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Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Lakers Need To Make A Move? + Teams To Watch At Deadline & OKC’s Historic Chase
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Hoop Collective: Lakers Need To Make A Move? + Teams To Watch At Deadline & OKC’s Historic Chase
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- [00:03]
A
Kids, they grow up so fast. One day they're taking their first steps and the next they don't fit into the tiny sneakers they took them in. You blink your eyes and their princess dress is two sizes too small. And their dinosaur backpack isn't cool anymore. But don't cry because they're growing up. Smile because you can profit off of it.
- [00:25]
B
For real.
- [00:25]
A
There are a bunch of parents on depop looking for the stuff your kid just grew out of. Download depop to start selling.
- [00:38]
C
Hello. Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday, late afternoon for me. Thursday, early morning in Los Angeles for our front office man, Bobby Marks. Thank you for getting up early for me, Bobby.
- [00:54]
D
Greetings from Los Angeles where we've, I think we're going to hit a record high today of 86 degrees in December. How about that?
- [01:02]
C
Wow. I'm afraid to know how many hotel rooms are being canceled in Vegas for Laker fans who had booked for this weekend. Joining us from Detroit, Michigan is Vince Goodwill. Vince, if you were a Laker fan and you had plans to go to Vegas for this weekend and the Lakers got blasted by the spurs, are you still going in la or are you, can you not be there when your beloved Lakers are not in the NBA cup semifinals?
- [01:29]
E
There's still stuff to do in Vegas. I mean, unless the 86 degree thing is just so alluring that you can't get away from it. You can, that's what a four hour drive from LA like, you're probably not getting. You might, you might get on a cheap flight, but you might be driving. You still go over there and hang.
- [01:46]
C
Cause I was thinking like, you know, you know, it'll, it'll materially affect Vegas's business with the Lakers not going there. But now I'm like, you know, if you plan to go, just go. Why wouldn't you just go? Still, I, I think if I was a Laker fan, I would still just go, why not? Anyway, I am in Zurich, Switzerland. This is my first stop. I'm on this little whirlwind thing that I'm on the, the bucket list item that I'm doing, guys, is not until tomorrow. I don't know if that narrows down. There's people who are guessing. That might narrow it down. Tonight though, I am going to Aston Villa vs FC Basel in the Europa League. Proper football here in Switzerland. Does that do anything for you, Vince? Does that mean, do those words that I just said mean anything to you?
- [02:32]
E
I would, I would love to say that they mean everything to me. I would love to say that, Wendy. I'd be lying.
- [02:39]
C
Yeah. Well, Aston Villa is partially owned by Wes Edens, who owns the.
- [02:43]
E
Oh, the Milwaukee Bucks.
- [02:44]
C
Who owns the Milwaukee Bucks. So three stops on this trip. First stop here in Switzerland. So thank you for getting up early. The Lakers probably are still sleeping, Bobby.
- [02:58]
D
Oh, boy.
- [02:59]
C
So they have, you know, and we have been very complimentary of them with a little, you know, I don't want to say smoke and mirrors because Lucas played great, Austin Reeves has played great. They've gotten good production up and down the lineup. But we have talked during the season about how their record is like the best. Best possible scenario because their defense is not the defense of a team that is, you know, top three in the West. They've just been awesome on offense and particularly great in clutch. I think they're eight. No. In games that have got to go to clutch play. And, you know, the idea here is they get up to speed with LeBron, like, they start powering up. But if you're looking for a reason and, you know, you don't make any definitive things, if you're looking for a reason in December to say why the Lakers aren't necessarily, you know, a bona fide contender, which, you know, Rich Paul said on his inaugural podcast, but certainly he's not the only person that feels that way. You got it against the spurs, who, without Victor Wembanyama on Tuesday night, like, really showed the Lakers defensive weaknesses.
- [04:05]
D
Yeah, I mean, the lack of athleticism was certainly alarming. I would say the game, the score of the game was probably not indicative because Marcus Smart went crazy and had, you know, basically hit, I think, eight or nine threes and had 26, 27 points. This probably could have been a. A 30 point game here. The athleticism of the spurs guards really had their way. There was a point in the game last night when I was sitting there watching, and if you, if you were just solely looking at the box score, you would have. You would have thought the Lakers had their way in the paint because they were basically doubled points, double the points. But then you look at the free throw disparity because San Antonio was attacking like crazy, whether it be Fox or Castle. They had waves of. Of guys. It was almost like kind of a minor version of kind of what we've seen in Oklahoma City here. And the one thing that the Lakers don't have, they have a lot of guys that can get angles, you know, angles to the basket here. And they attacked and they basically, they. They turned they basically took, made The Lakers take Deandre Ayton off the court and go LeBron at the five or really at the five and really go three guards with that, that group here. And it was a little bit alarming as far as what, as far as what you saw last night with, with the Laker game.
- [05:31]
C
Yeah, Vince, I think I'm just looking how many days the spurs had to prepare. So this is a thing about the NBA Cup. So they had, they, they played, they played on Monday. So actually they only had one day. I thought they maybe had a couple of days. But they certainly prepared a game plan that, you know that, that, that you're going to see. By the way, The spurs are 17 and 7 2. And even though Victor wasn't ready to go, they were, they are now 8 and 3 since Victor went down with that calf injury and they were playing well. But you could tell that they were able to, you know, Mitch Johnson like fully baked in a game plan. They, they had something ready to go. And I think in addition to what we're going to learn about the spurs, which I will talk about them in a second, this is what the Lakers have to think about as trade season sort of opens on Monday. There was a time this year where I'm not sure whether the Lakers could have looked at this team and said, yeah, we need to really try to do something to, to fix this roster if we're going to be contenders. But they're playing strong enough that they should consider it. And this just drove home that they really need probably some wing athleticism, wing defense. If they're certainly, if they were entering in a playoff series with the spurs, that would be something that would be pretty concerning.
- [06:46]
E
I mean, not just the Spurs. Think about the problems you have. You would have if you win in a series against the Phoenix Suns. Think about the problems you'd have if you went against the Houston Rockets or the Minnesota Timberwolves who don't have a plethora of wings but have elite wings. Like there's not with the way that the Lakers roster is built and it's no fault of anybody. It's just, you know, Mana falls from heaven when you get Luka Doncic. But when your three best perimeter players are all minus defenders on the ball, there's a lot of compensation you have to do. By the way of team building like Austin Reaves tries like Stan Van Gundy made a point last night that in both points I thought were interesting when the he said Luka Doncic is one of the two best offensive players in the history of the game. He just doesn't get back on defense. I want to stick a pin in that two best offensive players in the history of the game thing. But he was just saying he doesn't get back on defense. And then you got LeBron who may not be able to get back on defense. He has to pick and choose his spots. It creates. In a league that prioritizes speed. This is the fastest paced NBA that we've ever seen. The one thing you cannot have is poor transition defenders and poor point of attack defenders. And that's exactly what the Lakers have. So it almost negates their strength like to the point. Last night, Wendy, it looked like three or four different times the spurs gained like a 20 point lead on the road without their best player. And we don't consider the spurs to be any level of serious contender this year. And yet I'm feeling like they handled.
- [08:21]
C
The game with ease at the start of the season. I was not, you know, despite my, my, my self procl about you never put a ceiling on Victor Wembanyama. It's a little bit of a pun. I was not prepared to say that the spurs were a top six team. Now part of the reason why that looks ridiculous is that the Western Conference, some of these teams that we were taking as teams we thought were going to be bona fide top six teams, such as the Clippers, for example, have woefully underachieved and you know, the Wolves have not played well, et cetera. But part of it is because the spurs have shown what their perimeter can do and Stefan Castle had a brilliant game in this one and you know, he is now at full power from injury. By the way, Victor looks like he's trending towards being able to go on Saturday, which they're going to need. You know, we'll get to the Thunder in a minute here, but they're going to need everything they've got for that. But if that is indeed the case, the spurs will be at full power. So their team. Even though we've seen injuries to, to Castle, we've seen Dylan Harper go out a couple of times, we've seen leaving Luke Cornett has missed time. De' Aaron Fox obviously missed I think the first seven or eight games of the season. But when you see this fully formed team and you see the kind of pressure that they can put on you because of their perimeter, I mean, you know, Castle is a guy who is a way Bobby, a way more dynamic player than you know, obviously he had a Great colle college career. But from day one, the spurs were like, they were they. From day one. The spurs are not an organization that, you know, brags about its players. It's not who they are. They believed from day one that they had. And they had scored huge in the draft with Castle and to the point where he was. Where they were, like, almost as excited about Castle as they were about having Victor. As laughable as that sounds like, you know, obviously, Victor is a complete one of one. But they were like, we've got our two guys now. And, you know, not everybody has agreed with them, but this type of performance, you know, this is, you know, the most important game Castle's played in the NBA, Right? Can we agree with that? And he. He comes out on the road and delivers that performance. It's. It's. It's affirming about where the spurs are as an organization.
- [10:47]
D
I saw his. I saw his parents after the game in the hallway in the back area, and I said to dad, his dad, I said, you gotta love a guard that can rebound, man.
- [10:59]
C
Yeah, he averages seven assists and six rebounds a game.
- [11:01]
D
You know, you're watching it. And I almost chuckled to myself. And I. And I, you know, watching San Antonio in general, because we, you know, we come up with sometimes these fake trades and we do these, like, you know, hypotheticals whenever these big names become on the market and all that. And I said to myself, I will never put a. Or I will never allow someone to put Dylan Harper or Stefan Castle's name in a fake trade.
- [11:26]
C
Right. Like.
- [11:28]
D
Because I think watching it in on TV compared to watching in person is so much different and how much these guys still have to grow because there are times last. Last night and in general where these. Both of them want, like, you want to rip your head out, you know, like, you know, the spurs are up 16, and Dylan Harper tries like a reverse alley, reverse layup off an alley oop. And Austin Reeves comes down and hits a three to cut it to like 13. And, you know, it's like, you know, some of that stuff that. That youngness in them is. Is a little bit maddening. But they've got. They've got special guards. I mean, Harper's coming off the bench for them. They've got a lot of different ways. You know, I was sitting next to a scout and they. We. You know, they were talking about Luke Cornett, you know, the value that they've been able to get out of Luke Cornett with Victor out. That didn't happen last year, right?
- [12:19]
C
Yeah, well, that's, you know, part of the reason why they perform so well. I mean, you. The thing I like about Castle. Well, not the thing, but something I like about Castle is that he seeks contact. You know, gets to line seven times a game. I mean, you, you know, the three guards haven't played a lot of games where all three of them have. Have all played. So the stats kind of hard to compare because, you know, there's only going to be so many minutes available. But when you look at what these guys, these three guards do on a, on a night in, night out, when it comes to their scoring ability. So, okay, so you may have a night, one night where Fox might score 27 and Castle might have 12, but you, but you put it together, these guys between the three of them are averaging close to 60 points a game. And they get to the line because Fox gets the line too. Because Fox gets. Beats your perimeter defense and gets downhill. I mean, that's what he's basically designed his game around. And so Castle gets downhill, Fox gets downhill. You know, they put a lot of pressure on you. And so, I don't know, you know, the one thing, when the spurs signed Fox to that massive contract extension this offseason, Bobby, which, you know, you wrote, talked about at the time, it, you know, we're in this second apron era. And you know, when you, you're like, man, that's. That, you know, they're going to have to pay Victor. Like, yes. Because this is one of the things I've talked. When I talk to opposing teams, they're like, you know, how are they going to keep all those guys? True. Like, they have to keep those guys happy and they have to keep the pay those guys. But Castle is in his second year.
- [13:59]
D
Yeah.
- [14:00]
C
Fox is in his first year. Victor hasn't gotten the, the money yet. Like, they're, you know, while we live in this area where you, like, how do you keep all the guys happy and paid? Because these guys are so good and they're so young, they're on rookie contracts. So they, they have, they can add to this roster and they have a while before they would have a crunch here. So, like, you know, you're looking at the spurs and you're like, man, like, you know, they're set up to really do something here over the next couple of years, basically forming a challenge to Oklahoma City, which, you know, we're going to see manifest itself on Saturday.
- [14:38]
D
Well, and that's like, you know, you know, Vinnie sees this in with Detroit. You know, like when Kate Cunningham got His max a couple summers ago, like, everyone was like, wait a minute, like, you know, he had been injured and you know, like, is he a max? And I think whenever a player gets a max, whether it be the 25 or 30% or salary cap or 35%, you're always, you're always thinking that as a franchise level player. And it's sometimes it's right, but sometimes it's based on how that player fits the timeline as far as where your roster growth is here. And as you hit it with, with San Antonio, you know, they've got two guys on rookie contracts or three guys on rookie contracts. When you, when you have Victor there, they're making probably not even more than $20 million. So you can, you can justify that. Now if those two players were, you know, making max deals or three players, then it'd be like, yeah, maybe you can't do that with Fox here. But they're in, they're in great shape. You know, they're in great shape where they are roster wise, draft wise. They still have things coming down their way. And I, and the one thing, you know, when we get into trade season here, like what I've wrote about San Antonio, I look at them very similar to what Houston went through last year. Like, Houston, you know, finishes with one of the top, you know, records. And I said, well, let's just see who they are when we get to the playoffs. Like, let's see, like this team hasn't even sniffed. The San Antonio team hasn't sniffed the plane.
- [16:04]
C
Houston didn't get out of the first round. I mean, it was a competitive, it was a very competitive series.
- [16:08]
D
But so maybe, maybe that doesn't happen. And we said, wait a minute, they need a, they need a six, nine, athletic guy, you know, so like that, that's the biggest thing for me is like, you want to see who they are before you can kind of start, you know, plotting what's their next move.
- [16:24]
C
That's very fair.
- [16:25]
E
I will say this, Wendy. Rebuilding seems to be both tougher than ever, but also leads to more unrealistic expectations. Because when you think of where San Antonio was two years ago, even when we're talking about what they're doing in sp, not getting Wemby right, or not having Wemby where Houston was three years ago, 22 wins, then 41, then boom, where they are, Detroit, 17 wins, worst losing streak in NBA history, 44 wins, and then boom, top of the East. There's going to be a lot of unrealistic expectations for rebuilds to have these things turned around in two years flat when I don't know if that's actually the NBA that we live in. But you have reasonable examples of things that did not involve a meteor necessarily dropping into your lap. And reasonable franchises other than Wemby, other than Wemb is the extraterrestrial. But you know what I'm saying, like people will have unrealistic but very visible expectations that this thing should be turned around in 24 months because look at what happens in these other places.
- [17:34]
C
Right. Well, so we're going to have a lot of hand wringing about tanking later this season because this is a very good draft and there's a bunch of teams that are. Some of the. There's stealth tanking already happening in places and there's outright tanking happening in places. The problem is is that like the difference between the spurs rebuild and the Jazz rebuild is as you said, the lightning bolt. Like you know, and you know, Cade becoming an all NBA player is driving that Pistons turnaround. Yes, there was good picks that were made. Yes, there's development going on there. But if they don't slam it out of the park, I mean they got the number one pick. But if Cade is just a good player and not a great player, it's a different outlook. And look like you can. And we have praised the Thunder, the Thunder do so many things incredibly well from finding second round players to, to, you know, winning trades to player development. If Shay doesn't turn into an mvp, they're not a championship team. And Sam Presti, if he was speaking, Sam Presti would say that. So like if you're a Jazz fan or you're a Wizards fan, for example, if there's any Wizards fans left, you're saying, well, why can't this be our team? Like how does San Antonio, how does, you know, how does this happen? Well, you know, that's why you tank. You tank so that you can win the lottery or even if it's not number one, but you can get a high enough player that you can get that. And that's what this, the, the freak, the whole freaking league is basically about. That can you get that guy? And the spurs have the guy and have done a really good job with the other stuff. And look, they made their trade, Bobby, they made their trade for Fox. But they still have, they still, they still have more they can do because of the, you know, the picks that they own. And that's what Utah has to. Utah has a. I think Utah has even, I think Utah's got The most picks in the next seven years than anybody. Even more than, than the.
- [19:39]
D
Well, they, they, they consolidated a bunch of those to get that, that Phoenix pick in 31.
- [19:43]
C
That's right.
- [19:43]
D
So they. Yeah, listen, they're in. Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting. Like, you know, Utah and the Wizards, it's like, you know, it's almost like evaluating like minor league baseball teams as far as your farm system.
- [19:57]
C
Right.
- [19:57]
D
Like, who's got the best farm system here as far as where these, where these teams are and you know, you can draft and draft and draft forever. Doesn't mean you're going to have a bunch of young, good players. And I'm not saying that's the case here, but we're still kind of waiting for that blue chip prospect in Utah. You probably seen a little bit of Keonte George and who is that?
- [20:18]
C
They believe, they believe, they think the world of Ace Bailey.
- [20:20]
D
But yeah, and he's Bailey then that's why they took him. That's why they took them. Yeah, right.
- [20:24]
C
But he's still, you know, he's still a, you're, you're envisioning it, you're not seeing it per se.
- [20:30]
D
Yeah, same with the Wizards. Right.
- [20:33]
C
By the way, you mentioned when Cade got that contract, Bobby. Yeah, Vince, it wasn't an auto max, was it? Like now it seems laughable, but like when, because of Cade's injuries and like that wasn't like a no brainer Max.
- [20:48]
E
It felt like it was to me. It felt like it was.
- [20:50]
C
Well, it was, it was to them. They did it on day one. I mean, I didn't think it was a no brainer max. I mean, again, really, it's a laughable.
- [20:58]
D
Oh, it's your fun. It's your fun Max.
- [21:00]
C
Well, the fun Max is dying, but yes, that is a classic example of the fun max. Do you know, Vince, the fun Max concept. Have you heard me ever talk about it?
- [21:12]
E
I've heard it. I don't think I've heard you flesh it out.
- [21:14]
C
Yeah, well, there's three levels of max contract. 25% of the cap, 30% of the cap, 35% of the cap. And so, you know, it's a max contract, but it's significantly less than, you know, what a guy's looking for when.
- [21:28]
E
He'S not the big boy. Max, as I call it, I call it 30%.
- [21:32]
C
Typically a player, a player when he's, you know, 22, 23, he hasn't had severe injuries, he hasn't had scars on his career, hasn't had, you know, playoff failures. You know, he doesn't, he doesn't have a wandering eye like he wants to go play with some other team. And, you know, I'm sure they've all made plenty of money, but, you know, this is the first. This is a generational wealth where your family will be taken care of for generations. You know, the, you know, the nine figure deal. So it's fun and it's easier to bet on those players, too. I have to rework all of this, Bobby, and maybe you and I should.
- [22:10]
D
Well, now you have to take into consideration the fun max. That doesn't really turn into fun when they earn all NBA. So that's.
- [22:16]
C
Well, that. And that's up with Kate and Evan.
- [22:19]
D
Moble and Evan Mobley.
- [22:21]
C
They skipped fun. But, like, it will be fun for Jalen Williams because this game's not going to make it. But the fun for Jalen Williams is.
- [22:32]
E
Fun for Sam Presti.
- [22:34]
C
Yeah, right. Well, I think that there was a time last year where the, where the Thunder were hoping that they could maybe try to get away with not giving Chet Holmgren the full max. There was like some thought like, you know, can we get Chet for slightly less? And then Chet was a tent pole in their championship. And, you know, in the wake of James Harden, which basically that was a thing there, you know. You know, so many people talk about the James Harden trade for decade plus. The bedrock of the James Harden trade was the evaluation to not give Harden the max. And they did it because they had Westbrook there, they had Durant there, they had Serge Ibaka. They had all these guys to pay. They had to make a decision. But if they'd have evaluated Harden as a first ballot hall of Famer, they would have given him the max and figured it out.
- [23:28]
D
Right?
- [23:30]
C
So having had that, one of the things about Sam Presti is he has learned from, you know, he, he would tell you he hasn't been perfect. He has learned from his mistakes, which is part of the reason why you want to give a GM in a front office, you know, more than two or three years. You know, you let them learn from their mistakes. And so they made sure they didn't mess around. They took care of Chad. The guy raises a banner like, we're going to make sure you get the max. But. But it is a kind of a small victory. Not that they wanted this to happen, but that Jalen Williams will, will not be able to qualify. So that will save them money. But anyway, so the three max levels, the fun max was given to me By a, by a gm. He was, he presented the concept to me and I just stole it. I've opened. I won't say who it is, but I stole it from him. And then I developed the second max being the stress max, because then that's when Durant left, that's when LeBron left. That's when there's guys who maybe want, and especially in the apron era, where they won a second max contract and maybe they're really good players, but they're not great players. And all of a sudden you're paying them 30% of the cap and now they've had an injury because now they're 26 or 27, not 22, 21. Now they're looking around, you know, now they're, you know, they, you know, there's. Now they've run through a coach or two. You know, there's battle scars and so there's stress. There's stress both ways. There's stress from the player. Is the team going to offer me the max? They're not. I'm out of here. They're stressed from the teams. Is this guy going to commit to us long term? I mean, the whole reason they put in the super max concept was to try to take the stress out of the max. And then the third max, I call the legacy max, because if you're going to give the guy that legacy, you know, this is what the, the, the Bucks were so happy to give Giannis his third max, you know, they wanted to give, make sure, you know, legacy player, you know, the, the Cavs and the, and, you know, would have dreamed of being able to give LeBron the legacy, Mets, etc. But you know, it's a big number. But anyway, I've gone on a rant.
- [25:31]
E
More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [25:35]
B
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- [27:03]
D
Let's drive.
- [27:10]
C
On Saturday, we get to see the Thunder. They dismantled the Suns. The Suns were obviously missing some guys. I missed this game, Bobby, because I was flying overseas. I didn't feel the need to go back and analyze it too much.
- [27:23]
D
It happened quick. I mean, it was 7, 2 to start and then it got, and then it got to 10 and then it just kept on snowballing from there. We said this on the show on, on NBA Today on Wednesday. It's just that for a team that's coming off an NBA championship, there's so much hunger there. Right. It almost feels like they're playing with an edge. You felt like there was still another gear left with this group. It wasn't a clean seven game series against Indiana. There's probably people whispering, saying what would have happened if Halberton had stayed healthy. Right.
- [28:00]
C
But I think there was a reasonable chance that the Pacers were winning that game.
- [28:04]
E
Yeah. Yeah.
- [28:06]
C
Because the Thunder, Vinnie, the Thunder did not play well. It's lost to history and maybe you never know. The Thunder did not play well in the second half of that game by their standards.
- [28:16]
D
Yeah. But do they come at you in waves? Oh, boy, if it's not. And Jalen Williams, you could see him starting to get his groove back out there. And no, they've got no Hartenstein. But then you have AJ Mitchell coming off the. I mean, there's just so many different, different levels of guys here. We, we put up a stat on the show yesterday that and I didn't do it. We didn't do it to diminish Shay. But it just shows you the beauty of the roster. They're, they're plus 19 when Shay's on the court and a plus 16 when he's off the court. You know, like, you know, when we.
- [28:49]
C
We talked about the mvp.
- [28:51]
E
Yeah.
- [28:51]
D
I mean, we talked about Giannis a couple weeks ago when he got her in the differential when he's on the court and off the court. But I just think that's the. Shows you how. How they built this roster. I was going to put up a graphic today, but I didn't want to, like, look at it to be snobbish where just to remind people of all these draft picks that are coming right like that. That's.
- [29:11]
C
Well, it probably won't happen, but there's a scenario that the Thunder could have three lottery picks.
- [29:18]
E
Yeah.
- [29:19]
C
In this draft, they have the Clippers pick unprotected. They'll get that no matter where it goes. The Jazz. I do not. I believe the Jazz will make sure that their pick doesn't convey. But, you know, if the pick is nine or higher, the Jazz pick goes to the Thunder. And then what's the third one?
- [29:35]
D
Sixers.
- [29:36]
C
Sixers. Which. The Sixers.
- [29:38]
D
Top four protected.
- [29:39]
C
Top four protected. The Sixers are probably going to make the playoffs.
- [29:45]
D
Probably low teens.
- [29:46]
C
There was a day a couple of weeks ago where the Sixers were struggling a little bit. And if you looked at the, you know, if you had frozen the standings in that moment, they would. They would. The Sixers were the 14th pick, so there would have been three lottery picks. But they're most likely getting that pick wherever it falls.
- [30:04]
E
And so Adam Silver needs to come in and use his commissioner powers in the best interest of the game, I believe is the term, and say that the Thunder Clippers trade is now fully adjudicated and say that nothing is owed to anybody anymore. We are not. No more draft picks to wave the white flag. It's over. It's. It's done. Like the horse is beaten, like that sort of thing.
- [30:33]
D
Wait till we get next year when. When they have to swap first.
- [30:36]
E
That's what this is, what I'm saying. The commissioner needs to step in at this point. Wendy. Oklahoma City's practices are harder than their games when they practice against each other. When you do split squads and everything else. And Lou Dort is guarding Shay, Lou Dort is getting a bigger workout guarding Shay, and Shay is getting a bigger workout being defended by Lou Dort than anything that they are getting in actual game competition. Like it is a joke.
- [31:04]
C
Well, so this stat. So last year they kind of started off a little sluggish. They started off 11 and 4. So over their last 82 games now, so that full season, they're 72 and 10. And their point differential in that is 14 and a half. They've averaged 14 and a half. So you go back and look at that Bulls team or the 172, or you go back and look at the warriors team, that 173, and they were not that good. So this would be the best differential in. Hold on one sec. So. And Jackson. Jackson gave me that stat. I feel like there was something. There was another stat in there. Jackson with Shaigl De Salexander, who. He's. Oh, here it is. The 13th game. This 13th game this season when he sat out the entire fourth quarter. It's crazy. You mentioned the commissioner stepping in. This reminds me as a guy who grew up as a Cavs fan in the 80s. The Stepien role, which was. Oh, yeah, was after Ted Stepien who kept trading away draft picks. You know, what was it, Bobby? Like four or five, six years in a row? When they sold the team, he sold the team and it was bought by Gordon Gund. The only way Gordon Gund would buy the team was if he could get first round picks back. And David Stern at the time worried that the Cavs were going to fold, actually gave the Cavs draft picks back. He created. He didn't take the picks away from the teams they traded to, but he created extra first round picks. I think there's one or two that he gave back to the Cavs so that an owner would buy them. Because somebody came in going, why do I want to buy this team? They're awful. They lose all this money and they don't have, like their next seven first round picks. Like, so. The NBA is a little different than it was in the early 80s, but, you know, the commissioner does have power.
- [33:05]
E
Is it? Are we sure? Because the Lakers, I remember, won the title in 82, and then they drafted James Worthy, number one. And the Celtics had arguably one of the three to five greatest seasons in the history of basketball. I think they won 67 games and then they came away with Lynn Bias, who wound up dying the next day. Like, it gets kind of morbid there. But the rich usually get richer. In the NBA, it's your job to get rich, and it's your job to find the fool who will allow you to get rich. I think that's what this league has always been about. This whole thing about parody is a pipe dream. I'm going to try to have a, you know, off the record, you know, pull Adam Silver to the side conversation, get grump, move Grumpy Bass out of the way for a few seconds and tell Adam, enough with the parody. Nobody likes parody except for you and the owners who you were trying to buy franchises. The franchises have changed hands. There's been more franchises changing hands in the last 15 years than any point in NBA history. Nobody's going anywhere. Nobody's moving. I mean, well, maybe someone's moving, right? But you don't have to sell this pipe dream anymore. Dynasties are good, per se. I don't want to spend my next seven summers in Oklahoma City. I don't want to be eating Cattlemen's every night, like trying to fight off weight gain. But this is kind of where we are at this point.
- [34:31]
D
But don't we have parody for teams two to 30?
- [34:35]
E
You saw that last night.
- [34:39]
C
Yeah, well, that's true. I mean, the thing about it is that for the casual fan, parody is often not attractive. Fans, especially fans who are just sort of loosely interested, love dynasties. And it creates good business for the NBA typically. But the casual fans don't make the rules. The owners make the rules. And you know, the owners want to know that they have a chance. They don't. They, they, they. They like the idea of that. So. Yeah, but look, the second apron is. It has teeth and it affects everybody. And you know, the, the Thunder now have three max players. The. They're not paying the max yet. This is sort of the last year where they. You know, the thing is, Bobby, it's almost unheard of that a championship team returns everybody in its rotation. You know, it just doesn't happen, especially.
- [35:28]
D
That the two of their. Their last draft picks are injured or in, you know, topic sick. But, you know, they're. They. We haven't even seen those two either.
- [35:38]
C
Right.
- [35:39]
D
And they, and they. Yeah, I mean, it's. It is a rarity that you return every player.
- [35:46]
C
Yeah. So. And so next year is when the, the teeth come in. But like the, The Thunder will have some tough choices coming up, but because Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren are still on their rookie contracts, they've able to. They've been able to roll this team right over. And so they're going to have some tough calls with Lou Dort and Isaiah Hartenstein. Like, those are the sort of the first two ops, don't you think, Bobby? Like, yeah, yeah, but they can, they can. They can bring this team back next year. Like, it's. I don't think they'll be starting to be stressed as long as they're okay with spending the money, which I think they will be. And right as they're are going to get super duper expensive, they're expected to get this new arena which is, you know, they're in the process of building which, you know, should add some revenue to them when they need it. So. Do you know there's a plan in Oklahoma City to build the largest building in America in Oklahoma City? Did you know that? No, you're talking about Cattlemen's. Vinnie, here's a question. Number one, you know, they haven't broken ground on it yet, but. Taller than the World Trade Center. Taller than the. What do they call the building in Chicago now? The Willis Tower?
- [37:00]
E
Yeah, taller than that.
- [37:02]
C
It's going to be. I mean, you know, it's not built yet, but they've announced it. So it's, It's. You know, if I was like some sort of like poet or like really good writer, I could like make some sort of discussion about the building of the biggest building in Oklahoma City while these thunder are being built too, like this, you know, the biggest building would not be in New York or Los Angeles or Chicago. It would be in Oklahoma City.
- [37:29]
E
But why? What is the advantage of building the world or the United States biggest building and putting it in Oklahoma City? No disrespect to my friends in Oklahoma City.
- [37:40]
C
That's a reasonable question. I don't know. I'm just, just telling you that I didn't make that up. That is a plan that they're going to do. And there's going to be like a hotel like in the middle of it, Vinnie. So you can like, you know, you can get gorgeous views of the. Of the heartland. When you can stay in that hotel.
- [38:02]
E
This gets funnier. Funny. Like, what are the views going to be like? I'm just curious. What are you going to see? No body of water that you're gonna run into.
- [38:12]
C
Excuse me, sir. Lake Heffer. Hefner. Lake Hefner. Do you know about Lake Hefner?
- [38:20]
E
What the hell is that?
- [38:22]
C
See, I feel like it's my duty to defend the center of America. Bobby, do you know about Lake Hefner?
- [38:32]
D
I don't think I do.
- [38:33]
C
There's a man made lake, I believe it's west of Oklahoma City that they built. And they. I think they built it almost, mostly, Almost perfectly round. It's not perfectly round, but it's mostly round. Like you look at it on a map, you can tell it's not natural. And it's a reservoir. And it's big enough that when you're on the sort of eastern side of it, you can't see to the shore on the western side. So it's like it goes to the horizon, the lake. Okay. And there's all these restaurants and parks and stuff on the east side of it. And when you go there, especially in the summer, the sunset sets over the water. And it's a real big thing to go watch the sunset at those restaurants and bars and parks. And so in Oklahoma City, they have, in fact, manufactured a coastal sunset, make.
- [39:21]
E
A reservation for there in June. Wendy, how about that?
- [39:24]
C
It's funny that you say that. I have indeed made my finals reservations in Oklahoma City, and I did not make it for. I did not make it for games three and four and six. I only made it for games one, two and five and seven, because I don't think the games three and four and six are going to be there, okay? Because they're going to have the best record. And I went ahead this week and actually made a restaurant reservation not at Lake Hefner, but at a different. A different restaurant that I know that I'll want to eat at. I made it because I know that the day after game one, I will want to eat there. And that'll be a Friday night, and it'll be hard to get in. So I made it. And five. Only five. I took this from Greg Popovich. My dinner's only five. If somebody wants to, I will allow sometimes a sixth person, if it's a spouse, because I never want. When spouses are with their husbands or wives during the playoffs or sometimes happens, I never want them to feel. So I'll allow under, like. Under that grace. A six. But. And if somebody, like, says, oh, I want to be, like, the sixth, seventh, eighth, I go, hey, go do your own dinner. I don't need to eat with you. See you next time. So, table for five? You know, maybe you'll make the cut, maybe you won't. I don't know.
- [40:31]
E
Random question. Wendy.
- [40:33]
C
Yeah.
- [40:33]
E
What's a greater likelihood of happening? Oklahoma City getting knocked off in the Western Conference playoffs or Oklahoma City getting beat in the NBA Finals?
- [40:44]
C
Great question. So here's the reality, you know, the reality is F. Lee Bailey. Does that mean anything to anybody?
- [40:50]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [40:50]
E
Yes.
- [40:51]
C
F. Lee Bailey, famous attorney, he had this famous quote about. About being a defense attorney. He said that as a defense attorney, you have to make sure the prosecution goes around square corners and jumps through round hoops. In other words, the way I've sort of phrased this is you've always got to run out the ground ball. If you want to use a baseball analogy. Okay. No matter what a team looks like in the regular season, I don't care if they're undefeated. I don't care if they're 82. And oh, the NBA game is fragile, okay? And you know, you don't want to talk about injuries, but the wrong player turns his ankle at the wrong time, the wrong player pulls a hamstring at the wrong time, and all of a sudden your team is very fragile. And it's Sam Presti's job and it's, it's Brian wright's job and R.C. buford's job in San Antonio is they build this team. It's, it's all these guys job to build a team that's resilient as possible, that you, that you. That you can survive something like that. But the truth is, is that you can. And so, yeah, as we sit here and we see this team just roll through people, it's like, kill them, you know, but the truth is you have to go around square corners and jump through round hoops. You. You have to go through the process. And that's why it's hard to win multiple championships, because it's hard to do that over and over and over. But I'm just going to say this about Oklahoma City defending the Midwest. You know, Oklahoma City is hosting the 2028 Olympics.
- [42:10]
D
I know that. What do we have there? We know about that.
- [42:13]
C
Vince, you know about that. Is there soft.
- [42:14]
D
What do we got?
- [42:15]
E
Soft seat.
- [42:16]
C
I'm not in Oklahoma City. Like, defender. It's not my hometown. I'm not Royce Young. You. You know that. I'm telling you, they're going to have the tallest building. They might end up having one of the best arenas. They got a, they got a. You can watch a sunset over water in Oklahoma. How many NBA cities can you watch a sunset over water from? It's, it's, it's more than one, but it's not 30. Oklahoma City has the softball in the 2028 Olympics, and they have the, the rowing, the. The. The rowing events, like the canoe events and stuff like that. Ah, so you know, like how Sam Presti, when they were like, rebuilding the. When they were rebuilding the team, like, Sam Presti started just making really good deals. And like, like every third or fourth day, you see Woj would report, the Thunder have just traded for a first. The Thunder have just traded for a first. And like, Sam was just like, nobody was really paying attention, but Sam just kept making these deals. And then like a few years later, it was like all of a sudden he built a juggernaut. Not all of a sudden, but, you know, that's kind of what, that's kind of what they're doing in Oklahoma City, you know, while no one's given, no one's watching. So like what the. Here was a reality in la. Amazing venues, right? Greater. I mean, think of the arena. I mean with all due respect to Paris, that arena is not NBA quality. Like as great as the 2024 Olympic basketball tournament was and as memorable as it was and that gold medal game, you know, night night with stuff, you know, the venues in Paris were, you know, the venue is, is the city. The venue is the Seine. The venue is the, you know, the Notre Dame and the Eiffel Tower. The venues themselves were not that great. That's not what we're going to have in la. In la, we like they're going to play the basketball into it Dome. But they could have played the basketball obviously at Crypto. They could have played the basketball at Poly Pavilion and it would have been amazing. Right? Like played the basketball at USC's arena. They got like, they're gonna, I think they're gonna try to play the baseball Dodger Stadium, for example. Okay. Like, I mean they got the venues, they're gonna do the, the volleyball is gonna be at Santa Monica Pier. Okay. Like the venues in LA are gonna be amazing. You're not gonna be able to get to any of them because of traffic, but the venues are gonna be amazing. But there was one venue they didn't have, Vince. They didn't have a rowing venue. All the stuff they had, guess where. Like rowing venue in America or one of the best, certainly world class Oklahoma. Okay, so it was going to cost LA like tens of millions of dollars. A guy from the LA organizing committee told me this story. It was going to cost LA Olympics like tens of millions of dollars to build this venue, this rowing venue. Like all these other venues they got, they got surfing, you know, Paris didn't have surfing. They had to send it to Tahiti. So Oklahoma was like, hey, you know, we got a. Excuse me. We have a world class venue here. And they're like, sounds great. And they're like, okay, here's our price. Like Sam Pressy, right? He had a price. I'll take your bad contract.
- [45:06]
E
Right?
- [45:07]
C
Here's our price. Softball. They play the College World Series softball in Oklahoma City. They have a great stadium. Softball capital of America. So think about this. They are playing. Think, Bobby, think if 15 or 20 years ago I would tell you that the NBA champions would be in Oklahoma City.
- [45:24]
D
Yeah.
- [45:25]
C
And the Olympics would be in Oklahoma City. What would you say about that?
- [45:28]
D
And you can watch sunset on a.
- [45:29]
C
Man made land and you can have the tallest building in America. So look, I live in Omaha. I'm, you know, we don't have any. I'm just, we have the College Baseball World Series, you know, that's what we have. I'm just saying like, you know, and they're building a great arena. So I'm saying more Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [45:51]
E
This episode is brought to you by McAfee.
- [45:53]
A
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B
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- [45:58]
A
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- [46:01]
B
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E
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A
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- [47:25]
C
Bobby on Monday, December 15th, I think. Well, you know the numbers of the players who are 82.
- [47:31]
D
82 is the number.
- [47:33]
C
So the players who were signed over the summer were not allowed to be traded until Monday. Now would you, would you say the players that are still not available to be traded? As people run to the trade machine, there's still a handful of players who actually have to wait till January 15th. Can you.
- [47:48]
D
Yeah, yeah. There's a group of players who signed for more than 20% of their prior salary and resigned with their own team. So that would be like Nas Reed, for example, in Minnesota. I think there's about 13 or 14 players that fit that criteria.
- [48:07]
C
Jonathan Kamingo.
- [48:08]
D
Yeah, that's, that's, that's the big one that we'll, we'll keep an eye on. But yeah, 82 players starting on Monday are eligible last year. You know, December is a relatively somewhat of a quiet month, trade wise. Certainly we start hearing more rumors but we had a trade last year on the first day of first day of players were eligible and Dennis Schroeder was traded from Brooklyn to Golden State. And I think going into Monday we'll have all eyes on Chris Paul as far as to figure out where that situation if it eventually gets resolved here. But I think that the total number is 90% of the NBA's trade eligible as of Monday.
- [48:50]
C
Yeah. Yeah. And Vince, I don't think like there's going to be trades happening next week, but it coincides with the point in the season where teams start to make some decisions about the ineptitudes or sometimes the strength, but some of the weaknesses of their rosters and that's why things start to get going.
- [49:07]
E
Then you talk to teams and you ask them how do you break up the season? And a lot of them break them up into quadrants, you know, 20 game sample sizes. And usually this is around the time where you start getting realistic about where you are and where you're not. And do you need to solidify some things or do you need to figure out what's the value of these players that I have in case we need to go the Oklahoma City route. And I'm fascinated by so many teams in the Eastern Conference. I'm fascinated by Atlanta and Miami and Chicago. Who's lost a bunch of games in a row. I think lost like seven or eight, seven in a row, I think or something like that if they're having a hot start. And of course, you know, the Detroit and Milwaukee, like where do these teams stand? What is your appetite going to be? Cause the first team to make a move is going to set off a domino effect. For everything else that's going to happen in trade season, it's a matter of who's going. It's like, like being at an old. Being at a club. I ain't been at a club in a long time, Wendy, but I can imagine being at the club.
- [50:11]
C
I can't speak to the club scene in Oklahoma City. You're going to have to. I rely on that for you that you know, McMahon, you know he likes during the finals. That wasn't actually McMahon likes this outdoor bar. But I don't think that's the club scene. No offense.
- [50:26]
E
No, it's not the club. That's not, that's not the club scene. There was a. There was one place I felt like where all the black people congregated in Oklahoma City during the Finals.
- [50:35]
C
Well, I can tell you this sort of fits McMahon. A number of the Oklahoma City players dads like hanging out at that bar and that's kind of McMahon's speed. He's with the players dads because he's.
- [50:49]
E
Like 55 years old.
- [50:50]
C
Well, he ain't 55, but, you know, that's his crowd. I'm just gonna.
- [50:55]
E
All I'm gonna say scholarship bar is what we call it.
- [51:00]
C
That's our man. Big Rich.
- [51:02]
E
So, yeah, I'm fascinated by who's gonna make the first move, whether it's to be realistic and say, you know what? This thing in Chicago ain't working. Let's see what happens with Kobe Wyatt or Vucevich or whomever. Or if you're in Detroit or New York or Atlanta and saying, okay, is it time to get out of the Trae Young business if you're Atlanta, or is it time to make a move to try to elevate ourselves? That's the thing that I'm more fascinated by even than the things in the Western Conference. Cause I feel like everybody realizes almost everybody. Denver doesn't think they're playing for second. Houston doesn't think they're playing for second. Everybody else kind of realizes they're playing for second. So I'm fascinated to see who's going to have that first realistic conversation with themselves in the west and who's going to have the stomach to go for it in the East.
- [51:51]
C
Bobby, of the guys who are you mentioned, Chris Paul of the guys who are available who are now, you know, tradable on Monday. Who else is Mumby on your short list to watch?
- [52:00]
D
I think Ty Jones in Orlando.
- [52:02]
C
Yeah, he's out of rotation kind of.
- [52:04]
D
You know, and I think a lot of it has to do with the emergence of Anthony Black, who's been really good.
- [52:09]
C
That's true.
- [52:10]
D
You know, I think the, the Franz Wagner injury maybe changes a little bit here, but I think you're, you're, you're an Orlando team that Jones is on an expiring one you sent to a one year, $7 million deal. I think you're five and change over to luxury tax. Getting off his number gets you under. If that's the direction, um, certainly with for them. If they want to go about and do that. You know, the Chicago guys are going to be really interesting. Seven of their 15 players are free agents this summer. They're a team that potentially could have a lot of Money. But I don't know what money gets you in free agency anymore. As far as the direction.
- [52:46]
C
Well, Austin Reaves will be an unrestricted free agent this summer.
- [52:49]
D
Yeah.
- [52:50]
C
And so like, you know, I don't think Austin wants to leave la and as long as they pay him, I don't think he will. But like, if you're looking for like, you know, we're going to make a run at Austin Reeves, like that's. I'm just stating that.
- [53:01]
D
Yeah. Yeah. So. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Tyus is going to be the, the one thing, I think the one thing that will, you know, we'll be watching too is like, how do teams, you know, it's funny, I've become fascinated more with guys on two way. Two way players here. The, you know, how to, how do teams like Dallas go about creating a roster, spot or room. They even sign a guy like Ryan Nemhardt, you know, for, for an example here. There's minor moves. Even. Even.
- [53:29]
C
Right. That, that would be a. So Ryan Nemhardt's playing really, really well for them, you know, in the wake of their injuries at point guard. You know, he's outplayed Danzo Russell, to be honest with you, and so he's gotten those minutes and he's a two way guy. But you run out of games at 50.
- [53:42]
E
Yeah.
- [53:43]
C
And they, you know, not only do you want to sign the guy, ideally if you really like the player and you have something, you know, like A.J. mitchell as an example.
- [53:49]
E
Yeah.
- [53:49]
C
Who's a two way guy. You want to send him to a multi year deal and give them a little bit of money so that they'll take a multi year deal.
- [53:55]
D
Yeah.
- [53:56]
C
So, yeah, those are like that, you know. So a team might make a trade to do something like that and it may not light up the, you know, the, the bottom line, but it may be something that's important for that team in the league.
- [54:07]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I mean team wise, I think Minnesota is pretty interesting. You know, there's one of those Western Conference teams, you know, they used most of what they had trade wise when they, when they, you know, got into the first round to draft Rob Dillingham, who's out of the rotation and they're.
- [54:26]
C
Still paying off the, the Gobert trade.
- [54:28]
D
Yeah. And they're. And they're paying off what they traded that to get Dillingham with San Antonio.
- [54:34]
C
That's right.
- [54:35]
D
So, you know, how do you, you know, I know Anthony Edwards has played a lot of point guard, but if you're looking for another point guard. And then it's the, you know, it's the trio of guards with Lamello, who's heard, and Jaw, who Memphis has played pretty well without, and Trey in. In Atlanta here. So we'll. You know, as I said it, just because we get to the 15 doesn't mean all of a sudden we're going to see trades. But it does give teams the flexibility to go out and do things. I think people always remind people, you know, when we get to February 5th, everyone thinks it's even. The All Star break is the halfway point. I'm like, no, we have like 20 games left in the regular season. So it does become a little more challenging if you're going to go out and do something big to try to integrate, you know, that player or players to your roster.
- [55:22]
C
All right, well, we'll be talking about that a lot in the next months. Thank you for getting up early for us, Bobby.
- [55:26]
D
You got it.
- [55:27]
C
Thank you for focusing on basketball, Vince. I know it's a tough time in southeast Michigan.
- [55:32]
E
Not really. Not really.
- [55:36]
C
Thank you to Jackson for putting it all together. Thank you for watching and listening to the HOOPP Collective. We'll be back with the Tims early next week and we'll have some stories. I think even more. I'm normally a blowhard, but I might even have more for that day, so stick around. The NBA is happening Christmas Day. Five games, one unforgettable lineup.
- [56:09]
E
That's what Christmas is all about.
- [56:11]
C
Buckets for breakfast, breakaways for dessert. It's the holiday tradition with star power from across the globe.
- [56:18]
E
The stars, they are going to be out.
- [56:20]
C
The best gift. You don't even have to unwrap it.
- [56:23]
E
We want to say Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
- [56:26]
C
NBA Christmas Day begins at noon Eastern on ABC and espn.