NBA Finals Set With Historic Win By Pacers + Huge Offseason Coming For Knicks

Summary

Podcast Summary: NBA Finals Set With Historic Win By Pacers + Huge Offseason Coming For Knicks

Date Released: June 1, 2025

Hosts:

• Brian Windhorst (ESPN)
• Tim Bontemps
• Ben McMahon

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1. Game 6 Recap: Pacers Secure Championship

The podcast begins with a lively discussion surrounding Game 6 of the NBA Finals, where the Indiana Pacers clinched the championship by defeating the New York Knicks in a decisive game six. Hosted by Brian Windhorst from Gainbridge Fieldhouse in Indianapolis, the team reflects on the Pacers' performance and the Knicks' shortcomings.

Key Highlights:

• Pacers' Dominance: The Pacers showcased their characteristic speed and efficient turnover play, securing a 17-point victory.
• Knicks' Struggles: The Knicks were plagued by 18 turnovers, leading to 34 points for the Pacers off these mistakes. Tim Bontemps emphasized, “They could not handle the ball” ([04:52]).
• Historic Win: This marks the first Finals win for the Pacers in 25 years, highlighting the significance of their triumph.

Notable Quote:

Ben McMahon: "For a guy you consider, I don't know, fourth starter, maybe even fifth starter. Heck of a performance to just put." ([09:54])

2. Player Performances and Injuries

The hosts delve into individual performances and the impact of injuries on both teams, particularly focusing on key players like Pascal Siakam and Josh Hart.

Key Highlights:

• Pascal Siakam's Impact: Siakam was instrumental in the Pacers' success, earning five votes for the Eastern Conference Finals MVP. His versatility and relentless energy were pivotal throughout the series.
• Josh Hart's Injury: Hart announced a dislocated finger after Game 6, a setback for the Knicks.
• Andrew Nemhardt's Defense: Nemhardt excelled defensively, recording six steals and significantly disrupting Knicks' plays. Brian noted, “He picked Brunson's pocket and got a breakout layup in the third quarter” ([08:43]).

Notable Quote:

Tim Bontemps: “But he also made a lot of changes during the course of this series to try to figure out the Pacers. He changed his starting lineup, he expanded his rotation, he made over the game plans.” ([10:32])

3. Trades Impacting the Finals

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the trades that shaped the Finals, particularly contrasting the Knicks' acquisition of Mikhail Bridges with the Pacers' trade for Pascal Siakam.

Key Highlights:

• Knicks' Trade for Bridges: The Knicks traded two first-round picks in the 2025 draft and Boyan Bogdanovich to acquire Bridges. However, Bridges' performance fell short of expectations, contributing five turnovers in the Finals.
• Pacers' Trade for Siakam: In contrast, the Pacers secured Siakam, who proved to be a game-changer. The trade involved giving up three first-round picks, including the 19th and 26th picks, and dealing with future draft uncertainties.

Notable Quote:

Tim Bontemps: “The difference in the series in a lot of ways is the Knicks traded a lot of picks for Mikhail Bridges, and the Pacers traded a lot of picks for Pascal Siakam. Yeah, and Pascal Siakam played like a guy you trade a lot of picks for. Then Mikhail Bridges didn't.” ([07:10])

4. Future Projections for Pacers and Knicks

Looking ahead, the hosts speculate on the offseason moves and future prospects for both the Pacers and Knicks, highlighting potential strategies to strengthen their rosters.

Key Highlights:

• Pacers' Offseason Plans: With ownership considering entering the tax for additional cap flexibility, the Pacers may look to extend key players like Miles Turner. Ben McMahon emphasized, "They pushed too much to get Pas Siakam, but they deserve all the credit for building around him."
• Knicks' Potential Additions: The Knicks could target free agents like Al Horford to bolster their lineup. Tim suggests, “If they add some depth to the roster beyond their top seven, this Knicks team looks a lot different and perhaps this series looks a lot different.”

Notable Quote:

Ben McMahon: “If they go get Al Horford this summer, who I think would be an unbelievable fit on this Knicks roster, and they go get another perimeter player to deepen their rotation... That's a better team.” ([17:31])

5. Eastern Conference Outlook and Team Comparisons

The discussion expands to a broader analysis of the Eastern Conference, comparing the Pacers and Knicks to other contenders like the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Atlanta Hawks.

Key Highlights:

• Pacers as Favorites: The Pacers are viewed as the clear favorites for the upcoming season, given their strong performance and effective roster construction.
• Knicks' Challenges: Despite a strong season, the Knicks' inability to defend against top-tier teams remains a concern.
• Cavaliers and Hawks: Both teams face similar defensive challenges, particularly in guarding high-caliber opponents like the Pacers.

Notable Quote:

Brian Windhorst: “The Pacers, as of now, to me, are the clear team to look at going into the next season to be back in this position again.” ([33:34])

6. Predictions for Next Season's Eastern Conference Finals

The hosts make predictions regarding the potential matchups and outcomes for the next Eastern Conference Finals, focusing on the Pacers' strengths and the challenges they might face.

Key Highlights:

• Pacers vs. Thunder: Speculations suggest the Pacers may face the Oklahoma City Thunder, a team known for their robust defense and young talent.
• Strategic Matchups: Tim Bontemps highlights the Thunder's capability to slow down the Pacers’ offense, emphasizing the strategic defensive plays that might influence the Finals.

Notable Quote:

Tim Bontemps: “The Pacers, the Pacer were awesome in the series, have been awesome in the playoffs, are in an awesome team.” ([32:59])

7. Conclusion and Future Podcast Plans

The episode wraps up with the hosts discussing their plans for future podcasts, including post-game analyses and live shows.

Key Highlights:

• Post-Game Podcasts: After each Finals game, the hosts will release short podcasts featuring special guests, potentially including NBA champions.
• Live Shows: A live podcast event is scheduled for July 12 at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, where the hosts will further discuss the Finals and offseason moves.

Notable Quote:

Brian Windhorst: “When we get to July 12, could the Thunder have won the championship? Could the Thunder have re signed their three stars?” ([53:06])

8. Hosts' Banter and Light-Hearted Moments

Throughout the podcast, the hosts engage in playful conversations, adding a personal and entertaining touch to the episode.

Key Highlights:

• Shoe Packing Joke: Ben McMahon humorously discusses packing numerous pairs of shoes for the Finals.
• Movie Night Stories: The hosts reminisce about past movie nights during the Finals, sharing anecdotes and teasing each other about preferences.
• Aura Farming Discussion: A humorous exchange about the term “Aura Farming,” showcasing the hosts’ camaraderie and light-heartedness.

Notable Quote:

Ben McMahon: “Compare third year Jalen Williams to third year Scottie Pippen. That's all I'll say.” ([52:18])

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Conclusion: The episode provides an in-depth analysis of the Indiana Pacers' historic Finals victory over the New York Knicks, examining player performances, strategic trades, and future prospects for both teams. The hosts offer insightful commentary on the Eastern Conference landscape and make predictions for the next NBA season, all while maintaining an engaging and entertaining dialogue.

Transcript

[Unknown Sponsor]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Foreign welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we are doing on Saturday evening. Is it Sunday morning yet? Yes, it's Sunday morning. Joining us from Gaines, Gainbridge Fieldhouse. God, it's like an old man when I keep making.

[Tim Bontemps]

You better get it right, buddy. You're gonna.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. Gainbridge Field House in Indianapolis, site of Games 3 and 4 of the NBA Finals, home of the Eastern Conference champions. For the first time in 25 years, after the Indiana Pacers beat the New York Knicks in game six, is Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello, everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

Joining us from Dallas, Texas, where he's making plans to go to Indianapolis in about 10 days, is Ben McMahon.

[Ben McMahon]

Howdy, partners. I've had my hotel reservations and in Indy for at least a couple weeks now. Two, three weeks, you know, 49 states, it's just basketball, but we're going to Indiana.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, I know that Josh Hart announced after the game that he dislocated his finger. He's not the only guy who dislocated his finger today.

[Tim Bontemps]

True, it's true, true, true story.

[Ben McMahon]

A ring finger there.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, my God, that ring is not coming off anytime soon.

[Ben McMahon]

I can, I can get it off. But thing about it was we were on the losing side. Me, my boys, couple other kids. Josh Hart, Instant bun. Well, Josh Hart, no, I won the last one. We were on the losing side the game before and I had to kind of dominate the glass against all these.

[Brian Windhorst]

Middle school, against 12 year olds.

[Ben McMahon]

My matchup, my matchup was actually going to high school. But yeah, thought I jammed it. Looked down, my finger was pulling like a Sean Marion or Lionel Hollins kind of going the wrong direction. Just gave it a little yank and boom, it's right back in place. We did win the last game though.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's a Texan right there. Bon temps, pops.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'll say as I, I, I've covered Lionel Hollands, I've seen his fingers and I, I really hope it didn't look like that.

[Brian Windhorst]

And perk, perk.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, it happens. This one was temporary, just a few seconds.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, well, hopefully you'll be in good, good condition with your tier, for your tier, your typing, which you're going to be needed for, for the lead up to game one, which is coming up on Thursday night.

[Ben McMahon]

I thought they were sending Bond temps for me to dictate to so he could, he could actually.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, that's his job. Bond temps is good.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's absolutely not going to be my job. Absolutely not.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, well, let's get to business here. The Pacers played a very Pacers esque game in Game 6. They win by 17 and their speed, their speed game was back. Their turnover game was back. Their score off turnovers and score after made baskets was back. How many times Bond temps did they get a leak out after an inbound? It might have been four or five.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, look, all you got to say is fast break points, 25 to.

[Brian Windhorst]

10 and points off turnovers, 34. 13.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, I mean 34, I'd say. I mean let's, let's keep an eye on that. Points off, turnovers, that's going to be a pretty big key come finals. But dude, well, four and you're playing the Pacers. You might want to find Pascal Siakam. He's that really fast guy who's sprinting down toward the other end and if you don't sprint with him, he's going to get the ball and he's either going to dunk it or lay it up like he kept doing over and over again against these sloppy Cancun bound New York Knicks.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean, if you're the Knicks, I mean, look, we're going to talk plenty about the Pacers. This, this was just a giant, in my opinion, missed opportunity for the Knicks. I know the stat line at the end looks good for the Pacers. Obviously it was a comfortable win in the end. This was not a comfortable win for much of the game. The Pacers did not play very well despite hitting a bunch of threes in the first half. And the Knicks just kick this game away. They could not handle the ball. Like you said, McMahon, there were just constant breakouts off made baskets and off missed layups that turned into layups at the other end for Indiana. Just a ton of sloppy miscues both on defense and with the ball. I mean, 18 points, 18 turnovers for 34 Pacer points. Almost two points per turnover. I mean, the Knicks were very disappointed after the game and it's understandable why because they, they had an opportunity to extend the series and they did not come close to taking advantage of it.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not going to agree with you to say they gave it away, but they. The Pacers took it, but they certainly didn't. Didn't play a game that was suitable for what was needed here.

[Tim Bontemps]

My point is they had opportunities in the first half to take control of the game and really put the Pacers on the back foot. And they kept handing the game to the Pacers over and over and over again. And even in the second half, the Pacers kept trying to let the Knicks back in the game. And then they would just make two or three mistakes in a row and it would go from 9 or 10 to 18 again. Well, and won the game. To be clear, they deserve to win.

[Ben McMahon]

But, yeah, the Pacers pounced on every Knicks mistake in the second half. Every Knicks mistake a few seconds later is a wide open corner, three or four, a seokum dunker layup, you know, and then in the fourth quarter, like, okay, do you just want to. You want to play deep drop on Tyrese Halberton? Here's a floater for you. Here's a floater for you. Here's a.

[Brian Windhorst]

The fourth quarter defense, especially Carl Anthony Towns, was not the game.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean, at that point, the game was over. I mean, the game was over in the third quarter.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true. They started the second half, it was.

[Tim Bontemps]

A 9,090run,10 to start the half.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, that. That's pretty much where. Because the half, it was four points.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was a four point game. And you looked at it, and the Pacers had hit more than 50% of their threes, and the Knicks had done basically everything awfully, and we're down 4, and it was like, hey, if the Knicks actually play well in the third quarter, they got a chance here. And then immediately they come out, they give up a three. Carl Towns misses two free throws, they give up a three. Carl tries to drive into three guys and no hope. Turnover. And then Siakam flies down and gets an and one. Like, you know, like that just summed up the way the game went.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, Cat had a really crappy end to a great season. I mean, he ended up. His numbers look fine. 22 and 14. He did not play well in this game.

[Tim Bontemps]

So did Jalen Brunson. I mean, Jalen Brunson had a phenomenal season. And he had a game, too. I mean, just five turnovers. Very sloppy with the ball. Uncharacteristically so. And I mean, O.J. anunoby was great, but. And look, if you want to get down to it, I Mean, the, the difference in the series in a lot of ways is the Knicks traded a lot of picks for Mikhail Bridges, and the Pacers traded a lot of picks for Pascal Siakam. Yeah, and Pascal Siakam played like a guy you trade a lot of picks for. Then Mikhail Bridges didn't.

[Brian Windhorst]

Looks like a. You say a lot of picks, Stockham looks like a discount compared to what they gave.

[Tim Bontemps]

I understand that, but my point is, both teams pushed their chips in to make a trade for a guy they thought was going to push him ahead, and Pascal Siakam played like it in this series, and it's a huge part of why the Pacers were in the Finest.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about Siakam in a minute. Bridges had five turnovers as well. The Pacers, especially Andrew Nemhardt, Aaron Neesmith, regardless of where his ankle was, I don't know how much it was affecting him the last couple games, but he got into foul trouble early on, and.

[Tim Bontemps]

So he was just bad early on. I mean, he got blown by. By Jalen Brunson in the first two possessions of the game. They just took him right off of him, putting them hard right on him then.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I'm not sure if his ankle is affecting him or not. I don't know.

[Ben McMahon]

But I saw he said after the game that he definitely needs this little break between series.

[Brian Windhorst]

He banged his knee in the second half as well. But the point is, Andrew Nemhardt was a primary defender on Jalen Brunson for most of this game, and Nemhard was spectacular in all facets of this game. And he had six steals, which he probably affected another six possessions that, you know, either resulted in a turnover elsewhere or disrupted the Knicks. And, and what I think is the defining moment in the game. He. I don't know who he actually technically picked his pocket. I don't know who got credit for the turnover. Probably Brunson, because it was the off screen. But he picked Brunson's pocket and got a breakout layup in the third quarter. And Brunson. And then he was, you know, even though Brunson didn't have the ball, he was, you know, face guarding him from 90ft up the court. And Brunson got so frustrated that he headbutted him.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, and Brunson is typically a pretty unflappable dude. Right, Mart absolutely got under his skin tonight, without question, and affected his game and, you know, was a big part of the Pacers closing this series out. You know, also had eight assists, by the way. 14 points, eight assists, six deals. You know, for a guy you consider, I don't know, fourth starter, maybe even fifth starter. Heck of a performance to just put.

[Brian Windhorst]

A bow on the Knicks. Honestly, you know, I'm seeing a lot of criticism of them and this was a series that was close. They were. These teams were pretty comparable. But there, there are, is. Are. Were whatever scenarios in which the Knicks could have won this series specifically had they not let game one go through their fingers.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

But I will just say I don't think it's fair to discount how well the Pacers played in, in. In the series at large. Writ large, I should say. And I also.

[Tim Bontemps]

Pacers controlled. But the Pacers controlled the run of play in five of the six games. Like they, they dictated the way the game was. I should say four of the six games because most of game one, they didn't. But the Pacers, by and large dictated how the series was going to be played. That's why they won the series. They were the better team.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would say. Yeah, I. Game one, I don't know if I would say. Yeah, they, the two games they, they once game they scored 101. Game, they scored 94. The Knicks controlled the pace of play and game one could have gone the Knicks.

[Ben McMahon]

So I'm, I know this Pacers had a chance to close out tonight. Came in wearing all black. Coaching staff wore all black and Reggie.

[Brian Windhorst]

Miller.

[Ben McMahon]

Unbiased Reggie Miller on the TNT broadcast.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, look, what do you want to say? He. I did not think he was biased on the broadcast and he played there for 18 years. What do you want? But anyway, I was saying is, you know, the proper team won. The team that performed better. One, the Knicks could have won this series. They needed to play better. They didn't. However, they had an excellent playoffs and they had a strong season. They had issues in the regular season against the top teams, but they had a strong playoffs. And I'm seeing a lot of anti tib stuff out there. And yeah, you can present a case that he didn't touch all the right buttons here, but he also made a lot of changes during the course of this series to try to figure out the Pacers. He changed his starting lineup, he expanded his rotation, he made over the game plans. You know, Tibbs did some coaching in this series and it wasn't perfect. I agree. And you know, I'm not. I'm just saying, like, you know, I'm seeing this. What I think is an unfounded swell against him and an unfounded swell against the Knicks. Like, you know, they have a challenge on their team, which is that they have a couple of weaker defensive players that in a playoff setting can be picked on. And it sets the standard for their offensive play to be very, very high at the highest level against the best teams. Not necessarily against every team, but against the best teams. The standard that they have to hit offensively to make up for their defensive issues is very high. And that is one of the big challenges with this team. But despite that, I think that they achieved extraordinarily well throughout the course of the season in this playoffs. And again, it's revisionist history to say that they won the Celtics series because of injuries. They were going to be up 3:1 when Jayson Tatum was unfortunately injured. Jalen Brown, I see people saying that Jaylen Brown had a bad knee. Jaylen Brown was awesome in game five. He, his knee may have been affecting him a little bit. He was, he was excellent. Poor Zingus was off.

[Tim Bontemps]

But yeah, this is kind of a weird Jag. I mean, the Knicks had a weird season, right? They had a, they had a good season, but they had a weird season. They couldn't beat any good teams in the regular season. They then had a up and down first round series against the Pistons where they, you know, they got through it, but it wasn't easy.

[Brian Windhorst]

One they, they did.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just saying it was a hard fought six game series.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Then they had an extraordinarily strange series against the Celtics where they got outplayed for the vast majority of the first five games and then won the last game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Strange. I say winning.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, they won. They won. Yes, they won the games and then they blew them out in game six. And then they got handled pretty consistently throughout the conference finals.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't know. No, I don't agree. They were the better in two of the games and they botched one.

[Ben McMahon]

They, they got breaks and created their own breaks to get home court advantage in the conference finals and they went home in six games. So all in all, good season. But you can have a good season. That's also disappointing because they had a golden opportunity in front of them. They couldn't take advantage of it. And you know, season on the line tonight. They got their butts kicked pretty soundly by the Pacers and especially, I mean, the second half, it just got absolutely dominated and it was dominated by like they were sloppy. They were sloppy defensively. They were sloppy with the ball.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, they did not put their best foot forward.

[Ben McMahon]

Their transition.

[Brian Windhorst]

This was their, this was their worst game of the series.

[Ben McMahon]

They didn't want to see the Oklahoma City Thunder with that transition defense. Like.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean, look, they. I mean, they. They were. They were pretty soundly beaten in the series. I mean, they just were. So I think they could have won the series.

[Brian Windhorst]

I am sorry. I disagree. They were beaten, yes, but they were. They were just demonstratively better in two of the six games than the one game. They had a historic blow.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, they were demonstrably better in Game 1 and blew the game. They were demonstrably better in game five. They got beat pretty soundly on their home court in game two.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, they definitely.

[Tim Bontemps]

Game three, they were bad for three quarters, and then Carl Towns had 20 points in the fourth quarter and they won.

[Ben McMahon]

All right, this will make Knicks fans feel better. If not for that historic choke job in. In Game one where Tyrese Halliburton. Rub it in your faces. Yeah, in. In the Garden arena, you know, the whole crowd's faces with the choke thing. It's not that epic choke job. This would be going back to Madison Square Garden. I'll make those trash tossers feel better.

[Tim Bontemps]

Look, the. The thing is, like, again, the Knicks had a good season. It was, I think, a hard season to read on what their actual level is. The fact that the Celtics are probably not going to be in the mix next year. I think, as of right now, if you look at the east, the Pacers, to me, are the clear team to look at as the favorites going into next season. Understandably so. And then you've got the Cavs and the Knicks, the two teams that lost to them that in a lot of ways had the same problem, which was an inability to guard at the highest level when it mattered. And this summer, the Knicks have their top seven guys. They're very good. The Mikhail Bridges trade was not a good trade, but at this point, it is what it is. And they have the ability to go out and add depth to the roster. And like, look, for example, Al Horford is a free agent. I don't think at this point it makes a lot of sense for Al Horford to be back in Boston. Maybe he will be, but given where things are with the Celtics, I think he's now much more in play than he might have been a month ago. Al Horford is a longtime friend of Karl Towns, has played with him at the Dominican national team for a long time. If they go get Al Horford this summer, who I think would be an unbelievable fit on this Knicks roster, and they go get another perimeter player to deepen their rotation and they have a bench of Al Horford, another ball handler, Deuce McBride and Mitchell Robinson to go with their starting five. That's a much better team. That's a team that could beat the Pacers next year. That's a team that'll be in the mix in the East.

[Ben McMahon]

So if they go. What if they go much bigger than that and they shake up this core and they go get somebody else who the Pacers eliminated.

[Tim Bontemps]

I just don't. I mean, look, I'm not going to rule anything out, but I think the Knicks, the Mikhail Bridges trade really put the Knicks in a bind because they put all their chips on the table to get Mikhail Bridges. They don't really have the draft capital necessary to make that kind of swing. So, sure, I'm not ruling anything out. We saw Luca get traded. Anything is possible, but I think it's more likely. If you look at this Knicks team, they have the tax mid level exception they can use. They have playing time available. They're in New York City. Like they should be able to get depth on the roster after their top seven guys. And if they add some depth to the roster beyond their top seven, so they're not having Delon Wright taking open threes in the second half of the game that ended their season. Look, the line. Wright and Landry Shamit played well for them and changed a lot of these games. But if those spots in the rotation are significantly upgraded, this Knicks team looks a lot different and perhaps this series looks a lot different. But they have. They and the Cavs go into next season looking up at Indiana with the same question. Can we guard them well enough to beat them four out of seven. And as of right now, the answer for both those teams is a pretty resounding no.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, we also have to see the Knicks, as you said, are going to have their top seven. And if they choose to, we'll be able to bring them back and add to it. The Celtics. I don't know if I can say that. I would say, well, they're not.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I mean, they're just. They're not. But we're not counting this. The Celtics are set aside.

[Ben McMahon]

The other team that he mentioned.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I know, I know. Well, the Celtics are going to have to take some pieces off. We know Tatum will be out for a long time and they may have to lose a piece or two. The Cavs may have to lose a piece or two. I'm not sure. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I'm not 100% sure that the Pacers will come back now. I think that they will go into the tax. I did a story last week that where the Pacers are expecting to have ownership approval to go into the tax for the first time in 20 years. They were lasting the tax in the 20 in the 20045 season, which was the Malice in the palace year where they had lost in the conference finals the year before. They went to the tax that year. I wrote about it. They were largely in the tax because of the contract that they gave Austin Crozier after the last he he had like a brilliant they lost the 2000 finals to the Lakers, but Crozier had a brilliant Finals and then they gave him a huge contract and that was sort of near the end of it. And anyway, they haven't been in the tax since and they've paid less than $10 million in the tax in the history of the franchise.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, a Finals run justifies those kind of things.

[Brian Windhorst]

And I agree. And so Miles Turner and as long.

[Tim Bontemps]

As Miles Turner is back, they also could make a move to get out of the tax and not really mess up their team.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. But I would just say that from what I am told, the hope and belief and whatever is that ownership will greenlight them going a little bit into the tax for a little. For a little while.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, and that's good. Ownership also greenlighted a trade for Pascal Siakam knowing there was going to be a max contract essentially as part of that deal. And and that is a move. Let's talk about that more Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

And so I would also just, just to pause real quick. Yeah, but the Raptors traded away OG Anunoby, Pascal Siakam and Fred Van Vliet, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

They didn't trade away. He walked.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well and he walked and all three of those guys were on 50 win teams this year. I know like, I don't know. Like why did it just been a good idea for the Raptors to pay those guys stay on the team?

[Brian Windhorst]

So I'm going to tell you, I don't want to get basically they basically turn.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just saying they basically turned Pascal Siakam into Brandon Ingram and basketball. Siakam is a lot better than Brandon Ingram.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hold on. I don't want to get too far afield from this, but since this has come up, the Raptors are a team that is starting to make noise within the league about looking for a big fish. And you know, and I think because and I don't want to get away from this but I've started it myself. If you're an Eastern Conference team that's in the middle of the pack, you're looking at the teams in front of you going some of them may not be able to come together. Maybe I'll stay together. Boston is hurt and so there are some teams that sniff the ability to make a move and I think Toronto is one of those teams. And so naturally any team that wants to make a move this summer, especially team in the Eastern Conference, you're going to have Giannis on The board. But Toronto I think is going to try. From their initial conversations, teams in the league are getting the impression that Toronto is going to try to do something. I had an executive tell me yesterday that he thinks this could be, could be, could be an explosive summer. You know, just as what Sean said the other day. But like this, you know, this is the whole league that people are saying that there's, this is. The amount of activity and calls happening in the league right now is a much higher volume than has been in years past.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's what we've been saying for six months.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know. Does not mean it's going to happen. But Toronto is one of those teams that is sitting there on the balls of its feet, which is interesting because it's kind of like hearing Sacrament because Sacramento is one of them too. I don't think that's breaking news. And the funny thing of course is that Sacramento wants a point guard.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, hey.

[Brian Windhorst]

So here's Toronto looking for a big fish when they've got a big fish in the finals. Who won Eastern Conference Finals mvp?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, and by the way, the one guy we didn't talk about who was absolutely awesome today was OG Anunoby who was awesome for the Knicks and had a great season. And you know, again, like you have those three guys with Scotty Barnes, it would look pretty good.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, who would you rather have for the next three years? Pascal Siakam or Brandon Ingram by a mile?

[Ben McMahon]

You mean the guy who's like impacted playoff winning?

[Tim Bontemps]

The guy went 2610 in a finals. The guy who had 26 and 10 in game six of the NBA finals and had three 30 point games in this series. Yeah, yeah, I'll take that guy.

[Ben McMahon]

And look, please, like you know, you. The, The Eastern Conference MVP Finals vote was 5 to 4 Siakam over Halliburton. If it had gone the other way, fine. Halliburton definitely took a step forward and they said Eastern Conference Finals MVP and then took a step back with Pascal Siakam. But dude, Siakam was awesome in every win they had in this series. And he's a guy who you don't have to like tailor everything to him. You don't have to like run everything any really hardly any plays for him. He's just outrunning everybody, scoring in transition, picking stuff up in, in garbage and then you know, taking advantage of some opportunities in the half court. But he's a huge matchup problem. A good defensive player now.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, well, Brandon INGRAM the next three years will make 40 million on average.

[Ben McMahon]

And you have to, you have to. Ingram has to have the ball. Siakam can impact games with that and.

[Tim Bontemps]

And he doesn't shoot threes. And he's not a great defender like Pascal's just a clearly better player. And to get into what you said, McMahon, to shift back to the Pacers, like the thing about the Pacers is like they are this symbiotic unit where everybody sort of flows into everybody else as the game is going on. And they have Halliburton obviously at the controls and then they've got four guys around him who can shoot and guard and so. And run. So he's very willing to kick it up to Andrew Nemhardt or to kick it up to Siakam. I mean they're, especially with Siakam going up against Carl Towns. There's three or four possessions a game where Pascal's catching it essentially in a one on one situation against either Carl Towns or Jalen Brunson or Mikhail Bridges and he can just go by them to the rim and it's an easy eight points. And that's just because of the way that the Pacers play. And it's because his ability.

[Brian Windhorst]

Point guard, his point guard in Toronto, they let go. So Look, Ingram's making 40 million over the next three. Siakam's making 48. So it's more money, but you know.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I don't think.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's not even a conversation.

[Ben McMahon]

We haven't seen Ingram play since. I don't. Oh, actually I do remember when. Early December. I was there and we just watched siakam go for 31 in a conference finals clincher tonight. And just wear the the Knicks out with his relentless energy throughout a six game series. The stat from Jack that Jackson put in the chat kind of sums up the series. Pacers outscore the Knicks by 74 points in transition in a six game series, including 31 tonight. 31 points advantage. You're not gonna.

[Tim Bontemps]

And it felt like 31 points tonight.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Now felt like it.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'll be in the standing. Gundy was losing his mind. Every time the Pacers got a, got.

[Ben McMahon]

An outlet, dude, it's off made baskets. He's just running go routes. And if you don't run with them, they'll kick it up to them. So dunking.

[Brian Windhorst]

So bon temps. The vote tonight for conference finals MVP was there was nine voters.

[Tim Bontemps]

Stupid award every year.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, stop crying.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm not crying. It just becomes a controversy every year.

[Brian Windhorst]

Who's the name we're going to talk about? I don't I don't think it's a controversy that much. So the vote was five to four. Halliburton got four votes, Siakam got five. You had a vote. You voted for Siakam. You and the other four voters who voted for Siakam each cast a deciding vote. Not one person did. Yes, and I will just say I don't. I don't. I thought, you know, if Jackson could edit this out, but you asked McMahon and I for our opinion, and McMahon and I both said we would vote for Siakam. So I'll tie myself.

[Tim Bontemps]

I asked. I asked several people and they all said Siakam.

[Ben McMahon]

Siakam was unanimous in the group chat, for sure.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And by the way, a vote for Tyrese Halliburton isn't a bad vote. Like, he.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, yeah, it's fine.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, like, if it was five, awesome. Yeah, sure. So. But why don't you use this forum to discuss your reasons for going with Siakam? Just, look, I just deal with that.

[Tim Bontemps]

I certainly think you could vote for Halliburton. He obviously had one of the greatest games you'll see offensively, like we talked about in Game four. I just thought Siakam was the most consistent player on the team throughout the series. He had 30 points at three different games. He won them game two. His 39 points in game two. Like you talk about game one. Yes, the Pacers blew game one. The rest of the paces were not very good in Game two. But, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry that the Knicks blew Game one. The Pacers stole it. Yeah, the rest of the paces were not very good in Game two and Pascal Siakam stole Game two. Matt wound up. I mean, he was a monster in that game. And then, you know, had another 30 in game four alongside Halliburton. And then tonight, the game was over after 3/4 because Pascal Siaka had 26 and was awesome in the game again. And his ability to break down Carl Towns in the half court and to get out and score buckets was a big deciding factor in the series. And again, you want to say Halberton's at the controls. He should get it totally fine. You know, but he's awesome. Would have been totally fine, but that was why voted for Seok.

[Brian Windhorst]

Sounds good to me. Congrats to both of them. Congrats to the Pacers for winning and.

[Tim Bontemps]

The fact that those two guys were tied at the hip like that. I mean, it. Full credit to the Pacers front office. Like when they got him. Ever since they Got Tyrese Haliburton in here. They have done a tremendous job of putting a team around him where all these pieces fit. And, you know, Miles Turner talked about it after the game, said he, he believes the Pacers are a team that the modern game is sort of modeled toward. And with the new realities with the cba, not having a, quote, unquote, super team and having a younger team with a bunch of guys that fit and get along and play well together is a model to look at going forward. I think there's a lot of truth in that. I think, like we've talked a lot, there's a lot of similarities between the two teams that are going to play in the finals and the way they're built and the way they play. And, you know, I think one of them is demonstrably better than the other one. And I don't think the finals is going to be particularly long. But that doesn't change the fact that, like I said earlier, you look at this Pacers team like as of today, yes, there's a million things that still have to happen between now and this time next year, but the Pacers, as of now, to me, are the clear team to look at going into the next season to be back in this position again. And that's a credit to the job Rick Carlisle's done, the job the front office has done, and obviously this group led by Halliburton and Siakam and the way they play and how much of a hard time they've given all these teams the last couple years in the.

[Ben McMahon]

Playoffs that they changed the franchise when they made the trade for Halliburton and then they built a roster around him that maximizes his skill set and is a great fit in the modern day NBA where it is about pace and space and depth. And they've got all three of those things, you know, and Haliburn is the, you know, he's the engine of the whole thing. But Siakam is, is the guy who, you know, that trade vaulted them into a. Hey, that's a cute little playoff team to. Okay, that's a team that can do some damage.

[Brian Windhorst]

So, by the way, the Siakam trade, they gave what they ended up in the summer of 23. They had $20 million in cap space that nobody really wanted. And so they gave it all to Bruce Brown and basically, maybe Bruce Brown would have worked out as a $20 million player. As it turned out, they basically bought someone to trade with that money.

[Ben McMahon]

They signed a human trade exception, right?

[Brian Windhorst]

And Bruce, who Had not made a ton of money. Was happy to take the money.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Ben McMahon]

And remember the Nuggets? I forgot the exact number but it was a fraction of. The Nuggets can only offer a fraction of that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right, right. It wasn't, they didn't, you know, they had to, he had, everybody had to do what they did there. So there were, there were three first round picks in that deal that they also sent. Two of them were from last year. And I, I know that the pick that the, that the actual Indiana pick.

[Ben McMahon]

They took, Isaiah Collier, name one was moved to Jacoby. Jacoby Walter.

[Brian Windhorst]

Jacoby Walter who?

[Ben McMahon]

And then Isaiah Collier, which that was. I forgot whose pick it was. Obviously it was a, it was a late first round pick. I think that it was an OKC pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

I believe actually that's right.

[Tim Bontemps]

They line up with Utah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. So. And they've got a pick next year that's I think protected. That's one thing about the Mikhail Bridges trade. We have no idea what the unprotected picks that the Knicks gave for that deal, what they will turn into down the line. But The Knicks gave two picks in the 2025 draft. Those are the first two assets that they gave in that and the picks and are are right now the 19th and 26th picks. They also gave Bogdan Bogdanov, I'm sorry, Boyan Bogdanovich, who The Nets paid $20 million this year and he never played a second and they couldn't trade him because he got re injured and had to have a second surgery.

[Ben McMahon]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

So I will just say for all I know those Knicks picks will be lottery picks and the Nets will be laughing all the way to the bank. I'm just saying that the price paid for Siakam, I had to look up who it was.

[Ben McMahon]

It wasn't that hard. It was a human trade exception.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right, I know. And then I'm just saying, you know.

[Ben McMahon]

Later, first round picks, one very late, one fairly late in a draft considered week and then a 2026 pick.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

For a guy who pushed again, for all I know that the 19th pick in this draft, the Nets will take a player who ends up being a nine time all star.

[Tim Bontemps]

I, I just another reminder that if you make a trade like that does whatever, whether it's three picks, five picks, seven picks, whatever, you've got to hit on it because you only have really probably one chance to really push in two or three or more picks to go get a difference making player. But when you get a guy that's just okay, you're it's going to end up not. Look whether whatever the value of the picks, it's not about that. It's about what is the return on the player you get. And in this case, the Pacers got a guy in Pascal Siakam, who as you said, big band. They leveled up when they got Siakam.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Now they're a team that's been in the conference finals last year and in the NBA Finals now for the first time in a quarter century.

[Ben McMahon]

And when the Pacers made that trade, they knew roughly the value of the two picks that were given up.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right.

[Ben McMahon]

Beers draft. The risk there wasn't. Oh my gosh, they're giving up three first round picks. The risk was, okay, the Raptors don't want to max this guy. Do you really think Pascal Siakam is a max player? And as he's holding that Eastern Conference Finals MVP trophy tonight, I damn sure felt like he was a max player.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, and it's a reminder of too, again, like, I think Carlisle made a joke about it today that it took him a couple of weeks to get used to playing with the Pacers because they were playing so much faster than Toronto was with them. Right. And I, I think that's where the Pacers, I think deserve credit because they've looked at Siakam in his skill set and said if we plug him in with a, with a space big and Miles Turner and with Nemhardt and Halliburton and these guys who move the ball up the court like this, this is going to be a perfect fit in the way we want to play. And it's made Pascal an even better player than he was at Toronto. He was already a great player there. It's just a hand in glove fit and it's, it really speaks to them, understanding what they needed on the roster and going out and getting it.

[Brian Windhorst]

So from the Raptors perspective, since we've been a little hard on them, I will say that they used next year's draft pick, which is top four protected, and Bruce Brown to get Brandon Ingram. So they, they, you could argue that they basically traded Siakam.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's what I said a half an hour ago. That's literally what I said.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

And that, that was what started the whole discussion.

[Ben McMahon]

And, and okay. Yeah, but I didn't understand what Ingram does in Toronto. But again, that gets back to yes. Would you rather have. And I don't think that's really, that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

Not a debate right now for sure. And it's, and look, I Just know.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Raptors fans are a little bit sensitive and. Okay, I haven't talked about them for months, and they're gonna.

[Tim Bontemps]

Raptors. The Raptors fans will be. The Raptors fans will be a. Okay.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, they'll be just fine. They're. They're enjoying watching the playoffs on their couches, as they always do, or at least as they have for the last.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, there's a Canadian team in the Stanley cup finals, I believe.

[Ben McMahon]

Oh, nobody gives a crap about hockey, Aaron.

[Brian Windhorst]

Your team in Dallas just got eliminated. They were in the west, and I.

[Ben McMahon]

Did not give a crap. That's my point.

[Brian Windhorst]

I couldn't name one Dallas star. Pastor present. Sorry.

[Ben McMahon]

I can. You can name Mike Madonna.

[Brian Windhorst]

I wouldn't have been able to name.

[Ben McMahon]

He's got a statue out there next to Dirk. But like I told you, I was, I was, I was actually banned from the Dallas Morning News hockey coverage after one game. I was called in the office and told I could no longer cover it because I, I was live blogging. I kept asking if they were skates during the halftime show. One of those metro editors who finds him. You know, here's the thing. I'll just tell you real honestly, like Texas folks who are hockey fans, it's because they don't know anything about real sports.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, my God.

[Ben McMahon]

They don't know crap about football. They don't know crap about basketball. They don't know crap about baseball. And Toronto.

[Tim Bontemps]

Toronto back to the finals anytime soon? Because if McMahon is at the finals in Toronto, he's gonna get taken down.

[Ben McMahon]

Hockey's like this newfangled hipster thing down here in Texas.

[Brian Windhorst]

They've been there 25 or 30 years.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay, that's fairly newfangled to me. I was a teenager when they started bringing these stupid hockey fans.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was a long time ago, buddy.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay, well, I have not grown up since then.

[Tim Bontemps]

That, that part.

[Ben McMahon]

But my point is this.

[Tim Bontemps]

That part is definitely.

[Ben McMahon]

Hockey is a hipster sport in Texas.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, that may be true. I don't know. I don't live there. All right, let's talk about the old NBA Finals, which start on Thursday. Game one. Pacers at Thunder. I'm just going to say right now, I know they both traded for Paul George. We got it. Move on. Got it. That's right. Move on. I, I. How many times are we going to hear about that story in the next five days?

[Ben McMahon]

Hey, did you know this? Breaking news. Speaking of Canadians, Shea Gildas. Alexander and Nikhil Alexander. Walker Cousins.

[Brian Windhorst]

Exactly. Same, same, Same file. Yeah, I know that Also here's something else. I know that Indiana and Oklahoma City are small markets. Oh, I get it. I get that. The ratings would have been higher if it was warriors against Celtics. Got it. Thank you.

[Ben McMahon]

The Knicks didn't.

[Brian Windhorst]

I just want to say something else. While everybody talks about how the NBA is going to suffer because of ratings.

[Ben McMahon]

They'Ve just signed a TV deal.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, but I'm gonna say something else. I don't care what year it is. I don't care what the TV deal is.

[Tim Bontemps]

The league got a lot of soapboxing from winning.

[Brian Windhorst]

First off, it doesn't. First off, it doesn't even matter. Like what does it matter to either team, how long the series goes? It doesn't matter. But for people who are going to want people on the coasts who are going to want to badmouth this Finals because it's small markets, let me say this. I don't care what anybody says. I don't care if it's David Stern's dream of Lakers playing Lakers. The thing that you want from a business perspective and again, I don't know why people care about it, but I'm just going to get out of the way now.

[Ben McMahon]

Go.

[Brian Windhorst]

When you go, the thing that you want is volume. The NBA, guess what?

[Tim Bontemps]

They're not going to get volume.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, they got a better chance of getting volume with the Pacers than they did with the Knicks.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah, the Knicks transition.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't think. Here's what I would say.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, you may be right about that. But I'm telling you, the Pacers a better challenge.

[Tim Bontemps]

Watching this game today. I don't know how anybody could watch these two teams and think that there should be a serious challenge to the Thunder in the finals.

[Ben McMahon]

I, I will say this. I don't think that the Pacers are just going to be able to run fast and get layups. I think, I think it's going to be a, I think that top ranked Thunder defense will put up a few more ob and I'm not saying that's.

[Tim Bontemps]

The only way they can score. And to be clear, they got a.

[Ben McMahon]

Lot of easy, easy, easy buckets in this series.

[Tim Bontemps]

Super easy. And the Pacers, the Pacer were awesome in the series, have been awesome in the playoffs, are in an awesome team. But the Thunder have been challenged by exactly one team and they have an inevitable force on their team who nearly took them down single handedly and they have, they tore through Minnesota, which I would say is a similar level team to both Indiana and New York and I expect them to tear through Indiana.

[Brian Windhorst]

You may in fact be correct about that. The only point I want to get out five days before the final start is that you would the NBA, no matter what anybody says, trust me, as somebody who's done it for over 20 years, the NBA would rather have Toronto playing against New Orleans going seven games than they would have the Lakers playing against the Knicks going four.

[Ben McMahon]

So what you're saying is this might be a worst case scenario. Well, markets doesn't last long.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well again that could be true.

[Ben McMahon]

But Jackson's got a prediction.

[Tim Bontemps]

Jackson called very Thunder and five.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, that's a, that's going to be a hot take.

[Ben McMahon]

Wendy told me he thought Thunder in three.

[Brian Windhorst]

I did not say that. I think the pa. I will say this. Just want to point something out. The Thunder are 80 and 18 this year and they went 29 and one against the Eastern Conference. The idea that they will lose 4 out of 7 is hard to see.

[Ben McMahon]

It is far fetched.

[Brian Windhorst]

But I will also say that I want to see that, that Tyrese Halliburton led the NBA in assist to turnover ratio. So yeah, let's see the best guy taking care of the ball, high volume. At least taking care of the ball. Go up against the greatest ball hawking team I've ever seen.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's going to be super fun. And we've talked about it even during this series. Like the relentlessness with which the Pacers play on offense is matched by the relentlessness with which the Thunder play on defense. And both these teams pressure full court. Both these teams use their depth. I, you know, it should be, I think a really fun series to watch and I'm excited to watch it from a basketball standpoint. And like I said, my, my thoughts on how long the series are going to go is not a, is not a denigration of the Pacers. It's that the Thunder were a 68 win team. And I, you know, we talked about it all year. I thought it was sort of silly the way that they were treated by most of the people in and around the league most of the year where it was treated like the Western Conference was wide open all year when it was. It was insane to have that conversation.

[Ben McMahon]

Who, who, who is marching? Who, who's the drum major for that one?

[Tim Bontemps]

Everyone was doing it. It was, it wasn't one person.

[Ben McMahon]

I kept turning on TV and there was one person on there just telling.

[Tim Bontemps]

Us there were, there were a lot of people saying it. There were teams in the league saying it, players in the league saying it, media people saying it. That like it and it, you know, again there. I suspect that in a couple of weeks we're going to be looking at the end of the playoffs and going Nicole Jokic almost pulled off something remarkable. Well, in the second round and it wasn't for Lou Dort, this all might have looked a lot different.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. Bonus. A rare gold star for you, Bon Temps. Oh, if I was a Nuggets fan, I don't know what would have happened if the Nuggets had played the Celtics in the finals last year. I just want to point out that the only team that the Celtics didn't beat last year was the Nuggets.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

And Jokic was.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I don't think they would have beat the Nuggets either. I mean, we'll see. But that was the one team I didn't think they were going to beat last year.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I, I don't know what happened. And I, you know, you know how I feel about there's no asterisks on not at all.

[Tim Bontemps]

No asterisk whatsoever.

[Brian Windhorst]

Say that if you're a Nuggets fan, you got to be thinking about had they not dropped that ridiculous lead balloon in the second half of Game seven to this, would they have won that second title? And watching the way Oklahoma City just tore through Minnesota, even though Minnesota was a tough matchup for Denver, we'll never know.

[Tim Bontemps]

And it's just a reminder that even for teams as good as that Lou Dort hitting a bunch of threes in the fourth quarter of Game five save their season.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, and I'm just saying that.

[Tim Bontemps]

Denver, that's how this stuff works.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, look, I remember what Calvin Booth, the now deposed general manager, said in that interview with the Ringer, which I will refer to maybe for the next decade, where he said, if we handle. If we handle our business, the the essence of the quote was if we handle our business, there's no reason why we shouldn't win three or four. And I agreed. But they didn't. They haven't handled their business.

[Ben McMahon]

Nope.

[Tim Bontemps]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this for.

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

The new McCrispy Strip is here. Dip approved by Ketchup Tangy Barbecue Honey Mustard honey mustard, Sprite, McFlurry Big Mac sauce Double dipped in Buffalo and Ranch More Ranch and Creamy Chili McCrispy Strip Dip now at McDonald's.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, and then now let me ask you this. If the Thunder handle their business, how.

[Tim Bontemps]

Many should they well, listen, there's we're on. We're not only in the seventh. We're gonna have a seventh straight year with a a new champion. I think we're also in a sixth straight year going back to 2019 when the warriors made the finals, that the team that won the title didn't get out of the second round. There's. I find it very hard to believe sitting here right now that both those streaks are not in serious jeopardy.

[Ben McMahon]

I'm just telling you.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I'm going to tell you I've.

[Ben McMahon]

Got to win one before we can start talking.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, no, for sure. Absolutely. You have to. But it's all, as we said, a lot. It's all sitting there for him.

[Brian Windhorst]

I want to. I'm going to say that people in the league think this could be an explosive summer. So it's. No, we can't have any idea what the league is going to look.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I'll tell you, I. You. I'll say right now. Say right now. Let's say if the Thunder do what we expect and win four More games. You can take the field and turn whatever happens this summer. And I'm taking the Thunder.

[Ben McMahon]

Now, what you're going to have in that case is a team that won 84 games and their top, their oldest player is 31.

[Tim Bontemps]

They have two players who are 30 or older. Every other player on the team is 27 and under. And they've got draft picks and a lottery pick who's playing next year and young guys that are all getting better. And oh, by the way, the MVP of the league. Like, I mean, who.

[Ben McMahon]

Also the MVP of the league who, who is a young guy still who is getting better.

[Brian Windhorst]

And they won six games contract, by.

[Tim Bontemps]

The way, by, by six to eight games. With the two centers missing half the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Year, by July 15th, they could extend the contracts of all three of their young stars.

[Ben McMahon]

Yeah. Who are all getting better. Jayden Williams getting like leaps and bounds better every year.

[Tim Bontemps]

And, and look for. And again, like go back to 2012. We thought the Thunder were going to be back a lot. They weren't. It's. It's very hard. You have to get lucky. All these things are true. But it's all. For all the other chaos that's going on. And there's going to be probably chaos this summer. The. They're. The. The era of parody could quickly be coming to an end.

[Ben McMahon]

Compare third year Jalen Williams to third year Scottie Pippen. That's all I'll say.

[Brian Windhorst]

Whoa.

[Ben McMahon]

All I'll say.

[Tim Bontemps]

I look forward to the Pacers winning the finals at six, by the way.

[Ben McMahon]

Right, Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, look, I will say this.

[Ben McMahon]

Rick Carlisle has delayed a super team before.

[Tim Bontemps]

He certainly has. He certainly has. He certainly has.

[Brian Windhorst]

When we get to July 12, which is when our live show is in Las Vegas, the MGM Grand.

[Ben McMahon]

Ooh, good plug.

[Brian Windhorst]

When we get to July 12, could the Thunder have won the championship? Could the Thunder have re signed their three stars? Are they rolling out their lottery pick from last year that they kept on ice this year as he was recovering from a torn acl. Nikola topic and rotation.

[Ben McMahon]

He might have to roll out for the, for the blue.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, or maybe he, he was the best player in Europe last year. Or maybe he looks great. I mean, he also may not play in summer leagues. He may be playing for Serbia. I don't know. But. Right, but I'm just going to say they have a lottery pick this year that they had on ice that they were able to draft that he slipped back to them because he had the torn ACL. And who knows who they draft with the 15th pick for all I know, they'll package some stuff and there's a player they'll move up for.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, or they'll move back and just keep having more and more picks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Whatever. I'm just saying, like what if they roll out two draft. What if they roll out two guys in summer league that we don't even know yet that are like, that look great. Like that's, that's not far fetched.

[Ben McMahon]

Here's the kind of problem Sam Presti has. He has to extend these guys who are max and or supermax players and he has these two picks in this year's draft where a full roster is coming back and no guys he wants to get rid of.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, oh, and look, and for, for, because we keep talking about all the chaos this summer. Right. And by the way, the live show link is hooplive.eventbrite.com thank you to Jackson for being on top of it, as always. The reason the chaos is happening this summer is because you now look at the Eastern Conference and yes, the Pacers right now look like the favorites, but the east is as you said, Brian, all these teams in the middle tier in the east are going to look at it and say the Celtics are now at least temporarily on hold and there's an opening to make a run. And out west you've got this feeding frenzy of teams that are both just trying to make the play in, make the playoffs, get into, get it out of the first round of the playoffs, while also looking up at this potential behemoth above them and saying, well, what are we going to do to try to keep up with that? Like so there, all of that sets up for a lot of teams looking to do a lot of stuff which in turn could lead to a lot of action.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. Well, you have a sandwich effect. The second apron pressing down. The teams are in the second apron, Phoenix, Minnesota, Boston, trying to get out of it. I think all three of them are going to try to get out of it. You got a couple of teams headed into the second apron. I think Cleveland one more. But the second apron is nowhere you want to be for long. So you're going to constantly have teams at the top, you know, potentially squeezing out talent. And then you have some teams that have kind of gone all in over the last couple of years, don't like their hand and are going to maybe try to exit out. There's a few that I Suspect could see 13 teams trying to win in the west next year and they go, you know what, actually probably 14 teams because I think Portland probably thinks it can win after the way they finished. I don't know if they've got enough talent to compete. But Finch the other day said it was 15. I. I'm not. I'm.

[Ben McMahon]

I'll remove Utah from now on. Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

So. But let's just. Let's just throw the six Blazers a bone and say there's 14 teams. Is there a team or two in there that's like. I don't like our standing here. And if there's 14 teams trying to win, maybe we should not. I'm not going to call those teams names out, but I have a suspicion that, that, you know, that they could be in seller mode. So you have some, Some teams that are having to lose players because of salary. You have some teams that are ravenously trying to move up, and you have some teams that may try to sell because they see too many buyers. And what you got right there is a marketplace. So I don't know. We'll see finals first, though. Yes, let's focus on the finals first. So the big thing on the finals will be both teams want to turn the ball over. The turnover battle will be the. They should put the score on one end of the bottom of the. On the screen. They should put the turnovers on the bottom on the other.

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, I'll decide the series.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't. I don't think that's. To me, that's not the question. I. To me, the question is the. I think the Pacer. I think the Thunder are much better equipped to slow down the Pacers than the Pacers are to score on the Thunder. And I think that, to me, is the question in the series. Like, for example, looking at the series, Miles Turner had a pretty rough series. Carl Towns did a. Did a pretty good number on them. I don't know what you guys think. To me, if you look at how the Knicks handle.

[Brian Windhorst]

Carl had the ball. Not necessarily.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I, I'm just. I'm. I mean, Miles didn't do much in the series.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, but they, But Miles Robinson. Miles was setting screens.

[Tim Bontemps]

I, I understand. I'm just saying Miles Turner had an incredible first couple series. They didn't do much in this series. I would think the move for the Thunder is to have Isaiah Hartenstein come off the bench, start Casen Wallace, say to Chad Holmgren, you are gonna be right on Miles Turner, and we're just gonna take him out of the series. And then they've got a thousand athletes to throw at Halliburton. They've got various Guys that could throw at Siakam. And I'm not sure, like the Pacers are not an awesome half court team. They're an unbelievable offense because of how they get out and run and they get easy buckets out of transition and they create.

[Brian Windhorst]

They're an awesome offensive half court team when Halberton is scoring, which isn't every game.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I, I just, that's the thing I struggle with. The paces are a team that's driven by their offense and the Thunder have a team that seems perfectly suited to lock them up.

[Ben McMahon]

I, I don't think the Thunder are going to get to the finals and say, hey, this starting lineup we've been rolling with the entire playoffs isn't going to work in this series. We're scrapping it now. Could they start second halves like that? Could.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, always changing his lineup in the second.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean he's, I mean he's taking hard to stand out the second half all sorts of games. So I don't know.

[Ben McMahon]

Could Hartenstein's minutes be, you know, fairly low in this series? That, that I could.

[Tim Bontemps]

You could also, you could also very easily say, hey, going to start with the same lineup. And Miles Sterner, who couldn't do anything with Mitchell Robinson in the series, by the way, Isaiah Har Stein's probably just a more mobile version of Mitchell Robinson, so he's probably gonna have a hard time with him.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Knicks fans miss Iheart and the Knicks fans miss Robinson in the fourth quarter tonight too.

[Tim Bontemps]

And you could say to Chad Holgren, hey Chad, we're just gonna have you go guard Pascal Seakum and be even bigger and longer than him and be able to stick with him. So I just. The, the Thunder have an answer to all the different quirks that the Pacers have in a way that certainly the Cavs did not when they had nobody to guard the perimeter guys or the Pacers and the Knicks did not. Where they could just go at the Brunson and Towns hub whenever they wanted. Like they, it's just gonna, I just don't see where they're going to come up with those points. And yeah, I, you know, I just, I don't see how they're stopping Shay. I.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, yeah, I don't see how they're doing it four times. That's the thing. Like, you know, the Thunder are not an elite shooting team and they can have a night where they can't hit a shot from the outside. And you know, you, you could have that or you have one night where the Pacers are super red hot.

[Tim Bontemps]

But yeah, I mean Thunder and five I think feels like the pretty reasonable and I'm sure will be a heavily.

[Brian Windhorst]

At every game except for tonight. They were the favorite in tonight's game, so. All right, well, we won't be talking about it. We're going to shift a little bit. I don't love a podcast that comes out on Wednesday. That I know. But then after that, we're going to have podcasts that run the day of each game. Each game that will come out the day of each game that's with us. And then because Bon Thompson McMahon are gonna have to work. Both work post game and I'm gonna have a timer on them, see who finishes faster.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, that's. That's gonna be a no contest.

[Brian Windhorst]

We will have some post game podcasts after we do have a writing thing.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's right.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not comparing. I'm not putting myself in there.

[Ben McMahon]

No, I'm talking about Bon Temps is there to type my stories for me.

[Tim Bontemps]

I said it was. I said it was a no contest. Well, you're gonna take that in any way you want.

[Brian Windhorst]

You're gonna have to go see the, the Thunder trainer when you get in and get your. Get a buddy wrapped.

[Ben McMahon]

No, I'm good, man. Listen, we'll have some Bomb Tim's. Pack your kicks. We're gonna pick up.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, how many. How many pairs of. How many you brought?

[Tim Bontemps]

97. I got a lot of comments about the McMahon shoes.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, seriously, I want a photo.

[Ben McMahon]

Dorks.

[Brian Windhorst]

I want. When you get to Oklahoma City and unpack, I want you to line them all up and I want to see the photo. Honestly.

[Tim Bontemps]

How many? So let. Let's lay this out. How many? I don't want to know.

[Ben McMahon]

I don't think I can go more than I did last series and I can't go more suits. Like, I can fit eight.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, there's more TV days.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, I know I'm at the double. I'm at the, like, don't tell anybody, but I'm have to like repeat some suits probably. Well, unless.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh my God, I had four jackets for the conference final.

[Ben McMahon]

Unless you're right on the suits.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was.

[Ben McMahon]

If you're right on your prediction.

[Tim Bontemps]

Shoes or suits.

[Ben McMahon]

Hey, if you're right on your prediction, I'll be a. Okay on both of them.

[Tim Bontemps]

What are you. So you're not going to prepare and I can prepare for seven.

[Ben McMahon]

I will have to. If there's seven, there'll be some suits repeated and.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, well, you won't be Dallas. Go home to Dallas.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, you can't. I mean, God forbid, God forbid he'd go home to Dallas. The very long three hour drive that he can't make.

[Ben McMahon]

Did just. You do your job and I'll do.

[Tim Bontemps]

Mine, but how many shoes are we bringing? The people want to know.

[Ben McMahon]

Well, there'll be probably. There'll be eight suits, so eight kicks. Plus my everyday. Just like, you know, pair of Chucks or blazers or whatever. Just kind of wear on it, you know, just around plus the around shoes, plus some shoes, you know, some running shoes in case I listen to the IT department and get on the elliptical.

[Tim Bontemps]

We got around shoes, we got running shoes, we got hoop shoes. How many?

[Brian Windhorst]

Can I ask you? No real talk here. Real talk.

[Tim Bontemps]

12 pairs of shoes.

[Brian Windhorst]

What is your.

[Ben McMahon]

That's 11, you doofus.

[Brian Windhorst]

What is your method for. I'm not making fun of you. I don't want to know. What is your method for packing them? How do you put them in your suitcase? I would seriously take a photo. I would. I would like to see a photo.

[Tim Bontemps]

Do you have like an NBA team level shoe bag?

[Ben McMahon]

No, I just.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know what? You might want to think about that.

[Ben McMahon]

Listen, I pack shoes. I've now had to. I got to bring a duffel bag that's just like. I put my hoop shoes in there, put my running shoes in there. And then like a bunch of, if you must know, like underwear and T shirts and stuff. That's the duffel bag. And then there's one bag that's like, you know, paired. Two jeans and some golf shirts just in case I have to look like fairly classy if I go out to a decent dinner. And then just a bunch of shoes and sweats and hoodies and whatnot. And then there's this all suits with, you know, suits and dress shirts and whatnot. That's just one other full check bag. So you've seen it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Three bags.

[Ben McMahon]

Bags. Two. No, four. Because then there's computer bag. So there's two check bags, a duffel bag and a computer bag. Oh my God. Only two pairs of shoes are in the duffel bag. The good check bag.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, a couple more things. One, after each game, we're gonna have a short podcast with. I believe we have an NBA champion who's going to be our special guest. I believe. But I'm a little bit worried about saying it because every year.

[Ben McMahon]

Employed NBA champion.

[Brian Windhorst]

Is he employed? He's employed by somebody. Is he, Is he in, Is he in the NBA right now? No.

[Ben McMahon]

No. Is he an ESPN employee.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's a gray area.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay.

[Brian Windhorst]

But, you know, and you remember a couple years ago, Perk was all set up to do that.

[Ben McMahon]

That's what I was trying to get at.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's not Perk. We can't. By the way, Perk wants to come on. He. He. He. He looked at me the other day, and he. He gave me like. He's like, I'm. I'm pissed at you, man. I'm like, why? He goes, I haven't been on your podcast. I'm like, perk, you pulled it off about seven times. All right, so that's one thing. The other thing is this. Jackson will be on the road with us. Jackson, you're invited to this dude for the last four years.

[Ben McMahon]

This is really sad, because he heard about Tipsy Tiki, and then he had to get on board.

[Brian Windhorst]

The last four years, we've had an annual ESPN tradition of movie night during the finals. Oh, God, what a bunch of started. Yeah, you don't come, so fine, you can be quiet. The first year it happened was when we saw Top Gun. We saw it in the IMAX in San Francisco.

[Tim Bontemps]

That was the one I probably participated.

[Brian Windhorst]

In the last two years. What. What do you have to say, McMahon? You. You don't think. You don't think Top Gun in the IMAX was a great night?

[Ben McMahon]

I mean, go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. The last two years, I'm not gonna lie, the Pickens were rough. It was a rough time. However, this year, there's, like, four or five excellent movies that are available, so.

[Tim Bontemps]

Isn'T there only one option?

[Ben McMahon]

I tell you what. I'll make you a deal. If you come hang out at the Tipsy Tiki, then I will go to movie night.

[Tim Bontemps]

He ain't doing that. Isn't there only one option to go to a blockbuster movie right now?

[Brian Windhorst]

No, there's. There's several. There's several good movies out.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know he's not doing that.

[Ben McMahon]

I just.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't think my preference of the Phoenician scheme is going to win out. That would be my preference.

[Ben McMahon]

But is it a movie?

[Tim Bontemps]

It is a movie. I think Mission. I think the Mission Impossible movie is going to be the choice with the ultimate.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I. Maybe. Maybe not. There's several potentially potentially good movies. And so, like, if. If people want to make a case in the comments, Jackson can tell me. I don't look at the comments.

[Tim Bontemps]

Why. Why are you surfing for YouTube comments that you're never going to listen to anyway?

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm. I'm Aura Farming.

[Tim Bontemps]

You really are aura farming. What is happening right now?

[Brian Windhorst]

We're talking about our. Our finals plans.

[Ben McMahon]

Did you just learn the term aura farming?

[Tim Bontemps]

I did. He learned it when Tyres Albert said it the other day.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's when he learned it.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay. I learned it from some of these young whippersnapper writers who accuse players of aura farming. And I had to, like, say, what the hell is that?

[Brian Windhorst]

I had never heard it before. Before Halliburton said it. I'd never.

[Tim Bontemps]

Halliburton said something.

[Brian Windhorst]

So if it's a popular thing now.

[Tim Bontemps]

And now Brian's doing it that. I'm not gonna listen to Wendy.

[Ben McMahon]

Wendy has been doing it unwittingly for quite some time. Why would he do that?

[Tim Bontemps]

Why would he do that?

[Brian Windhorst]

Damn. Jackson's cutting that out.

[Tim Bontemps]

There's strays all over the place at 1:50 in the morning.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right.

[Tim Bontemps]

What a rollicking end of the pod. Just to think in a couple of days they're going to be doing this in person. It's going to be swell.

[Brian Windhorst]

Jackson's. Jackson gets to do the thing where he comes in and claps.

[Ben McMahon]

Jackson, make sure. Make sure that you get good, like up close of my. Of my kicks in this series. That's all I'm saying.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right.

[Ben McMahon]

These things.

[Tim Bontemps]

11 pairs of kicks. 11 or 12, we lose count.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, that's great. You. You'll. You're farming something else with that move. All right. Thank you to Jackson for staying up late. Thank you to Bon Temps for staying up late. I'm going to bed in my own bed. McMahon's going to bed.

[Ben McMahon]

I don't get a thank you.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you to McMahon.

[Ben McMahon]

Okay. Thank you.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you. Absolutely. Sorry.

[Tim Bontemps]

Playing hurt. Playing hurt.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you for watching Listening on Saturday night. We will talk to you on Wednesday, I think.

[Ben McMahon]

Adios, Migos.