Lakers' Resurgence For Real? Can Bulls Avoid Disaster? Houston A Contender?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Lakers' Resurgence For Real? Can Bulls Avoid Disaster? Houston a Contender?

Podcast Information:

• Title: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
• Host/Author: ESPN, NBA, Brian Windhorst
• Description: Brian Windhorst and a team of ESPN's Insiders sort out life in and around the NBA world.
• Episode: Lakers' Resurgence For Real? Can Bulls Avoid Disaster? Houston a Contender?
• Release Date: January 27, 2025

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1. Lakers' Defensive Improvements and Anthony Davis’s Demands

Brian Windhorst initiates the discussion by highlighting the Los Angeles Lakers' recent successes, noting they've won five of their last six games, including a significant victory over the Warriors. The Lakers are embarking on a six-game road trip, which Windhorst believes is manageable compared to the league's toughest road stretches.

Key Points:

• Defensive Boost: The Lakers have shown notable defensive improvements, holding the Wizards to 88 points and the Celtics to 96 points in recent games. Windhorst remarks, “We've been on them for their defensive issues out the season. So you got to give them credit there” ([02:38]).

• Anthony Davis’s Request: Anthony Davis has publicly requested the Lakers acquire a center to allow him to play power forward. Windhorst expresses skepticism about this demand, stating, “Anthony Davis is not a GM... it would be an impossibly stupid thing for the Lakers to do” ([06:15]).

• LeBron's Impact: The Lakers exhibit a negative net rating when LeBron James is on the court, averaging -4.7 points per 100 possessions compared to +3.9 when he's off. Windhorst emphasizes, “Their offense in particular is pretty rough” ([06:53]).

Notable Quotes:

• Windhorst: “When he’s on the court, they’re minus 4.7” ([06:44]).
• Windhorst: “I just don’t see what the moves are that this team could realistically make to be good enough to play with those teams” ([08:47]).

2. Chicago Bulls: Rebuilding and Trade Speculations

The conversation shifts to the Chicago Bulls, discussing their recent struggles and potential trade scenarios.

Key Points:

• Recent Performance: The Bulls have lost seven of their last eight games, partly due to experimenting with their draft pick. This suggests a possible shift towards rebuilding. McMenamin notes, “They need to be rebuilding” ([45:50]).

• Trade Rumors with Suns: There are ongoing talks between the Bulls and Suns concerning potential trades involving Jimmy Butler and Bradley Beal. However, significant obstacles exist due to Beal’s no-trade clause and the complexity of the contracts involved. Windhorst warns, “If they take on Bradley Beal in this contract that they can’t move... it would just be the height of insanity” ([46:38]).

• Zach LaVine’s Contract: LaVine’s substantial contract poses additional challenges for the Bulls in any potential trade deals. Windhorst argues, “Bradley Beal has a no trade clause... it would be the height of insanity to do that” ([47:41]).

Notable Quotes:

• Windhorst: “They cannot do this trade. They cannot take on Bradley Beal in this contract that they can’t move to get rid of Zach LaVine” ([48:23]).
• Tim Bontemps: “The concept of Bradley Beal ending up in Chicago has been discussed” ([45:57]).

3. Houston Rockets: Amen Thompson’s Emergence and Team Potential

Amen Thompson has been a standout for the Houston Rockets, showing impressive statistics and contributing significantly to the team's performance.

Key Points:

• Thompson’s Performance: Averaging 17 points, 11.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists, and 2.3 steals per game over nine games, Thompson is proving to be a key player. Windhorst highlights, “If he ever becomes a 35-point shooter... he’s going to be one of the 10 best players in the league” ([27:22]).

• Team Dynamics: The Rockets boast a young and talented roster, including players like Jalen Green and Cam Whitmore. McMenamin opines, “I think the Rockets are on their way to being contenders. I don't think it’s going to be this year” ([39:15]).

• Future Prospects: With strong performances and a promising roster, the Rockets are positioned as potential future contenders, albeit not immediate title favorites.

Notable Quotes:

• Windhorst: “Amen Thompson has been starting now for the past nine games... that is pretty damn good” ([26:32]).
• McMenamin: “I don't think the Rockets are going to be contenders this year” ([39:15]).

4. Cleveland Cavaliers: Defensive Struggles Amidst Injuries

The Cleveland Cavaliers are facing significant challenges, primarily due to defensive lapses and key player injuries.

Key Points:

• Defensive Issues: The Cavaliers have been allowing over 133 points in their last six games, highlighting severe defensive shortcomings. Windhorst states, “The Cavaliers are allowing over 133 points in the last six games” ([25:31]).

• Injuries Impact: Key players like Evan Mobley are missing games, weakening the team's defensive structure. Tim Bontemps mentions, “Evan Mobley missed a handful of games with a calf injury” ([20:27]).

• Performance Decline: Despite a strong start to the season, the Cavaliers have struggled recently, losing four out of six games. Windhorst remarks, “They have a worse net rating than the Phoenix Suns” ([06:44]).

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Bontemps: “They scored 129 points in Philly the other night and lost and scored 131 at home on Saturday night to the Rockets and lost” ([20:27]).
• Windhorst: “When he is on the court... they're plus 0.5” ([09:04]).

5. Other Western Conference Contenders: Nuggets, Grizzlies, and Pacers

The discussion briefly covers other Western Conference teams, emphasizing their standings and key players.

Key Points:

• Denver Nuggets: Continuing their strong performance, spearheaded by Jamal Murray and Nikola Jokić. Windhorst believes, “I'm locking in Houston into a top four seed in the west” ([32:35]).

• Memphis Grizzlies and Oklahoma City Thunder: Both teams are highlighted as formidable opponents, with the Grizzlies maintaining momentum and the Thunder being strong contenders. McMenamin notes, “They kept rolling along all year” ([33:35]).

• Indiana Pacers: Tyrese Haliburton’s resurgence has propelled the Pacers, making them a tough opponent in potential playoff matchups. Windhorst praises, “Tyrese Halliburton has had a Jamal Murray kind of season” ([60:07]).

Notable Quotes:

• Windhorst: “If I'm the Nuggets, the entire goal for the next two months is to get to at least three” ([40:09]).
• McMenamin: “Kenny Atkinson has been talking about that, their inability to keep teams out of the paint” ([12:21]).

6. Trade Deadlines and Future Moves

The hosts discuss the potential moves teams might make as the trade deadline approaches, especially regarding high-value players and contract considerations.

Key Points:

• Jimmy Butler Trade: The complexity of trading Jimmy Butler involves multiple teams and intricate contract negotiations. Windhorst highlights, “The Phoenix Suns have the worst contract in the league” ([55:42]).

• Houston Rockets’ Strategy: Despite being a strong team, the Rockets are cautious with their trades due to budget constraints and long-term planning. McMenamin states, “The Rockets have a lot of young talent” ([61:39]).

• Indiana Pacers’ Moves: With Miles Turner potentially free, the Pacers might shuffle their roster to manage salary cap issues. Tim Bontemps mentions, “They are up against the luxury tax” ([62:12]).

Notable Quotes:

• Windhorst: “They just can’t do anything about it” ([56:34]).
• McMenamin: “Jim is trying to make it as hard as possible for them to walk away” ([55:40]).

7. Final Thoughts and Upcoming Matches

The podcast wraps up with final insights into upcoming NBA matchups and the ongoing strategies of various teams.

Key Points:

• Upcoming Games: Highlighting key games such as the Denver Nuggets vs. Chicago Bulls, and the Lakers vs. Knicks.
• Player Performances: Emphasis on standout performances like Victor Wembanyama’s fatigue and Miles Turner’s critical dunks.
• Overall NBA Landscape: The hosts provide a comprehensive view of the competitive landscape as the season progresses towards the playoffs.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Bontemps: “What do you want me to say?” ([46:25]).
• Windhorst: “They have a bright future in the NBA” ([31:51]).

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Brian Windhorst (06:15): “Anthony Davis is not a GM. He probably shouldn't be a GM because he's been a center for about five years…”
• Brian Windhorst (06:44): “When he’s on the court, they’re minus 4.7.”
• Brian Windhorst (25:31): “The Cavaliers are allowing over 133 points in the last six games.”
• Tim Bontemps (45:57): “The concept of Bradley Beal ending up in Chicago has been discussed.”
• Dave McMenamin (39:15): “I don’t think the Rockets are going to be contenders this year.”
• Brian Windhorst (56:34): “They just can’t do anything about it.”
• Windhorst (48:23): “If they take on Bradley Beal in this contract that they can’t move... it would just be the height of insanity.”

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Conclusion

This episode of Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective provides an in-depth analysis of the current NBA landscape, focusing on the Lakers' defensive improvements and internal dynamics, the Chicago Bulls' potential rebuilding phase and complex trade scenarios, and the Houston Rockets' promising young talent spearheaded by Amen Thompson. Additionally, the podcast delves into the Cleveland Cavaliers' defensive struggles amidst key injuries and offers insights into other Western Conference contenders like the Nuggets, Grizzlies, and Pacers. The discussion on trade deadlines highlights the intricate negotiations surrounding high-value players like Jimmy Butler and the challenges teams face with hefty contracts. Overall, the episode delivers a comprehensive overview of the NBA's mid-season developments, setting the stage for an exciting playoff race.

Transcript

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening. If you're watching on YouTube, I'm wearing a hat. I never wear a hat, but I just had 16 hours of travel just back from France, so it's like the middle of the night to me. On the body clockwise. So please have understanding as I may babble more than usual. My hair is in no shape. Joining us from New York City, where I was for five hours today, but he had no interest in coming and seeing me at the airport is Tim Bontemps.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think everyone's going to be okay with the hat. Hello everybody.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sorry about the Bills, buddy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's to sum up the Bills. Josh Allen made what would have been one of the greatest plays of all time. The receiver dropped it and CBS didn't notice it for 10 minutes. So that was how the game went today.

[Tim Bontemps]

Joining us from Dallas, Texas. The Cowboys haven't been to the super bowl in decades. It's bad. McMahon.

[Dave McMenamin]

Howdy partners. We've got one good, strong solid in the first minute. Windy sleep update. I'm not going to tell you what the over under is that Jackson and I said before you guys got on here, but we're well on our way.

[Tim Bontemps]

McMahon, you live in the central time zone.

[Brian Windhorst]

I do.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just want you to understand that when I got up today to begin the travel, it was yesterday for you.

[Dave McMenamin]

That's two Jackson.

[Tim Bontemps]

I got up at 11:30pm no one.

[Brian Windhorst]

Absolutely no one else cares.

[Tim Bontemps]

But yeah, like, I mean you, you act like it's out of, it's out of line.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, like you said it was out of line. It was just, it was perfectly on brand.

[Dave McMenamin]

We all enjoy a good strong windy sleep update. Honestly, if anything, I feel like they've been lacking lately. So I'm glad that you got a little Internet, a little live flat first class seating on the way home and you know, here we go. And, and by the way, Jax and I both took the over, so I appreciate you out of the way. But we still haven't hit it. We still haven't hit it.

[Brian Windhorst]

We'll get there. Don't worry, folks.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, well, I come back to the U.S. i haven't, you know, I was. There was no chance of me seeing anything that happened on the west coast last few days. But I am aware of the Lakers winning five of their last six games, including beating the warriors on Saturday night. They're at the start of a six game road trip, but it's not the nastiest six game road trip the, the league has ever seen. They get the warriors, no Draymond, no Kuminga. Might have missed a couple other guys in that game. Steph goes scoreless in the second half. I will say the Lakers have put a few good defensive performances together in a row. They held the Wizards to 88 points. Now, I don't know if that comes with an asterisk, but nonetheless, we've been on them for their defensive issues out the season. So you got to give them credit there. They hold the Celtics to 96 points in getting a win there. It was the Celtics fifth game in seven nights. Couple of them had been overtime. I watched parts. Oh yeah, it was back to back. I felt that they were completely gassed in that game. But the Lakers played good defense. I don't want to take anything away from them, but.

[Dave McMenamin]

And, and the Celtics, you know, they came to Dallas from there and you know, got the wounded Maz pretty good. And the Celtics readily admitted like they've had a tough time maintaining the sort of intensity that they had last year. As Kristaps Porzing has put it so eloquently. Last year they were Lions and they've been house cats in some games. This year they were house cats at old crypto.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, yeah. And they've looked forward and played board. You know, I will say this like. So first off, JJ Redick has gone with Max Christie and he's given them a boost defensively in their starting lineup. He look, I didn't see the game against at all against the Lakers or against the Warriors. I do know that Steph Curry scored zero points in the second half and I do know that Max Christie was a primary defender. I'm sure it was a team effort, but I think Max Christie does get some credit for helping that also, I think it was Dorian Finney Smith's first start and again the warriors put up 108. That's pretty good. And also and Steph scoreless in the second half. So the Lakers getting some Some better defensive games. And then here are the rest of the games on their road trip at Charlotte. I'm not sure what Lamelo status is, but he's been missing some games. And, you know, the Hornets are not good at Philly, who have won a couple here, beat Cleveland the other night, which we'll talk about. You were there bon temps at the aforementioned Wizards. Those are their next three games. And then at the Knicks, and then they come home and play the Clippers at into a dome. But, you know, certainly not a gauntlet there. And so I think there's two interesting things going on right now. Bond temps with the Lakers. One, they've got some positive momentum going. And two, Anthony Davis comes out, puts Rob Pelinka on blast and basically tells Shams, get me a center publicly on the record, on camera. And by the way, has backed that up with a couple of great games. It wasn't like he did that and then laid a couple of eggs. He's said those statements and then, you know, continue to play very well. So this is a key moment for the Lakers both whether they can, you know, take advantage of this road trip and, you know, get some. Some victories. And also whether or not the front office heeds Anthony Davis's basically public directive to get him a center so he can play power forward.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anthony Davis is not a gm. He probably shouldn't be a GM because he's been a center for about five years and trading for a center would be an impossibly stupid thing for the Lakers to do. So he should continue to play center, and when he plays center, the Lakers are pretty good. Now, it's been a weird year for the Lakers. I got an interesting stat for you fellas. You guys want to guess what the net rating is when LeBron James is on the court for the Lakers is this season?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, the way you present it sounds like it might not be great.

[Dave McMenamin]

It was. I know it was bad a while ago.

[Brian Windhorst]

It is negative 4.7 points per 100 possessions.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Lakers got to be more to that.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Lakers are 8 1/2 points per 100 possessions. Better when LeBron James is off the court than when he's on, they're plus 3.9. When he's on the court, they're minus 4.7. When they're plus 3.9. When he's off the court, they're minus 4.7. When he's on. Their offense in particular is pretty rough.

[Dave McMenamin]

When did take his little break? Do you guys remember?

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, I could look up the exact Because, I mean, it was. It was during the. I believe it was during the in season tournament break. Because he only missed one game.

[Dave McMenamin]

Okay. Because I'm gonna go on. I'm gonna look numbers up from. I'm gonna go back to mid December because I do think.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, my point in general is just that if you look at the Lakers Overall, their expected one loss record is 20 and 23. They are five games over that. They've had a negative point differential all season, and yet they've pulled off a bunch of wins. You know, their losses have tended to be pretty rough. They've had some blowout losses and they've won some close games. So they're sitting here several games over.500 at the halfway mark of the season. And, you know, like, they don't have a lot of assets. It's hard to sit here and make, to me, a very compelling case that they are. They're on the level of Oklahoma City. So, you know, do they sacrifice a couple of these picks and go try to get a guy or two who could potentially help them when there's not that much available on the market? And frankly, I think this team has been playing over its head. It's a hard sell for me, despite the fact that you've got LeBron and AD playing like this because I. I just. I just don't see what the moves are that this team could realistically make to be good enough to play with those teams. They still don't really have any perimeter athleticism. They still don't have any real shot creation outside of Austin Reaves, LeBron and AD and as you mentioned before, McMahon, now that Austin Reaves is the primary ball handler for this team, the opposing teams have gone at him pretty aggressively at the other end, and he's really struggled. So it's a tough. It's a tough puzzle to try to figure out what they should do.

[Tim Bontemps]

You'd really probably need to have like, JJ Redick on here to try to properly explain why he thinks that they're a negative with LeBron on the court.

[Dave McMenamin]

Well, and let me just.

[Tim Bontemps]

Anecdotally, I would suspect that's because Ron has been so poor on defense. This.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. The answer is when he's. When he is on the court. Their defense is 115.3 points per 100 possessions, which in the league, I believe would rank in the bottom half might be lower than that. Yeah. 115.3 is the exact rating of the Chicago Bulls.

[Dave McMenamin]

Fourth, let me add context that that stat is an early season stat at One point, it was significantly worse. Since he took his little break and came back, he has played in 17 games and they're basically even, plus 0.5. And the defensive ratings, 111.2. So that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Even then, Tim, but even then, if you're saying that right, like he's come back and played better, they're still an even team with LeBron on the court.

[Dave McMenamin]

I'm not, I'm not making a case that the Lakers are one piece away, because I don't believe they are.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, that's all. That's all I was.

[Dave McMenamin]

I don't think they're remotely close to contenders. I'm just. I'm just being very cautious about presenting a LeBron is washed case.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I, No, I don't. I don't think he's washed either, to be clear. It's just, it. It's the second time in his career his team is negative with him on the court at all. The only other time that happened was his rookie year. You know, like, they're. They're over. They're, I think, -109 this season.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm gonna invalidate that rookie stat. He played like 42 minutes a game and he was on a crap team.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that, like, again, my point is. My point is we're talking about something that hasn't happened in literally a generation.

[Dave McMenamin]

But let's just like the whole AD needs a center thing. Look, we, you know, and, and, you know, you can say, hey, he had bigs next to him when they won the championship in the bubble, so on and so forth. Like, what big do you think they're getting that's going to elevate them to anything close to contender status? You think Jonas Valanchunas does that? Like, who. I mean, you think Vuchovic does that if they're able to put something like that together? No, no.

[Tim Bontemps]

The thing about it is, like, you know, Valanchunas has been a guy that's been rumored since summer because there were the reports that that's what LeBron. LeBron, you know, he. He made it clear he would take less money and one of the guys, he would take less money for. Well, I don't remember even the list Valentinus would be.

[Dave McMenamin]

It was like DeRozan Valentine's, you know. Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

It would be a completely deranged thing for the Lakers to trade for Jonas Valens shootness.

[Tim Bontemps]

Can't switch like teams would. If you had. If you had.

[Brian Windhorst]

He can't do anything on defense.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. If you had Austin Reeves and Valen Shunas sure on the court teams would have two guys they could attack.

[Dave McMenamin]

I mean, yes, is the same. Vucovic is a better.

[Brian Windhorst]

I can't guard anybody either. All of these players are not. These guys are not good enough. The Lakers that we. The Lakers have had the same problem for years now, really, since they got rid of continues Caldwell Pope in the Russell Westbrook trade. They have no perimeter athleticism to guard anybody.

[Tim Bontemps]

Kyle Kuzman was a useful player to to them. It was not just kcp. You know, I know Kuzma has sort of gone off the reservation last couple years.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, that's fine. The point is they haven't had any actual 3&D players for years. That has been the problem with their team. During the halcyon summer of 2023, when they signed Gabe Vincent, that was supposed to be the guy that was going to be this great piece for them. He has basically been hurt ever since, has not recaptured the form he had with the Heat. And you just look at their team and they just cannot stop teams on the perimeter. And when they get in the playoffs and they have to go up against Jacob's Alexander or they have to go up against, if he's back to where he at least has been in recent weeks, Jamal Murray, or they have to go up against Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic or Anthony Edwards or any of these teams, who are they guarding any of these teams with if they're going to do anything in the next two weeks? If they look at this and say we have a chance now, I'm skeptical of that, but their record at least gives them the argument that they could. They have to try to get guys who can actually guard on the perimeter. Because by the way, Dorian Finney Smith, as we've talked about, is a guy that's more comfortable guarding bigger players now, too. He's not a guy you're putting on small guards on the perimeter. That's been the problem they've had for years. And if they're going to do anything, they've got to try to address that. And those players are not easy to get.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, AD told Shams they're, you know, quote, one to two pieces away. And that's made me smile because it was like, well, it depends on which one to two pieces.

[Dave McMenamin]

Sure.

[Tim Bontemps]

Are you getting a all NBA player? I would agree.

[Dave McMenamin]

Yeah. Any team in a top 10 spot could say the same thing. Hey, we're two superstars away. You know, snap your fingers and make it out.

[Brian Windhorst]

Sign me up.

[Tim Bontemps]

I did see that clip from Ad on, on Saturday night where Curry had made like 30 something free throws in a row. He's had like dozens of these streaks. But Steph missed a free throw. AD was like stunned and he like screamed not safe for work. Language that every, the whole, all of America heard. But you know, like the more interesting thing to me than your analysis of this, which is fine. I mean, here's the thing. These last couple of games have improved it. But Dorian Finney Smith has been there for like 15 games and their defense really had not improved. They had, you know, the last couple games it's been better. If you look at this streak, there's.

[Brian Windhorst]

A reason he got traded for a couple second round picks.

[Dave McMenamin]

Oh, defense ratings 107.5 with him on the floor.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'll say that that's why he's starting.

[Brian Windhorst]

But he doesn't fix their problem.

[Tim Bontemps]

Their overall defense has not. These last couple games it's been better. So if you take, if you take that small sample size these last three games, it looks pretty good. But overall their defense hasn't materially been different since they went out and got the three and D guy, you know, so, you know, that is what it is. But you know, we're in a spot here with the Lakers if they continue to play well and you know, it's hard to just believe in them because they seem to like they take two steps forward and one step back all the time. But if they have a good road trip, then they come home and the schedule flips for them. You know, basically they're on the Grammy trip right now. And so then the schedule flips for them and they get a bunch of home games. So. Or they've been good this year. So like this is a key time. And I mean, AD senses that. And he obviously, he and LeBron obviously calculated and LeBron made comments and AD made comments and they're putting pressure on the front office and JJ ready the Lakers were.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, it's January, so LeBron is going to clamor for the team to make additions, which he's done the last 20 years in a row. And I mean, look, The Lakers are 22nd in defense, they're 13th in offense, and they have a worse net rating than the Phoenix Suns. So if you're being calculating and looking at the, the situation they're in, this is still a team that is out a lot of assets going forward. And it's just hard for me to look at it and say there's anything on the market that's going to materially change their position because Again, they probably have to get like he says, they're one or two pieces away. They're probably two good to elite perimeter defenders away from being the team that LeBron and AD would like them to be. And I just don't think those players are available, let alone available for what they have to offer in a trade. Those are the most, arguably the most valuable players on the market this time of year, and I'm not sure one of them's going to change teams.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, so we'll see how the Lakers go. Are you seeing them when they're out east at all?

[Brian Windhorst]

Bun Temps I will be in Philadelphia with our guy Mactan on Tuesday for the Sixer game and I will be.

[Tim Bontemps]

In Dave McMenamin is coming to Philly. He's a big Eagles fan. He's from Philly. He's in a good mood today, brother.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm sure he'll be sad in a couple of weeks when Mahomes does it again. And then, and then I'll be in. I'll be with the Lakers at the Garden on Saturday night when they play the Knicks on array.

[Dave McMenamin]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Tim Bontemps]

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[Dave McMenamin]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Dave McMenamin]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Dave McMenamin]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Dave McMenamin]

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[Dave McMenamin]

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[Tim Bontemps]

PG13 this film may be inappropriate for children under 13. All right, well you were just in Philly a couple of days ago at the start of the weekend to see the Cavs.

[Brian Windhorst]

So we all in a bit of a reeling position. McMahon.

[Tim Bontemps]

They are. They are no longer have the best record in the league.

[Brian Windhorst]

Brian left the country and they just completely capitulated. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Dave McMenamin]

What's that mean?

[Brian Windhorst]

Just. Just making. They think they just got sad their fearless leader left.

[Tim Bontemps]

We obviously talked a lot about how well the Cavs played and how well they looked when they beat the Thunder in that home game. In the nine games since they beat the Thunder at home first off, The Cavs are 4 and 5 and defensively they have been getting drilled. Now they've had some injuries. Evan Mobley missed a handful of games, three, four games with a calf injury. And then some of their perimeter guys who help with their perimeter defense, Isaac Okoro and Karis Lavert have been out and that's what Kenny Atkinson pointed to when discussing what is now a three game losing streak after they lost to the Rockets twice in four days and the 76ers the last two games they've give. They. They scored 129 points in Philly the other night and lost and scored 131 at home on Saturday night to the Rockets and lost. That is not how they got to 33 and 4. Whatever they were at their high mark. They stay. We put up 130 point games but they've been just getting torched on the defensive end. Given up over 133 times in the last six games. One of those was in Oklahoma City where Shea just. And the rest of them just torched them. They haven't been the same team since then. They've lost four out of six since then. And bontemps like, like that game that you saw. Ty Jerome had one of the best shooting games of the year in the NBA. He went 8 of 8 on 3. Steph Curry, like you can't lose a game where Ty Jerome goes eight of eight on threes. And then on Saturday and we're going to talk about the Rockets in a minute because the Rockets picking up those two wins is a real feather in their cap. But our game, our man friend of the podcast, George Niang goes seven of nine on threes.

[Dave McMenamin]

Six or seven on three. Seven and nine overall.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh seven, nine overall. Six to seven on threes.

[Dave McMenamin]

I do have a George King update.

[Tim Bontemps]

You have two games where Ty Jerome and George Niang.

[Brian Windhorst]

Forget this. I want to hear the. We've given enough. How great the Cavs are on offense stats. I want the minivan update. What's the update on our man, the minivan?

[Dave McMenamin]

No longer the minivan.

[Brian Windhorst]

Really?

[Dave McMenamin]

No longer the minivan. He's been upgraded and this is a Darius Garland thing. He's the G wagon. Okay. He's. Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

You told that story of the pod before. I mean I'm, I'm famous.

[Brian Windhorst]

I haven't.

[Dave McMenamin]

I don't think, I don't think. I think I told you the story. I don't think I told on the pod.

[Brian Windhorst]

I haven't heard it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh really?

[Brian Windhorst]

I just saw our man, the minivan the other day.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hey, he's a G Wagon.

[Dave McMenamin]

He's a little sleeker now. Certainly more expensive. He's been upgraded. He's now the G Wagon. The minivan is a thing of the past.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was the minivan when he was making like a fraction of what he's making now. So I.

[Dave McMenamin]

Exactly. He's. He's Mercedes class now.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, well look, when Ty Jerome and George Nianga 1415 on threes over a two game span. You need to win those games and they didn't bond attempts and you saw it firsthand. And Kenny Atkinson has been talking about that, their la, their inability to keep teams out of the paint.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And I mean look they again like you said, Evan Moby missed a bunch of those games. They've had some other injuries. It's understandable. They've had it.

[Tim Bontemps]

They played five and eight days, five games.

[Brian Windhorst]

They were never, they weren't a, they were not a 73 win team like they were at which, which was, which is fine. However I do think, you know, look, the, the Sixers had an incredible shooting night themselves on Friday and like that, some of that is going to break the other way. They shot way above what their expected number would be in part I think reversing a bit of their season long trend of being way under what their expended numbers would be. But also like look, the thing we've talked about with the Cavs all year. If you are going to poke holes in the Cavs in their chances of being a championship team at the end of the day, we'll go right back to the conversation we had about the Lakers. When they're playing elite offensive teams, who is guarding these players? Right? They're, they're. Yes, they've got Evan Mobley, yes, they've got Jared Allen. But their perimeter defense and their collection of perimeter players, those guys are basically all offense first players. And whether it's Darius Garland. No, Donovan Mitchell obviously came in the league as a.

[Tim Bontemps]

Who was guarding Justin Edwards the other night? Who. I think that was a career high for him.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, well, I mean, look, they. The Sixers hit a lot of threes, but just in general. Ty Jerome, not a defender. Darius Garland, not a defender. Our guy, the, the G wagon, God bless him, he's not stopping people on the perimeter. Caris is an average at best defender.

[Tim Bontemps]

Caris Lavert, he's gotten a little better.

[Brian Windhorst]

But he's not a guy who's stopping.

[Tim Bontemps]

Caris Lavert has good. He's got long arms and good length and that he. They've missed him.

[Brian Windhorst]

Caris LeVert is fine. If, if you're, if you're, if you're. If your answer to stopping Shakeless Alexander is. Carrie, you don't have an answer.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that's the problem. I don't think there's an answer to shop.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes. But you know what I'm saying now.

[Dave McMenamin]

They need Allen Mobley to cover up a lot of. Of flaws. You know, they, they need those guys to be absolutely dominant as a tandem and to make up for a lot of shortcomings, you know, size wise and otherwise on the perimeter. So. You know, it's funny though because if you just going into the season honestly, our questions about the Cavs weren't. Were they good enough defensively to contend the fit questions were about the offense for, you know, first and foremost. And they've still been awesome offensively. I mean, they're still the best offense in the NBA by a fairly comfortable margin. You know, the, the like, dude, when you get off to a 33 and 4 start.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, you're gonna have some aggression.

[Dave McMenamin]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Like there's a bunch of teams right now that are facing sort of.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's the dog. It's the dog days of the season. None of this is a big deal. I, I don't think the Rock, I don't think the Cavs losing these games while they're banged up is a big deal, but it is, it does go to, you know, if they're matching up against Boston or these other teams, New York, you know, Oklahoma City in a playoff series that, you know, like, you're right, McMahon. The offensive fit was a question, but it also was. They don't have anybody to match up realistically with these elite offensive players on the other team. And you know, it's just something to keep an eye on as we go.

[Dave McMenamin]

Okoro is capable of that. But how much you giving up on the offensive in. And like the shoulder thing. Oh, the jumpers been Rough. Been very rough lately.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, well, let's give the Rockets their due here. First off, I want to mention the two games that Amen Thompson had against the Cavs.

[Brian Windhorst]

I just. I want to. I want to set you up with this, so. Because I was just pulling up the stats for it. So Jabari Smith leaves the lineup with a shoulder injury a few weeks ago, and Amend Thompson has been starting now for the past nine games.

[Tim Bontemps]

He missed one of those games, but. Yeah, right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, okay, so you're right. He's played nine games. He started, started the ones he's played. Here. Here are his numbers over those nine games. In 39 minutes a game, he's scoring 17 points a game on 55% shooting. He's averaging eight rebounds. Actually, let me take that back. It's eight defensive rebounds, 11.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists, and 2.3 steals and 1.2 blocks per per game. And 39 minutes a game. That is pretty damn good.

[Dave McMenamin]

And. And 14 starts this year. The numbers are very similar. Then they're 11 and 3 in games that he starts. I don't know that you can take Thompson out of the starting lineup. I mean, certainly, I've told you guys many times, and it's not like this is some secret. The Rockets have considered him for quite some time as a huge piece of their foundation. I think it's time just to leave that guy and start in the lineup. Yeah, for now and a long, long time to come.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's only one. There's only one question with a Ben Thompson. If he's shooting 16.7% from three over that stretch, and for the season, he's shooting 24 from three and 69 from the line, which is an improvement. If he ever becomes a 353 point shooter, let alone higher than that, he's going to be one of the 10 best players in the league because he is an unbelievable physical specimen.

[Dave McMenamin]

And if he doesn't, you know, it'll be. He'll be the player Ben Simmons was supposed to be.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, he's not as big as Ben Simmons, but he.

[Dave McMenamin]

He's a hell of a lot tougher. And he's more after.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's good for a while.

[Tim Bontemps]

He is arguably the best wing rebounder in the league. If he's not. If he's not the best, he's right there.

[Dave McMenamin]

And. And he's right there. And by the way, wing, he can be a four. He can be.

[Tim Bontemps]

You're right. No, you're right.

[Dave McMenamin]

One through five.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he is a four. That's the thing, like with the shooting issues, that's where he's playing right now and it's probably where he's got to be for now.

[Dave McMenamin]

But he's a four who can grab a rebound and go and get you in all those kind of things.

[Tim Bontemps]

In the game that they played in Houston against, against the Cavs and they caught the Cavs on the second night of a back to back where they were sitting in Cleveland waiting for him. So whatever, you know. But in the game in Houston, there was a weird ending to that game. Darius Garland had been 12 of 12 on clutch free throws. He gets fouled shooting a three pointer, flagrant foul and he misses two of the three. And he had missed five free throws in the game. There was some stat that stats info cooked up that he missed. He missed after. He almost never misses two free throws in a row. Basically it happens 1% of the time when he misses a free throw, he almost always makes the next one.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know you were in Paris, but we are going over a game from five days ago now.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right, fine. I'm just telling you there was this, that was one game. But in that game, we know the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Cav should have won the game. It's okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I'm just saying. Whatever. So anyway they want, they pulled that game out. They And Amen went 16 and 16 in that game. And then the game Saturday in Cleveland, which the Rockets led throughout. The Cavs made a huge run in the second half to make it close, but he goes for a triple double. 23, 14 and 10. Wow.

[Dave McMenamin]

I mean he. And so last year when the Rockets went on that roll in March, you know, the 11 game winning streak and all that, and Shingon missed all but the first couple games. He had the injury that ended his season. So Thompson was basically playing the five offensively and he was thriving as the, you know, as a role man, all those kind of things. When you talk to people around the league, one of the questions was, hey, can Shingon and Thompson play together? Can. Is that a fit? You know, what's the spacing like there? How's that going to look, those two when they're in lineup together? The Rockets have a plus 10.2 net rating. The defense has been awfully good. 105.8 and 116.1 is pretty good. Offensively, both really, really good passers. It's not like conventional modern NBA spacing, but they, they found ways to make it work. And you know, both those guys can pass out of the short roll. Both of Them can kind of operate out of that dunker spot Thompson a lot of times that's where they put him in the half court.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, they're probably the two best passers on the team, right Tim? I mean he's pretty good, but yeah, probably better than him.

[Dave McMenamin]

I was gonna say on where you put, where you put Van Vliet in that. But yeah, the, the Jabari Smith Jr thing will be interesting when he gets back. Do they put him back in the starting lineup but then his, his restricted free agency I think has a chance to be interested in the Rockets like him. I think he's got a really bright future in the NBA. I don't think he is at the same level talent wise as Thompson or talent wise as Jalen Green. And by the way, like hey, Jalen Green is put together about a quarter of a season stretch here where he's averaging 24 points per game on really good efficiency. Like 47, 40, 90 splits. You know, it's not, it's not an extended stretch but you know he's, he's 22 years old and keeps on showing you. It's. This is beyond a flash. He's shown flash in the past. This is beyond the flash. This is a, this is a nice stretch of him being a go to guy on a team that's winning should just fy.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't want to talk about this necessarily, but Jabari wouldn't be a free agent till 27, so he.

[Dave McMenamin]

Oh, that's right, his extension talks, I should say.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right, I know but just I, I just wanted to clean that up.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, 26, Brian, not 27. He could get, he could sign an extension this summer, be restricted free agent next summer.

[Dave McMenamin]

That's what I meant. I meant to say his extension talks. Having said that, honestly at this time last year I didn't think they'd get both Shingoon and Green done and they were pretty unique deals that were very different.

[Tim Bontemps]

They, they did very well on Shen Gun's deal in my opinion.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is all why we've talked about the Rockets are going to be such a fascinating team going forward. They've got a ton of interesting young players. We haven't talked about Reed shepherd at all who's been a know basically non factor on a good team this year. He's a guy with a lot of team people in the league like a lot. They've got a ton of draft picks, they've got all these Sunspicks, they've got other picks, they've got all these young players They've got Cam Whitmore, who we haven't talked about at all, who's an interesting young player too. They've got Tar Eason, who committed the foul on Darius Car on the other day. He's a very good young player. We haven't talked about him like they got all sorts of young talent. They're way ahead in the standings of where they were supposed to be. And we've joked about second phase three, but they're in second place, tied with Memphis for second in the West.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I will say this, so they won eight out of 10 and in that stretch they've won in Denver, who Denver was one of the hottest teams in the league until they got beat down by the Wolves on Saturday. That was a not a 30 point loss we did, we did not see coming. But okay, it was good, good performance by the Wolves and had a big one. But anyway, Denver had been hot. So they went in Denver, they went in Cleveland, who'd been the best team in the league. And they win in Memphis in that stretch. They took a home and home from Memphis in that stretch. So 8 and 10 with some quality W's, twice over the Cavs, twice over the Grizzlies in Denver in that stretch.

[Brian Windhorst]

Listen, they're awfully good and you got to assume to me I'm locking in Houston into a top four seed in the west and I'm close to locking Memphis into the way both those teams are playing. And they hasn't really mattered if guys have been out. They've kept rolling along all year. So for both of those teams, it's been a heck of a season.

[Tim Bontemps]

Houston has all of these. They've got a bunch of expiring contracts, they got a bunch of draft assets. But I have not heard and I don't have all the information, but I have not heard hide nor hair. I haven't heard nothing.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, McMahon has been, I was going to say McMahon's been consistent on this all season.

[Dave McMenamin]

And I've asked around lately, you know, because let's be honest, like even Rafael Stone even went on Sirius XM on the Record and said we're not going to make a, a significant trade this season. And they've been telling, you know, I've been telling you guys that that's what they've been telling me going back, you know, coming out of the of the summer. But you know, nobody's under oath. So I've been asking around and people say like I ask other GMs, like, hey, you know, do you believe the Rockets. And I haven't had a single person tell me no, like yeah. That, you know, that's how they're operating.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, yeah, I'm just saying, I mean, you know, both them and Oklahoma City are very good and very young.

[Dave McMenamin]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

So, you know, like both of them think they pro. I mean, I mean I would think Houston. Why would Houston not think they can win the west this year?

[Dave McMenamin]

Well, and the other thing that for the Rockets, they're better than they. I mean they didn't think they're going to be a 2 seed. Like they are right. Sitting in right now. They're, you know, they're honestly better than they thought. They did believe they'd be a playoff team, which I did not going into the season. But more than anything, they said, hey, we really want a full season and hopefully postseason to be able to evaluate this group and you know, we'll see what happens come playoff time. We'll see, you know, they'll have to evaluate whatever, however that plays out and you know, see if they want to change things around, you know. But even hypothetically, let's say somebody has a, you know, but Jalen Green like because that if they do something major, that's probably the guy who's getting moved. Let's say Jalen Green has a tough playoff series, but he plays at this level the rest of the regular season. Are you, are you knee jerking off of that? I don't know. Like I go back to listen Donovan Mitchell as a. In his second playoff run. He was only the second year in league. His second playoff run. They played the Rockets in the first round and you know, I talked to Don recently. He even brought this up is like, you know, young guys got to go through growing pains because he had a terrible series. He shot like low 30s from the floor. It was a five game series and you know, they got dismissed. So even if like Jalen Green has a rough postseason, if he, if he shows you this type of production and this type of efficiency the rest of the regular season, I don't know, I don't know if they're looking to really shake things up this summer.

[Brian Windhorst]

Dalen Green has. Jalen Green is never come close to being as good as Donovan Mitchell was even in the second season, including this year. So if I think we need to ease off on that.

[Dave McMenamin]

Listen, Jalen Green's 22 years old.

[Brian Windhorst]

I understand that. I'm just saying that's like I'm not saying Jalen Green has no chance to be become a go to guy on a playoff team. But like he also spent the two months before these last few weeks of January shooting 30 from 3 and being wildly inefficient. So I would just say it remains a pretty significant work in progress on that, get to that kind of level.

[Dave McMenamin]

Donovan Mitchell's age 22 season was his second year in league because he went to college for a couple years and he averaged 23.8 points per game, shooting 43% from the floor, 36% from three point range. That's not that far off from what Jaylen Green's numbers are right now.

[Tim Bontemps]

So the coaches who pick the All Star reserves, although they're not all reserves, because there's crazy freaking format this year that's I'm disgusted by. But those votes I believe are due on Monday. I'm not mistaken.

[Dave McMenamin]

They are.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't know how you don't have a rocket on there. They're in second place and so you're gonna have to honor them. And I think the pick is Shen Goon. And so I'm thinking Shen Goon is going to get, he's got a strong case of being named All Star on Thursday.

[Brian Windhorst]

I have a story coming this week pulling up picking all 24 players to be on the All Star team. And we'll see if parenting is on it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Also, I want to say one more thing. I know that, that Kenny Atkinson is a strong leader right now for coach of the year. Done a great job. They're playing great. IME Udoka, his influence on this team, no question is profound. And what he's, what the, the, the toughness that they play with the defensive end. I mean, like, look, I know that they're young and like, I, you know, I've had conversations with Rafael about their situation. I know how they feel. I get how they feel. You know, they're a top five defensive team. Like if you're, if you're a number two seed now, I don't know if they're going to hold on to that. But if you're, if you're a number two seed, which means you got home court in the first two rounds and you're a top five defensive team, that's the resume for a serious contender, buddy. Like, I, you know, I don't, you know, maybe, maybe in their heart of hearts, maybe they don't, I don't know what they believe.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, it's hard for me to see the offense being good enough to ultimately get that far.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's fine. I'm just telling you just why, where it doesn't Diminish.

[Brian Windhorst]

It doesn't diminish the job he may's done. And look, there are only five losses back of the Cavs now. I think like a couple weeks ago, you said Kenny had coach of the year sewed up for as great a job as he's done. If those teams are within a couple games at the end of the year, I, it's probably a toss up on which one of those guys wins that award.

[Dave McMenamin]

I, I think the Rockets are on their way to being contenders. I don't think it's going to be this year. You know, I do think that, you know, young guys are going to have to go through some growing pains in the postseason. And if you look at the west, obviously it's okc and then there's a drop. The Mavericks got to get healthy. If the Mavericks are healthy, I'd take the Mavericks over the Rockets in the series.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm taking Jokic over them still, too, despite all their issues.

[Dave McMenamin]

I take the Nuggets over the Rockets, by the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's one of the reasons why, you know, Denver is sort of lurking out there. And again, it's not the best time to talk about it after the egg they laid on Saturday. But Denver has been playing better and better. Oh, yeah, the Westbrook Jokic connection is remarkably working.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, again, like we talked about, it's working. It's working because they have, if they have the best player on the planet, who's unbelievable. That's why it's all working.

[Dave McMenamin]

You, you say it's remarkably working. I say it's working remarkably well.

[Brian Windhorst]

Listen, they. Nicole Jokic to me, has evolved to the place where LeBron was over the back half of the.

[Tim Bontemps]

I agree.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm just saying taking Nicole Jokic until.

[Tim Bontemps]

He loses Denver is, is sitting there. And you, you know, you look at the teams that are in front of them. Obviously the Thunder are in a class by their own, but like, with the way Denver's playing right now, they've been. I think they'd won 11 out of 14 before losing in Minnesota.

[Brian Windhorst]

They've won eight of their last 10. I mean, to me, if I'm the Nuggets, the entire. The goal for the next two months is to get to at least three because if they get off the, off the same side of the bracket as the Thunder, I'm not picking them to lose anybody before the conference finals and then take your chances playing Oklahoma City at that point. That. Because just that would be if to me, the whole goal. And then right now they're two losses back at Memphis and three losses back to Houston. So they're right, they're right in the mix for that despite all the stuff that's gone on with them this year. And we all know Jokic is going to be available basically every game.

[Dave McMenamin]

Well, and they're playing, they're starting obviously, aside from the Minnesota dud, they're starting to play or they've been playing really good basketball. And Aaron Gordon's minutes are getting ramped up. I tell you, I'm not so sure Gordon's not going to stay in a six man role though. I, I, at this point I am confident telling you I don't think Russ is coming out of the starting lineup. Before we had that conversation, I said it was probably be Christian bound to the bench. I'm not sure that I, I understand.

[Tim Bontemps]

At all, I understand what you're saying, Bon Temps, about the Yokich effect, but the, when you have a megastar like that, your goal as an organization is to put people who compliment him. And Westbrook is complimenting him. I mean he's shooting over 50% as since he's been the starting lineup, he's shooting over 50% which we've never talked about. Russell Westbrook shooting.

[Brian Windhorst]

Here's, here's what we should be talking about. And it's not Russell Westbrook. Since December 1st, Jamal Murray's averaging 21 a game, shooting 48% from the field, 41 from three, five and a half, 5.9 assists per game, if that. Jamal Murray sticks around through the rest of the season and into the playoffs. Denver gets into the top three. Denver's in the conference finals and we're Talking about Jokic vs Shea, not just for MVP, but to get out of the west and go to the finals and sign me up for that. That would be pretty great.

[Dave McMenamin]

And it's interesting because you know, they played that baseball series here in Dallas and Murray had 45 in the second game. And Malone used that as an opportunity to very publicly. I don't know why he's been getting all this scrutiny, you know, all that kind of stuff which was, you know, there's a little bit of a, of an act there. But his point was, hey, he's been playing really good basketball for a while. This is not like some breakout outlier game, you know, and his numbers at the time, I forgot but it was, you know, they were Murray esque numbers for a month plus stretch and that's pretty much continued. And, and you know, his point was like, obviously the scrutiny. Why was the scrutiny? Because the guy signed a $208 million max contract coming off of a really RO playoffs and in Olympics and then got off.

[Brian Windhorst]

The first two months of the year he shot. Yeah, the first two months of the year he Shot 41% from the field, 32 from 3, was averaging 18 a game. And he did not look like Jamal, frankly.

[Dave McMenamin]

Yeah, he was not in good shape. You know, like if you talk to people around the Nuggets, they all acknowledge like, yeah, I got up to a slow start. Had to play his way into shape. Since he's played his way into shape, he's looked like the guy who was the second best player on a championship team. If he's at that level, the Nugget's going to have a chance. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

I.

[Tim Bontemps]

Think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to H and.

[Brian Windhorst]

R Block in about one minute.

[Tim Bontemps]

All I had to do was drag and drop last year's return into H and R Block and bam. My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for all my old papers to switch.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nope.

[Tim Bontemps]

Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game.

[Dave McMenamin]

Switching to H and R Block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's better with block. You know what's smart?

[Dave McMenamin]

Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook meat.

[Tim Bontemps]

Factor your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals.

[Tim Bontemps]

Factor is dietitian approved, Chef prepared and you plated.

[Dave McMenamin]

Pretty smart, huh?

[Tim Bontemps]

Refresh your routine and eat smart with factor. Learn more@Factor Meals.com well on Monday, the Denver Nuggets next game is in Chicago against the Bulls. The Bulls have lost seven out of eight games, which is not necessarily a bad thing because they were messing around with their draft pick. They need to be, in my opinion, they need to be losing because in my opinion they should have started a rebuild two years ago, but they need to keep this draft pick. But they have lost seven of eight games. But what's more interesting at the Bulls right now is they are absolutely involved in conversations with the Suns involving possible Jimmy Butler situations. Not the Jimmy Butler would end in Chicago right where they would get involved in the trade. And look, I mean I know this is going to get aggregated. I don't know what to say. Like if I'm talking about a three team trade and Jimmy Butler is on one end and it's not going To Chicago. We're talking about Bradley Beal because the Suns could only trade Bradley Beal. There's nothing, I mean, they can trade, I guess they trade Nurkic to get Jimmy Butler.

[Brian Windhorst]

They have to trade Bradley Beal.

[Dave McMenamin]

The end the whole thing at this point. Well, not the whole thing. A huge part of the thing is about finding a place for Bradley Beal, which obviously also requires Bradley Beals.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right. We're dancing around this because I've just been burned on aggregation. But the bottom line is, is that the Bulls and the Suns have talked and the concept of Bradley Beal ending up in Chicago has been discussed. I don't, I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm not saying it's close or whatever. And obviously Beal has a no trade clause, but bond temps. I, I just can't believe that Chicago would do that deal. So maybe it's never going to happen. But it's been discussed. What do you want me to say?

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, I hope they don't because it would be one of the dumbest trades ever if they did. I mean, if they, if you watch the Phoenix Suns trade away, as Justice Zana correctly pointed out, was the best asset on the market, the 2031 Suns first round pick.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, let's just take a quick time out there. I know we may have mentioned this earlier, but just to go over the ground, the Suns do that trade with the Jazz a couple of days ago, trading their 2031 first for three picks from Utah. Justin Zanik, the general manager, goes on the goes on the team broadcast later and declares the 2031 pick they had just acquired. How exactly did he say it was one of the best?

[Brian Windhorst]

He said they traded three picks that couldn't be the number one pick for a pick that could be the number one pick. It said it was the best trade asset on the market. And by the way, he was correct because teams around the league were eyeing that pick and thinking, hey, we can get some really good stuff for that pick because we have no idea where the Phoenix Suns team is going. And if the Chicago Bulls turn around and take some combination of three picks that are most likely to be 25 or later to take on the worst contract in the league for a guy who's owed $110 million the next two years, who has a no trade clause, which means he can't actually get traded anywhere, it would be the height of insanity to do that because by the.

[Dave McMenamin]

Way, wouldn't be the worst contract in the Eastern conference. But it's a it's not 100 is.

[Brian Windhorst]

The worst contract in the league because you can't do anything with it. You can talk about Joel Embiid. You could say whatever other crap you want about any other player. If you have Bradley Beal on your team, you're at the mercy of whatever Bradley Beal wants to do. That's why it's the worst contract in the league, because it's the only. It's the only. It's the only one you can't move. You can move any other deal. You can't move that one because you have to get his permission to do it. You have to. And it's a way overvalued contract on top of it. Zach Levine is still a guy that people are not super enamored with in the trade market. But Zach Levine has been a borderline all star this year. He's had a very good year. And at some point in the next couple of years, the Bulls will be able to get positive value for Zach Levine.

[Tim Bontemps]

So that's kind of fascinating.

[Brian Windhorst]

Kind of. Price would be completely insane.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's kind of fascinating to, to acquire Bradley Beal, they wouldn't have to trade Levine. But that's. I mean, I had a General Manager like 3 months ago tell me what's going to end up happening is these untradable players are all going to get traded for each other. So he was talking about guys like Jimmy Butler, guys like Bradley Beal, guys like Zach Levine, you know, maybe Brandon Ingram. And the reason that these players are untradeable isn't because they stink. It's just because the new era and their contracts and all of them are guys who are on max contracts who are coming to the end of their deals. Well, in the case of Beal and Levine, they've got a couple years left on it, but they're not playing to the level of max contract players. And although out of all those players, the guy who's doing the closest of it is Levine. He's averaging 24 points. He's shooting a career high.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's had a really, really good season.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, this would not happen.

[Dave McMenamin]

His shooting splits are 51, 44, 79.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he's had a really, really good season.

[Tim Bontemps]

So the thing is, I mean, Zach Levine's three point percentage is up 9% this year. Far and away the best of his career. Because of his contract. He would never be considered for this. Also, his team is not good. But on straight numbers, you could argue that Zach Levine is the most improved player candidate. Now he's all, he's a multi time all star. A couple years ago, before I was going to say injury, he has had a season.

[Dave McMenamin]

He averaged over 27 a game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I mean, listen, compared to where.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was the last year.

[Brian Windhorst]

The point is, the Bulls. The Bull. All this is true. The point is the Bulls cannot do this trade. They cannot take on Bradley Beal in this contract that they can't move to get rid of Zach LaVine for the 29th pick in this year's draft and some other crappy future first round pick. Like it would just, it would be one of the dumbest trades ever because again, the Bulls don't have to do this. There's no reason for the Bulls to do this. Just wait it out. You're going to probably get some real value for Zach in a year or two because he's still a young player. He's going to keep playing at a pretty high level. He's playing really well right now. You can get something later for him. You're not getting anything for Bradley Beal. He ends up on the Bulls. He's on the Bulls. You're only getting this return. You're stuck with this contract. You can't do anything with it. It just, it would be the height of insanity to do that.

[Tim Bontemps]

So, so just, just so you know, so Levine, he's making 43 million this year. He makes 46 million next year and then he's got a player option for 48 million. This is a guy who is again averaging 24 points over 50% overall, as you said, 44% on three, five rebounds, five assists. And he has no market. No market. They've been trying to trade him for a year. There's no market.

[Dave McMenamin]

Well, and a big part of that is because he is also a guy who played 25 games last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, he has, he has knee, knee issues and a big contract.

[Brian Windhorst]

And so any struggles and he struggles on defense. And again, we've seen a lot of these, We've talked about it ad nauseam. Whether it's Brandon Ingram or, you know, Julius Randall when he was in New York or Zach. Like there's all this group of guys that are all in the same sort of level of player who are on contracts from the last CBA and they're all kind of stuck in the same bow, which they're all fine players. But there's a reason we keep talking about them all is not going anywhere.

[Dave McMenamin]

I think there is a way for the Bulls to be involved in the Jimmy Butler deal and make a Good deal. But it would have to have more than three teams involved.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh well that's the problem with this Jimmy Butler deal because you got to get obviously the Suns have to get, have to move Beal. So that's a major problem. Then whatever they get for BL they have to offer to Miami and Miami has a standard which what they're going to take. So it's like trying to get four or five. Plus there's all the apron issues and all this and all this stuff. It's if a Jimmy Butler deal happens, words to Phoenix, it's going to be a four or five team deal.

[Dave McMenamin]

Right. And, and Bond Timps, how confident or firm do you, how firm do you think the Heat are on? No money past 26.

[Brian Windhorst]

They're not doing a trade for money past 26. And the Miami Heat will just not do a trade.

[Dave McMenamin]

Exactly. We keep talking about player option in the summer of 26.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, they're not, they're not taking money that goes into 20, 26, 27. They clearly want to be in that free agency market. You know, potentially Luca could be a free agent. I don't think he's going to be but you go down the list, Jared Jackson, there's all these guys that could be free agents that summer. I'm not to be clear just for all the aggregators, sure Luca is not going to be free agent. Just saying if you go look at the list of 26 free agents, it's there's a ton of them. The capital have gone up, a bunch of money. The next couple of years it'll be the first chime will potentially see free agency really be a thing again. And guys like to live on the shores of Biscayne Bay. So Miami is looking ahead to that. They're not going to compromise that in a Jimmy Butler trade. And look the Heat, if they don't get what they want in a trade, we'll just wait till the summer and deal with Jimmy Butler then because there will be a lot more options for them in a few months if they can't get what they want.

[Tim Bontemps]

Now I do think from what I understand and I'm having just non stop conversations about this in the league, but when the Heat started this process with Jimmy a month ago before they really got serious and there was the, you know, the all out war, they were saying they weren't going to take money back past 25. Like they've been willing to maybe take money into 25, 26 to try to get Jimmy Butler traded.

[Dave McMenamin]

But they're at One point they were saying in a statement they released publicly that they won't trade him at all. So all the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. Everything's said. Again, this is all a negotiation. This has all been in negotiation.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, I understand, but my point is, I do think the Heat are trying to trade Jimmy Butler and they've, I think they've softened on their stance that they wouldn't take money back after this year. They're just drawing the hard line right now at, you know.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, the line for after next year is not going to change because that would materially impact their situation.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

For next year. They're kind of in the same boat either way.

[Dave McMenamin]

Now, Cindy, as you, as you've been working so hard to track this story, how much sleep do you think. Situation.

[Tim Bontemps]

What's the wager?

[Dave McMenamin]

How much.

[Tim Bontemps]

What's the wager that I'm trying to help you win here?

[Dave McMenamin]

How much sleep do you think it's cost you over the last month?

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, here's the thing. Like, when I'm. When I was in Paris, like, you know, people are calling me at 2:45am like, it's nothing.

[Dave McMenamin]

We hit the over Jackson. We both took the deal.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's like, it's like, yeah, just, just call him. It's three in the morning. What does he care? He'll answer the phone.

[Dave McMenamin]

Did you.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Dave McMenamin]

There you go.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's the hardest working guy in show business. But look, the Heat. But, yeah, the Heat. The Heat will walk away if the right deal is not there for them and they'll deal with it later. I think everybody would like to be done with this now, but they're not going to make a bad deal.

[Dave McMenamin]

And Jim is trying to make it as hard as possible for them to walk away.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm sure he is. But at the end of the day, like, there's also a reason why the market is what it is.

[Dave McMenamin]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, you know, there's not, Trust me, if the Heat had a deal on the table that satisfied what they were looking for, I think it's, I think we all agree, maybe Brian disagrees. I'm pretty sure we all agree the Heat had a deal that was satisfactory on the table. Jimmy Butler wouldn't be on the Heat. So it's not like they're sitting there going, we really want to, you know, hold this up. And, you know, we're absolutely not going to trade Jimmy Butler even if we get a fair deal. Like, there just isn't anything that's materialized yet. And part of that's because the team is most desperate to trade them for him. The Phoenix Suns has the worst contract in the league because the guy can say, I don't want to go anywhere. It doesn't matter what they do. As long as he hasn't agreed to go somewhere and no one's agreed to take him, then it's all, you know, it's all elementary in the end and they can't do anything about it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Before we go, I just want to say that from my time in Paris, one of my big takeaways other than Victor Wembanyama is good. By the way. Victor was, in my view, the discovery.

[Brian Windhorst]

He saw his discovery again.

[Tim Bontemps]

McMahon totally gassed. So they played on Saturday night. The after winning by 30 on Thursday, the Spurs lost to the Pacers by 30 on Saturday. Victor was, in my view, totally gassed on Saturday. He would probably not admit that. I think he might have been a little under the weather, but with not a surprise after all the commitments that he had during the week.

[Dave McMenamin]

Well, and, and honestly, as much as I hate to admit it, we got.

[Brian Windhorst]

Windy sleep updates and we got wimy sleep updates.

[Dave McMenamin]

There you go. The. The. Their domination of the Pacers in the first game has been the exception for the spurs lately. They haven't been playing well for a little bit.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's true. I don't think that their roster is that good, just to be honest. And they got a lot of work to do on it. They wouldn't admit. But by the way, I, I feel like when Minyama played like on a scale of 1 to 10, he played like a, a four game on Saturday and he still had 20 and 12. Yeah, but he only had, he only had one block. Officially there was one or two others where he could have gotten blocks. I think there was one that McMahon. You felt that. I don't think he actually got his hand on it, but I was sitting next to the scores, literally right next to the scoring crew.

[Dave McMenamin]

Oh, we saw you looking all.

[Tim Bontemps]

The fact that he only had one block when he averages four. Okay, let's, let's give him the one and say he had to just tells you his activity level one there. But let me just say my, one of my big takeaways is how hard the Pacers are going to have. It's how difficult it's going to be to beat the Pacers in a seven game series. I'm not predicting that they're going to make another run again. I'm just telling you I don't want to see that team in a series because the way that they play is Wearing. And since Neesmith and Nemhardt have come back, that is a different looking team. I spent quite a bit of time with them this week, you know, in that game, and it's not worth examining the game. But Devin Vassell, they put Nemhardt on Vassell in that game. Vassell did nothing. I didn't even know Vassell was on the court half the time. You mistaken for Stefan Castle anyway, but I didn't even know he was on the court. And so I'm just saying my time with the Pacers also, I watched them practice for a little bit and they did that old school drill where they put the lid on the, on the rim to practice rebounding. Carlisle. Carlisle's doing old school stuff like that still.

[Dave McMenamin]

Hey, the Rockets didn't have to do that until the last couple months or so. Month and a half and it's gone.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, it's one of the things for Thompson. There's a lot of available rebounds in those games.

[Dave McMenamin]

Go on.

[Tim Bontemps]

So. But anyway, just Pacers, there's, there's something going on there. I, I know where they are in the standings. I, I, you know, I know that they have some deficiencies.

[Brian Windhorst]

Brian's also discovered the Eastern Conference finalist last year, McMahon.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, no, seriously though, who he covered.

[Brian Windhorst]

In the conference semifinals, he's discovered.

[Tim Bontemps]

Who's this guy? Tyrese Halliburton. We should.

[Dave McMenamin]

But they are, they are. They've been playing well for a while. Halberton has, has had a, a very good January. But like, you know, we thought, hey, if the Pacers are really going to get back rolling, Halbert's going to have to play at an all NBA level and he hadn't played in an all NBA level. He is, he's played well.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's had a Jamal Murray kind of season the last couple months. He's definitely got back a lot closer to the version. Yeah.

[Dave McMenamin]

And like I said, January, he's played really like, he is basically 1909, very efficiently, like 52, 44, 89.

[Tim Bontemps]

And in talking to Tyrese and the Pacers, he is physically in the best place he's been in a while. He did miss a game like eight or ten days ago where they thought he might have aggravated his hamstring.

[Dave McMenamin]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

And then I, I think they got imaging and it was like, it was his groin and it's like, okay. I think he was just worried and it was like, okay. And he ended up coming through that fine and he was awesome. He had, he had an 18 point quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he's finally starting to round back in shape, which has been fun to see.

[Dave McMenamin]

Well, you know what they're. If, if the standings hold, you know what their first round series would be.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

Are they in six right now?

[Brian Windhorst]

Another Fisher's Knicks. Oh, yeah. Pacers.

[Dave McMenamin]

Bucks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh man.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which would be interesting. Well, and they're.

[Dave McMenamin]

And look, the Bucks have gotten a mystery. The Bucks couldn't beat him last year. The Bucks have beaten them a couple times this year. But yeah, I. That'd be a fun series.

[Tim Bontemps]

Who gets to keep the ball.

[Brian Windhorst]

It'd be a fun series. And they're also, they're also an interesting team to watch at the trade deadline too. I don't know what they're ultimately going to do, but they're in a bit of, they're in a bit of a money crunch for next season. They currently have no centers under contract next year. They're basically bang up against the cap or against the tax, which they're not going to pay. And they've got a roster that sort of screams a consolidation trade at some point. So it will be interesting to see if they do any maneuvering over the next couple of weeks to try to improve this team and move some money around.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I think they're, I think they're sniffing around, but you know, they did already make one deal. Thomas Bryant, who has been a really good pickup for them as a backup center. He's been very effective. They picked him up from the Heat. They are right up against the luxury tax. So that's always an issue in Indiana. And yes, Miles Turner is a free agent and I think they want to resign him and Andrew Nemhardt's extension comes on. You know, he has a, he's getting a big bump from like two and a half to like 16 million or 14 or I don't know what. It's a big bump goes from 2.

[Brian Windhorst]

It goes from 2 million to 18 million plus.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think Halliburton's supermax kicks in.

[Brian Windhorst]

So I mean, it's already started. I mean he and he and Siaka both go up a couple million. I mean the main one is the Nem Heart deal kicks in and you know they've got a bunch of guys on longer term extensions and they don't have Miles Turner under contract. So you know they're going to have to move some stuff around if they want to retain him. Miles, by the way, stay under the tax, which we know they're going to do.

[Tim Bontemps]

Miles had a great game on Saturday against Victor. Like he, like he had some moments where he got Victor. I mean, at the end of the day, it was a tremendous week for Victor, but Miles will always have a couple of dunks that he had on Saturday, and he was the better. He was the best center on the court for the game, so. But unfortunately, those games in Paris, I don't know. I think there's been five games played in Paris in the last three years and three or four years, and I think all of them are competitive.

[Brian Windhorst]

Have they? Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, no, it's the. They're. They're. They're not selling NBA basketball. Competitive NBA basketball, too.

[Dave McMenamin]

Well, yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

In Paris. All right, time for bed, McMahon.

[Dave McMenamin]

Oh, way over, baby. Way over.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you, Jackson, our producer. Thank you to McMahon and Bon Temps. Thank you for putting up with my sleep complaints.

[Dave McMenamin]

Because not complaints, these are factual updates.

[Brian Windhorst]

The fans. The fans haven't heard any in a while. They'll be happy to have had some.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you for watching. Listening to Collective. Thank you for not mentioning Pete McMahon. We'll talk to you soon.

[Dave McMenamin]

I didn't want to put my foot in my mouth. Adios, Migos.

[Brian Windhorst]

Foreign.

[Dave McMenamin]

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