorst]

I hear he can hoop.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think he might have better hips and knees than him at this point.

[Brian Windhorst]

So then he's a choice.

[Tim Bontemps]

Anyway, go on. He had a very good story where he had a very interesting, interesting quote from Keith Pelley, who was the president and CEO of Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment. Just so you know, like there's this one giant entity that owns the Maple Leafs, the Raptors, the Blue Jays, the Toronto fc, the Marlies, their minor league hockey team, probably other stuff. Oh, the Argonauts, I think they all own by the same thing and for years they were owned by two giant cable companies for the most part. And later this year it will all come under one umbrella, the Rogers Corporation, which is run by this guy, Ed Rogers, who will be the new governor. Right now there's a Larry Tannenbaum, who's actually the chairman of the Board of governors. He's a longtime Board of governors. That's just housekeeping. The point is there's transition happening in Toronto. And as part of that transition, Masayu Giri was let go last year and Bobby Webster, their longtime general manager, was promoted to being the head of basketball operations. The reason we say all this is that the point of this story that Michael Grange put out, which is very relevant, is that Keith Pelley went on the record, which is not something you see normally in February near the trade deadline, and he said, and by the way, one of the whispers that had. And Michael refers to this, and this is absolutely true. What are you laughing at?

[Brian Windhorst]

Get to the quote and then we'll put it in.

[Tim Bontemps]

God, I tried to set it up. One of the whispers is that Bobby Webster was on a short contract and that he was under some pressure to improve the roster and that that was going to be a factor at the trade deadline. So all that being said, quote, there is no pressure regarding the trade deadline or Bobby Webster's contract, said pelly. He is 100% aware of that the team is moving in the right direction and I'm convinced Bobby will make the right moves at the right time to make us better. This team, under Bobby's direction, will contend for championships. And he also said that they were working on a contract extension. The reason that is relevant Von Temps is because the Raptors have been connected to John Moran, had been connected to some other names, and frankly, I have heard they've been sort of more aggressive than average in looking for their value of their players. And I also suspect that going on the record right now was an effort to make sure that that rumor that was going through the league was tamped down. So considered that done. We don't see this every day from the Raptors or from a sitting CEO. All going on the record.

[Wendy Leung]

Yeah. And just for one piece of housekeeping.

[Brian Windhorst]

So the.

[Wendy Leung]

The Blue Jays are separate from the rest of that, but they're now all owned. The reason it's relevant is they were. They've been owned by Rogers for a long time and over the past year.

[Tim Bontemps]

And a half, they're not part of Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment, but they're same owners.

[Wendy Leung]

But over the past year and a half, Rogers has consolidated its holdings in mlse and later this year, well, basically on all of mlse. And then they will. Whether they're technically part of it or not, it's all going to be under the same group and that's where, as you said, all these changes have happened with the Raptors. Messiah Jiri is out. They had the search this summer. They said Bobby Webster is going to run the team now. The team is off to a good start. They're currently fourth in the east right now, half game behind the Knicks in third. There has been chatter about them being interested in doing stuff. As we've talked about. The thing that's different about the Raptors and a lot of these other teams, whether it's, you know, Atlanta or Golden State or Miami, any of these other teams we've talked about in terms of what they could potentially do is they have a lot of contracts going out a long time. Their books, they don't. They're not set up to be free and clear money wise. So it did make more sense to me for them to say trade for Anthony Davis than some of these other teams or if you're interested in Ja Morant, to at least entertain the idea of Ja Morant. Though I had not thought they were much of a suitor ultimately for him either. And yeah, you're right, it is interesting that they came out and said this particularly in light of all of these things that are coming to a head with the organization and with the, you know, with the larger organization of mlse. And I do think the Raptors are an interesting team to watch between now and the deadline because as we've talked about, if they are interested in making moves, they have some incentive to make moves. And like we just got talked about with Detroit, the East is wide open. So if you're Toronto and you can add an impact player between now and the deadline, who's to say the Raptors can't make a run in the East? Like I, I'm not going to sit here and really talk against any of these teams at this point with how flawed the group of contenders are.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And there is certainly opportunity there for the Raptors. They position themselves, you know, they've played well enough to where you have to acknowledge that's the case. There was talk around the league about there being win now pressure and prove it type of pressure on Bobby Webster. The fact that you have an on the record quote saying very much that is not the case. We believe essentially the quote says we believe in Bobby Webster. He's going to be here for a while. So that eliminates those whispers said he.

[Tim Bontemps]

Did have a, he does have a very short contract.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. But no, there isn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Actions, words.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, I mean, but not that I. Not that I'm saying it's not true. I'm just saying that, you know, I'm just pointing that out.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's a, it's a pretty significant step to say attach my name to this.

[Tim Bontemps]

I agree.

[Brian Windhorst]

Knowing those whispers are going around the league now, the problem with the rappers trying to upgrade is they're trying to upgrade by using contracts that people don't want. You know. Oh, the other, I thought the other very interesting quote. This was from an anonymous source, but it was a one word quote in terms of whether they could be a Ja Morant team. And it was. No, now it wasn't as clear.

[Tim Bontemps]

Guys, I'll just. When I say guys, I'm talking to our listeners, guys and girls, we're having difficulty as media people who cover the league finding a team that's interested in ja. Now, maybe that's because they don't want to make it sound like they're interested in JA for bargaining purposes, but we're having a difficult time. Trust me, we're all working on.

[Wendy Leung]

As we talked about at the time, there's a reason that Trey Young had one top preferred destination and that's because there weren't a lot of teams interested.

[Tim Bontemps]

And JA declared his preferred destination as Memphis, which he may have a reason for saying that.

[Wendy Leung]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

And listen, none of this is a surprise in terms of the lack of interest in JA because we've been talking about that for months. But Grande's story left the ad possibility more open ended. I can just tell you I don't see that being a two team trade because again, the Mavericks, if they're trading Anthony Davis, they want to shed salary. They want to position themselves to have some flexibility and not a massive luxury tax.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. This is one of the reasons the Raptors have been in the market is because they have some players on big contracts that maybe aren't delivering on the big contracts. And so the idea would be you can move your big contracts for another big contract. But you know, what you're looking for these days is it's okay to have a big contract player who's performing. If you have a big contract player that's not performing, you want him on a short deal. And that's, it's. And that's probably one of the reasons why the Raptors maybe haven't been able to do a deal. And of course it sounds like they're trying to act like they don't care, but they have been making calls so.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, in the case of purdl, it's Not.

[Wendy Leung]

It's also that he has a.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's a bad contract and a bad back. That's a bad combination.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that contract over a hundred million dollars is that they gave out last summer is not looking too great right now. But hey, just on the all star voting, I thought it was a couple of interesting things because they broke out the fan vote, which we already knew, the player vote and the media vote. Steph Curry with sixth in the media vote. Do we hate Steph Curry now?

[Brian Windhorst]

No, just love Anthony Edwards.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Ant had was fourth, Denny Avia 10th amongst players, but finished ahead of both Durant and LeBron in total voting. Because of the media and the fans.

[Brian Windhorst]

I thought a couple other player votes were interesting and not the kind of humorous, oh my gosh, these guys voted for themselves type things. The one player vote, I thought Luka finishing sixth and Wimby finishing seventh in the west was interesting.

[Tim Bontemps]

Amongst the player votes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Amongst the player votes, yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I thought that was interesting. Deni Avia finishing 10th. That leads me to believe that, you know, I mean, Jokic was one, so. But you know, it leads me to believe that they vote for Americans.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think there is still an anti Euro sentiment among players until it's just beyond it. Like, you know, Jan has dealt with it until he had 15, 15 and finals clincher. Joker. Joker dealt with it until, you know, he won championship. I really do think it's something that Europeans still is still a factor until they win a championship. Plus Luke has gotten so much hype and Wimby's gotten so much hype. I think there's a bit of a push back against that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, in the case of Denny Avi, I think it irritates players how he, you know, gets a lot of free throws even though he plays very physically. But playsrs have been playing well. We'll be talking about them, I think soon, but. All right, thank you so much to all of our producers. Thank you to Bontems, thank you to McMahon. Thank you for watching and listening to the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week.

[Brian Windhorst]

Audio Smigos.