NBA Stars Stunned In EuroBasket + Southeast Division Preview

Summary

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective

Episode: NBA Stars Stunned In EuroBasket + Southeast Division Preview

Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst with Tim Bontemps & Ban McMahon

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Overview

This episode explores two main threads in the NBA universe:

1. The shockwaves across EuroBasket 2025 – with major upsets, breakout stars, and big-name NBA talent making headlines.
2. An in-depth preview of the NBA’s Southeast Division, diving into each team’s moves, outlooks, and burning questions for the upcoming season.

Windhorst is joined by ESPN insiders Tim Bontemps and Ban McMahon, who bring their trademark dry humor and sharp analysis to fast-changing basketball narratives both in Europe and the NBA.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

EuroBasket 2025: Shocks, Standouts, and NBA Implications

1. Luka Doncic’s Historic Run

• Luka Magic in Riga: Doncic led Slovenia with 42 points to the quarterfinals—an effort widely hailed by NBA scouts as one of his most impressive international feats.
• Game Analysis:
  • Vintage Luka: “Step backs, bitching at the officials, talking trash… slow motion dominance.” – Windhorst (01:24)
  • Carried a roster with limited talent: “He’s leading them in every category… leading the entire tournament in scoring, almost 34 points a game… These are 40-minute games with zone defense, you can plant a guy in the middle of the paint.” – McMahon (02:43)
• Contextualizing Luka's Feats:
  • Could rival his prior accomplishments, like winning EuroLeague as a teen and leading Slovenia to the Olympics.
  • “If they advance further... this might rank atop the list of Luka’s hoop accomplishments.” – McMahon (03:37)

2. Unprecedented EuroBasket Upsets

• Major Powers Fall:
  • “To have a quarterfinal without Serbia or France... Poland, Georgia, Finland all being in the quarterfinals is pretty crazy.” – Bontemps (05:33)
• Lowry Markkanen and Finland:
  • Another “great run,” following his EuroBasket breakout before his career leap in Cleveland and Utah.
  • “He’s having another great summer—averaging 26 points. He had 29 points in victory over Serbia.” – Windhorst (07:53)
• Georgia’s Cinderella Story:
  • Praise for coach Alexander Dzikic, with colorful descriptions of his sideline style (“He looks like a biker… goatee and a vest”—Windhorst, 07:05).

3. Young Emerging Talent and NBA Prospects

• Mika Muurinen (“Slim Jesus”):

  • 17-year-old Finnish breakout, 6’10” forward, made big shots over Jokic.
  • “He hit two crushing threes over the top of Jokic.” – Windhorst (10:45)
  • Fascinating prospect: “He’s got some tats… that imply he’s had pain in his life, which is not his demeanor at all.” – Windhorst (13:37)
  • “He’s got lottery pick type of potential.” – McMahon (13:55)

• Comparative Impact:

  • While scouts focus on emerging youngsters like Muurinen, Bontemps emphasizes that Markkanen’s all-NBA level could reshape the Utah Jazz’s trajectory (12:06-14:25).

4. Other NBA Stars in EuroBasket

• Kristaps Porzingis (Latvia):
  • Put up numbers (34 points, 19 rebounds in R16), but “scouts were not blown away.” – Windhorst (17:55)
  • “Biggest thing is he’s just out on the court… trending toward being ready to go” for the Hawks. – Bontemps (18:13)
• Giannis Antetokounmpo (Greece):
  • “Absolutely took out the Israelis… shooting 73%... exactly what you'd expect, devastating force.” – Windhorst (19:04, 20:31)
• Alperen Sengun (Turkey):
  • Outplayed Jokic at times, stat lines like 24-16-6-2 in knockout play (22:04).
• Franz Wagner (Germany) & Dennis Schroder:
  • Wagner: Strong efficiency, classic limitations from three.
  • Schroder: World Cup MVP, “shooting over 50%,” key for German title push (22:58).

5. Hall of Fame Debates

• Dennis Schroder’s International Resume:
  • If Germany wins EuroBasket, “he’s going to have a pretty good case… going to cause people to go berserk.” – Bontemps (25:08)
  • “If you play 10 years in the NBA and have those two trophies… you’re probably getting in.” – Windhorst (27:54)

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NBA Southeast Division Preview

1. Orlando Magic: “All-In” After Years of Patience

• Desmond Bane Trade:
  • “Four first-round picks and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope for Desmond Bane… mortgaging their future to get Bane.” – Windhorst (31:02)
  • Management signaled a shift: “When I see a move like that, it leads me to think there’s a fire been lit by somebody.” – Windhorst (32:16)
• Heavy Core Investment:
  • Core locked in: Wagner, Banchero, Bane, Suggs all on massive long-term deals (33:10).
  • “That's over $150 million for those four players in an apron era.” – Windhorst (32:51)
• Pressure on Star Development:
  • “Is Paolo Banchero that good? Is Franz Wagner that good? This is as much a bet on those two as on the Magic.” – Bontemps (33:20)
  • Range of outcomes: Finals contender if Banchero/Wagner pop; merely solid playoff team if not.
• Offense Still a Question:
  • Addition of Bane aims to create spacing and shot creation, similar to how Jrue Holiday elevated the Bucks (35:38).

2. Atlanta Hawks: Building Around, But Unsure About Trae Young

• Smart Cap Play, Strategic Additions:
  • Acquired Porzingis, Nikhil Alexander-Walker, and others in “salary cap dump” deals from contenders (38:10).
  • Core of young, athletic defenders to “protect Trae Young on defense.” – McMahon (44:36)
• Trae Young Extension Dilemma:
  • “Long-term outlook... is murky. This is a guy, he has been the face of the Hawks for seven years… but there’s question marks about whether this is going to be a long-term marriage.” – McMahon (45:44)
  • New CBA reality: “If Trey wants a max...I can't give Trey Young a max in his late 20s at his size.” – Bontemps (47:41)
  • Market for point guards is saturated, lowering leverage for Trae.
• Zaccharie Risacher Assessment:
  • “Middling” EuroBasket but still seen as on the Nick Batum path—versatile, valuable, not a perennial All-Star. (43:00)

3. Miami Heat: In Transition, Still Hunting

• Roster in Flux:
  • “Are they satisfied with sticking around as a play-in team? Or which direction are they going?” – Windhorst (53:51)
  • Smart (if uninspiring) move: Traded for Norman Powell.
  • Unsettled future with Andrew Wiggins—could be an extension or trade candidate.
  • Khalil Ware is a potential breakout candidate, but Jaime Jaquez took a step back after his rookie leap.
• Best Positioned for a Star Splash:
  • “They could be a hunter in case of a star becoming available… with a collection of young players, contracts, picks.” – Windhorst (54:37)
  • Never rushed into win-now trades: “They have the ability to wait on some of these things… fans get mad… but nobody should think they should’ve traded for Kevin Durant.” – Bontemps (57:11)
• But the Current Core Doesn’t Excite:
  • “I’m not excited about this team now. They could make two moves and change everything – they have a long history of shrewd moves. But right now… not excited.” – Windhorst (58:03)

4. Charlotte Hornets: In Search of Health…and Direction

• Pick Swaps and Asset Accumulation:
  • “They've made some smart trades... But they haven’t had lottery luck or breakout talent.” – Bontemps (63:42)
  • Drafted Con Knipple, swung deals for picks, but still waiting for foundational growth.
• LaMelo Ball’s Future in Doubt:
  • “When you’re talking about possible trade pieces, LaMelo is one of them.” – McMahon (61:51)
  • “Before discussing trading LaMelo, you need to see if he can play 70 games. If not, it’s a non-starter.” – Bontemps (62:03)

5. Washington Wizards: Patient, Smart Process…No Surefire Talent Yet

• Exit From The Purgatory:
  • “The first thing they did… was plant the tree of their rebuild. They traded Bradley Beal.” – McMahon (72:22)
• Loaded with Prospects and Picks:
  • “The process has been good… Now they've got 8 or 9 first-round picks on rookie contracts.” – Bontemps (70:48)
  • “But the process is only as good as the talent you get in the door.” – Bontemps (71:10)
• Rebuild Risks:
  • Concern over development – both Alex Sarr and Bilal Coulibaly are “just very bad offensive players right now… difficult to play two guys who are so raw.” – McMahon (68:03)
  • McCollum and Middleton as stabilizing “grown-ups,” both on expiring contracts.
  • “Rebuilds are really hard when you don’t have big-time lottery luck.” – McMahon (70:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Luka Doncic’s EuroBasket run:

  • “He did it with 42 points in the round of 16 in Riga, Latvia. It was an absolute vintage Luka game – step backs… slow motion dominance.” – Windhorst (01:24)

• On the Southeast Division shakeups:

  • “They (Orlando) jump all the way and up to their eyeballs mortgaging their future control to get Bain.” – Windhorst (31:02)

• On Tyus Jones’ signing with Magic:

  • “Well, they did sort of under the radar sign Tyus Jones to a one year deal to help with that (playmaking).” – Windhorst (31:49)

• On Trae Young's future (and the new CBA):

  • “You can’t get out over your skis on a big contract… five years ago, Trae Young would have gotten a max and he’d already be signed, but we’re not in the NBA five years ago.” – Bontemps (46:20)

• On Hall of Fame for international stars:

  • “When you look at Dennis Schroder’s international career, if they win this tournament he’s going to make the Hall of Fame, which I’m sure will cause people to go crazy…” – Bontemps (25:08)

• On Miami’s current state:

  • “The Heat are in an in-between phase – the post Jimmy Destruction, what's our next chapter phase?” – McMahon (57:24)
  • “Not excited about this team now…They could make two moves and change everything.” – Windhorst (58:03)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Luka Doncic's EuroBasket Heroics: 01:24–04:43
• EuroBasket Upsets & Standings: 05:21–07:05
• Lowry Markkanen & Finland’s Run: 07:53–09:35
• Spotlight on Mika Muurinen (“Slim Jesus”): 09:35–13:55
• Porzingis, Giannis, Sengun, and Franchise Updates: 18:13–24:21
• Dennis Schroder’s Hall of Fame Debate: 25:08–27:54
• Orlando Magic Deep Dive: 29:00–36:38
• Atlanta Hawks Outlook, Trae Young Dilemma: 38:10–47:41
• Miami Heat State of the Franchise / Star Hunting: 53:13–58:03
• Charlotte Hornets - Youth Movement, LaMelo Ball: 60:13–66:29
• Washington Wizards Rebuild & Process: 66:48–73:19

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Tone & Style

The episode is conversational, data-driven, and reflective of classic “Hoop Collective” banter—mixing deep dives, dry wit, and a clear-eyed approach to both the hype and the grind of NBA and FIBA basketball. Opinions are bold yet well-supported; the trio’s chemistry is evident throughout as they bounce between international surprises and NBA war rooms.

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Summary

This episode captures a wild EuroBasket (with huge upsets and breakout stars) and sets the table for one of the NBA’s most intrigue-laden divisions. With key All-NBA talents balling out in Europe, a changing of the guard in the Southeast, and teams navigating the new collective bargaining landscape, the podcast provides a rich, timely snapshot of the game’s global and domestic evolution.

Transcript

[Brian Windhorst]

It's the Smucker's Uncrustables podcast with your host, Uncrustables. Okay, Today's guest is rough around the edges. Please welcome crust. Thanks for having me.

[Tim Bontemps]

Today's topic, he's round with soft, pillowy bread. Hey. Filled with delicious PB and J. Are you talking about yourself? And you can take them anywhere.

[Brian Windhorst]

Why'd you invite. And we are out of time.

[Tim Bontemps]

Are you really cutting me off? Uncrustables are the best part of the sandwich.

[Ban McMahon]

Sorry, Crust.

[Brian Windhorst]

Foreign. Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Monday afternoon, maybe some would call it evening. Joining us from New York City is Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello, everybody.

[Brian Windhorst]

And just back from joining Bon Temps at Springfield, Massachusetts for the hall of Fame induction ceremonies is Ban McMahon.

[Ban McMahon]

Howdy, partners. We actually did the Uncasville. I think that's how you pronounce that. The Mohegan sun portion.

[Brian Windhorst]

Mohegan sun, yes.

[Ban McMahon]

Didn't make. I still haven't been to the actual hall of Fame. One day I'll. I'll make it there.

[Tim Bontemps]

Also, shout out to our guy, Kevin Pelton, who had his wedding celebration this weekend in Seattle.

[Ban McMahon]

Oh, shout out to the machine.

[Brian Windhorst]

Congrats to Kevin Pelton on the nuptials. He will. He will be prolific, even in marriage, is my prediction. You can't slow him down.

[Tim Bontemps]

He is the machine for a reason.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right. There's no slowing them down. Before we get into our division preview for today, which will be the Southeast Division, definitely the most exciting division we could think of. I do. We. It's today. Monday is an off day at Eurobasket. They're down to the Final Eight, and NBA stars are starring over there, especially Luka McMahon. Luka. I gotta say, in talking to the scouts who are there, they describe Luka getting this batch of Slovenians to the elite eight as a great accomplishment. He did it with 42 points in the round of 16. The other day in Riga, Latvia. Completely was an absolute vintage Luka game step backs, you know, bitching at the officials, talking trash to the other opponent, Slow motion dominance, you know, just using his size to kick, kick tail. And I think they were playing the Italians. The Italians finally started double teaming him, like in the third quarter. Why they didn't start double team in the first quarter, I don't know. But skinny Luka looked really good. If you. If you care about Luka and the Lakers and you don't care about Eurobasket, well, be encouraged by what you're seeing. Out of luka so far. McMahon. Yeah.

[Ban McMahon]

After he scored 30 points in the 20 minute first half, the Italians decided might want to throw another body this guy. Especially considering there's only one Euroleague player on the roster. There's no naturalized citizen, which means they don't have a lob threat. I mean, completely carrying this team. He's leading them in every category. He's leading the entire tournament in scoring almost 34 points a game. And again, these are 40 minute games where zone defense, there's no rules against it. You can plant a guy right in the middle of the paint. I tell you, if now he's got a huge challenge coming up next. They've got the Germans. The Germans are the one power, like established power going in in the tournament that's still standing after a batch of big time upsets. I would say if Slovenia advances any further, this might rank atop the list of Luka's hoop accomplishments.

[Brian Windhorst]

Number one being getting the Mavs to the finals two years ago or leading Slovenia to the Eurobasket championship.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think it's winning the Euro League final four and winning Euroleague final four. Real Madrid was a teenager. I think that's the number one so far.

[Ban McMahon]

I would probably say that getting the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Slovenia that or EuroBasket, the, the Olympic.

[Ban McMahon]

Just because Slovenia had never been to the Olympics before. The way that he.

[Brian Windhorst]

And they finished fourth.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah. With a 30 something point triple double in Lithuania to clinch their Olympic spot. You know, comes out in the Olympics, 48 points in the opener. I mean, look, the guys literally 26 years old, can retire right now. Would be a Hall of Famer. That, that's the resume that he has. I'm just saying if they're able to, to advance further in this tournament and pull off this upset against Germany, this ranks right up there with his most impressive feats.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, I mean, you mentioned it in passing, but this, this was a, this was a crazy weekend. I mean for we, we talked at the beginning of the tournament. I shouted out my guy, Toko Shingelia in Georgia for beating Spain. The fact that they turned around him and Gogo Pataze and Sandro Amouxvili, who's now on the Spurs. For those guys to beat France, even without Victor and Rudy is wild. And then Larry Markkanen and the Finns go and upset Jokic in a truly crazy result like I, you know, to have a, to have a quarterfinal, that's the biggest shocker of the tournament.

[Ban McMahon]

That's the biggest shock of the tournament.

[Tim Bontemps]

To have a quarterfinal without Serbia or, or France or. I Mean, Croatia has obviously fallen up. Like Croatia's long been a power. They're. They weren't even in the tournament.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah, Spain's gone.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's a no. Spain like Poland, Poland, Georgia, Finland all being in the quarterfinals. A Euro basket is pretty crazy.

[Brian Windhorst]

By the way, to take this. Go ahead.

[Tim Bontemps]

I was going to say Finland.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let's just take this one at a time because Bontemps, we love him, but he tends to take off on the hot. On the hot spots.

[Tim Bontemps]

We weren't going to talk about all of it. I was just. It's just crazy. It was a crazy weekend.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, I know. And I appreciate your insight. So Luca is absolutely. Looks absolutely great. Germany is probably the remaining favorite. Although I have to say, not that we really want to super analyze the tournament. That is not what I certainly do. I'm not going to be able to break all that down. But I will say that when it comes to this, let's remember these are 40 minute single elimination games. So it's kind of like the NCAA tournament. So while you can pick a favorite, you often will see upsets. That said, I think Germany is probably the remaining favorite.

[Tim Bontemps]

Easy, easy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Remaining World cup champions. So, couple of things. First off, the Georgia national team, who's having a great run here, they've got a Serbian coach and I'm gonna botch his name. He used to actually work for the Timberwolves. Man, I'm almost afraid to say it because I'm gonna be embarrassed. Alexander Jerkich, I believe is how you say his last name. And if I screw that up, I apologize. Jackson, if you can get this guy's photo and put him in, in the.

[Tim Bontemps]

YouTube, he doesn't look, he doesn't look like a basketball coach, let's put it that way.

[Brian Windhorst]

He could be a hero in America. So, and I, you know, and he's, he's coached in the Euro League. He's not like, he's not like, he's an up and comer. He's been around for a long time, but he's sort of getting his just desserts for leading this run. He looks like a biker. He's got like a, he's got like a, A long like, goatee. He wears an untucked shirt and a vest on the sideline. I always remember David Blatt when we were just, you know, when he was sort of coming on the international scene. He was coaching the Olympics with a tucked in polo shirt. He would tuck his polo shirt into jeans and he would put his. Nobody knew who he was. So he would put his credential, he would like string it through his jeans. So he'd be over there coaching in it with. In jeans and a tucked in polo shirt. And he was leading the Russians to a bronze medal. Jerk it. God, I feel like I'm going to get so mocked for how he says name, but he's amazing. He's. He's wearing this vest and he's leading upsets. Just a terrific run. It's one of the great things about Eurobasket. It's unfortunate that it happens in football season, at the start of the football season. So it is just no chance of getting on the American in the American consciousness. All right, Bon Temps, you mentioned Finland. You know what's going to happen here. Lowry, Markkanen, he did this a couple of years ago. It was a great run at Eurobasket. That was right before his time with the Cavs having that big rebound season. He's having another great summer. He's averaging 26 points, I believe, so far for the finish. I got to get the Finnish team. Finland's nickname, as long as I'm botching European pronunciations. It means wolfpack in Finnish and I will botch it. But it's an awesome. It's an awesome nickname. He had 29 points in the, in the, in the victory over Serbia. And you know, like in the case of France who lost this week to Georgia, France, as we talked about, didn't have all their team. Victor Wembanyama not there. Nicholas Batum and Rudy Gobert seem like they've retired or definitely retired from this summer at least. Susie Zhang, I believe is how you. I don't believe I'm trying. Susa Jang or Susa Jangi is the nickname of the Finnish basketball team. I am so embarrassed myself as an ugly American. All the Finns speak perfect English, which means wolf pack. Anyway, the French didn't have the same team that won the silver last year in Paris. The, the Serbians who won the bronze did have the same team. And while Bogdan Bogdanovic suffered, I was.

[Tim Bontemps]

Going to say minus him being hurt.

[Brian Windhorst]

Bleed over into the season for the Clippers. We'll know more about that soon. They did the same team, including Nikola Jokic. And so the Fins came in and won marketing at 29 in that game, he is having a fabulous summer. And I want to talk for a minute, Bontemps, about sort of the breakout young player in this tournament so far. He is not the leading scorer for Finland. That is market and he's powering them. Mika Murinen who, if you follow recruiting, which, you know, if you listen to this podcast in early September, you probably do, but. Mika Muranin is a 610 forward who is, I believe, 17 years old. He's still in high school. He's going to be a senior in high school in the Phoenix area. Born and raised in Finland. His mom played basketball at North Carolina and his dad was a, I think a pro player in Finland or played for the Finnish national team. He has been the breakout young star of this tournament. He's not putting up enormous numbers, but he's, you know, tall kid. His nickname is Bontems. Do you know his nickname?

[Tim Bontemps]

I do, I do. I'll let you say it for the people.

[Brian Windhorst]

It is Slim Jesus.

[Tim Bontemps]

That is correct.

[Brian Windhorst]

Which I'm not sure is appropriate. Like, I, you know, I'm not. He doesn't resemble Jesus, but he is slim because he's pretty young and he hit two crushing three pointers over the top of Jokic on switches that helped the Finns get over the hump the other day. He is in talking to scouts. Eccentric, likes to talk and fancies his game after Aunt Edwards, which is not what you'd expect from a 610 guy whose nickname is Slim Jesus. And, but I've been advised by scouts like, you know, he's, you know, he's going to go play in college next year. He's still two years away from the draft, I think unless there's reclassifications, I can't keep track of this. He's going to be a top recruit. There's a bunch of teams that are trying to get him. But anyway, Mika Mirinin is a guy to be paid attention to for sure coming out of this Bontemps, and I don't know if you got to see them play at all, but definitely someone to, to keep in the back of your mind, you know, Luka was 17 when he arrived and no one's comparing him to Luka, but, you know, Luka was 17 years old when he really started Eurobasket and it started the momentum of Luka to the NBA. You're going to start hearing momentum for this guy, at least as a European prospect.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, Mirren is a really interesting prospect. We'll see what happens with him over the next year or two. You know, like you said, he's going to be heavily recruited. We'll see what happens next year. He should be. Certainly seems like he's poised to potentially be a lottery pick in 2027, at least as of now. But I mean, to me, the story of this and we talked about the start of the tournament. The story of this to me is Larry Markkanen looking like the guy he was going into that first year with Will Hardy in Utah. And that could be one of the real interesting storylines. As we discussed going into the tournament, going into the season, if Larry Markkanen looks like an all star caliber player again and is playing at that kind of level, that puts a lot of things on the table in Utah up to and including potentially getting a haul for him in a trade and continuing to push toward this, you know, very eu centric rebuild their clearly directed towards at the moment or just having him be a centerpiece of what they're doing going forward alongside Ace Bailey and Walker Kessler and Walter Clayton Jr. And what could be another high pick in next year's draft. So, you know, he's. This is a super interesting young prospect, but to me this is all about marketing. Going out there and looking like a stud again after essentially a lost season for.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah, but listen, the finisher is a nice nickname. It ain't Slim Jesus.

[Brian Windhorst]

Come on.

[Ban McMahon]

Slim Jesus. This kid is all hair length, leaping ability into energy and he's hats.

[Brian Windhorst]

I never talk about tats, but this kid has.

[Ban McMahon]

He's got some tats.

[Brian Windhorst]

This, this kid has tattoos on his arm that imply that he has had pain in his life, which is not his demeanor at all.

[Ban McMahon]

Well, hey, the rim has pain when he's on the floor. I know that. I mean, this kid, he's like 6:10, 185, but I think that's right.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not sure he's 185, but.

[Ban McMahon]

Well, listen, man, he goes, he throws it down hard and look, you know, he, he's got a chance. Like he has lottery pick type of potential. Obviously there's a long way to go, but yeah, from an NBA perspective, I don't know. That's interesting. What is the bigger story? This kid's emergency is a potential lottery.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, look, the scouts go. The scouts who I'm relying on to feed me information, they're not going over there to evaluate Luka Doncic's step back, you know. You know, so. You know, Luca, I definitely think the bigger.

[Tim Bontemps]

I definitely think the bigger NBA story is right now is marketing. Like this is. This kid's an interesting prospect, but like, if iron marketing is an all star caliber player again next season, that could have a lot of ramifications across the board.

[Brian Windhorst]

I will say Mark is only shooting 29% on threes, so.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah, but I mean, that's he's having to carry the offense in the way in a way that he wouldn't if he was traded. And like, I don't think the question with Markin is ever going to be can you shoot the three ball? But I think Markin has to continue playing like this to position the Jazz to really be able to get big time value for him. Because listen, that contract, there was no hometown discount. That is a big, big fat contract. And it's, you know, it's, it's kind of an interesting dilemma. Like, yeah, he's potentially putting himself in, putting the Jazz in position to get good value for him in the trade market. You might also put him in position to win more than the, you know, 16, 18 games that most people haven't penciled in.

[Tim Bontemps]

For more Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Your chicken favorites at participate in McDonald's for a limited time. Okay, some other things NBA wise, the Latvians got eliminated in this round. Chris Eps Porzingis had a 34.19 rebound game in the round of 16 and they got eliminated. So those stats looked good. He he averaged 20 points a game and six rebounds in this series or in this tournament. However, the scouts were not blown away by the way he looked. They felt he looked not not the sort of impact player that they're used to seeing. And he admitted that while he feels a lot better than he did in the spring, that he's still got a way to go that he's not back to the full health that he was at now. How do you quantify that? I don't. I don't know. But it's a positive. You know, if you're a Hawks fan, you know, it's a positive that he's feeling better and that he's not being. I mean, you know, they were pulling the guy out of games because he couldn't get up the court. So the fact that he. Let me see how many minutes he averaged. He averaged 27 minutes a game, which is, you know, pretty high. So they, you know, they obviously needed him out there. That's a good sign. But I wouldn't say that the scouts came home raving about the way Porzingis looked. Whatever that's worth to you. Not my eyes. I'm trusting the pros on that. Also.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think the bigger thing is that he's just out on the court.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Being productive. I mean, yeah, he isn't. He may not have been, you know, 110, but given where he was in the spring, the fact he's putting up numbers and playing decently in this tournament, I think is at least trending toward him being ready to go at the start of the regular season. Which from, again, if we're looking at it from a pure NBA perspective, I think that. I think that matters more than him being at peak efficiency in Euro basket. He certainly looked better than he did in the spring. Well, that's barely get through games sometimes for the Celtics.

[Ban McMahon]

Well, there were no setbacks and there were no new injuries. I will say Latvia getting bounced in the round of 16 when you know they've got the elimination games on their turf is awfully disappointing.

[Brian Windhorst]

For sure. He was. Porzingis was 10 of 38 on threes. That's third. 27, 28%. I'm just passing it along. I'm not trying to judge it. I'm just telling what the stats were. He did average nine rebounds. Giannis has been dominant. Absolutely took out the Israelis yesterday. Denny Advia was playing for Israel. He did not even put Advia on Giannis because I think they thought he'd foul out because he was just a freight train going to the basket. He is shooting. Giannis is shooting 73% in this. He's only taken three threes. He's made one of them. He is shooting 73% in this tournament. And you know, he is. He's only played in four games. They've sat him out of a couple because they're trying to hold. They were trying to hold him for when it mattered against Spain in the group phase. He had a huge game where I think he had, he had 14 rebounds, nine assists and I think 26 points or something like that. He is been exactly what you'd expect. He looks great and you know, not that that's a surprise, but don't worry about him. He. But he had the injury at the end of the season that looks like it's all healed.

[Ban McMahon]

37 and 10 against Israel, man, I don't know, I don't know how many of them were dunks, but a lot of them, including two where he took off beyond the dotted line. You know, we talk about the difficulty of, of scoring in half court in the FIBA game. There's. There ain't no stopping him in transition, not in the NBA and definitely not, you know, with those, you know, Euro league level athletes. And he's been posting up a lot. Just, I mean he's been an absolutely devastating force.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. And your Turkey update. Yeah.

[Ban McMahon]

Hey, beat Serbia. Serbia, the only ones now, but still pretty impressive performance by old Alpi Shingoon and the boys in that one.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was talking to a guy that I know who's a Serbian NBA executive. I was saying because when the Turkish beat the Serbians it was in pool play and, and the Serbians had already advanced and I was like, I don't trust, you know, Serbia is known to pull some punches, you know, play a little. To play a little game where they don't show their full situation, you know, when, you know, until it really matters. And he was like, no, he's like Jokic is not quite on his game. He's not quite in top shape. You know, he warned me. He goes, this loss puts us in the same bracket as Germany. I don't like it.

[Ban McMahon]

So he, Bogdanovic got hurt and that was huge.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. So Serbia being out before the semifinals, much less the round of eight is real upset. But Sengun was terrific in that game we mentioned. I think he output played Jokic in the, in the game against Sweden which was around of 16. He had another really good game. I think he had, let's see, 24 points, 16 rebounds, six assists, two blocks. So tremendous performance for him. He's played really well. Shane Larkin as well, so. But Chengun looks good. And, and for any Heat fans out there, Paul Larson, who they drafted last year in the second round I believe, right. Bon times he was second round pick last year. Was he a first round pick?

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes, second round, second round pick.

[Brian Windhorst]

They are eliminated. The Swedes are eliminated. But he had a, he had a good tournament. He didn't shoot the ball from range too well, but he averaged 19 points, shot 46% overall. And unless you guys have anything else to say about Eurobasket, I'm prepared to pivot to the southeast with the, with that heat. Oh, I will mention Franz Wagner. He's having a good tournament. He's averaging 20 points, shooting 50. I think 53% from the field. 51% from the field. No, 53% from the field, but in classic Franz Wagner fashion, only 33% from three. And Dennis Schroeder, who's the reigning World Cup MVP, a new member of the Sacramento Kings, is averaging 20 points a game, playing very well, shooting over 50%. But any more takes on Eurobasket, gents.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think it's, I just can't believe the number of upsets that they, that we've seen. And it's going to be, it's going to be awfully interesting seeing like one of Finland or Georgia is going to be in the medal round of Eurobasket, which is pretty crazy. And you know, like, you could have Giannis and you could have Giannis and Luka playing in the final, which I didn't anticipate thinking was a possibility going into the tournament. And I still don't think it's likely, but it's not likely. But they're the two best players and the, the biggest competition in front of them is off the board.

[Brian Windhorst]

I will just say that, you know, to me, I mean, I know who Giannis and Luka are. To me, this is about which young players can ascend who take the most from this experience. I know, you know, we know who Dennis Schroeder is. You know, he may, for all I know, he'll lead the Germans to this win and he'll be named mvp. To me, I, you know, marketing to a certain extent, but Sengun and Franz Wagner, you know, these are guys who are all star level players.

[Tim Bontemps]

And marketing, I mean, it's a huge chance for marketing, too.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Tim Bontemps]

Like, I mean, look like for Finland like this, it's like Finland's ever had any history like this.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, yeah, he's, it's like he's played a lot of NBA games. Yeah.

[Ban McMahon]

No, listen, Markkanen has literally never played in an NBA playoff game. These are the biggest games of marketing career.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would, I would say for sure. And the other thing too, this is probably going to drive people insane. Dennis Schroeder is going to make the hall of Fame and I think he's definitely going to make the hall of Fame if they win this tournament, which is going to cause people to go berserk. But when you. It's the. It's a World Basketball hall of Fame of all levels. When you look at Dennis Schroeder's international career, I think if they win this tournament, he's going to make the hall of Fame eventually as an international entry, which I'm sure caused people to go crazy, but he's got a pretty damn good international resume. If they win this, win this.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Like Tony Kukoc, for example, made the hall of Fame, and you know, it wasn't.

[Ban McMahon]

I hear you. Ku coach also was a. Was a key piece of NBA championship teams.

[Brian Windhorst]

Kukoc, here are the players who have, in the modern era who have won World Cup MVP. All right, we're going to go back to 1982. All right? And you're going to. Most of these names that you're going to hear are hall of Famers. Okay. So Doc Rivers, Drazan Petrovich, Tony Kukoc, Shaquille o', Neill, Dejan Beatrick Beatriga. Probably botched that one. You go. You go. Slavian. You don't know.

[Tim Bontemps]

I want to start accurate, whatever it is.

[Brian Windhorst]

You're right. I've. I got a lot of egg on my face with the pronunciations. Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol. I got Nowitzki right. Pau Gasol, Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, Ricky Rubio, Dennis Schroeder. I don't know about Rubio, but, you know, he's another guy. Where's your take on Rubio? In the.

[Ban McMahon]

I would say it's the same. Same case, Solid NBA career, spectacular international career.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I don't think Ricky has nearly the resume internationally that. That Dennis does. I mean, Ricky was on better teams, but I mean, Dennis Schroeder was World cup mvp, won the World Cup. And if they win Eurobasket, like World cup champion, Eurobasket champion and potential World Cup MVP and EuroBasket MVP, my guess is he will likely end up being. If they win.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not. You know, look, the, the way that hall of Famers get elected is opaque. And especially for international folks, it's like a committee. So I don't know. My, my gut feel on this is Shooter is an MVP or in the hall of Fame right now. I would say he's close, but he's not there. And I would agree with you. If he wins Euro basket.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. If he wins that. Wins. Wins mvp. Like that's. There are very few guys who've Won Euro Basket MVP and World Cup MVP and won both tournaments.

[Brian Windhorst]

If you play 10 years in the NBA and you have those two trophies on your mantle, you're probably getting in. As for Rubio, he. Even though the Spanish won some medals with him, he was only a driving force for them in the one World cup where he won. But, you know, he did win mvp, so.

[Ban McMahon]

And he was either he's got a shot.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's got a shot for sure.

[Ban McMahon]

First or second youngest Euroleague player in the history of that league.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean he's, he's definitely got a shot, but I think like Dennis, it's just the point was more that like, people certainly understandably do not think of Dennis Shooter as a Hall of Fame player. And he's going to have a pretty good case as far as the international part of it goes if they win this tournament.

[Brian Windhorst]

How many people. Do more people know about schroeder turning down $80 million and then posting that Instagram photo with him in front of like two Bentleys and like. Or do they know that he won World cup mvp?

[Tim Bontemps]

More people know about the contract for sure with the Lakers contract.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, Southeast Division, let's give it its proper attention. The Orlando Magic, our favorite to win the Southeast Division. Our forecast from our illustrious panel at ESPN projected the Magic to win 50 games this season. Let me go back and look and see the last time the Orlando Magic won 50 games. I'm going to do that right now.

[Ban McMahon]

It's got to be in the Dwight days.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, it's definitely in the Dwight days. I would say it was 2000 and it's probably 2010.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, they made the finals in 2010. Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

So 2009.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, that's right.

[Tim Bontemps]

They lost the conference finals to The Celtics in 2010.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. They last 2011.

[Ban McMahon]

You were close.

[Tim Bontemps]

Bond temps. Yeah, I mean, I mean it was, it was one of those Dwight years for sure. It was either. Was 10. It was either 9, 10 or 11.

[Ban McMahon]

And since then they have been over.500 twice.

[Tim Bontemps]

Last year won a playoff series. Right.

[Ban McMahon]

Last year they finished exactly 500. Yes. They have not won a playoff series since that 2010 season. 152 games next year were bounced in the first round. You know, last year was such a wonky year for them with their two best players both going out with oblique injuries, which. How often do you even hear about oblique injuries in basketball? Plus Suggs missed so much time and Suggs is a huge piece for them, a huge part of what they do. But you know, they, they Made a all in. Go for it now. Deal or bring in Desmond Bain. I think, I think they certainly have 50 win potential. How dangerous they are come playoff time I'm not certain. And Bain fixes a lot of their offensive issues but I still think they're a little light in the playmaking. Although the natural development from Franz and Bankero could address that, that issue.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, they did sort of under, under the radar sign Tyus Jones to a one year deal to help with that. Although if I, if I'm them I'm hoping some of their, you know, some of their playmaking comes from guys like Jalen Suggs and, and Anthony Black. You're, you're waiting for Anthony Black to take a big step forward. This is his third season and you're hoping that, that you know there's a lot of belief in his potential. But just to go over their offseason real quick, four first round picks and Kentavius Caldwell Pope for Desmond Bain after basically sitting on the sidelines for the trade in the trade market for half of a decade, they jump all the way and up to their eyeballs mortgaging their future control to get Bain. That you know what I see with that move when I see a move like that that leads me to think there's a fire been lit by somebody, you know because it not the way the organization has typically operated. So and then of course they signed Paolo Banchero to a 5 year supermax for you 240 million I think if he hits the, if he hits all NBA. So they, you know they are looking, you know they have some non guarantees including Jonathan Isaac. But next year when all their money kicks in. Jalen Suggs money kicks in now but starting next year Franz Wagner 42 million. Dez Bane 40 million. Jalen Suggs his number actually goes down but still 32 million. Paolo Banchero 41 million. That is you know over $150 million for those four players in an apron era. They are heavily invested and all of them signed for a long time. You know Wagner his 5 year max kicks in now. Bain is signed for 4 more years. Suggs 5 year contract kicks in now. Banker was under contract for six more years. They extended Wendell Carter last year. He's going to get an $8 million raise in next year. Bontemps, they are heavily invested in this roster and sure they could always make a trade but they don't like to trade. They seem to believe that this core is taking them back to the top.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean they, they really went all in on Desmond Bain. And, you know, in the wake of the trade, you know, Jeff Weltman talked about the fact they want to be competing for Easter conference championships and being in the finals and being that kind of team. And, you know, that's the kind of move you go all in to make if you think you're that kind of team. I mean, it's reminiscent of when the Bucks went and got you Holiday, right? Like they, they went all in to get the guy they thought was going to be the thing that put them over the top. And now the other part of that is the buck said Giannis Antenna Kupo, right? Is Paolo Banchero that good? Is Franz Wagner that good? Like, this is a, this is as much a bet on Paolo Banchero and Franz Wagner as it is on the Magic as a whole, right? And those guys were both injured and frankly, I think disappointing last year. Like when, when Jalen Suggs didn't play, the Magic weren't very good. And that was with Powell. That was whether Paolo. Ben Caro was healthy or not. So like we've talked about before, yes, he got the max deal this summer. He's a terrific young player. He's got a very bright future. But I think this is a huge year for him. And there's a world where he comes out and is a guy that's a first or second team, all NBA kind of player and makes a leap into the top 10 for player rankings a year from now. And Orlando looks like a team that can make the Finals. And there's a world where he's still a very inefficient scorer. And despite adding Bain, they still have some offensive issues and they're more like the fourth best team in the east and looking like a team that maybe wins a series as opposed to one that I certainly think has the potential, if it goes right, of winning three series and getting to the final. So, you know, those two guys have, I think, a ton of pressure on them. And we, we've talked about the desbane trade a lot. I love the fit. I love Jalen Suggs. I think those guys together are an awesome fit. And you know, they've got a deep roster. Jamal Mosley's done a great job building a defensive identity there. The only missing piece left at this point is for those two guys to really become efficient, you know, consistent offensive producers and to lift this team up into the top of the top part of the league on offense. And if that happens, Orlando is going to be a bear to deal with all season.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah, we talked a lot about Palo's relative inefficiency. Again, primary options in their early 20s. You're not going to find a whole lot of those guys who are going to be really efficient. And I think that you have to consider the circumstances when we talk about their lack of playmaking, their lack of shooting, which obviously creates spacing issues, you know, then it's going to be difficult for, for Apollo to to operate in that way. Different position, but I think in somewhat similar to Cade Cunningham in Detroit in in the sense of with the improvement in spacing, suddenly Cade Cunningham looked like a much better player. And so we'll see. You know, the, the idea of bringing in Bane is not just bringing in his production, but bringing in his gravity and, and hoping it gives room to breathe for Apollo and for Franz.

[Tim Bontemps]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Ban McMahon]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Ban McMahon]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Ban McMahon]

If we made $15 bills, but it.

[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Brian Windhorst]

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[Tim Bontemps]

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[Brian Windhorst]

One of the biggest risers in our predictions, a team that is considered amongst the contenders, the Atlanta Hawks, who ESPN very aggressively projects to 47 and 35 with a fourth best record in the Eastern Conference. The Hawks with a number of significant moves over the summer, primarily trading basically in a salary cap dump. They had cap space and they took advantage of their cap space to acquire players from contending teams that sort of didn't fit on their roster. The Celtics had to cut payroll, especially in the wake of the Jayson Tatum injury. They had to offload Chris Apps Porzingis. It cost him a pick. But Porzingis ends up in Atlanta. The Timberwolves couldn't afford to keep Nas Reed, Julius Randle and Nikhil Alexander Walker. They resigned Randall and Reed and they send naw to Atlanta in a sign and trade was really just they couldn't afford salary move. And then even, even to a certain extent there's one more move and I'm forgetting that they did this exact thing with just recently. Anyway, the interesting thing about the Hawks is their two highest paid players. I mean they've got this young core which we're going to talk about in a second.

[Ban McMahon]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

But from a transaction standpoint, the Hawks two highest paid players are Trae Young and Porzingis. Both of them are sitting there extension eligible. Actually, Porzingis may not be able to extend for a while. Right. Bond temps till after the trade.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I think that these got to wait for the moratorium because they didn't do it at the time of the trade.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, so maybe Porzingis isn't on their plate right now and they can take a look at him for a few months before deciding. But Trey Young is and Young has a $49 million player option for next season. He can be. He can opt out of and become a free agent. And this is a classic case of the aprons under a different time. I think a guy who's been a franchise player still putting up great numbers is a guy that you may extend in the current era where you cannot get out over your skis on a big contract. I think the Hawks have got to be more cautious and I think that's one of the reasons they have not done a Tray Young extension or at least not made it a priority. They can certainly extend him throughout the season. It's not something that has to be done actually. Is your deadline on that bon temps? I never want to assume no.

[Tim Bontemps]

And I was and I had Porzingis backwards. They can do Porzingis anytime too. They're both extension eligible right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

When the Porzingis.

[Tim Bontemps]

Because they can both. Because they can both be free agents. They both can be extended all the way to the end of the season.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. So that's a thing. And one, you know, there's always a dozen or so things on media day that you want to see and One of the things on media day is what Trey Young says about that. Whether Trae Young is going to, you know, be voice, you know, make this an issue or not, certainly something to keep an eye on. But that is a big thing for the Hawks going forward because, you know, they have some money tied up in Jalen Johnson, who unfortunately missed most of last season with a shoulder injury, but is one of their really good young players. There's excitement around Zachary Richache, although I obviously didn't mention Rische amongst the standout players in. In Eurobasket, he did. Okay. He. You know, I was talking to some scouts and they told me that, you know, Risachet and Bilal Koulibaly, both of them are a little young to compete at the Eurobasket level. Even though they're high draft picks, they're still young. And that's a tournament largely played with men. And that that showed up. Although Richer Shea did shoot over 40% on threes. He did not start. He came off the bench. He only played 17 minutes a game. Koulibaly. Yeah, go ahead, McMahon.

[Ban McMahon]

Given the way Reese Schaef played in the second half of the season, I think it's fair to say that he. His middling performance in Eurobasket was a pretty massive, massive disappointment. Like, yeah, he's young. He was also number one.

[Brian Windhorst]

It was a disappointment. I don't know if it was massive. I would, you know, just the scouts.

[Tim Bontemps]

This guy, I would say he was fine. Like, he. They didn't start him. He came off the bench and was fine. Like, he didn't blow. He didn't have a great tournament. But he also was. They had him in a bit role, which is, you know, not a new story for France. As we know. They tend to take a while to lean on any of the young guys. I mean, I'd certainly say. I would say Blal Koulo Bali had a pretty disappointing tournament.

[Ban McMahon]

They seem to lean pretty heavily on a young guy in the Olympics. What? I forget his name.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, sure, yes. If. If we're. I mean, as far as comparing every. If we're comparing everybody to Victor, then there's going to be a lot of disappointments. I don't think anybody.

[Ban McMahon]

My point is receiving. I get it was a week, but he's not.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yes.

[Ban McMahon]

He's not one overall pick. Let's not give. Treat him with kid gloves.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm not. I just wouldn't say it was like, he's not Cooper Flag and he's not Victor Wimbanyama. Like, I think we're just Being realistic about it, I would say he had a middling tournament. Like Brian said, he shot the ball well. He did okay, I think. Look, I would say long term the guy that he reminds me of is another French guy who just got celebrated for having a long decorated international career. I believe is retired. And Nick Batum like I think that's the kind of player I think he's going to be long term. And Nick Batum I don't think ever made an all star team but is.

[Brian Windhorst]

A very, made a lot of money.

[Tim Bontemps]

But he made a lot of money.

[Brian Windhorst]

He hasn't retired right?

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, he retired, retired from France. They honored him summer. But that's a guy who as a 610 versatile guy who could shoot the three and guard multiple positions was an incredibly valuable long term, high level role player. And I, I think that's probably the destiny for Risher Shay in the NBA and like I think he's on track to do that. So that's all like to me coming out of that tournament I can at least see that path for him. We're two years into Blockoula Bali's career and we haven't seen a lot of growth yet from him. I mean there's been flashes of stuff but I, it's going to be interesting to see what he looks like this year. But yeah, like if you're, if you're looking at Richache and thinking hey is this guy going to be a five time all star? I think you're probably going to be disappointed. But if you look at this year's draft, I don't think there's a lot of guys who are in that conversation coming out of it either or last.

[Ban McMahon]

Year I should say what's interesting to me about the Hawks, they obviously made win now moves, put them in a position where you know, top four in the east home court advantage in the first round should be a possibility. You know they should definitely be vaulted out of their perennial spot in the play in team and they've put together a team or a young core that really seems to complement Trae Young well And by complimenting him well I'm primarily talking about can protect him on the defense. Vin with Dyson Daniels, with you know Reese Sachet, you know Porzingis's rim protection, you know, some Jalen Johnson's length and athleticism. But when to get back to your thing, the long term outlook for Trae Young in Atlanta is murky. At the minimum at this point this is a guy, he has been the face of the Atlanta Hawks for seven years, he's averaged 25 and 10, you know, just led the league in assists. You know, his, his offensive production has been elite, but there's question marks about whether this is going to, you know, be a long term marriage. And like, I understand. And he, and he has, like, listen, he, he had big time playoff success. The man took a bow on the floor. Madison Square Garden, but that's the only, that one run to the Eastern Conference finals is the only playoff success that they've had. And I get, you know, I, I get taking a cautious approach to committing to Trey Young as a maximum salaried face of a franchise. If you're trying to make a, you know, put together a contender.

[Tim Bontemps]

We talked about this a few weeks ago. This is very simply a recognition of the new reality that the NBA is in. Five years ago, Trae Young would have gotten a max and he'd already be signed. But we're not in the NBA five years ago. We're in the NBA of today. And you have to be judicious on who you're giving out max deals to. And Trey is a really good player. But, you know, this is, this is part of why I've said many times I was very down on the de' Aaron Fox acquisition and then contract. If you look around the league, the market for point guards is just not very high. There's a lot of good point guards and a lot of teams have them. So if you just look around the league and say, okay, Trey's going to be free agent in a year, where is he going to go? Like, there's just not a lot of places where you go, hey, we're going to get an obvious upgrade adding Trey Young. And that's not the Trey Young is bad is that there's a lot of really good point guards. And so the bar to clear to do that is pretty high. And Trey is also a guy who is a very small guard, who last year played with Achilles issues for a lot of the year, obviously has his defensive issues because of his size. And if you have them on your team, sort of like Jalen Brunson, though, they're very different players in many ways. You kind of have to play a certain way. If those guys are on your team, they're going to have the ball a lot, they're going to pound the ball a lot, they're going to control the offense. And so, you know, Trey, Trey is very good. And I think the Hawks have put together a team with all this size and length around them that actually fits Trey really well. But as you said, McMahon, if I'm the Hawks, I'm going to Trey Young. And I'm saying, listen, you've had a great career in Atlanta. We'd like to keep you here long term. Like you to have a potentially a statue. Certainly every Jersey retired, you're going to go down as. I mean, I think he's the best player since Dominique that's been there. You could maybe argue for one or two other guys, but he led them to the conference finals. He's put up huge numbers like you said McMahon. And you know, part of that's going to be okay. Trey, like, do you want to test the market and get a max somewhere? Do you want to get a max from Sacramento or Brooklyn or some random team and go play there? Or do you want to take less and stay here and allow us to have you with Jalen Johnson and Nikki Alexander Walker and Zachary Rishi and Dyson Daniels and Chris Asporzingis and Onyeka Kongwu who by the way shot like 39 on threes down the stretch and could be a very interesting player this year. Like they have the kind of roster that could potentially be a great fit with Trey going forward. But if Trey wants a max, if I'm the Hawks, I, I can't give Trey Young a max in his late 20s at, at his size. And the way that position tends to age, like, I don't think that deal will age well and it will prevent them from doing a lot of other stuff they want to do. So that that's the kind of real negotiation that has to go on. And it's the kind of real negotiation that I think a lot more teams should be having. And to this point, not many of them have been. It's why we've talked so much about the contracts Houston's given out because they have positioned themselves with the deals they've made and the contracts they've signed to have a really deep roster that's also really good and have really good high end talent and that's going to give them a chance potentially go toe to toe with the Thunder who have all these young guys and have you kind of have a head start on dealing with all this stuff. So.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right.

[Tim Bontemps]

When you talk to be fascinating all.

[Brian Windhorst]

Time great Hawks, obviously you're starting with Bob Pettit.

[Ban McMahon]

Ah, I was waiting for a way to get a Bob Pettit reference.

[Tim Bontemps]

I didn't say, I didn't say since Dominique.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know, it's just, man, who's Al Horford or Trey Young, now remember, Al Horford was on some tea. He, they both have four all star appearances at hall as Hawks. Al Horford was on some teams. Like they had 60 win teams. Al Horford was on.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I don't know, man.

[Ban McMahon]

Al Horford, let's see they got out of this.

[Tim Bontemps]

You could argue for Dikembe, you could argue, you could argue for Joe Johnson. You could argue for like, you could argue. But I, I would say Trey, I.

[Ban McMahon]

Would, I would say Trey. I would say again, Trey's offensive production. I mean, it's, it's not as high as the guy got traded for on draft night. And he's always going to kind of be linked there. Although he outlasted Luca as far as their team. Yeah, the first franchise goes, but you know, Trey's.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, well, Lucas team didn't want to sign him to the third contract and.

[Ban McMahon]

And they didn't want to sign to the supermax for sure. And look, I, I don't blame the Hawks for not wanting to commit the, the full max here, but I, I, on the flip side of that, you know, I think they can honestly look Trey in the eye and say, hey, we have invested in building a roster that around you that really fits, that we believe is going to really give us a chance to win, and we would prefer that you'd be part of that. And then you've got to say, at this price, I don't know what exactly, you know, I don't know what exactly the right price is. I just know it ain't the max.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. Okay, so the Miami Heat next up here in our forecast, 39 and 43 play in team in the Eastern Conference. Last year, the Heat won just 37 games. That was their fewest wins since the first year after LeBron left. And that was the year where Chris Bosh had one of his bud Clots only played 40 games. And let's see, Wade played 62 games that year, but that was, you know, that was the, their worst, their sort of lowest production team in a decade. In the off season, their big move was trading for Norman Powell. They got a very good value in that deal. They have a couple of significant contract decisions. Tyler Herron, we had this conversation a few months ago comparing Young and Hero. They're both kind of in the same boat. Tyler Hero has one year left on his contract. He cannot be a free agent this summer. He is. There is no option. So the, the demand with Hero is not the same. And I will point out that a year ago, in this exact spot, not that Tyler Herro and Jimmy Butler are the same. The Heat stance was, let's see, a year, for another year, and then we'll take a look. Now, obviously, certain players in the past, they have extended. They extended Butler early. Before that, they extended Bam Adebayo early. Bam was the most recent.

[Tim Bontemps]

If you look at their roster, like we've talked about before, it looks like they're setting up for 27 and some to some degree. So I don't think he'll be getting extended.

[Ban McMahon]

No.

[Tim Bontemps]

Barring him taking some huge discount to stay there or something, obviously. But I think short of that, he'll. He won't be extending.

[Ban McMahon]

I don't think it's fair to Trey Young to put Tyler Herro at his level.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would agree. Excuse me, sir. Tyler here was an all star last year.

[Ban McMahon]

Okay. Trey Young is a significantly more accomplished.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. But it's the same. It's the same thing. You're trying to decide whether it's the max or not. You're trying to decide whether or not to pay a guy who's sub superstar.

[Ban McMahon]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, so. So when you look at the Heat, you have a couple of questions of them. One, are they satisfied with sticking around and trying to be a play in team or which direction are they going to go? You know, the Heat ethos is you always try to maximize your team. The other thing is they have a couple of guys like, what do they do with Andrew Wiggins? When they traded for Wiggins, you know, as, you know, the key piece that they got back for Jimmy Butler, I think they saw a vision of what he could, of how he could fit with them. In the case of Wiggins, he can be a free agent after this season, although I think the likelihood of him turning down a $30 million player option based on where he's played during this contract with the warriors and then with the Heat is unlikely.

[Tim Bontemps]

It depends how his year goes. If he has a good year, he'll opt out.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. But I, you know, he's also extension eligible, but I don't think that their Heater. I'm not sure there's much of a real conversation to have there right now. But also, is Wiggins a guy who they would consider retrading? You know, is that a player in the market who they would consider, you know, seeing what they could, what they could get. They really liked the upside of Khalil Ware, who had a very good second half of his rookie season. They made him off limits in various trade talks, and then they have sort of the perplexing case of Jaime Hawkes, who had an excellent rookie year and a big time sophomore slump, where I think the Heat were not thrilled with his overall demeanor after his success after his rookie year. So there's a lot of could go one way or the other. Then they have the exception expiring contract of Terry Rozier. Obviously Rozier has been a huge disappointment on a number of fronts, but if you look at, you know, their future draft picks, they, they've, they've moved past the draft pick that they owed the Heat. I'm sorry, that they owed the Thunder. So they're in better control of their future picks. They still have an outstanding pick, I think that they might have given for a year, I'm not sure. But they, they're in good, they're in decent position with their picks because they got that, you know, they've got some young players on their roster. If there becomes a star player available is what I'm beating around the bush here. The Heat are in position to put together an offer. I'm not sure it can trump everybody else's offer, but with the collection of young players, draft picks and contracts that they have that can be moved, they could be a hunter in a case of a star player becoming available. So in the past, why they didn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

Trade, that's why they didn't trade for Kevin Durant, because they, they did not push their chips in on Kevin Durant because they were not close enough to being good enough, which I think was the correct move as we've talked about before, and because there's not going to be a shortage of guys in the future who have a preference to play in Miami. So unlike other teams, the Heat have the ability to wait on some of these things and sometimes their fans get mad that they haven't, you know, added more guys in recent years or whatever. But I don't think anybody looking at the Heat the way the last couple of years went to me should have looked at and said what they should do is trade a bunch of stuff for Kevin Durant that was not going to make them a team that's good enough to contend in the East. If Kevin Durant was on his team instead of Andrew Wiggins, you wouldn't be talking about them as a top three team in the East. Maybe they'd be fourth, they'd probably be fifth or sixth. They'd be like Milwaukee and these other teams like be pretty good. But they're not going to be a difference making team. And to your point, they have the ability, if Somebody pops up and says, I really want to go to Miami to at least make a decent pitch for.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah, the Heater, known for two things, paragraph in the paint culture and star hunting. Right. And listen, they always are going to be on the list for stars.

[Brian Windhorst]

I would say this, though. Well, go ahead. I'm sorry, but they're always going to.

[Ban McMahon]

Be on the list for stars. And just like you guys have laid out, whether it is setting themselves up to. To be big fishers in the free agency market coming up here in a couple of summers, or in the trade market now, it feels like the Heat are kind of. They're in an in between phase right now. Right. They're in the post Jimmy Destruction when. What's our next chapter phase?

[Brian Windhorst]

A year ago, I looked at the lay of the land and said, somebody is going to want to raise their hand and say, get me to San Antonio. I do not feel that way about Miami. I think there's people want the taxes, they want the city of Miami.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

This isn't a roster that you look at and say, boy, they add a shrewd trade and they're going to take off. And that's not a shot at Bam or anybody else. They've had a lot of success in the last decade, even post LeBron, two trips to the finals. But I'm not excited about this team now. They could make two moves and change everything. And they have a long history of making shrewd moves. I am sure that they will be a very competitive team. I'm sure that Spolster will get the most out of them. I'm sure they will have many teams go in there to Miami and take it on the chin, because that is the way it is. But I'm not excited right now about this team.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I mean, last year, to me, they. They're over. Under, I believe, is 37 and a half, which I think is the best bet on the board. Last year, it's. It's somewhere in the high 30s. It's your 37, 38 or 39 and a half. And last year, as you said, I believe they went 37 and 45, and they were 14 and 28 in clutch games and had just catastrophically bad numbers in the fourth quarters of games to, like a comical level. They're getting outscored by like 17 points per 100 in the clutch. They were like one of the two or three worst teams in the fourth quarter in the whole league. It became clearly a psychological thing as the year went along. I don't think that's going to continue. Yeah. 38 and a half. Thanks, Jackson. So I think they're going to be better and I think they'll be competitive. And I think a full season of Wiggins getting Norm Powell essentially for free, having Tyler Herro, you know, having ascended at another level as a player. He had a very good year last year. Bam. Had a particularly, I think, pretty bad season by his standards. He was not very good offensively throughout the year. I expect he'll be better. I think that's more of an anomaly than a. Than a. Some kind of new trend for him. So I think they'll be better. But, yeah, to your point, like, yeah, unless there's a thing that changes, whether it's Khalil Ware really pops or Nikola Jovic really pops or, you know, they make a couple moves that we don't see right now. Yeah, I think they're a team that's going to be the sort of team that they've been, which is, like, competitive in the east, but not overwhelmingly so, which I think is part of why they didn't rush to extend Jimmy. And I think it's why they're mining their P's and Q's and waiting to see what comes along over the next couple of years.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. The Charlotte Hornets, who are on an extended playoff list streak. I should look it up, but our.

[Tim Bontemps]

Forecast has 2016, I believe when they. When they lost to the Heat in seven games, I believe is the last time they made the playoffs.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's a tough decade. Hornets, 26 and 56 in our projections. Big off season moves. They swapped out Yousef Nurkic for Colin Sexton. They drafted Con canipple, which I think would probably be what their big off season would. They took on Pat Connaughton in a salary dump. Look, I don't know what to say. I have no idea how many games Lamelo was going to play. He has not been able to be a significant factor for the last couple of years because of those ankle injuries. I know that they have searched high and low and examined all kinds of different things and talked about different training and different things they could put in his shoe and all this kind of stuff. But it was 47 games last year. The year before was 22. The year before was 36. He was an all Star the last time he played more than half of the games. Well, I guess he played more than half last year. He played 75 and 21, 22 and was an all star after being Rookie of the year. So I don't know, I think you're, if you're watching this team, you're saying Knippel and Brandon Miller are your bets that they develop into the kind of wings that are difference making players and you hope Lamelo stays healthy. And I think if you're looking at them, they are in good position picks wise, a lot of this because they keep making trade with the Suns, getting picks and you know, they have some possible trade pieces on their roster. But I don't know if you're watching them, you're looking for Knipple and whether Lamelo can stay healthy. I'm not sure what else to say.

[Ban McMahon]

I think when you're talking about possible trade pieces, Lamelo is one of them.

[Brian Windhorst]

Interesting. He's got four years and 107, 107 70, 180 million level.

[Tim Bontemps]

But this is sort of, this is sort of like to your, I mean, I don't disagree with you, McMahon, but this is sort of a Zion Williamson situation where like again, Lamelo is a big time talent as a player. He's also not been able to stay on the court. But set aside any, set aside anything, any other criticism. You have his game, right? Yeah, he hasn't been available. So before you have any discussion to me, if you're Charlotte, before you have any discussion of whether you should or should not trade Lamelo, I think the first thing you have to see is can the guy play 70 games? Because if you can't play 70 games, you probably shouldn't trade him anyway because you're not getting any kind of value back to make it worth trading them at that point.

[Ban McMahon]

So, and that's, that's exactly it. The question should, should or should you not trade Lamelo? The answer is determined by, okay, what kind of value is there for him in the market? And right now it's not nearly enough because you can't rely on him being out on the floor. And then, you know, just, there's a lot of issues with the style of play and you know, we've, we've gone over that and Hornets, Reddick gets all fired up and, but it's, you know, look man, the, the facts are the facts. It is a very difficult way to win when you have a guy who's just chunking up garbage and reaching on defense and doesn't seem to really care all that much about winning unless it's like there's a contest to see who gets the most Instagram likes.

[Tim Bontemps]

Oh, and this is another example of, I mean, we're going to talk about it with the Next team up too, I think, in that you mentioned it, Brian. Like since Rich Null and Gay Plotkin, the owners of the Hornets took over a couple of years ago, I think they've done a really nice job.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, yeah, they've made some smart trades. I agree.

[Tim Bontemps]

They made smart trades. I think Charles Lee's got a chance to be a good head coach. Jeff Peterson's a well regarded guy. They hired him to run the team. You know, they, they've, they've done a good job accumulating assets, but, you know, like, they haven't been lucky in the lottery. They drafted Dijon Saloan last year, the French wing who's a very long term project. Like, he's a very raw, big again, another big, long, athletic wing that he has a. There's a lot of refinement to be done for him to become a finished product. Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't, but that was a big swing. They obviously didn't get up into the top couple of spots this year. You know, Khan was, I think, sort of the consensus fourth player in the draft and they drafted him fourth, which is fine. I think he's got a chance to be a nice player for them. But, you know, they had Mark Williams, they thought they had the stuff from the Lakers back in the spring. They end up flipping him for Liam McNeely, who was a guy who was a top 15 or 20 pick all year, who fell to the end of the first round and a future pick, which is decent business. But again, Mark Williams was a guy who they drafted. Not this regime, but the prior one drafted, I believe at 14 or 15 in the first round. Yeah. So, you know, they're just, despite the fact that they've been bad the past several years, they're still kind of stuck at the beginning, you know, not too different from Utah and some of these other teams in terms of trying to turn the ship around. And your process can be good and sound on this stuff, but if you don't get talent in the door, it doesn't really matter. And you know, that's, that's why this year is going to be, to me, be very interesting for Charlotte. Can we see Brandon Miller stay healthy after he got hurt last year? Can we see LaMelo Ball actually stay on the court? Can we see Solomon take some steps forward? What will Canipal look like? Like, they're probably not going to be very good, but it's really not about that. It's about can we see some improvement from these young guys? And most Importantly, as we go back to the beginning, can we see Lamelo ball on the court and producing for, for, you know, an award, minimum level of games or more.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm gonna say something about Lamello one more thing before I move on. He's. His three point percentage is dipped three years in a row and meanwhile, over that span, he shot 40% more. Freeze. So I expect your, your percentage would go down a little bit with more volume, but you know, you're not looking for a guy in his early 20s to have his three point percentage go down three years in a row while he's putting up.

[Tim Bontemps]

I mean, that's, I mean, that's fine. I, it almost doesn't matter to me. Like, I, He's. He's played so little overall that like, I. None of it matters if he can't play more than 47 games. Like, if we're talking about, if we're back here talking about the Hornets next summer and he's played 45 games again or 50 games again or 40, whatever. Like. Yeah, then it's just. Then we're just in the Zion Williamson territory with him going forward and then you can't do anything with your team.

[Ban McMahon]

The Hornets are a team searching for a direction and he has to be either on the floor or in a trade for this team to find their direction.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Our last team in the east, in the Southeast, the Washington wizards, projected at 20 and 62. 15th.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah. And likely last in the East.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. In a long term rebuild. In the off season, they traded for CJ McCollum and now have a couple of grownups.

[Ban McMahon]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

They hope will with him and Chris Middleton. You know, the thing about last year.

[Tim Bontemps]

I would argue they. I would argue they traded out of Jordan Poole more than they traded for CJ McCallum.

[Brian Windhorst]

Agree.

[Ban McMahon]

As you said, they've got some at.

[Tim Bontemps]

Least out of his contract.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. I think the big thing was they knew that they were not going to be a good team last year. They were obviously tanking, but they were for three months, give or take, had the worst differential in the history of the NBA. They were. They were absolutely not making progress. After the trade deadline, they made some moves. They traded for Middleton and Marcus Smart and they, they. Alex Sar. We'll say it's Alex Saar who was the number two overall pick last year after the All Star break. Sixteen points, six rebounds. Only shot 40% from the field. Okay. We mentioned Koulibaly. So Koulibaly, he only shot 42% for the French national team. Alex Sar was on that team. I just don't think he's, he was not in the rotation. He only played two games. I just don't think he's physically ready to play in that. I don't think he was.

[Ban McMahon]

And he's just such a bad offensive player right now. Honestly, both of them are just very bad offensive players. They both have really big time potential on the defensive end. But man, like, it's hard to play two guys who just are that dreadful offensively in a league that's better offensively than it's ever been. And, and you know, you mentioned just, it's one thing we understand if it's not tanking, like being bad part of the plan, you're trying to get top level talent, etc. Okay. But when you've got these young lottery picks and they're playing this just like no hope, awful team, that, that's when you worry about like the development of these guys and the Jazz or kind of in a similar boat, like you want to at least have good habits developing, you know, culture, competitiveness. And honestly, as bad as they're going to be, that is a concern. I think that's why it's so important to have McCollum and Middleton there. Although I cannot imagine either of those guys are, are thrilled to be Washington Wizards. Except for, you know, I'm sure like the 1st and 15th of every month are still pretty good, but they're not.

[Brian Windhorst]

They're both on the last year of their contract, so we'll see how that works out. Look at the bright side. They did, you know, they drafted Trey Johnson. They got incredibly unlucky in the lottery. There couldn't have been worse. They drafted Trey Johnson and then they got, you know, they took the flyer on Cam Whitmore. The Rockets had to offload some salary.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was a very smart, it was a very smart trade for them to make make like that's a zero risk for them.

[Ban McMahon]

Well, the Rockets had to unload some salary and also having Whitmore occasionally sulking it on the bench wasn't a good thing.

[Brian Windhorst]

But yeah, he had, we had that great game last year and they went to postgame to talk to him and.

[Ban McMahon]

Then it was a very bizarre interview. And, and you know, there was like his, his maturity needs to improve. But you talk about an NBA athlete, a guy who can put the ball in the hole like he has potential.

[Tim Bontemps]

He'S going to get opportunities there. Like he's, he's going to get as many opportunities as he wants.

[Ban McMahon]

He's definitely.

[Brian Windhorst]

And that's Also what I would say about Trey Johnson too, you know, hey, A.J.

[Ban McMahon]

Johnson was a nice little swing for them, you know, that they got in that Kuzma deal along. Like there's, you know, like that's. The Wizards are doing what they're supposed to be doing in terms of like finding ways to take high ceiling swings around the margins. But rebuilds are really hard when you don't have big time lottery luck and when you know the lottery picks that you have drafted aren't close to being starting caliber players at this point.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, it's what we just talked about with Utah and Charlotte. Right. Like the Wizards process has been good. They've made solid trades. Like, you know, they've, they're building out a roster, they're taking swing like you just said, McMan, they've got I think 11. How many first round picks they have on this team? Alex R, Trey Johnson, Bilakula Bali, Bub Carrington, Cam Whitmore, Will Riley, AJ Johnson, Kaishan George, Dylan Jones. Although that's eight or nine guys who are all on rookie scale, first round pick contracts. I'm not saying they're all going to be stars. Like they're not going to be, but that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to take swings on guys. You're supposed to take chances on guys they're not all going to hit. Like that's what the Thunder did. That's what like a lot of good teams have been built from that process. But the process is only as good as the talent you get in the door. And again to go to use the Thunder example, because these guys have some Thunder people in house. Right? They get. Yeah, well, exactly. That's my point. They get Gils Alexander in the trade. Yes. They get the second pick. You get Chad Holmgren. They also get Jalen Williams at 12. Right. You don't have to just get the first or second pick every year. And I'm not trying to say it's easy or like anything like that. It's not. But you gotta, if you do this at some point, you gotta get talent in the door. And for as good as their process has been, like Charlotte, I think overall they've both been good. They don't have a lot of surefire talent yet. It's a lot of potential and question marks and that's why it's probably going to be, you know, another long year there with them, hoping that they can get one of the top four picks and what's a loaded draft again next year.

[Ban McMahon]

Well, I'm going to give the this Wizards front office regime credit for getting the answer right about when's the best time to plant a tree. Because the first thing they did when they got there was they planted the tree of their rebuild. They traded Bradley Beal. They got out of that. That deal for a. Look, the Wizards were a Purgatory team for a while. They got out of the BL deal despite the, you know, no trade clause. And it wasn't about what they were getting necessarily. It's more about what they were getting off of and just, you know, getting out of the purgatory and going into a rebuild. But that tree has not bared a whole lot of fruit to this point.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's true. Well done. Well done. Thanks. Beautiful. You should be a writer.

[Ban McMahon]

No, I think about these tree analogies a lot. Because you like to use that one.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you. Yeah. Well, I heard you are doing soon, you know, working on a new property, and you're going to be looking into landscaping, so.

[Ban McMahon]

Do you know what trees is slang for?

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm afraid I look it up. Okay. All right. And that concludes our coverage of the Washington wizards in the 2520s. Just kidding. Just kidding. All right. Pretty close. All right. Thank you very much to Jackson. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bon Temps. Thank you for watching and listening to Collective and sticking with us through start of the football season. We'll be talking to you later this week.

[Ban McMahon]

Adios, amigos.

[Tim Bontemps]

You've seen the headlines, heard the debates.

[Brian Windhorst]

The three point ball has created a.

[Tim Bontemps]

Monotonous rhythm to the game. Has the three pointer ruined basketball?

[Ban McMahon]

And how did we get here?

[Brian Windhorst]

The rise of the three point shot can be partially traced to an eccentric Kansas genius named Martin Manley, whose story.

[Tim Bontemps]

Didn'T turn out quite the way he imagined.

[Ban McMahon]

I decided I wanted to have one of the most organized goodbyes in history.

[Brian Windhorst]

30 for 30 podcast presents Chasing Basketball Heaven.

[Tim Bontemps]

Available now wherever you get your podcasts.