Knicks Historic Comeback Reaction + How Can OKC Recover vs. Spurs? & Kidd Out In Dallas

Summary

Podcast Summary: Knicks Historic Comeback Reaction + How Can OKC Recover vs. Spurs? & Kidd Out In Dallas

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective — May 20, 2026
Panel: Brian Windhorst (Host), Tim Bontemps, Tim MacMahon

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Overview

This episode delves deep into the NBA Conference Finals, covering the New York Knicks' historic comeback against the Cleveland Cavaliers, the Oklahoma City Thunder’s challenge adjusting to Victor Wembanyama and the Spurs, and Jason Kidd’s ouster as coach of the Dallas Mavericks. Panelists share analysis, behind-the-scenes context, and inside stories with plenty of wit and candor, dissecting strategy, key plays, and what’s next in these major NBA storylines.

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Knicks' Historic Comeback vs Cavaliers

The Game Breakdown

• The Knicks erased a 22-point deficit in the fourth quarter to defeat the Cavs in overtime, taking a 1–0 lead in the Eastern Conference Finals.
• The Cavs played some of their best basketball for over three quarters, led by a strong Donovan Mitchell performance and crisp ball movement.
• The Knicks looked lethargic and out of sync until a late shift—aided by Jalen Brunson’s heroics and critical Cavs’ mistakes—sparked their comeback.

Key Stats

• Knicks trailed by 22 points with about 9 minutes left in regulation.
• Jalen Brunson scored 15 points in the 4th quarter, 38 overall.
• Final 13 minutes run: 44–11 Knicks.

Analysis of Collapse (06:00–15:00)

• Cavs' collective cognitive freeze: Windhorst calls it “collective cognitive freeze for the last 45 minutes.” (05:02)

• Timeout mismanagement:

  • Kenny Atkinson failed to use his “user or lose it” timeouts, despite clear signals for a momentum change.
  • “Kenny Atkinson never calls a single timeout” until the closing minutes despite a surging Knicks rally. (05:28–07:38)
  • Bontemps: “It was literally incomprehensible...I couldn't believe he didn't call timeout at any point.” (05:28)

• Strategic failures:

  • In the comeback, Knicks went all-offense, subbing out Mitchell Robinson and going small to let Brunson attack James Harden repeatedly in pick-and-roll.
  • MacMahon: “Mike Brown just said in the post game press conference, it's no secret we were attacking Harden. And guess what? Our game plan is going to be in game two and three and four and we'll see if there's any more.” (23:27)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Brian Windhorst: “This was a collapse by the Cavaliers of epic proportions. How do you lose that game?” (12:17)
• MacMahon, on Harden's defense: “This was another more turnover than bucket performance. ... The Jazz—the Cavs—are 0–6 this postseason when he has more turnovers than buckets.” (12:42)
• Stat: Brunson was 7-of-8 in the fourth quarter and overtime with Harden as the primary defender. (23:58)
• Bontemps on Kenny's optimism: “Kenny Atkinson said they got unlucky and that he was proud of the way his team played. I guess he can be proud of the way they played for three quarters…” (08:34)

The Crowd & Atmosphere

• The MSG crowd flipped from “expecting a party” to lethargic as the Cavs dominated and rallied to an “avalanche” of energy as the Knicks made their comeback. (25:18–26:21)
• Bontemps: “All of a sudden, it was like an avalanche. And it just kept. The snowball just kept going down the hill. And the Cavs are like, oh, there goes the snowball.” (25:50)

Cavs’ Response & Outlook (16:56–23:26)

• The panel agrees this is the kind of loss that may linger mentally.
• MacMahon: “This might be an exception. That was just such a horrific collapse. Like, how do you wash that stench off you and play again in 48 hours?” (20:04)
• Kenny Atkinson’s lack of adjustments and damage control is highlighted as a pivotal reason for the collapse.

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Oklahoma City’s Dilemma: Wembanyama & the Spurs

Spurs Steal Game 1 — The Victor Wembanyama Show (27:00–44:42)

The Big Story:

• Victor Wembanyama's stat line: 41 points, 24 rebounds, 49 minutes played—dominated both ends.
• Epic shot: hit a 32-foot three pointer in the first overtime, creating a two-for-one scenario (27:00–28:00).
• Wemby’s unique defensive impact: declared “the most dominant defensive player we’ve ever seen.” (30:55–31:19)

Analysis & Adjustments

• Thunder had no answer for Wembanyama’s blend of mobility, length, and anticipation—drastically altering OKC's rim attacks.
• OKC’s star Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA) struggled, going 7-of-23, as Wembanyama “thought-altered” a multitude of Thunder shots (32:30–34:07).
• Windhorst: “Wemby is the most dominant defensive force we’ve ever seen... he’s breaking the game... the whole history of the sport, basically.” (37:09)

Defensive Gameplan Debate

• Thunder tried wings like Caruso and Dort as primary defenders on Wembanyama. The crew debates its merits:
  • Bontemps: “In 27 plays that Alex Caruso was the final defender on Victor Wembanyama, the Spurs were 6 for 17, 1 for 9 on threes, six turnovers. I'd say that strategy was pretty good.” (33:43)
  • Chet Holmgren struggled offensively and as a rim deterrent—panel agrees he needs to be much better going forward.

Building Thunder’s Response

• Thunder need to avoid playing “timid” and get Wemby moving laterally, with multiple actions and quick decisions, not timidly avoiding his presence (40:39–41:24).
• Spurs content to live with Alex Caruso open threes—something to watch if he keeps making them.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• MacMahon: “Wemby is reaching down and trying to rip that crown off of Shea's head. And he's one fourth of the way there.” (43:43)
• Bontemps: “Victor Wembanyama is the best player on the planet now. … That performance was the beginning, officially, to me, of the Victor era.” (44:24, 44:42)
• Windhorst (half-joking): “I had some LOLs tonight watching Cavs play. I don't know if that's the same.” (44:53)

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Dallas Mavericks: Jason Kidd Out

Kidd’s Dismissal

• Officially a “mutual parting of ways” but the panel is clear—this was a firing (49:09).
• The moment Masai Ujiri took over as Mavs President, Kidd’s tenure was in jeopardy.
• Hostility and lack of communication evident: Kidd wasn't told about Ujiri's hiring and wasn’t always present for draft interviews (50:03–50:43).

The Masai Ujiri Regime Begins

• Clean slate: Masai Ujiri is starting over, looking beyond the Luka Doncic trade era, and clearing out previous regimes' personnel (51:10–56:08).
• The Mavs intend to build around Cooper Flagg, the prized rookie, and have flexibility with the ninth pick in the upcoming draft.
• “They’re trying to move past the Luka trade.” (51:59)

Next Coach Speculation

• Front-runner concept: Sean Sweeney (Spurs lead assistant, former Mavs assistant) is widely regarded as the type Masai might target (52:39–54:43).
• Masai’s hiring track record: Prefers new, unheralded coaches like Nick Nurse and Darko Rajaković, not splashy big names.

Ownership Willing to Spend

• The Mavs’ willingness to eat over $40 million to move on from Kidd reflects the total commitment to Ujiri’s vision (57:32–58:00).
• Bontemps: “Full credit to [owner] Patrick Dumont for hiring Masai Ujiri and saying, hey, you're going to run the team and we're going to let you do it how you'd want to do it. And if that means we've got to spend a lot of money, then so be it.” (57:37)

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Selected Key Quotes with Timestamps

• On the Cavs' collapse:

  • Windhorst: “I have to say the Cavs had what I could only refer to as collective cognitive freeze. ... It was, I mean, a wretched, wretched result for the Cavs..." (04:54)

• On Kenny Atkinson’s timeouts:

  • Bontemps: “He didn’t call the user or lose it timeouts… never calls a single timeout…while Jalen Brunson starts making shots…like it was crazy to me.” (05:28–07:38)

• On Knicks game plan vs Harden:

  • MacMahon: “They just hunted them. Brunson was 7 of 11 when Harden was the primary defender on him and there was just like bring him into the switch, boom, attack them.” (12:42)

• On the mental toll of the loss:

  • MacMahon: “This might be an exception. That was just such a horrific collapse. Like, how do you wash that stench off you and play again in 48 hours?” (20:04)

• On Wembanyama’s uniqueness:

  • Bontemps: “Wemby is the most dominant defensive force we've ever seen. ... He's breaking the game. Like, he's just breaking things that ever. Like the whole history of the sport, basically.” (37:09)

• On the Mavericks transition:

  • C: “This is Messiah. Jiri is in charge. He is there. He is a huge personality. ... He is completely starting over with the Mavs.” (51:15)

• On Masai’s freedom as team president:

  • Bontemps: “[The owner] said, hey, you’re going to run the team and we’re going to let you do it how you’d want to do it. And if that means we’ve got to spend a lot of money, then so be it.” (57:37)

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Timestamps of Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------------------|-----------------| | Knicks historic comeback vs Cavs | 01:09–26:33 | | Wembanyama/Spurs vs Thunder, Game 1 | 26:33–44:59 | | Mavs part ways with Jason Kidd, coaching future| 48:21–56:08 | | Panel’s final thoughts, series outlooks | 56:08–58:43 |

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Tone and Style

The panel mixes earnest analysis ("cognitive freeze," tactical breakdowns), dry sarcasm (“The Cavs didn’t blow that lead—they mutually agreed to part ways with it.”), and reverent awe (especially at Wembanyama’s arrival as an unstoppable force). The back-and-forth is lively, at times playful, but always informed by deep league knowledge and insider context.

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Whether you missed the epsiode or want to relive the chaos, this is a masterclass in contemporary NBA analysis: instant history, x’s & o’s, and the seismic shifts shaping the league’s future all in one jam-packed hour.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday evening slash Wednesday morning. Joining me from across the street at Madison Square Garden where the New York Knicks came back from 22 points down the fourth quarter to win in overtime over the Cleveland Cavs take a 10 lead in the Eastern Conference final finals this evening, is Tim Bontemps.

[C]

Hello, everybody. When the Cavs are up by 22 in the fourth quarter, Danny Green, who I was watching the game with, turned to me and Dominique Collins over our producers and said, it's time for me to go home. This game is over. Shook our hands and he left.

[B]

Good analysis. Joining us from Oklahoma City, where he's covering the Western Conference finals, which are currently being led by the San Antonio spurs, in case you hadn't heard, is Ben McMahon.

[D]

Howdy, partners. There's stuff going on on the home front as well, but just hanging out in Bricktown.

[B]

The home front? You mean the Dallas Mavericks, I assume. And we'll be speaking about that a little later. Okay, so here in New York City, the streets are still alive because the Knick fans are still pouring out of the Garden following their overtime winning game one. And I will just say that the Cavs were playing for 3 ish and 3 plus quarters, one of their best games of the year that I think was characterized by great, great floor game from Donovan Mitchell for what looked like the second straight game. Terrific ball movement, drive and kick, drive and kick, moving bodies in the basketball, playing with confidence, playing with poise, the way they played in Detroit when they won game seven on Sunday. And the Knicks looked very much like a rusty team that was playing a little flat and playing against a team that was in better rhythm. And then with 20, then up by 22 with about nine minutes left to go in regulation, everything changed. And I will just say that I got the following text from my wife with this from my son. Now, my son Dane had two doubles and pitched three innings in a baseball victory. He's 8 years old, but it wasn't the most proud I was of him tonight. I was more proud of what he sent me here at the beginning of overtime.

[C]

Dad, the Knicks were down by like 28. And now it's an OT.

[D]

I guess what you said is true.

[C]

There's always time.

[B]

Bontemps would listen to me like my son. Seriously, he would learn so much about the NBA.

[C]

I just enjoyed the great dater. Just giving you, giving you some stick with the Cavs going down in flames.

[B]

Mildly condescending there.

[C]

Mildly.

[D]

That runs in the family.

[C]

Oh, man.

[B]

So I have to say that Jalen Brunson obviously was absolutely the definition of captain clutch. He had 15 points in the fourth quarter. He was able to really deliver some excellent execution. Some of the shots he made were hard, some of them were easy, but he got the Knicks over the hump. They collectively played pretty good defense down the stretch. I don't want to take anything away from the Knicks, who had a real high energy, quality performance. Obviously, the Garden loved every second of it. It completely energized them and puts them in a, you know, I think a really good position in this series when I expect them to play a cleaner game in, know, starting going forward. But Bontemps, I have to say the Cavs had what I could only refer to as collective cognitive freeze. For the last 45 minutes. They were out on the court, absolutely, completely stopped. And I have to assume that fatigue played a role with them playing their eighth game in 15 days or whatever. I cannot believe how the Cavs completely stopped making any sort of coherent decisions on the sideline in the game. Collectively. It was, I mean, a wretched, wretched result for the Cavs and their hopes of pulling some sort of upset in this series.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, it was actually. It was literally incomprehensible watching the game, all the awful decisions they were making as a group. And to me, this starts with Kenny Atkinson. I mean, the Cavs had two user lose it Timeouts, which means when you get to the three minute mark of the fourth quarter, everybody goes down to two timeouts. They had four timeouts left in the fourth quarter. As you just said. They're coming off playing a best of seven series that went the distance. And by the way, it was their second consecutive best of seven series that went the distance. They played every other day essentially for a month. And they're coming down the fourth quarter of the game. Jalen Brunson gets hot. The crowd is going. Kenny Akinson never calls a single timeout. Not only does he not call the user or lose the timeouts, he doesn't call a timeout all the way until the end of regulation at all at any point. Meanwhile, Jalen Brunson starts making shots. Yes. The Knicks start to get back in the game. Yes. He then sends as aggressive a double team as I've ever seen anybody do at Jalen Brunson every single possession, which Shayla Brunson then just very casually tossed the ball. Usually OG Anunoby at the top of the key who either had a wide open lane for a dunk or another pass for a wide open three. And they just kept giving up one wide open shot after another. And they didn't change anything. It was, it was unbelievable to watch them just completely melt down. And Donovan Mitchell had 29 points when he hit a three with 8:13 to go in the fourth quarter, it was 05. The rest of the game had one turnover was pretty much invisible. James Harden's defense was reprehensible. And even by James Harden's standards, I mean it was a collective meltdown. But I, I really just was flabbergasted by what Kenny Akatsu was doing. I, I couldn't believe he didn't call timeout at any point. Like it was crazy to me.

[D]

And his explanation was he likes to hold on to his timeouts.

[B]

Well, you literally lose two of them his post game.

[D]

Well, okay, invest him in your 401k.

[C]

You're literally just called time out with four minutes to go in the fourth quarter. Just let your team did a break. I couldn't believe it. It was crazy.

[B]

First off, let me just say that Sam Merrill, you know, and it was relevant this week the, the double bang that Mike Breen made famous with the Steph Curry shot 10 years ago in Oklahom. Tonight there actually was a half bang. When Sam Merrill took the shot near the end of regulation. I thought it was in game tied green. I'm pretty sure said bet he like actually got the first half syllable out. He was prepared to bang it. And then the ball rimmed out.

[C]

Rimmed out.

[D]

Honestly, that should accounted for at least two and a half points. It was.

[C]

I don't know how it didn't go in.

[D]

Rattled around the bottom of.

[B]

But for basketball karma, that ball shouldn't have gone in.

[D]

Well, Kenny Atkinson said they got unlucky.

[B]

Kenny Atkinson said they got unlucky and that he was proud of the way his team played. I guess he can be proud of the way they played for three quarters, but so basically, you know, taking a step back. Mike Brown, Knicks coach, desperate, down 20, you know, with less than 10 minutes to go, put out basically an all shooting lineup. Mitchell Robinson had been playing earlier in the game. The Cavs were purposely fouling him. I think they put him on the line four times. He went two of eight and you know, he had a good stretch in the first half, but he was being ineffective. And so he went to, you know, Josh Hart the Cavs were totally helping off of.

[D]

So he's minus 23 in this game.

[B]

Yeah, he, he, he took, you know, Jared Allen was guarding him and he was helping off of him. So Mike Brown made a sort of a. I mean, you know, I don't want to say you're desperate in game one, but sort of for the moment,

[C]

I mean, he really just subbed out Josh Hart for Lander Shammon. I mean, it wasn't like he'd. I mean, he had his other starters in the game. He just.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But he went to an all maximized. Sure. He just went all offense. Yeah.

[D]

Read the floor out, put the ball in Bronson's hands and like, let's just try to outscore him down 22.

[C]

See what you can do.

[B]

And so I want to say about seven possessions in a row, they just went to a very basic pick and roll where they forced James Harden into a switch and put Harden on Brunson. And Brunson got past him every single time.

[C]

Well, and the Cavs weren't even trying to stop that. They were doing the most casual rub switches ever. Just like letting James Harden get isolated on Jalen Brunson.

[B]

This is what I'm talking about when I basically said, you know, cognitive function ceased because there was the timeouts. It's a good point, but I would have accepted any sort of adjustment Brunson made. I want to say five or six baskets. He finally called timeout. And in the timeout they made an adjustment and they decided to double team, as you mentioned. And Kenny was asked after the Game, right. Bon temps. He was like, you know, how come he didn't adjust? He's like, well, we did adjust, but it was. They only adjusted after the lead had gone from 20 down to like. And then offensively, and this is what happens when you. When you have a collapse. It's never one thing. It's always multiple things. And so the Cavs missed some free throws. They had some. Some. Some possessions that were lost due to free throws, and they also stopped driving the ball. Everything that they did for the first three quarters, they started. Mitchell and Harden started foul hunting, and the referees didn't give it to them because they didn't deserve it at that point. And so it was their offense, you know, arresting, basically, in addition to the fact that they were just being plucked apart on defense. And there was just no. There was no attempts. There was no, you know, active attempts to stem the tide. And so this. This is, you know, this is absolutely going to go down as a game that the Cavs lost. I think maybe the Knicks fans wouldn't agree with that, but.

[D]

Oh, of course. Like, listen, Brunson going for 38 and Brunson catching fire in the fourth quarter. Lander Shammack coming in and giving him a spark, like, okay, that's all. That's awesome. And Knicks fans will remember that. They can celebrate that. This is a collapse by the Cavaliers of epic proportions. And the kind that just can kind of like, how do you bounce back from this? How does. How do you get that taste out of your mouth? You were up 22 with eight minutes left. How do you lose that game?

[B]

Yeah, it would have been better off if they got beat by 20 and the game was over in the fourth quarter. And they just said, well, we didn't have any energy from.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

You know, it would have been a much better situation because then you're like, well, we can. We can play better in game two.

[C]

I mean, it's crazy all the way around. I mean, you are right. They called the one timeout with 3:30 to go. But, I mean, I. Hey, it was just crazy to watch them just implode.

[D]

Well, and this was another Harden dud. And Harden, he'll have two or three good games a series, and then there. There will be duds. This was another more turnover than bucket performance. I think that's up to like, 32 of them in his playoff career. The Jazz, by the way, are.06 this postseason when he has more turnovers than buckets. I think you said the Jazz, The Cavs, they are.06. That six that's a lot in one playoff run. And then they just hunted them. Brunson was 7 of 11 when Harden was the primary defender on him and there was just like bring him into the switch, boom, attack them.

[C]

And the Knicks spent almost none of the game doing that either. It was like, I mean, Mike Brown is sort of out to lunch for a lot of the game. Like they were, they didn't really go at hard for most of it.

[B]

The Knicks game plan wasn't super effective. The Knicks were double teaming Harden and Mitchell and the Cavs were really smartly passing and then just really moving the ball. And you know, once you double team, you make the pass. It's four on three and the Cavs were attacking that four on three, like going downhill and attacking it. They, they said played a very smart, effective game for three quarters and then just played a very, very brain dead game from then on. And honestly, like in the fourth quarter when the game went to overtime like the Cav, the Cavs had no chance in that, in that spot. The other thing I'll say is that

[C]

Sam Merrill shot didn't go in and I thought it was in. It looked great and obviously it rimmed out. I was like, there's no, there's no way the Cavs are winning this overtime. Not with this place going insane. And, and with the streak they were on, I mean 44, I don't know if we ever said it was 44. 11 to end the game. 44 to 11 in 13 minutes.

[B]

It took a couple of really clutch shots for them to get the 11.

[C]

It was 39 to 8. I mean, it was just crazy.

[B]

Landry Shammat and Jalen Brunson are not good defenders, okay? And Jalen Brunson had five fouls for at least eight or nine minutes of game time. And the Cavs, as far as I remember, maybe I can be showing video that proves this. I don't think the Cavs ever went after him.

[C]

They also were getting the, they were getting the ball over at like 16 or 17 every possession. They were getting into stuff late. I mean, they had a shot clock violation I think to start overtime on their first possession. I mean they were just, they were, they were just a mess. I mean just a complete and total mess.

[D]

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[A]

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[B]

So let's talk about where this the Cavs go from here. Bond temps. The Knicks, I think very possibly could have played their worst game already and are up 1 0. You know my rule about never overreacting to game one. I wouldn't have overreacted had the Cavs closed this out and even won by 22. Because I didn't think the Knicks, you know, played very smoothly or savvily. I thought OG Anunoby coming back from the hamstring definitely looked rusty and not 100%. And this was, you know, he was playing the best basketball his career. When he had that injury against the Sixers, I thought, you know, the Knicks couldn't make a three for, you know, two plus quarters. So you have to assume, you know, like, I don't know what grade you would assign the Knicks in this game, but it was through three quarters. It was a D minus or D plus, whatever.

[C]

I mean it was probably an F. I mean they, they couldn't hit a shot. They were, I mean they were down 20. I mean it wasn't very competitive. And look, I, I think for, for as much as we've banged on the cast for the way they ended this game and they deserve it, obviously with the way the game ended. I do think if you're, look, if you can pull back to 10,000ft and get away from the fact that they just gave away this game on the road, which you don't want to do in a playoff series. Coming into the series, talking to people with the Cavs for the game, I think they were excited to get away from the rock em sock em robot series that they got out of in each of the first two rounds where they're playing Toronto, which was going to mix it up and be super physical and then obviously Detroit was going to mix it up and be super physical. Right. And the Knicks, like, yes, they have Mitchell Robinson, you know, they've got Josh Hartnell, Janobi, they've got some physical players but they, the Knicks don't play like that. Like they're going to get out and run and they want to, they're an offensive team. They're going to play that way. They're going to play at a faster pace. Like it all sort of leans into the stuff the Cavs want to do. And I thought the Cavs, like you said, for 40 minutes the Cavs played great. Like the Knicks came out and got a little bit of a, a hot start early. Mitchell Robinson made some plays early, they got early lead, but then the Knicks couldn't hit a shot and the Cavs just methodically walked them down and third quarter was great. Like it looked like they're going on their way to an awesome win that was going to really set things up going forward. So I think if you're the Cavs, I do agree to some extent with Kenny Axon being happy with the way his team played for how they looked in the first 40 minutes of the game. Now I probably wouldn't have said I was super proud of how they played when he gave up 44 to 11 to end it. But I do think if you're the Cavs, you can come back on Thursday and feel confident that you can get a win here in New York and that you have the ability to win games in this series and win this series. Like they look like a team that came in the season as co favorites with the Knicks, but it's just very hard to give away a game like this in a series and still win it. We talked about with Detroit giving away, you know, game five, last round at home. And if the Cavs do lose the series, they're going to think back on it. Like they'll. I'm sure they still think about game two against the Pacers last year.

[D]

I typically do not believe in momentum from game to game in a playoff series. This might be an exception. That was just such a horrific collapse. Like, how do you wash that stench off you and play again in 48 hours and, you know, and be mentally ready to play again in 48 hours, you know, and especially like, this is a team they finally, like Donovan finally got over the hump of never been in, you know, haven't made it to a conference finals. Uh, but like, you know, Donovan's got playoff demons. Harden has like, I mean, he needs Ghostbusters with all the playoff demons that he has. Like, and it. I don't know, man. I just. That one's going to linger, I think.

[B]

Yeah. You know, in talking to the Cavs folks before the game, there was a real collective, you know, I don't want to. They were. They felt a great relief. There was, you know, getting to the conference finals, getting through that series. There was sort of. You could tell, I felt they were not. They did not feel pressure. They felt good about what they had accomplished and they played like that. They played completely free. I mean, right from the start they looked completely at ease and you could see that they had this confidence about them that they had built up from getting those two road wins in Detroit. And I was like, wow. I mean, this is really something that could carry over. I mean, that's what was going on. And so you go from that to utter abject, being gutted and so, you

[D]

know, like an all time meltdown.

[B]

Yeah, there's a whole bunch of stats out there about like, you know, some three and 800, like serious. Like three at 800, what, one in five.

[D]

94 when a team had a 22 point lead with eight minutes left, I think is the stat that our folks.

[C]

Yeah, the only stat that matters is 44 to 11. Like that. That is a hard one to stomach if you're a Cavs fan, if you're a CAB member of the Cavs. And like you said, Brian, the Cavs came into this game with absolutely no pressure because, I mean, you're in New York, McMahon. You follow what's going on. Everybody here for the last week and a half has been Throwing a party about going to the finals and like talking about the ways the Dicks can beat the Thunder or the spurs in the finals. Like, it's just. This would be like, ah, they're going to beat the Cavs. It's going to be great. This is no problem. Everything is awesome. And the Cavs came in, they escaped from this Detroit series. They're the underdogs in this series. They've, like you said, big band. James Harden has had all these, you know, losses in the second round in recent years. He gets through Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, these guys break through. Kenny Atkinson gets to the conference, like for all these guys, like, man, it's a big accomplishment to get to the conference finals. They're the underdogs in the series. They could play free and easy. And that's how it looked like for.

[D]

Well, but even then though, they were down double figures in the second quarter and then they just dominated the next 20 minutes. Two quarters of basketball had the game completely in control and somehow some way just let Jalen Brunson say, hey, James Harden, come here, your guy's screening, I'm gonna torch you. And then they couldn't like from there, it just completely unraveled on them.

[C]

Completely.

[D]

Mike Brown just said in the post game press conference, it's no secret we were attacking Harden. And guess what? Our game plan is going to be in game two and three and four and we'll see if there's any more.

[B]

They just was looking. They targeted Harden nine times in the fourth quarter with, you know, forcing him into the one on one isolation with Brunson and they scored 17 possessions or 17 points in those nine possessions.

[D]

Yeah, I can't do that math, but it's almost two.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What was the stat? Stat? Williams sent me a stat about Harden. Brunson, what is it here? In the fourth quarter overtime, which James Harden's primary defender, Jalen Brunson was seven for eight. It's pretty good.

[D]

Gotta get you beat.

[B]

What happened on the miss?

[D]

Blow a lead?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't.

[C]

By the way, the one play James Harden made was he hit that shot with about 30 seconds ago to put him up too. And Hart and Brunson just came back down with the ball, went right around him and scored off the glass like, I mean, he might as well not have been there.

[B]

Well, and then Kenny said after the game that Harden was one of their better defenders, which,

[C]

I mean, that's just

[D]

not like he wasn't. There was no.

[C]

I understand, I understand not wanting to go out there and roast somebody, but, like, come on, man.

[B]

Like, he's already roasted, buddy.

[C]

You can't.

[D]

Yeah, Brunson took care of the roasting.

[C]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[D]

Like, come on.

[C]

Just. Just say we got to be better in game two. Like, come on.

[D]

Like, we got to figure out ways to help them. Say something.

[C]

Sure, whatever. Something, something, something else. Something that's not bad.

[D]

Don't tell us something that's just.

[C]

We just know it's not true. Exactly. Come on. That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, man. Yeah, there's a. There's a. There's a bunch of. A bunch of numbers. I keep seeing different versions, but it's hundreds and hundreds of situations like this where there hadn't been a loss. And I'm talking, like, it's just crazy.

[C]

I mean, it was. It was. One of the Wilder swings is. This place was dead. I mean, the Garden. I mean, the Garden was. Even in the second quarter, like, there was no energy again. I think everybody was just expecting a party. And the Cavs showed up and played well and got up and, like, The Knicks were 2 for 19 for 3 in the first half. At one point, they were 4 for 23 from 3. They couldn't hit a shot for the perimeter. Everybody in the guard was like, oh, yeah, well, the Knicks are going to lose. This stinks. And just completely flipped around.

[D]

You also had to be filthy rich even to get a nosebleed seat.

[C]

Well, that is true, but the. The crowd here, once the crowd had something to cheer for, I mean, the second the Knicks made any shot, like, when it got to, like, 19, the crowd was going crazy, but they just didn't have anything to cheer for for the longest time. And then all of a sudden, it was like an avalanche. And it just kept. The snowball just kept going down the hill. And the Cavs are like, oh, there goes the snowball. Watch it roll down the hill.

[B]

It's a beautiful snowball. It's really nice and round.

[C]

Just watch it keep growing.

[B]

Look at it pick up speed. It's really going now.

[C]

It's coming really fast.

[B]

Do you think we should get out of the way? Nah. All right.

[D]

Well, Martin probably thought to go around him like Brunson did the whole quarter.

[C]

Oh, man.

[B]

Oh. All right. I am pleased to move on from that showing by the Cavs to discussing what you witnessed firsthand on Monday night, McMahon. And that was the incredible performance of Victor Wembanyama, including the shot heard round the world with his 32 footer there in the first overtime. And you know, I didn't completely understand when we were doing the pod last night. Cause we were doing it right after the game. One of the reasons I think Wembanyama took that shot was because There was about 29 seconds left on the clock when he took it, which ensured that it would create a two for one. Which I think is one of the reasons why he took it. So that even if he missed it, the spurs would have had a chance to defend and have another chance. And that to me sort of personifies Victor Wembanyama. That he would, number one, have the guts to take that shot. Number two, have the arrogance to believe he would make it. Number three, have the ability to make the shot. And number four, do it in a way that was strategic. I think sort of sums up the way that whole game played out. And I'm sure that the mood in Oklahoma City after not losing a playoff game for weeks is a little bit tense right now. Now, yeah.

[D]

And the Thunder are familiar with this territory. It's not a comfortable situation, but they are confident. They lost the opener to the Nuggets last year, came back in one game two one won a seven game series. Same thing in the finals against the Pacers. Both of those were heartbreaking losses. Aaron Gordon hitting the game one in three for the Nuggets. Tyrese Halliburton hitting, you know, his millionth game winner of last season in the finals, Game one. So you know, they've been here, you know, as, as Mark Dagenham said, one thing he loves about this team is their ability to problem solve.

[B]

That was a great quote. I, I, I, I, you know, let's just put it this way. I was a little bit more impressed with that, that tact than Kenny Atkinson's after this game.

[D]

Sure. And, and you know, he loves his team's ability to problem solve, especially throughout the course of a playoff series. Having said that, it's a different kind of calculus, geometry, whatever damn math you want to bring up. When he put Victor Wembanyama in the equation and he probably geometry is probably

[C]

the best thing to say there. Probably geometry.

[D]

He creates problems that we've never seen in the NBA before and look as phenomenal as he was on the offensive end. And we can get into that. This game for the Thunder was lost when they had the ball. They didn't score enough points. They're not going to win games with Shay going 7 of 23. But why did she go 7 of 23? What was the primary factor in that? It was Victor Wimanyama. And they've got great point of attack defenders. Dylan Harper is a dog. Stefan Castle's a dog. Like they're throwing an extra body at him. Sean Sweeney, by the way, the last tactician to send the Thunder home in a playoff series was Sean Sweeney with the Mavericks. Sean Sweeney did a hell of a job orchestrating that defense from the bench. You know, give Ms. Johnson and his coaching staff their due credit. But when you've got this seven and a half foot guy with awesome mobility and unbelievable instincts where he can zone up, basically, and he can cover elbow down on both sides of the floor from three point line to three point line, he's like, he's not a rim protector. He's a large chunk of the floor protector. Look at the block shot that he had on Shea's baseline. Step back mid range jumper over another defender. Yes.

[C]

It's insane. What a fadeaway jumper over a guy guarding a Victor. Just goes, I'm just going to block it. Just going to go over you, over you both and block it.

[D]

There's another one where Shay has the ball. He's like right down on the block on the other side of the floor. And Wimy didn't block it, but Shea short armed it because Wimby was there and that. And that's a miss. And so you have, you have shots blocked. He had three of those. You have shots altered. He had a lot of those. And then you have shots that aren't even thought about because we ain't going in there. How many times do you guys just dribble all the way through on the baseline?

[C]

Yep.

[D]

Or probe and, you know, hit the brakes. A U turn. Wemby is the most dominant defensive player we've ever seen, and he had 41 points and 24 rebounds in his first conference finals game. And oh, by the way, played 49 minutes and the 49th minute was maybe his best. So kind of answer that question too.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, like you said, the thing that was amazing watching it was all the times where the Thunder are probably the best team in the league at getting to the rim. Our best team in the league at getting to the rim. And whether it was Shay, whether it was A.J. mitchell, who's great at it, like, all these guys would get in the paint and just be like, nope, I'm gonna turn right. Nope, I'm gonna turn left. I'm gonna do anything but shoot the ball. Where they would always just get to the rim, make a layup, or get to the. Or get to the rim. And hit a three foot floater. Cause you've got this guy who's just standing like somewhere in the vicinity that he could be 12ft away from you and he can block your shot and he could totally change things. And I do think you saw to me at least I'm. You were there, McMahon. So I'm curious what you thought. It felt like the Thunder started to figure stuff out as the game went along and I think, you know, it felt like when they had their best stretches, Shay in particular in the fourth quarter, like. And Jalen Williams I thought was pretty good about it too. It was like everything was really direct and fast and like I'm making a hard decision and I'm getting to a spot and I'm rising up and shooting because if you give Victor even like a second to react to what you're doing, it's over. You got no chance then because he's just going to come from wherever he's at and stop you.

[B]

I got a good spirited discussion slash argument today with Amman Shumpert and Danny Green doing some TV with them. Two guys who are NBA champions and you know, were known for their wing defense.

[C]

Yeah. Elite defensive players, both of them. Yeah.

[B]

And I, I was arguing and I know that you'll tell me if you think that I'm wrong. I was arguing that I don't think that the Thunder game plan against Wembanyama was flawed because if you look at the regulation now in the second overtime, he was absolutely, you know, awesome and ended the game. Put him in the dirt.

[C]

At which end are you talking about the game plan?

[B]

The Thunders defensive game plan against Wembanyama, which is to employ mostly wings and then have their big man, whether it was Holmgren or Hardenstein or Jalen Williams, be the secondary defender. But mostly it was Alex Caruso and Lou Dort and see if anybody else.

[D]

And some Jalen. Jalen Williams J dubbed the wing.

[C]

In the 27 plays that Alex Caruso defend was the final defender on Victor weMinyama. In game one, the spurs were 6 for 17. They were 1 for 9 on threes. They had six turnovers. They had 0.72 points per play. I'd say that strategy was pretty good. I thought were they to McMahon's point. I thought where they failed was at the other end of the game or the other end of the court.

[B]

Well, I'm just saying Danny and Shump were arguing that Chet has to be. Has to step up and take the assignment.

[C]

Well, Chet has to just be a thousand times better. Than he was in game one because he was terrible in game one and he has to just be much better.

[D]

I can understand their argument. Chet is the primary guy. I think Wemby was three of nine against him. And, you know, you do the math. I don't have the right in front of me, but he was 33%.

[B]

There you go.

[D]

Not that math, you stupid.

[C]

It was what, 11 for. I'll look up his number.

[D]

He was very efficient against everybody else.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In regulation he was 9 of 19.

[D]

Yeah, well, but some of those were. Were Moses Malone bucket, where he's getting three rebounds on a possession and finishing well.

[B]

I understand you're going to have to. If you're going to guard him with a wing, you're going to have to accept he's going to get some offensive rebounds. You don't want him to get nine.

[D]

Well, Caruso is great at making it tough to get the ball, to catch the ball, to catch it where you want it. If Wimby catches it where he wants it against Caruso, there's no hope or Jalen Williams or Lou Dort. The whole thing they've got to do is push him off his spot, you know, front him, deny him, there's help coming, all that kind of stuff. I didn't think it was. I didn't think it was a terrible defensive performance against Wimby despite the fact that he had 41 points, despite the fact that starting with that 30 footer, he outscored the Thunder 12 to 7 to close the game. I didn't think it was a terrible defensive performance against him. Again, I think this game and the Thunder think this game was lost because they weren't able to generate offense. And that gets back to. They weren't able to get Wimpy moving around. You have to, you know, make him move directions multiple times. Maybe you can catch him if you're going to be driving. You got to be able to catch him in a gore tot screen. You can't have him just able to roam and challenge at the rim. You know, you've got to be able to, you know, catch him a split second late on a rotation like Shay did on that dunk in overtime, which, by the way, he had that dunk in overtime and that was. That was his only points in the last two overtimes. That's why you say bon tips. You think they figured something out in the fourth quarter? It didn't carry over. You know, I. I'm sure there was some good film for him to watch, but it didn't carry over the, you know, the overtimes.

[C]

I. I mean, I thought it carried over in the first overtime. I mean, they. They had a chance to win the game, and I didn't and then didn't close it. But I, I mean, I'm with you, though. I thought they came in the game and they were, in my opinion, just way too passive going at Victor inside. And it was a lot of, like, we're going to zoom through the paint and not look at the rim. And so Victor could just stand there and look. I understand. Like, he's different than anybody we've ever seen, but, like, Victor was just standing there like this and like, well, we're not going to try that. And they just would go through and then they would, like, zoom in and then try to kick passes out. And because the spurs defenders know Victors there, like Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper and these guys and Devin Vassell can all just stay with their guy and they don't have to collapse on anybody. And then it's just, oh, we're going to throw the ball right to somebody on the perimeter, where a guy would typically be open for a three. That's what I mean. Like, it felt like as the game went on, they started to figure some of that stuff out. But I mean, again, you're. Like you said, I mean, he's the most dominant defensive force we've ever seen. He's like, he's breaking the game. Like, he's just breaking things that ever. Like the whole history of the sport, basically. There's all these things that if you typically do, it's going to lead to success. And because he's just standing there on the court, it's. There's stuff that just isn't going to work against him. And it's. It's going to be fascinating to see how they adjust and how they evolve because they will come up with new stuff, they'll try new. They'll have different things they can do. They're a phenomenal team with great coaching and a ton of versatile talent. But this is as big a challenge as anybody has ever seen trying to score against this guy. And quite literally, certainly. Yeah, quite literally. And you know, that. That was. I agree. I thought I. With you, Brian. I thought their defensive game plan against Victor largely was good.

[B]

I guess that's good news and bad news because.

[D]

Because he had 41.

[B]

Yeah, because like I said, it was juiced by the last overtime. I'm not arguing that. In the last overtime, in the last overtime, Victor outlasted everybody and he had nine points in that overtime. And then you throw in the most

[D]

minutes of his, maybe of his career, certainly of this.

[C]

That is the other thing that I do really think is something to watch is playing every other day and like we'll see if the Aaron Fox is back. But those five starters all played at least 44 minutes.

[D]

Hey, youngest starting lineup at a conference finals that we can track. They got fresh ladies and they.

[C]

Well, they do, but it's going to. Playing every other day for two weeks is going to be a challenge. And Luke Cornett really struggled in his minutes. I'm not sure how effective he's going to be in the series. Keldon Johnson, I thought.

[D]

And by the way, pulling Hardenstein as early as they did was about getting him matched up with Cornet minutes. Clearly they don't think Hartenstein's a great fit to match up against Wimby or they wouldn't have done that.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

But that was not like a reaction to the first two and a half minutes. That was, you know, game plan going in just to address that.

[C]

So they were going to take him out two and a half minutes into the game.

[D]

That's what Doc Degenault said.

[C]

How are they going to start game two?

[D]

Honestly, we'll probably find out 30 minutes before tip off. That's what you'd expect.

[C]

Do we think they're going to start two bigs in game two?

[D]

We'll see. That's a good question.

[C]

Well, I'm asking you, do you think they're going to start two bigs in game two? I don't.

[D]

I don't. I'm not sure. I honestly, I wasn't sure they were going to start two bigs for game one. I thought they might leave AJ Mitchell in the starting lineup with.

[B]

You did say that to me before

[D]

the game dub at the, at the 4 and kind of have just like this like super playmaking starting lineup. And that gets back to the Wimby dynamic. When the spurs are on defense of like you. To me, you have to have multiple playmakers on the floor against him because it's not going to be like this. This thing of Shay initiates at the top of the floor and just goes and creates it. Nah, dude, it's gonna have to be driving, kick, drive and kick, multiple actions, all that kind of stuff. And you know, and Shay like the intimidation factory, he didn't use the word intimidation, but he said you have to be smart and patient with Wimby, but you also have to be aggressive. And his exact phrase was don't be timid, you know, and they played timid

[C]

for a lot of the game.

[D]

When you get caught worrying about it, like worrying about just him rejecting everything he said, that's when the spurs can put a stranglehold on the game. And so they've got to find that balance.

[B]

You got to make him actually block the shot. You know, you can't. You can't give him a block. I mean, obviously, I'm not saying you drive right at him when you're giving up a foot, but, you know, you got to make him block the shot. You can't make him mentally block the

[D]

shot, which you got to make a move you got to make. If he's just able to kind of play, you know, in and out, avoiding three seconds in the paint. You're not scoring in the paint. You're not.

[C]

No.

[D]

It's going to look like when Jalen Williams drive to Wimby, pinned the thing and grabbed the rebound and went over and posed in front of the bench and had his little, you know, Kodak moment. Yes.

[C]

But it was amazing.

[D]

You gotta get him moving. And look Alex corrupted.

[B]

I would say that was a put it in the Louvre moment.

[D]

Yeah, that wasn't. That was exactly.

[C]

That was an iconic shot. That was an iconic shot.

[D]

And I'm curious to see how much, if any more attention they pay to Alex Caruso. Because the game plan all season long was live without scrub. So getting wide open threes.

[B]

I think they'll continue to live with it.

[D]

Well, during the regular season, he was 5:21 against the spurs, including 2 of 12 on Christmas when I think he missed the first 10.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

He went 8 of 14. I haven't updated since then, but going into that game in a Thunder uniform, he was a 40.3% three point shooter in the playoffs.

[C]

And he's not an awful shooter. I mean, he's not great, but he's not awful. And those were practice shots. Like, they're like, if he.

[B]

His flaw as a shooter is he's got a slow release. But. But if you have 20ft, you'll get it off.

[C]

Right? I mean, if they just give him those kind of shots and he's taken 14, I. I mean, he's. You should probably expect him to make four or five. I mean, I mean, you know, making eight is a lot, but like, those were like practice in practice shots, not like game shots.

[B]

Shay's 7 of 23 and whatever fallout as a result that led to shai being 7 to 23, that's a trade off. That San Antonio will probably accept.

[C]

If Shea and Chet aren't better in Game two and beyond in the series, then San Antonio's going to the Finals. Like, those two guys have to be a lot better. They'll be the first to say that.

[D]

It's real simple. Shea got the MVP trophy presented to him pregame, and Wimby sat right there on the bench and seethed. And Shea did not play up to that MVP standard. And Wimby sent a message and he's got a, you know, this message has to be repeated. It's. You can't send it one time. You got to send it at least four in a series. Wemby sent a message that said, I told you this and I meant it. I'm going to prove it to you. I'm the best. To paraphrase or to quote Stefan Castle, effing player in the world. And Shai's got the crown on his head. He's got two MVPs with a Finals MVP sandwiched in between. He's been the best player in the league for two years running. But Wimby is reaching down and trying to rip that crown off of Shea's head. And he's one fourth of the way. There's.

[C]

We talked about Elijah on Robinson on Sunday ahead of game one. That was Elijah on Robinson 2.0. And look, whether the Thunder win the series or not, Victor Wembanyama is the best player on the planet. Now, he showed that yesterday. Listen, the Thunder might win the series. Che deserved to win mvp, but Victor is the best player. You saw that in Game one.

[D]

He's the most dominant force in the league right now. Ain't no doubt about that.

[C]

I think he's just the best player. And, and if, you know, if Shay can win this series, they go on to win the title. Doesn't mean that there's a, you know, she's incredible. But that, that performance was the beginning, officially, to me, of the Victor era. And it started in game one.

[D]

Now it was at least a seven or eight LOL game where I just started cracking up when he did something. I mean, it was, yeah, he. He hits a 30 footer with a game in line, I crack up.

[B]

I had some LOLs tonight watching Cavs play. I don't know if that's the same.

[D]

Yeah, no, these, these are, These are pleasant LOLs. These are fun.

[B]

LOL.

[D]

More hoop collective podcast after this.

[A]

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[B]

McMahon. I heard you were distracted from your pickup game on Tuesday night.

[D]

I gotta be honest, wasn't playing well. Didn't mind getting, you know, getting, getting

[B]

to put it in Cavs parlance, spawn attempts. He was getting a little unlucky.

[D]

It was a very unlucky pickup performance. We're gonna go find Jacob play. Yeah, he has a little. He got a little something something. We're getting a rematch in San Antonio. I'm working on a gym right now. Anyways, I'm still. My, my record during these playoffs is 5 and 3. J kids record with the Mavericks is 205 and 205. And it's gonna stick right there because, oh, he didn't get fired. It was the mutually agreed to part way. You know that that's the, the in vogue way to announce these things. But let's just call it like it is.

[B]

The Cavs didn't blow that lead tonight. They mutually agreed to part ways with it.

[C]

They mutually agreed to lose the game. Both sides, both the Knicks and the Cavs agreed the Cavs would lose. And the Cavs said, sure, that'd be great.

[D]

So as soon as Messiah Jury got hired by the Mavericks, you knew this was a distinct possibility because coming out

[B]

of the draft combine in Chicago last week, it was a growing discussion.

[D]

There was widespread anticipation.

[B]

Good job.

[D]

Unfortunately, I was unable to get enough confirmation to beat the press release. But this was not a shock. And really all you had to do was watch Masaya Giri's press conference. He was asked straight up if J. Kidd was going to be the coach. And he said, we're going to evaluate everything from head to toe. Also, Jason Kidd was not aware Messiah Jirou was being hired.

[B]

That was a bad sign after J

[D]

Kid, by the way, tried to move up to the front office and become the president of basketball operations now.

[B]

Bad sign one.

[D]

Yeah. J Kid knew months in advance that wasn't going to happen. It's not like he was surprised he didn't get the job.

[B]

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, McMahon. Bad sign part one. Ready? Jason Kidd was not aware that Masaya Giri was being hired to be the team president.

[D]

Pretty, pretty bad sign.

[B]

Bad sign number two. Maybe not at all of them. But I heard that when the Mavericks had meetings with potential draft picks last week in Chicago that Jason Kidd wasn't always in the room.

[D]

I would say that's not a great

[B]

sign considering they have a lottery pick. And it's, you know, pretty important to me.

[C]

This, this all goes back to not, not the head to toe comment from Masai at his press conference, but when Masai talked about the Luka Doncic trade, what did he say about the Luka Doncic trade? That is now in the past. We are done talking about the Luka Docus trade and we are looking forward as an organization and we're moving past it. And I would say what they're trying

[D]

to do is clean house of anybody who had any level of involvement in that.

[C]

That's what I was getting to like. This is Messiah. Jiri is in charge. He is there. He is a huge personality. He is a fresh face and he is completely starting over with the Mavs.

[D]

Clean slate is the messaging from the

[C]

Mavericks 100% and that's what this is. We've got Cooper Flag. We're going to have another. You got the ninth pick in this draft. They're going to get another really interesting young player in the draft. We'll see what they do with Kyrie Irving whether they trade him or not. See if they can get Derek Lively healthy. You know, they're, they're moving forward, build around Cooper Flag and it's forward looking and forward facing and we're not thinking about the Luca trade anymore. We're not associated with. I mean, they are, but. But I'm saying that's what this is about.

[D]

They're trying to move past the Luca trade.

[C]

That's right. We're getting past all this stuff and like if Jason Kidd was still coaching the team, you'd still be thinking about the Luca trade like that. It's just, it'd be part of the whole thing. And it's now it's all about what's going on with Cooper, where are the Mavs going from here. And you know, it will be interesting to see what Masai Ujiri does in terms of hiring a coach. To me, I know he was there the past few years before this year, but I'd be going down I35 and I'd be getting Sean Sweeney. I'd be having him come back up I35 to Dallas. That'd be the end of my.

[B]

Sean Sweeney is lead associate head coach.

[C]

Associate head coach of the Spurs.

[B]

Of the Spurs.

[D]

Yeah. And I did check. Listen, Masai is definitely trying to be very buttoned up and tight lipped. I did inquire with a source who, familiar with his thinking. And I said, hey, would Sean Sweeney's connection with J Kid eliminate him as a candidate? Because Sean Sweeney was J Kid's right hand man in Brooklyn, in Milwaukee and then in Dallas. And, and I was told no, that that wouldn't eliminate him as a candidate. Like they would consider him as an individual, not a, you know, not as J. Kidd's right hand man, if it comes to that. I, I don't have at this point a list of candidates. I would say a couple things. There is like, there's, there's rumors flying around and I'm not gonna say there's like a big name college coach is being rumored. Messiah's track record is not necessarily swinging for big names. It's trying to find the next great coach. You know, he likes discoveries, Wendy.

[B]

Well, that's what, you know, when he hired Nick Nurse, he's hired two coaches.

[C]

He's hired Nick Nurse and he's hired Darko Rakovic. Those are the two coaches he's hired.

[D]

Right. And with Darko, the other guys, like some other candidates. There were Charles Lee, who is now a first time head coach in Charlotte, doing a really good job. Ms. Johnson, who's now first time head coach in San Antonio, is doing a really good job. Trying to think who else were the, the final. But you know, there were, it wasn't a bunch of like big name coaches is my point. Now I don't know which direction Messiah is going to go. Patrick Dumont, his MO Is the exact opposite. Let me get the biggest, most proven name with the best resume possible. Rick Welts as a CEO. Messiah Giri. But this is going to be Messiah. Search Mike Schmitz, our former colleague who's now the Mavericks gm, will, you know, be part of that process, you know, and then, you know, Dumont will be kind of kept abreast of things, but really not directly involved until they get it down to the last, you know, batch of finalists.

[C]

Well, like I said to me, this should be a very easy search. Like, John Sweeney is the top assistant in the league. He's familiar with the franchise. I look at what he's doing with the spurs, like, he's exactly what they need. So, you know, I, we'll see what they do. I mean, Messiah knows what he's doing, but to me.

[D]

But Sweeney would also fit, yes, you know, he would fit that track record from Messiah. Let me go find a really sharp assistant coach. Who's the next great coach? Not necessarily a guy who's got you know, some long track record as a head coach. So, so we'll see. I do think, you know, the, the Sweeneys, those types of guys will be part of the search. But where exactly it lands, you know, that I couldn't tell you. And by the way, this was like J. Kid obviously was the headliner. There were a lot of people who mutually agreed to part ways with the Mavericks today. You know, Matt Riccardi, who's an interim GM is, is out. Michael Finley's a TBD just as a by the way, but a bunch of scouts, assistant coaches, you know, analytics guys like Masai Ujiri inherited a situation where there's Donnie Nelson leftovers, there's Nico Harrison leftovers and he's going to run his own basketball operations department and he's in the process of, he's in the tear down process before he puts it together.

[B]

Well, the Mavericks mutually agreed to continue with Cooper Flag.

[D]

Oh, that's good. That's a good idea. I would do that too.

[B]

That's a key factor in the Mavericks situation. I think that's a key factor. Typically when you fire a coach who's had success and these last two seasons, I don't know how much you assign it to Kid because after Luka and then you had the injuries to AD and Kyrie, they tanked and then this year they tanked. So you know, I don't know how much of those 205 wins and losses were fair. But typically when you fire a coach who's had success and Kid took them to the Finals, you have a pretty good idea of who you're going to hire because you don't want egg on your face in this scenario because there's a new gm, the standard is different. So I would expect that there was

[C]

also a very desirable job because of the presence of cooperation flags.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

So it's not like they're going to have trouble hiring somebody. And by the way, I give credit to Patrick Dumont because that as Ban has reported, Jason Kidd had a contract I believe through 2030 and was owed north of $40 million. And that's a lot of money to eat on an especially when you extended him a year ago to keep him from going to the Knicks and or after turning him down from being able to go to the Knicks and he

[D]

got two extensions from Patrick Dumont, one during the Finals run and then again last year.

[C]

So for Messiah Jerry to go to Patrick Dumont and say, hey listen, I want to make a coaching change, there are not many owners that would say I'm going to eat 40 plus million dollars. They would say, hey, give this a year and see how it goes first because I don't want to pay that much money. So full credit to him for hiring Messiah Jiri and saying, hey, you're going to run the team and we're going to let you do it how you'd want to do it. And if that means we've got to spend a lot of money, then so be it.

[D]

And what I would say is Masai didn't necessarily go to Demont and say, hey, I want to make a change. Patrick Demont hired Messiah Jury and said, listen, don't worry about the money with J. Kidd. If you want to move on from him, you're fully authorized to make that decision, right?

[B]

Well, the Edelson family that owns the Mavericks has it.

[C]

They do have it.

[D]

It's a rounding error for them.

[B]

All right, so for the first time guys in history, both conference finals game ones went to overtime. So hopefully this is the beginning of two excellent playoff series that provide high level basketball. Although about that fourth quarter for the Cavs, but high level basketball and high level of entertainment. But you couldn't have asked for anything more over the last two nights.

[C]

It's pretty good. Pretty good stuff. I was waiting for McMahon to say something, but he didn't.

[D]

You've never waited for me to say something in your life?

[C]

No. Relax.

[B]

All right. Thank you so much to our producers Mark, Miles and Jackson. Thank you to McMahon and Bontemps. Thank you for listening and watching the Hoop Collective. We'll be talking to you later this week after Cavs Knicks Game two.

[D]

Adios, amigos.

[C]

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