NBA Finals Game 4 Reaction: Thunder Come Up Clutch

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective Episode: NBA Finals Game 4 Reaction: Thunder Come Up Clutch
Release Date: June 14, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Hoop Collective, hosted by Tim Bontemps of ESPN and featuring Kendrick Perkins, the discussion centers around the thrilling conclusion of NBA Finals Game 4, where the Oklahoma City Thunder secured a pivotal 111-104 victory on the road against the Indiana Pacers. The conversation delves into key performances, strategic adjustments, officiating impacts, and prospects for the remainder of the series.

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Game Recap

Tim Bontemps opens the discussion by summarizing the game's crucial moments:

"[...] The Thunder were down by eight points going into the fourth quarter, but their MVP, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, led a stunning comeback to secure the win" (00:59).

Kendrick Perkins emphasizes the intensity of the game:

"What a basketball game." (00:57)
"This game was an absolute war." (14:19)

The Thunder's ability to withstand Indiana's early dominance and execute a late-game resurgence was a focal point, showcasing their resilience and strategic depth.

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Key Players' Performances

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA)

SGA was instrumental in turning the game around in the fourth quarter, scoring 15 points in the final period. Perkins highlights:

"Shai had 15 points in the fourth quarter and he brought them home." (01:49)
"The MVP took him home." (01:15)

SGA's performance was not just about scoring; his ability to maintain energy for the decisive moments was crucial. His strategic minutes management by Coach Mike D’Antoni ensured he was fresh when it mattered most.

Jalen Williams

Despite recording zero assists, Williams played a vital role:

"Jalen Williams brought the ball up a series high 25 times in Game 4." (19:33)
"He was playing essentially point guard and trigger man for a lot of the first three quarters." (03:53)

His selflessness in handling the ball allowed Shai to conserve energy for the final push. Their synergy on the court was pivotal in overcoming the Pacers' early advantage.

Alex Caruso

After a subpar Game 3, Caruso delivered a standout performance:

"Alex Caruso had several massive plays, getting to the rim and scoring... seven for nine shooting with five steals." (10:18)
"He was minus 15 on Wednesday night. He was plus 12 tonight." (13:40)

Caruso's efficiency and defensive prowess were key factors in the Thunder's victory, highlighting his adaptability and growth throughout the series.

Chet Holmgren

Holmgren's defensive efforts were crucial, especially considering his injured ankle:

"Chet Holmgren played an absolutely vital fourth quarter, switching onto Halliburton and forcing key plays." (09:13)
"He had 15 rebounds in this game." (09:16)

His ability to contribute effectively despite physical setbacks underscored his importance to the team's defensive strategy.

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Strategy and Coaching Insights

Coach Mike D’Antoni's approach to managing player minutes paid dividends:

"He kept Shay's minutes down just enough that he had juice at the end and he got it done." (03:12)

By adjusting the starting lineup and strategically resting key players, the Thunder ensured their stars were primed for critical late-game actions. This flexibility and willingness to adapt were highlighted as essential elements of their playoff run.

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Pacers' Performance and Challenges

The Pacers showcased formidable defense and physicality throughout the game:

"The Pacers were coming at them all over the place, knocking down threes... plus 27 from the three-point line." (02:14)

Despite this, Indiana struggled with shooting efficiency and committing numerous fouls, particularly in the second half:

"The Pacers scored 33 free throws in favor of the Thunder's 38." (16:18)

Their aggressive defensive tactics, while initially effective, ultimately led to valuable scoring opportunities for the Thunder through free throws and turnovers.

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Officiating Controversies

Officiating played a notable role in the game's outcome, with both teams feeling the pressure of numerous calls:

"Tonight's officiating was not as clean." (05:51)
"There were a lot of fouls called in this game both ways." (05:28)

Tim Bontemps pointed out the increased scrutiny compared to previous games, while Perkins acknowledged the contentious nature of the calls but maintained they didn't solely determine the game's result.

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Injuries and Their Impact

Injuries to key players added complexity to the Thunder's and Pacers' strategies:

"Chet Holmgren played on a clearly gimpy ankle." (09:02)
"Jalen Williams had two vicious falls in the fourth quarter." (09:47)

These injuries tested the depth and adaptability of both teams, with the Thunder managing to mitigate the impact through strategic substitutions and robust bench performances.

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Bench Contributions

The Thunder's bench emerged as a significant strength, particularly:

"Alex Caruso had a 20-point game, 7 for 9 shooting with five steals." (10:17)
"Ben McCandless and others provided crucial support, maintaining the team's momentum." (13:10)

Their ability to consistently contribute underlined the Thunder's depth and the effectiveness of their coaching rotations.

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Thunder's Playoff Resilience and Strategy

Perkins lauds the Thunder's resilience and adaptive strategies throughout the playoffs:

"The Thunder are the ultimate process team, always learning and evolving." (21:31)

Their ability to bounce back from setbacks, learn from previous games, and implement tactical adjustments has been pivotal in their impressive 18-2 playoff record.

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Looking Ahead: Series Predictions

As the series intensifies, both hosts express cautious optimism about the outcome:

Tim Bontemps anticipates a potential seven-game series, citing the Pacers' consistency and the Thunder's ability to adjust: "My only strong feeling is that it's going to go seven because the Pacers have played 39 games without losing two in a row." (18:51)

Kendrick Perkins remains confident in the Thunder's strategic prowess but acknowledges the Pacers' relentless competitiveness: "The Pacers have shown that there's not separation between these teams." (33:05)

Both agree that the upcoming games will be critical in determining the series' ultimate victor, with key performances expected from stars like Tyrese Halliburton and Pascal Siakam.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a mutual acknowledgment of the series' intense and high-stakes nature. Both Tim Bontemps and Kendrick Perkins express enthusiasm for the upcoming games, emphasizing the series' potential to deliver some of the most memorable moments in NBA Finals history. Their in-depth analysis underscores the Thunder's extraordinary playoff journey and the Pacers' unwavering determination, setting the stage for an electrifying continuation of the championship showdown.

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Notable Quotes

• Tim Bontemps: "The MVP took him home." (01:15)
• Kendrick Perkins: "The entire game felt like the Thunder were down 20." (02:17)
• Tim Bontemps: "Shai had 35 points, 20, 22 in Boston..." (17:21)
• Kendrick Perkins: "The Thunder did to the Pacers what the Pacers have done over and over again in the playoffs, relentlessly close and wear down their opponent." (07:32)
• Tim Bontemps: "The Pacers, as you know, are 14-0 in the playoffs. When they score 110 or 111, they're often up by six." (15:01)

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Note: All timestamps correspond to specific moments in the transcript provided and are included to reference the original discussion points accurately.

Transcript

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[Tim Bontemps]

Foreign welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA Finals moments after game four ended here 111104 victory by the Oklahoma City Thunder on the road. Tim Bontemps will be joined in a minute, I think by Kendrick Perkins when he comes over here. If he comes over here.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Most Importantly, no Tim McMahon.

[Tim Bontemps]

No Tim McMahon. Thank God. All right.

[Kendrick Perkins]

What a basketball game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. So in the second round against the Thunder. I'm sorry, against the Nuggets, the Thunder were down 2:1. They were in Denver, I believe it was a nine point game, eight point.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Game, down eight, going fourth.

[Tim Bontemps]

The MVP took them home. There were other players making other plays, but the MVP took them home in that game. In the fourth quarter of this game, down seven, down seven three one. They're not coming back from three one. The MVP took him home. We'll talk about why he took him home. But the MVP brought him home. There were other stuff going on. Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren, there's a million things.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Alex Caruso, million things.

[Tim Bontemps]

But Shea had 15 points in the fourth quarter and he brought them home. And he brought the series back to okc2.2.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Look, I mean he. I talked a lot the last couple days on TV about how this was the defining moment of the career of Shay Gillis Alexander. We have talked a ton about what it will mean if this Thunder team wins this series and what it'll mean for Shay Gillis Alexander if he wins the series and likely wins series mvp. And the three pointer hit on the wing right over here and the baseline jumper, he hit basically right where we're sitting right to put the Thunder ahead for good.

[Tim Bontemps]

Like totally off balance. Like somehow got on balance.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Well, no, he, he did the exact move he's done all season. He got exactly to the spot he wanted in the mid range. He got Aaron Neesmith on off balance. And it doesn't look like he's on balance. That's the most comfortable shot. Jacobs Alexander shoots. And this game, it felt the entire game like the Thunder were down 20. The Pacers were coming at him all over the place. They were knocking down threes all over the place. I think it was plus 27 from the three point line. Fourth Indiana, they dominated the game in a lot of respects. Felt like they should have been up 15 or 20. But much like Indiana's done a lot in these playoffs and like they did in game one, the Thunder hung around. They hung around. They hung around. They stuck in it. Chad Holmgren got some big buckets early in the fourth quarter. Caruso, Jalen Williams, like you said. But they set it up for the mvp. And if you go back to game three, what did we talk about? Shay was gassed at the end of the game, right?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Mark Dagnol changes up his rotation a lot. We'll get into that. But the biggest thing was.

[Tim Bontemps]

I want to talk about that right now.

[Kendrick Perkins]

He kept Shay's minutes down just enough that he had juice at the end and he got it done.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right. I want to talk about a stat. This is a very telling stat. And it's going to seem like it's a bad stat, but I think it's a very telling stat. Okay. Shay, Gilles Alexander had zero assists in this game. And you're going to see stats about like, boy, that's the first time that's happened since 2020 and all that stuff. And obviously he probably could have got an assist or two. But let me tell you why the zero assist is important, because what they did, as you just referred to, they took the ball out of his hands. It was Jalen Williams who was playing essentially point guard and trigger man for. For a lot of the first three quarters.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

So that Shea had more energy at the end of the game. Yes, they took, they took. They played him, I think, two fewer minutes in the first half. So, yes, they definitely did that. They changed their starting lineup, but they kept the stress off of Shea and that is why at the end, he had more energy.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yep.

[Tim Bontemps]

Tyrese Halliburton looked a little tired in this game. I thought Pascal Siakam was absolutely unbelievable for two and a half quarters. And then his energy meter just went down. He did not make. He made like 25 plays in the first two and a half. First two and three quarters. He did not make a really big play down the stretch. I feel like he ran out of gas. I feel like Halliburton ran out of gas. And one other thing I'm going to say. Niece Smith fouls out. Aaron Neesmith fouls out with what, maybe like two, three minutes left on a loose ball foul. There's a lot of things that Benedict Matheran can do, okay. But you don't ideally want Benedict Mather and at the end of the game because he's not a stable player.

[Kendrick Perkins]

No, he can have games like the last game when he had 27 and he could have games like this game where he's making mistakes left and right and he had a lot of mistakes.

[Tim Bontemps]

So he misses three. He misses three free throws and he has two fouls on inbounds plays away from the play.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Fouls. And we're free. Free throws.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's five points. Yep, it's five points. I mean he's a 90% free throw shooter. That's five points. And, and he. That Matheran was in the game because Neesmith fouled out and Neesmith fouled out because. Because Shea got the free throws. All these free.

[Kendrick Perkins]

There were a lot of fouls called in this game both ways.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was oak. Look, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[Kendrick Perkins]

No, you're fine.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Indiana fans are right now in the streets screaming blood and murder about, about the fouls.

[Kendrick Perkins]

They have I think some merit.

[Tim Bontemps]

I agree.

[Kendrick Perkins]

They got. There were a lot. There were some 50, 50 calls in this game that went against them.

[Tim Bontemps]

So how I'll put it, I like, I liked the officiating for the first three games. I really didn't have a single complaint. Tonight's officiating was not as clean.

[Kendrick Perkins]

This is the first time in the series we're talking at all about the officiating.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right. And, and it wasn't by the way, it wasn't all Scott Foster. I didn't like the, how demonstrative Scott was at times and that little bit worried me because like oh man, he's getting his energy up. But it wasn't all Scott.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Scott Foster with three little T's as our guy McMahon likes to say. Okay, we may have said to each other while we were sitting watching the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Game together, but the game was decided by Shaggy Alexander. That's all I'm going to say.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Well, and listen you, you mentioned the no assist for Shea, right? Like look, the Thunders offense was awful for most of this game. They, they only had 10 assists in the game for so much of the right. They went 3 for 17 from 3 plus 24 for Indiana from the three point line. And for much of the game they, the Thunder couldn't get into anything. It was sort. There were a lot of 0 pass possessions, 1 pass possessions. The Thunder, you know, really getting stuck in the mud. McMahon and I kept saying are they going to start moving the ball at some point? Indiana's pressure on Defense was relentless. They got into the Thunder over and over again. They forced Jalen Williams into an eight second violation. The Thunder were constantly throwing the ball all over, all over the place and just never felt like they got out of second gear the whole game. And that was why. Down seven. I just kept thinking about that fourth quarter of that Nuggets game. And I've been saying for a month, I thought they won the title that day. And look, obviously I think now if the Thunder do go on to win the series, and it's a long way from being over, and the Pacers, the last two games have dictated play a lot more than I thought they could. But if they do go on to win the title, it's going to be those 24 minutes. The 12 tonight.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Kendrick Perkins]

And the 12 in Denver, when, as you said, the MVP of the league got it done when it mattered. That's going to be what we're going to think back on about the Thunder playoff run.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, so before the game, even when I was sitting here the other night, I said I thought the winner of tonight's game would, would win the series. I'm going to step back from that because I do think that the Pacers to me have shown that their best is every bit as good as a thunderstorm.

[Kendrick Perkins]

What an unbelievable story this Pacer team has been. They have. They the. The level of respect I have for the Pacers having. I mean, I covered the entire conference finals. I was home watching the entire first two rounds as my son arrived and I was getting to watch all these games at home. And they, they've just been unbelievable in these playoffs and the way they played in these last two games, the Thunder were completely on their heels. The 68 win team, incredible point differential, probably the deepest team in the league, the MVP of the league. They looked out of sorts for most of the last two games, but when it came down to it, we've talked all playoffs about the Pacers stealing games, right? The Pacers stole game one. The Thunder stole back the series by stealing game four because they had no business winning this game. But they found a way and as a result, now they have home court advantage. And like they did against Denver, it's a best of three with two games at home. They obviously are the favorites to win.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, a couple of things I'm interested to see how. Well, first off, let me just say about Chet Holmgren. Chet Holmgren's fourth quarter was tremendous.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Massive while playing on clearly a gimpy ankle.

[Tim Bontemps]

So. Yeah, well, that's what I want to talk about in a second, so. But he's switching out onto Halliburton and staying in front of him.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Forced a key airball late on Halliburton when he got the setback he wanted late.

[Tim Bontemps]

He had 15 rebounds in this game.

[Kendrick Perkins]

How many offensive. Well, they had four offensive rebounds, including two or three on dunks in the fourth quarter early on to help the Thunder get back in the game.

[Tim Bontemps]

They had the Thunder at four offensive.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Rebounds in the fourth quarter.

[Tim Bontemps]

They scored on all of them. They scored a possession on all of them. That was enormous. So. But Chet played an absolutely vital fourth quarter. I wonder how his ankle is going to feel on Monday. And I'm also kind of wondering about how Jalen Williams is going to feel. He had.

[Kendrick Perkins]

He had two vicious falls.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, my God. In the fourth quarter. And he. And he jumped up like it was nothing. But the fourth quarter fall, like, that's.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I mean, that second one, he was almost like, level with the basketball. He fell on his back.

[Tim Bontemps]

I couldn't believe how he fell. So I. I'm a little interested to see how those guys feel.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Pretty good for the Thunder that they've got two days off.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Say that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes. Also, Caruso, after really. Caruso played a really substandard game in Game 3.

[Kendrick Perkins]

He was amazing in this game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I mean, he had several massive plays, getting to the rim and scoring. When he was score.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was like a huge score for.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Them, seven for nine. I mean, look, we talked about it last game, right? You had Benedict Matheran with the crazy game off the bench tonight. Caruso, 20 points, 7 for 9, shooting five steals. Right? And at one point early in the fourth quarter, the Thunder are making a run. Caruso makes a beautiful cut to the basket. Looks like he's got a wide open layup. The ball goes right through his hands. Obi Toppin goes down and dunks the ball. All of a sudden, the Thunder are back down seven. The paces are going crazy. The crowd's into it. You think, man, that might have been it. Right? But he was in there late. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Tim Bontemps]

Foreign.

[Kendrick Perkins]

By the way, just as a reminder, Josh Giddy for Alex Caruso. Pretty good trade. Pretty good trade for the Thunder.

[Tim Bontemps]

You're just calling yourself back on that.

[Kendrick Perkins]

No, it's just. It's just a reminder that the Thunder last year were playing Josh Giddey in moments like that and this year so.

[Tim Bontemps]

Finished the game well right?

[Kendrick Perkins]

They've got Alex Caruso and that's why they got him for moments like that and he was unbelievable.

[Advertisement Speaker]

He was minus.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was minus 15 on Wednesday night. He was plus 12 tonight and it.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Felt like a plus 12.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh yeah, by the way, Siak or Holmgren was the best plus. I said 15 rebounds. He had 14. Holmgren was best. Plus minus. Well, and look, the starters.

[Kendrick Perkins]

One other thing. Chad is. Chad is awesome. Right. I would really like Chad to stop trying to drive into the lane. These drives to nowhere have not been good for him or for the Thunder.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, he. He gets, you know, it's tough to go over the top of him, but it's kind of easy to stop him.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Well, Miles Turner is just a really good rim protector. He's trying to go at Miles Turner.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, he runs into things and he's. He's not. He's just not. He's not built for that.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Also, he took a hellacious shot to the shin.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I mean, he's had a. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was getting beat up a lot. I mean, everyone was getting beat up a lot. This. This game was an absolute war. And you knew it was going to be a war because the Pacers. Look, the Pacers haven't really been talked about in the same way as Thunder, like throughout the playoffs. Andrew Nemhardt and Aaron Neesmith have played like the Thunder in that, as we've talked about, the Thunder committed a foul in every possession and so do those two dudes. You saw it last year round. Jalen Brunson's, you know, headbutting Nemhard in the head. He's getting mad about Neesmith. Those guys are banging on you every second of the game. And this game was just. There were bodies everywhere. There are guys limping everywhere. And like you said, by the end of the game, it really was a war of attrition. And it was Shai that pulled it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Out a couple of things. The Pacers, as you know, are 14, 0 in the playoffs. When they score 110 or 111, they're owing 6. Now when they don't, obviously built on their offense. The Thunder scored 111 tonight. If the Pacers had scored 111, they would at least gotten to overtime.

[Kendrick Perkins]

And by the way, Tyrese Halliburton, when he gets to 20 points, I believe they're 33. Four got to 18.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right. And another thing, the team that's won the bench scoring has won each game. Happened tonight again, the. The Thunder behind Caruso's 20. Also, one of the things that happened with the. With the lineup change, putting the two bigs in the starting lineup, that cleared some more minutes for Kendrick Williams. Kendrick Williams has been pretty good the last two series.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yes, and.

[Tim Bontemps]

And he played some impactful minutes tonight.

[Kendrick Perkins]

He's a really good player that doesn't get a lot of shine because obviously these guys are the deepest team in the league. But he would be a core rotation player of basically every other team in the league. And they can deploy him whenever they want. And he steps in and makes plays. He did again tonight.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I also want to say that for as much I know there's going to be complaining within the Pacers fans about the officiating. The free throws were 38, 33 in favor of the Thunder. And they. Foul. They took some fouls at the end.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yeah, no, look, I mean, there was. The officiating was sort of all over the place. There were a lot of calls. But it's not why the game was won or lost. The game was won or lost because the Thunder did to the Pacers what the Pacers have done over and over again in the playoffs, which is relentlessly close and wear down their opponent. And I still can't really believe they did it. It certainly felt like their season was going to be hanging on by a thread. And, you know, we've been fortunate enough to cover a lot of playoff games. And I mean, I was thinking about Game 6 in OKC and that fourth quarter from Klay Thompson. I mean, there's a lot of games like that where you get to the final quarter or the final half of a game like this with big stakes. We talked about on the pod today, these games, the favorite team on the road in game six or game four to either tie the series or avoid elimination. That game six was the same thing with Clay. These are when some of the greatest moments in the history of the league have happened. You were there for LeBron in 2012 in Boston in Game 6 if they win the series. That Che Gillis Alexander sequence that's going to go in his all time highlight.

[Tim Bontemps]

Kind of reminds me of. So Shea had 35.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

20, 22 in Boston. Celtics are ahead two one.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yep. Another one.

[Tim Bontemps]

Warriors are the favorite team, the home court team. Steph has 43 in game four. Swings the series that ended in six. I don't know. I don't know. I'm. I don't actually have a good feel. Now if, you know, if the Thunder had won this game, like with a. With a. Emphatically, I would have felt differently because the Thunder outplayed them the first two.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yeah, I mean, look, I'm done. I'm done counting out the Pacers, but I agree. But that being said, this felt like the chance, like when you have a chance to put a team like the Thunder and you Put your foot on their throat. You can't let them off the mat. You just can't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Seven points with 10 minutes.

[Kendrick Perkins]

And that's been. And you've talked about it a lot. The key to Indiana's run through the playoffs has been stealing a game in every series. The one time they gave a game back was when they gave back game three here against the Knicks. Right. When Carl towns matched the 20, Indiana scored with 20 of his own. The thing was, though, Indiana had already stole game one with the shot by Halberton at the end. And you could argue they stole game two when Siakam had 39. Rest of the Pacers didn't do much.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I wouldn't say they stole it, but they were up two breaks, right?

[Kendrick Perkins]

So they had one to give back and they had game four left. This one, this was the chance to hold home court, have three shots to win one. I mean, I'm not, I'm not ruling them out. They've showed me a ton.

[Tim Bontemps]

But I don't know, at this point, my only, my only strong feeling is that it's going to go seven because the Pacers, you know, it feels like the Denver series. The pacers have played 39 games, I think 39, 40 games without losing two in a row. Okay. So, you know, I'm not going to assume they're going to lose.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I'm going to assume they're going to.

[Tim Bontemps]

Lose Monday or three in a row, for that matter.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

And then the, the, the show that to me again. Jackson.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I got it. So I asked, I asked Jackson to have this ready. So Jaylen Williams brought.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hold on, we'll do that in a second because I don't want to lose track of this.

[Kendrick Perkins]

O.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Thunder are 18 and 2 after a loss now, 60 in the playoffs.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

So. All right, well, what was that stat?

[Kendrick Perkins]

The stat is Jalen Williams brought the ball up a series high 25 times in game four. Ask Jax to do that in the first quarter because I'm not sure Shea brought it up once in the first quarter, at least until late in the. Late in it when Jalen was out of the game. I mean, it was like you said, it was a clearly intentional move by the Thunder to try to make sure that he didn't initially get worn out as the game went on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Initially I didn't like it because I was like, damn, the, the Thunder are like changing everything to deal with the Pacers. Like, you know, play your game. Play your 68 win game. But, you know, they are, you know, got it done. I will say this. They're reacting to what they're seeing. Like they're rolling their sleeves up after every game, and they're reacting to what they see.

[Kendrick Perkins]

And I. I'll never forget it. This is a couple years ago now, but I asked. I think it was last spring. I asked Mark Daydalt in Philadelphia. They're playing, playing the Sixers, thinking, like, March or April later in the season. And I asked them about how they change their lineups all the time during the regular season. Right? Like, NBA players are creatures of habit. They like to know when they're coming in the game. They like to know a rhythm and a routine and know what they're going to do and how they're going to get their shots and what they're going to do. Right? The Thunder are the absolute antithesis of that. They're. They're playing different guys or sitting guys, some games, they're starting different lineups all the time. And I asked him, like, what? Like, how do you get your guys to buy into that? And his response was, look, our goal is to try to win in the playoffs. And you see all the time, teams get in the playoffs and they make changes, and their players aren't ready for it because they've done it one way the whole year, and then it completely upends them. Right? We're testing stuff and trying stuff all the time. So when we get to this point of the year, if we try something new, everyone just rolls with it because we've been doing it the whole time. You don't see a lot of teams do that, but in a moment like this, with their backs absolutely against the wall. Yeah, they tried a lot of stuff. Some of it worked. Isaiah Hartenstein had a pretty rough game, but he was good. In the fourth quarter, you know, they changed Shay's rotation completely up. He always plays the whole first quarter. He came out halfway through the first and the third.

[Tim Bontemps]

They brought him back in. They, like. They took him out.

[Kendrick Perkins]

They did double. They did. They gave him multiple subs in each half to make sure he was ready to go at the end of the game. They even got him about a minute in the fourth quarter of this game. 40, 38, 45 seconds, something like that. Again, making sure he would have enough to be there at the end. And that takes a lot of confidence in knowing that you're going to trust the process you have. The Thunder are the ultimate process team, and it's a big part, I think, of why they pulled this one out.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, one more thing. To say about Jalen Williams. So this was an absolute monster performance from him.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Incredible.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was 11 of 11 at the line. Shay and Jalen 21, 21.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I mean, look, on the road.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, come on, man.

[Kendrick Perkins]

We've talked so much about Jalen Williams, right? Can he do it in these moments? He was unbelievable in Game 4 in Minnesota, and that was a different situation. They were up in the series. Obviously they lost game three big. But that, it's one thing if you're up to one trying to go up three one. Their season's on the line. And for much of the game it was Jalen Williams by himself carrying this team along.

[Tim Bontemps]

He had, I think a 32 point game in Denver in that game four maybe.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I think it was game five.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay, that's one of those games. I think it was in anyway.

[Kendrick Perkins]

He had a huge shot at the end of game four. He hit the three on the wing then I think he had a big game five.

[Tim Bontemps]

But look, regardless, I think those games are on the road anyway. He has two 30 point road games in the playoffs and this one 27. But it was.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I mean, he's been, he's been. He was unbelievable. I mean, he's, he's answering the bell and like you said, he's handling the point most of the game. He's playing defense at the other end, making big plays, being physical, getting to the rim, making some sick moves. I mean, he was, he was absolutely unbelievable in this game. This game was just great. Yeah, it was awesome. Tyrese Halpern was making great plays. Every drive he got to the rim felt like a circus shot.

[Tim Bontemps]

First off, there's guys all over the floor, everywhere. There's guys just sprawling all over the place. And the one thing I really like about watching these two teams play, they, you know, obviously there's individual situations where this is not true, but they're playing smart. Oh, it was a high iq, super high IQ team. High iq.

[Advertisement Speaker]

Series happening.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yes.

Doing like just super high level stuff. All these back cuts, changing rotations, changing coverages, making it harder on the other team. You know, totally switching up what you're doing to try to throw them off. And we've seen throughout this series, at times the Pacers have looked completely on the back foot, times the Thunder have looked completely on the back foot. And I mean, it's. I mean, we talked a lot about it. We thought this was going to be a really fun series. It's been awesome. It's just been so, so awesome to watch.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think, I think we might have Missed Perk.

[Kendrick Perkins]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

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[Kendrick Perkins]

Perk's busy. He's got things going on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Perk, by the way, I just want you to know Perk has said to me like four times in the last month, when am I coming on the podcast? And I'm like, perk. Cuz like 2 years ago perk was.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Supposed to just get rid of McMahon and have perk. It'd be great.

[Tim Bontemps]

Two years ago, like Perk was supposed to be on the podcast. And like then he's like, and he never showed for one game.

[Kendrick Perkins]

So I remember.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, so I'm like, you know, there's.

[Kendrick Perkins]

A reason why we kept saying we'll see who the guests are for.

[Tim Bontemps]

And so.

[Advertisement Speaker]

But he was, he was on me.

[Tim Bontemps]

He was like, well, what about, come on, you got to have me on. You got to have.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Everybody wants to be on the. The number one podcast, the who Collective.

[Tim Bontemps]

And so I checked with them. I said, perk, you're gonna come on, right? Yeah. And then he walked out here a second ago.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I just saw him. I shook his hand on the way over here.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, he's like, all right, I'll be back in just a minute. He didn't come back. You know, what are you gonna do?

[Kendrick Perkins]

At least my man's out here.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't even know where he's at.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I don't know.

Well, he's greeting the people.

[Tim Bontemps]

Where is he? Oh.

[Kendrick Perkins]

It'S all right. He's got things going on.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's talking to Thunder personnel. He's got to make sure his tickets are okay for game five. All right. Thank you, Mr. Bontemps.

[Kendrick Perkins]

You're welcome.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you to Rafa and Jackson and Blair, our producers. Thank you for listening and watching the Hoop Collective. We're back with a podcast that comes out on Monday. I think McMahon reserved our table at the Tipsy Tiki.

[Kendrick Perkins]

You don't say. Yeah, he kind of likes going there.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, McMahon last week when we recorded the Tipsy Tiki, it was a weekend, but it was a Saturday, Saturday afternoon. And we wrapped at about 4:30, about 4:25. And McMahon's tie was off and the was on his table at about 4:32 I think.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I think it was about 4:28.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, he previously, he like, like gave the nod to bring it over.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Didn't even know. He just, Just looked. Yeah, just looked and it was ready.

[Tim Bontemps]

And he stayed there for quite some time, I believe.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I mean, listen, McMahon. McMahon knows his way around Bricktown and.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, it's here comes, here comes the big man. Some. I, we. We. We like stretched it out. We stretched.

[Kendrick Perkins]

We did. Hello, Perk. How you doing, Perk?

[Tim Bontemps]

We've had, We've said everything we're going to say.

[Advertisement Speaker]

That's a nice tie by the way.

[Tim Bontemps]

Today. Okay. Did you buy a bunch of ties? Cuz you're going to be on the road till game seven.

[Kendrick Perkins]

No, I'm going home.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, that's right. You go home. All right, so Bon Temps. And I said all we're going to say. What are you going to say? What do you say about this game? I agree for the Big Three, this.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Was a game that. This was a legacy moment.

No question.

Shed hall went defensively in the fourth quarter. J Dub rising to the occasion. First, second, third quarter and SGA taking them home. And that damn Alex Caruso, like, they just kept chipping away. They kept weathering the storm from the first quarter, second quarter, third quarter, they kept weathering the storm. And I told Malika up there, I said, malika, these first three minutes of this fourth, go tell me everything I need to know. And all of a sudden they came.

Out firing game was tied by the end of the first three minutes of the fourth quarter.

[Tim Bontemps]

There was a moment in the third quarter where I think maybe they pushed it to 10, maybe, and got double digits. And the Thunder called timeout. And it was like, this is a huge moment. This is their season. And they got it back to seven, which, look, that's not great, but it could have been 15, 18. And they got it back.

[Kendrick Perkins]

They got it back. And look, I thought Coach Dad, I thought Kimberly Williams, yeah, he only played, what, 14 minutes or something like that, 11 minutes. But they were impactful. They were impactful. I thought. I thought. I noticed also why Coach Dagno wasn't high on that big lineup. It don't really work against them. Think it work in spurts. But Luke Dortz, too, the pressure, the fighting over screens, again, that this was one of those wins where the Thunder, like, you get on the plane and you can exhale and be like, man, we really have together.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. And I also thought we were talking. We already talked about it. But they saved Shay's energy for the fourth quarter.

[Kendrick Perkins]

They did. He did a great job of subbing them in and out. What J Dub was the prom. He basically played the point all night long.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I thought he did an outstanding job. The thing that I noticed about the Thunder, if you look at them throughout, if you look at their past throughout this postseason, they always bounce back. They bounce back for a reason, because they're a team of film. We got to remember this is a young team that. That watch a lot of film and they grow. They're learning on the spot. So once they. Shay said it the other day, we lose a game, I watch it and then I let it go. I learned from it and I let it go. And that stuck with me. And I knew they was going to come out and learn from the mistakes. They still had a few careless hurts, turnovers, but they still did some. Some great things that they didn't do in game three.

18 two after losses for a reason.

They said three for 17 from the three and one game. Crazy three for 17. Like, they're not going.

[Tim Bontemps]

It hasn't happened in a finals game in 15 years. Happened with the Lakers.

[Kendrick Perkins]

They're not going to shoot this poorly again, in my opinion.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would Agree.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Pace is losing a game at home plus 24 from the three point line is tough.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I agree. That's what you're saying. Bontem said it. If you're the Pacers now, look, there's a lot to go but like they're up by seven at home to go up three one fourth quarter, that's tough, man.

[Kendrick Perkins]

It's a tough one to swallow, I think. I think if I look at this roster though, I think Kenri Williams earned more minutes. Case and Wallace haven't been there, you know.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, they had to pull them. They had to pull him out and.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I think somebody is going to step up outside of Alex Caruso at the crib, but that damn Alex Caruso, man, I can't say enough about him.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, he just, he didn't do great in game three.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Yeah, but he did.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, he did great tonight.

[Kendrick Perkins]

I mean the step backs, the creating his own shots and getting out in transition. Overall, I mean I just was impressed with the Thunder, the way that they grew up, stayed in the moment. Never got rattled. Never like always stayed together. And again, that damn Chet Holmgren and what he done defensively in that four. Being able to switch out on the pick and rolls hedge out, I thought was huge. Now here's the question about Indiana. I thought Indiana was better. They were better defensively when they had Siakam and Ob topping on the floor. I thought the Thunder eyes lit up once Miles Turner checked back into the game. They quickly started picking on him, especially Jalen Williams in the pick and roll. Rick Carlos is going to have to make a tough decision in Game 5 because the athleticism of OB topping is needed, especially when it comes down to Gordon, these pick and rolls.

[Tim Bontemps]

Toppin was really good tonight.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Oh, he was awesome. He was awesome. He was awesome.

Tough to lose a game when obi Toppin goes 7 for 12 and has 17 and 7 off the bench. But he was minus 12 perk.

[Tim Bontemps]

I thought whoever would win this game was going to win the series. I'm stepping back from that because I.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Just might as well like to make predictions Perk, because I think the Pacers, I'm setting you up for that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Pacers have really proven that there's not separation between these teams.

[Kendrick Perkins]

No, it's not. This is great. If you're not enjoying these finals, then you're not a hoop head. Like both of these been awesome. Both of them? Both of them from top to bottom. So it's going to be interesting. I think like this is the moment in the game five. Well, I want to see Tyrese Halliburton elevate even more. Like, I need to. I. I want to. I want to see if he could go on the road and. And give you that 30 piece on the road. He's done it. I want to see if he could do it, do it on this stage. The 22 points that he had last game, almost flirting with a triple double. That was cool. But I still want to see more from him.

He had the 32 and 15 game here, too. Yeah, you know, he's hit the shots. No, I'm saying here, last round here, Indiana. Like, he's hit the big shots on the road. He hasn't had the big games to your point, on the road.

And that's the point. The superstars, role players, you know, go play well at home. You could credit C.J. mcConnell, Ben Matheran. They won you a game three, you know, now it's time for you to win them one on the road.

[Tim Bontemps]

So.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Pascal Siakam, though, has been fantastic. Oh, I'm just looking forward to Monday.

It's going to be awesome.

[Tim Bontemps]

Your son's waiting for you over there with his badass.

[Kendrick Perkins]

All right.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thanks, Perk. Thank you for watching. Listen to Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you on Sunday or on Monday.

[Kendrick Perkins]

Adios, everybody.