← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Luka VS. Mavs Reaction, Nightmare For 76ers & Suns, History In Detroit
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Hoop Collective: Luka VS. Mavs Reaction, Nightmare For 76ers & Suns, History In Detroit
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- [00:01]
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- [00:35]
Brian Windhorst
Hello, and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday night. Now I'm in Los Angeles. I was just at the Laker Mavericks game. Just came over here to do that. Joining us from New York City is Tim Bonteps.
- [00:51]
Tim MacMahon
Hello, everybody. And also howdy, partners, which I get to do because my guy McMahon is so slow after the games that in light of a windy sleep update, which we're going to get because it's already 1237 on the east coast and the game just ended, rather than waiting for his tortoise like work to finish, we're recording right now, right after the game. Fresh after the Lakers defeated the Dallas Mavericks in the most important game in the history of humankind. And here we are, ready to break.
- [01:23]
Brian Windhorst
In all honesty, we wanted to wait till after this game to see if it was incredibly compelling. And we were going to have, you know, hear from McMahon and everything like that. And it just was, it was, it was a, it was a quality game in terms. It was close, late and everything. And the Lakers got a good win. They've won nine out of 11. But I just didn't think it was a compelling game. It had the chance to be compelling.
- [01:44]
Tim MacMahon
It wasn't compelling enough for Brian to have his sleep cut into even further.
- [01:47]
Brian Windhorst
Cut into. I mean, I have to get up at 345 to be on 7.
- [01:51]
Tim MacMahon
Like I said, cut into even further.
- [01:54]
Brian Windhorst
Well, it's not like I'm, I'm like, I'm like, oh, I need to get my eight hours, you know. Anyway, forget about that. Okay? So I will just say before we talk about this game, the most amazing thing that happened tonight from my vantage point, okay, is that I was out on the court pregame and Nico Harrison, the Mavericks general manager, was wearing. And you probably saw it if you watched the game at all.
- [02:17]
Tim MacMahon
They showed him during the game.
- [02:18]
Brian Windhorst
Yes, he was wearing a bright blue Mavericks color suit. Okay, by the way, real quick because.
- [02:27]
Tim MacMahon
We talked about this the other day, full credit to Nico Harrison for showing up and full credit to Nico Harrison for wearing a Mavericks bright blue colored suit to this game.
- [02:35]
Brian Windhorst
He picked that suit out when they left on the. When they left on the road trip. And he knew he was going to do it.
- [02:40]
Tim MacMahon
That's right.
- [02:40]
Brian Windhorst
And he came out before the game and sat right on the scorers table, which he has done repeatedly in a number of occasions. I have spoken to Nico Harrison pregame, sitting where he would sit on the scorers table. That was not an unusual thing for him to do.
- [02:58]
Tim MacMahon
He's out before games. He's consistently out before get Mavericks games.
- [03:02]
Brian Windhorst
And so was Rob Pelinka. I spoke to both of them pre game and they spoke to each other. That was on social media. Frank Vogel, who's a coaching consultant for the Mavericks.
- [03:14]
Tim MacMahon
I did not know that.
- [03:16]
Brian Windhorst
Yes.
- [03:17]
Tim MacMahon
Wow.
- [03:18]
Brian Windhorst
Attended the game and was out embrace. I don't want to say they hugged, but embraced Rob Pelinka before the game. That was very interesting. Rob Polinka, of course, fired him two years ago.
- [03:30]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah. So Jason Kidd was on Frank Vogel's staff when they won the title. I did not know that Frank was on was doing that for jk. That's fascinating.
- [03:37]
Brian Windhorst
He was there wearing his Mavericks gear. He lives in Los Angeles. And look, when you've raised a banner, when you've put a star on the center court, you may come walking through crypto.com arena with your head held high. But so that was just. I was pregame. Interesting. Right? You know, Frank Vogel's out there.
- [03:57]
Tim MacMahon
That's all pretty good.
- [03:59]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, Rob was, you know, had a great chat with him pregame. Rob was, you know, we talked about the, the tribute that they were doing for Anthony Davis that they had, they were honoring him. Mavericks. This is the Mavericks last scheduled visit. I'd love to see a playoff game. This is the Mavericks last scheduled visit this year. So even though AD wasn't playing, they wanted to honor him and AD was out there and he, you know, he talked about what they had planned for that and you know, everybody was in good spirits. Nico was in good spirits. You know, Nico was very out there. Okay, here's what we got to now. Here comes the. I have to say for me, the most compelling moment of the night and for a February pregame bontemps, the most compelling February pregame moment I've ever seen. When Luka comes out to warm up an hour before the game, give or take. And Nico is sitting very plainly, you know, in a sea of blue and gold in a bright blue suit, sitting very leisurely on the scorers table. When Luka comes out to Warm up. They are 15 to 20ft apart. Luca is shooting threes from the wing at one point. Maybe a little. Maybe 30ft.
- [05:11]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [05:12]
Brian Windhorst
I am just sitting there watching it. I'm sitting there watching it with Bill Duffy, who is Luca's agent.
- [05:18]
Tim MacMahon
Wow.
- [05:19]
Brian Windhorst
Okay. And you know, Bill has been around the NBA for 40 plus years.
- [05:25]
Tim MacMahon
A long, long time.
- [05:26]
Brian Windhorst
You know, he's known Luca since Luca was 14.
- [05:29]
Tim MacMahon
And he's on Nico Harrison for a long time too.
- [05:32]
Brian Windhorst
That's right. And he's just. Oh, he's just sort of watching with a smirk on his face. He's like, you know, I've seen a lot of things in this league and this is a special moment. So, you know, the arena is mostly empty. I mean, there's some fans in there, but like that, to me, I thought was the beginning. Beginning of amazing drama. And it kind of just wasn't. Luca had a good first shift, scored 10 points in the first quarter, made his first three, and then really didn't make much offense, make much scoring wise the rest of the game. Bon temps, the Mavericks. And not like it's an unheard of game plan. The Mavericks didn't want Luca to have 40 tonight, so they really came out and double teamed him a lot. And to his credit, he passed the ball. I think he had 12 assists. Lakers had some. You know, LeBron had a really big fourth quarter, but Luka had his first.
- [06:27]
Tim MacMahon
Triple double as a Laker.
- [06:28]
Brian Windhorst
Officially he did. He did. But, you know, and he. And he played a fine game. He just didn't play a special game, you know, when he had 10 points or eight points, whatever it is, coming out of the gate. I think we were all hoping to see some smoke, but he ends up going 6 of 17. He has 15 rebounds, 12 assists, three steals. He got in a couple of passing lanes, two blocks. He had a very effective game. He did not have a special game. And I guess we'll have to save that for April. But LeBron had a big fourth quarter and Kyrie had an excellent game. Almost carried him. Klay Thompson hit a bunch of threes in the second half.
- [07:02]
Tim MacMahon
I. I assume there was no interaction pregame between Nico and Luca. No, no, this was making sure you kind of stopped there.
- [07:09]
Brian Windhorst
Sorry. They, as far as I could tell, they never even looked at each other.
- [07:14]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, that's what I figured. But Luca just saved that for the game.
- [07:17]
Brian Windhorst
Nico was there and Luka was there and like, if either man had wanted to take it a step farther, they could have. Yeah, I remember I was at the game Where Steve Ballmer, remember when, when the, when the Clippers like told Blake Griffin that they were going to, they were going to retire his number and then like, and they saw he signed a five year contract and then like six months later traded him five minutes later.
- [07:41]
Kevin Pelton
Yes.
- [07:42]
Brian Windhorst
Blake was, was really upset by it. And like the same moment happened with Steve Ballmer in the same arena when he came back with the Pistons. I was there that night and Steve Ballmer like waited for Blake to finish his shooting and he tried to come over and talk to Blake and Blake literally ran away from him. So you know, what I was waiting to see was would Nico try to walk over there? But here's the thing. There was so much media there bontemps that it would not have been personal at all. It would have just been for show. So you know, Nico waited there, Luca did his thing and when it was over, Nico went out one tunnel, Luca went out the other and Nico sat in the bowl in a bright blue suit, you know, that they showed on tv. Mark Cuban showed up. Yeah. And there wasn't really drama after that.
- [08:32]
Tim MacMahon
No, I mean it. The game was an interesting game, I think, you know, we talked, we have talked about the Lakers defense. We talked about the other day. Let's see what it looks like going forward. I thought this game had a lot of concerning signs, I think for the Lakers defense, if you're looking at it from a big picture standpoint. I'm waiting to get the official numbers from our stats and info people. We might have them before we're done, we might not. But I thought, I mean, you watch the game too. They give up a thousand wide open threes to Dallas in this game. Now the Mavericks have a bunch of guys that can't shoot. So it was Dante Exum and some of these other guys throwing up shots that weren't likely to go in. So you could I guess argue. Well, maybe that was part of the game plan, was let's let some of these not great shooter shoot the ball. But they did get a lot of open shots. JJ Redick on the broadcast with Ali Force going into the fourth quarter talked about the amount of offensive rebounds the Mavericks got as a problem. They had 14 offensive rebounds. This is a team without Derek Lively, Anthony Davis and Daniel Gafford. They had their typical lineups out there being big inside. Be interested to see how they would match up with the Lakers. That there it is, a really compelling stylistic matchup between these two teams. Now after the trade, if they were to meet in a potential playoff series, which Certainly would be something. But look, we talked about it the other day when you have Luca and LeBron and Austin Reaves out there together for all the defensive issues you have and we had Austin Reeds guarding Kyrie at times in this game, which is a sign of the defensive issues the Lakers might have. Those three guys. There are very few teams that have three perimeter players or three defenders that can match up with those three guys. And having at least one, if not two of them on the court at all times is generally going to create advantage situations for the Lakers offense over and over and over again. We saw that throughout this game. They got clean looks for their guys all over the place. AD and or Austin Rees and LeBron both had good games. Luke obviously was throwing the ball around the place, getting the triple double and you know the Lakers are going to be awfully good with these guys all out there. Just curious to see as this stretch goes along to start to play some more whole teams what the defense looks like against a better competition. But the bottom line man is they've won 15 out of 19 and they're, they've got a shot at not only home court advantage but maybe even getting up to second in the west, which is a remarkable thing for a team that we thought was probably going to be hovering somewhere around 6th, 7th, 8th or so in the West. And now not only has Luka, but has Luca back on the court and has a chance to make an even bigger run.
- [11:06]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, and they've got a big home stand here. They can make some den and they got two home games on this, on this home stand with the Clippers back to back. So that'll be important. What happened in this game tonight, if I'm a Mavs fan, I'm not actually stressed about it. I mean you're upset that you lost and you're upset you don't have Luca. Obviously what happened in this game, you know, JJ obviously when he told Ali laforce that he went into the huddle and told the, the players that get on the boards. Because what ended up happening in this game was the Mavericks lack of a big man showed up massively down the stretch of the Lakers. The Lakers made 11 baskets in the fourth quarter in the paint, 22 points in the paint in the fourth quarter.
- [11:47]
Tim MacMahon
And had a few, two or three of their baskets in the closing minutes. Came after pretty rough offensive possessions with easy put back baskets at the rim.
- [11:57]
Brian Windhorst
And LeBron, you know, Jackson Hayes is just feasting right now on lobs. He's, you know, you know, Jackson Hayes is a fine player. He's not an elite offensive center. If they get a guy who's actually super talented at throwing down lobs, like a guy like Derek Lively, you can see how the Lakers are just going.
- [12:13]
Unknown
To have a lot.
- [12:14]
Tim MacMahon
One thing Jackson Hayes could do is jump out of the gym. Like, he can catch the ball and dunk it. Which is part of why I thought the Mark Williams trade was kind of weird to begin with, because you can find, you can manufacture center play with Luka Doncic and lebron James and even Austin Reeves and like that, Jackson Hayes is going to feast in terms of just getting efficient baskets at the rim.
- [12:34]
Brian Windhorst
What I think Jackson Hayes does is he goes in the dunker spot. He just sort of sits there and waits for the guy to draw. Like, if you had like a. An elite pick and roll player who was also a guy who could pick and pop and also pick and roll and would be very hard to, like, defend, you know, then. Then you would. May really have something. I don't want to talk about that.
- [12:52]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, what they need is somebody at the other end, which Jackson Hayes is not.
- [12:55]
Brian Windhorst
That Dwight Powell played for the first time in six weeks tonight, and he was their center that they closed with and he got eaten alive several times.
- [13:03]
Tim MacMahon
Dwight Powell is a 13th or 14th guy that is having to play in this game and is just not good enough now. And that's where if it's Daniel Gafford and Derek Lively and Anthony Davis and you've got P.J. washington playing at the three, like, you could. Like you said, you could see the formula for what the Mavericks want to be big and imposing and physical all over the place. And then Kyrie having the ball, orchestrating things, making plays. Kyrie got wherever he wanted in this game, was dominant with the ball, and they just didn't really have enough outside of him and Clay hitting some threes to score enough to win. But yeah, like, that's the formula that Nico Harrison and the Mavs wanted to see. And I mean, the question's going to be, can they get these guys healthy in time for the playoffs and what are they going to look like once they finally do if they're able to. But yeah, like, you know, I thought both teams showed some stuff. Lakers continue to get wins, and again between now and March 20th as they go through this stretch of really tough opponents, I'm going to be really honed in on this Lakers team because if they keep winning at the rate they are now, like, it really could be the two seed and we could be talking about the Lakers really having a legitimate chance to make a run in the west, which I did not expect. Just like I didn't expect Luka to be there either.
- [14:20]
Brian Windhorst
Well, and also tonight the warriors won again. I think they are now 7 and 1. I mean, they were playing the Hornets. They won by 30, 35, maybe even it wasn't. But you know, they're now 7 and 1 since Jimmy Butler got there, 1 by 36.
- [14:36]
Tim MacMahon
To be to be clear, how much.
- [14:37]
Brian Windhorst
Did the Cavs win by? I just wanted to check. I didn't see the final score.
- [14:41]
Tim MacMahon
They won by they won by 40 against the Orlando Magic.
- [14:44]
Brian Windhorst
Who did Darius Garland play in that game? I just wanted to check. I I don't know what happened. I'm completely oblivious. I don't know.
- [14:50]
Tim MacMahon
Darius Garland did not play.
- [14:52]
Brian Windhorst
Oh wow. I, I was totally unaware of that. I've never aware what's going on with the Cavs. Thank you for updating me.
- [14:57]
Tim MacMahon
Never. Never. Hopefully Darius Garland is playing on Friday in Boston.
- [15:01]
Brian Windhorst
But if you're we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about the Thunder later on the Thunder Wolves game, which was fascinating from Monday night. If you're the if you're the warriors and you're the Lakers, you're you're feeling okay about yourself as we hit about to hit the march.
- [15:19]
Kevin Pelton
More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [15:23]
Unknown
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- [15:53]
Tim MacMahon
All right.
- [15:53]
Brian Windhorst
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- [16:22]
Zach Lowe
Get in the zone.
- [16:23]
Unknown
AutoZone welcome to the A to Z savings event at AutoZone. Yeah, happy to be here Can I get some rotors? Would you like brake pads with that? How much are the brake pads free with the rotors free? Really, really free. Okay. I also need some oil. Would you like an oil filter with that?
- [16:38]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [16:38]
Unknown
How much is that free? With five quarts of oil?
- [16:40]
Brian Windhorst
Free.
- [16:41]
Unknown
Really, really free. It's part of the A to Z savings event. You might as well call it a to free at AutoZone.
- [16:48]
Zach Lowe
Get in the zone.
- [16:49]
Unknown
AutoZone restrictions apply.
- [16:57]
Brian Windhorst
Anyway, not playing tonight, but feeling blue. Philadelphia 76ers. Bontemps. I'd like to have a podcast where we didn't talk about them. And we're getting close to being.
- [17:06]
Tim MacMahon
We're not going to be talking about it much longer, my friend.
- [17:08]
Brian Windhorst
But things are getting worse. They play.
- [17:11]
Tim MacMahon
Are they. Are they getting worse?
- [17:14]
Brian Windhorst
They played the Bulls on Monday, got down by 50. All you need to know about that game against the Bulls, who have made two tanking trades, is the Hornets. And the why keeps talking about the Hornets. We never talk about the Hornets.
- [17:29]
Tim MacMahon
I don't know.
- [17:31]
Brian Windhorst
The Sixers ended the game on like a 24.4run. They cut the lead down by 20 points in the fourth quarter and they still lost by 30.
- [17:39]
Kevin Pelton
That's.
- [17:40]
Brian Windhorst
That's. I danced around it.
- [17:41]
Zach Lowe
That's correct.
- [17:42]
Brian Windhorst
And then afterwards, Paul George was like, we haven't been competitive all year. You know what? We think we're going to make a run to the playoffs.
- [17:48]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, I mean, of course they haven't been competitive all year. I mean, that quote was whatever. I mean, look.
- [17:52]
Brian Windhorst
But you were at the game.
- [17:53]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean, I mean, if you.
- [17:55]
Tim MacMahon
Want to call it a game, I mean, it was a massacre. And yeah, I mean, look, this Sixer season has been over for a while. I think we were on TV together on Friday when we talked about after the Celtic game, coming out of the break, and I just said that the idea this, the Sixer team could make any kind of run is just dead on arrival. Like there. There's no way they're going to be able to do that. And look, at some point here soon, I mean, Joel embiid season is going to be over. I don't know when that's going to happen. I mean, you know, the Sixer season is already over. Joel got imaging done Monday. They've been, you know, discussions about what's going to happen with him going forward. He's not playing Wednesday.
- [18:37]
Brian Windhorst
This imaging is probably being sent around to a lot of doctors in the last 24 hours.
- [18:41]
Tim MacMahon
I mean, look, it's the. Joel has.
- [18:44]
Brian Windhorst
How many MRIs do you think Joel Embiid has had on his knees in his life.
- [18:48]
Tim MacMahon
He's had a lot. He's had a lot on his. On his whole body.
- [18:51]
Brian Windhorst
But I'm sorry, I just can't imagine what it's like to him to crawl into another MRI machine.
- [18:57]
Tim MacMahon
Look, don't hold. I saw him on. I was there after the game on Thursday when he talked to the media and said he has to, you know, quote, unquote, fix the problem in his knee. And I've never seen him that down. And, you know, look, the thing. The Sixer season can be boiled down to one very simple thing. Over the last decade, for all the stuff that's gone on in Philly, and there's been a lot, right? The one consistent thing about the Sixers has been when Joel Embiid's been on the court, he's been incredible. And generally when he's been on the court, the Sixers have been dominant. And when he's been off the court, they've had problems, right? Even in the playoffs. Like, you go back, he wasn't exactly the same player he was before he hurt his knee in January, right? You go back to that Knick series, he's got Bell's palsy, right? His face is messed up. The guy averaged 33:10 and 5 in the series, and they were plus couldn't.
- [19:51]
Brian Windhorst
Close his eye at the. He couldn't close his eye.
- [19:53]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah.
- [19:53]
Brian Windhorst
Put up 3310 and they were plus.
- [19:55]
Tim MacMahon
With him on the court in the series. Now, again, he wasn't perfect. He had some Turnovers in Game 6. Like, I'm not trying to say he was incredible, but if that version even of Joel Embiid from April in the playoffs had been playing through this season, we'd be in a different situation, right? He has not looked like that player at all, really, this season. And this is the first time ever in his career that the Sixers have been worse with him, have been not good with him on the court, and he has not been dominant. And for everything else that's gone on, from all the Paul George stuff to all the other injuries to everything else, that right there is the crux of everything that's gone on with the Sixers this season. And moving forward, the question for the Sixers and for Joel Embiid has to be, what is it that needs to be done to get Joel Embiid back to being that kind of player again? And is that. What is that plan? Is that plan possible? What are the steps it takes to get there? That is all it comes Back to. And nothing else with the Sixers matters at all other than that.
- [20:56]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. And you know, really there's, there's, there could be a lot of analysis on this six year season and there will be, I would just say their, their bet, which includes Paul George was that Joel will be healthy.
- [21:10]
Tim MacMahon
Yes.
- [21:10]
Brian Windhorst
And, and you know, they extended him. Yes.
- [21:14]
Tim MacMahon
They gave him a multiple year max contract extension in late September. Right. Like they clearly weren't thinking the guy was not going to be playing and looking like this. So that is really where the questions come back to, is making that this was all a big bet on Joel Embiid and his health and that bet has failed and come up snake eyes and that the central question going forward is what is he going to look like in the seasons ahead. He's got four years and 240 plus million dollars left on this contract. And I think it wasn't long ago when Joel Embiid was averaging more minutes or points than minutes played. Right. Which nobody had done in 60 years. So we're not that far away from that. But there's a long way to go to get back there. And you know, that's where I go back to what Joel said last week. Got to fix the problem to get back to the player I was, well, what's the fix? Because that's the only question that really matters anymore is what's the fix? What does it look like and how are he and the Sixers going to get there and what does that mean for his future and their future?
- [22:24]
Brian Windhorst
Well, we're waiting on what that's going to be. I don't think it's going to be good news. You know, I don't think it's, I don't think we're gonna have a play.
- [22:31]
Tim MacMahon
He's out Wednesday and we'll see, you know, if and when he plays again this season for Philly.
- [22:35]
Brian Windhorst
All right, so the Suns played on Tuesday night. They lost in overtime, 151, 148 to the Grizzlies. It was kind of a crazy finish. John Morant hit a tough hanging leaner to force overtime, which is exactly what the Suns didn't need. I mean, the Grizzlies really needed the win. They lost 4, 6. They're coming home from a long road trip. Grayson Allen missed a free throw late that hurt them. The Suns are now look in individual details of the game, whatever, the Suns are now four games under.500.
- [23:06]
Tim MacMahon
They're three games 13.
- [23:08]
Brian Windhorst
They're three games out of the play in and they had a Game tonight. Bon Thames. They had. This is hard to do stats Williams. I gotta ask them. They had five players score 20 points and lost.
- [23:22]
Tim MacMahon
It's hard to do.
- [23:23]
Brian Windhorst
That's.
- [23:24]
Tim MacMahon
That was a 151, 148 game.
- [23:26]
Brian Windhorst
I understand, I understand. But it's still hard to do. And again, I'll just say this about the Suns. They're.
- [23:33]
Tim MacMahon
The suns have had five 20 point scores in a game, per ESPN research, since November 10th of 1990, which I believe is before Charles Barkley was a son. That's how long ago.
- [23:44]
Brian Windhorst
I'll bet they won that game too, in 1990.
- [23:47]
Tim MacMahon
I will look it up while we're.
- [23:48]
Brian Windhorst
Talking, but I bet they did. So again, the same thing with the Suns. The sum is less than the combination of the parts.
- [23:58]
Tim MacMahon
Like you look at, you look at 173, 173, 143. By the way, that game.
- [24:04]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. That's kind of what you'd expect, that 173 in 1990 playing against Denver.
- [24:11]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah.
- [24:11]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, you know what? That was the Paul Westhead non stop fast break. Okay. You know, that's, that's, that's not even real basketball. So that just tells you, that tells.
- [24:20]
Tim MacMahon
You what we're talking about.
- [24:21]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Okay. So I don't have a fix for them. I think what the sun should be doing is every single day they should be convening in their front office and having brainstorming on what the Kevin Durant trade should be, because that's what they're going to have to do. That's their, that's their move here and.
- [24:38]
Tim MacMahon
For his, for his. For as depressing and awful as the Sixer season has been, and it's been awful and it's been depressing, I've been around it. I mean, the, you know, we joked, I joked on Sunday night that it was headed back to the infinite pit of sadness at the Wells Fargo center on Monday. And it did not get happier during the 50 point loss to the, to the Bulls. But this Suns team, I think, has been an even bigger disappointment because they've been relatively healthy this year and they're still a complete mess. Like, it's incredible how bad this season has been. Like, yeah, Kevin Durant's missed 14 games, Bradley Beal, I think has missed 16 or 17 games, but Devin Booker's played 51 of the 58 games. Their guys have relatively been healthy and they've been healthy throughout this entire run for the last month. And they're just getting beat over and over and over again.
- [25:33]
Brian Windhorst
They made 21 of 37 threes tonight. That's 57% in Memphis. They made 21 again. Okay. Over time. All right. They made 21 of 37 three.
- [25:46]
Tim MacMahon
Hard to lose a game shooting 57%.
- [25:48]
Brian Windhorst
From three on the road.
- [25:50]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah.
- [25:50]
Brian Windhorst
And lost.
- [25:52]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, it's, it's amazing. And yeah, like, look, it's, you know, I mean, you said it. They, this, this summer, like, this team is broken. There's not a way for them to fix it. And you know, like, you just, if you're looking at this and trying to game plan out where the Suns are going to go from here, like, you have to look at Kevin Durant trades this summer. I talked about it a month ago. You, to me, you have to look at Devin Booker trades. Like, this team has no path.
- [26:19]
Brian Windhorst
I'm not touching Devin Booker.
- [26:20]
Tim MacMahon
Well, that, I mean, you could say that. But like, Devin Booker is right now in his prime and as good as he's probably ever going to be. That's not a criticism of him. He's like entering his prime years. Right. And this team has no path to being a competitive team in anywhere in the near future. Well, and so I think you have, I don't think they have everything on.
- [26:41]
Brian Windhorst
Everything their path is. You have to make a great Durant trade.
- [26:44]
Tim MacMahon
But I, that's the thing. There isn't a great Durant trade I don't think to make. That's the, that's the crux of.
- [26:50]
Brian Windhorst
I didn't think, I think the Lakers were going to acquire Luka Doncic either.
- [26:53]
Tim MacMahon
Well, yes, sure, there could be another Black Swan event. Like, that's, it's a fair, it's a fair, fair rejoinder.
- [26:58]
Zach Lowe
Right.
- [26:58]
Tim MacMahon
But like Kevin Durant, again, like, let's just have a quick, a very quick brass tacks conversation about Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant is a fantastic basketball player even at this point in his career. Right. However, he's going to be 37 in September.
- [27:15]
Brian Windhorst
He. And looking for an extension.
- [27:17]
Tim MacMahon
And looking for an extension. And he misses 20 games or more basically every year and he's probably not going to be healthier as time goes by. So if you're talking about looking at offering up a huge extension to that guy and having him be one of your two best players, like, there's only so many fits where you could send him where it's going to make any sense to do it and how much are you actually getting back for a guy who's about to be 37, has injury issues and there isn't a long term window and as we've talked about, there's not exactly a ton of options with massive draft capital that are out there trying to make moves. So, like, yeah, maybe they'll replicate the trade they sent out for Duran and get some insane return for him. I'm not really sure where that's going to come from. And short of that, like, you look at this team going forward, there's really no young talent, there's no salary cap flexibility, there's no assets to speak of. It's. It's as bleak a situation as you could really find in the league, which is remarkable when you have Kevin Durant and Devin Booker both healthy and performing at a pretty high level like that. That just sums up where Phoenix is at.
- [28:35]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, they're longing for wishing they had to Monte Kamara. And that's, I think.
- [28:42]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, you know, well, and that's. And look. And look for the Whenever the epitaph of this era of the Suns is written like, there's been a lot of stuff on the margins that they've messed up. And the the draft pick trade with Utah was a mistake like that. Including Tabani Kamara in the DeAndre Ayton trade was a mistake like that. Making the eight and trade when they made it was a mistake like that. The Bradley Beal trade was a mistake like that, even though it wasn't necessarily on the margins. Like they got Devin Booker and they got Bradley Beal or they got Kevin Durant. But there's just been a lot of process mistakes throughout and they've all added up to a very rough situation. And you know, we do these future power rankings every year and I don't see any way that the suns are in 30th because I just, I just don't see how you get out of this hole anytime soon. It's brutal.
- [29:34]
Kevin Pelton
More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [29:38]
Unknown
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- [30:09]
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- [30:42]
Brian Windhorst
We're earlier in the day here. How about that move? That was enjoyable. That's the magic of television and audio. The magic of our producer, Jackson. Okay, so on Monday night, the Detroit Pistons won their seventh consecutive game. They now have 32 wins this season. They had 31 combined the last two years. As a stat, there isn't a comeback or most improved team award, but they would be unanimous if that was the case. I actually think that it might give Philly. With where Philly is right now. If you looked at where the pistons were 365 days ago, look at where they are now. You can make a pivot if things start going your way.
- [31:27]
Zach Lowe
I mean, sure, sure, the Sixers could be better next year, but that's underselling the turnaround for the. The Pistons pretty dramatically given.
- [31:35]
Brian Windhorst
I don't think it is underselling it because the, the Sixers are a complete rock bottom and the idea that they would be having been a really good spot a year from now, it is hard to see at the moment. And just like would have been if I told you a year ago, it's.
- [31:46]
Zach Lowe
A lot more unbelievable that the Pistons are 32 and 26 today than it would be that the Sixers are 32 and 26 a year from now.
- [31:53]
Brian Windhorst
This is not worth getting into an argument. All right, Detroit is Detroit. I think most importantly is four games clear of Orlando for the six seed. They are in excellent position to get into the playoffs outright.
- [32:09]
Zach Lowe
Only two losses back and forth, fellas.
- [32:11]
Brian Windhorst
That's true. When you look at the other, you know, I, I don't know. That's right. You are there. They are very. That is very much true the way they're playing right now. Why shouldn't they look at 4th and Kate Cunningham. I was just talking earlier today to a coach who just coached against K within the last seven to 10 days or so and obviously, look, the guy is the number one overall pick a few years ago. He is not an unheralded player. But the thing about Cade that the teams are noticing is just how strong he is and how he's learned to use his strength to his favor when he's just become an offensive force. I did watch some of the game the other night when they played the the Hawks, he had a big game against the Hawks. And you know Dyson Daniels is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. And look, Daniels game is deflections and steals. It's not necessarily strength. But Cade just at times was able to use his body to just bulldoze him. And I don't know, Bontemp's like I had to look it up what the rules were for Cade Supermax because that's now on the table. Him potentially making all NBA the way he's been playing here and leading the Pistons. And it's been, it's been one of the stories of the year in the NBA. The Pistons, you know, rising to this level in the standings and their overall turnaround under JB Bickerstaff with Cade Cunningham making their first all star I think in six years and potentially I got to look back, last time they've had an all NBA player, it might have been even a decade or more.
- [33:45]
Kevin Pelton
Blake Griffin.
- [33:46]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, Blake Griffin in 2019.
- [33:48]
Brian Windhorst
He made all NBA that year.
- [33:49]
Kevin Pelton
Yes, he did.
- [33:50]
Brian Windhorst
God bless America.
- [33:51]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, he was, he was great that season. After the, after that last full season when they got in the playoffs and lost. That's the last time they made the playoffs too. And yeah, look Kate, with all, especially with all the injuries that have happened, I mean Cade is sitting there. He's averaging almost 26 a game, nine and a half assists. Combine that with the way the Pistons have played overall, I think he's got a great shot and make it all NBA which would trigger a 30% supermax for him. And look, I mean We've talked about J.B. bickerstaff for our Teddy Atkinson for coach of the year going back to the beginning of the season. Then he's done an unbelievable job. Pistons finishing fourth in the east with home court advantage. JP Bickerstaffert would coach of the year like it would be an unbelievable turnaround for this team because again your. Your point about the Sixers is fair. The Pistons last year were like 2 and 30 to start the season and were a complete disaster area of a franchise and they are now 32 and 26 going to be a top six team in the east bar and lost.
- [34:49]
Brian Windhorst
Jaden Ivy for a big chunk of the season.
- [34:51]
Zach Lowe
Like I've lost Jaden I for a bunch of year who was playing a lot better. They're playing these young guys. It's been a really impressive turnaround and Cage been right in the middle of it. I mean look, obviously he had the shin issue and missed a whole chunk of his second year. The franchise has been a mess. A lot of the time he's been in the league. You're still talking about a 6, 7, 68 ball handler who can dribble, pass and shoot. It is big enough to guard just about anybody on the perimeter, is solid defensively. Like he's the kind of malleable piece that you can put around anybody and have a lot of success. When you look at the Celtics, the Celtics are built around two big wings, right? I know Cade runs the point for them. But he's a big wing like that. That's the, the ideal piece to build a team around. And he's playing great. The Pistons are playing great. And you said it. It's been one of the best stories of the whole season. It's been really, really fun.
- [35:43]
Kevin Pelton
And look, the Pistons have been in a state of chaos for his entire career until this season. And this is his third coach in three years. It is interesting. Probably the top two candidates for coach of the year are J.B. bickerstaff and the guy who replaced J.B. bickerstaff, Kenny Atkinson in Cleveland. But this is also the first time that Cade Cunningham has been in an environment where he really had reasonable hope of succeeding. It's. They've got all these young pieces around and they had no shooting. He was playing in a phone booth all the time before the season. They went out, they got Tobias Harris. You know, people didn't like the contract, whatever. He is a professional that you've got to guard at the three point line. He's been a really solid addition for them. Tim Hardaway, Jr. Malik Beasley, Volume 3 Point shooters give them a little bit.
- [36:31]
Brian Windhorst
Of room between, between Hardaway and Beasley. They put up 15 threes a game.
- [36:37]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, they're volume three point shooters and.
- [36:39]
Brian Windhorst
Hit about 40% of them.
- [36:40]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah. And. And bond tips. I just was. Was talking to somebody recently who mentioned he was sitting right next to you in a gym in Las Vegas a couple of summers ago. And he said I was a year early. But when we were sitting here watching this guy and I remember you talking about on the pod, watching Cade Cunningham with the select team at Team USA's camp look like a blossoming star. We are seeing that translate right now on in the NBA court.
- [37:09]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, he had missed. He had missed almost all of his second year. And he's. He's coming out. He was coming out and it was like the first time anybody had seen him in months. And you were raving about him. Bon temps. And then he kind of, he was good last year, but he didn't start off great. Like we all thought he was going to explode. He was like sort of the in vogue thing to anybody who was in Vegas was like, oh my gosh, here comes Cade Cunningham. And then it really kind of didn't happen.
- [37:35]
Kevin Pelton
And he was, he was okay.
- [37:38]
Brian Windhorst
He had a good year. But it wasn't.
- [37:39]
Kevin Pelton
You can't have a good year on a 14 win team.
- [37:41]
Brian Windhorst
You're right.
- [37:42]
Kevin Pelton
It's just impossible. But this is the first time.
- [37:45]
Zach Lowe
McMahon said this is the first time in Kate Cunningham's career he's had a functioning team around it from top to bottom. They, they like, they have a solid ecosystem around him from a shooting standpoint, so he has room to operate on the court. They're. Last year they were, you know, Monty Williams was playing Killian Hayes next to him. There's all this weird stuff going on. He's playing off the ball.
- [38:04]
Brian Windhorst
How. Hey McMahon. He squeezed the Killian Hayes.
- [38:06]
Kevin Pelton
Oh, you know USWB, nobody likes to get tinkle on killing Hayes more than uswb.
- [38:12]
Zach Lowe
Look, the team just makes a lot more sense now. And to me it's not a surprise that the team makes more sense. K. Cunningham has taken a real step forward and like, I mean, it's been an awesome story. The Pistons are obviously a very proud storied franchise. It's been a really rough decade or so for them from a lack of success standpoint for a proud fan base. And they now have the makings of.
- [38:35]
Tim MacMahon
What should be a really fun team.
- [38:36]
Zach Lowe
Going forward with a. A heck of a stud with the ball.
- [38:38]
Kevin Pelton
The question is not will Cade Cunningham be all NBA? It's which all NBA team will he make. He ranks 10th in scoring, third and assist is filling stat sheet up. Outside of that, for a team that is winning, it's absolutely an all NBA season.
- [38:52]
Zach Lowe
I just, I only, I only say that I'm not sure about it because I wait to start to really map it out. But to your point, especially when you start ticking off the number of guys that are not eligible for all NBA that would have been or would have been considered for it in the past.
- [39:07]
Tim MacMahon
My expectation is that Gabe will be.
- [39:10]
Zach Lowe
In the 15 at the end of the season as things stand now.
- [39:13]
Brian Windhorst
All right, so I've told the story before, but I'm just going to tell it again because we're talking about the Pistons. And for anybody who may not have seen it, and this is on ESPN too, one of the most remarkable things that happened when Trajan Langdon got the president's job of this team. He hired JB Pickerstaff and he didn't really know him. So often you're going to get into a big job your first time and you're making a, you know, a, you know, it's not a risk hire but like you're making a huge hire. You know, his whole, you know, the coaching, the first coaching hire is so important and it would have been easy for him to lean in to. He's been around the NBA. I think he got drafted in 99 or something like that. He's been around the NBA for 20 years. There's a lot of people that he knew. But he believed that the job that needed to be done mirrored the job that Bickerstaff did when he turned the Cavs around. And so he brought him in. They got to know each other as much as they could and it was a risk to hire somebody that you didn't know when you're a first time president, when you are taking over a team that demanded instantaneous improvement. And that hire has been a home run. And so not only just the hire, but the analysis and the belief that Trajan Langdon had in going with jb I think is key backstory here and.
- [40:26]
Zach Lowe
The moves to go get Malik Beasley.
- [40:28]
Tim MacMahon
And Tim Hardaway like Malik Beasley is.
- [40:30]
Brian Windhorst
An one of the best value signings in the whole NBA.
- [40:33]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, they went and put players around Cade Cunningham to put him in the best position to really find out what he could do. Now they obviously also gave him a max contract and showed hey, you're going to be our franchise guy going forward. But they then put him in a position to play like a franchise guy and he has and the results have been what they are.
- [40:51]
Brian Windhorst
McMahon, we're here in Los Angeles and we ran into some timberwolves here in LA. They made their way out here after their 24 point fourth quarter comeback. And on Tuesday when we're recording this, they were still very much beaming from that one of the craziest 10 minutes because it was 24 points with 10 minutes to go. And Edwards comes out of the game with a bit of a sore calf with three minutes and what, 40 seconds left?
- [41:18]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, like three, 41. I think they're down 16.
- [41:21]
Brian Windhorst
The chances of that game and not.
- [41:25]
Zach Lowe
Just against any team, by the way.
- [41:26]
Kevin Pelton
Against the team that was tied for the best record in the league.
- [41:29]
Brian Windhorst
And Minnesota had a shot at the buzzer to win it like 16. They were down with 340 left and there was a ball in the air at the buzzer where they would have won it. And then.
- [41:37]
Tim MacMahon
I hate win probability.
- [41:38]
Zach Lowe
But that win probability was like 99. Eight, I'm sure.
- [41:42]
Brian Windhorst
How could it not be 99.9? If it's not 99. Nine, what is it? What is the problem?
- [41:46]
Kevin Pelton
Our ESPN research group teams that had a 24 plus point lead in the fourth quarter had won 1,552 consecutive games until the Timberwolves rallied in Oklahoma City to win an overtime. With Anthony Edwards watching the vast majority of the comeback from the bench and.
- [42:08]
Zach Lowe
Overtime, Jackson says 997. I almost nailed it.
- [42:11]
Tim MacMahon
Did, did it, did it say in.
- [42:12]
Zach Lowe
The research thing what the, what the last game was? Because I think I remember the game.
- [42:16]
Kevin Pelton
It was Nets of Kings on March 19, 2019.
- [42:19]
Zach Lowe
Oh, so that still would have been. That was still, that was the, that was the year before Kyrie and Durant. Yeah.
- [42:26]
Brian Windhorst
So a couple things from this game. One, Terence Shannon Jr. He's been getting, he's been getting extra playing time, actually. Three rookies from the Wolves have been getting extra playing time with their guys out, with Julius Randall and Dante DiVincenzo out and. But Sharon Shannon Jr. Has been playing better. Dillingham was in this game, I shouldn't say in this game. He was in during the stretch where they make the comeback. And Terrence Shannon Jr. Who was, you know, 27th pick in the draft, has been a developmental guy for them this year. He had a breakout stretch there. The Wolves overall playing really good defense, which is really the basis of their team. And they haven't played enough despite Rudy.
- [43:02]
Kevin Pelton
Gobert not playing due to the back spasms that he's been dealing with coming out of the All Star break.
- [43:07]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, and yeah, but they're four time defensive player of the year also. But more importantly, bon temps total one off game. I realized I'm not going to freak out with the Thunder, but the 2:1,2 trapping zone that Chris Finch pulled out, the Wolves were playing small. And so they had a lot of speed on the court, which allowed them to do that. But they trapped Shea aggressively and then basically played zone on the back of it. I mean, in a way it was almost sort of became a box or a triangle in two because they were trapping Shea to get the ball out of his hands and then scrambling in recovery.
- [43:47]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, the two were on one guy. Right.
- [43:50]
Brian Windhorst
I gotta say, like, if I'm watching Oklahoma City, I'm not, I'm not necessarily saying like I'm going to play that for an entire quarter, but I'm putting that in my arsenal if I'm thinking about using it against them later. Because as you've talked about all year, there are times when Oklahoma City can, especially in half court offense, can go a little dry. And secondly, Oklahoma City has got to develop ways to deal with that because after seeing what it did to them, they're going to be seeing it again. I don't know if it's going to be this week or this month, but it's going to happen again.
- [44:21]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, I mean, look, this is one of those games where I'm much more concerned about falling behind by 24 if I'm the Wolves in the long term than I am making the crazy comeback to win the game against the Thunder. What obviously is a fluke game.
- [44:33]
Kevin Pelton
However, what a USWB response.
- [44:38]
Zach Lowe
Okay, the sample Size is the 40 minutes that led up to the lead, not the crazy comeback. However, yes, if you are a Thunder pessimist, which there are Thunder pessimists in the league. The criticism of the Thunder as a championship contending team is that after Shea, there's a lot of questions about shot creation and offense. And Shea very well may be the.
- [45:01]
Tim MacMahon
MVP of the league.
- [45:02]
Zach Lowe
He has been unbelievable. But like you said, in the playoffs, you're going to see teams try to get the ball out of his hands and can Jalen Williams and can you know these other guys as they Hardenstein, Chad Holmgren, whoever's going to end up with the ball trying to make plays, are they going to be able to do enough offensively to make up for that? So I think over the course of time, if you played a triangle two and double Shay, the Thunder are going to figure that out and it's going to work. It was a good gimmick thing for Chris Finch to pull off there. Got him a crazy comeback win. But the general point of are the.
- [45:34]
Tim MacMahon
Thunder going to be able to make.
- [45:35]
Zach Lowe
Up enough offense outside of shade to win at the highest level? That is very much a question. And we talked the other day about pessimists of the Thunder. That's the biggest thing they're going to point to.
- [45:45]
Kevin Pelton
Yeah, and I don't. I'm not going to sit here and make excuses for Oklahoma City because again, the Wolves were shorthanded. They pulled off the comeback with Ant watching the vast majority of it while immersing a little calf injury. I will point out though that Chet Holmgren set out this game second out of a back to back, obviously still pretty early coming back off that injury. Terrible fashion choice. Wore a hat with like a Picture of himself on it. But again, only team issued gear would be my advice to him. Bigger point though, he did not play Isaiah Hartenstein had a facial, facial laceration and didn't play down the stretch of this game. The Oklahoma City Thunder are an average team. When they don't have either of their awesome seven footers when they have one or the other, they're awesome. When they have both, they're unbelievable. But you know, ideally if you're Oklahoma City and you've got teams that are trapping Shay up, you know, 35ft from the, from the hoop to force ball of his hands, you can get it to one of those guys in the middle of that. Both good passers, both guys capable of, you know, of putting the ball on the floor and finishing. Hardenstein's got the push shot, you know, Chet's got a lot of skills. Without either of those guys, you're taking away two of their four best players. I would say.
- [47:02]
Zach Lowe
I still say though that they were up 24 and they're up 16 with three and a half to go. And that's probably going to matter a lot.
- [47:09]
Brian Windhorst
One thing that has been pointed out, in the fourth quarter in overtime, the Wolves went to the line 22 times. So one of the ways you allow.
- [47:16]
Zach Lowe
That is how you come back from.
- [47:17]
Brian Windhorst
That kind of deficit. It helps, it helps, it helps to come back when the, when you can score, when the clock is stopped.
- [47:24]
Kevin Pelton
And our guy, our guy Chris Finch still about the refs post game talking about they foul on every play which you hear, you hear opponents and opposing coaches say that about the Thunder, certainly the best defense league, the most physical defensive league. And then he said and when you touch, they don't let you touch sga. So. Oh, Finy, I think was trying to kind of lay the foundation for some.
- [47:46]
Zach Lowe
Hey, it could be a first round series.
- [47:48]
Tim MacMahon
Could easily be a 18 series in.
- [47:49]
Zach Lowe
The first round Thunder.
- [47:51]
Brian Windhorst
You know, last time I saw Chris Finch, Ohio State had just lost to Michigan and we were very, very much lamenting the state of the two.
- [48:00]
Kevin Pelton
We're not talking about Ohio State football.
- [48:01]
Zach Lowe
Get out of here with Ohio State.
- [48:02]
Brian Windhorst
In fact we are Tyler Ford yesterday.
- [48:05]
Zach Lowe
He was talking about, he would like Ohio State too. Talk to go talk to him about it.
- [48:09]
Brian Windhorst
So I'm looking forward Finch and the Wolves are going to be in town for three days here. I'm going to see him and we're going to have a nice debrief. Not about the comeback.
- [48:17]
Zach Lowe
Get out of here. Get out of here with the Ohio State talk.
- [48:20]
Brian Windhorst
Hey, Bontems. I see a iron back there behind McMahon. He is six floors away from me. I'm here for a long week this week. Are you offering a service? Could I bring down some, some, you know, some clothing and you could, you know, make me nice and fresh.
- [48:41]
Kevin Pelton
All right, listen, I am certainly open for negotiations. I probably could have gotten that iron out of the way before we started. It's a hectic day here in a better brush negotiations. Especially since I had to pull out the credit card last night and pay for my own share of dinner.
- [48:57]
Brian Windhorst
I, I by the way, he reached for it without even me looking like I had he his credit card was already down.
- [49:03]
Zach Lowe
Wow.
- [49:03]
Brian Windhorst
Or I could even get to my wallet now.
- [49:06]
Zach Lowe
You know what that means? That means there's something coming. I don't know what it is.
- [49:09]
Kevin Pelton
Eating dinner though, it had its benefits. We went to Craig's in Hollywood. Heck of a spot. Historic spot. Boy, were they happy to see Wendy. We got there early. Our reservations about 45 minutes later. No, no, no. We got a nice little table right after.
- [49:24]
Tim MacMahon
By the way, listen, Hollywood's about stars.
- [49:26]
Zach Lowe
We got a star here.
- [49:27]
Kevin Pelton
So in, in the lobby of the hotel we run into God Sham, got the Maz assistant coach, obviously a basketball legend, a New York City playground legend. And he introduces us to one of his buddy said this is Jadakiss. And Jadakiss, the rap legend, of course Wendy to take a picture with him.
- [49:45]
Zach Lowe
So huge hoops fan.
- [49:47]
Kevin Pelton
Hey, hanging with Wendy has its benefits, that's all.
- [49:49]
Zach Lowe
I think he was just on the mellow pod the other day talking about some hoop stuff. He's a big hoops fan.
- [49:54]
Kevin Pelton
He knows he's got those little lobster claw arms when it comes to check time.
- [50:01]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, well you should have seen McMahon. Well, I'll just leave it alone. All right. Thank you for watching the Hoop Collective. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you to Bontemps. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you for watching and listening. We'll talk to you later this week.
- [50:15]
Kevin Pelton
Adios amigos.
- [50:29]
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