← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
NBA To Fix Tanking? Celtics Most Intriguing Team in NBA? + Draymond Drama Continues
00:59:03
Hoop Collective: NBA To Fix Tanking? Celtics Most Intriguing Team in NBA? + Draymond Drama Continues
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- [00:02]
Commercial Announcer
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Brian Windhorst
Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the the NBA which you're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from San Jose, California where you spend in the holidays is Tim Bonteps.
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Wendy Loyd
Hello, everybody.
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Brian Windhorst
Join us from Dallas, Texas, where he's always on some level of holiday is Ban McMahon.
- [00:48]
Ban McMahon
Howdy, partners. I believe I'm the only one who's actually really doing some work this week.
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Brian Windhorst
You look very, you're very nicely dressed. Like what a professional.
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Ban McMahon
I mean, fresh off NBA today. Had to. Nuggets, Mavericks. Wendy, where are you? What NBA city are you in?
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Brian Windhorst
I am not in an NBA city, but there's a lot of NBA fans here where I'm at.
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Wendy Loyd
I'm going to go to warriors practice on Wednesday. I'm going to do one thing.
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Brian Windhorst
I will be attending. I'm planning to attend Pistons Clippers on Sunday in la.
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Ban McMahon
Nice of you to have a little layover there.
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Brian Windhorst
Yeah, well, you know, I'll spend some time in la. All right. So, okay, I'm gonna take a deep breath here and we're gonna begin to talk about tanking. This is one of those topics that gets people into their feelings. Okay. Shams has a story that came out on Tuesday. He referenced it, I think in a report last week about a discussion that is being had amongst NBA owners about potentially some new anti tanking measures. There have been tanking measures, anti tanking measures put in over the years. There was apparently a board of governors meeting which Bontemps is out of sequence. Right. That there shouldn't have been a board of governors meeting.
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Wendy Loyd
Yeah, I don't know if there was. I mean they have calls periodically, so I would guess this was like a.
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Brian Windhorst
Yeah, it wasn't that they didn't get together.
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Ban McMahon
Yeah, yeah.
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Wendy Loyd
There's. There's like four meetings a year. One in March or April at the end of the season, one at one in July and then one in. One in July and summer league and then one in the fall before the season starts in New York. But they do have calls to like check in on stuff. So I'm sure this was one of those.
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Brian Windhorst
Okay. And so look, before we discuss this, I just want to, I just want to say something. I don't care if you have the best, I don't care if you've got a nine point plan that looks beautiful in a PowerPoint. I don't care if you can prove that it is a panacea for everything before you suggest or you get behind any sort of anti tanking stuff. You got to realize you've got to pass it through 23 owners, 23 teams have to agree with you for a change at this material. You need that to happen. So if you have some situation where you're not going to get pretty much the entire league to say yes to, you're wasting your time, energy and lawyers.
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Wendy Loyd
Which is why, for example, just to explain how this works, right. People have said for a long time what that there should be one to 30 for the playoffs. Just let's get rid of conferences. Let's just have it be doesn't matter if you east or west seat at 1 to 16. Top 16 teams, make it, put them in order, figure it out, right? There's nobody, because it's so far recently has been historically imbalanced towards the west. Nobody in the east is going to say, hey, I'm going to make my path harder. By the way, five years from now, perhaps there's a world where that flips around and it's way harder to, to get in the playoffs in the East. Well then if you're in the west, you're not going to have teams go, oh yeah, well now we're just going to make it harder for us to get in. That's just one example of this bigger thing where you need to have three quarters of the teams agree on something.
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Brian Windhorst
It's not so much the quality of the idea, it's the, you know, the ability to actually get it implemented. Okay, now that we have that as the top layer now we can have a discussion about this because people are in their feelings. We have seen in the last couple of years teams turn themselves into pretzels a little bit primarily because of pick protections where they've traded picks that are the top four protected or top eight protected or top ten protected. And we've seen teams do this. By the way, this is not new. When the Golden State warriors were building their team out 12, 14 years ago, they tanked at the end of a season to get the pick. What that.
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Wendy Loyd
Why did they pick up Harrison Barnes?
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Brian Windhorst
Harrison Barnes, okay, there's the infamous Mark.
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Wendy Loyd
Madsen game where he shot 7 million threes for the wolves 20 years ago so they could keep a draft pick as another example, right?
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Ban McMahon
It's not new. The league has tried to do things to address it. The flattening of lottery odds being the, probably the biggest change of late. And it's an issue now because of the gambling stuff.
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Wendy Loyd
Right.
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Ban McMahon
That's the primary reason that it's become such a front burner issue for the league. But just from a the perspective of somebody who likes basketball, it should be an issue anyways because March and April, NBA basketball is a bad product because so many teams are trying to tank.
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Brian Windhorst
Okay, so three provisions that Sham says that they're discussing. We will talk about them now, keeping in mind that 23 would have to say yes. Okay, so the first thing that's under discussion, limiting pick protections to either top four or 14 and higher, which would in theory eliminate teams like the 76ers last year, losing 19 their last 34 games to make sure that they kept their pick, which was top eight protected, which they kept by the skin of their teeth. Top six protected, top six protected, which they kept by the skin of their teeth and ended up being BJ Edgecombe. And those losses were absolutely smart under the circumstances. You can disagree about the strategy for the whole league, but their strategy that they employed produced them VJ Edgecombe and was a bad piece of business for the Thunder. Who would have gotten that pick if they did not tank?
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Ban McMahon
And the other famous one or infamous one in recent years is the Mavericks, when it was a top 10 protected pick owed the Knicks and they punted on. It was a slim chance, but they punted on a slim chance to qualify for the play in, you know, sitting all their guys, including Luka and Kyrie, ended up keeping the pick by the skin of their teeth. It was top 10 protected. They got the 10th overall pick, traded back a couple picks and ended up with Derek Liver ii, who the very next year helped him go to the Finals.
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Wendy Loyd
Right.
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Brian Windhorst
And so this year, the team that people are watching, although you know, there could be more tanking situations later on, are the Jazz, who have a top eight protected pick, also owed to the Thunder. And they performed, they've performed pretty well early in the season relative to expectations, too well. And I would say that one of the things when you watch the Jazz, they are hard to beat in Salt Lake City. So, I mean, I, within three weeks of this season, I identified that this was going to be a problem spot because the Jazz are good enough, particularly at home now. They're, they're, they're, they're especially these other.
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Wendy Loyd
Teams have been bad. Like the Mavericks got off to a horrible start.
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Brian Windhorst
That's right.
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Wendy Loyd
Clippers have been horrible. Pelicans got off to a horrible start. So they have to. Not only, not only are the Jazz winning some games, you were surprised by there's also been a lot more competition for spots in the top 10 than we necessarily would have anticipated two months ago.
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Brian Windhorst
Okay. Of these provisions, this is the one provision I actually think could pass because, you know, if your team is top four, it's a little bit different than if you're trying, if your team's trying to get inside top 10, inside top 8, inside top 6, this I actually could see happening. Of these, I don't know if you guys agree. I'm not sure how I make a.
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Ban McMahon
Difference because certainly some of the most egregious tanking examples come when they're the mid lottery or late lottery protections. And you know, this is the third straight year for the Jazz.
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Brian Windhorst
Also, if you're mid lottery, you're in a situation where you have the ability to win some games, but you are probably maneuvering not to. Like, if you are 8th or 10th, you know, the possibility is you could make the play in if you, you know, so it's even a worse. Look, if you're a horrible team, okay, maybe you might do some stuff to make sure you're in the bottom four, but you know, you're not going to be if you're, if you're aiming for bottom, if you're in the bottom four, you're probably not a playing team anyway. So. So I could see this happening. The second thing that Shams reports is that. And this one. Bontemps, I don't know how you feel about this. I think this is DOA in the cradle. Just, just this is my, my opinion. Without, like canvassing all 30 teams, no longer allowing teams to draft in the top four two years in a row. I don't think there's any way 23 now, again, you could, you could say, you could give me your 10 reasons why it makes sense. I don't think there's any way 23 teams are saying yes to this.
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Ban McMahon
I know one team that'll vote for it. I bet you the spurs will vote for it after they got 1, 4 and 2 in the last three drafts. I bet you, I bet you can get San Antonio. Yeah. Nobody else, Nobody else can do this.
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Wendy Loyd
Yeah. I don't think that one is happening. And what I would say on the pick protection thing, while I agree that has been obviously a sore spot in these discussions, I would also say that there's a lot of times where being on the margins and negotiating on the margins has really worked out for teams. One example I'll bring up that Bobby Marks mentioned to me on the phone this afternoon that I had forgotten about was when the James Harden trade to the Clippers happen a couple of years ago we did a pod, me, you and Pelton, Brian. And on the pod you talked about not liking the move the Thunder made. This is not exactly a pick protection. Just hold with me for a second. Where they traded a what was destined to be a late first round pick for a pick swap. He didn't like the move and the way they did the move for a variety of reasons, set that aside by them.
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Brian Windhorst
I don't recall Senator.
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Wendy Loyd
Yeah, that's fine. You didn't like the move. By forcing themselves into the trade and getting a pick swap with the Clippers, they now have an unprotected pickers pick. Clippers pick swap in 2027 on top of having their pick this year. By the way, I think it's safe to assume the Thunder will be better than the Clippers next year. Now that is not a pick protection thing. Obviously it's a different thing. But if you're a good team or you are a smartly run team, particularly in this new system, winning on the margins like that is how you can continue to get yourself in prime positions to get better players, to improve your team, etc. Etc. And I don't know if we want to be removing tools from the toolbox for teams because of this other stuff that's gone on. The other thing I will say that we sort of have not talked about in this. Right. The Sixers last year, let's say they there was some liberal use of resting players down the stretch of the season. Right. I would say there's been some liberal use of resting players at times in Utah over the past couple of years.
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Ban McMahon
Yeah.
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Wendy Loyd
And let's go to Calves Corner for a second. Cavs corner is very unhappy, I would say. Brian, you can disagree with me if you want that the league has come down on the Cavs on multiple occasions for having players rest during the season and getting dinged for.
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Brian Windhorst
They've been fined twice for 350,000 total, I believe. Right.
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Ban McMahon
And they're resting guys for the benefit of trying to be as good as they can be this season.
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Wendy Loyd
Correct. They're trying to win games. Right. So like let's just pull this back. Let's go back to the summer. Austin an who I've known a long time, think he's a great guy, think he's going to do a great job in Utah. He comes in in his introductory presser. First thing he says is, we're not doing any of this roster manipulation stuff anymore. We're full steam ahead. We're doing our thing. He trades all the older players.
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Brian Windhorst
Actions over words.
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Wendy Loyd
Well, the actions at the time were we're trading Colin Sexton, we're trading. We're trading these veterans, John Collins, we're trading these veteran players. We're going to play the young players and we're going to be back, right? And we're going to keep the pick. Now we come into the season, Keonte George is taking a big step forward. Larry Markkanen still really good use of Verkic has given him some minutes. They've got Kevin Love, you know, playing, having some big games occasionally, right. All of a sudden, now the Jazz are in danger of losing this pick. And, you know, there's some interesting stuff going on with the roster. Like if the NBA is going to look at the Cavs and the winning teams.
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Ban McMahon
Got to look at the Jazz, you.
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Wendy Loyd
Got to look at the losing teams.
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Brian Windhorst
And the Jazz were fined last year for.
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Wendy Loyd
Well, I'm just saying I feel like. I feel like if that I think is as much of a fix for some of this stuff as anything. I don't know if you're going to be able to find teams 25 times. But look, I would say that, for example, the Sixers have gotten hit multiple times for fines for Joel Embiid, you know, going from out to in or whatever for games, right? I'm not sure how many more times that's going to happen because at some point the owners look at it and go, why am I spending half a million dollars on injury reports? Right. I'm sure Dan Gilbert doesn't want to pay half a million dollars for injury reports, and I don't think Ryan Smith would want to pay half a million dollars in the future for injury reports. So that is another way to look at this stuff that, you know, goes beyond changing the rules. I don't know if you necessarily need to change the rules on some of this stuff.
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Ban McMahon
I think discussion of rule change is merited because I do think the tanking epidemic, honestly, I think it's the NBA's biggest problem. The not allowed in the top four consecutive years, to me is an interesting idea. I would even say, how about a team that's not allowed to have top four odds in consecutive years? Like, hey, if you. If you're worst record in the league two straight years, the next year You've got the fifth best odds and you're still, you know, it plays out how it plays out. We see teams jump every year. You know, last year the spurs didn't have the best odds. They jumped into the number two spot, obviously, the Mavericks doing the same.
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Brian Windhorst
Would 23 teams say yes?
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Ban McMahon
I don't know. That I don't know, but that's me. Is a compromise that would increase the odds of 23 teams.
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Wendy Loyd
I think. I think. Here's what I would say. Part of the reason we're in this new situation with this stuff is because of the flattening of the lottery odds. And it's created a lot more spots where you can jump up in the lottery. We've seen the Mavs, as part of the grand plan, jump up from 11. We saw the Hawks jump up from 10. We saw the Lakers jump up from 11. Seen a lot more like Derrick Rose for the Bulls was like the one time a team outside of like the top eight jumped up in 20 years, basically, right?
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Ban McMahon
Yeah.
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Wendy Loyd
The last five or six years since this change, there have been all kinds of teams jumping up from the mid to late lottery into the top three or four over and over and over again. So that's part of it. To your point, McMahon, hold on just one thing. The rule change that I would like to see implemented. If you're going to talk about rule changes. So when we've talked about before where you pick a point in the year when losses become wins, then your teams are going to be incentivized to play players and to be competing till the end. Now, I'm sure there are some people who would say they should be doing that anyway and why are they not doing that now? But the system is not incentivizing teams to do that when the best path to getting elite players, especially in small markets, is to get the highest draft pick you can. And if you turn that, that strategy into, for the final two months of the season, when to your point, McMahon, the product stinks. And the most egregious part of this stuff is going on. And you have it affecting playoff races also, for example, because you have some teams that are just not trying to win. You have other team they're playing teams that are trying to win as opposed to playoff teams playing each other, which is all random. And now it's. Well, everybody has incentive to play from, you know, whatever the All Star break on whatever time you set it. Yeah, you could maneuver that a little bit, but it's a lot harder to maneuver that than you Come back from the All Star game like say, Portland a couple years ago and you go 2 and 30 or whatever their record was, and they just plummet.
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Ban McMahon
More Hoop Collective podcast after this as.
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Brian Windhorst
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Wendy Loyd
So good, so good, so good.
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- [18:46]
Wendy Loyd
And.
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Ban McMahon
I like that idea. And Wendy, the third thing Sean's reported is a half measure of that. And not to go Breaking Bad, but like, don't do a half measure, they're saying, basically, I think it's March 1st. They identifies the date to like lock the lottery odds in. No, incentivize winning after that. Like, because you lock the lottery odds in and then it's just, you mail it in for the rest of the season. Incentivize winning for these franchises the rest of the way. You know, the, the other thing, I, I think there's some other things that are worth discussing. How about just playing the lottery out? Because what you see is teams not just tanking to increase their odds, but they're tanking to make their floor as low as possible. In other words, there's a difference between having the worst record and the second worst record. The odds are the same, but the difference is your floor with the worst record is the fifth pick, not the sixth. So get rid of the floors I think is something that, that's worth discussing. And then as far as things that would never be approved, I think if you're, if you're in the lottery there should be like a lottery repeater tax or reverse repeater tax. At a certain point you're not getting a full percentage of the, of the, of the revenue share.
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Brian Windhorst
That's an interesting concept. That's an interesting concept.
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Wendy Loyd
Here's all I'm going to say about any of these changes and like I, I get the merit of what you're saying. Big band with all these things. Right. However, let's look at Washington and Utah as two examples or Brooklyn even. Right. But Washington, Utah I think especially, yeah, these teams are, have been somewhere in the mid lottery the last couple years. Washington's been lower. They haven't had luck in the lottery. Right, right. They've landed well.
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Brian Windhorst
Washington got the number two pick, but.
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Wendy Loyd
They didn't get the number two pick once. Right. But like you with these new rules especially you can be in the middle or the top of the lottery year after year and still get the fifth pick, the sixth pick, the seventh pick over and over and over again. And like yes, you could certainly turn those into great players, no question about that. But like for as much as, for as well run an organization as the San Antonio spurs are getting the first, second and fourth pick in three straight lotteries, put them in a position that no other team could realistically be in in those same odds and we wouldn't be talking about the clip, the, the spurs in the same manner if they got the sixth, seventh and eighth pick in those three years, we'd be talking about the spurs mired in a rebuild and where are they going from here? Right. They might have a, they might have three picks like Jeremy Sohan who is looks like a fairly washed out for them at least mid lottery pick.
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Ban McMahon
I mean that's where, that's where the Jazz have been. They've, they've with them on their, you know, Keonte George is not leaving the lottery big. He's been their best guy from these last few drafts and they're, they drafted.
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Wendy Loyd
Cody Williams and Taylor Hendricks. Taylor Hendricks had the rough foot injury last year. He's trying to come back from that. Cody Williams has struggled so far. Like if you, if so if. My point is if you say okay, we're going to start, you know, we're going to move, remove the floor for these bad teams. Well, if you have the worst Say you have the worst or second worst record in the league and you end up with the ninth and 10th pick two years in a row. If you're like Washington, you're already making a difficult path to try to rebuild under these new rules that much harder. And you're only compounding the problem of there's going to be bad teams. And now you're making it that much harder for bad teams to have any real path to get better.
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Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Okay. So I don't know where this is going to land. My guess is there will be half measures. I will say this. The league did make a change last week to their rules, which was the injury reporting rules in the wake of the FBI indictments where teams have to be more aggressive in announcing day of game status changes. Basically like update after shoot around and it's already making a difference. And so there may be a half measure or two that may be in here that can make a difference. But the radical stuff, which is, you know, in my mind, the idea that, you know, most teams, if you go out there and look at the last 10 or 15 years, most teams have been in a situation where they've faced a rebuild and they've faced, maybe they didn't get a top four pick two years, but that was something that they wish that they would have gotten and those teams will remember where they were. Okay? So just keep that in mind. So I don't think a radical thing is going to work, but I do think you may see a tweak so that they can say that they did something.
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Wendy Loyd
I also just feel like a lot of this discussion ignores the fact that there has to be some path for bad teams to get good. And there has to be a plan, an ability for teams to rebuild, especially in small markets. And that in all this discussion of tanking, and I'm not saying that like tanking is good, but that part of the reality of sports, that there are good teams and bad teams, I do think sometimes gets set to the side when we talk about this stuff. Like there has to be some mechanism for a bad team to improve, regardless.
- [24:04]
Brian Windhorst
Of how the folks who own teams acquired their wealth. The NBA is a very much of a socialism system. The richer teams pool money to send to the poor, poorer teams, poorer, in quotes, the poorer teams, the best players in the league, take a cap on their salaries in part to fund the middle to the bottom to get higher salaries, and the worst teams get taken care of. It's not a complete Darwinism situation here. The worst teams are given, you know, if they, unless they bumble it and trade it away, are given the opportunity to improve, that's the, that's the situation. And the reason is because there are 30 teams and they're all partners and they all have an equal vote and they all vote to protect themselves, to protect their, their, their, their floors, in all honesty. And that is just a reality. You can, you can again, you can come up with the greatest position in the world, but that is just a reality of the way that the thing is designed. All right, welcome back to hoop collective with McMahon and Bontemps as we sit here and do this. On Tuesday afternoon, the Boston Celtics on a three game winning streak and winners of, I believe eight of their last 10 games are 18 and 11. And in third place in the Eastern Conference, Jaylen Brown, who before this season was one of these guys where if, you know, if you had a fantasy team, you would want him on the team because you knew he was going to be putting up numbers. But he has answered that bell tremendously and he has scored over 30 points, I believe, in seven straight games and.
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Ban McMahon
He'S averaging 29 and change.
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Brian Windhorst
And you know, the one thing about, about Boston is they've drafted pretty low obviously now for the better part of maybe seven or eight years. They've only had a pick outside. I mean, they've traded away some of their picks. I don't think they've had a pick outside the 20s.
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Ban McMahon
And they've drafted pretty low since they ran through all the nets picks that they had.
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Brian Windhorst
That's right. Well, talk about a team not wanting to draft, you know, two years in a row in the top four as a team that drafted number three two years in a row, when it was a basis for their rebound, it wasn't their pick.
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Ban McMahon
Yes, that's the best way to do it actually.
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Wendy Loyd
We're first and third too. And they traded back to three in the Tatum year.
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Brian Windhorst
Correct. So like, if you look at the guys who the Celtics have drafted recently and you see how they're getting contributions from them, like you look at what you know, okay, so you look at Jaylen Brown, he's having a great season. Derek White has warmed up recently. Peyton Pritchard is, you know, most improved player candidate. Again, can you, you know, what's the status?
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Wendy Loyd
I wouldn't, I wouldn't quite go there. But he's, but he's playing well for them. He's, he's a, he's a proven very good player.
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Brian Windhorst
So. And you look some of their picks, their recent picks, so they're you know, they're getting good production from Hugo Gonzalez, their first round pick taken with the 28th pick last year. They're getting, you know, rotation minutes from Baylor S.H. and Bobby Marks. I think it was Bobby who just did his top 25 best performing guys who are outperforming their contracts. He came out with that a couple of days ago and there was a top 15.
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Ban McMahon
You're mixing our lists up.
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Brian Windhorst
Yes, I'm sorry, top 15.
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Ban McMahon
He had the 15 best value contracts.
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Brian Windhorst
Okay. And I know that Nimi Keita was on there who they're paying. Like he's on a minimum, isn't he? Bon temps?
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Wendy Loyd
Yeah, he's on a multi year minimum. Yep.
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Brian Windhorst
And there was, I think there was one other Celtic on that list.
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Wendy Loyd
I would assume Jordan Walsh was also on the list. I have not read through the whole list.
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Brian Windhorst
Jordan Walsh, Yeah. Another jet. He was a second round pick. But what I'm saying here is the Celtics have just done. They've rolled up their sleeves and they've done a really nice job of on the margins. And yeah, you're not 18 and 11 without the powerhouse. That's Jaylen Brown. But like they're getting terrific production up and down. And that's a commentary on, you know, Joe Missoula. It's a commentary on their development system. It's a commentary on Brad Stevens. It's a commentary on their front office and their scouts like for, you know, forget about what's gonna happen with Jason Tatum because that's, you know, that's, you know, this is where this goes. It's like, well, when we. Tatum, just. This is a, this is a reminder of how a good franchise handles their business. And you know, they're, you know, this had, this hasn't been the toughest portion of schedule, but still they're putting themselves in a great position. And listen, Bontemps, like, I still don't see a team in the Eastern Conference that is going to keep teams awake at night. You know, there's certainly things that the Pistons do that are going to be hard to beat them. 4 out of 7. The Knicks continue to put up impressive games, but Boston has got to be sitting there thinking the table is still all there for them. It's all set for them.
- [29:13]
Wendy Loyd
Yeah, I mean, it's why I've said a couple times recently, you know, one of the biggest questions of the rest of this season is can Jason Tatum come back and what does he look like if he does? Because if he can come back and be even okay. And be a bigger body that they could play at the 4 and get some rebounds and make some shots and make some plays, especially for a team that does not have a lot of size. All of a sudden, the Celtics are really going to be a team nobody's going to want to play in the playoffs because they have championship experience. They've got a mad scientist coach who is hell bent on proving people wrong and has a giant chip on his shoulder in a good way. And like I've talked about it before going back to training camp, those guys had no interest in hearing about, oh, yeah, the Celtics should try to get AJ DeBancer, Darren Peterson, they should take a year off and, you know, let these guys rest up and get Tatum back and then come back in 26 and, you know, try to win. Then they were like, yeah, look, we're going to go for it now. We're going to try to win every game we can now. And, you know, they believe as an organization, that's the approach they should always take. They should try to be as good as they can be all the time and see where it gets them. And like you said, it's a real credit to Joe Missoula and his player development staff, Craig Lucianat and the other guys they have doing that, where you're talking about a rookie in Hugo Gonzalez playing real minutes for them. Jordan Walsh, a guy who has barely played the last couple of years, hitting 40% of his threes on limited volume and doing a lot of, you know, garbage. Garbage pail, you know, defense, hustling, offensive rebounding kind of stuff to help them win games. And, you know, they're developing from their perspective the next group of role players to surround. Those three or four core guys with Peyton Pritchard and Derrick White and. And Jaylen Brown and obviously Jayson Tatum when he gets back. And they're still going to have work to do to catch up to the Thunders of the world and the other, I would say, power teams in the west in order to really get back to being a true championship contender. But you said it, Brian. The Eastern Conference is wide open, probably as wide open as the conference has ever been. There's nobody. You're going to sit there and say, I am positive they're breaking through and winning. And the Celtics are the one team of that whole group that's gotten to the finals, has won a title, and has guys that are going to walk into any situation in the playoffs feeling confident about what they can do.
- [31:41]
Ban McMahon
Okay, so they've got, at least you can squint and Envision a way for the Celtics to make a deep playoff run, maybe even come out of the east this year. How does anfriending Simons fit in all this? A guy who, when they made the trade, it was a financially motivated trade to get off of Drew Holiday salary. You bring in Simons on trying to.
- [32:07]
Brian Windhorst
Retrade him almost immediately on the $28.
- [32:10]
Ban McMahon
Million expiring salary, explored trading him immediately to further slash salary. And you look, he's not putting up the numbers that he did in Portland. Obviously that's not his role. He's a bench bucket getter in Boston. If they can, if they can find a deal that's just slashing salary with Simons involved. Is that something they do? Or do they look at this and saying, you know what, having that kind of firepower coming off the bench in the playoffs has some value to it. Let's, let's not do anything that would compromise our chances of making a playoff run.
- [32:49]
Wendy Loyd
I don't think that's the question with Anthony Simons. I think the question with Anthony Simons is this. The Celtics have the Celtics started the summer on pace to be the first $500 million team in the history of the league. When Jason Tatum got hurt, that was never a scenario that was going to happen. Maybe it would have happened if they got to the finals and won the title. Maybe even if Jason Datum got hurt, they would have done it for one more year or hadn't gotten hurt when he got hurt. That was obviously not going to happen. So does Brian said as they started making these trades, moving off Chris Esperzingis moving off Jrue Holiday, they were trying to move off Anthony Simons again to keep lowering that tax bill. Right. I think the question is not do they keep Anthony Simons for the playoff run or do they try to shed salary? I think the question is do they shed salary or do they use Anthony Simons to get another piece to be part of their long term outlook and sort of say, well, we're going to be in the repeater tax anyway if we can find a big or some other player that we like here for the long term and use that salary slot. Is that something we try to do and improve our chances of making a deep playoff run this year and having more firepower going forward? Because frankly, I don't think Anthony Simon is going to have a very big role in the playoffs either way. They're going to be playing Derek White and Peyton Pritchard a ton of minutes. He's not at all a good defensive player. I think he'll be a liability in large part in the playoffs anyway. But that's a $27 million expiring that if they want to use it to maneuver the roster around and get some more depth or get some more size or do some other things and get a guy under contract who they like, that's the thing. I'll be curious to see if they do. Or do they just try to get that extra 12 million down lower and get out of the tax completely and reset the repeater clock. I think that is the question with how good they've been and where the E sits, that I think it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next six weeks.
- [34:38]
Brian Windhorst
I think that comes down to what's Jayson Tatum look like when we get to February 1st. Where are they at in the standings? You know, they kept this momentum going. I think if anything, what it does is, is it pushes the decision off, which is a victory for their organization and their roster. That. That, you know, that they, you know, that they've performed well enough that they can push that off.
- [35:00]
Wendy Loyd
And I think it's worth pointing out that while Tyrese Halliburton has been ruled out for the season and Damian Lillard has been ruled out for the season, I'm not saying Jason Tatum is definitely playing, but Jason Tatum has definitely not been ruled out. And every time Brad Stevens or anybody has talked about it, they've said everything. But Jason Tatum is not playing. So the action there is pretty clear. They're leaving the door open for him to play well.
- [35:25]
Brian Windhorst
He is. And he is determined to play.
- [35:28]
Wendy Loyd
Yes, that is obvious.
- [35:29]
Brian Windhorst
Whether he's allowed to play is a different question.
- [35:31]
Wendy Loyd
That is obvious. And that, I think that discussion becomes a more complicated one the better. The Celtics are, like, I would probably say it's just better off for them to just wait till next fall anyway. Give them the 18 months, let him heal up, let this team make as much of a run as it can and come back. I am not, however, having to sit down across of Jason Tatum and tell him that. And I'm not in with the doctors. And I don't know what the doctor, you know, Martin o', Malley, I know him. He's been the Nets, one of the Nets doctors for a long time. He's the, you know, preeminent orthopedic surgeon, one of them in the country.
- [36:02]
Brian Windhorst
He did Jason Tatum Achilles feet and ankles, right?
- [36:05]
Wendy Loyd
So he's done. He's done. He did Jason Tatum's Achilles, like maybe he says in March hey, this guy has had an incredible recovery. He's 100% ready to go. Let him play. I don't know. But all of those discussions, to your point, Brian, are a lot more interesting if you're third in the east than if you're 13th in the East. If you're 13th in the east, that conversation is null and void. You're just waiting.
- [36:28]
Brian Windhorst
I would say if we were ranking the most intriguing teams for this season, like, hey, let's, you know, who are you? Who are you, like, watching closely for happens this season? I think the Celtics would be at or near the top for me.
- [36:41]
Ban McMahon
Well, and the team on top of these is right there, too, the Detroit Pistons. Because if the Pistons want to be aggressive before the deadline, they have the ammunition, they have the flexibility. They just came through Dallas. I can tell you they're not looking at it as we have to be aggressive before the deadline. They're not going into the deadline with an aggressive mindset. They're going into it with an opportunistic mindset. And they. I think it's probably more likely that they use the flexibility to collect another asset or two. I think they're more in the Sam Presti of a couple years ago mindset.
- [37:18]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, they're finishing their breakfast sort of.
- [37:21]
Ban McMahon
Thing, and they don't want to. They don't want to block the development of these young guys that have put them in the spot.
- [37:25]
Brian Windhorst
I understand. But again, this is a February 1st situation. We can say whatever you want to say. When you sit down with your organization, your owner and your scouts and your personnel people, and you look at things and you go, okay, on February 1st, do we have a chance to win this thing? And even if it's just winning the Eastern Conference, you know, and like, that's, that's where the, that's where this get the rubber meets the road is. You, you, you know, you know, forget about the actual trade that they might make for this team. And the Celtics fall into this bucket, too. The most important evaluation they can make is their own team's chances. And what goes into that.
- [38:05]
Wendy Loyd
And the other thing with Detroit, too, that makes them so interesting in this discussion is it's been 20 years since they've added success. Right? Yes, they made the playoffs last year, but they lost in the first round. They haven't won a playoff series since 2008. If they're sitting in first place in the Eastern Conference on February 1st, you're right, McMahon. You can, you can certainly make the argument that they should be the Thunder and they should finish their breakfast and maybe accumulate some extra assets, right? But this is not the Thunder in that they don't have a guy running the team who's been running it for 20 years, who is completely secure in his position and basically can decide what the course of the franchise is going to be, right? And everybody's going to be on the same page. This is a Detroit team where the Pistons are desperate to have like their fan base and like everybody's like, hey, we got a chance to win the east. And I'm not saying they're going to go out and trade all their draft picks either, but you could do some sort of an in between and make a move to get better without damning the torpedoes and trading everything. And that's where if they're sitting in first place in the Eastern Conference and it's February 1st and you're looking around and even let's, let's back up even further. Let's say Cavs corner is still like in the play in then and you're like thinking about like, if you're in first place, you got to think about a scenario. Or like let's say the Cavs get healthy in March and are in the play in and the Cavs wind up in the eight seed and you're playing the Cavs in the first round. You got to do like, Cav, Celtics, Knicks to get out of the conference. Right? Like, are they really going to sit there and say, yeah, we'll just let the young guys play and we'll see how this goes and we won't add anything.
- [39:42]
Ban McMahon
That.
- [39:43]
Wendy Loyd
That's a hard, that's a hard discussion.
- [39:45]
Brian Windhorst
To have when we talking about your.
- [39:46]
Wendy Loyd
First real chance to make a big run.
- [39:49]
Brian Windhorst
Let me say three part of the.
- [39:51]
Ban McMahon
Consideration where they do not want to do anything that will disrupt that young core that they feel like can have a long Runway ahead of it for sure.
- [39:59]
Brian Windhorst
Let me say three things. One, I always love when you say Dan the Torpedoes because it's a Tom Petty reference if nothing else. Two, I'm very happy to announce that I have plans to go to Detroit in the near future. It's not been announced yet, but we have something. ESPN's planning something.
- [40:23]
Ban McMahon
Okay. I want a pregame media buffet review. Go on.
- [40:27]
Brian Windhorst
Three, I can review a buffet more.
- [40:30]
Ban McMahon
Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [40:33]
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- [41:36]
Brian Windhorst
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- [41:39]
Ban McMahon
Finish your fantasy lineup? No, but I'm joining this paid group chat with insider info. Dude, seriously, forward it to me. Security alert from McAfee. That group's as legit as that knockoff jersey you're wearing.
- [41:53]
Wendy Loyd
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Brian Windhorst
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Wendy Loyd
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- [42:09]
Brian Windhorst
3 so the pelicans do play tonight in Cleveland. The Cavs finally got a win beat the Hornets on Monday. So this is potential jinx zone. But even if the Pelicans on the second night of a back to back stub their toe and the Cavs stay hot from three point range. New Orleans finally some good news to talk about here. They won on Monday for their fifth consecutive win. James Borrego has been making some changes there since he became the interim head coach. One of the interesting things Zion goes down with the hamstring issue and it was like oh my God, here we I mean they were like 3 and 15 when that happened. You're like oh my God, he's out again. Well, he ended up recovering from a relatively short order because it was indefinite. Then when he since he's come back, he's come off the bench and in addition to Derek Queen having continued success putting up big time stat lines, points and rebounds based and assists, Zion has had an unexpected terrific stretch of games. Now the one of the wins is Portland, one of them's at Chicago. Indianapolis and Dallas are the last two. This is not murderer's row.
- [43:38]
Ban McMahon
They came back from 25 down and beat the Rockets as well in over three and 22.
- [43:44]
Wendy Loyd
I'm not going to be parsing out their wins. They've won five games in a row. They're one of the hottest teams in the league. It's a crazy tournament.
- [43:50]
Brian Windhorst
Right?
- [43:51]
Ban McMahon
Here's a we can say Pelicans, they've got a couple of rookies who are, who are very productive for rookies and look like guys that can be part of their core moving forward. And Jeremiah Fears and Derrick Queen, the value, the trade for Queen was a bad process, but they got a good player in it. I think the Pelicans hope is that they're giving up the Bucks, picking that deal and not their own because that means they've continued to win a little bit here and then, you know, they've got like Trey Murphy iii, Herb Jones, they've got some good vets on this team. Zion, the sixth man is an interesting thing and I'm curious to see if this is something that has staying power, if this is something Zion's going to be satisfied with because it's a way to get him to impact games, do what he does well, to be just, you know, a one of the most dynamic offensive forces in the league while also managing his minutes. And his performance against the Mavericks was kind of a perfect thing. You know, he played, what was it, 26 minutes in that game, 25 minutes in that game. But he closed and he dominated down the stretch. He dominated the fourth quarter of that game as a guy who was getting to the line, who's putting the ball in the hole and who was creating for his teammates.
- [45:14]
Brian Windhorst
I will say this so we talk about the Achilles guys. There was the Achilles trio, I'm sad to say, of Tatum, Lillard and Halliburton, who had all happened during the playoffs. But there was also another prominent player towards Achilles last year that was Dejounte Murray. And Dejounte Murray is soon to return. I believe in they're targeting January. Now I do not know what he will be able to give them, nor do I know what there is left to do in this season. But if you are looking for nothing more than to get momentum proof of concept of this roster and if shut people up about that trade and get ahead of the Bucs so it's that the Bucks pick that gets taken, that gets swapped out, that is an interesting development. If this indeed has staying power, that Dejounte Murray will be back soon as well.
- [46:08]
Ban McMahon
You know, the other thing though, it kind of becomes pretty crowded because Jeremiah Fears is I believe a guy who's, you know, again going to be part of that core for a long time to come and is done a lot of good things as a rookie. Jordan Pool's been coming off the bench and doing Jordan Poole type of things which every once in a while there's a big game but you know, not real efficient. But are you going like whose minutes is Murray getting? Is he. Is he. And. And the thing that we found out in Atlanta, the idea of playing Murray alongside another point guard. Nah, that. That didn't really work in Atlanta. You know, I'm not saying Dejounte Murray coming back is a bad thing for the Pelicans, but I don't know that it's a clean fit either.
- [46:56]
Brian Windhorst
Well, let me tell you something. If the Pelicans are in a situation this year where they've got too much talent, they're trying to figure out how to play them, that would be a big step forward. So we'll see how they perform against the Cavs. I don't know if you guys are aware, but Thursday is Christmas. The NBA has a couple of games on the slate. Which one are you looking forward to most? I35 McMahon.
- [47:17]
Ban McMahon
The one that's going to fly just right over my head. I think the spurs and the Thunder might even share a plane because their plane as we record is getting ready to play on. Already know what today is. Tuesday night.
- [47:30]
Wendy Loyd
Tuesday night.
- [47:31]
Ban McMahon
And then a little rematch on Christmas.
- [47:34]
Brian Windhorst
So yeah, I don't know. I haven't seen or the Thunder. It's the second night of a back to back. Are the Thunder playing everybody in this game this Tuesday night? A.J.
- [47:42]
Ban McMahon
Mitchell'S in concussion protocol.
- [47:44]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [47:45]
Ban McMahon
But the both seven footers are playing.
- [47:47]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [47:48]
Ban McMahon
You know, Isaiah Hartenstein sat out, you know what pretty clear was a planned night to rest when they beat the Grizzlies. Chet Holmgren was sick. Met the team at the plane. They kind of quarantined him in the back with the staff, but that's appropriate.
- [48:06]
Brian Windhorst
Get back there. Who cares if they get sick.
- [48:09]
Ban McMahon
Chet's a competitor though. You know, he. He might not talk to Wimby, but he, he'll sign up to play against him. Especially when Wemby just got the best of. I'm not going to say that matchup because they don't necessarily match up against each other, but the best of the the Spurs Thunder. And so, you know, whatever happens Tuesday night, it's a fascinating matchup either you know, it's 1:1 this year and kind of a temporary rubber match type of deal or the Thunder might really have some motivation.
- [48:36]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, it's an unexpected three game series because they played in the semifinals of the Cup. Spurs had the big win to break the winning streak. And then you got these two games with a day off in between. Like, you know, no reason why there shouldn't be bad blood more festered there.
- [48:52]
Ban McMahon
Well, and the league needs Gladbug more festered.
- [48:55]
Wendy Loyd
What was that?
- [48:56]
Brian Windhorst
I wanted to see some bad blood.
- [48:58]
Ban McMahon
Yeah.
- [48:58]
Brian Windhorst
Bubbling, boiling.
- [49:00]
Ban McMahon
The league needs rivals to emerge for the Thunder and the spurs are as well positioned as anybody with obviously the talent of Victor, plus the young core around him, the proximity. There is some history between the franchise. Mike Wright and I wrote about this in a deal that ran Tuesday morning. And so hopefully this is another log on the fire of what will burn into a rivalry.
- [49:29]
Brian Windhorst
Lovely bond temps.
- [49:31]
Wendy Loyd
Yeah, that's obviously the highlight game of the day for many reasons. I was at the last one. Vegas excited to see what that one will look like on Christmas. If I have to pick a different one, I'll pick Rockets. Lakers. Obviously the Lakers have had a very interesting start to the season. You know, as we've talked about many times, the record sort of outstrips what their resume would say on paper. It also may be, you know, could be the last time we see LeBron James playing on Christmas. Certainly one of the last times to see LeBron James on Christmas playing against Kevin Durant. I've personally been at Some Kevin Durant, LeBron James Christmas Day games. So it'll be interesting to see how that one goes. And let's see if Luka Doncic plays Austin Reeves. You know, again we're doing this Tuesday afternoon. Austin Reeves is available to play Tuesday night against Phoenix. That'll be an interesting game after the last time these two teams played last week.
- [50:18]
Brian Windhorst
Is Dylan Brooks available? Because that's what I care about.
- [50:20]
Wendy Loyd
Dylan Brooks will be available. LeBron has started to look better. So yeah, just, you know, two good teams in the west, both top six teams, excited to see how it looks.
- [50:29]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, and frankly the Rockets. The Rockets have had sort of an awkward, an awkward year where they have some really nice wins and some really like why'd you lose that game? I mean, if you're going to be one of these, if you're going to be a top four team, you can't lose some of these games.
- [50:43]
Ban McMahon
They're losing two terrible losses recently. You know, we mentioned the 25 point lead that they blew in New Orleans and then they blew. What was it? It was a two possession lead in the final minute of regulation in Sacramento.
- [50:56]
Wendy Loyd
And we didn't talk about this. We have to talk about this game for a second. The Rockets have the ball up five with two minutes and three seconds to go in Sacramento. The Rockets had the ball for 115 of the final 123 seconds of regulation. So to say the other side of that, Sacramento down five with 203 to go, had the ball for eight seconds the rest of the game. And the game went to overtime.
- [51:21]
Ban McMahon
It's almost impossible with Russell Westbrook of all people hitting the three to send it to overtime. And then look, it was a game where there are times where you look at the Rockets and their struggles. Closing game, you say, man, Fred Van Vliet sure would be nice to have running the show out there. That was one of those for the Rockets. So, you know, I like the. The Rockets Lakers matchup. Looking forward to it. We'll see if Luca plays on the one year anniversary of his final appearance in a Mavericks uniform.
- [51:51]
Wendy Loyd
So crazy.
- [51:53]
Ban McMahon
I would say, I would say rushing back to play on Christmas last year didn't. Didn't necessarily work out the way that he hoped.
- [52:02]
Brian Windhorst
So I have a sad story to tell you guys.
- [52:05]
Ban McMahon
Oh, no. Baham Bug.
- [52:08]
Brian Windhorst
My workaround to full league pass is to my. Maybe I shouldn't have been so brazen talking about it. My workaround has caught me and I wasn't in the location for 30 days. And Amazon said, why haven't you been to this location 30 days? And so I had to declare my home as Omaha. And so womp, womp, womp. The Nuggets have been stripped away. I should just ask for the jailbreak code from the league. So on Christmas Saturday, on the Christmas evening, Nuggets play the Wolves national television game. Nuggets Wolves. This is a game that has been stripped away from me. I thought I had it for about six glorious weeks.
- [52:57]
Wendy Loyd
What are you talking about? It's on national television.
- [53:00]
Brian Windhorst
I'm saying, I'm saying I get it.
- [53:02]
Wendy Loyd
Oh, you get it back.
- [53:03]
Brian Windhorst
I get it. I get it back. I'm excited. It's a lineup too.
- [53:07]
Wendy Loyd
I can't watch the game.
- [53:08]
Brian Windhorst
No, I can watch the game. I can watch the game.
- [53:11]
Ban McMahon
It's like a Hershey kiss in your stocking.
- [53:13]
Brian Windhorst
It's a trick at the very bottom. At the end of the day, the Wolves are coming off that really good win over the Thunder. Pretty much every night something crazy happens with the Warriors. We're not even touching them.
- [53:31]
Wendy Loyd
I don't doubt that.
- [53:33]
Brian Windhorst
And pretty much a lot of nights Something interesting is going on with the Wolves these days as well. But obviously these teams go back two years. This is a really good Western Conference matchup. They had the seven game series two years ago. I'm going to watch Jokic on Christmas, long story short. So looking forward to that and where I'm at. Cavs, Knicks will be very early. I might miss that one. Bottemps. I might not be available that early in the day.
- [54:04]
Ban McMahon
Where are you?
- [54:04]
Wendy Loyd
Cav's corner on Christmas. We know that.
- [54:07]
Ban McMahon
Where are you right now?
- [54:08]
Brian Windhorst
I'm not on the continental 48 states worldwide window.
- [54:13]
Wendy Loyd
Going from Europe to parts unknown, circumnavigating the globe in two weeks.
- [54:18]
Brian Windhorst
That's how I roll.
- [54:20]
Ban McMahon
It's a good life. Sunny, so it must not be Alaska.
- [54:23]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Have a great Christmas. Enjoy it. I hope everybody enjoys it. I have no idea what the next 12 or 24 hours will bring in the latest chapter of the Steve Kerr Draymond Green saga. He left the bench of his own volition, getting into it with Steve Kerr during a timeout on Monday evening. A Warriors blowout victory that, you know, there they were under 500 coming into the game. They have a blowout win and then the entire post game is dominated by another Steve Kerr Draymond Green thing that's, you know, going on year and year and year.
- [55:00]
Wendy Loyd
And blowout went over a good team by the way, like beating Orlando.
- [55:03]
Brian Windhorst
Unexpected, unexpected blowout win regardless of the of the magic injuries 100%. So I don't even know what to say. Like Draymond is not having a great year by his standards. But Steve Kerr has pretty vociferously repeated how important he is to them. He did it again. He said two things after the game I found interesting bond temps because you're Mr. Stock Report, you and Slater. One, that even if Draymond wanted to come back in and play, he was not going to play. He basically said you were not going to play again after that act. And two, he said that we need him, which is what he's been saying for years. But he reaffirmed that.
- [55:45]
Wendy Loyd
Well, here's two things. One, I was watching NBA Today earlier and I literally gasped when I saw this stat, which is that Draymond Green has 72 made field goals this season, 75 turnovers and 80 personal fouls, and is the only player who's played at least 250 minutes who has more fouls and turnovers than points. I know he's not necessarily a scorer. However, do we have used this phrase with Jimmy Butler in the Past and other players. Is the Juice worth the squeeze anymore? The Juice has been worth the squeeze arguably for a long time. With Draymond Green in Golden State. There have been times I certainly would have moved on from him over the past couple of years. I would not have kept him around after the Jordan pool thing personally. But on the record about that. But as you said, the warriors have stuck by him over and over again. I think it's starting to get to an interesting place because Draymond Green has just not been very good this season. You know, Steve Kerr says we need Draymond Green. You have to say that publicly because you can't say we don't need him otherwise then things are over. But as the warriors look ahead to either the next six weeks or the next six months and they try to make one final push around Steph Curry, like let's say they don't make any trades soon on the trade deadline and Draymond Green's on a $25 million ish expiring contract this summer and you could put him and John to the Kaminga V still on the team this summer and some other salaries together to go get a star. Is that not a way to for the warriors to get better? I would argue it is. So it it. I just think we're getting a lot closer to is it time to move on from Draymond Green in some form or fashion than the warriors would like it to be. And incidents like this coming up on top of him not playing well this year are only going to speed up that discussion, in my opinion.
- [57:30]
Ban McMahon
They made the decision a long time ago that the production is worth all the pain in the ass stuff. Now you can argue that that ratio has been thrown out of whack, but I will also say I don't know that the warriors, while chasing a very unlikely fifth ring, need to be having another messy divorce with the franchise icon. That's all I'm going to say.
- [57:58]
Wendy Loyd
I would just say that the franchise icon is very capable of making it messy himself and that might precipitate it. That's more the point. You know, it's. It's not like it would be, oh, hey, this guy's a model citizen. We're just going to have him ride it out here a la Yudanus Haslam. Like, Draymond is not. I mean, this is a prime example. Like it's the third quarter of the game, he just gets up and stomps off the bench. Like, it's just we talk about anybody else, we'd be like, what is going on? That's crazy behavior. And instead, with the warriors, like, well, yeah, Draymond's had yet another thing. It's like, you know, and then you.
- [58:36]
Ban McMahon
Just look up and say, over the course of his career, it's been worth it because you're looking up at four Bay.
- [58:42]
Wendy Loyd
That's the calculus the warriors have made. It's just different when he's not a very good player, which at this point, he's arguably not a very good player. So, you know, there's a lot of guys better than Draymond Green who didn't finish their career with their teams. That's all I would say.
- [58:55]
Brian Windhorst
I think both of you are making very compelling points, and therefore, I would say it's something on the horizon that bears keeping an eye on. And so that's what I advise doing.
- [59:07]
Wendy Loyd
Yep.
- [59:08]
Brian Windhorst
All right. Thank you so much for watching the Hoop Collective throughout the entire year, but especially here at the end. Thank you to Jackson and Devon for putting this together. Thank you, McMahon and Bontemps, and enjoy your holidays. And we'll be talking to you after what is hopefully a wonderful NBA Christmas.
- [59:28]
Ban McMahon
Adios, amigos. Feliz Navidad.
- [59:40]
Wendy Loyd
Hi there. Surprise.
- [59:42]
Ban McMahon
30 for 30 presents.
- [59:44]
Wendy Loyd
Booyah. Can I get a witness with the congregation?
- [59:48]
Ban McMahon
You can't stop. Authenticity.
- [59:50]
Wendy Loyd
Booyah. Stuart was exactly like you saw him on camera. Off camera, he dialed it up 10%. Can you imagine the impact of young black boys and girls looking at that.
- [60:00]
Ban McMahon
Going, I feel seen.
- [60:02]
Wendy Loyd
He changed the culture.
- [60:03]
Ban McMahon
He changed sports stream. Booyah.
- [60:05]
Wendy Loyd
Presented by Modelo right now on the ESPN app.