← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
NBA’s International Future & Western Conference Tiers
01:17:20
Hoop Collective: NBA’s International Future & Western Conference Tiers + James Jones Joins The Show
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- [00:04]
A
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets.
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B
Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
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A
Learn more@WhatsApp.com hello and welcome to the who Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday evening. Joining us from New York City before he heads off to Philadelphia on Friday for what apparently could be Joel Embiid's preseason debut, which is pretty good, is Tim Bontemps.
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B
Hello, everybody. Yeah, hopefully we'll see the big fella and Vijay Edgecomb and Quentin Grimes and all the non Paul George Sixers playing on Friday. What a thing that would be.
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A
Yet you're not, I mean, how sure are you he's going to play? Like it could be.
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B
I, I long ago stopped putting anything on anything in Philadelphia, but hopefully, hopefully they all play tomorrow.
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A
There's a bead thing where he does warm up and then he looks down and gives them the nod like, yes, I shall play. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, just back from Las Vegas, where on Wednesday night he attended the shell of the Los Angeles Lakers playing against the Dallas Mavericks. Hope you came up ahead is Ban McMahon.
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C
Howdy, partners. Came up. Even did not bet a single nickel. I did violate my normal policy. I took a 5:15am flight this morning. You want the band sleep update?
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A
Usually you're not done throwing up by.
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C
5:00Am I'm, I've matured. I'm acting my age. The van sleep Update got like 3 hours in the hotel, a couple hours on the plane. Took a little nap when I got home. So you know how many hours of sleep I got?
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A
No. Six.
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C
Seven.
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B
Six.
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C
Seven.
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A
You can't say the words six and seven together around my son without, by.
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C
The way, that goes any. Anybody under the age of like 23 across the country right now. Yeah, yeah.
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A
We live and we learn. All right, so later on in the podcast we will have James Jo, executive vice president of the NBA and the NBA operations will be joining us. So stick around for that. We also have the West Tears. God.
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C
Oh, yeah, baby.
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A
Last freaking tears podcast for a long time.
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C
But first, what are the Tears of the Tears podcast?
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A
Do you think that's a good one? Now that's, that's a podcast I would participate in. Had a story published on Thursday. One story that I'VE been working on for a couple of weeks. That was the genesis of my trip to the Middle East a couple of weeks ago about just some stuff that's happening in the NBA right now with Middle east investment. And look, I want to be clear, you know, the NBA is about to start the season. There is a lot of excitement, A lot of teams feel like they have a shot at winning their, at least their conferences. I don't know how many teams have a legitimate shot winning the whole thing, but certainly a bunch of teams feel like they could win their conference and that's what the focus is going to be. But the league is very much thinking about how to expand its footprint in global basketball. And there's other leagues out there that are looking to rise up and other leagues that are playing defense against encroaching and rising leagues. And a big part of that is coming out the Middle east, especially Abu Dhabi, which is heavily invested in. In basketball. While I was over there, pretty much the entire league office was there. And so while I was watching the Knicks and the Sixers play, Adam Silver, Mark Tatum, a whole bunch of his of their lieutenants, including James Jones, by the way, were all there to have meetings with the folks in Abu Dhabi where they have billions of dollars that they want to invest in global sport. And the Qataris are also interested investing in global sport. And Saudi Arabia is also investing, interested in investing in global sport, including basketball. And in the case of Abu Dhabi, the NBA has chosen, really chosen a Middle east partner. And that's Mohammed Khalifa Al Mubarak, who is the head of the Department of Culture and Tourism in Abu Dhabi. And some call him His Excellency.
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C
What do you call him?
- [04:42]
A
I call him the Chairman basis. Yeah, well, he does. He. He prefers.
- [04:48]
B
That is for. That is first name basis.
- [04:50]
A
Yeah. No, he wants me to heal. I call him Muhammad when I see him, but in talking about him to other people, I call him the chairman. Abu Dhabi is really a growth point in the world right now. And like with other countries in the Middle east, they have some. Some things on their record that are a little bit unsavory, a little bit disappointing in some cases. And they have a lot on their plate that they're trying to change their perception. And one of the ways they're doing it is with sport. And they have partnerships with all kinds of American companies. The NBA is just one of them. But they have an interesting affiliation with the Knicks and they have the Knicks jersey sponsorship. Of course, you look at the Knicks, you see on their jersey, it Says experience Abu Dhabi. And they are building a sphere. They are partnering with Jim Dolan, the owner of the Knicks to build a, a second sphere in Abu Dhabi right near the arena. And I think you will only continue to hear about Abu Dhabi's affiliation with the league, including in NBA Europe, which is getting closer and closer to fruition where I believe that Abu Dhabi will end up owning a team. I suspect it's going to be the team that the NBA is planning on putting in Manchester United Kingdom where Abu Dhabi owns Man City Football.
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B
Funny coincidence.
- [06:06]
A
Yes. And anyway, the story, you know, the truth is, is that, and I've said this before, is that in the world of basketball there are underserved fans. Those fans are primarily in Asia, in big population centers in Asia. People in China, people in the Philippines, people in India, people in other Southeast Asian countries, a Singapore, they would love nothing more than to have more high level basketball for them to consume in their time zone. In their cities and in the Middle east there is underserved investment capital. There is a bunch of money there that wants to be in sports and particularly basketball. And so the NBA believes that there are underserved fans and business in Europe too. I'm not as convinced about that. But a big part of what's happening in global basketball right now is to try to capture those underserved fans and try to give that interested capital a place to go.
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C
Well, and as you pointed out, a tiny little sliver relatively of that capital indirectly went to the Lakers. So that's one way that you're seeing the relationship with that part of the world like that. That to me is the one tangible way so far that we've seen that relationship impact a fan base fan right here.
- [07:28]
B
So I, you know, I wouldn't put it that way.
- [07:31]
C
I wouldn't. My question is this. The NBA is clearly going to follow the money to Abu Dhabi has started, will continue to do that. How, if at all, do you see that impacting the fan over here?
- [07:45]
B
Well, very simply when we talked about my Defining People piece a couple weeks ago and we talked about Adam Silver in it and you asked the question of why should anybody care about NBA Europe who lives here, right? Who cares about the NBA?
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C
Right?
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B
What did Brian just say? The entire league office was in Abu Dhabi.
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C
Why?
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B
Because that is where the nexus of all the stuff the NBA is working on is from an international financial standpoint. And that is all going to come back to the NBA. Like it's not a coincidence that NBA Europe is going to have a team in Manchester Where Abu Dhabi is, that's going to be owned by Abu Dhabi. And it's not a coincidence that there's going to be a team in Paris where PSG is, which is owned by the Qataris. And this is in large part clearly a way to further integrate this giant pile of money in the Middle east into the NBA ecosystem. And that's not going to stop with NBA Europe. It's going to continue on. Brian wrote in his story all the various ways that it's going to. And it's going to keep coming this way because as we look at how expensive these franchises are, there is a by the day smaller and smaller group of people who can afford to buy these teams. So you can draw a quick through line from this to where this is ultimately going to get to, which is where it began when the league allowed for a 5% investment by sovereign wealth funds and teams. When you allow a 5% investment, that means you're eventually going to allow a 15%.
- [09:19]
A
I think it is actually 15 or 20% now, might be more now.
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B
But the point is it's. That's. It's going to continue in that direction just like it did in the Premier League, just like it has all all over the place.
- [09:29]
C
I get why it's important for the NBA. I get why it's a priority for the NBA. It's about maximizing revenue. What I'm asking is how does it impact your average fan?
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A
Is this, well, well, right now?
- [09:41]
B
Well, when, when a sovereign wealth fund buys an NBA team, it's going to impact the fans of that team. That's. That's what I'm. That's what I'm. What's that?
- [09:50]
C
Positively or negatively?
- [09:52]
B
I don't think that will be a negative thing. If you look at the Premier League now, again, it's a different league. There's no salary cap. Right. If you look at the Premier League, Manchester City was a completely irrelevant team. They were the Brooklyn Nets, essentially compared to Manchester City. Who was the Knicks or Manchester United? It was the Knicks. Right. Manchester City now has a global collection of superstars. They have Pep Guardiola, the one of the most famous managers of all time, running their team. I believe they finally won the Champions League a couple years ago. They've won a bunch of Premier League titles. They've become a global superpower in a decade. Like, I'm not saying it's going to exactly translate like that with the NBA because there's salary caps and many other rules that are in place. But if you look at, we've talked about the Lakers, right. The Lakers went from having ownership that didn't have a ton of money to now ownership that has a ton of money that in theory will help the franchise, just like the Clippers, just like the Warriors. It, it probably won't be a negative thing.
- [10:50]
A
Let me just happen. What's up. What happened with the Lakers? The Lakers, as you know, were purchased for the. The valuation of $10 billion. They were actually going to be purchased for about $6 billion. The way it's all going to work out, people, because what the percentage that's being purchased. But there's going to be. When the buses sell, they're going to, they're going to keep some of the team. And the group that's buying control of the Lakers already owns about 27%. So the way we standardize it, when we talk about teams, we, we say what the, what it would be if you bought the whole hundred percent, but almost never is the whole a hundred percent bought. So the valuation is 10 billion, but they're going to spend about six, six and a half billion, actual currency. Three months before Mark Walter, who is buying his and his group bought or agreed to by the Lakers, they got a $10 billion investment from Abu Dhabi. His holding company got a $10 billion investment from abu Dhabi. So it's not directly being purchased. And you know, they got, I'm sure they raised other money.
- [11:47]
B
I think the Guggenheim guys have all sorts of money.
- [11:50]
A
Yeah, I think they actually do a lot of things. I think they actually announced a $15 billion raise, but 10 billion of it came from Abu Dhabi and, and then three months later decided to spend 6 billion of that. You know, is it Abu Dhabi's money or did it pass through? I don't know. But the key is the Abu Dhabi investment enabled them.
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B
They're involved.
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A
They have the capital.
- [12:11]
B
So they're involved in Team usa. They're involved with that. They're inextricably tied to the league now in a lot of ways. That's not going to change anytime soon. And all the. Again, to your point, big man, why does this matter to fans? That's why it matters to fans. It's not about NBA Europe.
- [12:29]
A
Last year, before the Olympic team played in Paris, they flew to Abu Dhabi from Vegas. And it was such a long flight that the jumbo jet that they chartered couldn't even make it. And they had to land in the middle of the night in Iceland. So LeBron James and Steph Curry and Kevin Durant and all those guys were walking around Reykjavik, Iceland, in the middle of the night getting fuel so that they could make it all the way to Abu Dhabi. They flew eight hours past Paris to get there. Why did they do that? Why did they go all the way out there to Abu Dhabi?
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C
Giant.
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B
The giant pile of money.
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A
And not just the money that they got for that, for those games, but.
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B
No, I mean the entire giant pile of money. Not a pile of money.
- [13:19]
A
And all of them. And because, you know, it's the same reason why, as I wrote in my story, that Jim Dolan and Adam Silver, two guys who have been basically in a cold war for the last couple of years. You know, Dolan, the Knicks sued the Raptors. They actually just pulled the lawsuit back, but the Knicks sued the Raptors in a breach of protocol. Jim Dolan announced he was resigning from committees.
- [13:43]
B
He's constantly telling the league that he wants to see their books because he believes they're spending too much money. It's a very cantankerous relationship. And I was watching, I was watching the game. You saw the two of them standing there being chummy and chatting that up. And, you know, it. Obviously there's all sorts of investments with the Knicks there, as Brian mentioned earlier. And, you know, we haven't directly said it, but Brian's story was awesome. And if you're interested in where the league is headed on a lot of different fronts, this story illuminates a lot of it.
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A
Yeah. So. So the Team USA had incredible care for their men's, women's, men's and women's team. They're five on five team and their three on three team. And they, if you remember the women's team, they played their first exhibition game against the WNBA All Stars in Phoenix. And then they got on their own jumbo jet. You know, you talk about, you know, the WNBA teams have long wanted charters. Well, I know they have charters now, but they chartered a jumbo jet to fly them from Phoenix all the way to London. They met the men's team in London and they rented out an entire luxury hotel for everybody and the families. The whole hotel was. Was booked up. There were NBA general managers and stuff that wanted to stay at this hotel to be near their players, and they couldn't because Team USA booked the whole hotel. Then in Paris, they had another entire hotel. They were able to bring all the families together, and they were able to do that because in large part, they went to Abu Dhabi to raise the money for it.
- [15:08]
B
Right? So again, they got a gigantic pile of money.
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A
Right? And so the next World cup is in Qatar in 2027. I would not be surprised if Team USA visits nearby Abu Dhabi again.
- [15:21]
B
I suspect their pull training camp probably not Abu Dhabi by then.
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C
And you know, they for a while now have been invested in that relationship with China. It got very complicated. They're renewing that relationship. Patrick Dumont just announced that the Mavericks and Rockets are actually going over there next year, which is up.
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A
We're going to. You're going to love going to Macau.
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C
Well, I've been what I was getting at. I have been to Shanghai and Shenzhen. You know, when.
- [15:47]
A
Shenzhen.
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C
That place too. I went there when the Mavericks played the Sixers. It was Lucas rookie year. And when I got there, it was immediately obvious to me why every guy who's got a signature shoe deal does a Chinese tour sometimes every single summer. Like, the sneaker culture there was strong in terms of like just walking the streets. Like all the shoes that people were wearing. These. There was a. This huge mall right by the hotel that like the. Each brand, like 15, 20 different brands had their own stores that were massive. And like the fan culture there, like, dude, it was packed for layup lines and people were going crazy for dunks and layup lines. Do you. Is there that kind of fandom?
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A
No.
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C
Okay.
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A
There's not that many people there, but they believe there will be someday. And whether or not I don't know. And you know, things got. Got contentious with China for political and other reasons. I can't predict what'll happen in the Middle east. There. There could be. You know, it's a very fragile area and we probably talked about for too long, but it's.
- [16:50]
B
It's a huge part of where the NBA is headed.
- [16:53]
A
The future of global basketball runs through the Middle east and for the NBA runs through Abu Dhabi, which I just want to be clear. Abu Dhabi is in the same country as Dubai, but they're different states. It's. Even though it's a much smaller. It's a much smaller territory. It's about an hour and a half by car between the two of them. It's same country, different states. Abu Dhabi is the controlling region. It is not Saudi Arabia. It is not Qatar. They are very different places. There are similar values in those situations, but people seem to think everything over there is Saudi Arabia. And by the way, the Saudis are in the middle of a bit of a renaissance themselves, but it's different. And, you know, I think it's a little bit intimidating because it's very foreign to Americans. You know, they think that all the Middle east is the same. It's not the same. You know, it's in many ways very different. And I've spent a lot of time with Muhammad Al Mubarak. I find him to be a visionary. Can I vouch for everything he's ever done in his life? I cannot. Can I. Can I vouch for everything that he and his family and his allies might do? I cannot. But there is a reason why the NBA has selected Al Mubarak and Abu Dhabi to be partners with. And I am extremely impressed with what he has done in that country, what his vision is for the future of their partnership with the NBA. And he wants it to last decades. He told me that he wants the partnership that they're forging with the NBA to outlive him. And he's probably in his early 40s. He went to school, by the way, he went to school in Boston. He's a huge Laker fan. And now he's a Dodger fan. Because how's he going to be a.
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C
Lakers fan going to school in Boston?
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A
I know, it's crazy.
- [18:39]
C
Joe Mazzola probably was going to try to schedule a pickup game against him now.
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A
By the way, he would love to play pickup with Joe Missoula.
- [18:45]
C
Joe Missoula would crush him 57 to 4 or so.
- [18:48]
B
Yeah, here's the all you got it. For people who haven't read Brian's story yet, and I would again encourage them to. The summation of this entire thing is the last line of a quote from Adam Silver. Adam Silver, colon quote, they are dream investors, end quote. That. That sums up where the NBA is at and where this is all pointed to moving forward. And it's why it matters to fans.
- [19:11]
A
All right, we're going to talk about the 20, 25, 26 NBA season, particularly the Western Conference. Jackson issued an edict before this podcast. We have to be more firm in. In doing our tears and.
- [19:26]
B
Well, yeah, because you guys kept trying to leave teams out in the East JV Conference was just being left with less than all the teams by the end of it.
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C
That's not true. You.
- [19:36]
B
You just. I mean, you did completely leave out the Bulls. At first we had to argue that.
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C
Whether the rappers were lumped in with a Bull goals or not. Yeah, we're always going to be in that playing purgatory tier.
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B
Definitive answers.
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C
Okay, here we go. The super producer requested tier one one team. This Raptors.
- [20:01]
B
This is. We can.
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C
We can move favorites. Heavy favorites. Tier Oklahoma City. Enough said. Yeah, I mean, Loaded returns every contributor from the championship team And a lot of those guys are the vast majority of those guys are still ascending.
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A
I haven't done this research. Maybe I should has there ever in the modern era been a championship team that brought every player back?
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C
Well they didn't bring everyone back. Dylan Jones got traded in a salary dump to make room for their first round pick.
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A
Okay yeah of players of the players who played in the finals and maybe.
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B
He got in I mean the, the, I mean yeah. I mean the 15 I want to say the 1516 warriors were pretty much the same team don't remember for sure.
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C
It's something that I'm sure we can ask old stats Williams and I'm sure he's before we just don't have it handy but like it's literally like 98 point something percent of their scoring from the playoffs and the only Dylan Jones minutes were garbage time now how much they like we'll see how much Nicola Topic ends up playing. You know he was a red shirt rookie last year. Unfortunately he's recovering from surgery to a very sensitive area now after having the ACL recovery last year and then their rookie Thomas Sorber was going to miss this year he's going to redshirt with a with his own torn acl. So I'm not sure how much they are adding to last year's group but it's not like that group had any holes.
- [21:31]
A
All right, so they're alone in Tier 1.
- [21:34]
B
More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [21:39]
C
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy.
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B
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C
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- [22:41]
C
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- [22:47]
D
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C
Chicago Marathon for Special Olympics Illinois to help give more my friends, a place to shine.
- [22:57]
A
Join bank of America in supporting Joseph's cause. Give if you can@b of a.com support Joseph. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America references to charitable organizations is not an endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Tier 2 bond temps how many teams got one team? Wow, here he is again with these. He's always got 11 tiers.
- [23:20]
C
I had four.
- [23:21]
B
I mean I would, I thought a month ago I would have had two teams in the second tier. But I think with Fred Van Vlietz injury, I think Denver should be by themselves. They have the best player on the planet and I think they have demonstrated over time they are the biggest challenger to the Thunder. And I think there's a bunch of other teams that are good that have pretty, pretty massive questions about them in different ways. So I would have them as their own tier and then a bunch of teams in the next group behind them.
- [23:55]
C
McMahon Personally, I had this as the primary challengers tier and I had four teams in it. I did have Denver first. I still have the Rockets. I, you know, they also have a ton of ascending talent led by Amend Thompson. Jabari Smith Jr. Has looked great this preseason too, by the way, and filled the glaring hole in their roster with a Hall of Fame player who's still producing at superstar levels. And Kevin Durant. Golden State 22 and 5 with Jimmy Butler and Steph on the floor together. You know, Steph is still a top single digit player. I don't feel like arguing that single digit number. But it is a single digit number. Proven championship core. And then look, Minnesota's been in the conference finals in back to back years. So I'm including the Timberwolves in there.
- [24:46]
A
Okay, I got.
- [24:47]
B
Jackson says. Jackson says a year ago The Celtics had 93% of their team back after winning the title, just as a FYI.
- [24:54]
A
Yeah, I said everybody.
- [24:56]
B
No, I was just saying Jackson gave a good stat and I was just answering.
- [25:00]
A
Thank you, Jackson. I got three teams in it.
- [25:02]
C
Okay.
- [25:02]
A
Denver, absolutely. Denver, under different circumstances could have won the last three titles and certainly could have won two of the three. I, you know, I've said this before. I don't know what would have happened if they had not botched Game 7 against Minnesota two years ago because they were the one team that Boston all kinds of trouble with. And yeah, they went to game seven last year against Oklahoma City.
- [25:23]
C
Now I will note real quick they might not get out of the first round without Russell Westbrook. For all the crazy stuff that comes.
- [25:31]
A
That'S why I got the Los Angeles Clippers in this.
- [25:34]
C
Interesting.
- [25:35]
A
I considered that I am opening myself up to being. Having egg on my face, but I think the Clippers look spectacular. I thought they looked spectacular down the stretch last year, and I know that they made some changes to their roster and I know that they're older and they're going to have injuries.
- [25:56]
B
Yep.
- [25:57]
A
And look, James Harden is, you know, is actually not even in that great a shape. That's one of the things that the scouts have said is that, you know, Harden has been in better shape at this point, but Kawhi looks fabulous.
- [26:09]
C
Their bench looks fabulous.
- [26:11]
B
They got a ton of good players. They're deep. I mean, I would have them in the third tier just because they're so old and the warriors are so old and have a lot of injury questions. But I think Golden State ceiling is as high as anybody this side of OKC and the Clippers. I'm still not 100% sure about their playoff ceiling, but I think they're going to be an awesome regular season.
- [26:33]
C
I agree with that. Wendy. So you. And you said Denver, you said the Clippers. Who's the third team you got here?
- [26:39]
A
Houston. Houston.
- [26:40]
C
So I think the consensus is Denver and Houston. And then I had Minnesota here. You. I had Minnesota and Golden State. You had the Clippers.
- [26:52]
A
Yeah.
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C
So I think the consensus is there's two teams here. And then I think those three teams that also got votes are in the next year.
- [27:01]
B
Yeah, I would have. I thought those four teams, Houston and those three teams were my tier three. Like, I think they're the six best teams. However you want to slice it, I think those are the top six teams in the West.
- [27:13]
C
Well, and I. So I had the Lakers and Clippers in that. In the potential challengers tier. How much consideration do you guys give the Lakers as far as, you know, if we wanted to say it's just one big group of these two tiers. Do you.
- [27:27]
B
If LeBron. Sorry, I thought I thought you were done.
- [27:29]
D
Yeah.
- [27:31]
C
If we're counting this as just one.
- [27:32]
B
Pack of challengers, I don't think the Lakers should be in that mix. We have no idea what LeBron status is going to be. They don't have. They have hardly any perimeter athleticism. They. I do not like the interior defensive combination of deandre Ayton and Jackson Hayes. I don't. They don't have a ton of shooting around Luka Doncic on this team. Luka's amazing. Obviously looks like he's in great shape. Like, I'm sure, he's going to be good. Austin Reaves is playing for a contract. They also have a ton of guys on this team all playing for money. I've been around teams like that before. The 2019 Celtics immediately come to mind. That team was loaded with talent and they had a lot of guys playing for contracts. And that thing couldn't have gone worse. And it could not. It was not handled well. Not saying it's going to go exactly like that, but I just think the Lakers have way too many questions right now to put him in that tier for me. Now, if LeBron comes back healthy, could they wind up in the top six? Sure, they definitely could. I know Seam said either yesterday or today that LeBron's targeting a mid November return. And like, if he comes back and plays 65 games and looks pretty good or 60 games and Luka plays 75 at an MVP level, like, like, yeah, they could finish in the top six. But I think when you look at the Clippers and the Wolves, who handled them last year in the first round of the playoffs, but more or less the same team and what Golden State ceiling is like, I just think all those teams are pretty clearly ahead of what the Lakers are.
- [28:58]
A
Wendy, personally, yeah, I think Reeves and Doncic can do a lot of damage. And the Lakers are much healthier than they were a year ago with, which is. I know it's a loaded statement because LeBron is out, but Rui Hachimura was messed up last year. Gabe Vincent was messed up last year. Jared Vanderbilt was messed up last year. Those guys are all healthy.
- [29:18]
C
Luca was an out of shape shell of himself.
- [29:20]
A
Who?
- [29:21]
C
Luca was an out of shape shell of himself.
- [29:23]
A
Well, he wasn't there yet. He wasn't there at the start of the season.
- [29:25]
C
Talking about the end of the season.
- [29:27]
A
No, I know, I know. But I'm saying, you know, the Lakers finished third last year and they were really interested in injured, and now their overall team's a lot healthier. I do think that it is an, you know, it is an interesting situation that they're in, which is that literally nobody on this team is truly locked in other than Luca.
- [29:46]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:47]
A
You know, Hachimura is under contract, Vanderbilt's under contract. But like, those aren't guys that if the Lakers couldn't move off if they tried to, you know, they're not core players and, you know, I suspect Austin Reeves strongly is going to get resigned, but they're in this. They're in this sort of nether region.
- [30:05]
B
We have a story running on Friday and About a lot of extension guys across league, veteran extension guys. And one of the people we talked about in the story is Austin Reeves and how like the last three years the guy has made a combined $39 million and he's going to walk into free age as a 28 year old who just averaged 25 and 5 and shot 37% from 3. The list of guys last year who had 20 and 5 and shot 37% from three was like Steph Dame, Jalen Brunson, LeBron, they were all stars. Jokic, you know, so Austin Reeves is going to walk into next summer saying I should get 30 or 35 or 40 a year and there's going to be teams that have money to spend and he's a. In his prime. He'll be unrestricted handler who's an unrestricted free agent. So like, yeah, you know, he could get paid a lot of money.
- [30:56]
A
Yeah, I think, I think the Lakers will prioritize keeping him. But I'm just saying that Luca is long term committed, but it's hard to see what. I have no idea who's going to be on the Lakers roster in two years other than Luca. I wouldn't say anybody on this team. I would say for sure is on the, is on the team.
- [31:13]
B
I think, I think the simplest, I think the simplest reason to not have the Lakers in the tier with these other teams is, is I think you very. If you start to go down the Lakers roster, once you get past two or three guys, you very quickly run out of players who would be playing for any of these other teams. And those other teams also have high end players. Like, it's not like the Lakers are the only ones with a top five or ten player on the team.
- [31:40]
A
I thought it was interesting. J.J. redick, so. So if you've watched NDA today at all this week also it's been on various digital channels of espn. Tim Legler went to the. Every year the coaches, all the NBA head coaches get together for a big meeting. I believe it's in Chicago.
- [31:59]
D
Yes.
- [31:59]
A
And Legler went there and he sat with all these coaches and did film breakdown and they'd be running those. And he sat with JJ Redick, the one with JJ Redick ran a couple of days ago and they were looking at a defensive possession and JJ was like, you know, on our, they were looking at last year, you know and JJ was like, well you know, we don't have any defensive stoppers and we don't have any defensive stoppers this year either. So we have to Play team defense. He wasn't trying to take a shot at his team. He was trying to talk about his philosophy.
- [32:29]
B
No, but it's, it's also, it's not a shot at his team. It's also just reality they don't have, they don't have a guy to.
- [32:35]
C
Marcus Smart probably still considers himself a defensive stopper. We can argue about whether that's reality at this point, but go on, Marcus.
- [32:45]
A
I thought it was interesting.
- [32:45]
B
Marcus Smart from three or four years ago shows up this year with the Lakers. I will grant him that. I, I'm going to need to see that based off how the last couple of years have gone.
- [32:55]
A
Well, deandre Ayton has looked pretty good in the preseason. He's been a, he's in good shape. He's put, he's been a defensive, you know, he's put a bunch of defensive stats up there. We'll have to wait and see, you know, whether that translates into good team defense. But he's put up, he's made plays defensively. The thing about Ayton is sometimes it's what doesn't show up in the box score because he's put up offensive counting stats since he was, since day one. It's the rebounds he doesn't get, it's the rotations he doesn't get. I mean, there's a reason why all of his teams end up barking at him in the huddle because they tend to, they, he tends to drive him crazy.
- [33:32]
C
Doesn't set it's the roles when he doesn't go hard.
- [33:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, I just, I, all those first sixteens we talked about, I think we all agree they definitely can win a first round series and maybe win two. I, I, it's hard right now for me to look at the Lakers, particularly when we don't have any idea what's happening with the bronze back and say that you have any confidence. Well, I know, but it's, we're ranking them right now like, like they should be to me. They should be in their own tier by themselves at seventh because they're better than Dallas. That's the whole point. It's the whole point of tiering it. So here's my better they're better than Dallas, they're better than San Antonio. They're better than the teams behind them. But they're, I think they're clearly not as good as the warriors or the Clippers or the Wolves or the Rockets.
- [34:20]
A
True, but they, but Luka could win the MVP this year.
- [34:23]
C
That's my thing.
- [34:24]
A
Lucas LeBron LeBron could be all NBA. I have no idea how he's to going to feel like. By the way, the thing about sciatica is it's not so much that, you know, his recovery. Yes, his recovery is a process. It's also that you got to stay on top of it. You got to really be careful not to overextend him. He's got to really work to keep himself loose.
- [34:43]
B
Yeah, that's my. That would be my whole. That would be my argument. If LeBron was fully healthy and they walked into the season and you had locked in Luca, healthy, fit, ready to go and a healthy LeBron James. Yeah, I would say you can make an argument, even though I think they'd still be lesser than those teams, that the Lakers could go into any series and feel like they have a shot with those two guys against anybody short of okc. The problem is we're walking into the season with the oldest player in the league with a back issue and we have really no idea how it's going to go. So I think we have to treat it like there's a good chance he's going to miss more time with the back and that's going to create a lot of other cascading problems that they then have to deal with.
- [35:27]
A
Right. But, but if you're looking at the spectrum of the results that he could, that they could have, you can acknowledge the fact that he could end up being healthy and that Reeves could have an all star level season and that LeBron could have an all NBA season because he had one last year and Luka could have an mvp.
- [35:45]
B
Yes. In the spectrum of, in the, in the, in the range of simulations, there is, there are simulations where that happens. I think the much more likely scenario is that the Lakers are okay, but they're not as good as those teams because again, like you said, like, no disrespect to Jared Vanderbilt and Gabe Vincent and Rui Hachimura. Hold on.
- [36:07]
C
Oh, Gabe Vincent had 18 points in 4 minutes, 9 seconds against the maverick starters. Okay. Don't you be bad in the wake of that.
- [36:15]
B
Gabe Vincent's a nice player. If you'd said before last season, would you rather have those three guys healthy or LeBron James? The Lakers would have said LeBron James.
- [36:24]
A
Of course you're right. Of course you're right. I'm just saying they finished third last year despite those challenges and there was.
- [36:30]
B
Yes, a whole bunch of teams were in the same spot and I would say that most of the other teams around them got better and I would say the Lakers are either the same or worse. We're talking about their second best player. Their second best players got a sciatica problem.
- [36:46]
C
Potential challengers. Luga will have a revenge type of season. I think we all would wager on that. Their potential is going to be determined by LeBron's health and DeAndre Ayton's head. But Wendy, they're in this. They're in this tier.
- [36:58]
A
All right, so okay.
- [37:00]
B
I mean I just enjoy how we do these things and then we just disregard all logic.
- [37:04]
C
We vote.
- [37:05]
A
No, we didn't.
- [37:05]
C
We just discussed all logic and then we voted. Okay, sure.
- [37:10]
A
So we have Thunder in the first tier, Rockets and, and Nuggets in the second tier and the third tier we have what McMahon. I've lost track.
- [37:19]
C
Golden State, Minnesota and the two LA teams. Yes. Oven through.
- [37:25]
A
Yeah. I have the Clippers far ahead, but. Well, yeah, well listen, assuming I think makes sure the Clippers is. You would be a losing. You'd be a loser if you assumed with the Clippers. So I just have to accept that.
- [37:38]
C
And then the next tier I have is the play in probables. Now by the math, one of these teams won't cut it if we go with my numbers, but probably three of these four teams will end up in the play in. I've got Mavs, Grizzlies, spurs and those Kangs. The infusion of Russell Westbrook, number 18.
- [37:59]
A
In your program, is that what he's wearing? Number 18?
- [38:02]
C
18.
- [38:02]
B
18 season.
- [38:04]
A
Yeah.
- [38:04]
C
Zero.
- [38:04]
A
Is that right? Okay. Well, by the way, but not the greatest news. Was the bottas Sabonis hurting his hamstring?
- [38:11]
B
Yeah, I would, I would not have the Kings in this group. The Kings have not looked great. The Kings have a lot of issues up and down the roster. I actually think if you're going to add another team, I think the best of the rest of those teams is Portland. I don't, I don't really think Portland necessarily can keep up with these teams but I think if you look at those bottom five or six, like Portland's got maybe too many guys almost, but they have like 10 or 11 solid players and they should have a good defensive team. And you know, the spurs have the. Dallas certainly has injury questions. The spurs have some injury questions already. Memphis jaws out. You know, they always have injury with the Grizzly injury report, obviously he's already struck multiple times in the preseason.
- [39:01]
C
Although Jaren Jackson Jr. Played the other night, which is obviously good news.
- [39:05]
B
No, which is great. Right. Jaren. Looks like Jaren's on track to be ready for opening night, which is great but we don't really have any sense of when ja's going to be back. So I would, I would say those three teams plus Portland is a group just because Sacramento, the sabotage thing is just the latest thing but they, they look like a, a very big mess and I don't, I don't see how they're really going to stop anybody either.
- [39:26]
C
I'm not going to die on the hill of including Sacramento in this tier, so you can talk me out of that one pretty quick.
- [39:31]
A
Yeah, well, so Portland last year started the season 13 and 28. There was rumblings, rumblings of Chauncey Billups's job security and then they went on a streak where they won 10 out of 11 games in January and it turned their season around. They ended up I think four or five games over.500 from January on. And then there's a, there's a stat.
- [39:55]
C
They had the number one defense in the league for the last half of the season and then they fired their defense coordinator Roy Rogers.
- [40:01]
B
But hey, yeah, they went 23 and 18 over the second half of the year and they had a top five or so defense.
- [40:07]
A
Yeah.
- [40:07]
B
Which again I, which again I, you know I think there's a lot of questions being asked about down the stretch stats in the NBA but if you just go through their rotation, you know again that I love the addition of Drew Holiday from a long taking on that money long term. Not really. But like if you add him to, he's still a solid defensive player at this point of his career and you add him to, to Monic Kamara and Denny Avia and Donovan Clingan is a monster inside. Like they, you know Jeremy Grant is a long wing. Like they've just, they've just got a lot of size and defensive ability all over the place and like they at least going to be good at that end. That gives you at least a baseline to be okay.
- [40:46]
C
And I will say Shaden Sharp has looked spectacular during the preseason and yeah.
- [40:51]
B
He'S looked really good. It's going to be interesting to see if he gets extended.
- [40:53]
C
Yeah, I don't think anybody questions whether he is talented.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, I heard pessimism on the Shade and Sharp extension front but I don't buy it.
- [41:06]
B
Clutch has Shane Sharp and last year Clutch had Jalen Johnson who is I would say a very similar kind of player in terms of a young, very high upside guy who hadn't.
- [41:15]
A
Well, they're very different players but you're talking about the Class of players.
- [41:18]
B
Well, yes, very high upside young players who have. For injury reasons. And you know, Shaden's, you know, Shade has missed a decent amount of time. I think Jalen missed more. But yeah, again, you watch, you watch Shaden sharp play. He's a 6, 7 toolbox wing who, I mean, I watched the first game they played against Golden State. He had I think 18 in the first half. He's cooking every guy the warriors put on him. Like he could really be athletic. Yeah, he could really pop. So that, that would be my tier.
- [41:46]
A
With those four teams from Scoot Henderson is gonna miss. He had, he tore his hamstring right. Right before camp, I think.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah, he suffered a hamstring injuries out for a while. But that's the thing. Like they're, they're two or three deep at just about every position. So it, you know, it's there. They can withstand injury more than a lot of other teams.
- [42:05]
A
I wouldn't have Portland or Sack in this group.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah, I mean I, I'm fine. I'm fine leaving Portland out too. I just think that Portland, I think has a high enough floor even though I don't love their ceiling long term. And I think that Dallas, San Antonio and Memphis all have real floor concerns for me because of the pretty obvious injury questions they all come into the season with and could have as it goes along.
- [42:29]
C
Well, the Mavs have fit questions, including whether Cooper flag as an 18 year old is ready to run point guard for the first time in his entire life while learning the ropes of the NBA. Like he's.
- [42:41]
A
The stats of him not turning the ball over are pretty.
- [42:45]
C
He had five turnovers in the Charlotte game when he didn't start at point guard, you know.
- [42:49]
A
Right. But then he hasn't turned the ball over at all.
- [42:51]
C
Well, yeah, but he's, he's. There have been pretty clear growing bents and honestly like that's their best defensive lineup. But he was guarding Gabe Benson on that ridiculous scoring flow that I mentioned. He's. He's 6, 9 and 18 years old. He's not been the defender on the ball handler and picking rolls a whole lot in his life. That's a pretty steep learning curve to do in your first weeks in the NBA.
- [43:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, this is why I'm, I'm down on Dallas overall this year. But like, long term, I think all this stuff is awesome. Like we talked about a couple weeks ago, like he should be playing point guard for them. They should be having him run pick and rolls. They should have me guarding pick and rolls doing all this stuff like yeah, maybe Kyrie Irving can come back late in the year and these guys can maybe be frisky. But this, this is not a year. This year should not be about Dallas trying to win a title. It should be about getting Cooper flag as much and as many as much experience as many different kinds of experiences they can get. For a guy who's got a chance to be one of the players in the league as a rookie and have him learn on the job as much as possible, it's a, you know, while playing with Anthony Davis and you know, a bunch of good players around him. Like I, you know, I was excited to see him start a bit point the other day. I hope that's how they start the regular season. They should have him out there doing that.
- [44:06]
A
Jake, I haven't heard you guys talk about the Pelicans yet.
- [44:08]
C
Oh, hold on. We'll get into the program in a little bit. One last little point on on flag. Actually two quick ones. Very quick. Jake is not ready to commit to that super size lineup to start the season, but I would put my money down on him going that way. 2. You speak of learning on the job. 18 seconds left in the first half or first quarter, they get a possession. He jacked up a off dribble, kind of fade away with like 10 seconds left. That's a pretty glaring mistake that J kid pointed out Cooper Flag pointed out Anthony Davis pointed out all post game. I bet you that's a mistake he doesn't make again. But again, yeah, playing point guard the first time in his life, having to think time and score and you know, who's touched the ball and all those kind of things. It'll be a learning experience for him this season.
- [44:51]
A
And by the way, speaking of the Mavericks, Jason Kidd got his contract extended earlier this week. I thought our former colleague at espn, he's now at SNY in New York. Ian Begley covers the Knicks. I thought he had a world class line when he said I know the line you're mentioning that the Knicks coaching search this year was a stimulus package for the coaching because Billy Donovan, I mean, I don't know, maybe he'd have gotten extended anyway, but Billy Donovan got extended by the Bulls when the Knicks came calling. I think Eme Udoka was probably going to get extended anyway, but he got extended when the Knicks showed interest. And now Jason Kidd, although it was a few months later. I don't know when they actually agreed to this McMahon, but I think it.
- [45:29]
C
Finally got done this week. But it Was it was clear it needed to happen when the Mavericks didn't let him interview with the Knicks, which was basically them not letting him take the job of the Knicks. By the way, the last time Jake had got an extension was when the Lakers job came open and they were interested in them. Okay, so we, we, I think we, we've agreed that we'll just go three teams, which makes the numbers right for the playing probables. Tier. Dallas, Memphis, San Antonio. I've named the next year the Purgatory tier. I'm comfortable putting the Kings there. The Trailblazers, the Suns.
- [45:58]
A
The Kings Know what Purgatory is like. It's an old friend.
- [46:01]
D
Yes.
- [46:02]
C
The Suns and New Orleans. That's my Purgatory tier.
- [46:05]
B
Any, any disagreement I would have, I would have New Orleans with Utah.
- [46:09]
C
New Orleans. Orleans is going to love this here. I can't do that. I can't do that because I had, I had the last here looking at the lotto, so I can't put New Orleans in that.
- [46:19]
B
I mean, I mean, New Orleans is going to be looking at the lotto. They're just going to be looking at the lotto and sending the Pick by. By FedEx delivery to Atlanta looking at the lotto, saying they're gonna be looking at the lotto.
- [46:30]
C
Damn.
- [46:30]
B
Yeah, that's what they're gonna be doing. Let me look at the lottery going. You know, could have had Darren Peterson or Nate of Men or AJ Devanza or any one of these guys and what's a loaded draft? And instead we're gonna do our own stimulus package and send it off to the Atlanta Hawks.
- [46:46]
C
Listen, I've seen multiple highlights of Zion dunking on breakaways, so I think all's well in New Orleans.
- [46:53]
A
How many points did Jeremiah Fierce have the other night?
- [46:56]
C
This reminds me though. Actually he had 20. But a large chunk of those are fourth quarter quarter points in the preseason. So reading that what you will, this does remind me a fella who goes by the handle Retro Pels was offended by us bad Mouth and King Cakes on a recent podcast and the Pelicans and just felt like it was overboard. So he reached out to me and said, if the Pels make the playoffs, you all need to eat King cake on the pod. I said I would do it. Will you guys join me in that commitment if the Pelicans make the playoffs.
- [47:31]
A
You don't have to threaten me to eat cake. I'll eat cake.
- [47:34]
C
Okay?
- [47:35]
A
I'm just saying it's the concept of there being a hard plastic thing inside a cake is It's a, it's a remarkable.
- [47:43]
B
Can have Lopez send us cakes? They're not. I'm also not eating any cake because they ain't making playoffs.
- [47:48]
C
That part I think we all agree on. But there's the commitment. If they make the playoffs, we all have a one third came, by the way, Jeremiah Fears.
- [47:57]
B
Interesting. Jeremiah Fears is an interesting young prospect. He's also 18 or 19 years old and he's a point guard and he's going to struggle and they like, they're just not going to be very good. And that's before they potentially trade some of these guys because they probably should do that too. So, like.
- [48:12]
A
Well, look, if Zion gets hurt again, then. Okay, I agree.
- [48:17]
B
I'm not sure it's going to matter.
- [48:19]
A
All right.
- [48:19]
D
Do you.
- [48:20]
A
Would you have Trey Murphy on your team?
- [48:23]
B
I like.
- [48:24]
C
Yes.
- [48:24]
A
Okay.
- [48:25]
B
He's a good player.
- [48:26]
A
Would you have Herb Jones on your team?
- [48:28]
B
Herb Jones is also a good player.
- [48:30]
A
Would you have Jeremiah Fears on your team?
- [48:32]
B
I mean, Jeremiah Fierce is a good long term prospect who for winning games in 20, 25, 26 is probably going to be a disaster because he's a very young rookie guard. They tend to be disasters. That's not anything to do with his long term potential. I think he could be a really good player.
- [48:48]
A
Would you have Zion Williamson on your team?
- [48:50]
C
I would, I would continue to explore the trade market there. Ask about Jordan Pool.
- [48:55]
A
I did. I don't want to.
- [48:56]
C
Okay. Because I think you know the answer.
- [48:59]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, I would say Dejounte Murray too, but he's obviously, unfortunately.
- [49:03]
C
He'S not going to play for a while.
- [49:04]
B
Zion Williamson has been in the NBA for six seasons and has played a combined 214 games.
- [49:12]
A
Would you have Jose Alvarado on your team?
- [49:14]
C
Yeah, but he's a nice fine.
- [49:15]
B
He's a fine backup guard.
- [49:18]
A
I'm just saying, like, they got.
- [49:20]
B
Yeah, they're not, they're not a good team.
- [49:22]
C
They, they play every NBA conference and they don't have a ton of talent.
- [49:25]
B
The Utah Jazz have Walker Kessler and Larry Markin in at the four and the five. Like, they're both very good players. Their team is not going to be very good. That's.
- [49:35]
A
I'm not arguing that they're headed for the, they're headed for the, for the conference finals. I'm just saying that, like, there is a world in which they could make the plan.
- [49:46]
C
Okay, I'll eat king cake if they make the play in.
- [49:51]
A
You don't even. You don't even. You're Extending the bet from playoffs.
- [49:55]
C
King cake and wash it down with a bead of amber.
- [49:57]
B
Be the beat of beer. Our buddy Joe Goodman introduced it to a beat of beer many years ago.
- [50:01]
C
It's good.
- [50:02]
B
But, yeah, I just. They're just not a. They're just not a good team. And by the way, they also have. All these guys have injury questions. Led by Zion. Couple has played an average of 35 games a season. So, no, I don't believe Zion's now going to play 75 games. If he does magically play 75 games and play 32 minutes a game, yeah, maybe they'll make the play in because Zion is a very talented player. But I'm going to take the under because unfortunately, Zion gets hurt all the time.
- [50:28]
A
Zion played 70 games two years ago.
- [50:30]
B
Yes. That's a third of the games he's played in his entire career.
- [50:34]
A
Okay, I. Okay. I'm not guaranteeing anything. I'm just saying, like, you know, you.
- [50:39]
B
Did it one time.
- [50:40]
A
The league has decided that it was the worst trade in NBA history and they will have egg all over their face. Well, there is a. There is a. We're doing this.
- [50:47]
C
The league has decided that it was the worst trade since early February. Let's not.
- [50:51]
B
It's very.
- [50:52]
A
It's very.
- [50:53]
B
Yeah, the pro. Yes. The process of. And they're. You know what? Those two trades are also very linked because the process of trading Luka Doncic was awful. And the process that the Pelicans went through to make that trade was awful. The process was bad. The result is a different thing. Like if the. If the Mavericks. If Kyrie hadn't gotten hurt and the Mavericks had made the conference finals last year, some people, sure, Nico Harrison chief among them, would have argued that that was a good trade. It was not a good trade. No matter what the outcome is ironic. The process was terrible.
- [51:28]
C
Ironically, if that happened, they'd be in a lot worse shape right now.
- [51:31]
B
Correct. They wouldn't have Cooper flag.
- [51:33]
A
But Jackson points out as a. As an omen for their season. Kavon Looney, who basically never missed ever games ever for the warriors. He signs with the Pelicans and they went down to Australia and he sprained his knee, like, instantaneously. Yeah, I just.
- [51:50]
B
They're just not. They're not even as. They're not even as good as the. The King. Like, they're not as good as Portland.
- [51:57]
C
By the way, speaking of. Speaking of that sort of voodoo, the poor sons. I mean, listen, they've contributed a lot to their own demise. Jalen Green Never missed a game playing.
- [52:09]
A
Yeah, he's got the, he's got like the third longest streak in the league.
- [52:11]
C
Yeah.
- [52:12]
A
Of consecutive games.
- [52:14]
C
And now he's got a hammy that's going to sideline him start a season. I'm not saying that that's going to determine whether the Suns make the playoffs or not because I don't think any of us believe that they will. I'm just saying it's like, man, they tough for them to catch a break.
- [52:30]
A
Do you think the Suns will finish ahead of the Pelicans?
- [52:33]
B
Probably.
- [52:34]
C
But like, I'm definitely looking at like, definitely like 12th and through 14th somewhere in there.
- [52:40]
A
So the contemps has the Pelicans in the same tier as, as Devin Booker.
- [52:45]
B
Devin Booker will be good this year and the, the Suns are going to be motivated to play out the string and play hard and they're. They're going to win. I'm not saying they're going to win 45 games.
- [52:58]
C
They're not.
- [52:59]
B
But they're, they're going to be around where they were last year. Like at some point this season, the Pelicans are going to be out of the mix. What's that?
- [53:08]
C
That's. Damn it. With faint praise.
- [53:10]
B
Well, but I'm saying, like, look, let's say the Pelicans are just not very good and they're on their way to finishing with 32 wins. Right. Like with everybody around, which is probably a reasonable expectation for what their season is going to be. If that's the case on like February 1st. I, I know. I was just making jokes about them sending the pick to Atlanta, but there's zero reason for them to do anything but play Jeremiah Fierce 33 minutes a game and play Derek Queen 33 minutes a game and let those guys get experience and play and play through mistakes. So like, unless they're like firmly in the mix to make the play in, I think there's a pretty good chance that down the stretch of the season they're going to be playing young guys a lot. And a team that's already not very good is probably going to be worse than. So yeah, I do think they'll be better than Phoenix. Will be better than them.
- [54:05]
A
Here's the thing about Phoenix. So we, we always talk about how the Suns don't control their draft, but their pick swap this year is with Washington.
- [54:18]
C
No, Nobody. It's not Memphis.
- [54:22]
B
Ishington.
- [54:23]
C
Memphis is very likely to end up with the Sun's pick via the Desmond Bain trail. Yeah. Yeah.
- [54:28]
A
But who's the pick swap? With is it not with Washington.
- [54:31]
B
I pick is swapped. The, the draft pick itself is swapped around, but the Suns don't have the pick.
- [54:37]
C
It's one of those things where Memphis is going to end up with the best of whatever.
- [54:42]
A
But they traded the downside.
- [54:44]
C
Washington Pig is protected one through eight.
- [54:46]
A
That's right. That's right. Okay. All right.
- [54:49]
C
Yes.
- [54:49]
B
Yes. It was in Orlando as a result of some other transactions. I don't remember Which. And as McMahon said, in the Desmond Bain trade, it went to Memphis.
- [54:59]
A
I I can't keep track of which picks are swapped and traded.
- [55:04]
B
Actually. Now I want to see how that I wonder. Bobby's got that in his sheet, I think.
- [55:08]
C
I'm curious what the I just know when the Grizzlies made that trade, they consider that to be the most valuable asset in the trade going their way.
- [55:17]
B
That was definitely the juiciest trade asset. Yeah.
- [55:20]
C
Because it's that in a package of Magic picks and then, you know, the players that were in there.
- [55:25]
A
All right, so you have in the bottom tier, bond temps, you have New Orleans and Utah.
- [55:31]
C
I I give the Pel Pelicans purgatory status. I'm being friendly. My, my mentions were, you know how I feel my mentions were. I think everybody who, who sits in the lower bowl in those games was in my mentions after the recent podcast. So there was like at least 47 people going after me.
- [55:48]
A
Well, the there is a small but vocal Pelicans.
- [55:52]
C
Does Jason Reddick get booed when he goes back there, by the way, because he had that little, little look I.
- [55:58]
B
I have, I have a lot of sympathy for Pelicans fans because they have, you know, they've been through the ringer on a few fronts. But it doesn't change the fact that the team is not very good and it's just not a great situation.
- [56:13]
A
A friendly WB the Jazz are hoping that Ace Bailey has a good year this year and that's what you're watching.
- [56:20]
C
And he showed some signs in preseason.
- [56:23]
A
Yeah, he had a couple of moments.
- [56:25]
C
And hey, he's moved on from the advisor who was very concerning, to put it mildly.
- [56:35]
A
Some incredible gifts. GIFs.
- [56:39]
C
Yes.
- [56:39]
A
Out there. That gentleman.
- [56:41]
C
My understanding is he is very coachable. There's no clutch like he has star potential. There's no question that he's there's upside there. But you know, he's a teenager. He's not going to drive winning this year with a very flawed roster around him. And unfortunately he's dealing with soreness in both knees right now. I'm not sure. If that's going to be something that lingers. Hopefully not.
- [57:03]
B
Hopefully not. And look, last year, Will Hardy was coaching with both hands tied behind his back, and the Jazz are doing a lot of, you know, roster shenanigans, I think it's fair to say, to try to give themselves the best chance to get Cooper Flag or Dylan Harper in the draft. They obviously did not continue their streak of never jumping up in the lottery. And, you know, Austin Ange came in, said, we're not going to manipulate the roster this year, and subsequently traded all the veteran players who were involved in that last year to make sure that that will not be the case. And they're not going to do that. And it's going to be. I think it. I think it will be a fun. I think, for Jazz fans. I think it will be a fun year to watch because you're going to be seeing. Well, no, I'm not saying they're going to win 50 games, but you're going to be watching Walter Clayton and again, assuming the knee thing isn't an issue, Ace Bailey, and hopefully Taylor Hendricks gets back from that leg injury last year. They're going to be watching these young drafted players and Larry Markkanen and Walker Kessler play, and it won't be what it was last year, which was a pretty depressing experience watching them yank guys out of games and stuff like that.
- [58:12]
A
By the way, I want to bring something up about a former Jazz man. Colin Sexton, was traded to the Hornets.
- [58:19]
B
One of the guys who was moved out to create room for the young players to play.
- [58:23]
A
Yeah. So there's been some adjusted heights that have happened across the league this year. Actually, we talked the other day about. On with Vinnie Goodwill and Slater about how Victor has been readjusted to 7 5, which I believe is still low.
- [58:44]
C
I'm just going with seven foot, several for. For Victor.
- [58:49]
A
Colin Sexton was listed with the Jazz last year at 6:3.
- [58:53]
C
Oh, and.
- [58:55]
A
And he's been reassessed by the Hornets and listed on their official roster as six foot.
- [59:01]
C
Okay. I was gonna say. Well, it's an. Understand.
- [59:03]
B
He was never 6 3.
- [59:04]
A
No, I understand.
- [59:05]
D
With the hair.
- [59:06]
C
I know they measured the hair. That's clear. That.
- [59:09]
A
I'm just saying to you that, you know, we see, you know, Con Canopy went from six five to six four. Ryan Kalkbrenner went from seven one to seven foot. You know, this happens from time to time. You see guys, you know, go up and down an inch. Three inches is tough.
- [59:27]
C
Three inches is. That's an impressive decrease for sure.
- [59:30]
A
Also, he was, he was measured at 6:1 in shoes at the combine.
- [59:35]
C
Well, then you take the shoes off.
- [59:36]
B
It would be, it would be tough. It would actually be tough if he really did get 3 inches smaller. I don't, I don't think he did so. No, I think it actually was all that. He's been actually tough for.
- [59:48]
A
He's been league for seven years. I think the league has a pretty good idea of his skill set. I'm just saying that, you know, that's, I have not seen a 3 inch correction. That's, you know, maybe Jackson have to get onto that one.
- [60:03]
B
This is what, this is where we're at in tear spot. We're dissecting the, we're dissecting the, the height adjustments.
- [60:10]
A
I just think I should point out, I, I, you know, it just made me think of Colin Sexton. I mean, I'm not six. I couldn't pass for six foot three ever.
- [60:18]
C
What do you, what do you listen at, Wendy?
- [60:20]
A
5 11. Is that accurate? 511 in shoes?
- [60:24]
C
I'll be honest.
- [60:25]
A
So 5 11.
- [60:27]
C
So most 511 guys say six foot. So I'll give you credit.
- [60:31]
A
No, I'm not six foot. I will say this week, you know, Bobon Marinovic was in the studio with us.
- [60:39]
B
Marianovic. I don't know what, I don't know.
- [60:41]
A
What you just said.
- [60:42]
B
That's not it either. Mark Yanovich is his name. Marianovic.
- [60:48]
C
That's a worldly guy.
- [60:49]
B
Just say, just say Bobot.
- [60:51]
A
Yeah, everybody says him as Bobon. So Perk, by the way, speaking of correcting Kite, Perk admitted he was like six nine.
- [61:00]
C
Yeah.
- [61:01]
A
When we do the live shows, you know, we do these photos. You know, we have people coming up with a meet and greet and we do these photos. And YouTube bastards are like 64 or 6 5. I mean, I already am embarrassed for that.
- [61:14]
C
And then six five in the program.
- [61:17]
A
Yeah. What are you without three and a half? All right, thank you for going through the tears. We'll be right back with James Jones.
- [61:28]
B
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- [62:32]
A
This episode is brought to you by Contentful Marketers. You know that feeling when your creative clicks, when that social post sends engagement through the roof, when your outside of the box campaign hits ROI positive, when a personalized homepage turns prospects into customers. It's utter marketing bliss. Contentful helps you create tailored omnichannel experiences without working overtime. No stress, no limits, only possibilities. Get the feels@contentful.com okay, now joining us as promised, the executive vice president. Excuse me, I don't want to call you, just vice president Executive of basketball operations of the NBA. Brand new to the job, but not brand new to any of us, James Jones. What's up, James? Thanks for joining us.
- [63:26]
D
I really appreciate it. It's great to great to see you and be on with you today.
- [63:29]
A
I've covered James as a player, as an executive, and now I'm set to grill him as a member of the NBA executive office team. Can I ask you, why did you, why did you want this job? This does not sound like the most fun job on the basketball landscape. Replacing Joe Dumars is the czar. Yeah, there's like czar of discipline, a czar of operations, but really tsar of getting bitched at from my experience. So I would say to you, why did you want this job where you get bitched at about 350 days a year?
- [64:07]
D
Well, it's funny, I mean, I've known Joe for a long time and, and had a really great opportunity to, to get to know him while he was in this role and.
- [64:15]
A
Yeah, because you were bitching at him.
- [64:16]
D
No, not me. You know me. I mean, I do know that's never been my, my, my mode of operation, but like my experience as a, as a player, as a member of the Players association executive committee, as a front office executive, I felt like there was a part of this like NBA ecosystem I just didn't have visibility to. So being a player, being exact, the last part was working for the league. And so initially it wasn't something I thought about. But after my interactions with Joe and talking to him about what the job actually is and what you can accomplish. I felt like it'd be kind of a great progression and I would be remiss if I didn't say my experience.
- [64:56]
B
Experience.
- [64:56]
D
Working with Mark and Byron and Adam over the years, being on the competition committee, I saw more to this job than just, like, discipline.
- [65:05]
B
Well, to your point, James, the thing that people associate with this job is discipline. We're sitting here right now. While you were talking, I got an email from the league office that you find Jonathan Kaminga, $35,000 for his ejection the other night. That's the thing that with this job, everybody associates with it. What is the punishment that's coming down from you and your office for different disciplinary things that happen? But as we, as you just alluded to and as we know, there's a lot of other things that go into the job. So when you talk about the other things you do, beyond just talking to the lease GMs, what, what goes into this job? What are the things that. That you touch on a daily basis that, you know, impact the way that fans are watching the game and that teams are operating and the different parts of it that you're involved in?
- [65:48]
D
Well, I say my, my biggest is, is being able to take the feedback that I'm getting from GMs, from operations folks, from fans, and see whether or not we do need to progress and change some things, right? And whether or not these things are creating issues for players or coaches or staffers that prevent them from focusing on their main thing, which is. Is playing the game of basketball. And so on the floor, it's easy. Everyone sees it. The cameras are there, like an act on the floor. It was replayed a thousand times. But simple things, when you go in and guys are like, hey, man, by the way, I know I was talking about something else, but the lighting here is really, really bad for. For shooters. Well, if that's impacting performance, you know, I can appreciate that. And so for someone that might not be a big deal, but for me, right away, my. My bells go off and I say, okay, where do I need to go? Who do I need to talk to to make sure that this issue that may distract our performers from performing is eliminated. So they can go out there and they can, you know, make memorable experience for our fans and more importantly, feel confident that, like, the league is responsive to the things that impact their performance.
- [66:51]
A
So you mentioned you were in the union leadership for years, so a lot of the folks who've had the job that you're in right Now, Rod Thorne was legendary in this job. And. But Rod Thorne was a player executive and then worked in this job. Kiki Vandui, same thing. Player executive, worked in this job. Joe Dumars, obviously, Hall of Famer, incredibly successful executive and worked in this job. You have worked in this job or you have, I think what you. How did you go to eight finals, James?
- [67:24]
D
Eight final. Seven is a player and one is an exec.
- [67:27]
A
Right? So eight finals. Seven finals in a row. Right. At one point, yeah. With the Cavs and Heat, you built a Western Conference championship team in Phoenix. But the one thing that you've done that I don't think other people have done is you've also worked in that union leadership and been through CBA negotiations and wondered what people sitting in this job were thinking. Like, this is a little bit different. I guess it's not unheard of to work for the union and the league office, but you have kind of a unique resume here and there. Will. It probably already has been, but there's going to be times where you go head to head with Andre Iguodala at the union, with Ron Kleppner and Kirk Berger, their other leaders. That gives a bit of a different profile. So. Because a lot of times the league office is, you know, adversarial with the. With union, especially when it comes to, you know, finding and taking players money.
- [68:27]
D
Yeah. Well, you know, I've always said, like, the biggest thing is, like, having clarity, right? And understanding why we're doing what we're doing and why we're holding the lines that we're holding, building. And while we're trying to keep, you know, I would say boundaries, I, I said, like, if you think about the rules of the game, right, A player's responsibility or. Or primary job is to push the boundaries because you're trying to compete. You're trying to compete against your opponent. So you're trying to win. You're trying to get every edge you can and stay within the lines. The league's job is to make sure that those line. Those lines and those boundaries are very, very clear. And once that's established, yeah, you'll have a back and forth. You have some tension. One's pushing one way, the other's pushing the other way. But at the end of the day, everyone's trying to play the game, right? You're trying to play the game fair and trying to win. So my perspective from the union allowed me to know, like, selfishly, the union, we wanted our things, right? Selfishly, the league wanted their things. But when you peel that away, we all wanted what was best for the game. And so I'm already in that space where I can see it through both lenses, where, okay, I understand, you know, like, no one wants to find a guy. Like, we don't want to take anyone's money is hard earned. But we also have to make sure that we keep things in balance and we keep things fair and we hold a standard. And both, both sides get that.
- [69:42]
B
Brian alluded to it earlier, but a lot of this job, and you did too, is interfacing with the different teams and interfacing with the GMs of the different teams. You obviously were in that job for the past several years in Phoenix. What was your sort of impression of what this job was from that side of it? And has there been anything. I know you've only been in it for a couple of months, but has there been anything early on that surprised you about it compared to what you expected it would be before you got into it?
- [70:08]
D
It's given me an opportunity to see every GM and every league executive in a different light. When you're on the team side and you're one of the 30 guys competing, you see the competitive side. You just see, I always say it's the individual side of, of that kind of community. Here I'm able to see people on a different, in a different view, and I'm actually able to help. The GM community is tight, right? You, you, you understand the pressures that we're all working under, but you don't share too much information. You don't want to give up in a competitive advantage. Right on this side, like, guys are talking to me and telling me what challenges they face, how I can help them, what they think the league can do better, what they think they can do better as GMs. And it's great because, you know, I sit in the seat where now my sole job is to push the game forward. And they know that. And so our interactions are different. They're more, I want to say they're, they're layered. They're deeper than the superficial, like, hey, how you doing? Good luck this season. And now it's more of like, hey, what are some of the things that we can do from a league perspective that will help all 30 teams versus just my team?
- [71:15]
A
You may be maybe able to appreciate this. I've as I've been working in the league for a couple decades, one of the things I notice is the different way, different people see their perspective on the game. So, for example, you talk to A player. A player may be like that player over there, doesn't like me, won't pass the ball, or that ref doesn't like me, won't take care of me, or that coach doesn't like me. A coach might say, that player doesn't like me, that ref doesn't like me. And then my boss, the gm, doesn't like me. I'm getting screwed by my boss, or I'm getting, you know, screwed by this guy over here. When you talk to the executive level, the league is screwing me. The league, you know, we're getting screwed by the league. And so, like, you know, you very rarely hear the player complain about the league. But I know where that call goes. It goes to your office. Can you take us through? And I know you've only been doing it since the game's been going on for a few weeks here in the preseason. Can you take us through what a typical day is like for you, as after a night of games. And I know you have a staff that also shares the load. But what, what a typical, you know, you know, workday is like, especially after you. Maybe there's been six or seven or eight games the night before.
- [72:21]
D
Well, I'll say because of the nature of our business, there are no typical days. But I will say, like, a lot of it comes down to monitoring all of these games and everything that's happening in these games and everything that happens leading up to the game. So if you have, you know, like in game, you have player, player issues before the game, you have logistic issues, post game, you have, you know, player, coach, media issues, like, all of these things that you're looking at to just make sure that once again, on game nights, the operation is frictionless. And so there's sometimes proactive calls to GMs just to check in team execs. A lot of times it's fielding reactive calls where people make. Someone may call and say, hey, you know, last night my guy got a technical file. And I really want to understand more what he said because I really couldn't get it from him. I really couldn't get it in real time. I want some context because I want to take this back to my team to make it a teaching moment so they understand, like, how we can move forward without having anything that costs us a point or cost us a game. So for the most part, it's just, I always said it's a dynamic, interactive job where every day I'm talking to someone in some front office or some team or some player that wants To. To get clarification on something. And I love it because it allows me, like I said, to push the game forward and. And give back in a way that helps. I always say our performers help our performers perform.
- [73:45]
B
We were. We were talking about this before the call a little bit, but you were just in Abu Dhabi. I believe you're also in Macau for both of the preseason games over there. There's been a lot of talk about potential expansion overseas, different things like that, how. How much of your job involves any kind of discussions around that kind of stuff. And just in general, as somebody who's been on the player side, the executive side, now the league side, what has sort of been your take on the. The way the league, obviously it's always been a global sport, but the way the league as a whole, over the past 15 or 20 years has really made such a push to be a global league and has games now annually in Europe and in Mexico and preseason games back in China now and in the Middle east and sort of spanning the globe throughout the 12 months of the year.
- [74:32]
D
I mean, sometimes I have to pinch myself and actually, like, it's. It's really cool to see how the game has gone. And I give. I give Mark and Adam kudos, like, they've done a tremendous job of expanding our game. I went back, I was in the Global games, I think in Shanghai back in maybe 2012 or 2010 or so long ago, I couldn't remember the exact years, but being over in China and watching the game then and looking at how it's expanded now, in Macau last week, unbelievable to see the fans and just see the excitement about our game. And so we talk about European expansion, we talk about being a truly global sport. And I've had a perspective as a player and as an executive, and I can appreciate how heavy of a lift that is to not just run the league here, but also talk about expanding the game internationally. And so my voice, it carries some weight. I'm available whenever they ask, from my perspective. But I'm just one of hundreds of people who are experts in this field that are really genuinely excited about the growth of our game. I mean, I think our game is unlike any other game. It ports anywhere you go. You give us a basketball court, you give us a basketball hoops net, give us 10 players, a referee. All you need is one coach and you have a game. And that's the beauty of our sport. You can play at any time, anywhere, almost on any surface. And so when you go over there and you see thousands of Fans, many of whom have never seen a game live, to see how they respond and react to it. You know you're on the right path. You know that you're in the coolest sport in the world.
- [76:14]
A
All right, James, we could talk to you for hours on your. All the teams. We didn't even touch on the. The Heatles that you were a part of.
- [76:22]
D
Yeah, that was before. That'd be for another.
- [76:24]
A
You had a key role in the. The Harlem Shit Shake video. I felt that was. I was. I think out of everything you accomplished in your career, the Harlem Shake video, that was sort of, you know, three times.
- [76:34]
C
Bring those memories back.
- [76:36]
D
I tried to suppress those memories, man. No, I mean, but that. That speaks to that team was special in the sense that, like, you had all of these great accomplished professionals who've been doing this at a very, very high level. But we never took ourselves so seriously where we couldn't sit back and have fun together and make fun of ourselves. So you need that when you're playing in this high pressure environment.
- [76:58]
A
Plus, you run some great Suns teams that could have won if them things didn't happen. I mean, you had a remarkable career at a later time when you're not all locked down by all this NBA. You know, everything's gotta be lined up. But I'll read your book when you write it. All right, thank you so much. James Jones, executive vice president of league operations. I look forward to reading many press releases with your name in it this season.
- [77:25]
D
Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the time, man.
- [77:27]
A
All right, thank you very much to James Jones. Thank you to Jackson for putting it all together. Thank you to Bontemps. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you for getting through the off season with us here at the Hoop Collective. Next week we shift to the real thing. Although we still got a podcast before the season starts. But anyway, no more tears. I promise you this is the last tiered podcast, but we'll talk to you next week.
- [77:53]
C
Adios, amigos.
- [78:05]
B
Talk about stepping up.
- [78:08]
A
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- [78:19]
D
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- [78:21]
A
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