← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
NBA Finals Game 6 Preview + Should Minnesota Trade For KD?
00:51:52
Hoop Collective: NBA Finals Game 6 Preview + Should Minnesota Trade For KD?
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- [00:00]
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- [00:36]
Brian Windhorst
Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us back in New York City where he flew after Game five in Oklahoma City on Monday night is Tim Bunt Ups.
- [00:48]
Tim MacMahon
Hello everybody.
- [00:49]
Brian Windhorst
And joining us from down the street here in Oklahoma City, man who has covered the Thunder throughout this postseason. There were one win away from you writing about another champion is Ban McMahon.
- [00:59]
Woj
Howdy Partners. We're going to come back to Bricktown. What do you, what do you boys think? Wendy, you've been good with predictions in this series.
- [01:05]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I think a lot will depend on what Tyrese Halliburton can give him. And I expect Halliburton. I mean, you know, we're too, we know we're two days away as we're recording this. I don't know. I would be stunned if Halliburton doesn't play. I don't know what he can give him. Already he was having difficulty really getting into his game against Lou Dort and the way they defend. And I just want to say real quick, you know, because, you know, by the time this runs, I'm not sure how the fires are going to be raging on TJ McConnell should have played TJ McConnell, who we all love. He's a backup for a reason and you know, he also plays a lot against backups. And if the Thunder deployed full Deutscher chamber on, on TJ McConnell, I don't think he was having a 12.4 quarter.
- [01:58]
Tim MacMahon
I mean that's, I mean this is a, I mean that's just the wrong thing to say. That's the wrong argument to make. Hal Burton was invisible in the second half of the game and TJ McConnell by himself was part of a 20 to 0 bench scoring run in the third quarter.
- [02:14]
Brian Windhorst
Not disputing that.
- [02:15]
Tim MacMahon
We talked about this on the post game pot a little bit, but like, it's not about whether T.J. mcConnell is better than Tyrese Halberton. It's whether Rick Carlisle should have gone back to Tyrese Halberton when he isn't either clearly isn't right or clearly wasn't able to make the impact required on the game. And it was. That's fine watching him. He wasn't.
- [02:33]
Brian Windhorst
I'm just saying, I'm just saying for history purposes, I'm not so sure that changes the outcome of the game.
- [02:39]
Woj
I mean, I mean, are we really manufacturing a controversy for the fact that they went back to the face of the franchise who has come up in the clutch again and again and again and again to put them in the position to be in the finals with two wins? Like, come on.
- [02:56]
Brian Windhorst
Temps thinks it is.
- [02:57]
Tim MacMahon
I, I just think it, I think turning it into TJ McConnell is not nearly as good as Tyrese Halberton. So there's. There should be no discussion about whether you should win. No, that's not the right frame.
- [03:08]
Brian Windhorst
Not what I said. I said they would have defended him a lot differently if he was.
- [03:12]
Tim MacMahon
They tried to defend him in the third quarter and he was slicing, dicing him up. I mean, look, at the end of the day, the Thunder should have been up in that game. And that game was so much like game one. Me and McMahon were talking about the whole first half. They should have been up by 20 plus. They were not. They let the Pacers hang around. They did. And the difference was final several minutes of the game. The Thunder did what they always do, which is lean on their two scores, who are great, and their frenetic defense which completely tore the paces apart and it turned into a bunch of steals and a bunch of run out dunks. And you know, it was a fitting final 78 minutes that really showed the formula of why this Thunder team has had an all time great season and will officially have an all time great season if they can get one more win in the next two games.
- [04:00]
Woj
And to me, the takeaway from that game is not so, you know, not really about Tyrese Halliburton. It's about Jalen Williams. It's about.
- [04:08]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, absolutely.
- [04:10]
Woj
The Thunder have an MVP candidate entering his prime and he has a cop star for sure. Superstar possibly. I mean, we've talked about the Scotty Pippen comparison, but a dude who can impact the game in so many different ways, including being able to give you a 40 piece in game five of the finals. And when it got tight, he took over the game.
- [04:33]
Brian Windhorst
Well, just look at the way, first off, they're obviously down two one after three, so games four and five vital and the Thunder flip the series in those games. Look at the way Jalen Williams and Shade Gildas Alexander played together in game four. J Dub is playing point guard, you know, creating, you know, letting Shea play off the ball and then, and rest and then flopping roles in the fourth quarter and being a screen setter in game five. Shea goes back to full time point guard. He goes from 0 assists in game four to 10 assists in game five. And he's feeding J Dub, who's attacking the interior, attacking the paint, playing a different style. And J Dubs scores 27 in one game, 40 in the other. You know, Shay, Shay goes for another 30 piece with 10 assists. I mean, just. And forget about them defensively. By the way, Shea made like how many defensive plays? I mean, the whole team was full of defensive plays. The defensive stats on this game were crazy for Oklahoma City. But the amount of defensive plays that Shea made in the fourth quarter, well.
- [05:35]
Woj
He had four blocks and he had two steals on back to back possessions in the fourth quarter and they were one was a pick six and one was, you know, I forgot who else scored on it, but led right to a bucket. And that's the Thunder, that, you know, what, 32 points off turnovers. That's how, that's why they went into that game with an average margin of victory at home during the playoffs of over 21 points.
- [05:56]
Brian Windhorst
And look, I'm going to say something else, we'll talk about this later, but by the first week of July, not only could the Thunder have the championship, they could have Shea, Gilgamesh, Alexander, Chet Holmgren and Jalen Williams all signed into long term contracts. All of that could be done before the, they even, you know, stop icing from getting through this series. So just keep that in mind.
- [06:22]
Woj
Yeah, no, the, and, and you know what? Last time, the only other time the Thunder were in the finals, it. You felt like, okay, this is, they're going to go on a run of these things. Oh my gosh. They got kd, they got Russ, they got Harden. There were things bubbling then there was uncertainty obviously about Harden, who ended up getting traded because of the contract situation before the next season started. This is a core that's going to be together for a while. And this is a core that the pieces fit. You know, KD and Russ. It was like it's not even one plus one equals two type of thing. It was like, you know, 10 plus 10 equal 18.
- [07:02]
Brian Windhorst
Kendrick Perkins has told this story. I don't know if he's ever told it publicly, so hope I'm not overstepping. But when James Harden went to go play with Team usa, there were members of Team USA going, james, like, you are awesome. Like, you should have your own team. And when James got back from Team usa, like, it was like, it was a discussion point within the Thunder organization, within the players. Like, you know, James wants a bigger role. You know, James thinks he can have a bigger role, which, by the way, was clearly true.
- [07:36]
Woj
I mean, he was six man of the year, and then he was an MVP not too long after that.
- [07:39]
Brian Windhorst
Right. So, yes, the broke. And I don't want to relitigate the contract, but what you were referring to, McMahon, is exactly right. There was an issue about. About fit. About the role. And, you know, I talked to Chet after the game last night when he was walking out of the arena, and.
- [07:58]
Tim MacMahon
One of his discoveries, we met.
- [07:59]
Woj
Yes.
- [08:01]
Brian Windhorst
Well, when did you guys start following Chad on. On social media? Because I did like, five years.
- [08:06]
Woj
What we're doing now. I was following him on Instagram when he was 12.
- [08:09]
Brian Windhorst
I mean, like, sometimes, as I said, one of his discoveries, sometimes he's correct in joking about this. He can mock me, but, you know, I knew about you when he was in high school anyway.
- [08:18]
Woj
He was like, the number one recruit in the country. Congratulations.
- [08:21]
Tim MacMahon
A discovery.
- [08:22]
Brian Windhorst
I don't know who the number one recruit in the country.
- [08:23]
Woj
You were talking to. Were talking AJ Danza. You were talking to Chad.
- [08:29]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, I have talked to A.J.
- [08:31]
Tim MacMahon
Dan, but again, another one. Victor. A.J. chat.
- [08:36]
Woj
LeBron, you talking to Chad on the way out of the.
- [08:38]
Brian Windhorst
Are, you know, spending a little bit of time trying to get to know the future. All right. Anyway, Chet was saying about how hard the level of play has been and how hard this all is and how hard it is to play defense against the Pacers and how, you know, this is everything that he was ever told that, you know, people. He's like. He's like, people don't appreciate the level of effort that everybody out there is giving. And he's like, I wish.
- [09:08]
Tim MacMahon
Incredible. Serious.
- [09:09]
Brian Windhorst
He's like, I wish my shooting was better. He's like, I really do. He's like, I got to get that fixed, but I'm working as hard as I can. And, you know, he's 4:15 in game five.
- [09:18]
Tim MacMahon
But let's go back. But let's go back to game one. He has the bad game one. He comes and sits at the podium after the next day or the next media day and says, I got to make sure everything else is good, and if I do that, the scoring stuff will take care of itself. And in both Game four and Game five is getting offensive rebounds. He's blocking shots, he's making defensive plays.
- [09:39]
Brian Windhorst
On there, switching him out on the perimeter, like. And he's holding his own.
- [09:43]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, I mean, he. Like, you know, he's done the other things that they need. And, you know, Look, I'm glad McMahon brought it back to Jalen Williams, because, I mean, look, the Halliburton thing is obviously a sexy topic to discuss when he has a game like that and everything else, but we spent all season saying the one question about the Oklahoma City Thunder truly was whether they had a second guy good enough to get to the finish line. And all we have seen in this series is that that guy has arrived and this was the last piece. Now, again, like we've talked about, they still got to win another game. They still got to have a lot of luck in the future. But they already had the mvp. They've already got probably the best organization in the league. They've got the most draft assets in the league. They've got a roster with two guys over 27. This is a team that's set up to be a potential dynasty. And the one question was, do they have that second guy? The second guy went for 40, and in game five and made every single play to close this game out and to put this team a win away from a title like that was. That was the kind of game that 15, 20 years from now will be at the beginning of the hall of Fame reel for Jalen Williams. Like that. That's the kind of performance. It's like giannis going for 50 in game six a couple years ago. Like, it's one of the first things you're going to think about is this guy having that game in that situation in the fourth quarter, making plays to get these guys over the line. It was just unbelievable to watch those two guys go at it again against an awesome Pacers team that, you know, again, they didn't shoot the ball well yesterday. Halliburton doesn't score. They had a million turnovers. You're thinking, how is this game competitive? They find a way to really make it tight. Like, you guys are both there. That arena was real tight. When Pascal Siaka made that three, eight and a half minutes to go, there were not a lot of people there feeling good about where things were. And, you know, those two guys looked around and said, yeah, we're good. We'll take care of it.
- [11:44]
Brian Windhorst
You know what I saw? And I'll say, because it was on national television, there was a Call in the, you know, the fourth quarter is in a slugfest and there was a call under the basket. I can't remember what it was. And they showed the Thunder bench and Mark Dagenault's reacting. And behind the bench you can see Sam Presti, like bouncing up off out of his chair looking at, you know, Sam is like the most stoic guy. They always show him on tv. You know, whether he's in the tunnel or he's in this scene, he's just, you know, the same face always. And you know, he's been building this team for 17 years. Like the skin is in the game and like he was bouncing around behind the bench last night.
- [12:23]
Woj
He probably needed some jazz rap to calm himself down at that point.
- [12:26]
Brian Windhorst
I'm sure he needed a lot of things. Jackson put a couple of things in here. Relative we just talked about in our, our list here. Chet held Indiana to 3 of 12 as the primary defender last night. And O of 3 on 3 is when he's obviously on the perimeter. And Shea and J Dub have scored 291 points through five games of the Finals, the fourth most by a duo ever through five games. Pippen and Jordan twice were more than that. LeBron and Kyrie in 2017, that was the game, you know, that was what was Shumpert. Iman Shumpert was referencing and the post game podcast last night, he, he compared the, the J Dub and SGA game to the, the game five in 2016 where both Kyrie Irving and LeBron both scored 41 points. That was the, the game where Draymond Green was suspended and Andrew Boga got hurt, where basically the finals changed. And then also that same year, 2017, Durant and Curry. So just to put in perspective here, what's happening through, through games, we're talking about all these guys are top 75 players.
- [13:34]
Woj
Well, and, and you look at that list, right? All those guys won championships together. KD and Steph, a couple, Braun, Kyrie won, Jordan, Pippen, six. The group that grew up, the duo that grew up together and stayed together for the long haul won six of those things. I'm not saying the Thunder gonna win six, but what I'm telling you is sga, Dub Chat, that core is going to be together for a long, long time. SGA is still getting better. Dub is take. He's taking big leaps every single season and you know, he's taking big leaks.
- [14:07]
Tim MacMahon
Every week in the playoffs. And then this is a guy who a couple rounds ago against Denver was really struggling, right, but had a Couple big games when it mattered has gotten better. Each round was better against Minnesota has been better in this series. Like, you know, when you look at the ages on the roster and you see two guys that are over 27 and they're 30 and 31, it's. This is not how.
- [14:30]
Brian Windhorst
And they're both reserves. Those are both reserves.
- [14:33]
Tim MacMahon
That's.
- [14:33]
Woj
Yeah. And obviously Crusoe is a huge key in this. Kenrich Williams is a, you know, a solid contributor in ways you see in ways you don't behind the scenes. But yeah, this core is going to be. And they'll have some tough payroll decisions, but those won't be sga, J Dub and Chad. And by the way, this will be the worst version you see of Chet in a while. Think about this guy was bedridden for weeks for much of this season. You know, obviously the physique is already a challenge for him. He literally could not get himself out of bed for weeks. Came back after missing 50 games. Like he's not in peak form right now. And he's, he's gutting it out. You know, he's. He's banged up but man, you know, Chad's been, he's contributed during the series. Jalen Williams is serving notice to the league that hey, this is a star duo. I mean you could, I don't know, superstar. We can argue about the definition, but they've got two all NBA players. Neither of them have even hit their prime yet and they're both playing at level right now.
- [15:32]
Brian Windhorst
There's no. I always sort of keep Team USA in the back of my mind with.
- [15:37]
Woj
Bonten's problem now, I believe that Chet.
- [15:40]
Brian Windhorst
Has got to be a future, a future player on Team usa. And seeing him do this in this series is really important. It's really important. And Grant Hill, whoever the next head coach of the Team USA is, I got a pretty good idea who it's going to be, but I'm not going to go down that stretch right now. Jalen Williams, clear your 2028 summer, sir. Because you're going to be needed.
- [16:04]
Woj
Well, and the thing, the reason he is or one reason he's such a great fit as SGA's co stars, same reason that he would be of so much value to Team usa. This guy can impact the game every way. He doesn't have to have the ball, he doesn't have to score to impact the game. Second team, all defense. He can play point, you know, he can slash, he can, he can cut, he can shoot, he can create like whatever you need him to do. He can and he will from from dirty work to you know the game 5 of the finals 40 piece more hoop collective podcast after this for men.
- [16:43]
Brian Windhorst
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- [16:45]
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- [17:34]
Brian Windhorst
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- [18:02]
Brian Windhorst
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- [18:56]
Brian Windhorst
So Tyrese Haliburton's health will obviously be extremely important. I also think it's relevant, guys, that since going Back to the big lineup. The Thunder have kind of got what they've wanted. They obviously don't play big the whole time. They play small very effectively with Chet Holmgren. But starting with that big lineup, you know, Isaiah Hartenstein has gotten some really good production. They've gotten into their rotation a lot cleaner. Less searching from, from Dagonal, in my opinion. I'm always careful. I don't like the term quote unquote figured out. I hear that a lot. People go, oh well, they've got them figured out. It was a two point game in the fourth quarter. You know, it still could have gone either way. But I think the Thunder are in a comfortable place, as comfortable as they've been in the series with how their strategy is going into the game. And there's obviously still game plan changes. They, they went with the Jalen Williams point guard in game four. Not anywhere near as much in game five. That, you know, I still think you're going to see changes in that. But I think McMahon that the, the Thunder have established what their style of play is going to be and that's going to be hard to two in a row if you're indie.
- [20:13]
Woj
Yeah. And you know, Hartenstein, it's not even necessarily box score stuff. The, the screen with him is big. But obviously what the Thunder have done all year long, what they're always trying to do is dominate the possession battle. And this is, you know, how many, how many games now have we talked about 30 plus points off of turnovers? Hartenstein anchoring the defense as part of that. Honestly, early in that game he was basically playing point center. He was like a, you know, a poor man's joker. He loves the back door, you know, the back door passes, all those kind of things. But you know, as. As much as this was about like Jalen Williams arrival is also about the Thunder's defense just for a lot of that game, absolutely smothering the Pacers and you know, just harassing and getting things going the other way. Including in the, in the fourth quarter when a couple of the biggest plays were those SGA steals that were led right in the buckets on the other end.
- [21:11]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, I mean, you know, the Thunder have utterly dominated the three games in Oklahoma City. They've led for 141 of 144 minutes in the games in Oklahoma City and the Pacers have. I think it's been 58 to 38 roughly in the games in India. It's been a series where the home team has largely played better. And you know, we saw We've seen the Pacers stay in games despite not hitting threes and despite Halliburton not playing well. And you know, I think it's pretty reductive. But I think what we're going to see in game six is you know, these Thunder reserves, you know Casey Wallace and Aaron Wiggins had huge games off the bench in game five. Can guys like that, can Caruso have another big game in Game 6? Can they get some production from the other guys who have tended to play much better in Oklahoma City and really outside of that Caruso game in game four have not done much in Indiana. If they can get some production from those guys and the stars deliver like they have been. You know, I think the Thunder should be in pretty good position to close this thing out, particularly with Halberton situation up in the air. But you know the Pacers can hit a ton of threes and we've seen it. And the Thunder can miss a ton of threes and we've seen it. And so I, you know, I certainly think it's. There's plenty of reason to believe this is going to be a heck of a show on Thursday and that the paces aren't going down without a fight after you know, losing back to back games for the first time and what you've had the stat three months Brian, since March.
- [22:44]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, it was, it was like 41 games they had lost and that's like clearly it's half a season. You know imagine going through half an NBA season and not losing back to back games. Of course you're obviously playing your your full out. It's not apples to apples but Bontemps, you mentioned the three point shooting. Obviously the Pacers came into the finals the number one three point shooting team in the, in the playoffs had just a couple of dominating 3 point shooting series crushed the Cavs with it shot great against the Knicks. Here are the three point percentages that you've seen from the from the Pacers in this series. Siakam 35% Tyrese Halliburton 29% Miles Turner 23% Obi Top and 33% and he had that one game where I think made five out of six.
- [23:25]
Woj
Yeah. Game game one he couldn't miss.
- [23:27]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Basically the only guy, the only two guys who have. Or Andrew Nemhart 33%. So TJ McConnell has hit some threes. He's not a volume shooter. Niece Smith has continued to shoot it well and Matherin has shot it well. But their, their three point shooting that was just sort of Universal that they used to just crush opponents, especially when they would be in transition and do, you know, kick outs. That just hasn't been there. And obviously some of it is just the thunder because they've controlled. They've controlled them a lot better. But also, you know, it's not. Everybody shoots hot forever and Indiana's finally missed some shots on their hand. You could point out that maybe, you know, in an elimination game on their home court, you could see them, you know, sort of rebound back, that they've probably underachieved a little bit. They've only got one guy in this, in this series averaging 20 points and that's the Occam, who, by the way, had a really strong fourth quarter that, you know, might be lost to history a little bit because of the.
- [24:26]
Tim MacMahon
He's had a heck of a playoff run. He's been really good.
- [24:29]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, I mean, there was quite a few. I really wasn't. I understand why the Pacers paid him the max because they're not going to be able to acquire talent like that. I wonder how many teams, you know, would have been willing to pay Siako and the Mask the max a year ago. And it's like he's operated like a max player in the playoffs.
- [24:48]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah, it's like we talked about the other day with the Desmond Bain trade like that. The, the. The Pacers identified Siakam as a guy who fit the way they were going to play and was a perfect fit with Tyres Alberton. They frankly got him playing a little differently than he did with Toronto and is really maximized the things he's good at. Like, people watching have seen it all series. Anytime he gets a smaller defender on him, whether it's Shea or Kayson Wallace or like all good defenders, he gets that guy in his back shoulder and he can turn in the paint like he's scoring 90% of the time. Like his ability to take it in when he gets out in the open court, if he gets a bigger, slower guy on him, he get attack and transition and score like he. He's been the perfect fit for their team. And it, it's obviously Orlando made a similar type of acquisition hoping for a similar type of impact in Bain. And that's another one where you looked at it and said, man, do you want to pay that guy the max? Do you want to pay that many draft picks to get him? And if he has any kind of impact like the one Pascal Siakam has had in Indy, you're going to feel great about it. And certainly the Pacers getting him on their team. It's obviously the Halliburton trade is the thing to truly change the direction of the franchise, but they don't trade for Pascal Siakam. They are still just a nice, interesting team in the East. That's the move that's got them in the finals and could maybe have them back there again next year.
- [26:04]
Brian Windhorst
Did you guys see the footage of Jamal Mosley, the Magic's head coach, meeting Desmond Bain at the airport?
- [26:12]
Woj
As Kevin Durant said, you could hear that Dap. I think I was at the practice facility, but he.
- [26:16]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, I thought it was at the airport.
- [26:17]
Tim MacMahon
Yeah.
- [26:17]
Woj
Duran on, on Twitter said something like, you could hear that Dap all the way in Memphis. Yeah, and, and listen, man, Mosley's a guy players love to play for. That's been the case, you know, going back to when he was just getting started in Denver and, and Cleveland back in the day, you know, through Dallas and then obviously when he became a head coach in Orlando. It's going to be match are going to be interesting.
- [26:37]
Tim MacMahon
Well, a guy who defends and a guy who could score, that's music to Jamal Mosley's ears.
- [26:42]
Brian Windhorst
So Mosley said that it was because he's killed them. He's had so many good games against him. I, I assume he also means maybe in Dallas too, because I looked up his numbers against the Magic.
- [26:52]
Woj
It wasn't like, oh, and no, in Dallas, he, you know, Bane, who's played college ball at TCU down the road and went 30 in a draft when the Mavericks had 18 and picked Josh Green. Yeah, Bane, Bane. He's had some games in Dallas and enjoyed those games.
- [27:08]
Brian Windhorst
So, yeah, I mean, that's the thing. When you're a team like Orlando, a team like Indiana, you know, talent acquisition is such a huge challenge and so you pay a little bit more to, to acquire. And, and that's one of the reasons why the Thunder have been reluctant to give up draft picks. And also when they have, when I say give up draft picks, like make a, a four or five draft pick trade, like you just see. And also when they've identified players in the draft or when move around, they've kind of at times overpaid a little bit because, you know, because they can, because they, because they realize how important and how difficult it is for talent acquisition for small markets.
- [27:50]
Woj
Well, the other thing that's been happening with the Thunder is they've put together a young group that they hoped, thought, believed could be the core of a contender eventually. That has happened very, very quickly, obviously talking about sga, Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren and it is going to become very, very expensive. So for them, you know, some of not going all in is about fit, it's about patience, it's about, you know, being set up for the long haul and it's about, you know, having a payroll that is going to be manageable when they have a chance to be a contender for, by modern NBA standards, an eternity.
- [28:30]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, you don't want to assume anything, but they certainly have worked. You know, we know they were set up for the future. The question is, is was the present good enough? And we're 48 good minutes away from the present being golden.
- [28:42]
Woj
More Hoop Collective Podcast after this With.
- [28:46]
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- [29:16]
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- [29:39]
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- [30:09]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, the draft is a week away and we're in the very thick of it with this Kevin Durant thing, and so I don't know what's going to happen by the time this comes out. But while we're talking about this, on Tuesday afternoon, the Minnesota Timberwolves have a very interesting situation sitting in their laps. Okay, I'm not saying anything definitive. To be clear, I'm not reporting this, but my feel is that if the Timberwolves wanted it, they could probably get a trade for Durant done. Okay, the question is, and Durant has made it very clear that he has not got the Wolves on his list. Okay? It is practically been posted on social media. It's been posted on social media by Shams, essentially. But it might as well be posted on social media by Durant. If you're Minnesota, do you trade for a player who doesn't want to be there, who very clearly doesn't want to be there?
- [31:01]
Woj
And not just a player, do you trade for Kevin Durant? That player, obviously an all time great, but a guy who, when he's not happy, it's pretty apparent. I think it would be a friendly way to say that, you know, do you want to bring a disgruntled, aging legend on your roster? As, as good as he is, man, there's, there's a lot of risk there and honestly, I think there might even be more, so, even more risk here because Ant looks up to him so much. Like, I just think when, when you talk about like, you know, vibes matter and I would be very concerned about vibes when he's telling you, hey, I don't want to be there, please don't trade me or trade for me. And then you do it anyway. There's risk beyond salary cap and what you're giving up and you know, the basketball stuff.
- [31:59]
Tim MacMahon
I don't think this is the right conversation because I just don't think it's a smart trade for the Wolves to make, period. I don't think they should trade for Kevin Durant at all. I don't really understand the fascination with it. I don't think it makes their team better. It seems likely if they're going to do a trade, Rudy Gobert is going to be in it. If Rudy Gobert is not on the Wolves, I don't know how they're guarding anyone. Their roster would be incredibly imbalanced. They would still have some real questions at the point going forward.
- [32:29]
Brian Windhorst
Some of the same problems Phoenix had.
- [32:32]
Tim MacMahon
It would be more talented and deeper, but very similar team that would be all offense and all over the place from a roster composition standpoint. Yes, you can make several other moves and try to balance out the roster further, but I just don't see what, I don't see what. This team just made the conference finals back to back years for the first time in 20 years. Right? They're a really good team. Yes. They have some flaws. They could try to add some stuff this summer and see if they can keep all their guys. But let's say even if Kevin Durant was like, yeah, I want to be in Minnesota, this is the number one spot on my list. Why are you giving up assets for 37 year old Kevin Durant, who just didn't have a huge impact on winning in Phoenix, to play with Anthony Edwards on a roster that's already skewing older than his timeline anyway, and you don't have any assets down the road to make it better. I just, the entire fit of this just doesn't make sense to me and I don't, I really don't think if they make this deal that I'm going to come out of it thinking they're better.
- [33:37]
Brian Windhorst
Well, there's two aspects of it as I've been talking about for months now. It's not even just trading for Kevin Durant, which you're bringing up valid points. If you're going to trade for him and you want him to be invested, you're probably going to have to say, I mean, what you're saying probably is, Kevin, come and we're going to give you two years and 120 million additionally.
- [33:53]
Woj
Especially if he's telling you I don't want to be there. And that's, that's how you, well, that's, that's, that's how you play Minnesota nice with.
- [33:58]
Brian Windhorst
Well, that's what happened. I mean, I'm not comparing Jimmy Butler to, to Kevin Durant, obviously, very different. Butler's position initially was he didn't want to go to Golden State. And part of it, I'm not saying was the 100% reason, but part of it was because what Phoenix was prepared to do contractually was significantly better than what Golden State was willing to do. And when Golden State increased their position also, the Phoenix door was never open, so it wasn't necessary. He wasn't choosing A or B. But his interest level in Golden State increased when he got that contract done. And when he arrived, he had a big smile on his face. But yes, he was happy to put Steph Curry. He said all the right things, but he also was holding a contract that he very much liked when he got there. Durant, that's what you're essentially going to do if you're Minnesota. You're going to say, kevin, come here, play with Ann Edwards. You know, we have this plan and here's also, you know, a promise of a two year extension. That's what all he can do.
- [34:54]
Tim MacMahon
Two years, 100 through his 40th birthday.
- [34:57]
Brian Windhorst
And that's the thing like, forget it. You, you're talking about temps, about whether you like the fit of the trade straight up. Now you add the layer of paying them $60 million a year when you already have ant on a huge deal, when you already have concerns, you know, you're already out, you're still, you still haven't paid for the Go Bear trade yet. And you know who else, who knows what's going to be totally in this, this type of trade, you may be hollowing out some of your, your, you know, smaller salaries with it as well. So it's, it's not, it's not a clean decision.
- [35:28]
Woj
Now it'd be a, it'd be an extraordinarily aggressive move for a team that just is coming off back to back conference finals appearances with a 23 year old superstar face the franchise. You know, you could say hey, back to back conference finals, but they got, they got bounced in five both years. Like yes, they've made deep playoff runs but you could look at that and say they're not that close to being a, a championship team. You know, bomb temps to your argument, like, okay, does KD move the needle for him significantly? And, and to, to make this kind of trade, I think you've got to move the needle pretty significantly because it is such a massive commitment to a guy who as great as he still is, is in the twilight of his career.
- [36:15]
Tim MacMahon
If, if you look at the team that's about to potentially win the championship and you think the answer is to trade for a 37 year old guy and give him $180 million the next three years, including this coming season. I don't know what you're looking at because that if you have Anthony Edwards, you've got to be playing the long game. And you know, the Rudiger trade was a, a move the needle forward trade on an older player, but it was a guy who still had some prime years left, who you knew if you brought him in you were going to have an immediate instant impact on the defense event, which he did. Obviously the first year was a little rocky. Make the conference finals each last two years. Like again like the Siakam trade. That trade has worked out for Minnesota for a team that hadn't won anything. But again, this guy Anthony Edwards is, should not be going anywhere anytime soon. He's just starting to get into the early part of his prime years. Like okay, go trade for Kevin Durant.
- [37:09]
Brian Windhorst
Like yeah, you're already beating Durant led teams. Yeah, like you're already soundly beating them.
- [37:14]
Tim MacMahon
Yes. And, and if we've seen anything in these playoffs, right. It's that older teams have struggled and older teams have run out of gas. Playing these younger teams with depth like the, the formula is there. It's youth and depth. That's with how hard it is to get through the 82 game season with how hard this, the game is to be played in the playoffs. The amount of energy these guys are exerting on a nightly basis like that, that's the formula working and it's a lot of what Minnesota has. They're not a very old team. They've got depth across the roster. Like, yeah, it was a five game series. They were right there in game four. Like, you know that you could look at them the next couple of years and think they could make some tweaks and be a team. That's going to be an interesting challenge for Oklahoma City. But yeah, I just, whatever Durant decides, I just don't like the fit at all.
- [38:00]
Brian Windhorst
If, I'll tell you one thing, if, if you're Houston, who's shown some interest but hasn't been willing to, you know, put together an offer that seems to compel Phoenix, I'm not increasing my offer at all. I'm sitting there going, because this is what happened with Toronto. Toronto, when they got Kawhi, they were just the last team standing.
- [38:21]
Woj
Yeah.
- [38:22]
Brian Windhorst
And if I'm, if I'm Houston or Miami, I'm like, okay, you know, I'll sit here and wait with this. What I'm holding it. Now. The interesting, yeah, the interesting team, I think is San Antonio. San Antonio from, you know, from what Shams has reported and what I've heard, you know, San Antonio is on the list, but seems to be of the teams involved, the least aggressive other than the Knicks. The Knicks, I think were on the list and then passed. I don't think San Antonio's passed, but they're, I don't think they're, they're really into it.
- [38:53]
Woj
Well, and I think San Antonio and Houston are, have somewhat similar approaches here in, in the sense of, hey, like, they'd be cool having Kevin Durant on the roster, but not, they don't want to do something that would diminish their chances to have a long Runway. You know, they're not trying to give up like the idea that the Suns are going to get anything resembling the package that they gave up to get Kevin Durant is just, that's not, certainly not from either one of those teams. That's just not going to happen. Now the biggest difference is Houston is closer and does have just a clear need for a go to guy like, you can make an argument. I, you know, I don't know if they closes the gap all the way to okc, that's an awfully big gap. But you can make an argument. You add a go to guy like Kevin Durant to that Rocket score and there are a contender next year. Whereas San Antonio, you know, they haven't even made the play in yet. You know, we all think they're on that track. They do have though, the face of their franchise for what they hope is like a decade and a half to come.
- [40:01]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I will say this. If you, if San Antonio got Durant, they could match. They could match Durant's contract up closer to like Victor and not have to pay all of them, including, I'm assuming, dear, and Fox gets extended, it kind of fits in a little bit better. Houston's got to start. You know, Houston's money. They already got Jalen Green. Although maybe Jalen Green would be in a deal.
- [40:24]
Tim MacMahon
Personally, of all the teams that have been discussed, the one, the only one that really makes any sense for me to trade for Kevin Durant is Houston. Like, I, I don't like the San Antonio fit either. Miami is nowhere near being competitive. I mean, they just got blitzed by a billion points by the Cavs in the first round of the playoffs. They're adding Kevin Durant's not getting them anywhere near where they hope to be. But Houston, though, especially if like, you know, look, we talked about the time that Jalen Green contract is a contract that's built to be traded, at least in their minds, right? It's the one big salary. They've got him and Fred Van Vliet, if you take Jalen Green just in that scenario off the roster and you put in Kevin Durant, like with incredible defensive talent around him, like that is a team that makes sense. That is a team that would take a meaningful step forward and I would understand why Houston would do that. I think the fit there could be great. All these other teams that are in the mix, though, the fit doesn't make a lot of sense and I'm just not sure what the motivation is to go to the price required.
- [41:29]
Brian Windhorst
So let me ask you this. We've, because we've talked about how right now it seems like the, the concept of a Yanis trade is on ice, but not necessarily the door door is not necessarily bolted. If you're a team like Houston, you are in position to make an offer for, for kd. I'M sorry for, for Giannis in the event. But in the events, doing a lot of work there, you know, and I don't know. I don't.
- [41:55]
Woj
What I'll tell you is this. The Rockets don't feel that they have to make a splashy move.
- [42:02]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [42:03]
Woj
That they're, they're not ruling out the possibility. You know, and this was, this was how they felt before the playoffs, was how they felt. You know, it was a competitive first round series against the Warriors. You know, the lack of a go to guy was, was glaring in that. But they're not going to make a move just because, oh, my gosh, we, you know, we got to do something. We got to do something. You know, they don't want to shorten that Runway unless it's a significant. And again, getting back to how much it moves a needle, they have to move it significantly to shorten the Runway. Now, they, they might not have to shorten the Runway to pull off a KD deal if the market, you know, especially if Minnesota bows out.
- [42:40]
Brian Windhorst
Well, there's also the, I guess there's also the possibility that if Phoenix doesn't get what it wants, like if, if Minnesota doesn't do it or lowers the offer because KD is not interested or if Houston's not willing, like, it's also possible they could just keep them through the draft. I mean, there's no rule we expect.
- [42:56]
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It to be getting run around the.
- [42:57]
Brian Windhorst
Draft because there might be picks involved, but nowhere is it written that a deal must happen in June.
- [43:02]
Woj
Now, the draft is a trade deadline of sorts, but like you said, it's a trade deadline because the Suns would want to be able to say, we're taking this guy with this pick that's going to be involved in the deal. But if they feel like the value is. Is bad, you know, it's not like training camp starting July 1st or anything.
- [43:19]
Tim MacMahon
Well, that remains. The question is, you know, what are they gonna. What are they gonna do when they're sitting there staring down the barrel of doing a trade and it's for a significant amount less than what Desmond Bain got. Like, what's Mattish be gonna do?
- [43:35]
Brian Windhorst
I appreciated the, the sentiments and the, the mandate to have alignment. We know, I think 23 times in Brian Gregory's introductory press conference, he said, align or alignment or aligned. This one is a hard thing to get aligned on. I mean, even people who have a lot of experience would have a hard time getting aligned on this one. So I wish them luck. I've been told Bontemps has something he wants to discuss.
- [44:02]
Tim MacMahon
Well, we have a trade. Oh, well, the Indiana Pacers have made a trade. They've traded the 23rd pick in this year's draft to the New Orleans Pelicans for their pick in next year's draft, which the, which the Paces had originally traded to Toronto and then went to New Orleans in the Brandon Ingram trade.
- [44:23]
Woj
A Finals team making a draft pick swap during a series. A lot. The Denver Nuggets are trying to get some that they, hey, if the Nuggets pull a draft pick swap during the finals and won a title, maybe the Pacers are looking for that kind of mojo.
- [44:36]
Brian Windhorst
Two things I'll say about this. One, this is a maneuver to save some salary thing because, because they're going to try to resign Miles Turner and probably be a luxury taxpayer for the first time.
- [44:50]
Tim MacMahon
This is a move designed to save some money this year and avoid paying the luxury tax, which I will again predict that the Indiana Pacers, while saying, yeah, we're going to pay the luxury tax and haven't for decades and they barely have to do anything else to avoid paying the luxury tax, I suspect they're going to not pay the luxury tax next season.
- [45:09]
Brian Windhorst
Well, where they are at the start of the season in the end might be two different things, but it's a, it's a tax related move. And the second thing I'm going to say is I was talking to their team president, Kevin Pritchard on the practice day like two, three days ago, and he was saying to me, he's like, oh my God. He goes, because it's the first time he's been in the Finals. He goes, I know that there's been some teams that have done business during the finals in the past, but I don't know how anybody, anybody's getting anything done. He goes, figured it out. This is, you know, this is a really difficult situation. He's like, we've, he did tell me. He's like, we've only had like two draft workouts. Maybe I should have paid more attention to that.
- [45:47]
Woj
We're not really excited for the draft. We're about to move this pick.
- [45:50]
Tim MacMahon
They also do now have all their picks, right? So they've, they've completely replenished their pick reserves going forward after the Siakam trade. Another reason that trade looks awfully good in retrospect. And. Yeah, and it, you know, it's also an interesting bet by the Pelicans. I mean, the Pelicans making that trade is to me, an indication they expect the Pacers Like I think we do to be one of the five best teams in the NBA next year. Because in theory, you're saying, all right, we get an unprotected first. You know, it's top four next year, but you're getting a first round pick and your expectation is it's going to be below 23 in the draft and you'd rather have the higher pick this year.
- [46:30]
Brian Windhorst
Well, other thing is, if I'm betting on a team's pick, I'd rather have a Western Conference team because those guys are going to eat each other up. So I, I'll take a Western Conference team pick because it could be all, oh, it's not.
- [46:42]
Tim MacMahon
It's. It's the 23rd pick in this year's draft for Indiana's pick next year. So the game.
- [46:48]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, they're getting their pick back.
- [46:49]
Woj
Yeah, they're getting a pick that was in the Seattle.
- [46:53]
Brian Windhorst
It was in the Brander Ingham deal. Okay.
- [46:55]
Woj
Yes.
- [46:56]
Brian Windhorst
Got it, got it.
- [46:57]
Tim MacMahon
So they're essentially betting that the Pacers will be one of the five or six best teams in the league next year, which, I mean, the.
- [47:04]
Brian Windhorst
Right now, the Pelicans are betting that. Got it. Sorry, it was a little slow on the uptake. Thank you, Mr. Bontemps, for breaking that down.
- [47:11]
Tim MacMahon
Sure.
- [47:12]
Brian Windhorst
Before we go, McMahon. You know, I'd never met your guy, Big Rich, until there's this round. I've heard about him for years. You and Bon Temps and all these people talk about him. I gotta tell you, Big Rich hosted me at the Tipsy to watch the US Open. I love this guy.
- [47:29]
Woj
They went out and got you some Diet Coke even, I hear.
- [47:33]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, they were. They were out of Diet Coke. You know, I'm not a drinker. And they were out of Diet Coke because I guess on Sunday, on Saturday night, they must had a big night. They were. They were low on their reserves. And one of the, the lovely waitresses went out and got some, some so that I could watch in a back room the US Open. I love.
- [47:53]
Tim MacMahon
Nobody's ever been happier to sit at a bar by themselves in a room.
- [47:57]
Brian Windhorst
I wasn't by myselves.
- [47:58]
Tim MacMahon
Well, Tim, and he was inside.
- [48:01]
Woj
He had the air conditioning. I would have hung out. You know, I'm not going to talk about golf. I don't know anything about it. I get in trouble when I talk about sports. I don't know anything about. I would have hung out and just, you know, been a, been a bunny of Whitney's. But I had to go play pickup basketball. Dominant performance, five and one. My team was. I was the captain. I had a presti like draft and then a joker like performance. I mean, my goodness. But I'm glad you enjoyed your afternoon, too.
- [48:26]
Brian Windhorst
I. It was wonderful. So thank you to Big Rich and thank you for the hospitality. Will we be back to see him next weekend? This weekend? I guess we'll. We'll find out. All right. Thank you to all of our producers. Jackson is actually at the OKC airport about to walk onto a plane as he's together. And and Taylor, for helping us out today, thank you for watching and listening to who Collective. Thank you to man and Botumps. And we'll talk to you later this week.
- [48:50]
Woj
Adios, amigos. In 1979, the first words spoken on ESPN weren't just an announcement. If you're a fan, they were a sports prophecy.
- [49:16]
Brian Windhorst
What you'll see in the next minutes, hours and days to follow.
- [49:19]
Woj
Glad you're with us tonight.
- [49:21]
Tim MacMahon
May convince you you've gone to sports heaven.
- [49:25]
Woj
And right now, you're standing on the edge of tomorrow. This fall, the next era of ESPN begins sports forever.