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Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Major Wemby Disappointment: Thunder Take 3-2 Lead Over Spurs In Pivotal Game 5
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Hoop Collective: Major Wemby Disappointment: Thunder Take 3-2 Lead Over Spurs In Pivotal Game 5
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- [00:00]
Brian Windhorst
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Jared McMahon
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Brian Windhorst
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- [00:58]
Tim Bontemps
Hello everybody. And yes, the fervor over the Knicks has not died down. It's not going to die down for another week until game one of the finals. And everybody here is rooting for seven games in the Western Conference to make McMahon work a little bit more and to have these two juggernauts beat themselves up for a few extra days.
- [01:17]
Brian Windhorst
And joining us from the Paycom center In Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, where the Thunder won by 13, they scored I think 45 more points in Game 5 than they did in Game 4 with which is an indication of how vastly different the two games were to take a 32 lead in the Western Conference finals. It is Band McMahon.
- [01:38]
Jared McMahon
Howdy partners. Can I tell you I'm fine if, if this thing goes seven, I'd like to cover an epic series. The first two games were unbelievable. Just theater. The, the and then it's, you know, it's kind of gone a little bit of a, of a swing here. The last three games haven't been that competitive. But you add it all up, it's a 3:2 series and you know, tonight was certainly the Thunders night despite a slow start by Shay Gildis Alexander. And I'm going to read you everything that Victor Wembanyama had to say after the game. Okay, that's it.
- [02:11]
Brian Windhorst
I think your connection glitched there. No, we didn't.
- [02:14]
Jared McMahon
Old Wimby who had a dud tonight. Honestly, Isaiah Hartenstein and the group didn't let him get anything going. Uh, made a bunch of free throws, as did Shea by the way, but 4:15 from the floor and shockingly unimpactful defensively. He did not do media. Not the end of the world, but a bad look for a guy who's supposed to be the next face of not just the franchise league.
- [02:40]
Brian Windhorst
This will be constantly reset. I mean, this won't stay this way. But this was the biggest game of his career tonight. Yeah, his first ever. You know, two, two game fives. And define stars careers. Certainly game sevens, but two, two game fives, there's usually more of those. Okay. And certainly, you know, the guy that I covered, LeBron 2011. Two, two game fives, you know, established his career. Okay. Victor went 4:15 tonight and had a surprising. Just six rebounds.
- [03:12]
Jared McMahon
Well, just six rebounds. And honestly, uh, I'm looking for the number here. The Thunder scored 27 points on 11 of 16 shooting when, when Wimby was the primary defender. Highest field goal percentage with Wimby as a primary defender in a game this postseason.
- [03:27]
Tim Bontemps
I, I mean, he just wasn't impactful, period.
- [03:30]
Jared McMahon
No, he, he, he really wasn't. And look, I do think it's tough for this guy to bring it when the series is every other day with the physical load that he has on him and, and the Thunder, you know, this was the second game that Isaiah Hardenstein was the primary defender on him. Obviously they're going to rotate it throughout games. In both those games, he defended them very well, but they're, they're rotated not just throughout games, but throughout the series because they have that kind of depth. You know, we're talking or texting during the game, like, Jalen Williams might be the best backup big in the NBA. He's definitely on, on a very short list. I mean, people in Detroit can, can talk about Isaiah Stewart if you want. No, Crusoe's taking his time, so on and so forth. Like, I get the physical challenge here. He's obviously the primary focus of the game plan. But look, dude, it was a failure of a performance from him, and it was a failure of a post game. Like, it's part of his responsibility to sit there and send the message from the locker room. He's. He's the face of that team and supposed to be a face of the league. And look, sh. Shay's message was basically, hey, thank you teammates, because I stunk it up in the first quarter and you guys came through for me. And that was exactly right. Now, Shay, you know, got it going in the second and third quarter and certainly did his part to pull out the win with 32 points and nine assists, but not his most efficient performance. Six turnovers, half of those in the first quarter. And he said it was one of the worst starts of my career. If there were four or five me's out there, we'd have been down by
- [05:06]
Tim Bontemps
20 at the end of the quarter instead of being right there.
- [05:09]
Brian Windhorst
I was watching very closely the start of this game because the last two games, the spurs have gotten out to enormous starts. And while they did lead early, Victor was not part of that. Basically, Julian Shampeni came out and got hot from three and got him an early lead.
- [05:23]
Tim Bontemps
I believe every other guy on the team took a shot before he did.
- [05:25]
Brian Windhorst
So, look, I'm not at these games, I'm watching these games. But I thought Victor looked like he had low energy in game three, and I was worried that he was wearing down. And then he came back in Game 4 and had a brilliant game and I thought he was low energy again tonight. And like, look, I know de' Aaron Fox is playing on, you know, a high ankle sprain that normally, I mean, a regular season, he's probably sitting, but he goes 4 of 15. Devin Vassell, who's been a really important third scorer in this series, goes 2 of 11 and Wemby goes 4 15. I mean, you know, Champagne had four threes. Castle had a good offensive game with which, you know, he hasn't always shot the ball. Well, he shot the ball great from three in this game.
- [06:08]
Tim Bontemps
Listen, there's no. There's no Jalen Williams in this game for the Thunder. There's no AJ Mitchell, and this came from the Thunder, right? Two other main primary ball handlers for OKC other than Shea, obviously. Shea's really good, but you need to have more than one guy typically, right? Twice in this game, Victor Wembanyama was on the court once in each half and Jill Alexander was on the bench one time in each half. Thunder won both those stints and outscored the spurs in those minutes by eight points. Like, that sums up the game right there. Like, if the Thunder. If the Thunder are going to win the Victor on Shea off minutes in a game, they're going to win the game. Like, and that gets right to the heart of it, which, again, like, a lot of this stuff ultimately is pretty reductive. And Shay struggled early in the game, but when the Thunder got going, it was Shay getting going in the middle of the game. Diamond guys up for assists and making buckets and getting to the line and making plays, right? And in the two games the spurs have won in the series, Victor has been awesome. And in the games they have not won in the series, he has not been nearly as good.
- [07:12]
Jared McMahon
Well, that's exactly right. He's been the best player by far in the spurs, two wins and you know, it's not even like Shay's been the best player necessarily. I like right now, if the series ended today, if it was best of
- [07:25]
Tim Bontemps
five, my vote would go to Alex
- [07:26]
Jared McMahon
Caruso as the MVP of the series.
- [07:28]
Brian Windhorst
Interesting. Yeah, well, in the.
- [07:30]
Tim Bontemps
You know, mine too, probably.
- [07:32]
Brian Windhorst
I want to talk about Caruso in a second. So we. We said that when Benyama had. He had 20. He had. He had 20 points. He made 12 free throws. That's how he got to 20.
- [07:40]
Jared McMahon
But 4:15 didn't rebound. Not nearly as normal.
- [07:44]
Tim Bontemps
It just wasn't impactful on the game.
- [07:46]
Brian Windhorst
But let me give you this number. So. So Victor's 20.6 rebounds. Okay. He's minus 8. Chet Holmgren and Isaiah Hartenstein combined. Chet 6 of 9. Hartenstein 6 of 8 shooting. That's 12 of 17. That's better than 4:15.
- [08:02]
Tim Bontemps
Yes, it is.
- [08:02]
Brian Windhorst
Chet scores 16. Isaiah 12. So that's 28. So we're looking at 12 of 17 of 28 points between the two of them. 26 rebounds. Chad 11, Hardenstein hard. Ardenstein 15, 26 rebound.
- [08:18]
Tim Bontemps
Chad had a massive game. I mean, he. Look, he wasn't.
- [08:21]
Jared McMahon
No, his first quarter, he was 44 and kind of kept him afloat while Shea was.
- [08:25]
Tim Bontemps
But just in general, I mean, it. It was a significant step forward for Chet after being terrible basically the entire first four games. Now, there were stretches of this game where he was also not great. Getting bullied inside some giving up layups where I didn't think he should have. But like you said, he was huge to start the game and kept a minute before the spurs could run away and hide again. Kept the crowd in the game, which I thought was big. And like you said, Brian, like, again, Isaiah Hartenstein and Chad Holmgren, like, they outplayed Victor in this game. Like, if. If that happens again in the series, the spurs season is going to end. And look, I am not going to sit here and say the spurs are losing Thursday or definitely losing one of the next two games. Like, right, they've shown they're good enough in the series. The Thunder is still probably missing both. A.J. mitchell.
- [09:10]
Brian Windhorst
Well, well, you had the Victor Wembanyama. He could just create two awesome games that could. But.
- [09:15]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, but there's a reason why I have, and we have all talked about the experience of going through the playoffs mattering all season because for as great as this guy is, and look, maybe he will pull this off and win the next two games, I am 100% not ruling it out, but there's a reason, basically Everybody in the history, league has had to fail before they win. This is really hard. It's really hard to go through it. It's really hard to learn the amount of energy it takes to get through it and how to deal with going through it. And every great player in the history of the league has had to go through that in some form or fashion. So this next game, like you said, game five is the biggest game of Victor's career. Now game six is going to be the biggest game of Victor's career. If they win that, it's going to be the same thing in game seven. And, like, part of all this stuff is learning how to go through that and navigate that and deal with that. And some days you're going to have 41 and 24 and be on top of the world, and some days you're going to have 20 and 6 and not be very good and lose. And like, that's. That's just part of learning what it's like to be in that kind of position.
- [10:16]
Brian Windhorst
All right, so McMahon, you mentioned Caruso. So in game four, Alex Caruso had a dud. I mean, dud. He was. He had. He took one shot, Missed it. One shot.
- [10:25]
Jared McMahon
Yep.
- [10:26]
Tim Bontemps
Sort of emblematic of the Thunder's entire performance.
- [10:28]
Brian Windhorst
They scored 83 points tonight. They scored 127, 82, but who's counting? 82. Sorry.
- [10:33]
Jared McMahon
The lowest scoring game since they got blown out by 73. Right. Record setting blowout by the Memphis Grizzlies in December 21st.
- [10:40]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [10:41]
Brian Windhorst
So Caruso tonight, awesome. Oh, four, three, six assists. You know, they. They put the ball in in case. And Wallace and Caruso's hands a little bit more to sort of make up for. No, no. A.J. mitchell, no. Jalen Williams, they combined for 11 assists. But Caruso, man, what a. What a player.
- [11:00]
Jared McMahon
And listen, man, Caruso is the ultimate playoff riser. You know, Caruso and Hartenstein were brought in to be the finishing pieces. They've both been huge, really, in last
- [11:12]
Tim Bontemps
year's title run and this one, you
- [11:14]
Jared McMahon
know, the last two years total, but also especially in this series. And look, Harden's. I'm not going to sit here and tell you Hardenstein shutting down Victor Wimanyama because that, you know, he'll be the first to tell you. One, it's not a one man job. Two, you're not just going to shut him down, but he's doing a hell of a job against him. He's making it. He's making them work for everything that he gets. And then Caruso, you know, Again, remember, coming into this series, a big part of the spurs game plan because obviously what's the number one thing you're trying to take away from okc? It's Shea. Obviously the guy's back to back mvp. You want to clog things up the driving lanes on him. You know, they're doubling a bunch early in the series and they were leaving Caruso wide open, which worked in the regular season. He has shot it great. I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but he shot it great during this, during this series.
- [12:06]
Brian Windhorst
18 of 28 on threes.
- [12:07]
Jared McMahon
There you go. 18 of 28 on threes.
- [12:09]
Brian Windhorst
And Landry Sham, it's like, yeah, right, that's nothing.
- [12:14]
Jared McMahon
And Caruso does all the Caruso stuff. All the activity, all the hustle plays, all the just defensive disruption, you know. And like Shay said, hey, he's a two time champ. He's the most experienced player on this team. He's played in the most big games on this team. You can't just, you know, try to manufacture that kind of experience. And you know, in Shea's words, Alex Caruso is one of, if not the best competitor in the NBA. And you're feeling that in this series, by the way. You're feeling that from Hartenstein as well. And so those are the two finishing pieces that Presti brought in before last season. And the guy he brought in this year has made a hell of an impact in this series. Jared McCain. And here's a dude who, you know, and it's been, it's been a bit of a roller coaster for him because he has the spectacular Game 3 total dud like everybody else in Game 4, 1 of 10. But they throw him in the starting lineup because they don't have A.J. mitchell.
- [13:20]
Brian Windhorst
By the way, how about Mark dagger? Guy goes 1 to 10 and he says, now, young man, here comes your first playoff start.
- [13:25]
Tim Bontemps
And he stunk in the first half
- [13:27]
Jared McMahon
of this game and he scores 18 of his 20 in the second half.
- [13:32]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, I mean, to me it's even Mark Dagnall going back to him in the second half. Like, all right, we're going to, we're going to keep going with you again and like, because easy could have gone to Kayson Wallace or somebody else and he, you know, stuck with it and yeah, became, responded with a, a massive second half, hitting a bunch of huge shots and a couple things.
- [13:50]
Jared McMahon
One, like Caruso said, you never have to worry about this guy being aggressive. Like that's who he is. Make or miss. He thinks the next One's going in and he's going to get his shots up and you're going to have to guard him. The other thing is, what's the concern about putting Jared McCann in the starting lineup? It gives the spurs somebody to attack. They tried. There were 4:14 with him as the primary defender. Fox, Castle and Vassell were 0 of 9. You know, that's the top three perimeter
- [14:23]
Tim Bontemps
scorers in the starting lineup were 0
- [14:24]
Jared McMahon
of 9 going at them.
- [14:25]
Brian Windhorst
And we didn't even talk about Kendrick
- [14:27]
Jared McMahon
Williams, Ken Rich, you always screw that up.
- [14:29]
Brian Windhorst
I always screw it up. Kendrick Williams, he comes in, plays 12 very impactful minutes, hits a couple of threes.
- [14:34]
Tim Bontemps
Guys be at a rotation for almost any other team and it's just a break glass of a case of emergency guy.
- [14:39]
Brian Windhorst
That's why I say the Thunder are never desperate.
- [14:42]
Jared McMahon
Well, and listen, man, I know people get bored by the boy scout Thunder culture and all that, but think about Kenrich Williams. He doesn't play other than garbage time the first two series. And you know, really not until game four did get thrown in the rotation and he was one of the only guys who played well in game four. And then he comes in and gives them some big minutes in game five.
- [15:04]
Tim Bontemps
They hit two massive threes.
- [15:05]
Jared McMahon
And then, you know, Case and Wallace, he got pulled from the starting lineup today. He got pulled, you know, like he was the guy who started once A.J. mitchell went down. He's started a bunch of games when they had guys out this year. Mark Dagenau walks in, you know, 10 minutes before shoot around, says, hey Case, and you know, we're going to go with, with Jared in the starting line tonight. You're going to come off the bench. And as Mark said, it's not a conversation that he was worried about. He, you know, like he knows Kayson's going to handle. He's a young guy, ambitious, obviously extension eligible this summer, by the way. He's not worried about all that. He's worried about winning games. And the guy comes out and he's plus 29 tonight. And you know, you mentioned the assist. He a couple blocks, a couple steals. Well then it's not like he had a huge score tonight. He's just making all kinds of winning plays. And that's kind of the epitome of this team. They've got 13 dudes on the roster who've proven they can make winning plays.
- [16:04]
Brian Windhorst
I want to talk about what we think we're going to see in game six. But real quick, was there any clarity about why Alex Caruso Went to the back because I was changing planes in Minneapolis during this, by the way, you know, Minneapolis airport, Bon Temps.
- [16:18]
Tim Bontemps
You're.
- [16:19]
Brian Windhorst
You're the Delta man.
- [16:21]
Tim Bontemps
Sure.
- [16:21]
Brian Windhorst
I had to go from this is all inside baseball. You know, we have some traveler, we have some Delta frequent flyers. I had an F15 to B6 tonight.
- [16:34]
Tim Bontemps
It's a tough travel across. And I walked the whole travel across the airport.
- [16:38]
Jared McMahon
Do they both have first class, you know, window?
- [16:40]
Brian Windhorst
It's not relevant. It's a question.
- [16:42]
Jared McMahon
It is relevant.
- [16:43]
Brian Windhorst
I traveled across the air. I walked the whole thing. I didn't take the train.
- [16:46]
Tim Bontemps
You had to shuffle those legs a little ways.
- [16:50]
Brian Windhorst
My point is like during that time, I didn't see Caruso and I was listening on the radio to Mark Kestershire and PJ Calissimo and they thought he might have had a head injury. The TV broadcast thought he might have had an ankle injury. Was there any clarity to that?
- [17:02]
Jared McMahon
I. I'll be honest with you. I did not get clarity.
- [17:05]
Brian Windhorst
All right, fine. Yeah. I just want to take credit for my.
- [17:08]
Tim Bontemps
He did hit his head on the floor. However he stepped on. I believe Stefan Castle's foot was feeling his ankle. He went to the back. He very quickly came back to the bench and he came back in the game. I think he rolled his ankle. Right, okay.
- [17:20]
Jared McMahon
But I didn't get clarity.
- [17:22]
Tim Bontemps
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Jared McMahon
The NFL schedule dropped and it's time to settle up. There's road trips to plan, hotels to book, tickets to split, tailgates to cover, scores to settle.
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Brian Windhorst
All the things for the season.
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Jared McMahon
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Tim Bontemps
Yep.
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Brian Windhorst
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Jared McMahon
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- [19:37]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, one thing I want to point out, actually a couple of things. First off, she Gildas Alexander was 7 of 19 tonight. Now this was in game four. That officiating crew let that game be a little bit more physical. Free throws were down in that game. In this game, both teams took over 30 free throws. The Thunder 38, the Spurs 32. Wemby took 12, Shea took 17, made 16 of them. I'm sure certain people have a certain feelings, but he's 7 of 19. In this series or in this game?
- [20:10]
Jared McMahon
In the game.
- [20:10]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, in the series. He is. Now this is a guy, by the way, who shot 55% during the regular season.
- [20:16]
Jared McMahon
Yeah.
- [20:17]
Brian Windhorst
Okay. He's now, it's easy math to do. He's now 38 of 100.
- [20:22]
Jared McMahon
Oh, I know what that is. That's 38%.
- [20:24]
Brian Windhorst
This is a guy, I think he shot over 50%. Four years in a row, something like that. Three, four years in a row.
- [20:31]
Jared McMahon
He's averaged 30 plus on better than 50% shooting four straight years. And the spurs are doing a hell of a job defending.
- [20:37]
Brian Windhorst
I mean, I'm not saying he's sucking, I'm just saying he's in an all out battle here. No Jalen Williams.
- [20:42]
Tim Bontemps
Well, and they can, and they can really load up on them because these other guys are. And they are loading up on them. That's why, you know, in game four, the others didn't hit any shots. Thunder got wrecked in game three and game five. The others hit a lot of shots and they won. And like that. I mean there's two pretty obvious things to watch going into Game six. One is the energy level of Victor Wembanyama. Is he going to come out and be hyper aggressive right from the jump, which I sort of expect him to do. If he's got it in him, if the tank just is not empty and then on the other side, how are the others going to play? Like, Shay's going to put up numbers. He'll probably do it. Not as efficient, not as efficiently as normal, but he's going to. He always gets points, he always gets assists. I think if the Thunder are winning Game six, it's because they get another good game from Alex Caruso to get some shots from Jared McCain. Jalen Williams hits threes. Kayson Wallace hits some threes. Isaiah Hartenstein plays well again. Chad Holmgren plays well again. Like they need. Presuming Jalen Williams is still out, which I think we all would agree, especially now that it's shifted to a hamstring strain on the injury report. It's hard to see him playing. It's hard to see AJ Mitchell playing with a calf string.
- [21:55]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, they're just calling it. They're not playing shenanigans with AJ Mitchell. They're just saying he's out. They're, they're, they're pretending like Jalen might play and he's obviously not.
- [22:02]
Jared McMahon
Yeah, he's doing this like stationary shooting stuff pregame, and then it's like always out.
- [22:07]
Tim Bontemps
So are the others going to make enough plays? Like, I think that's. What's Victor look like? What do the others look like? If you tell me those two questions, you probably tell me what the game looks like.
- [22:17]
Jared McMahon
I hear what you're saying and I, I don't necessarily disagree.
- [22:21]
Tim Bontemps
Mark Dagen will also talk about like,
- [22:23]
Jared McMahon
you know, he loves the, the word force. And by that he, he's talking about aggression and not just like aggression of the guy who's got the ball in his hands, but aggression and the off ball movement, you know, the cutting aggression in the screen and aggression and how fast they're getting into their actions, how fast they're bringing the ball up the floor, you know, and then, you know, kind of that leads to better shots. You know, that is, is what he'll tell you. You know, he said game four was like as ugly as the results were. He said it was their worst process game by far all season long, you know, in the process. And the results matched. I, I'm not going to rule out though, with all due respect to Stefan Castle and Victor, women Yama and the rest of these spurs defenders, I'm not going to rule out that Shay a lot like he did in the closeout game against the Lakers, having his best game of the series and having an MVP caliber, you know, knockout punch.
- [23:26]
Tim Bontemps
Oh, I, I'm not saying that's not in the cards either. But like, even if Shay does that, let's say shay goes for 45 in the game, like he can't do it by himself and he's going to need some of those other guys to make plays. And again, on the other side to me, with the spurs, just everything starts and ends with what Victor looks like. And if Victor looks like he did it all in game one or at all in game four, then the spurs are going to be live in it. And if he looks like he did in games especially games three and five, you know, I'd say there's a pretty good chance the series ends on Thursday.
- [23:57]
Brian Windhorst
Well, along those lines. So in the series with the Wolves, Dylan Harper, okay, averaged 15 points, six rebounds, shot 57%. Like was a, you know, you know, Victor, you know, in that series, you know, he had a good series, but he was not credible. You know, he averaged less than 20 points a game.
- [24:17]
Tim Bontemps
But Mandelin was incredible in game one. And then he had that adductor injury in game two.
- [24:22]
Brian Windhorst
So game one, he scores 24 now double overtime. So there's a little bit extra time.
- [24:26]
Tim Bontemps
24, 11, 6 and 7.
- [24:28]
Brian Windhorst
24, 11, 6 and seven. So he, then he gets hurt in game two, game three comes back, I think much to our surprise. Yeah, and he goes 2 of 7 in that game, shooting 2 of 4 in game four. And then tonight, let's see, he was,
- [24:46]
Jared McMahon
yeah, he was one of five. Five points, six rebounds, three assists. Look, you're. It's going to be really tough for them to win obviously with Wimmy doing what he did. But like if, if Fox and harper combined for 14 points on 20 shots, that ain't going to cut it. They need two of their three guards at least to really play well.
- [25:07]
Brian Windhorst
Or they need Wemby to put up 40.
- [25:10]
Jared McMahon
Yeah.
- [25:11]
Brian Windhorst
Which you can do.
- [25:11]
Tim Bontemps
They still need those guards to do stuff to. Again, like it, like it starts with Victor. Victor's got to be great. But they're going to need some of those guys to do stuff too. And again, we're talking about the Aaron Fox playing on a high ankle sprain. We're talking about Dylan Harper playing through this doctor thing and other not in the injury report. But those guys clearly aren't 100% and full props to him for playing like this is, these teams are, this is a war and these teams are fighting through it every game. And you could see in this game there was a lot of tired mistakes on both sides in the second half of this game. Because I mean, like Brian said, I don't get the pleasure of being in the building like you are, but I mean this is, this is as high intensity and as physical basketball as you're going to see. Like, you know, this is the highest level stuff possible. So I mean it's, it's a knockdown, drag out fight to get through each of these games and it, it's starting to look like it on both sides.
- [26:02]
Brian Windhorst
Well, this, I, this to me, this got seven written all over it because I think Victor bounces back and I'm not sure, I mean like, maybe Shai goes down there to San Antonio and like, and has a breakout. I mean he had 32 tonight, but it was not.
- [26:16]
Jared McMahon
That wasn't a pretty 32.
- [26:18]
Brian Windhorst
32 maybe, you know, he's a two time MVP. Maybe he does it. But I'm not seeing Shay. I think Shay's gonna have to be in an absolute dogfight throughout this thing. And I'm, I think Victor has a big bounce back because I just think that's his personality and I think he'll rise to the occasion. And one thing about this first team is when they've had adversity throughout the playoffs, they've always bounced back. So I don't know how you feel about the McMahon. You're, you're, you know, you're dealing with this travel back and forth, but this has seven written all over it to me.
- [26:45]
Jared McMahon
I packed several suits.
- [26:47]
Brian Windhorst
How many shoes?
- [26:50]
Jared McMahon
Well, I went home briefly on Monday. I got five suits, I think seven pairs of shoes.
- [26:57]
Brian Windhorst
I'll tell you this. So we were packing all the logistics people in, in Cleveland today. We did some TV today from the arena.
- [27:07]
Jared McMahon
Oh, you were wearing that calves wine too. I noticed that merlot. Oh, Chardonnay.
- [27:15]
Brian Windhorst
It's always kind of, you know, there's always sort of a somberness when you are staying to do TV when the seat, when the team season is over and like they're shutting down the arena for the year. So we were in the arena today and they were, you know, peeling everything apart. But anyway they were shipping everything, all the, all the gear like they were getting ready and they were just shipping it to Dallas McMahon. They didn't know, they didn't know if they're gonna have to send everything to Oklahoma City or send everything to San Antonio. So they're, they're shipping stuff.
- [27:45]
Jared McMahon
Well, that's where, that's where my layover is.
- [27:47]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that's the thing. I mean, it's got to change all the gears, got to change planes there anyway. So, yeah, it's all, it's all going to Dallas and waiting for further instruction.
- [27:55]
Tim Bontemps
There you go.
- [27:56]
Brian Windhorst
But, yeah, I think this has seven written all over it. I don't know how you feel about it, Bon Temps, but I mean, it's
- [28:01]
Tim Bontemps
going to be fascinating to see. I mean, look, I mean, it's not a great look for Victor to walk out without talking tonight.
- [28:06]
Brian Windhorst
Well, a great look would be to come back with a big game in game six.
- [28:09]
Tim Bontemps
You better show up and play well on Thursday. Nobody will remember because, you know, he's very good. And look, Victor, Victor's going to be the face of the league. I think his reign atop the league, whether they win the series or not, started with game one. That's going to be like LeBron's 48 special. Like they didn't win the finals that year, but that's like sort of the first moment everybody really remembers. Like everybody's going to remember that 41 and 24 game, then winning game one. But, you know, like that I, I expect better of that. And look, who knows, maybe there's something going on. But at the end of the day, he didn't have a good game and he didn't talk to the media. It's not great. So let's see how he and they respond. This is a. Like you said, they've bounced back a million times this year. They've been incredibly resilient despite being a really young team. And, you know, I'm, I expect them to go back home and play great, but let's see how it goes. And like you said, McMahon, see if Shay can go in there and take him out. You know, I mean, he is the two time MVP for a reason.
- [29:05]
Brian Windhorst
I was going to say, let's see
- [29:06]
Jared McMahon
if Shea can go there and say, by the way, you'll get there one day, but I'm the man right now. Yeah, he's got a chance to make that kind of statement.
- [29:15]
Tim Bontemps
Sure.
- [29:15]
Brian Windhorst
All right, back on the hoop collective with bon Tempson. No, McMahon.
- [29:19]
Tim Bontemps
Much better.
- [29:20]
Brian Windhorst
All right, Bontemp. So Kenny Atkinson won. I think so. They won 52 games this year and 64 last year.
- [29:31]
Tim Bontemps
It's 116 if that math is correct.
- [29:34]
Brian Windhorst
So 116. Let's say it's around 120 regular season games. He won three playoff series. Cavs first conference finals without LeBron since I was in eighth grade in the
- [29:47]
Tim Bontemps
90s a long time ago.
- [29:49]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Not ideal that it would have to be news today that he was not getting fired.
- [29:56]
Tim Bontemps
That's correct.
- [29:57]
Brian Windhorst
And I think that sort of sums up where the Cavs season ended, which is they can't be like, upset, but it stops short of being satisfied. And that leaves them in an interesting position going forward.
- [30:15]
Tim Bontemps
Yes, I would agree. And I will refer back to the tweet that Dan Gilbert sent out after the game last night. We took a step ahead this spring, but we are nowhere near where we need to be. Can't thank the fans enough for their support this year. We will dig it all summer and do everything we possibly can to take the next step. We will grind until we get there. We congratulated the Knicks. Now the Cavs are nowhere near where they need to be and they're going to do everything they possibly can to take the next step. So, Brian, you've been around the NBA for a long time. The Cavs have chosen to keep their head coach by extension, keep their front office. And I think you would agree that they're not going to trade Donovan Mitchell and they're going to resign in some form or fashion, James Hart. So if the Cavs are nowhere near where they need to be and they're going to grind all summer to get there, to me, that very obviously says Evan Wibley will not be on the Cavs next season, or at least that he is not going to be on the Cavs if they do anything to the roster. Because that is the one lever they have to really pull to actually fundamentally change the team and truly get the player that is better than Donovan Mitchell on the roster. Because that is inherently the problem the Cavs have. When the Cavs made the Donovan Mitchell trade, the idea was Evan Mobley would ascend and become the best player by about now. Donovan Mitchell would be a perfect second player with him or Donovan Mitchell would be good enough. Right. And we're now four years into the experiment and neither of those things has happened. So you're the veteran Cavs watcher, obviously, but that is my pretty clear read of where things sit.
- [31:59]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. So they have two pathways. And let me acknowledge the two pathways. Although Dan Gilbert's tweet, if we take it at face value, which I don't think we shouldn't, I think we should take it at face value. That's a better way to say it, they could, you Know, Kenny Atkinson came up and basically made the pitch and it was kind of half hearted. And quite frankly, Kenny Atkinson public appearances in the last 10 days have been a little rough. So. But I think we should acknowledge that he said that, you know, he thinks they should bring the team back, put them through a training camp because a big chunk of the team changed midseason, especially James Harden. And that's definitely a shock to the system and he thinks that they can be successful next year. And you know, it is. I think we should point out that the Knicks reached the conference finals last year, changed their coach, but basically held their roster intact.
- [32:55]
Tim Bontemps
And, but hold on, hold on. The Knicks changed their coach, Right? The Knicks didn't run it back with the same group.
- [33:03]
Brian Windhorst
The Knicks also upset the Celtics last year and were pretty impressive, you know, and.
- [33:08]
Tim Bontemps
Correct. But again, the Knicks changed their head coach. They bet that a change in head coach would change the formula. It wasn't. We're going to run back with the exact same thing.
- [33:19]
Brian Windhorst
That's correct.
- [33:19]
Tim Bontemps
And we're going to. And we're going to be better. Like it would have been understandable if the Knicks had done that last year. Just like it's understandable that the Cavs brought back Kenny Atkinson. But the Cavs were not good enough this year. Their playoff run was, yes, they got to the conference finals, but it was not an impressive run to the conference finals. They wheezed their way there past two flawed teams. And again, like you said, Dan Gilbert,
- [33:43]
Brian Windhorst
the Knicks playoff run was more impressive last year. It was easier to sell the idea of that.
- [33:49]
Tim Bontemps
And, and the conference finals were competitive with seven games. Well, that's what I mean. They were. It was six games.
- [33:55]
Brian Windhorst
Exact inverse. I was six.
- [33:56]
Tim Bontemps
It was six games. But, but it was a, it was a long competitive series and you know, like this one was not. This was not.
- [34:04]
Brian Windhorst
All right, so let me get to where you're going. So I just think have to acknowledge that one pathway is status quo. I know that like of course steam comes out of people's ears in Cleveland. I was saying this today on Cleveland media. They do not want to even discuss that. But Kenny Atkinson put it out there and I know talking to some people in and around the organization that that is on the table. I don't think that's the way they're going to go. But it's not good reporting for me to tell you that that's not on the table because it is for sure. All right, now you mentioned Evan Mobley when The Cavs traded 26 year old Darius Garland for 36 year old James Harden. They crossed a Rubicon, as we've discussed on this podcast, that they know. They. It was like when Nixon took the US off the gold standard, the Cavs.
- [34:47]
Tim Bontemps
That was not the reference you should have done on the podcast there, pally.
- [34:50]
Brian Windhorst
I missed McMahon. It's too bad McMahon's not here for that. The. They went off the Mobley standard and onto the Mitchell standard. Okay. And so that's a half measure. And so the question is, will they go full measure? And I, and I don't think it only has to be Evan Mobley. I think they could examine Max Struss and Jared Allen as.
- [35:11]
Tim Bontemps
No, they can't. Not really. Because again, the fundamental problem. Well, let's just, let's just be. Let's have a real conversation about the Cavs. Right? The Cavs can do, the Cavs can do lots of things, right? Sure, the Cavs can do all sorts of different paths, like in the abstract, but the reality is very clear. Donovan Mitchell is not good enough to be the number one guy on a team to get to the end. He's a great player, but he's proven over time with both Utah and now Cleveland to not be that good, which again, there's only a couple guys in the league who are that good. That's not a crime. Evan Mobley was supposed to be a guy who could potentially ascend to be that level of player. It's only year five. I guess you can't rule out the chance of that happening. But I think it's safe to say it's unlikely Evan Moby is going to become that kind of player. So to me, it's either the Cavs run it back with this group and hope that despite all the available evidence that we have, things are going to completely change, or they look in the mirror and say, okay, if we're really committing to the Donovan Mitchell timeline, which they're going to re sign Donovan Mitchell or they're going to try to. And Donovan has said he wants to stay there and they already made to your point, Darius Carla for James Harden trade, which is a win. Now trade. If you can use Evan Mobley to get a player that's better than Donovan Mitchell right now, this is your window. James Harden's 37. We're going to be 37. It's not like he's 32 or 27. You know, Donovan Mitchell is across 30. Like this is the time to win is right now, not in three years.
- [36:48]
Brian Windhorst
Right. So, okay, but I'm just again I just want to acknowledge before all the Cavs fans think you've got Evan Moby traded, that there is another path that they could look, you know, to trade Max Druce, who's going into the last year at 17 million.
- [37:05]
Tim Bontemps
Are any of those trades going to make the Cavs?
- [37:07]
Brian Windhorst
No, but I. No, but I. No, I'm reporting the way the system goes. I'm not saying what they should do. You're saying what they should do, and that's fine.
- [37:15]
Tim Bontemps
No, I'm. I'm. I'm going off the. I'm going off of the evidence of Dan. What Dan Gilbert said, which, as you said, I think it's fair to take at least some stock in what Dan Gilbert said and the Cavs. And let's go off actions over words. The actions of the Cavs in February were that the window is now correct, not in three or four years. So again, and I'm not saying trade Evan Mobley for a bag of beans. Evan Mobley's a really good player. But again, the statement is you, you in theory either need to have Donovan Mitchell be good enough or you need to get a player that's better than Donovan Mitchell. So he's the second best player, which he obviously is good enough to do that.
- [37:57]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, a few housekeeping items. Evan Mobley has four years and 220 million left on his contract. He makes $50 million next year, so keep that in mind. James Harden has a $42 million player option, but it's not really a player option. It's a strange contract. It was difficult for me to sort of go over this with some of the folks at ESPN the last day. It's a player option. He technically controls it, but if he opts in, only 13 million of it is guaranteed. I say only, like, that's a small amount, but, you know, and that. And the Clippers were not prepared to pick that up or guarantee him a new contract. That's why he ended up getting traded. What is going to happen is that he is going to opt out of that contract, become a free agent, and the Cavs are very likely going to sign him to a new multi year deal where he gets more guaranteed money. Like I said, he's guaranteed right now about 30 million. I'm sorry, he's guaranteed 13 million.
- [38:50]
Tim Bontemps
Right. He's going to be a Cav on a multi year deal. Right.
- [38:52]
Brian Windhorst
But let me tell you the reason why. The point is, they bring his number down and then they dip under the second apron and by dipping under the second apron, they open themselves up to be able to make more complex trades. Now, you say Evan Mobley, you think about what they could do with them. The first name that comes to mind is Giannis. Evan Mobley will turn 25 in the off season. Giannis, I believe, is 31. Evan Mobley has had a couple of injury things. He had knee surgery a couple years ago, but has been healthier than Giannis over the last few years. Obviously younger. But as somebody in Cleveland told me this week, the Cavs drafted Evan Mobley to hopefully become Giannis. Would they pass on the opportunity to actually trade for Giannis?
- [39:46]
Tim Bontemps
That's the kind of trade we're talking about. I'm not saying trade Evan Mobley for draft picks or trade Evan Mobley for role players or whatever. The move, the move. If you're, if you're really looking at where the Cavs are at, again, use the Knicks as an example. What did the Knicks do? The Knicks fired their coach to try to get better. Go back a couple years ago when the Celtics lost in the playoffs. Right. What did they do? They went and got Drew Holiday. They went and got Chris As Porzingis. Right. What did the Thunder do? The Thunder went and got Isaiah Hartenstein and Alex Caruso. They already had Shea. But again, getting a. Another role player on this Cavs team is not going to be the thing that makes a difference. So if you're going to make a real significant change, it's got to be. And they already passed on changing the coach. And you're keeping Donovan Mitchell and you're keeping James Harden. There's only really one change left to make, right?
- [40:39]
Brian Windhorst
And let me just say, like, I don't know, I don't know if the Cavs could have beaten the Celtics this year. They were on the opposite side of the draw. And Tatum, they obviously were not in the same class as the Knicks. And I don't know where, you know, they barely beat the Raptors without Quickley and Ingram for most of the series.
- [40:58]
Tim Bontemps
And they barely beat the Pistons.
- [41:00]
Brian Windhorst
Yes, but they did beat them.
- [41:01]
Tim Bontemps
They did.
- [41:02]
Brian Windhorst
And I don't know where.
- [41:03]
Tim Bontemps
The Pistons are younger and should get
- [41:04]
Brian Windhorst
better, and I don't know where they would rank against the reinvigorated Pacers who they couldn't beat last year.
- [41:11]
Tim Bontemps
The east is going to be deeper next year.
- [41:14]
Brian Windhorst
So the question I have for you is if they come with Evan Mobley and they have a couple of other assets, you know, they have Max Druce, like I said, $17 million expiring contract.
- [41:24]
Tim Bontemps
That's not really an asset. Their assets are their draft picks, and I would say Jaylon Tyson, who's a pretty interesting second year wing. That's. I'd say what their assets are.
- [41:32]
Brian Windhorst
They have two first round picks they can trade, but one of them is this year's Pick, which is 29th, which is not an attractive piece, but it's still a first round pick. So in their.
- [41:43]
Tim Bontemps
I think they have an extra one to trade once they get to the draft too. Right. Because of the new league year.
- [41:50]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, but they're 20, whatever, 30, whatever pick is frozen because they were.
- [41:53]
Tim Bontemps
Oh, that's right. Picks. That's right. They got a frozen pick. Forgot about that. That's right. That's right.
- [41:58]
Brian Windhorst
So they have trade, but I think it's 2. Don't hold me to this, but I think it's 31 they can trade.
- [42:04]
Tim Bontemps
That's right.
- [42:05]
Brian Windhorst
And they can trade a couple of six after the draft.
- [42:08]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [42:09]
Brian Windhorst
All right, so let me ask you, do you think Evan Mobley. And, you know, maybe you could add a pick and maybe you could add another player. I don't know, is that attract. Is that enough to get the Bucks interested in doing it?
- [42:23]
Tim Bontemps
I think it's enough. Yeah. I think it's enough. I think, you know, Evan Mobley is a super interesting young player who would have a lot of value. And I think, you know, whether the Bucks want to keep them build around him or if they want to flip them again, I think he could. You know, I would say if you're a team in. In Milwaukee's position, you go back and look at what the Oklahoma City Thunder did in the wake of the Paul George trade, right. They made about. I think it was either that summer, that offseason, or the next one. They made about 12 trades and 12 days. Right. It just kept accumulating assets and it. For a team like Milwaukee, that's what you need to do. And they could turn Evan Mobley into a ton of stuff from somebody else, because Evan Mobley, even though he's not as good as Giannis, he probably has more homes than Giannis for a variety of reasons. So I do think. I do think that that's a winning package to get Giannis if they decide to do it. And, you know, I would understand if they didn't. But again, I'm just going by the logic path of what Dan Gilbert said and knowing how the Cavs operate. Like, Dan Gilbert has never been somebody who's satisfied with just having a nice team. Like, for whatever you want to say about Dan Gilbert, he's always spent money. He's always invested resources. He's always wanted to try to win at the highest level.
- [43:36]
Brian Windhorst
When the Cavs won the championship in 2016, their slogan was all in. And it was Dan Gilbert who coined the slogan.
- [43:46]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, well, and again, there was one team this year that was in the second apron. It was the Cleveland Cavaliers. Right? You're not in the second apron if you're hoping to be an okay team. Like this team was supposed to be good enough. And they were. Very clearly, if you just want to empirically and objectively look at the Cav season, the Cavs were not good enough. Right? They weren't really close to being good enough. So the question is, do you really think just running it back with 37 year old James Harden is going to lead to some dramatically better results? Well, let's be honest, James Harden is not exactly dynamite in the playoffs. Even if, and even if you're talking about him being your third or fourth
- [44:28]
Brian Windhorst
player, one of your big, you know, if, if you're trading Mobley, you're you're going to want to trade him for some defense because the Cavs big problem is perimeter defense.
- [44:39]
Tim Bontemps
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- [46:28]
Brian Windhorst
Harry Douglas here to help you get in on the sweet life with Cotton Candy five Hour Energy. It's that classic throwback cotton candy flavor, but with zero sugar and a five hour energy boost. I keep these with me so I can tackle that sweet tooth with a tasty caffeine kick and no guilty sugary aftermath. Bring on the sweetness with cotton candy 5 hour energy shots. Cotton candy 5 hour energy. Available online at 5 hour energy.com or Amazon. Okay, now I want to discuss the LeBron James aspect of this.
- [47:09]
Tim Bontemps
Who's he again?
- [47:10]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, so this is the name on everyone's lips in Cleveland. They naturally believe that he is a savior for them, even at age 41.
- [47:21]
Tim Bontemps
Why not?
- [47:23]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Now, first off, I just want to say that even if they could get LeBron James for the minimum, and I want to be very clear in the language, but let's just say for the sake of argument, they could get LeBron James essentially for free. That's not solving all of their problems because LeBron is no longer a good defensive player night in and night out. And this team's. One of its biggest problems is its defense. Obviously the attacking of Harden and the attacking of Mitchell and what happened in this series would not be solved by signing LeBron.
- [47:54]
Tim Bontemps
That is correct.
- [47:55]
Brian Windhorst
And so whatever their solution attempt will be, whether it's trading for Giannis or it's making another trade, defense has got to be part of the thought process. So I don't think the Cavs.
- [48:07]
Tim Bontemps
No, go ahead.
- [48:07]
Brian Windhorst
I don't think the Cavs all in move here can be going to get LeBron.
- [48:11]
Tim Bontemps
Fundamentally, I just don't know if you're winning anything with James Harden, Donovan Mitchell anyway because of the severe limitations that's going to cause for you defensively. And that, that I think is really more than anything else. Like it's the position the Cavs are in now. So I get it. But like this was the question I had about this trade going all the way back to the beginning. And frankly it was just a different version of the same problem of having Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell. Right. Like having two guards like that that aren't really going to play defense, it makes it just extraordinarily Difficult to build a good enough team. Now you have Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. They're excellent defensive players. That was sort of the construct of what the Cavs thought would work. But you know, if you look at the Knicks, right, they've got three elite perimeter defenders next to Jalen Brunson, you look at the Thunder, they've got a million elite perimeter defenders. You look at the spurs, they've got all sorts of really good perimeter defenders. Right. Like you look at the Celtics, they've had a lot of really good. They have a lot of really good, versatile perimeter defenders. Like to win at the highest level in the playoffs. It's very hard to win with one way guards and they have two of them, so.
- [49:16]
Brian Windhorst
Right. And LeBron's not a two way perimeter player.
- [49:18]
Tim Bontemps
LeBron at this point is not a two way player either.
- [49:20]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, now let's go down the path that LeBron must go down here in the next few weeks. Number one, he has to decide whether or not he wants to play again. Okay? It looks like he's probably going to, but he has not said that either publicly, nor the people that I talk to. Okay. Number two, his discussion has to be with the Lakers about whether he's going to continue with them. And I will just tell you, until
- [49:44]
Tim Bontemps
you hear the only, the only pause on that. Isn't the first part of that, do the Lakers want to continue with LeBron?
- [49:51]
Brian Windhorst
Exactly.
- [49:51]
Tim Bontemps
I agree, but I mean, I'm just saying they're the ones sort of with the. I think the first lever on that.
- [49:56]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. And from.
- [49:57]
Tim Bontemps
I'm not saying they don't to be clear for aggregators, but I think, you know, they're the ones with the giant cat.
- [50:04]
Brian Windhorst
I'll give the aggregators something right now. Okay?
- [50:07]
Tim Bontemps
Okay. Oh, window. Giving the aggregators things.
- [50:10]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, let me just say, before I say that.
- [50:13]
Tim Bontemps
Got the motions up. This is going to be good.
- [50:15]
Brian Windhorst
Before I say that, let me just say that you have to understand that, you know, the LeBron has to work out his future with the Lakers first before any other future happens. Okay. And from what I am told, the LeBron side is waiting for the Lakers to come to LeBron. Okay. They're not going to go to the Lakers and say we would like. Just like last year, they did not go to the Lakers and say we would like a contract extension. Please. The LeBron side, from what I am told is, would like the Lakers to come and say, LeBron, here is our plan for you or here's what we were offering. And if they're Offering less than the max. Here's why. Because we're going to use this cap space to sign these players, and this is where you slot in. And maybe the.
- [51:12]
Tim Bontemps
Can I interject for a second to ask you a question about this?
- [51:14]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Tim Bontemps
Why would they do that, the LeBron side? Why would that be the position?
- [51:19]
Brian Windhorst
I don't know. That's what I'm told.
- [51:21]
Tim Bontemps
No, I'm asking your opinion. Why would that be the position? I'm not saying you have the answer to that.
- [51:25]
Brian Windhorst
I think everything that's going to happen between now and the draft, no matter what you hear and no matter what LeBron might say on his podcast or on social media or wherever, in any interview, I think all of it's negotiating, of course. Okay. LeBron is negotiating unconventionally, which he's known to do.
- [51:44]
Tim Bontemps
I would agree.
- [51:45]
Brian Windhorst
So. And by the way, I don't think that's controversial. I don't think the players saying they're waiting to hear from the team is a like. I don't think that's an aggressive move.
- [51:53]
Tim Bontemps
I don't think it is, either. I do think, however, that the LeBron side, I think, is in a spot they've really never been in before. Right. Where they don't necessarily control the situation. And they, frankly, have always controlled the situation going back to when LeBron was probably in, what, seventh grade?
- [52:09]
Brian Windhorst
Well, he's going to be unrestricted, so they have some control. But in terms of the salary, the Lakers do control what they're going to offer.
- [52:16]
Tim Bontemps
They have control over the fact that LeBron could choose to just walk and play elsewhere for the minimum or an exception. But in order for LeBron to get paid somewhere where he would, in theory, want to be, they need to work with the Lakers, whether it's to play with the Lakers or play with somebody else. Now, if he's willing to just take the minimum, sure, it doesn't matter. He can just decide in August and do whatever he wants, that'll be fine. But if he wants any more than that, it's going to require some workarounds.
- [52:42]
Brian Windhorst
LeBron has a $58 million cap hold, and a cap hold is a complicated thing, and I don't want to go too far into it. Just know that the Lakers don't actually have cap space until they decide what's going to happen with LeBron. And what I mean by that is they agree to a contract with him for whatever the number is, whether the number is 58 million or the number is 8 million, or they say, LeBron, you and us we're moving on from each other and they renounce his rights. But the Lakers have to deal with LeBron before they do their other business. And even if they end up, even if LeBron says to them, hey, I just don't know where my body is going to be yet. And so, like, I can't make this decision in June, the Lakers are probably going to have to say, we totally respect you. We're going to have to renounce your rights then, because. And we can revisit you coming back on us on a smaller contract. But we can't sit here and wait till August or even July 10th. They got to know around the draft,
- [53:43]
Tim Bontemps
and that's where it's different than it's ever been before. Because in the past, LeBron had the ability to say, now I'm going to decide in August. And everybody would wait. Everybody would wait till August 10th or August 15th or July 15th or July 20th.
- [53:55]
Brian Windhorst
July 9th or 10th. Okay, right.
- [53:56]
Tim Bontemps
Exactly. Whatever the date now.
- [53:58]
Brian Windhorst
So these are very, what we've just laid out there are very delicate, nuanced, complex, negotiation filled days and weeks. Okay, if. And I can't underline this more for the aggregators who botched it again today with me, listen close.
- [54:19]
Tim Bontemps
If don't upset our guy.
- [54:22]
Brian Windhorst
If all of that leads to LeBron saying, I'm ready to move on and it's not going to be with the Lakers, and again, that's past whether he wants to play or not. That's past any negotiation with the Lakers. That's past whatever back and forth they have. If all of those things happen and LeBron entertains other teams, okay, then LeBron must entertain what he's willing to play for. Is he only willing to go where he can be signed and traded so that he would have substantial earnings, you know, that he would not play for $15 million or $6 million or $3 million, which is the minimum, $3.6 million. Is he going to want something else? And if that fails, let's say that, you know, he says to Lakers, okay, let's work on a sign and trade. And you know, they can't do that. Then if, if, if, if, if, if, if, and if he's willing to play for the minimum, okay, then, then you bring in the concept of, well, he could go to the warriors or he'd go to the Heat or he'd go to the Cavs, okay? Cause I'm seeing out there a preponderance
- [55:28]
Tim Bontemps
of just to back up one second, he could go sign with those teams for something Other than the minute they have exceptions where they could sign him on those teams.
- [55:37]
Brian Windhorst
Correct. But yeah, just to be clear, basically when we say he could sign for an exception, there's a mid level exception and the veteran player exception. You know, signing a guy to a minimum.
- [55:49]
Tim Bontemps
Well, there's the tax, mid level, he could sign for about $15 million, about $6 million or the minimum. Those are really the options for the most part.
- [55:56]
Brian Windhorst
The teams that are. He's going to have interest in like a team like the warriors, they don't have the mid level. They don't have 15 million.
- [56:02]
Tim Bontemps
I mean, I think I double check. I think they do. Yeah, they do.
- [56:06]
Brian Windhorst
Then they, but then if they use that, they'd be hard capped and I don't even know if they could.
- [56:10]
Tim Bontemps
Well, but they're, I mean, but I'm just saying the warriors could do that.
- [56:13]
Brian Windhorst
All right. I'm just saying there's a, like, there's a lot of ifs that have to be checked.
- [56:23]
Tim Bontemps
It's an extraordinarily complicated deal for him to get paid real money other than with the Lakers. And frankly, it's complicated for them. Him to get paid real money with the Lakers.
- [56:32]
Brian Windhorst
Okay. And I hear people then say, when I say to them, well, you know, the Cavs can't do much right now. And by the way, maybe The Cavs make four trades in the next six weeks and they all of a sudden have 25 million in cap space.
- [56:47]
Tim Bontemps
Well, but they're not going to have 25 million in cap space. Okay, but, but just, but hold on. Don't even give people that path because they're not going to.
- [56:53]
Brian Windhorst
But I'm just saying, like today they, Today they have $3 million they could give them. That's what they have today. They could have more later, but today that's what they have.
- [57:02]
Tim Bontemps
Sure.
- [57:02]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, And I was just going to say. And again, this is nuance. I'm not saying LeBron won't play for the minimum ever, because this is what happened today. I said, you know, the Cavs can only give LeBron 3 million. And I haven't heard that LeBron's willing to play for 3 million in aggregation. LeBron will not take less money. No, that is not what I said. I said, I said, I haven't heard it. I said, I haven't heard that.
- [57:27]
Tim Bontemps
That's right.
- [57:28]
Brian Windhorst
So we have. There's just a progression that has to happen. And by the way, that progression could happen because what I'm, I tell people in Cleveland, well, the Cavs can only offer3.3 million. And they're like, well, he's a billionaire. And I'm like, okay, I agree with that. I'm not spending his money.
- [57:42]
Tim Bontemps
No.
- [57:43]
Brian Windhorst
The pathway for the Cavs to improve most likely is going to be a trade. And to improve massively is most likely going to be an Evan Mobley trade. And they're not trading Evan Mobley for LeBron James.
- [57:53]
Tim Bontemps
That's correct.
- [57:54]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [57:55]
Tim Bontemps
They're trading for a player that's today better than Donovan Mitchell. And if they can't do that, Evan Mobley will be on the team and maybe they won't be able to do that. To be clear, I'm not guaranteeing that's going to happen. But again, if you look at all the recent teams that have gone on to win the title, they've all made significant moves to get better, whether it's adding Aaron Gordon, and I'm not even
- [58:15]
Brian Windhorst
sure, if I were the Cavs, I would trade Jared Allen for LeBron because this is something that the Laker followers have suggested. Oh, just sign and trade LeBron for Jared Allen. Jared Allen makes 28 million. Like that could be a representative salary for LeBron.
- [58:33]
Tim Bontemps
I better be getting first a first round pick or two if I'm the Cavs in that deal.
- [58:36]
Brian Windhorst
I'm not, I'm not sure I would, I'm not doing that. Like, like what I would say to LeBron if I were the Cavs is LeBron, we've got 3 million for you. That's what we have now. And maybe they make a deal, maybe, maybe they make a Moby deal or maybe they make the hardened deal and maybe they make a Streuss deal. Maybe they get to where they have the taxpayer mid level which is 6 million. Maybe they say, LeBron, we have 6 million for you.
- [59:01]
Tim Bontemps
Well, here's just the real deal of it. Like at the end of the day, James Harden is not as good as LeBron even probably right now, but he does basically what LeBron is going to do for you, more or less. Like, so if you have. And if you have James Harden, who at 37 is not playing much defense, he never did. And you have LeBron James, who this year will be 42 years old and be the oldest player in the league by a couple of years, like, and you have Donovan Mitchell, like again to your point, he is not like LeBron is still a great player, but for the, for the roster the Cavaliers have, he's not the solve to all their problems.
- [59:37]
Brian Windhorst
And let me just say one last thing. Obviously Harden had an up and down playoffs, he actually did have.
- [59:46]
Tim Bontemps
That's what's happened for the last 14 years in a row.
- [59:50]
Brian Windhorst
And I interacted with people in Cleveland who were like, just cut him, get his money off of the books, move on number one. They can't do that because there was an understanding when they traded for him, they were going to take care of him. Otherwise he would invade his no trade clause. But here's one thing that's important, and let's say the Cavs did do that. It's not like they would have the 40 million that they could then go spend.
- [60:16]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah. It's not the NFL salary cap where it's a hard cap and the money just returned.
- [60:21]
Brian Windhorst
They're so far over the cap that if they said goodbye to James Harden, they would then not have the functional ability to replace him.
- [60:30]
Tim Bontemps
They would just lose a good player.
- [60:31]
Brian Windhorst
They would lose a good player and they would lose an asset.
- [60:35]
Tim Bontemps
That's right.
- [60:35]
Brian Windhorst
So whatever anybody wants to say, want to get off their takes on James Harden, he is going to be resigning with the Cavs.
- [60:41]
Tim Bontemps
Well, and also, James Harden was not brought to the Cavs to be the guy to push them to the NBA Finals. He was supposed to be an accentuating piece to the guy who was supposed to push them to the NBA Finals. Just like he was with Kawhi Leonard with the Clippers. Just like he was with Joel Embiid with the Sixers. Right.
- [60:59]
Brian Windhorst
And Durant and Kyrie as well.
- [61:01]
Tim Bontemps
Yes, well, yes, to go even farther back, but like the last couple teams, it's all been the same thing. Right. And at the end of the day, the same problem has existed in all those places. The best player was not good enough. And at the end of the day, Donovan Mitchell was not good enough. And that's where you get back to the question the Cavs have about their roster and why we're talking about all this stuff to begin with.
- [61:20]
Brian Windhorst
Okay. That was an extended time there in Cav's corner. McMahon's back.
- [61:25]
Tim Bontemps
Oh, yes. Brian had to get through his feelings. McMahon.
- [61:29]
Jared McMahon
I'm gonna miss Cav's corner.
- [61:32]
Brian Windhorst
It'll be back.
- [61:32]
Tim Bontemps
Cav's corner is gonna be back in the offseason. It's gonna be a busy offseason.
- [61:35]
Brian Windhorst
I have important data. Important data. The distance between gate F15 and gate B6 in Minneapolis airport is 1.1 miles, 1.8 kilometers.
- [61:45]
Jared McMahon
I. I was actually excited for you to. To talk nerdy to us.
- [61:49]
Tim Bontemps
Did you get ride, did you get
- [61:50]
Brian Windhorst
a ride in the Porsche over there?
- [61:51]
Jared McMahon
No, no, I walked it Travel whining.
- [61:54]
Brian Windhorst
It says it's a 15 minute brisk walk, but you guys know I don't walk briskly.
- [62:01]
Tim Bontemps
No, you don't.
- [62:02]
Brian Windhorst
How long.
- [62:03]
Jared McMahon
How long of a shuffle is it?
- [62:05]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, it was longer than 20 minutes. Probably 26 minutes. It took me. I might have stopped on the way once or twice.
- [62:12]
Tim Bontemps
It was a brisk shuffle.
- [62:13]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. All right, so just, you know, props to me. And then I did the podcast.
- [62:17]
Tim Bontemps
Props to window. Props to window for making it home.
- [62:20]
Brian Windhorst
Got up first class seats, Went to bed at 1. Something in the morning after Scott Van Pelt on last night's podcast. Oh, got up at five to do get up. Did MBA today.
- [62:32]
Jared McMahon
Okay.
- [62:33]
Brian Windhorst
1.8 kilometers between gates.
- [62:35]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah. Real line work.
- [62:37]
Brian Windhorst
Then get back here. And then now we're doing this again.
- [62:40]
Jared McMahon
Did you nap on the plane? We need the full windy sleep up for you.
- [62:43]
Brian Windhorst
You know what, seriously, like, McCain hit that three with like, like that put them up like I was watching the game and McCain hit that like last three that put them up like, I don't. It was double digits. It was like. I don't know how much time was left. Like four, three minutes maybe. During the timeout I fell asleep and I woke back up and the game was over and I was like, well, I guess. I guess the thunder won.
- [63:03]
Jared McMahon
You missed Plumlee's minutes, but not much else.
- [63:05]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, well, I gotta go back and watch them. All right. Thank you so much, our producers, for staying up so late overnight to Mark, Miles, Tucker and of course Jackson. Thank you to McMahon and bottemps. Thank you for watching and listening to hoop collective. We'll talk to you later this week.
- [63:21]
Jared McMahon
Adios, amigos. Calling all sightseers and selfie takers, welcome to Texas, where a day at our hiking trails will lead to a lifetime of memories and family. Road trips become family legends where thrill seekers make a splash into spring fed pools and picky eaters will clean their plates. This is your invitation to visit Texas and see it for yourself. Visit traveltexas.com and plan your family's trip today. Let's Texas.