Knicks Fire Tom Thibodeau Reaction + NBA Finals Game 1 Preview

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Knicks Fire Tom Thibodeau Reaction + NBA Finals Game 1 Preview"

Date Released: June 5, 2025
Hosts: Brian Windhorst, Tim Bontemps, Marc Stein
Podcast: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Description: Brian Windhorst and ESPN's Insiders delve into life within the NBA, offering in-depth analysis and exclusive insights.

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1. Introduction and Context

The episode kicks off with brief introductions from the hosts, who discuss their travels to Oklahoma City for the NBA Finals. Brian Windhorst humorously remarks on Tim Bontemps' travel woes, setting a lighthearted tone for the conversation.

2. Knicks Fire Tom Thibodeau

a. Decision Overview

The primary focus of the episode centers on the New York Knicks' decision to fire head coach Tom Thibodeau. Despite leading the team to the conference finals and marking the franchise's most successful four-year run in over two decades, the Knicks opted for a coaching change.

• Tim Bontemps [01:24]:
  "Nothing is more exciting than travel talk to open up the podcast. It is NBA media day, but nothing will reinforce the belief that there's not a lot of interest in Midwest Finals other than I've got Coastal Giant transaction story which happened with Tom Thibodeau getting fired on Tuesday."

b. Analyzing the Decision

Marc Stein provides historical context, highlighting Thibodeau's impressive resume and the Knicks' recent successes under his leadership. He questions the rationale behind the abrupt decision despite Thibodeau's accomplishments.

• Marc Stein [02:59]:
  "They've won a playoff series three years in a row, something they hadn't done this century... Tom is a great coach who, over the course of his tenure in the league, has rubbed people over time and wears on people."

c. High Expectations and Future Implications

Brian Windhorst emphasizes the high expectations set by the Knicks' management, particularly Leon Rose's goal of bringing a championship to fans. He draws parallels to past coaching changes in the NBA, cautioning that finding a successor who can elevate the team further is challenging.

• Brian Windhorst [05:15]:
  "If you are firing Tibbs after the most successful four-year run in the franchise's history in a quarter century or more, then you bet it better work."

3. Reactions from Hosts and Analysts

a. Internal Dynamics and Relationships

The hosts discuss the internal dynamics within the Knicks organization, suggesting that personal relationships and internal politics played a significant role in the coaching change.

• Brian Windhorst [07:12]:
  "You have to. To have that hairdo."

• Marc Stein [07:58]:
  "Tibbs and World Wide Wes are both Leon Rose guys, but they are not each other guys."

b. Impact on Team Performance

They acknowledge Thibodeau's tactical adjustments, especially his defensive strategies, but argue that these were insufficient to outweigh the perceived shortcomings in team chemistry and management.

• Tim Bontemps [17:25]:
  "They did a really good job of aligning the players that they acquired to the way the coach wanted to coach."

4. Potential Replacements for Tom Thibodeau

a. Jason Kidd as a Candidate

One of the prominent suggestions is Jason Kidd, currently under contract with another team. The hosts debate the feasibility of hiring a coach still under contract and the potential interest Kidd might have in the Knicks' vacant position.

• Brian Windhorst [09:02]:
  "You have to bring in a relationships guy. And listen, one of the names that's been thrown out there is a man who's under contract with another team, but definitely a guy who has relationships not just with Jaylen Brunson, but with a lot of people in that organization, and that's Jason Kidd."

b. Other Coaching Possibilities

Marc Stein and Tim Bontemps explore other coaching candidates, referencing historical moves and the complexities involved in securing a high-profile coach like Kidd.

• Marc Stein [26:06]:
  "The Knicks do have a basically fake first-round pick from the Washington Wizards that I think if they end up having to, quote, unquote, trade for a coach, that would be potentially a fairly easy thing to move in a deal."

5. Emotional and Personal Insights

a. Respect for Thibodeau

The hosts express personal respect and sympathy for Thibodeau, acknowledging his dedication and the emotional toll of the firing.

• Marc Stein [17:25]:
  "Tom Thibodeau is at the center of a lot of that stuff."

• Marc Stein [19:00]:
  "Tom Thibodeau, I'm here to tell you, is a great guy. He has a wonderful sense of humor."

b. Managing Team Dynamics

Brian Windhorst points out Thibodeau's challenges in managing relationships, especially with key players like Jalen Brunson, which may have contributed to the decision to let him go.

• Brian Windhorst [07:57]:
  "Some players were grumbling about their roles... Tibbs is not totally without fault, but damn, man, the guy just got done off a conference finals."

6. NBA Finals Game 1 Preview

Shifting focus, the hosts provide an in-depth preview of Game 1 of the NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers.

a. Team Strengths and Strategies

They analyze both teams' defensive and offensive strengths, highlighting key players and potential game-changers.

• Brian Windhorst [35:02]:
  "They've got five languages, they're very adaptable... The strength on strength of this Oklahoma City defense against the Pacers offense."

b. Key Players to Watch

The conversation highlights standout players like Shay Gilders, Ben McLemore, and Luca Doncic, discussing their impact and potential performances in the series.

• Marc Stein [40:08]:
  "Shay Che had a good line today when he said that the Pacers go about the way they play in that they're stubborn and how they stick to what they want to do all the time."

c. Competitive Dynamics and Narratives

The hosts delve into the contrasting personalities and competitive styles of the teams, making the series a compelling watch.

• Tim Bontemps [40:26]:
  "Shay talking about impressed, he doesn't... And he doesn't play like a robot, but what he is, is silky smooth and under control all the time in every situation."

7. Memorable Quotes and Highlights

• Tim Bontemps [24:12]:
  "The proper team won. The better team won. I mean, could the Knicks..."

• Marc Stein [38:07]:
  "Shay Gilders Alexander has kind of played his Canadian cousin in the last round. Sir. Canada was fully engaged in that."

• Tim Bontemps [41:18]:
  "He learned that he was giving his opponent in advance. I actually think that somebody should slip this, like, send this blind to Luca's phone."

8. Closing Remarks and Future Episodes

The episode concludes with anticipation for the upcoming Finals, teasing a special guest appearance after Game 1. The hosts express enthusiasm for the series and the evolving dynamics within the NBA.

• Brian Windhorst [45:11]:
  "I was about to make a Bontemps MVP voting joke. Go on."

• Tim Bontemps [45:15]:
  "All right, I will hopefully see you all."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. Tim Bontemps [01:24]:

   "Nothing is more exciting than travel talk to open up the podcast."

2. Marc Stein [02:59]:

   "Tom is a great coach who, over the course of his tenure in the league, has rubbed people over time and wears on people."

3. Brian Windhorst [05:15]:

   "If you are firing Tibbs after the most successful four-year run in the franchise's history in a quarter century or more, then you bet it better work."

4. Brian Windhorst [07:12]:

   "You have to. To have that hairdo."

5. Marc Stein [19:00]:

   "Tom Thibodeau, I'm here to tell you, is a great guy. He has a wonderful sense of humor."

6. Tim Bontemps [41:18]:

   "He learned that he was giving his opponent in advance. I actually think that somebody should slip this, like, send this blind to Luca's phone."

7. Marc Stein [38:07]:

   "Shay Gilders Alexander has kind of played his Canadian cousin in the last round. Sir. Canada was fully engaged in that."

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Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the New York Knicks' surprising decision to terminate Tom Thibodeau's tenure, exploring the multifaceted reasons behind the move and its implications for the franchise's future. Additionally, the hosts deliver an engaging preview of the NBA Finals' Game 1, offering insights into team strategies, key players, and the competitive landscape. With expert commentary and candid discussions, listeners gain a deep understanding of critical developments shaping the NBA landscape.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Foreign.

[Tim Bontemps]

Welcome to Hoop Collective Podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we are doing on Wednesday afternoon. Joining me from Oklahoma City where he is there for the finals. I hope to be joining him later. Hopefully flights are on time. Never know this time of year. Tim Bontemps well, I hope it's a.

[Marc Stein]

Better Travel Day than McMahon and I had yesterday, Brian, because it was a bit of an ordeal getting to Oklahoma City. But you know what? There were tornadoes here and we landed and we got to the hotel and it was all okay, which is all that matters. So.

[Tim Bontemps]

But last time a series started and I was trying to get to Oklahoma City, ended up in a car with our other man here from somewhere else in the Paycom center. His band, McMahon.

[Brian Windhorst]

Howdy partner. I am not picking you up this time. You're on your own. If you can't make it via the airlines, then figure it out yourself. Find another chauffeur.

[Tim Bontemps]

Nothing is more exciting than travel talk to open up the podcast. It is NBA media day, but nothing will reinforce the belief that there's not a lot of interest in Midwest Finals other than I've got Coastal Giant transaction story which happened with Tom Thibodeau getting fired on Tuesday. I have decided to suspend surprise now when it comes to coaching transactions. Taylor Jenkins, Michael Malone, Tom Thibodeau, Bontemps, you covered that series. The only thing that I will say is that typically when a coach makes a good adjustment within a series, whether the coach wins the series or not, it frequently is used as a way to buttress him. It's sort of a feather in his cap. It's like, look, he's willing to make adjustments. You know, it's one of the things that we spend a lot of time with looking at game to game. But to sort of explain the Tom Thibodeau situation when he made significant adjustments to his coaching style after falling down 20 to the Pacers in the last round, even though those Moves were successful, it was used against him. And, you know, a couple of people know when this decision was made, a couple of people know how the influence was. I suspect it was lots of shades of gray. But I do think the fact that Tibbs made some good moves and was potentially used against him kind of explains the way this decision probably got formulated.

[Marc Stein]

Yeah, I mean, look, I talked about it on the podcast, but a month ago during the Detroit series, brought up the idea that the vibes around the team were not great. And I thought there was a world where Tom Thibodeau could be in trouble. And you guys both were like, how could that be the case? And I think when you look at Tom's resume on the court, I think it is fair to say, like, how could that be the case? They've won a playoff series three years in a row, something they hadn't done this century. This team had won one playoff series this century before. The last three years, they've won four. They hadn't made the conference finals in 25 years. They did this year. They beat Boston in the second round. Yes, Jason Tatum got hurt, but as you have said correctly, they were on their way to being up 3:1 before that happened. They. Tom did some really good adjustments in that series, switched up his defense from the. What he normally does. They made some adjustments in the Indiana series. The Pacers were a tough matchup for them and, you know, obviously stole game one and the rest is history from there. But I think at the end of the day, you know, I don't think this is some secret, like, hard to figure out thing. Tom is. Tom Thibodeau is a great coach who, over the course of his tenure in the league has rubbed people over time and wears on people. And I think in this case, he wore on people in New York, and they decided that they needed a different voice to try to get the team to the next level. And the irony is, I think there's a very real possibility whoever they hire will not have as much success as Thomas had just because of the bar that he has set. And frankly, you know, when the first line of the release that Leon Rose puts out is, our goal is to bring a championship to our fans, and you fire a coach who got you the conference finals for the first time in 25 years, the only level of success is finals or winning the title. And anything short of that, even getting back to the conference finals, is going to be a disappointment. So it's a very high bar to clear with a very tricky roster to navigate Albeit with a lot of talent. And it's going to be very interesting to see how it goes. But I think you can both say Tom did a great job with the Knicks and that they decided they needed to go in a different direction from a holistic standpoint. And I can understand how the decision was made, even if I'm not sure it's going to work out for him in the long run.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and you nailed it. Like, if you are firing Tibbs after the most successful four year run in the franchise's history in a quarter century or more, then you bet it better work. You better find somebody who can take it to the next level. It better be like the Pistons when they fired Rick Carlisle after a conference finals run and they brought in Larry Brown, you know, and then obviously, well.

[Tim Bontemps]

You can look closer than that. The Cavs fired J.B. bickerstaff and hired Kenny Atkinson.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's that one second round. There's Mark Jackson and Steve Kerr, you know.

[Marc Stein]

Yeah, Dwayne Casey. Dwayne Casey and Nick Nurse. You know, there's, there's examples of, of this that have worked. There's also examples of Mike Budenholzer to Adrian Griffin didn't go great. Tom Thibodeau to Fred Hoiberg didn't go great. Like there are, you know, there's, there's examples of it on both sides. But, you know, this, this is a pretty bold move by the Knicks because, look, the easy thing to do publicly, right, would have been to bring Tibbs back, add some depth to the team and see how next year goes. Because the funniest thing is all these people and, you know, all these fans in New York, you know, griping about, you know, the way Tibbs coach the team or like the, you know, things he held them back with minutes, whatever. The, the irony is, I think if you gave people truth serum, the reason the Knicks are looking for a new coach is not because of X's and O stuff on the court. And I suspect that whoever they hire to be the coach, because there are a few coaches better than Tom Thibodeau at the X's and O stuff, probably won't be as good as the X's and O stuff as tips. But it will be a question of can they cause this group to play in a different manner and have these disparate parts all fit together better, which they did not over the past six months and get this team to another level. But it's going to be hard for him to do that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and the other thing here Is like, why did Tibbs get fired? Because he's not good at the relationships part. And, you know, there's always going to be players that are grumbling about their roles, especially when, you know, let's be honest, Jalen Brunson's a phenomenal leader, the captain, all that, but he's as ball dominant as any player in the league. And, oh, that's Tibbs guy, you know, and now Tips has known him since he was a baby, and, you know, so you kind of have to manage that dynamic, which is difficult. But the other thing is the Knicks have been a dysfunctional franchise forever, and the first opponent that a Knicks head coach has to defeat is the Knicks. That's just the simple fact of the matter that I. I didn't. Well, I didn't make that line up.

[Marc Stein]

I'm borrowing it. I'm sure you are.

[Brian Windhorst]

From people who know and. But it is. And there are clicks in the Knicks management in the front. And let's just listen. Tibbs and World Wide Wes are both Leon Rose guys, and. But they are not each other guys. And that's been a thing for a while now. It's, you know, that that's just the way it is. There have been people in that front office who have been wanting to run Tibs out of there for a couple years now, at least, and they. And they finally did. And, you know, Wendy, when you bring up, like, hey, the adjustments he made, you know, specifically going deeper into the bench were used against him. Yeah. Because then there's people, and not just a couple, like a lot of people who are saying, yeah, well, you. You didn't play the bench all year long. You've been wearing out the starters all year long. So Tibbs is not totally without fault, but damn, man, the guy just got done off a conference finals. And when the face of the franchise was asked about whether he believed in Tibbs, Jalen Brunson was incredulous that the question was even asked.

[Marc Stein]

So, final question of his press conference the other day, Steve Popper from Newsday asked him, do you think Tom is the right coach? And I don't remember exactly what Jalen said, but he essentially said, seriously. Seriously, are you asking that question right now? Come on. Yes. And then he got up and walked out and.

[Brian Windhorst]

And listen, the rela. So you've got to bring in a relationships guy. And listen, one of the names that's been thrown out there is a man who's under contract with another team, but definitely a guy who has relationships not just with Jaylen Brunson, but with a lot of people in that organization, and that's Jason Kidd. And what I will say about that is I just, I I I would not dismiss that possibility. More HOOPP Collective Podcast after this.

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[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, I think that one of the things that has emerged in the 24 hours since the transaction, for those of us in the information side of this business, is that the Knicks are not necessarily looking at the free agent candidates, that they are believing that they can appeal to a coach who may be under contract with another team. And all I will say about that is, is that if you're a Western Conference head coach and you're not head over heels in love with your situation for whatever reason, and the Knicks job is open, you may not slam the phone down if it rings.

[Marc Stein]

You may say, here's, here's the other thing about the Knicks job. The next job will pay you a lot of money because James better because.

[Tim Bontemps]

They just fired a guy who had 50 wins under contract for three years and went to the conference finals, so you better make sure that you're protected well.

[Marc Stein]

But that's. That's not my point. That's the opposite point. The point is a year ago, Tom Thibodeau signed a contract extension that I believe has him under contract for the Next three years at a hefty number. Yeah, I think just a year.

[Tim Bontemps]

This is that way.

[Marc Stein]

So that. So that number. That number is being paid. And look for the. There's plenty of very fair criticisms of Jim Dolan in his time running the Knicks. The one thing you can never criticize him for is an unwillingness to spend either on the roster or on ancillary stuff. They have always spent money on personnel, be it players or coaches, so. Or front office people. So money will not be an object if they decide they want to get somebody. And look, the Knicks have a very good team. The east is wide open like we've talked about. The Pacers are an awfully good team, the Knicks, you know. Yeah, you could. I mean, again, some of the stuff with Tom, with the depth stuff, I think is silly. They had seven guys that you really could rely on in playoff games all year. If you can get that to nine this off season with some additional moves this summer. Use attacks, Mle. Get some guys on minimums who can help. There's no reason this team can't be right back in the position they were this year with a chance to be in the NBA Finals next year. So, yeah, if you're a coach and like, with the talent the Knicks have in the age range, they have it in it. It is a really good job. It's a super attractive job and there'll be a lot of people interested in trying to get it, I'm sure.

[Brian Windhorst]

Imeidoka is another one who's been mentioned that one. I cannot envision happening. 1. I just can't envision the Rockets playing ball with it. But also gotta tell you, Houston's a pretty attractive situation right now as well.

[Marc Stein]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I will also say the first off, Udoka is up for a contract extension. Probably. Remember when. If I can take you back to that time and place, you know, it was. Seemed like he had gotten the Brooklyn Nets job. And I don't know if any, if anyone's ever told that full story about how that was either done or coming apart or whatever, and he didn't get it. And so there was like this belief that maybe it would be difficult to hire him. And it was before Monty Williams got that crazy contract that basically reset the entire coaching market, at least the desired coaching market. And so the Rockets hired Imei very early in that cycle two years ago and got him. You know, he's being paid very well, don't get me wrong. But. But he kind of got like a contract where it was within like a month. It was already kind of like a bargain contract. I remember because I talked to the people at the Rockets about it who were like, we didn't, we're really happy with the contract we got. We didn't foresee the contract. Wasn't like, we signed him and go, we got him on a discount. They were like, we signed him and like, boy, it's really good that we hired this guy in April instead of June or, you know, you know, late maybe. But ime, after two years has certainly shown he's done a great job. Serious candidate for coach of the year this year. And so, you know, like, it's not the end of the world.

[Marc Stein]

He's going to get, he's going to get taken care of. I feel pretty confident about that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I think he's got a long road ahead as the Rockets head coach, you know, and then we'll see about, about other situations.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, well, the thing about it is if, if you try to hire another team's coaching, it's under contract and the team wants to keep them. Doesn't. Doesn't always work. No, you can't always get what you want. You know, people, I will say this and people will say, well, you know, Doc Rivers got traded to the Clippers. Yeah, that was in like 2011 or 12. I mean, it's been a, it's been more than a decade since that happened. And okay, it happens again. We'll acknowledge it. Yes, it's happened before, but it's, you know, it's, it's not normal. It doesn't happen. But.

[Marc Stein]

Well, the Knicks do have a basically fake first round pick from the Washington Wizards that I think if they end up having to, quote, unquote, trade for a coach, that would be potentially a fairly easy thing to move in a deal. I mean, it's a top eight protected pick this year. I would bet a lot of money that the Washington Wizards will be in the top eight in the draft. And so, you know, that that also could be a thing. And look, I also think it's worth mentioning, like, I, I have a lot of sympathy for Tibbs, too, because this is a guy who has grinded obviously throughout his career. This was his dream job to be the coach of the Knicks. He grew up in Connecticut, his family was Knicks fans, and the guy did a really good job. And as you said, McMahon, like, it really can't be overstated the growth that the Knicks franchise has had over the past several years, from being an absolute mess to being a really good, strong, functioning organization that has made A lot of savvy moves that has done, you know, some really good work in terms of accruing talent and building a foundation and taking solid, repeated steps forward. Like, these are not things that the Knicks had done for a very long, very, very long time. And Tom Thibodeau is at the center of a lot of that stuff.

[Tim Bontemps]

I also think that they did a really good job of aligning the players that they acquired to the way the coach wanted to coach.

[Marc Stein]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

For years, until they made the Karl Anthony town straight.

[Brian Windhorst]

And listen. Yeah, go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Because, like, if Tibbs wanted hard workers, high effort, low drama, grinders, defense first. Okay. Brunson's that defense first. But certainly played the same type of style that Tibbs always wanted from his point guards.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Which was Jalen.

[Marc Stein]

Brunson is built off the top. Thibodeau.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. Platform. Yes.

[Marc Stein]

Right. Like, he's.

[Brian Windhorst]

Tibbs has been developing Brunson since he was a newborn.

[Marc Stein]

I mean, he's. I mean, Jalen is that they're. They're the same personality. They're showing up to work every day, chip on their shoulder.

[Tim Bontemps]

Like, he's not given anything to the media. Both really good guys, by the way.

[Marc Stein]

And like, by the way, that is one thing. I do want to say this one thing that Tom. Tom sort of gets poked fun at for the way he presents, like, in the media. Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

I.

[Marc Stein]

He gets, to me, did never get. He never got enough credit for the fact that he never was going to cause a story. There was never going to be a drama story from Tom Thibodeau creating kind.

[Tim Bontemps]

Of the prototypical Jim Dolan coach. Right. And because Leon Rose never speaks to the media. Never speaks to the media off the record either, by the way.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which, by the way, it's time for a press conference. If you're going to make this move, get out front and explain.

[Marc Stein]

There ain't going to be one.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's embarrassing.

[Marc Stein]

It is embarrassing. And there's also not going to be one.

[Tim Bontemps]

Tibbs would always have to be the voice of the organization on every matter, and he never had a misstep. And by the way, Tom Thibodeau, not that it matters, and not that, like, it has anything to do with him getting fired. Tom Thibodeau, I'm here to tell you, is a great guy. He has a wonderful sense of humor.

[Marc Stein]

It is. It is the irony.

[Brian Windhorst]

You have to. To have that hairdo.

[Marc Stein]

Well, it. It's the irony of the experience. He would laugh at that. And it is the irony of the Tibbs experience. That if you. And I don't know him well at all. His dad went to Bonaventure. He's has got some Bonaventure connections. Like I know him a little bit because of that and just being around him for years. But like if you spend any time around him away from the cameras, like, he is a really funny guy. He's a good guy. And like that's the shame of it to me is that over the course of his career as these relationships in these various places have broken down over time, that part of him is always never really come to the fore enough.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Marc Stein]

And it's been to his detriment. And that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that to me is somebody who.

[Marc Stein]

Likes him personally is disappointing. No, I agree. I'm saying it's. It's totally his choice, but it's just disappointing that that is the way these things have gone when it didn't have to be that way.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and he's either not capable or not willing to engage in the BS that is part of being a head coach in the NBA and by bsl. A lot of that is managing the internal dynamics that are in a franchise and especially a franchise like the Knicks. That's what got him in Chicago too, by the way. Wendy, though, Bon Tim so rudely interrupted, as he's prone to do when you were discussing the cat angle here and I wanted to let you finish your thoughts on that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would just say I thought one of the things that the Knicks did a great job of with this build was, was just how well that there seemed to be alignment from the front office to the coach to the team.

[Marc Stein]

And while most important thing you can have.

[Tim Bontemps]

And while they're, you know, they didn't win, you know, they weren't in the finals. They weren't, you know, like they were making progress. And you know, even after the Bridges trade, which I think was obviously controversial and definitely risky, I still liked where they were. And. And then the cat trade happens and that. That's a Leon Rose trade clearly because Leon Rose was, you know, Leon Rose recruited. Not quite like the Brunson angle with them, but Leon Rose was. Had a relationship with Carl Town.

[Marc Stein]

He's from. He's from. Leon is from Central Jersey, Central South Jersey to Carl Towns is like that's a longstanding deal.

[Brian Windhorst]

And so did Gerson Roses who. Who was, you know, I've not sure his exact title with the Knicks, but one of the head honors in the Knicks front office and was running the Wolves for a lot of cats tender there.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, well, tibs and you know, I don't think Tibs and Cat had a bad relationship in Minnesota, but I don't think it was like, boy, that's like Jimmy Butler and Tibbs or you know, or Derrick Rose and tips or Taj Gibson.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. During the playoff series I covered it. It felt oil and water type of relationship when they made that trade player.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, Cat is an offensive first new age big man and he's an all NBA player who's on a supermax. Like he's extremely successful, but that is not typically your Tom Thibodeau player. And by the way, their marriage ultimately didn't work. Whether it was their, their relationship or whatever, it didn't work.

[Marc Stein]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

So that trade, really. And even though I do think that there, that there was merit to that trade, but that trade is where the first time I was like, wow, I am surprised that Tibbs would be on board with that.

[Marc Stein]

Well, and maybe look at, well, and if you look at the way the season has played out. Right. Like again, the Knicks, if you have Jalen Brunson and Carl Towns as your point guard and center, it's going to be hard to construct a good defense like finding another coach who's going to do a better job than Tom Thibodeau of doing that. Like, I'm not sure that's going to be the case. Right. Like it. This is a pretty, this is a pretty high stakes move to make if you're the Knicks to make this decision. And in some levels I, on some levels I do respect it because it's not the easy thing to do. But McMahon hit the nail on the head earlier when he said, if you're going to make this decision and you're going to fire a guy after this run that he's had, you better get it right and you better get somebody that takes this group to the next level. Because if you don't, especially given how up in arms everybody is in New York already, that they didn't win this series and expectations are already through the roof for where this team is going, it's not like that's going to get better or easier if the Knicks are out in the second round next year and it looks more the same for the next 12 months.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and you know what you can say, awkward marriage or whatever, Cat had arguably his best season this year.

[Marc Stein]

It deserving an all NBA player this year.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. The second run of that partnership, you can't tell me it was a failure. What are you talking about? Cat averaged 24 and 13 this year. Was an all NBA player. And the Knicks went to the conference finals. They got beat in the conference finals. Their defensive issues reared their ugly head. Okay. They had a hell of a season.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. And one of the reasons they lost was because they had difficulty managing the Cat Brunson defensive challenge. It's not the only reason they lost. But by the way, like, I don't know how I understand that they blew game one of that series. And clearly we talked all the way through, like if that had gone differently, things would have potentially gone differently. I do believe the proper team won. The better team won. I mean, could the Knicks.

[Marc Stein]

I mean, the Pacers. Yes, the Pacers control, especially after game one, the Pacers controlled the significant majority of the series after that. They were clearly the better team and deserved to win. So no question about it.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right. Well, I would just say that this, this, this appeal, this applies in every sport. But when you fire a successful head coach, it is high pressure for you to get it right. And therefore you should know before you fire that head coach what you're going to do. It doesn't always happen. In the case of the Cavs we just talked about, they went through a weeks and weeks long process to decide on Kenny Atkinson over James Borrego. And it was close. Okay. And they ended up hiring Atkinson. He wins coach of the year. And now people say, oh, it was a good decision.

[Marc Stein]

So no offense to Cavs corner. No offense to Cavs corner. That was a lot lower stakes and a lot lower pressure.

[Tim Bontemps]

I understand, I understand. But I'm saying, like, that was a situation. What I would have said, you fired a coach you just had back to back 51 seasons and took you into the second rounds without LeBron for the first time since the 90s that would have been in the same zone as this. So I'm not saying that like you have to, you know, you do it and then, you know, five minutes later you have your coach. But I would assume that Leon Rose has a strategy. We will find out, I think in short order whether that strategy is. Is in play or not. And you mentioned the gentleman from Dallas who may be on their radar. McMahon obviously a former Nick, left Dallas for the Knicks.

[Marc Stein]

Left Dallas for the Knicks under. Under circumstances with. Well, I guess was that Cuban was.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, Cuban was mad for a good while about that. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[Marc Stein]

I think you're on mute.

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Marc Stein]

Let's lay this out because it's worth laying out. Just because it's funny. So Jason Kidd gets drafted in Dallas 30 years ago that ends in Flames. He goes to Phoenix. That situation ends in Flames. He goes to the Nets, makes the Finals twice. Arguably could have been an MVP there. Has a great run there. 2008 that ends in Flames, goes back to Dallas.

[Brian Windhorst]

Migraine, not Flames.

[Marc Stein]

Wins the. Right. Exactly. Wins the title. Great, great run there. Leaves after that to go to the Knicks.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, he left.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, they didn't want to resign him, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Marc Stein]

So.

[Brian Windhorst]

So if you remember, Cuban made the decision to strip down the championship team, prioritize cap space. Coming out of the lockout that followed their finals. J Kid endured a miserable season the next year and then that's when they had the cap space. That's when they were chasing the, you know, they wanted to get CP3 and Dwight and whatever and J Kid committed verbally to resign with the Mavericks, went and played golf and changed his mind, decided he was going to the Knicks and. And Cuban was. Cuban was pretty mad for.

[Tim Bontemps]

And Tyson Chandler had already gone to the Knicks. Is that right?

[Brian Windhorst]

I believe Tyson had already gone.

[Marc Stein]

Tyson, yeah. Tyson. Yeah, Tyson was there. So.

[Tim Bontemps]

But that was Tyson Was there because.

[Brian Windhorst]

Tyson was gone after the title season.

[Marc Stein]

This was following the next season. Yes. So then Jason goes to the Knicks, has a very successful year there. That was the one year the Knicks won a playoff series before.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was a dramatic impact even though he didn't put up great stats. If you watch them for five minutes, you can tell the positive influence he makes.

[Marc Stein]

He had a big impact on the team. Then he makes everybody with the Knicks furious because he leaves to go be the head coach of the Nets out of nowhere.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, he definitely had a year left in his career. At least a year, maybe more, I felt. I don't know.

[Marc Stein]

So he goes to be the head coach of the Nets for a year, then he takes over the next team.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is post, Garnett, Pierce trade. He's going to be the guy who brings them.

[Marc Stein]

Well, before they did. They hired him before they did the trade. But they hired him. Then they do the trade. Okay, then, then, then as I'm intimately aware with. He's there for a year and then.

[Tim Bontemps]

He has the ice incident where he's, he has. Who runs into him out?

[Marc Stein]

Tyrod Taylor. Yeah. Tyrone, not Tyrod Taylor.

[Tim Bontemps]

Tyson Taylor.

[Marc Stein]

Tyshawn Taylor, the Ravens backup quarterback? Yeah, not Tyshawn Taylor. He has Tyson Taylor running to him the night before Thanksgiving. With that he has a crazy first month. He has Lawrence Frank filing CPS reports like that that Cease is crazy. He was going to get fired. I'll tell this story because it's funny because I'm in Oklahoma City. So the Nets had a miserable first two months of that season. And I'm in Oklahoma City. They're playing the Thunder. They're down like 15 at halftime. And I'm getting all kinds of messages from Nets front office people, including maybe somebody that works with us about why don't you ask Jason about this? Or ask Jason about this or ask Jason about this. And Mark Stein, our former colleague, had come up from Dallas to write. I believe he drove.

[Tim Bontemps]

He didn't fly.

[Marc Stein]

He might have drove.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, no. Stein is. No, no, no. Stein is one who advised me to start flying. Go on.

[Marc Stein]

So came up here, came up here to I believe, to Oklahoma City, to I believe, prepare the obit for when Jason was going to get bounced as coach. And then the Nets had a crazy comeback in the second half. Darren Williams hit a half court shot at the end of the third quarter. By then Brook Lopez and broke his foot. It was after the year two first two months that season, season from hell. Joe Johnson hits a game winner over Serge Ibaka that almost hit the ceiling of the building.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was always hitting winners.

[Marc Stein]

And the Nets then went like 36 and 16 or something like that to close the season. Jason saves his job. They get to the second round, they lose to the Heat, and then he wants to be president of the Bucs, tries to pull the couple in New York, gets told no. Leaves to go to Milwaukee. So that situation ends in flames.

[Brian Windhorst]

Wait, he wants to be president of the Nets?

[Marc Stein]

Well, yes. I mean, he came. Came to the Nets. Well, no, he. He wanted to be president of both teams, but.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's.

[Marc Stein]

It's a long story. The short version is he vows to.

[Tim Bontemps]

Develop Michael Carter Williams into a star.

[Marc Stein]

The Bucks tenure goes off the rails after a couple of years like it has everywhere else. And now after a brief stint with the Lakers, he's now in Dallas, where he's had a very good run.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. And a very successful stint with the Lakers. He was a key part of that championship.

[Marc Stein]

Yeah. It was their elite assistant with Frank Vogel, and they won the title. Then he gets a Dallas job, and now we're a few years in and we're getting close to again, sort of like top divot. Oh. Every few years with Jason Kidd, there's something. So.

[Brian Windhorst]

And I'm. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I know or even think that J. Kid wants out of Dallas. That would be going way too far. I. What I can comfortably say is there certainly have been decisions, major franchise decisions that have been made that he was not on board with, one of which includes the firing of Casey Smith, who J. Kid has been extremely tight with since his second tenure as a player in Dallas, who is now running the health and performance group for the New York.

[Tim Bontemps]

Knicks, which Tom Thibodeau praised up and down on a regular basis.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which would. They won the National Basketball Association. What. What is it? Any. Whatever the trainers associate.

[Marc Stein]

Best trainer. Best trainer of the year.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would just say that. I. Look, I don't know. I don't want to get too far into this Jason Kidd thing because I don't have information I'm a little bit in the dark on.

[Marc Stein]

I was only going through that because Jason's. I was only going through that because Jason's tenure has got a lot of interesting.

[Tim Bontemps]

I understand. But like, you know, they are about to draft potentially a generational player.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, yeah, there's. And listen, he loves Kyrie. He loves ad. I think there is confidence that the Mavericks can be a very good team again next season. You know, they listen They've got to figure out a starting lead guard situation for the first at least half of the season. Then a guy can still play a key role. They've got ideas there. That's why I say, like, I don't. I think it would be way too far to hint, suggest or any of that that J kid is looking to get out of Dallas. I think that that would be not an accurate or fair thing to say.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, well.

[Brian Windhorst]

But if this opportunity were to present itself, I bet you his ears would perk up.

[Marc Stein]

As we said before, this is a job that a lot of people are going to have interest in for a lot of reasons. There's a lot of talent, there's a lot of money in it. It's New York City, the world's greatest city and you're in the east and.

[Tim Bontemps]

It'S going to be damn hard and high standards.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. But people there aren't very nice.

[Tim Bontemps]

Before we go, should we talk about Kim V. Well, by the way, like, you know, I didn't get up in first take today. We did one segment on the finals. There was media day today. I wasn't there.

[Marc Stein]

That's how big a series it is, folks. Brian bothered to show up.

[Brian Windhorst]

Listen, I'll say this media day is a circus. Like it's not like we learned a whole bunch of new stuff today. I am excited for this series. I am excited. The strength on strength of this Oklahoma City defense against the the Pacers offense. Certainly Canada where I've got many, many friends and a lot of fans. You know the great country of Canada has got to be excited about this. They've got three key players and you know in Benedict Matheran a rising young.

[Tim Bontemps]

Player for Canadians know that that Shay Gilders Alexander has kind of played his Canadian cousin in the last round. Sir. Canada was fully engaged in that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Him and Nimhard been playing against each other since there were nine. You got that too by the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

Can speak like five languages.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's impressive. Lou. Lou Dort was answering questions in French today.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mr. Matheran can certainly speak in French.

[Brian Windhorst]

I believe that. I bet you they can both speak Haitian as well.

[Tim Bontemps]

They can.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't know about Lou but I know that Ben.

[Brian Windhorst]

Ben can I bet you Lou can.

[Marc Stein]

More more details from the also Bennett.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mathering came January spent some time in at the NBA Academy in in Mexico and I believe speaks passable Spanish.

[Brian Windhorst]

Ah movie being. Movie being. But we've known what the series like.

[Tim Bontemps]

Crazy like to watch Chris Apps Porzingis answer questions in Spanish. Yeah like it's just, it just, it's like one time I was in Switzerland and I was. I took my son miniature golfing and I watched like the 17 year old girl who worked the till do transactions in Italian, German and English back to back to back. And I felt like such a fool.

[Brian Windhorst]

Dude, in Europe they all speak multiple languages.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know. Well, I know Luke, Lucas, Luca can.

[Brian Windhorst]

Bounce between Slovenian, Serbian, Spanish, English and. And I'm sitting here like I, I know like 27 words of Spanish and I think I'm pretty damn impressive.

[Marc Stein]

Great regrets.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I was gonna say I can list some for you. That should be much higher anyways. But like, we've talked about this series how many times so far? I'm looking forward to game one. I'm looking forward to seeing how they match up. I don't know, like, what else do you want us to talk about with this series at this point?

[Tim Bontemps]

We ask you.

[Brian Windhorst]

This happen for days now.

[Tim Bontemps]

We're not allowed to bet. Nor would I. Tomorrow's spread is almost 10 points. I think as of right now, nine and a half.

[Brian Windhorst]

And OKC is minus 700 to win the series.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's okay. So here's the thing that's appropriate on one hand. You guys know how I feel about the Pacers, right? I. I love them, but I agree.

[Marc Stein]

Well, of course you.

[Tim Bontemps]

I agree. It's appropriate. And I also think, you know, the thing about the Pacers also is that they're, they're really, really good in game ones.

[Marc Stein]

Oh.

[Tim Bontemps]

Going back to this team with game ones like, they, they. That's where they jump on you. But I've routinely watched this year teams play the Thunder and despite being prepared for them, they just can't. It's just a shock to the system what they do to you defensively and both the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Stylistically, both of these teams can be a shock to the system. Opposite, Opposite ends of the floor. And that's what's so fascinating about this. I will say this. Nine and a half points is, is a spread. It's not a comfortable margin if there's like 59 seconds left in the game against the Pacers.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that's true. You know, watching.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, we've seen that. Yeah. Don't tune out. This is the, this is the best comeback team.

[Marc Stein]

And the end.

[Brian Windhorst]

It may be an NBA history. I mean, they've, they've pulled off comebacks we've never seen before.

[Marc Stein]

Yeah. The individual lines in these games will be hard for me to gauge because both these teams are pretty high variants, especially the Thunder. Like if the Thunder are hitting threes. They're going to win a lot of games in this series by 15 or 20 probably because when they hit threes they blow people out. But they also can have games where they go 5 for 25 or whatever, 6 for 30. And the Pacers have shown in these playoffs they can really get going from deep and have repeatedly been the best three point shoot team in the playoffs. So that, that's the part that I think on a game to game base is a little hard to gauge and it is what could make it a compelling series. And you know, it is just going to be super fun to see these two teams that do a lot of the same things in different ways really go at it. I thought Shay, I heard Shay Che had a good line today when he said that the, the Pacers go about the way they play in that they're stubborn and how they stick to what they want to do all the time. And I think the same thing applies to both teams. Like both teams consistently do the same thing over and over again and stick to who they are and it's what's gotten them here.

[Tim Bontemps]

I actually had two of my favorite quotes of the year that come out of the pregame of the. Not the lead up of this. I wrote a story about this. I don't know if it's going to even want to run because the Thibodeau stuff is. And one of them has gotten a lot of attention, which is what Miles Turner said after they won against the Knicks. He said we use the power of friendship or something like that. We. And both themes, both. He said both teams play with the power of friendship and there is something to that. What's happening in the league right now, if you like watch how the Cavs played and you watch how the Knicks play. I mean the Knicks are famously friends. You know, there is something to that right now, which is stark variance to the Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant. I mean the key moment of the last dance is Jordan saying, I ain't going to be your friend. And that's, you know, if you had a problem with that, that's you because you've never won, right? That's like the credo of the Michael Jordan era. Like I'm going to be on your ass and if you follow me, you're going to win. I don't have to be your friend. And certainly that's the way Kobe played. And a lot of these guys grew, grew up either idolizing one or idolizing the other. And so this is a different style. So, so that quote I loved. And the other one was a quote. I'm not sure who asked him the question. I think it might have been Joelle Lorenzi from the Oklahoman. But if it wasn't him, was somebody else. I'm sorry.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, no, he. He's got a nickname. It's. It's no Show Joe, because he keeps committing to play picket ball. He ain't showed up yet. Go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, my God. That is a way to get on your. Your list.

[Brian Windhorst]

You and Wall McMinamon. Who? Who? Anyways, go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Anyway, he was talking to him about. In the press conference about. About learning, you know, how he plays with, like, sort of even keel, like, not that much emotion.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

And he talked about how when he was in high school, that his coaches taught him that because he used to be a hothead. He used to throw the ball around and all this stuff. And he said he. He learned that he was giving his opponent in advance. I actually think that somebody should slip this, like, send this blind to Luca's phone. Okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

He said that you can Luca be more like Shay. That'll go over well.

[Tim Bontemps]

You can weapon. He. The key word was he. You can weaponize playing with no emotion.

[Marc Stein]

And never let him get to you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, you don't let him get to you, you know, because if you are emotional, you sort of give your opponent a weapon against you. And look, I do think we want. We don't want our players all to play like robots. We like them playing with emotion.

[Brian Windhorst]

But Shay talking about impressed, he doesn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's tr.

[Marc Stein]

And he doesn't play like a robot. I mean, he doesn't play like a robot, but what he is, is silky smooth and under control all the time in every situation. And he literally doesn't sweat.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's. It's crazy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, and interesting. The, like, the competitive personalities of the faces of the franchise in this series are very. In the games, but the competitive personalities are very, very different. And where Shay is just like, you know, strictly business, you know, pure focus, even keel. Like, Shay will never do anything that could be remotely considered talking trash. I remember I asked him about how they, you know, what. What they were doing that was so effective against Joker midway through that series. And in the hallway, like, he. He kind of gave me a non answer. He said, I'm not sure, but, you know, whatever it is, we got to keep doing it kind of smiled. And in the hallway, he goes, hey, man, I'm not going to say anything that could give him any ammo. Whereas Halliburton Will hit a game tire, he thinks a game winner, and strut up and down this the court in Madison Square Garden with the choke signal going on.

[Tim Bontemps]

And he might argue that he's weaponizing it. I'm not even saying that one way is the right way. I just love the way he.

[Marc Stein]

No, it's fun.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, it's a fun contrast.

[Marc Stein]

And it. And it should be said before we go. It should be said. What's on the table here for Shay, right, guys, the best player on a team that won 68 games. Only seven teams have ever done that. There are 10 guys in the history of the league who have won MVP and finals MVP in the same season. You guys, you guys got any idea of who that list is?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'm running out of time, so just go through it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Michael Jordan.

[Marc Stein]

Michael Jordan.

[Brian Windhorst]

Magic Johnson.

[Marc Stein]

Magic Johnson. Michael did it four times. Magic Johnson. Kareem did it.

[Brian Windhorst]

LeBron James.

[Marc Stein]

LeBron did it twice.

[Brian Windhorst]

Kobe did not.

[Marc Stein]

Kobe didn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Kobe only won one mvp.

[Marc Stein]

Larry Bird did it twice. Okay, the other guys, the other guys who've done it, Tim Duncan, Shaquille o' Neal, not Bob Pettit. The board wasn't ready yet or he would have done it. Tim Duncan, Shaquille o' Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone and Willis Reed, all inner circle hall of Fame guys. So, like, obviously the Thunders still got to win four more games, but if they're able to win this series, and I think we would agree that the overwhelming likelihood is if the Thunder win the series, he's going to be the best player and he's going to be the MVP. Like you're talking about a guy in his mid-20s who's already going to have some pretty impressive long term resume stuff.

[Tim Bontemps]

Accomplished, and he's about to sign a contract that's going to pay him over 70 million a year by the end of it. All right, I've got to run to see you guys later.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was about to make a Bontemps MVP voting joke. Go on.

[Marc Stein]

Hustle.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hustle off.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, I will hopefully see you all. Jackson is our is there as well. So thank you, Jackson. Thank you, BonTems. Thank you, McMahon. Thank you for watching listening to Hoop Collective. We will have a podcast with a special guest for. I don't want to jinx it. I would tell you, but I don't want to jinx it. And you know, like previous years we thought we've had people and that didn't work out. So we have a special guest after game one. Which we'll post the next day, and then we'll. Bon Thompson McMahon will be back before game two. All right. Thank you for watching with in the.

[Brian Windhorst]

New collective audio Samigos.