OKC Takes Control, Disaster For Cavs, Knicks & Warriors Must Wins? + NBA Draft Lottery Storylines

Summary

Hoop Collective Podcast Summary Episode: OKC Takes Control, Disaster For Cavs, Knicks & Warriors Must Wins? + NBA Draft Lottery Storylines
Release Date: May 12, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst
Guests: Tim Bontemps, Bobby Marks, Zach Lowe

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1. Introduction and Episode Overview

Brian Windhorst kicks off the episode by welcoming listeners to the Hoop Collective podcast, focusing on the current NBA landscape. The discussion revolves around pivotal playoff games, team performances, key injuries, and upcoming NBA Draft Lottery storylines.

2. OKC Thunder vs. Denver Nuggets: A Grudge Match

The primary focus is on the intense playoff series between the Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC) and the Denver Nuggets.

• Clutch Moments and Key Performances:

  • Shai Gilgeous-Alexander emerges as a crucial player for the Thunder, especially in clutch moments despite earlier struggles. Windhorst notes, “[02:03] Shay won the day going down the stretch...” highlighting his pivotal performance in securing the win.
  • Zach Lowe comments on Gilgeous-Alexander’s ability to navigate the defense: “He was finally able to slip through. Crack, Boom” ([05:06]).

• Defensive Strategies and Team Depth:

  • The Nuggets employed effective defensive schemes, double-teaming Gilgeous-Alexander, which led to his increased passing and eventual scoring in critical moments.
  • Bobby Marks emphasizes OKC’s depth: “Alex Caruso, those three guys getting double figures off the bench…” ([12:07]).

• Exhaustion and Performance Decline:

  • Zach Lowe points out Nikola Jokic’s exhaustion affecting his performance: “[06:57] I don't think Jokic is tired. I think he's exhausted.”
  • The Nuggets’ rapid game scheduling (seven games in 13 days) has taken a toll, leading to subpar first quarters and overall performance: “[07:44] They shot 45 threes today. The most they've ever shot in a playoff game in franchise history.” ([12:14]).

3. Analyzing Nikola Jokic’s Struggles

Jokic’s performance has been under scrutiny due to fatigue and increased defensive pressure by the Thunder.

• Shooting Ineffectiveness:

  • Jokic has experienced a rare shooting slump, hitting only 33.3% in the last three games, his worst stretch in playoffs ([07:49]).
  • Windhorst compares Jokic’s current form to his performances in crucial playoff games, stating, “over the last three playoffs he has shot 56% from the field” ([07:44]).

• Turnover Issues:

  • Jokic is averaging five turnovers per game, exacerbated by his exhaustion and physical toll from defending against multiple Thunder players.

4. Cleveland Cavaliers: Injuries and Playoff Disappointment

The episode delves into the Cleveland Cavaliers' challenging playoff run marked by significant injuries and unmet expectations.

• Donovan Mitchell’s Injury:

  • Mitchell's left ankle injury poses a severe threat to the Cavs' playoff hopes. Windhorst describes the moment Mitchell was visibly struggling before leaving the game for an MRI: “[23:25] Donovan Mitchell was warming up... He stops himself and goes down...” ([23:41]).

• Team Depth and Performance:

  • The Cavs, despite a strong regular season (64 wins), face a potential early exit due to injuries to key players like Darius Garland and Evan Mobley.
  • Bobby Marks underscores the disappointment: “They were expecting to be hosting game one of the conference finals...” ([36:36]).

5. New York Knicks vs. Boston Celtics: Dominant Celtics Performance

The Knicks-Celtics series is highlighted, showcasing the Celtics’ overwhelming dominance.

• Celtics' Control and Strategy:

  • The Celtics have consistently outplayed the Knicks, leading by significant margins throughout the series. Zach Lowe remarks, “They scored more points in the first half than the Nuggets and Thunder combined...” ([21:52]).

• Knicks' Struggles:

  • The Knicks have failed to counter the Celtics' strategy, with key players like Jalen Brunson underperforming, shooting only 38% from the field in the series.

6. NBA Draft Lottery: Potential Winners and Impact

The podcast concludes with a discussion on the upcoming NBA Draft Lottery, debating which teams might secure top picks and the potential impact of selecting Victor Wembanyama.

• Teams in the Running:

  • Tim Bontemps expresses a desire to see top prospects land in the Eastern Conference to balance team strengths: “[53:00] I would like to see him wind up on the Eastern seaboard with either Philly, Brooklyn or Washington.” ([52:46]).

• Potential Surprises:

  • Zach Lowe mentions the Rockets and Spurs as teams with a chance to land high picks, adding intrigue to the lottery process: “[54:27] The Rockets would be fun too.” ([54:35]).

• Impact of the Lottery Outcome:

  • Securing a top pick like Wembanyama could transform a franchise, similar to how key drafts have historically reshaped teams like the Spurs.

7. Closing Remarks

Brian Windhorst wraps up the episode by highlighting the importance of the upcoming draft and the ongoing struggles of key playoff teams. The discussion underscores the unpredictable nature of the playoffs and the potential for significant changes in the NBA landscape with the draft outcomes.

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Notable Quotes:

• Brian Windhorst: “Shay won the day going down the stretch.” ([02:03])
• Zach Lowe: “He was finally able to slip through. Crack, Boom.” ([05:06])
• Zach Lowe: “Nikola Jokic is exhausted.” ([07:44])
• Bobby Marks: “They look like a team that couldn't handle it.” ([22:07])
• Tim Bontemps: “Donovan Mitchell is having an MRI on Monday.” ([23:56])
• Zach Lowe: “They scored more points in the first half than the Nuggets and Thunder combined.” ([21:52])

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the Hoop Collective podcast episode, providing insights into key playoff games, player performances, team strategies, and future NBA Draft implications. Whether you're a dedicated NBA fan or new to the league, this summary offers a comprehensive overview of the current NBA playoff narratives and upcoming storylines.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA which we're.

[Tim Bontemps]

Doing Sunday night just before midnight on the East Coast. Guess who was at the New York Knicks, Boston Celtics Game three on Saturday.

[Brian Windhorst]

Making his first appearance in the Garden.

[Tim Bontemps]

Since fatherhood, Tim Bontemps.

[Bobby Marks]

Hello everybody.

[Tim Bontemps]

Joining us from Denver, Colorado, where he.

[Brian Windhorst]

Was at the pivotal game for today.

[Tim Bontemps]

Between the Thunder and Nuggets, which will not be being shipped to Springfield, but was an important game nonetheless is Ban McMahon.

[Zach Lowe]

Howdy, partners. You know what? I play Sunday morning pickup ball in the summers and the shooting in the first half, especially of this game, reminded me a little bit of those runs.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, I guess we'll start right there.

[Brian Windhorst]

Just delaying Cavs corner here. I think first off, the Thunder were facing some adversity about how to handle clutch time because it was very clear that they struggled earlier in this series and they had to sit around for.

[Tim Bontemps]

Two days and listen to how Shay.

[Brian Windhorst]

Giltis Alexander was 0 of 7 and all that and they found themselves in a clutch time game. However it got there, it was a clutch time game and the Nuggets were throwing zone and double teams at Shea and he was basically having to pass a lot and he came in the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Game with nine minutes left.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think it was a one point game. It was whatever it was, it was.

[Tim Bontemps]

One or two possession game, very close.

[Brian Windhorst]

And Shay won the day going down the stretch. He will not be putting that game.

[Tim Bontemps]

In his career highlights. He's probably had 200 games where he's.

[Brian Windhorst]

Had better fourth quarters, but he delivered what the Thunder needed and it was an absolute mud game. Street fight, every loose ball was nasty, very little skill on display. But McMahon, he did what he had to do. He scored, I think nine points in the fourth and got the Thunder to 2 2, which was all that matters.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, and Shea did not have a bucket in the second half. He had a few free throws but not a bucket in the second half until there was 436 remaining. He was finally able to kind of slither through a crack in the defense, which we all know he's great at. But the Nuggets have done an amazing job defending him schematically and just from an individual effort standpoint, but he's finally able to slip through. Crack, Boom. Hit the little, you know, floater, Almost a layup, 5 second violation for the Nuggets, like coming out of a timeout there. Boom. Hits a turnaround, then you know, a little over two minutes left, kind of hit a, a dagger layup. So we had three buckets in crunch time that equaled the Thunder team's entire total in crunch time of their two losses in this series. The whole reason that this series is competitive is because the Thunder struggled so much in crunch time in Game 1, which they collapsed in Game 3 when they had. They scored two points in overtime after, you know, blowing a lead down to stretch and look, give the Nuggets credit defensively. Obviously Aaron Gordon's hit some huge shots, all that kind of stuff, but yeah, that was big. Oklahoma City's depth. You know, people talk about depth doesn't matter during the playoffs and you know, the rotations get tightened up. Oklahoma City's depth was also huge in this game. And on a night where damn near everybody on both teams couldn't buy a bucket, Aaron Wiggins hit some huge shots. Kayson Wallace, who was playing a lot in this game in part because Lou Dort was not only struggling to make shots, but was not being guarded. Case Wallace has some big shots. Alex Caruso, those three guys getting double figures off the bench and is what kind of got allowed the Thunder to regain the lead in the fourth quarter. And man, Joker doesn't want to talk about fatigue, but fellas, seven games in 13 days for the Nuggets, this one being a very quick turnaround from a late tip Friday night that went in overtime to the early tip prime time in Serbia, early afternoon tip today. So what, I don't know what, 38 hours later, whatever the hell the math is, dude, this, this was the ugliest first quarter of basketball I've ever seen an NBA playoff game. They combined for 25 points. The Nuggets scored eight points in the first quarter. These two teams combined to miss 32 of their first 33 three pointers. This was a hideous basketball game that was just competitive down the stretch.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, I mean, I think Brian calling it a game that was in the mud is a perfect way to describe it. I mean, these were two teams that look tired, that look like they played like you said, 36 hours after an overtime game at altitude. There was no legs on either side. You saw that in the jumpers for everybody. Jumpers were all over the place. That's what happens when you got tired legs. And in a game like that you just need to find a way to pull it out. Especially when you're a Thunder team that saw that early disaster even more disastrous offense from Denver completely flip around. Denver takes the lead, looks like they're going to pull the game away. You mentioned the depth Aaron Wiggins and Casen Wallace at back to back threes early in the fourth quarter. Immediately get them back in touch distance. Then they bring Shay in and like you said, wasn't a pretty game from Shea. Stat line wasn't perfect but he made the plays that mattered late. He made sure they got the win. And as he said after the game 00 first of two wins. They got two games at home to get home court advantage back. And with the deeper younger team you have to give the edge to the Thunder going forward in the series just because of the fact that as you said Denver's coming off the seven game series. They look tired. Joker 2 for 7 in the fourth quarter, 1 for 4 from the foul line. He looked tired. The Nuggets as a team look tired. And you've got to think as this thing continues to be every other day for the rest of this week, that feels like an edge for the Thunder. And this game felt like to me that when that fourth quarter started and the Nuggets were winning, I mean you were there McMahon. I don't know what you thought. I thought this was the series today. If Denver could find a way to get this game at home. I didn't think jokic was losing three in a row. I feel like now that it's 2:2. I'm not certainly not counting Denver out but I think the Thunder will find a way to get two of these next three.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't think, I don't think Jokic is tired. I think he's exhausted.

[Zach Lowe]

And, and look let's, let's also I agree with you and part of the reason he's he's exhausted. He had to bang with Va Zubots for seven games. Now he's dealing with Isaiah Hardenstein. Then they're bringing Jaylen Williams, Jay Will who's just look if if they whistle for fouls whoopy do he's going to play 12 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 max. Like okay. And they're playing physical as hell with them they're swarming all around that. Honestly, like I'm, I'm baffled that in game one, Chet Holmgren spent the most time on Joker as the primary defender. I think if they just had Hartenstein start off on him and J will come in on them, that this rotation, I think this is 3:1 okc with a chance to close it out in game five.

[Brian Windhorst]

So you're going to see a lot of stats about Jokic's last three games. Bad shooting.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm not calling a three, I'm calling it seven.

[Brian Windhorst]

Because I'm going all the way back to Games 5, 6 and 7 of the Clippers series where I felt he was off. And this is a guy who over the last three playoffs has shot 56% from the field. Okay, efficiency master in these seven games. And so I, I, I want, the reason I'm going to seven is I, I, it's a bigger sample size for me. He's shooting 40%.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, well and, and in these three he's shooting 33.3. It's the worst three game shooting stretch of his career.

[Brian Windhorst]

Right. But I, I got that. Yeah, you're going to see that 10,000 places tomorrow. I'm saying look at the last seven games, right. He, it's, he hasn't had a bad six days. He's had a bad 15 days. He's shooting 26% on threes in there. And I'm going to tell you something else.

[Tim Bontemps]

Two other things I think you're going to see.

[Brian Windhorst]

This is a guy who shoots awesome at the foul line.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's never had a season where he.

[Brian Windhorst]

Shot under 80% at the foul line. Last year in the playoffs he shot.

[Tim Bontemps]

90% at the foul line. He's shooting 75%.

[Zach Lowe]

So he's, so his huge misses in the fourth quarter today, maybe the biggest misses of the game were at the free throw line.

[Brian Windhorst]

I think he's exhausted. He's averaging five turnovers a game. I think he's exhausted. Now I know that his exhausted doesn't look like the average player is exhausted. They're guys, they're playing six players. I mean Peyton, Peyton Watson's barely playing well.

[Bobby Marks]

Also, remember we're talking about a guy who was carrying this team all season. Jamal Murray, banged up in another lineup at times. Aaron Gordon missed 30 games. Like they have had injuries throughout the year. And Jokic himself has had some injuries which he typically hasn't had and has played through stuff and has been unbelievable all season. Right. And like, I think it's a cumulative effect of all of that stuff. And we even talked about it watching that Nuggets Clipper series that felt like a conference semifinal. And the Thunder on the other side swept the Grizzlies. And we're chilling and they still look tired playing these guys. Right? These games are physical.

[Tim Bontemps]

Career high.

[Brian Windhorst]

37 minutes a game this year.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, I mean these, these games are physical slug fests. The last series was a physical slug fest. He's banging on his on Zubots the whole series, right? Like he's having to deal with him the whole time. Like it's just a. It's just a heavy, heavy load. And even in this series he's got, like you said, McMahon, he's got Hart, shine and Chat Holmgren both on him just making life difficult. He's got to work for every shot. They've got Dort banging on it like.

[Zach Lowe]

Jason Williams coming in, just like size, depth and size.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's. It's nice to have.

[Zach Lowe]

Well and then you've got guys, you got your help defenders, you know, obviously chats a lot of times that kind of backline help defender. But you've got Caruso swarming in. You got Kayson, Wallace, you know, Jaylen Williams, J J Dub. These guys that are just great hands, great like active that I don't even call them helped. Like to me when the Thunderson a second guy, it's not even help defense, it's harassed defense.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

And this like as bad as Joker's shooting has been. And again 15 to 29 in game one, which by his is still subpar by his standards. He's 21 of 63 in the last few games. And there's some heaves in there, including one at the fourth quarter buzzer. He's just out of habit when they're down 5 today. But still like he can't, he can't buy a jumper right now. And then he's so good at those touch baskets. Like he brought up a little hook that he had. Couldn't get that to go down. Just doesn't have that same touch right now. The most glaring Joker offensive stat to me right now in this series is assist turnover ratio. 19 assists, 23 turnovers.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, you never see that.

[Zach Lowe]

Remarkably low assist, extraordinarily high turnovers.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm going to give you a couple stats here that just explain this encapsulation perfectly.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Nuggets had 20 points in the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Paint today, so forget about the fact that your legs are dead, okay, for your jumpers.

[Tim Bontemps]

20 points in the paint. That is the lowest the Nuggets have.

[Brian Windhorst]

Had in any game for 15 years.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, Joker gets 20 the paint in a lot of games.

[Bobby Marks]

This is a team that's had an elite offense, not shooting threes all season for the last couple seasons.

[Brian Windhorst]

And now I'm going to tell you this, they shot 45 threes today. The most they've ever shot in a playoff game in franchise history. So here we have a team that is dragging ass, can't get just not even able to get into the paint.

[Tim Bontemps]

And they're bailing out the Thunder by.

[Brian Windhorst]

Just hoisting threes and those, those and.

[Zach Lowe]

They, they missed their first 16 threes. And I'm telling you, at least three or four of them airballs.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, well, and by the way, speaking of that, I think it, you know, you could say some stuff about Mark Dangalt and the way he coached this game. The zone offense for the Thunder was not exactly great at times. There's a lot of like one pass and shoot possessions. But it took some stones down 2:1 in the series to not play Lou Dort in the fourth quarter of this game. He shouldn't have played Lou Dort in the fourth quarter of this game. They were leaving him wide open, letting him shoot the ball. He couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And he goes to Case and Wallace, he goes to Aaron Wiggins, he goes to Caruso. Those guys all made huge plays. Dort doesn't play the whole fourth quarter. It's a big part of why they won the game.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, those two guys not only were double figure scores, but plus minus Caruso plus 12, Case and Wallace plus 12, Wiggins plus 14. Yeah, it was those, it was that depth and those dudes that got him in position to win. And then Shea was able to close the door.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, for sure. It was just a big thing for him to do that because that, it would be very easy to say, hey, we're in trouble. We're going to go with the guys that got us it. I don't think they would have won if they'd done that.

[Zach Lowe]

By the way, as poorly as Lou shot the ball and he was 2 of 10 from the floor and from 3 point range, all the shots were threes. They're not guarding him as poor as he shot it. He was the only Thunder starter to hit a three pointer today. Shay.005, Jalen Williams, who had a really rough game.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Thunder bench won him the game. The bench scoring was 35 to 8. And part of the reason, part of the reason is the Nuggets don't play anybody well.

[Zach Lowe]

And also another part of the reason is Russ was awful today. Six points, 2 of 12 fouled out, had four fouls in the fourth quarter was a huge reason that the Thunder were in the bonus in the fourth quarter with six and a half minutes to go. Just was, was out of control. And like this was a really, it was a, it was a bad rust game. Really bad rust game. And, and like you said, he's basically the only guy they play off the bench pays. Peyton Watson played nine minutes and then they dusted Julian Strother off for five minutes today.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I'm not counting it. I'm saying they're playing six and a half. Basically.

[Zach Lowe]

You're right.

[Brian Windhorst]

Look, I'm not putting anything past Joker Tuesday. He could come in and look fresh.

[Tim Bontemps]

As a daisy in Oklahoma City.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm just telling you, I know that when I begin talking to the producers for First Take tomorrow, they're going to.

[Zach Lowe]

Be saying when you sleep, update.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, get up.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'll be up at 3:45am I'm in LA.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, wow, dedication.

[Brian Windhorst]

I was with Bontemps yesterday in New York.

[Zach Lowe]

Now I'm in a wind travel update.

[Bobby Marks]

That's really tough. A really tough life. It's a really tough life that he's got.

[Zach Lowe]

Honestly, it is pretty tough. But go on.

[Bobby Marks]

I will just, I will hold on. Let Wendy finish.

[Zach Lowe]

I interrupted him so rudely.

[Brian Windhorst]

It was like six flights that left at Newark today and I luckily it was on one of them, so I wouldn't put anything past him. But while there's going to be like.

[Tim Bontemps]

This, is this a referendum game on.

[Brian Windhorst]

The MVP race and everything like that? Because you know that mvp, they're going to announce the schedule coming up and I'm thinking it's coming this week, right?

[Bobby Marks]

It certainly should be all NBA and MVP should be this week.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm, it's going to be boring, but I'm just going to say Jokic is tired.

[Zach Lowe]

He is. And, and, and honestly, Shea has not had Efficiency can be a tough thing to hold up as a standard in the playoffs when they these things, it's just gritty and grimy. But Shea, by his standards has had two good performances in the playoffs.

[Brian Windhorst]

Two, he's, he's had like four games where he shot under 40%. I think three or four games, I mean that just doesn't happen.

[Zach Lowe]

And again today it was a real struggle for him and that zone is really giving him problems. It's, in some ways it's almost a box and one on him and he's, he's just not, he's so good at slithering into the cracks of the defense. He just hasn't been able to do that until it was crunch time. And unlike game one and game three, Shea got it done with a game on the line today.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, when you were at game five of this round last year in Oklahoma City and it was two two and an all time great player was on the other side coming into Oklahoma City just like now, right? And Oklahoma City couldn't get it done. They lost series in six games. Safe to say that they better win this game at home in game five. You do not want to be if you're the Thunder, it's very easy to say, but you do not want to be down three, two, going back to Denver with this guy having a chance to close series out on you because I feel pretty confident if they are able to find a way to win game five, Nicole Yach ain't gonna have a bad game in that Game six doesn't mean the Thunder can't win. But if he's gonna, I mean, I'm gonna count on that guy to summon it in a chance to close the series out. So they'd be very advised to take care of home.

[Zach Lowe]

The miracle of the last few games is in the worst shooting stretch of Joker's career, the Nuggets were able to salvage one win.

[Bobby Marks]

I was just gonna say we haven't talked about him one second this whole time, but we should shout out Aaron Gordon, who continues to be on.

[Brian Windhorst]

He's having the best playoffs of his career and he was a defining player for them when they won the title two years ago. Even with that on his resume, he's.

[Zach Lowe]

Hit two game winners and another OT forcing shot in the last 30 seconds of the fourth quarter.

[Bobby Marks]

And he's, and he's a big part of what's given Shea trouble.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he's out there smothering Shea like a lot more.

[Zach Lowe]

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[Brian Windhorst]

All right, Cavs Corner oh boy. Pacers Lane right Now again, yeah, Cav's corner.

[Zach Lowe]

There's some boarded up windows right now, baby.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's going to be a lot of focus on Monday and Tuesday about, you know, the 64 win Cavs, you know, failing and whatnot, which we will discuss in a second. But I do not want to short.

[Tim Bontemps]

Shrift the Indiana pacers, who since January.

[Brian Windhorst]

1 are now 41 and 16 and who came out in this game and crushed the Cavs.

[Tim Bontemps]

To me, this is a series.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's been two things about this series. One has been the Cavs injuries, but whatever.

[Zach Lowe]

And to be continued on that one, we'll get there.

[Brian Windhorst]

Two has been the Cavs or two has been the who wins the pace of play. The Pacers have controlled the pace of.

[Tim Bontemps]

Play in three of the four games.

[Brian Windhorst]

In game three, the Cavs threw his own defense out there. They slowed Indiana down 104 points in that game for Indiana.

[Tim Bontemps]

You could tell from the opening tip.

[Brian Windhorst]

Off the Pacers were like, I don't know who's going to win, but we're going to play our speed. And they totally impose their will of the pace of play.

[Tim Bontemps]

And that is their strategy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Their strategy is to play faster than.

[Tim Bontemps]

You want to play.

[Brian Windhorst]

Their strategy is to wear you out. Their strategy is to play physical and rough and hard and it's annoying if you're the opponent and it's working.

[Zach Lowe]

Dude, they, they scored 80 points in the first half. They more than doubled up the Cavaliers. They scored more points in the first half than the Nuggets and Thunder combined to score in the first half of the game that I covered here in Denver.

[Tim Bontemps]

And by the way, Halliburton Hallibur and had 11 points. It wasn't like he had 40.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, he didn't. Certainly didn't need to. And you, you could see from the opening tip of the game that the Cavs are totally on tilt. They, Kenny Atkinson has talked a lot about the physicality in the series over the first couple of games. They look like a team that couldn't handle it. Max Druce, 90 seconds into the game is getting into it with Pascal Siakam for really no reason. You see, I know obviously Benedict Matheran got a jacket, but no, but I'm just relax. My point, you can talk about it later. My point is if you watch how the whole first half played out, the Cavs, it wasn't just that the Pacers were playing well. The Cavs were completely out of sorts.

[Tim Bontemps]

Totally agree.

[Bobby Marks]

From jump street. And they didn't look mentally in the game from the beginning. And that to the point, it's a total credit to the Pacers for the way they have physically worn them down as the series has gone on. Even in the fourth quarter of game three, when they're up in the game, you know, the, the Pacers still got back in the game, were physical, made him uncomfortable. It's been the theme of the series the first four games.

[Brian Windhorst]

Regardless of the injuries, the Cavs were not mentally strong in this game, period. The Pacers were mentally a rock in this game.

[Tim Bontemps]

All right.

[Brian Windhorst]

The most important thing I think, coming out of this game, however, is the health status of Donovan Mitchell.

[Bobby Marks]

Not great.

[Brian Windhorst]

So he was warming up for the second half and there's footage of it. It's TNT footage from the camera that's in the, it's in the backboard. And he's out there early. He's, you know, he's one of the.

[Tim Bontemps]

First players out there and he goes to like, rise up to take a.

[Brian Windhorst]

Three pointer and he stops himself and goes down, like crouches down and starts.

[Tim Bontemps]

You know, grabbing his leg and he walks off and never comes back. He's having an MRI on Monday.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Cavs reported to be a left ankle injury. So I am not in position to dispute that. I am just saying that he never.

[Bobby Marks]

Got off the ground and he'd been dealing with left calf issues for a while.

[Brian Windhorst]

He'd been dealing with left calf issues throughout the, throughout the series. And, you know, this happened last year. He had to play a lot of extra hard minutes in the early part of the playoff games. Started having left calf issues, tweaked it.

[Tim Bontemps]

In the middle of the series against.

[Brian Windhorst]

The, what was the second round series against the Boston Celtics.

[Tim Bontemps]

Missed the last two games in the.

[Brian Windhorst]

In this series, he has had to.

[Tim Bontemps]

Carry an enormous load.

[Brian Windhorst]

Now he is playing amazing. He came in averaging over 40 points.

[Tim Bontemps]

A game in the series. He had 33 in game one, 48.

[Brian Windhorst]

In game two, 43 in game three.

[Tim Bontemps]

He doesn't have crazy minutes. He hasn't played more than 37 minutes. But they're hard minutes. Hard minutes. He's, you know, because Garland's been out, he's had to play point guard.

[Brian Windhorst]

And I don't look if he can't play, you know, if you're trying to construct some sort of three round comeback. Yeah, wrap it up, Garland.

[Bobby Marks]

Especially with Darius Garland not looking right at all.

[Brian Windhorst]

Garland's playing with some modified shoe to.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hold his toe in place.

[Zach Lowe]

Look, the Cavs are, if they pull off a comeback in the series, it's going to be miraculous. And, and the thing that's really tough is a second round exit for the Cavaliers this season is a massive disappointment. They played themselves into much, much higher expectations than they had entering the season. So if they get waxed in the second round, if they get booted in five games, even six games, whatever, then it is a huge, huge disappointment where that, you know, I not like none of us thought they were contenders coming into the season, but then you have to like, you know, you're watching them and their best record in the east and you know, they changed, they raised the bar for themselves.

[Brian Windhorst]

So look, they are now facing potentially.

[Tim Bontemps]

All three of their all stars getting.

[Brian Windhorst]

Hurt and in the series. So it's a. As, as you know, they had one of the worst injury runs in 2015 finals, 2015 playoffs where Kevin Love and.

[Tim Bontemps]

Kyrie Irving were knocked out.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, Irving not until the finals. But you know, that is horrendous injury luck. And by the way, the Cavs protected those guys throughout the whole year. Everybody pretty much had their career lows in minutes. So you know, like, it's not like.

[Tim Bontemps]

They were, they were working him out through the year.

[Bobby Marks]

And that's just, I mean, at the same, at the same time, Evan, you know, well, look, Evan Mobley had an ankle sprain and miss one game and you know, Darius Garland has missed a couple of games with this toe injury. Yes. But they were a 64 win team that talked all year about their depth and how they were playing through the year. And it doesn't excuse the fact that they've been fairly handled throughout the first four games of the series.

[Tim Bontemps]

Right.

[Brian Windhorst]

So let me just say this. As you know, in any series, teams that win the championship, go on the road and get slapped in an individual one off playoff game.

[Zach Lowe]

Yep.

[Brian Windhorst]

Whether you lose by 85 points or.

[Tim Bontemps]

You lose by 15 points, you get blown out.

[Brian Windhorst]

It happens. Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

Happened in the happen of the Nuggets in Game 2. They won Game 3.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Pacers were brilliant in this game.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Cavs were horrible.

[Brian Windhorst]

You put those two things together, that's why you get this lopsided.

[Tim Bontemps]

The reason why the Cavs are down.

[Brian Windhorst]

Three one in the series is because they botched game two.

[Zach Lowe]

Yep.

[Brian Windhorst]

And the Pacers made some incredible plays down the stretch, particularly Halliburton.

[Tim Bontemps]

The step back three was an absolute dagger's dagger.

[Zach Lowe]

The host of the Big balls dance.

[Brian Windhorst]

They just didn't have it in them. Joe Dumars left and they were like, you know what, that's fine.

[Zach Lowe]

Listen, Papa Halliburton, stand in front of the tv waving that towel. I mean, it was a hell of a look.

[Brian Windhorst]

All.

[Bobby Marks]

All of this is elementary, though, right? It doesn't really matter. The bottom line is they're down 3. 1, and they're on the verge of losing the series and having their season end way early. And as Tim said, it would be a massive disappointment. You just have to call it like it is. Here's a stat for you. There are 28 teams in the history of the league that have won at least 64 games. The Cavs are one of them, so there's 27 others. Two of those teams didn't get out of the second round of the playoffs.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I'm gonna.

[Bobby Marks]

Hold on.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm gonna stop you.

[Zach Lowe]

Trivia time. Trivia time.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, you can't discount the fact that they have. Well, we'll talk about a second. I want to stop.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, you.

[Brian Windhorst]

You can't. You have.

[Tim Bontemps]

You have four. Four of their core players injured.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, the Cavs corner excuse maker. Hold on.

[Brian Windhorst]

Come on, come on. You can't compare. Historically, those teams didn't have all these injuries.

[Zach Lowe]

Excuses. Next first. Excuses. Next. 67 win Mavs that lost to. Lost to the we believe Warriors. And then the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Did Dirk get hurt and miss games in that series?

[Tim Bontemps]

I can't remember.

[Bobby Marks]

Tim, you were at. You were at this. You were at this team's demise. The other team, both of them.

[Zach Lowe]

67 win Mavs. Yeah, I was gonna say this. 2011 spurs, they didn't win that many games.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, it was this. It was the 60 win spurs when Kawhi sprained his ankle.

[Zach Lowe]

No, no, I wasn't at that.

[Bobby Marks]

They lost in the conference finals.

[Brian Windhorst]

Oh, that's right.

[Bobby Marks]

A lot of teams lost in the conference finals.

[Zach Lowe]

I was. Teams demise. This was in the. Was in the conference semifinals recent years. Golly, I'm getting old.

[Bobby Marks]

So I could give you one more hint, but you will then know the answer.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, give me one more hint. Oh, the Mav. I wasn't at that.

[Bobby Marks]

No, no, the Mavs won the game.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, duh. Yeah, the. The. Yeah, you talk about a. A playoff debacle. Game seven in Phoenix. That's right.

[Bobby Marks]

Correct. The 20 that. That Suns team.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I forgot that son's team was.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, they were in.

[Tim Bontemps]

They were.

[Brian Windhorst]

There was allegedly Covid going through their team, so it might be somewhat comparable.

[Zach Lowe]

Although, listen, Wendy, you're making a bunch of excuses. Well, they lost game one at home. They got completely waxed today like they don't deserve to be.

[Tim Bontemps]

No, I don't.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm not Arguing that. I'm just saying you can't say the.

[Bobby Marks]

Guys all played today and they got obliterated.

[Zach Lowe]

They were down.

[Bobby Marks]

Let's relax.

[Zach Lowe]

Injury had nothing to do with them losing.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree.

[Tim Bontemps]

What did I just say? Anybody can get hit in one game.

[Zach Lowe]

You're giving us excuse sandwiches. Like excuse, excuse.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

Give me a break.

[Brian Windhorst]

You can't say they're one of the greatest failures in the history of all time.

[Bobby Marks]

That's not what I acknowledge.

[Tim Bontemps]

Injuries.

[Bobby Marks]

I didn't say they're one of the greatest failures of all time.

[Brian Windhorst]

I said you were basically saying they're one of the greatest stats.

[Bobby Marks]

That is a massive disappointment if they lose this series. You can have reasons why they lose the series, but it's still a massive disappointment.

[Zach Lowe]

I just got an update from Stats Williams. He says Wendy's sensitivity ratio is an all time.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, look, guys, I'm a. I'm a grade A realist. It's fine. But like, you can't. The reason that the. That the. You know, that they fell behind OT prime.

[Bobby Marks]

Let's just call a spade a spade.

[Zach Lowe]

I want to hear the.

[Bobby Marks]

No, it's fine. You were on this podcast a week ago after they annihilated the heat twice talking about the Cavs like they were.

[Zach Lowe]

Parade Marshall.

[Bobby Marks]

That's. That's my point. So you. There are reasons why they're in the position. But if you'd said a week ago that the Cavs are going to be down 3:1 in the series and will have been down 40:1 at halftime of.

[Brian Windhorst]

Game four again, I don't care if.

[Tim Bontemps]

They were down 175.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anybody can lose one game. The reason that they're off in the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Series is they are now looking at.

[Brian Windhorst]

Having three if Don. Okay. If Donovan comes back and looks fresh.

[Tim Bontemps]

As a daisy in game five, fine.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't know if he's playing in game five. And go find the stat on three All Stars missing games in the series and how those teams did.

[Zach Lowe]

I think the only daisy reference for the Cavaliers is they're soon going to be pushing them up.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that may be true.

[Bobby Marks]

No one, we aren't. Tim and I are not sitting here saying that the Cavs should nuke the franchise if they lose the series. It's also a very disappointing ending to the season and not what this team expected when the playoffs started. They were expecting to be hosting game one of the conference finals, clearly.

[Brian Windhorst]

But I'm going to tell you something.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Pacers.

[Brian Windhorst]

You guys know I came back from France talking about the Pacers and you guys know and I'm telling you the CAVS another discovery.

[Bobby Marks]

McMahon added to the list.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm. You know the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Even if the Cavs.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'm gonna tell you this.

[Tim Bontemps]

Even if the Cavs were full strength.

[Brian Windhorst]

They were going to have their hands full. I think this sucker Pacers are legit.

[Zach Lowe]

They are deep. They've got top end talent. You know, I don't know if Halliburton. I don't know what is he. Is he a top. He's a top 15 player in the league, dude. They've got great role players. They have great role players. Miles Turner is a great role player. Nim Hard tonight.

[Brian Windhorst]

Tonight they're bigs Siakam Turner and Obi Toppin. Obi Toppins combo forward. But he was essentially plays back up big for them. They were like 25 of 37 for 60 something points. Like they crushed.

[Zach Lowe]

Hey, Siakam has been a great trade for them to give them another all star caliber player. And you know what? Carlisle can coach. He can coach his ass off. You know I don't. He's not a guy you want to invite to your birthday party. But the man can coach him.

[Brian Windhorst]

I'll invite him to my birthday party. I don't have birthday parties.

[Bobby Marks]

But.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, he didn't show up for the. The wonder boy book party.

[Brian Windhorst]

I understand.

[Bobby Marks]

Let's hope Mitchell self. No, go ahead.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. What.

[Brian Windhorst]

What is your.

[Tim Bontemps]

What is your more amazing.

[Brian Windhorst]

You know, I'll let. I'll let.

[Tim Bontemps]

Bontemps.

[Brian Windhorst]

BonTemps. What is McMahon's not exactly like an immersive journalist. But what is McMahon's.

[Bobby Marks]

What is that supposed to be?

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he's not like.

[Tim Bontemps]

He doesn't do like flowery features where.

[Brian Windhorst]

He like, you know. But what is more what is the.

[Tim Bontemps]

Crazier thing that McMahon did for a story pedicure with Rudy Gobert or. Or letting Rick Carlisle fly him in.

[Brian Windhorst]

His little teeny Cessna plane.

[Zach Lowe]

That was pretty damn immersive.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was very immersive. I'm saying you're not known as being.

[Brian Windhorst]

An immersive journalist and that here are two events I'm known for.

[Bobby Marks]

This on record.

[Zach Lowe]

My. My charm and good looks and versatility.

[Bobby Marks]

Let's put this on the record. Windhorst refuses to let anybody say anything negative about the Cavs when they're about to potentially lose in the second half.

[Brian Windhorst]

Nope.

[Bobby Marks]

Turns around with not a one handed backhand slap at McMahon but a two handed backhand slap.

[Zach Lowe]

Because I said he was the old.

[Brian Windhorst]

You were clearing your throat to call him an all time failure. And I just wasn't. No, absolutely were.

[Zach Lowe]

Have I. Have I told you the the Rick Carlisle hot tub story from that trip? I stayed at Rick's place.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let's hear it.

[Bobby Marks]

But I don't think it's on the podcast.

[Zach Lowe]

I stayed at Rick's place on that trip. He's got a place and I won't say exactly where, but he's got a place, beautiful spot in South Carolina and his wife and daughter were back home. So it's just me and Rick for a couple nights at his place. And there's like a clubhouse. And so he wanted to go. He wanted to go like in the hot tub of the clubhouse. I'm like Rick, I didn't, I didn't pack a bathing suit. Rick gave me a bathing suit. He assured me that it was there was, it was unused, it was new. But they were just hanging out in the hot tub, Me and Rick Carlisle. Not awkward at all.

[Bobby Marks]

Not an immersive journalist at all though.

[Zach Lowe]

He was literally immersed underneath the water. I immersed myself under the water.

[Bobby Marks]

I just wanted said for the record, I do not think the Cavs would be an all time disappointment if they lose in the second round of the playoffs with injuries. It is, however, a massive disappointment and it is worth pointing out that they were 150 led wire to wire in the east all year, had visions of being an NBA Finals team, and are on the verge of getting punked in the second round of the playoffs. This is not.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, two things can be true. They run into a team that's awesome, that's a bad matchup and they've had.

[Zach Lowe]

Miserable injury for Listen, Today was the worst showing by a Northeast Ohio franchise since you put that dang first pitch in the dirt at the Akron Rubber Ducks game. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

When you're on a business trip, you know what goes completely off the rails?

[Tim Bontemps]

Your workout routine. Especially when you book a hotel that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Doesn'T have a gym. So what ends up happening is you do a few push ups and sit.

[Tim Bontemps]

Ups in your room, run around the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Block or just skip it entirely.

[Tim Bontemps]

Lame.

[Brian Windhorst]

If you just stay at A La.

[Tim Bontemps]

Quinta by Wyndham, you'll discover there's a fully equipped fitness center at every location.

[Brian Windhorst]

Now you can wake up and power.

[Tim Bontemps]

Your buys and tries right away or de stress with some cardio. The choice is yours.

[Brian Windhorst]

Tonight La Quinta.

[Tim Bontemps]

Tomorrow you shine.

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[Brian Windhorst]

All right, we could end up having.

[Tim Bontemps]

Three of the same four conference finals.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, you know, the Celtics are still behind. We'll see with that. We'll talk about that.

[Zach Lowe]

Guaranteed four straight.

[Brian Windhorst]

Did he guarantee it?

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't think he guaranteed it.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, he said it with a lot of confidence. You know how Bond tips does.

[Brian Windhorst]

Of all the. Of all the confident things Bon Thomps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Has ever said, this one is not.

[Brian Windhorst]

In the top 10. I mean, like, it's not like an outrageous statement.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, look, if you. I mean, look, if you watch game three, I mean, sitting there watching game three, it just remains unbelievable that the Knicks are up to one in the series because the Celtics have dominated. They've played, what, seven games? So they played 14 halves, and the Celtics have dominated 12 or 13 of that.

[Brian Windhorst]

Let's talk about that right now. Bon Temps and I were at the Garden on Saturday.

[Tim Bontemps]

What percentage of seats do you think.

[Brian Windhorst]

Was filled at 328?

[Bobby Marks]

99.9? I'll just assume there was one that was open.

[Zach Lowe]

But did they give away free T shirts?

[Brian Windhorst]

They did, but I don't think many Knicks fans are wearing them.

[Zach Lowe]

And like okc, the fits are too good up in New York. Go on.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Garden fans were so into it. I think my favorite moment of the whole day was when Luke Cornett fouled Mitchell Robinson purposely. And it was like borderline. It was an offensive rebound. Robinson got the offensive rebound, which he's been doing all series, and he was kind of. It looked like he might go back up with it. And Cornett fouled him and then ran over to the referees and said, no, he was shooting. And after, after Mitch had, like, gone like his first six and throwing up a pretty bad airball. This is one of the things about going to games of the Garden. The crowd in the lower deck, around the, around that end of the court where Robinson was at the line, stood up and started like, cheering him and like encouraging him on. Like, you can do it, Mitch.

[Tim Bontemps]

You can do it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, they were, they wanted it so bad and they were not cynical at all. You know, there was not a cynical thing.

[Tim Bontemps]

It was not a Bronx cheerleader.

[Brian Windhorst]

They were truly trying to uplift him. And then, you know, it started to spread and more and more people got up, you know, saying it. And so it just showed you how.

[Tim Bontemps]

Invested and how badly those fans wanted it.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, you know, this was an afternoon game on a weekend. Like, this is not, you know, everybody in their seats at 8:00. Like, no, it was. And, and, and the Celtics tore their hearts out. They were never, they were never in the game.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, I mean, look, if the Celtics, the Celtics, The Celtics are 15 points better than them. They've been 15 points better than them for seven games. The, the question is if the Knicks, can the Knicks have another game in the series or two or three where it's. They can make it a 5.5 minutes to go. If they can do that, they'll give themselves a chance because they operate far better in the clutch than the Celtics do for the obvious reason that Jalen Brunson was the clutch player of the year for a reason. And Jason Tatum in particular has struggled in those spots a lot. But if, but there's really no way the Knicks can blow the Celtics out. And the Celtics have routinely blown the knicks out for seven games. They've led by 20 in every game in the series. And they're down 2 to 1.

[Zach Lowe]

Like, and when you say in the series, you mean the regular season series plus the playoffs?

[Bobby Marks]

Yes. Like, they've, you know, the, the last game, I don't know if they led by 20, but they, you know, it ended up being kind of close late and then it wasn't. But like, there's been very little reason to believe the Knicks had a chance to beat them all season, which is why everyone in New York was so fired up after the way the first two games went, because it was like, holy cow, this is the team that they didn't think they could beat. They're somehow up 20 in the series. Maybe they can find a way to beat them.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, and Macau Bridge is making game winning defensive plays.

[Bobby Marks]

Yes.

[Zach Lowe]

You know that, that was like, okay, that's the guy that, that's the guy that we traded five.

[Brian Windhorst]

So here's the thing.

[Tim Bontemps]

Jalen Brunson and Jayson Tatum are Still in slumps.

[Brian Windhorst]

They did not break out of their slumps on Saturday.

[Tim Bontemps]

It may have looked like it because.

[Brian Windhorst]

They won by 25, but the collectively.

[Tim Bontemps]

They shot I think 15 of 37 in the series. Jaylen Brown is shooting 21% on threes still and Tatum is overall still shooting.

[Brian Windhorst]

32% and 34 or 35% on threes. They are not out of their slumps. That was, you know, Peyton Pritchard was awesome. He had one of the great, best playoff game of his career.

[Bobby Marks]

Showed why he was a deserving six man of the year winner.

[Brian Windhorst]

Talked to him in the locker room.

[Bobby Marks]

For them all season.

[Brian Windhorst]

Talked to him in the locker room after the game. And I said, because his first time I actually talked to him face to face since he won the award. I congratulated him on winning the award and said, man, what would you have said if I told you two? Because, you know, two years ago he didn't.

[Tim Bontemps]

He wasn't playing.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, he literally wanted to be traded.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, he was.

[Zach Lowe]

I mean, even last year in the finals, like he only played when it was time to hit a 45 footer at a quarter buzzer, which by the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Way, he made a buzzer beater. It was just a two pointer, but he made a buzzer beater on Saturday. But he's like, yeah, he's like, you know, I never would have believed. He's like, you know, but he's like, I just gotta, I just gotta keep focusing. I go, it's okay. I'm just, I'm just saying, two years ago I wouldn't have believed that you would have had a 25 point game in the garden and you would be six man of the year. So here's the reality, here's the reality from the Knicks standpoint. Jalen Brunson's not having a good series. He had awesome clutch time in games one, in game two and wouldn't have.

[Tim Bontemps]

Another guy with, with the ball in his hands. But he is shooting 38% in the series.

[Brian Windhorst]

He is. The Knicks or the Celtics are keeping him off the foul line.

[Tim Bontemps]

He averaged nine free throws a game. In the Detroit series, he's averaging six free throws a game.

[Brian Windhorst]

It doesn't sound like that, that big of a difference. But they're, you know, they're doing a.

[Tim Bontemps]

Good job because, you know he's trying.

[Brian Windhorst]

To get to that line. So he's, you know, he. They're averaging in, in regulation because, you know, they did get one overtime game, but looking in regulation, they're averaging 95 points a game.

[Tim Bontemps]

In the three, three games in regulation.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's not getting it done. Towns hurt his finger on his left.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hand or hurt his hand, his left hand. He was 5 of 19.

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't. He's not on the injury report. So he's going to play on Monday in game four, but I don't know where he's going to be. OG Anunoby basically had an awesome game.

[Tim Bontemps]

One and hasn't been seen on the offensive end since. And the Celtics are fouling the heck.

[Brian Windhorst]

Out of Mitchell Robinson and It's working.

[Tim Bontemps]

He's 7 of 23 at the line. He is very important to them because.

[Brian Windhorst]

He'S creating extra possessions left and right. But the hack of Mitch is working because they're getting a lot of empty possessions. So I hate to say that they.

[Tim Bontemps]

Need Jalen to deliver, but they need Jalen to deliver if they're going to win game four.

[Brian Windhorst]

And in my view, if they don't win game four, I don't see him, I don't see any hope they win game four. Now we're, now we're cooking and Jalen.

[Tim Bontemps]

Could have a 40 point game in.

[Brian Windhorst]

Him like he is.

[Tim Bontemps]

He can do it and he is due.

[Brian Windhorst]

But they need look again.

[Bobby Marks]

They're up to one in the series in over seven games. They've been obliterated by the Knicks this year, by the Celtics this season. Like you would certainly bet on the Celtics winning three more ahead of the Knicks winning two more like. So we'll see. I'm with you. The Knicks I think have to win this game for on Monday and we'll see if they can. But it, it really is just a matter of like can they find a way to make the game close at the end because even the first two games they were down 20 and had sort of bizarre comebacks in the game where the Celtics just stopped scoring for 8, 9 minutes at a time. So you know, they've got to show they can make it competitive for a larger stretch of the game. If they can get the ball to jam with five minutes to go, they'll take their chances. Just can they actually get through the first 43 minutes and get there with him with the ball in a one or two possession game. If they can, they're going to feel really good about their chance to pull another win out.

[Brian Windhorst]

Porzingis also, of the games looked the most animated he has so far. He had three blocks. You know, he only gave him a.

[Bobby Marks]

Lot on offense, but he was giving him some defensive presence which helped a lot.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

So the fact that he hasn't been able to give him much is, was.

[Tim Bontemps]

A, was a factor leaning.

[Brian Windhorst]

If you, if you're creating a case for the Knicks in the regular season, the games when he played he crushed the Knicks and the fact that he was basically giving him next to nothing the first two games was also a factor. So, so I don't know. I, I could, I would not take anything off the table for Jalen on Monday, but there is not an indication that it's coming.

[Zach Lowe]

So.

[Brian Windhorst]

But I think they need him. They need something to, they just need, they need, they need points because Tatum and Brown are going to play well at some point. All right. All right. So Aaron Gordon's been playing great. Another guy who sort of role player that's elevated to really be a difference maker. How about Julius Randall?

[Zach Lowe]

The only thing I'll take umbrage with is calling him multi time all star role player.

[Bobby Marks]

Multi time all of the A player.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, he's definitely taking it to another level. He's definitely.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, well, look at, have you seen his playoff stats before this year?

[Zach Lowe]

He's a guy who has not had playoff success and was having a great.

[Brian Windhorst]

Unlike somebody else in this podcast I can accept being corrected. Anyway, he's averaging 22 points and six rebounds and six assists and shooting 48% from the field and been a huge add on to Ant who's sort of been up and down in the playoffs and got Minnesota pulling out that win. You know, the, I'm not saying that.

[Tim Bontemps]

The warriors hit him with their best.

[Brian Windhorst]

Shot that they could have hit him with on Saturday, but they got a great game from Jimmy Butler and they were at home and the game could have gone either way. And it was the warriors who took it. I mean, it's the, the Wolves who took it.

[Zach Lowe]

And just to put this in perspective, Randall, during his time with the Knicks, 15 playoff games, 34.4% from the floor, 3.7 assists per game like he, he had, he'd been a very disappointing playoff player. And as you said, he's been an absolute driving force.

[Brian Windhorst]

Triple double, by the way, on Saturday.

[Zach Lowe]

Driving force in their success so far in this postseason for, for sure. And look, this whole year was a lot about kind of finding a comfort zone with Julius Randall, especially Dante, even Chinzo as well. But remember, those guys are traded like a couple days before camp and it was clunky for most of the season and then they figured it out down the stretch and that's continued in the playoffs, although, you know, they've had some, some offensive Duds. He's. He's definitely. I think it's fair to say he's been the most consistent player in the playoffs, for sure. Ant obviously has just some supernova type of performances.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, look, they. They've played very badly in two of the three games in the series, and they're up two to one. And look, Steve Kerr said everything you're supposed to say in the position he's in after game three, Right. Said, I like the formula that we had. I don't think we're that far away. I think we can get a game at home. I walked away from game three saying, these guys had to win one of these three games to get Steph a chance to be back in Game 6. A chance. It's hard to believe to me they're going to get a better chance than the one they had in game three. They got another really good game from Jonathan Kaminga. Had 30 points off the bench. I know he was really good in game two. I don't think he's doing that again in the series. Jimmy goes for 33 points. He's obviously not 100% after this tailbone thing. In the first round, they shot. They only shot 23 threes, but they hit 43% of the threes. They're playing at home, and Minnesota was bad, and he still couldn't win.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, an Ant was awful in the first half. Awful. And in the second half, he was awesome. He played every second again of a second half, and the guy had 28 points on 10 of 16 shooting. And there was, you know, I thought he did a great job of. He had a dominant scoring half without being ball hoggy. You know, there. There was one particular play with a little over three minutes left. It was a crucial time of the game where I was like. And, you know, I thought I was. I was thinking like, move the ball, move the ball. He gets out on the web lane. There's. There's two bodies on him. Kicks it to. To Randall. Randall makes the quick swing, and it's a wide open corner. Three, I believe, is Alexander Walker. When you would say Alexander Nikhil Walker. Alexander Walker. Nikhil. Whatever you. Whatever you want to call.

[Brian Windhorst]

Anyways, I'm always watching that.

[Zach Lowe]

But it was the exact kind of play that Finchy's been hammering on Ant. Like, make the right play, get off the ball, and it doesn't go down in the box. Scores anything for him. But it was a. I thought it was another example of his recent maturation.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. So I don't know. The Kaminga thing is fascinating.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, look, there's just.

[Bobby Marks]

I mean, the bottom line is the way he plays. He's got to have the ball a lot. And so if you have Stefan Jimmy, there's not really room at the end for him with one of them out. There's a role for him. He's played great the last couple games. But again, is he going to make every single shot and score 30 points like he did each the last two games? I don't think so. So maybe he will. Maybe he'll just keep doing that. But that. I came away from that one thinking that was the one the warriors had the chance to steal. And without question, they could maybe look very dumb on Monday. It would be the first time Jimmy pulled one out, pulled one out of his hat the last couple years in the playoffs. But I gotta think Minnesota is going to play better than that. And we've seen the warriors were struggling to score with Steph in these playoffs. Now they don't have him.

[Zach Lowe]

It's just.

[Bobby Marks]

It's a very big hill to climb.

[Zach Lowe]

You know what else happened in the second half? Draymond Green played a little less than 12 minutes, picked up four fouls after halftime, didn't score, bowed out of the game. You know, and in a game when they really needed him, he wasn't there for him. You know, went and watched the last however many minutes from the bench.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, he said and get a technical.

[Zach Lowe]

Only because the refs turned the other way after he fouled out. Didn't listen to him.

[Brian Windhorst]

I have a big event on Monday night. For all the teams that have not in the playoffs, this is what they've been looking for as long as they didn't trade their pick. It's the Cooper Flag Lottery in Chicago on Monday. I'll just do it this way. How about we do this? Who would you like to see win the Cooper Flag lottery?

[Bobby Marks]

Can I give more than one team?

[Tim Bontemps]

Of course.

[Bobby Marks]

I. For an NBA standpoint, I would like to see him wind up on the Eastern seaboard with either Philly, Brooklyn or Washington. Every single guy from an NBA from a bond.

[Zach Lowe]

Tim's travel standpoint.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, look, I mean, if you look at the last 20 years since LeBron got drafted, right? Every single time a player like this has been available at the top of the draft, he's gone to the Western Conference every single time. And not always at the number one pick. But Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Luka Doncic, Carl Townes, Stephen Victor, Zion Williamson, John Morant, like, go down the list, right? Every single time. One of these guys has gone to the Western Conference. It would be good at some point if one of these players got drafted by an Eastern Conference team and for no other reason than to have some sort of balance to the conferences at some point. But like, let's say our friend Will Hardy, who just got a contract extension very deservedly recently, let's say the Jazz get him. Like, sure, okay. They'll just be another ridiculous team in a couple years in the west, like, because there's already not enough playoff spots, including the play in for teams out West.

[Zach Lowe]

So I don't, I don't think there was a. I don't think the Suns deserved a chance to play the first season this year, but.

[Bobby Marks]

Okay, I'm just, I'm just saying that I watched the playing games out East. It wasn't exactly the same level, just put it that way. So, you know, I would, I would like to see him wind up out here somewhere for that reason. But it's gonna be a fascinating ladder.

[Zach Lowe]

Funniest possible outcome would be the Rockets.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Zach Lowe]

3.8 chance of being number one pick. Thanks.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Rockets and the Spurs, I would say.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, the spurs and the spurs had. Let me do math.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, the spurs would just be a fun outcome. The Rockets have funniest outcome.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, the Rockets would be fun too. You add Cooper flag to that mix. Oh, boy.

[Bobby Marks]

Oh, no, I agree. I agree. I just mean because of the fact that the Nets, I think correctly traded that pick to Houston to get control of their next two drafts back and the fact that the Suns, the team, the 26 out of 29 teams would have traded places with a year ago according to their owner, would potentially give up the number one pick in the draft by not making the play in to another Western Conference rival. Would be a hilarious turn of events.

[Zach Lowe]

You keep shot Nets in that. In that trade. That was a terrible trade. Number one, how do you not get written in there that you get the higher of the Nets or Suns pick this year? Number two, the Rockets held on to your 2027 swap. Was a terrible trade. But the spurs have a. And I will, I will give the Nets this. They didn't know that the Mavs 29 pick was going to soar in value a few months after making that deal. But the spurs between Atlanta and their own have 6.7% chance to win it. I feel like the basketball gods are not going to let Philly jump up from five like that. Sorry, man.

[Brian Windhorst]

That would be just for angst reasons. That would be amazing to see.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, the basketball I feel like the Sixers pick is going to wind up first or seven and if it finds up seventh for people, I assume people know, listen to the pod. But in case the top Sixers are the top Sixers for a reason, they keep their pick if it stays in top six. Which means two teams have to jump them to fall.

[Brian Windhorst]

The same happened.

[Bobby Marks]

It's just happened. Especially now, especially with the new rules. It's. It's a lot more fluid than it used to be and a lot flatter.

[Zach Lowe]

So as we discussed now the 64s because they got 64 chance to keep their pick.

[Bobby Marks]

Yes, but it would. It feels to me like we're either going to see it land at seven and that Thunder logo is going to pop up or they're going to jump way up into the top one or two.

[Brian Windhorst]

That would be interesting. I think it would be. So I, for interest reasons, either San Antonio or Houston winning it, although it doesn't even need. I don't even need to win it. Just either of them jumping into the top four, I think gets things very interesting, not just for who they could draft, but also as they potentially go.

[Tim Bontemps]

Into the trade market.

[Brian Windhorst]

So that is why I'm watching San Antonio and Houston. However, the team where I think Cooper Flagg might have a remarkable lane would be if Washington wins. Because. Because that's a franchise that has been.

[Tim Bontemps]

In the wilderness for a long time.

[Brian Windhorst]

And is basically a dead market right now. And if he goes there, he has the potential to create a whole.

[Bobby Marks]

Put him there. Put him on the Nets. Either one. Same thing.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, the Nets.

[Brian Windhorst]

The Nets. Karma is not really on their side. You know, the Wizards haven't had anything happened for them for decades.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, I mean.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, no, they're coming. They're coming off a buzzer beater.

[Bobby Marks]

Yes, they are. The Nets.

[Zach Lowe]

They're on a winning this pick.

[Bobby Marks]

The Nets have been playing in Brooklyn since 2012. This will be the first lottery pick the Nets have. And they have sent out picks that became Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, among others in the draft. And it was. And also the pick that became Reed Shepherd. So I believe.

[Zach Lowe]

That's crazy.

[Bobby Marks]

That was their pick that jumped up.

[Zach Lowe]

It was. They've had three top three picks.

[Bobby Marks]

None of them were theirs. Yeah. So look, if. If Cooper Flag winds up with the Wizards.

[Brian Windhorst]

So you want to go further back?

[Tim Bontemps]

They had the Dame Lillard.

[Brian Windhorst]

I know they weren't in Brooklyn yet, but they had the Dame Lillard pick. That Dame Lillard was picked with their draft pick.

[Bobby Marks]

They traded a top three protected pick Billy King said that there were three players they liked in the draft and they gave up the sixth pick and it became Dame.

[Zach Lowe]

You know, Charlotte and New Orleans would be fascinating for.

[Bobby Marks]

Not New Orleans. He can't go to New Orleans. Well, forget karma. All they do is get number one draft picks or high draft picks.

[Zach Lowe]

I agree, but it would be fascinating. I think it's, you know, what if anything happens with Zion, what if anything happens with Lamello is going to be interesting regardless. Yes, that would be a diff. An interesting element to add to those possibilities.

[Bobby Marks]

I would say Cooper's probably not going to be Victor Wembanyama, but he is one of the better prospects to come along in the last 20 years. And he's the kind of guy that any one of these teams that gets them, Utah, Charlotte, Washington, Brooklyn, any of them, it's going to change the course of the franchise that gets them. Just like look at the Spurs. Like, you could say the spurs are in a great position now. A couple of years ago, like they were kind of floating along the post. Kawhi era hadn't gone great. And they get that player and everything immediately looks different. And this guy's got a chance to be that kind of players.

[Tim Bontemps]

One of the most interesting things that.

[Brian Windhorst]

You did this year is you. And I think it was you and Pelton, but it might have been you and Bobby. I can't remember.

[Tim Bontemps]

You ranked the rebuilds.

[Bobby Marks]

It was just me.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay.

[Zach Lowe]

He wants full credit.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, no, I mean, I do lots of things with Bobby and Kevin, but this one was just me.

[Zach Lowe]

He wants full credit.

[Brian Windhorst]

You ranked the rebuilds and basically I'm looking at. You ranked them 1, you know, 1 through 10 or whatever. And basically 2 through 9. You had him ranked. But like, what the point was, like.

[Tim Bontemps]

Spurs were number one.

[Brian Windhorst]

Not because of like great player development, not because of shrewd management. You know, like they do. They do fine. Like, you know, then they drafted Castle and you know. Yeah, but they got lucky in the lottery. That's why they're number one.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, everything. And they tanked like hell to maximize their odds in.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's fine, that's fine. But like, you can tank like hell and it not go your way.

[Zach Lowe]

But you know, the spurs, this person won't win this lottery. They only win the lottery when there's a generational seven footer at the top.

[Bobby Marks]

Well, Cooper's. Cooper's pretty close to seven feet six, nine.

[Zach Lowe]

Not tall enough.

[Bobby Marks]

But I mean, look, last year Atlanta jumped from 10 to 1, right? They jumped from 10 to 1 in a draft that wasn't nearly as good. Like a lot of this stuff just comes down to dumb luck when you're rebuilding. And for all these teams, you know, again Washington is as this multi year tear down rebuild, right. They've drafted all these semi interesting to interesting young players. They've got a bunch of young guys on the team. They got better as the year went along. But if you end up with the sixth pick in the draft, it's just not the same as getting this kind of guy. So for all these teams, like how these ping pong balls bounce, going to shift the next three to five years for a lot of these teams and you know, look at Utah is a great example. Utah hired a great coach. They just extended them off after three bad years because he's proven he's a really good coach that has not had a lot to work with by design. Last year in particular, like the Jazz have to just keep trying to get a player like this. They did everything they could do to get it like you said they did. Just like San Antonio, they have the number one. Did they ever number one odds they're going to get no worse than the fifth pick in this draft. But you wind up with the fifth pick looks a hell of a lot different than you wind up with Cooper flag.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's true but they have tanked.

[Tim Bontemps]

The last two years and they got picks in the middle of the lottery.

[Bobby Marks]

And they got the ninth pick twice.

[Zach Lowe]

They've tanked in the last year and a half. That's their problem is the previous two years before this season, they waited until mid season, really go right and they.

[Bobby Marks]

Got, you know, they got the ninth pick twice.

[Tim Bontemps]

You got Hendrix.

[Zach Lowe]

I don't even remember Hendrix.

[Tim Bontemps]

Taylor Hendricks.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, they drafted Cody Williams 10th.

[Zach Lowe]

It was fun.

[Bobby Marks]

Yeah, but yeah, like that's the thing, like you just, you got to get lucky. So there's going to be a lot of teams sitting around just praying Monday night that a combination of ping pong balls, four of them lines up in their direction and none of them have a better than 14% chance to do it. Like it's, it's.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like even at 14% it's so important to get a high draft pick that it's worth going for it like that. The calculus in a lot of six circumstances says go for it even for 14% so. All right, that's enough for tonight. Thank you to Jackson. We'll be up late.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you to McMahon.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you to Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Thank you for watching and listening to the Hoop Collective.

[Brian Windhorst]

Be talking to you in a couple.

[Tim Bontemps]

Of days where we know where Cooper.

[Brian Windhorst]

Flag we're going, and we'll know just how historically terrible the Cavs playoff failure is going to be. We'll have a full package of stats.

[Zach Lowe]

For that, and Wendy will be well rested and in a good mood. Amigos.