← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Patience For Spurs & Rockets? Kawhi’s Best Season Ever? Disaster For Magic? Don’t Sleep On Charlotte
00:50:45
Hoop Collective: Patience For Spurs & Rockets? Kawhi’s Best Season Ever? Disaster For Magic? Don’t Sleep On Charlotte
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- [00:01]
Brian Windhorst
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there Foreign.
- [00:31]
Tim Bontemps
Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from the arena, I don't can't remember the name of the Xfinity Mobile arena in Philadelphia. His home away from home moments be not moments. Couple of hours before the big Bucks at Sixers game. Not as big as they thought when they put it on the schedule. Is Tim Bontemps.
- [00:55]
Ben McMahon
Yeah, not, not quite the barn burner NBC I think was hoping for. At least potentially though a couple weeks ago the Nuggets were here without their top, I think seven guys in one. So, you know, we'll see if history repeats itself or not.
- [01:07]
Tim Bontemps
Joining us from Dallas, Texas, where the man hasn't left his home in days is Ben McMahon.
- [01:12]
Brian Windhorst
Howdy, partners. Listen, I'm here in the comfort of my home, own home and little chilly outside, still snow on the ground, kids home from school, bond temps. Meanwhile, looks like he's in a holding tank. Not sure what he's done to earn that.
- [01:24]
Tim Bontemps
Well, Philly venues are known to have hold tanks.
- [01:27]
Ben McMahon
That is true. That is true. Ensconced in a dressing room to do the pod. Thankfully the Sixers have a room, so here we are.
- [01:35]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, last time it got edited out of the podcast, but last time you got heave ho in Philly, they came in.
- [01:41]
Ben McMahon
Yeah, the first time I've ever been tossed out of a room, it happened to be the same room, but I made sure to get it cleared this time. So we're good.
- [01:48]
Tim Bontemps
He's got a guy outside the door.
- [01:50]
Ben McMahon
That's right.
- [01:50]
Tim Bontemps
Don't even think he's coming in. All right, so we have some interesting games coming up on the day. This podcast is coming coming out on Wednesday. All of you listeners and viewers will be smarter than us because you will have seen what happened in the NBA on Tuesday night. But one of the games, I believe it's on ESPN. Spurs, Rockets potential playoff matchup down McMahon way. And an interesting moment for these two teams because while both of them are in the top four in the west, both of them are potential movers at the trade deadline because of the assets that they have McMahon and also neither one of them are playing great basketball right now. They've played, put it this way, they've played better. And so I know the Rockets have won their last couple games, but before that it was a little shaky and talk about Victor in a minute. But this is an interesting time in the season for the, for this game.
- [02:46]
Brian Windhorst
I would say both are potential movers at the trade deadline because they have a lot of ammo, a lot of flexibility, all kinds of draft picks to play with, et cetera, et cetera. And I would also say that both are unlikely, at least in terms of anything that would be anywhere near blockbuster scale. And we love Perk. I know Perk was on tv, you know, today on Tuesday morning talking about Giannis to Houston. I'm just telling you that is not in play. I did check in, you know then this has been the Rockets patient approach. They've been sticking with it. Even the KD trade was not a departure from that because they waited until the price was low, it didn't have to shorten their Runway. But I checked in any, any budging and I got a four word response that was as patient as ever. So don't hold your breath for the Rockets.
- [03:42]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, I will say that the, the Rockets were saying the same thing as you said about Durant about two months before they traded for him. So that's one thing. Thanks to Bobby Marks. Bobby Marks provides us so much information just because we talked about it and we're going to mention it. I have in my hand all of the tradable first round picks that teams have. And the key thing here about picks and tradable picks is you obviously can't trade first round picks in back to back years. The step is the stepien role. Unless a couple of things, unless you've already made your pick in a year. So for example, if you have traded away your 2027 first round pick, you can't trade your 2026 first round pick unless you've already made the pick. Certainly you can agree before the draft that you will draft a guy and then trade the pick. And also you could only trade picks seven years into the future. You can't trade picks in 2045, 2056, otherwise the Suns would have tried to do so. So but every year, every July, the league year rolls over and you get access to another year. So oftentimes you will hear teams, you will hear teams talk about how they will have one tradable pick today, but at the draft will have two tradable picks or three tradable picks. For example, the Lakers today, if you were to call the Lakers and said, hey, I want to do business with you, they'd only be allowed to trade with one first round pick. But as of draft night, they can trade three. And so to bring it back around to where we started here, before I toss to Bontemps, because you mentioned San Antonio and Houston as assets. And by the way, the team that has the most. Do you know McMahon? You want to guess who has the most tradable first?
- [05:32]
Brian Windhorst
It's either OKC or Utah.
- [05:34]
Tim Bontemps
It is Brooklyn.
- [05:35]
Brian Windhorst
Wow. Okay. Brooklyn has, by the way, maybe the Rockets most primo draft asset being 27 swap rights with an S. Oh, I take that back.
- [05:43]
Tim Bontemps
I want to, I want to correct myself. Both Brooklyn and OKC have 13 picks in the next seven years. Both of them, OKC has 11 tradables right now. I want to apologize. Brooklyn has 10 tradable firsts. Utah has 11 future firsts over the next seven years. Only seven of them tradable. As for the two teams we're talking about here, San Antonio, San Antonio has seven first round picks in the next seven years, but only three of them are tradable right now on draft night. Five of them are tradable. And as for Houston, Houston has nine current first round picks over the next seven years, five of which are tradable.
- [06:26]
Brian Windhorst
Which is why you hear Houston always being suggested. Because if Houston wanted to be aggressive, they have the capability of making an offer for anybody in the league. I'm just telling you that's not their mind frame right now. Their mind frame right now is we've got a group in place that is competitive now and has a chance to be competitive for a long time. I'm not saying they'll never trade those picks, but I think it's likely that they'll use those picks to manage their payroll as Amend Thompsons on a potentially max contract. You know, Alpi Shingoon's obviously on his second deal, so on and so forth.
- [07:00]
Tim Bontemps
All right, bond temps, your ball.
- [07:02]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, bond temps, you're muted. And this is, this is the best moment in pod history.
- [07:06]
Ben McMahon
To Brian's point, I was, I didn't want my typing to be heard while I was looking up something else on the Spurs. But as, as to Brian's point earlier, like, yes, the, the Rockets were saying this until they traded for Kevin Durant. However, let's remember what they traded for Kevin Durant. A actively bad slash, I would argue toxic salary in Jalen Green and Dylan Brooks who is a nice player, but again, not a, you know, a solid asset. And the 10th pick in the draft like they did, not for a team that already has a ton of young players, right, did not offer up some sort of overwhelming package to get Kevin Durant. They took advantage of a soft market to get a very good player and then signed him to a smart contract. This has been a team that has repeatedly been prudent in its use of draft picks in terms of not striking out and swinging on a big deal. And also in there, as we've talked about many times in their negotiations with players and getting guys onto good contracts, which is to McMahon's point, as they try to navigate the aprons and these teams getting more expensive, they're going to. They're going to be able to manage that in a way a lot of other teams currently are not able to. That we might talk about later in the pod, because they did not give out Prince and going a max deal when he arguably could have gotten one. And I would bet now they won't give Amend Thompson a max deal. Not that Amend Thompson isn't awesome, but I would suggest, I would expect them to negotiate just like they did with Kevin Durant. We heard Kevin Durant was definitely going to get a max extension. He did not get a max extension. So everything that Houston has done has been prudent and methodical and planned out. And in a market where there's not a lot available to be bought to begin with, I would be very surprised if we saw the Rockets push their chips in right now when there's stuff that could be available down the road. And they have only shown they're going to take a patient and prudent approach in everything they've done over the past few years.
- [09:05]
Brian Windhorst
And by the way, the spurs are in the same boat, like the rocks with Durant. The spurs made their, you know, big swing without necessarily giving up a ton. They did give up multiple picks, but they were their own picks instead of the Hawks, which are probably going to be more valuable, which certainly were considered more valuable the time when they got deer and fox and, you know, bottoms. I know you've got some concerns about the spurs that are, you know, they've been playing 500 balls since Christmas, which I find humorous, because you bet that they would be 500 or worse for the course of the season. And I'm going to. I'm going to dine very well because of that bet. So a little 500 stretch over a, you know, 20% share of the season and now we're going to press panic buttons.
- [09:48]
Ben McMahon
Oh, I wouldn't say I'm pressing any panic buttons. The Spurs, I've obviously outplayed everybody's expectations, including their own. They're having a great season. But when they're 8 and 8 over, I think a 16 game stretch, that is 16 game stretch. But 8 and 8 since Christmas, I believe.
- [10:02]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, on Christmas Day they, they beat the Thunder in, in Oklahoma City on Christmas Day by 15, if you remember.
- [10:09]
Ben McMahon
Third time in 12 days and that.
- [10:12]
Tim Bontemps
Moved them to 23 7. And, and so they are now going into this game in Houston. They are now 31 and 15. So I believe that is eight.
- [10:22]
Ben McMahon
That is eight and eight.
- [10:23]
Tim Bontemps
Very good.
- [10:23]
Ben McMahon
And, and like we've talked about before, you know, it will be interesting to see how the season continues to progress for Victor Wembanyama, who since coming back from that knee injury against the Knicks has taken more threes and has blocked less shots and his three free throws are slightly down. And he has been more of a perimeter oriented player, which by the way, I think is totally understandable because he's had his legs rolled up on him a couple of times and like we've seen with Kevin Durant in the past, he's got a body type that's susceptible to getting tangled up in the paint and getting rolled up, his legs rolled up on, which causes knee injury. So I obviously can understand from that standpoint why he'd be more focused on trying to take some more jumpers right now. But when they have been at their best this year it's been with Victor dominating inside like we've talked about, and still taking some threes but getting to the rim more, dunking more, focusing on being a big man more and a perimeter player less. And if he's going to be more focused on being on the perimeter for a while, it's going to be an interesting thing for these guys potentially navigate because I do think it lowers the ceiling a little bit.
- [11:34]
Brian Windhorst
Well, and, and I went back and looked at the threes that he's been taking by and large they are good looks. There are a bunch of trailer threes or a bunch of catch and shoot threes. There have been a few, not great ones in there, but you know, and he's shooting it during the stretch. He's shooting at 38% right, 38 and change from three on six plus a game from the floor he's almost 50%, 49.6, averaging 25 points per game. And I hear what you're saying, I definitely think Honestly, there's some of like the tough fadeaway mid range twos that I would like to see a little bit more aggression, getting better position and getting, you know, attacking the basket a little bit more in there. But really the drop off for the Spurs. Wimby's been playing at an all MVP or I'm sorry, all NBA MVP type of level. It's, it's the young guards Castle during this stretch, his shooting splits are basically 36 and 25, averaging 14 a game. His numbers are down. Dylan Harper's hit the rookie wall, averaging 7.8 points per game. Of those, 16 on 38% from the floor, 21 from three. It's those guards who, let's be honest, those guards were awesome in those three wins over the Thunder. Thinking, man, if those young guards can handle that pressure now, like, watch out, they're, they're experiencing some growing pains. And I think if the young guards can kind of get out of the little funk that they're in, then you'll see the spurs, you know, winning 70% of their games again.
- [13:06]
Ben McMahon
And to your point, I love Stefan Castle, but we're now a year and a half in and he's shooting 28% from his career from three. Like that is not going to be a tenable thing long term if it continues at 28%.
- [13:19]
Tim Bontemps
Like that's something that the opposing team will just not guard him. Right.
- [13:23]
Ben McMahon
Well, in that you just, in today's NBA, it's just extremely difficult to be a perimeter player shooting 28% and to be a, you know, hugely impactful player. Stefan Castle is a fantastic defender. He's got better as a playmaker. I think he's going to become a better shooter. He's awesome. But that to your point, McMahon, the young guards have looked like young, tired guards in the dog days of the season. And I think in general, you know, the biggest question about him, Fox and Harper going forward was can those three guys consistently play together? And Castle last year shot 27 high. I think 27.8% this year is at 28.5% or vice versa. Like that's just not. If you're shooting five a game at that kind of number, I mean, that's just not going to work. Like you said, Brian, in the playoffs. That'll become a real problem.
- [14:08]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah. So it's hard to look at Victor's season and kind of assess it because before his calf injury, he was routinely playing mid to high 30s minutes per game. And since the calf injury and then the knee injury, he's been routinely playing in the low to mid-20s and coming off the bench in a lot of cases. So if you look at the numbers side by side, of course his scoring will be down, he's on the court less. But if you remember way back in October and November when all of us were like gasping about Victor when he came out of the gate and he was averaging like, you know, he was throwing dunks down, he was only shooting in the paint and he was, you know, averaging 30 points a game. These are like, if you look at the first eight or ten games of the season, this is the number of threes he took per game back when he was playing high 30s. 236-052-22507. Okay, now you go look at these recent games and again, remember this is, although the last couple of games he's been in the 30s, but a lot of these games he's in the 20s. 10, 7, 7 12, 9, 6 1, 9 4. There you can just see right there, he's shooting more threes and his scoring is down. The percentages are good. Like he could look at you and say, well, why don't you want me to take it if I'm shooting 40%? And it's not that we don't want you to take it, but like, especially when his teammates are also struggling from the outside, they need that interior presence.
- [15:35]
Ben McMahon
Well, and in the three best games of their season, those three wins against the Thunder and yes, I know he was coming back from the injury, but in those three games he went 6 for 11 from the field, 5 for 9 from the field and 6 for 12 from the field. So 32 shots in those three games, he took 27 shots from two point range and took a total of five threes. Like that is, that's the formula for that. That ultimately I think is the kind of formula that is going to lead to the highest ceiling out.
- [16:06]
Tim Bontemps
I mean, this is what Durant was saying, right? McMahon. I mean, when the Rockets beat the, beat the, when they played last time, what was it about a week and a half ago? And dur. Durant basically, I don't remember the. Basically he was like every time, essentially.
- [16:18]
Ben McMahon
Said every time he shoots a jumper, that's a win for us.
- [16:21]
Tim Bontemps
And I agree.
- [16:22]
Ben McMahon
Yeah, he's a 75 athlete, right? He's a 75 athletic freak who could dunk from the free throw line. So like it's not that he's not a good shooter, but the more he is oriented towards playing in the paint and getting fouled and getting into free line, which is a phenomenal free throw shooter. Again, like it. The calculus has changed a little bit for a team that at the start of the year we would have said, hey, if these guys are in the top six, that's a huge win. So now they, they're on pace to win 50 plus games and like they could be a threat to get out of the West. And so then it's like, all right, if you're going to beat the Thunder over seven or the Nuggets over seven, it's going to require pretty high level stuff.
- [17:00]
Brian Windhorst
Here's Durant. He's still working on his jump shot. You can tell he's more dangerous when he gets layups and dunks. That's more his game than floating around the perimeter. Shooting threes when they go in, it looks amazing. But when you put a hand up, he had a couple of bad misses. And again, I don't think you want Wimby passing up the great looks on the trailer threes and a nice catch and shoot like they're not a hand.
- [17:21]
Tim Bontemps
In the face zero.
- [17:23]
Brian Windhorst
Right. But you do want him doing a lot of damage around the rim. I do think that's also directly related to the guards playing better because, you know, you want Wimby getting dunks and layups that are created for him ideally. And Wimby had a terrible game in Houston. Just to be clear. I read you the percentages, which are pretty good overall for those 16 games. Imagine if there's not a 5 of 21 in Houston where he was owing to the game.
- [17:48]
Tim Bontemps
He was 5 of 21 and they lost by five points.
- [17:51]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, he was awful.
- [17:52]
Tim Bontemps
Just imagine if he was a little bit more judicious in that game.
- [17:55]
Ben McMahon
And we're also coming off a game on Tuesday or Monday when he played the pelicans and went 2 for 10 from 3 and he got, you know, beat it beat up inside by Zion and they lost to the Pelicans too.
- [18:05]
Brian Windhorst
And Wendy, you're talking about how he's, he's ramping up after missing time with injuries. The Houston game was a back to back and you know, talking to somebody in San Antonio, they felt like it was a fatigued performance by Wendy, especially in the second half. And there that there was settling and not necessarily on the threes as much as like there was some really tough, you know, like off dribble, fade away, 16 foot type of shots that are just not going to be high percentage shots.
- [18:34]
Tim Bontemps
Well, Victor is a guy who likes motivation, by the way we mentioned, I think on the pod last week about how his, his block numbers had taken a dip since the injuries. He went through a stretch of about 15 games where he only had more than two blocks like once or twice. He's got nine in the last two games. So he's, he's rounding into form there. Maybe that's an indication of how he's feeling. But knowing how Victor likes motivation and likes to sort of answer things, I'll be interested to see how he plays in this game about whether he tries to shoot threes over the top of Durant and try to prove a point or whether he recognizes that maybe Durant had a point and. Cause like I said, when Victor plays 7 5, he's very hard to beat. When he wants to prove that he can be a wing, which we know he can be, as Durant says, his advantage lessons. That's just the truth.
- [19:27]
Brian Windhorst
And you want him to be a dominant big man who can shoot threes for a three point shoot.
- [19:32]
Tim Bontemps
But even it's not even just shooting the threes. There are times when he wants to put the ball on the floor, on the perimeter and like cross guys over. And I know he can do it, but again, that's a win for the defense if he's out there trying to put on a dribbling show and trying to, you know, create off the dribble.
- [19:48]
Ben McMahon
Look, at least, at least as of right now, my vision of the ideal Victor Wembanyama is Rudy Gobert, his countryman on defense, and Dirk Nowitzki on offense, which, by the way, there's two hall of Fame players. Hold on.
- [20:00]
Brian Windhorst
You want him dunking and Dirk wasn't a dunker.
- [20:03]
Ben McMahon
Dirk. Dirk wasn't a dunker. But Dirk was a play finisher, not a play.
- [20:07]
Brian Windhorst
Creek, how often did Dirk dribble early in his career? A lot. And in the prime of his career, which extended well into his 30s, Dirk was one hell of a catch it at the nail and go ISO, correct?
- [20:19]
Tim Bontemps
Well, yeah, I mean he could, he could make over and he wasn't step back. He would. No, there was a lot of the nail.
- [20:24]
Brian Windhorst
There was a lot of 1, 2 dribble isos that were extremely effective. He was an alarm ISO player.
- [20:30]
Tim Bontemps
Dirk was a play of all time.
- [20:32]
Ben McMahon
Yes, Dirk was a play finisher, not a play creator. And if Victor leaned, at least for now leans into that, I think that's got the potential to be unstoppable. Particularly like he had those two shots in the Celtic game where he was at the nail and rose up and I mean, he shot it from like 14ft in the air. It was just impossible to do anything with.
- [20:50]
Tim Bontemps
He was shooting down.
- [20:51]
Ben McMahon
Yes. Like that's, that's the kind of stuff that over time, if he develops, I just think that will be utterly, utterly unstoppable for him to, for anybody to try to hit.
- [21:02]
Brian Windhorst
Tim Bontemp's trying to put his fellow Frenchman in a box. Bon Tom More Hoop Collective Podcast after.
- [21:10]
Tim Bontemps
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- [22:39]
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- [23:16]
Tim Bontemps
Okay, I don't want to assume anything with the Utah Jazz because they lead the league in making you look Silly. But thankfully, Larry Markkanen is returned from his illness. Then he needed multiple days to return to conditioning. Return to conditioning. But don't worry. Do not worry, Utah fans. In tonight's game against. Against the Clippers, Keonte George needs a rest.
- [23:43]
Brian Windhorst
And Nerck, right, Yusuf Nergic had three straight triple doubles, baby.
- [23:48]
Tim Bontemps
Now, there is this thing with the Clippers. If they win tonight, and that's an if. We'll see. Is this McMahon? Is this the magic fifth? What's.
- [23:58]
Brian Windhorst
No, it's happened. The tweet has been eaten and it's.
- [24:01]
Tim Bontemps
He actually ate it. Okay.
- [24:03]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [24:03]
Tim Bontemps
Bring our listeners and viewers up to date on this.
- [24:06]
Brian Windhorst
Hold on, let me make sure I'm getting the fillers.
- [24:09]
Tim Bontemps
I think that's right.
- [24:10]
Ben McMahon
I think it was to. To give people the background. Somebody, some fan of the Clippers or. I know who it was, tweeted, if The Clippers go 15 and three in a stretch this season, I'll eat this. I'll eat this tweet.
- [24:22]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [24:22]
Ben McMahon
Literally, physically eat it.
- [24:24]
Brian Windhorst
It's a fan blogger slash podcaster. Feller's name is Robert Flom. He's got a great Twitter handle at Rich Homie Flom. And, you know, they. I. He ate the tweet, printed that thing out and aided, you know, live streaming and all that.
- [24:40]
Tim Bontemps
Now.
- [24:41]
Ben McMahon
Good for him.
- [24:42]
Brian Windhorst
He tweeted that when the.
- [24:43]
Tim Bontemps
There were fans in the. I wonder if the Clippers provided this, but I don't know. But there were fans in the stands the other night. They played the Nets holding, you know, mock ups of that tweet when they were. When they needed to beat the Nets, which they did by 30 to go to 50, by the way.
- [24:58]
Ben McMahon
We're off by like 50 in the. In the first half as the Nets twice in the last week have ensured that the tank is well underway.
- [25:06]
Brian Windhorst
And that's when Jordy Fernandez is saying there's losing and there's being losers, and that's the danger of tanking, by the way. But, no, this tweet occurred when the Nets. I'm sorry, The Clippers were 6 and 21.
- [25:21]
Tim Bontemps
And that was their nadir.
- [25:23]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. Since that point, they are 15 and three going into. You know, by the time this runs, probably 16 and 3. That is the best record in the NBA during that span. And look, you can tie it to Chris Paul's departure. The turnaround didn't start right after, but whatever. They felt like they needed to move on.
- [25:44]
Tim Bontemps
I mean, that's. I don't think that wasn't.
- [25:48]
Brian Windhorst
That's not the reason they felt they need to move on, they did. I mean we can go over the reasons. The biggest reason is Kawhi Leonard has been playing at an MVP level. I mean during this stretch he's averaging basically 32 points on 50, 43, 92 shooting and you know, filling out the box score, playing big time defense, making all kinds of plays, you know, 2.4 steals per gallon. We're watching a two time finals MVP playing at that level now. How long is it going to last? Will he be available come playoffs?
- [26:24]
Ben McMahon
Might be the best season of his career. Regular season wise.
- [26:28]
Brian Windhorst
Yes, Kawhi is playing at peak Kawhi levels.
- [26:32]
Tim Bontemps
Okay, so as we do this, they have 24 losses which ties. There's some teams that have quite a bit of different number of games played. Um, partially it's just variance partially because some teams had games canceled because of weather recently or other things. But they are two games in the loss column from being an eighth. Uh, there are five wins in the win column from being eighth and Golden State is four games over 500. The Clippers are under. But the thing you can control is the, is the loss column and there are two losses from being in eighth and which would be you know, even out of the first play in game at this point. And so like. And the teams that are behind them.
- [27:10]
Brian Windhorst
Like don't worry about those teams.
- [27:12]
Ben McMahon
Yeah, just look up, don't look back.
- [27:15]
Tim Bontemps
They've now got a three game lead on Dallas for the play in line.
- [27:20]
Ben McMahon
They're, they're. The 10 teams in the play in are set. Barring something very strange happening. The question I think that's relevant is how many teams above the Clippers do we think are better than the Clippers today?
- [27:31]
Tim Bontemps
Certainly the Blazers are in ninth without Jimmy. Well, the Blazers have been hot recently, but they are on an east coast road trip right now. So let's check back in with them in a week or so. But the Blazers have been playing very well.
- [27:47]
Ben McMahon
Denny Avi has been awesome obviously but.
- [27:49]
Brian Windhorst
I would say dealing with the back stuff.
- [27:51]
Ben McMahon
He's been in and out with the back stuff. Yeah, but I would say the Clippers are better than them. To McMahon's point, I think the warriors without Jimmy, barring a trade are definitely not as good as the Clippers with their guys, which obviously is a big if. I would say they're better than Phoenix. Like the Clippers high end I think.
- [28:08]
Tim Bontemps
Is by the way, Jalen Green came back from the hamstring injury that he's had twice. He immediately aggravated it again and Immediately went back to the mri.
- [28:18]
Ben McMahon
Yeah, that's been a rough situation and I look like I, I think Minnesota is better than the Clippers. But I'll tell you what, the way Minnesota's been playing, yes, they got a free win when the warriors sat everybody on Monday but they lost five in a row. They, they have been very funky this year in general. Wildly up and down from game to game. I'm not sure the Clippers are not better than them too.
- [28:41]
Brian Windhorst
Lakers.
- [28:42]
Tim Bontemps
Well, they're, they might be better than. I think they're better than the Lakers too. I don't know if they can catch Minnesota.
- [28:47]
Ben McMahon
Well but I'm just talking about in terms of looking forward.
- [28:51]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [28:51]
Ben McMahon
Regardless of where they land. Like where do we rank them? Like they're probably at worst fifth in the west right now or six in the west right now.
- [28:58]
Brian Windhorst
And we, we all thought that's about going in the season. We thought they were a top five or six team in the West.
- [29:03]
Tim Bontemps
Let me check on Zubotch's all NBA status here.
- [29:08]
Brian Windhorst
Well listen, Zubots and, and, and Brook Lopez, Brooke hadn't been shooting the ball great during this stretch but they've become, they're very solid big man tag team tandem for sure. But I thought strongly going in the season they were the best team in LA and a top six team in the West. I think those two things are true right now. The standings don't tell you that but your eyeballs over the last month and a half sure do. And look, it's funny.
- [29:37]
Tim Bontemps
The Lakers have won four out of five and the team that they lost to was the Clippers.
- [29:40]
Brian Windhorst
This is true. It's funny because there was a time when the league was in a pretty strong panic state about the Clippers pick situation given that it is owed to OKC unprotected this year and next year via swap. I don't think it's going to be a lottery pick this year at a time it looked like it was a top five pick. You know I was talking about AJ Debance a playing for the OKC Blue next year.
- [30:05]
Ben McMahon
Well and listen all that all being said, we're one misstep from Kawhi away from being right back in the same boat that they have been in. I mean that that is the problem for as great as they've been and they've been awesome. Like if you could start the playoffs today, like yeah I would say the Clippers are probably the somewhere in the middle of the pack in terms of the west playoff teams and I would not want to see them in a series, but we have seen this too many times and if Kawhi disappears because of injury again, all of a sudden they, they don't look nearly the same. And then, you know, maybe they do end up with the 11th spot in the lottery like the Mavs last year. And we know what happened then.
- [30:45]
Tim Bontemps
The Orlando Magic lost a home and home with the Cavs earlier this week. I'm sure they're real happy to leave Orlando and fly to Cleveland for that game. Franz Wagner is, after coming back from his ankle injury in time for them to play over in Germany, has been put back on the shelf with ankle soreness and that to me is actually pretty worrisome. They play in Miami, which I'm sure they were happy to get to from Cleveland on Wednesday night. They've lost four in a row and frankly they're having trouble scoring right now. And but although while you want to look at their scoring because they've got, they have failed to crack 100 like three times in the last two weeks. The big number that is blasting to me is that last year when the Magic kind of announced themselves, they were the number two defensive team in the league, I think, or were in the top three behind Oklahoma City. That was what Jamal Mosley hung his hat on for all the issues that they had scoring. They were great defensively.
- [31:49]
Ben McMahon
They played to take it even a step further. They were third two years ago and second last year.
- [31:55]
Tim Bontemps
Okay, second last year. So this is what their identity has been as a team.
- [31:58]
Ben McMahon
That's right.
- [31:58]
Tim Bontemps
So they go out in the off season and they spend four first round picks to get Desmond Bain. The concept being we are going to upgrade our shooting while not downgrading our defense. This is a, this was a move to put them in contention to win the Eastern Conference. They are now past midseason here, 16th in the league in defense. That is a devastating drop off in terms of their defensive production.
- [32:24]
Ben McMahon
And, and by the way, they have not finished inside the top 20 in the NBA in offense since Dwight Howard was on the team, which is an.
- [32:31]
Tim Bontemps
Amazing stat which Desmond Bain was supposed to fix.
- [32:33]
Ben McMahon
And where do they rank right now? 20th.
- [32:36]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, listen, that's technically top 20.
- [32:39]
Brian Windhorst
If we're going to talk, if we're going to talk, the Orlando Magic struggles and frankly, if we're just going to talk to Orlando Magic, period. We've got to talk about Paulo, Ben Caro and you know, there's a lot of talk around the league that Paulo and Jamal Mosley might not be seen eye to eye the one thing I would say about that is I know Jamal Mosley well and I know that every stop of his coaching career he has been absolutely beloved by players. He was in Dallas for a long time and I would watch pregame, every single game there would be guys from the other team who would come up and hug him and love on him because he was their favorite assistant coach. He was Luca's favorite assistant coach. He was a lot of guys in Dallas's favorite assistant coach. So, you know, I don't know exactly what's going on there, but I do know Jamal Mosey's track record. And Paulo Banchero is an extraordinarily gifted player who is not impacting winning. Who is negatively impacting winning. The Magic are worse offensively and defensively with him on the floor. You know, he's a, he's 6 foot 10, powerful body, all kinds of skills. He's a ball stopper who does not make his team better. And he is still. And he's young. Look, he's 23 years old. There's a lot of room for growth here. And he's been an all star already. He is still not an efficient offensive player.
- [34:06]
Ben McMahon
Well, I wrote about it in my mid season lessons Learned for all 30 teams. Paolo. In his career, every single year, the Magic had been worse when he's been on the court than on the bench. Like that's a fact and it remains a fact this year. To your point, McMahon. And here's the other just broader thing about the Magic, right? Like Brian, you mentioned, they make the trade for Desmond Bay. This is a team that's typically been extraordinarily patient under Jeff Welkin. They made a series of moves in about two weeks and moved out.
- [34:33]
Tim Bontemps
They made a trade, a non draft night trade in like four years, right?
- [34:37]
Ben McMahon
They moved out Aaron Gordon and Evan Fournier and Nick Vucevich in a two week span a few years ago to start this rebuild and then essentially have drafted and just like let it percolate for several years. Well then they go all in and make the Desmond Bain trade trade the first go do that. And now they are both a as of right now, going into the game on Wednesday, one game over 500. And they're also very expensive. They're a few million dollars into the tax this year, which is not a place they've typically been. And next season, as of right now, with 710 guaranteed contracts on the books, as of right now, there's several million dollars into the luxury tax which by the way, I think there's at least a world where the projections are a little lower than what they are now. It's a 7% increase in the cap because of how the RSNs across the league have tanked. So we'll see where that lands. But let's assume the projection is accurate. They're right now several million dollars into the tax and that's if they just cut Jonathan Isaac. If they have him on the team. They're bumping up against the second apron without a full roster. And that is before you. That's. That's while being a team that right now is 500 and not very good compared to what it was supposed to be.
- [35:50]
Tim Bontemps
They signed Palo but that's not gonna work. They signed Paolo to an extension. His salary goes from $15 million to $41 million which that's money that you're happy to pay a superstar player but when he's not getting the results you need. And you have Franz Wagner at 41 million and Desmond Bain at $39 million and Jalen Suggs at $32 million. That's a thing. The other thing is Wendell Carter. They also signed him to an extension extension that think the league felt was a fair extension. But his contract is jumping from 11 million to 18 million. So you're looking at an increase of these guys of your core players. You know, you're bringing the same players are coming back and you are paying them $35 million more just in those two. And those two guys are getting 35 million more. And then one of the success stories of this year's team is Anthony Black who actually was kind of underachieving his first two years. He really lottery pick. A lot of people are excited about him. He's having a breakout season. Averaging 16 points. You know, has led them to several victories.
- [36:56]
Ben McMahon
Also very good defensive player.
- [36:57]
Tim Bontemps
Yes. It's extension time for him. So you're looking at him. He's going to be expecting or hoping to get taken care of this summer. And I don't know how they're going to be able to with this team that's this expensive. That is that to this point is not delivering.
- [37:14]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. And listen when you open this up, open up pod. Talking about the Houston Rockets and really if you look at the builds here, there's there are some pretty stark differences. Okay. Number one, the Rockets big move was wait until it was a buy low situation for a proven superstar where it was only one pick for kd where the Magic it was throw four picks in and go get Desmond Bain. Very good player but Never been an all star, much less superstar. Also, both Franz and Paulo got full boat max extensions and you know, no negotiation like full boat max extensions. I mean, Paulo got a supermax they didn't end up qualifying for. Neither of those guys are max players. It's just, that's just, it's a simple fact. I mean, Paulo is. His effective field goal percentage this year is.496. He's shot. He's had a 50% effective field goal percentage once in his career. That was last year when it was 50 on the dot. That, that is middling efficiency. That's not a max player.
- [38:24]
Tim Bontemps
You know, I watched him play on Monday night against Cleveland. He looked Great. He had 37 points, 10 rebounds. Like you would, he would get, you know, you know, they would switch on to him, he'd get a smaller player. He just bully them. His mid range was working. Like, if you watch that, you know, you watch that game, you're like, man, this guy is a stud. And then you look up at the end of the game and they have 96 points and they lost by double digits.
- [38:48]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [38:48]
Tim Bontemps
And again, sort of the PALO experience.
- [38:51]
Brian Windhorst
And the talent is not the question. I mean, he is 6 foot 10 with a big strong frame, athletic. There's, there's big time, big time talent there. But for whatever reason, the PALO potential is a lot greater than the reality right now. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [39:14]
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Tim Bontemps
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Ben McMahon
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Ben McMahon
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Tim Bontemps
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- [40:45]
Ben McMahon
Well, and look again, this is where the finances and situation, the reality of the league sets in. Like when you make a move like the one the Magic made, you're expecting to be a top three team in the east. Like they were talked about as a possible finals team coming into the season. Right now they're sitting at.500. They're looking like they're going to be a playing team. You're not going to be a playing team. Flirting with the second apron in Orlando, I would not think so. Therefore, like you would expect things to change. I would expect Orlando between now and the trade deadline to get out of the luxury tax. Maybe they won't. But this is not typically that would.
- [41:18]
Tim Bontemps
Require a mid season move, which we have not. The last time they made a mid season move was to trade for Markel Fultz.
- [41:25]
Ben McMahon
Right. So which is in 2021, which was several years ago. Right. So like there's, you know, it will be interesting to see what happens with them between now and the trade deadline. It'll be interesting to see what happens with them this summer. But they are, they're on pace to be very expensive. You mentioned Anthony Black. Like that extension negotiation will be interesting and you know, Orlando is going to be, I think, one of a lot of teams that we're looking at this summer, especially if things don't go well over the back half of the year. That, you know, the trade deadline I think might be quiet, but the summer I think's got a chance to be pretty spicy around the league on a lot of fronts. And Orlando is a prime example of that. Where if you go into a season with big expectations and they don't pan out, that usually leads to some sort of changes, whether it's roster or otherwise. And that I think is going to be a question in Orlando and many other places, especially if we get to the trade deadline and a lot of teams are left in the same boat they're in now and they can't make any changes now because we just don't see a lot of movement, period.
- [42:22]
Tim Bontemps
Earlier in the podcast I talked to you about the Bobby Marks list of Tradable firsts. Super valuable.
- [42:26]
Ben McMahon
Glad you're showing it there.
- [42:28]
Tim Bontemps
Guess who has 10 first round picks the next seven years, eight of which are tradable. Which is. Oh, oh, oh.
- [42:35]
Brian Windhorst
I bet you it's the Charlotte Hornets.
- [42:36]
Tim Bontemps
Well, you were paying attention when we went to break. Congratulations.
- [42:39]
Ben McMahon
A rare moment.
- [42:40]
Tim Bontemps
Hornets have won nine of their six of their last nine. They play in Memphis if they can land based on the ice situation there. The Denver Nuggets had the game over the weekend canceled and then still couldn't leave Memphis for like a day and a half. They won three in a row. They beat the Sixers by an absolute bludgeoning. They played an early game because of ice conditions on Monday and just they beat him by like 4:40 been.
- [43:07]
Brian Windhorst
Dude, they've had a bunch of blowout wins lately. That's the Thunder like that they beat I believe the war. I mean they've, they've been playing some good basketball.
- [43:15]
Tim Bontemps
They've won four out of five. We had them on. Their only national television game was last Wednesday. We had them on. I, you know, argued for you know, having some, some Hornets content to focus on on them and that they were playing the Cavs. So let the record show that I argued for Hornets content over Cavs content on national tele. I brought this big thing out where I compared con canople to Steph Curry when they were rookies and then they got down like 15 to 2 to start the game and the Cavs won and they only scored 87 points that night. Having said that, they've been really good all the other times. And Knipple is just having an amazing rookie season. In fact, their whole rookie class has been looking good. And look, they are still 10 games under 5 or 9 games under 500. But in the Eastern Conference that is fluid. And this is a team that is. Its books are in decent shape. Lots of first round picks. Bontemps like put Hornets. Put the Hornets on the watch list.
- [44:30]
Ben McMahon
Yeah, I mean they've had a pretty nice season so far. I mean yes, they're still on the way up but you know, I've talked about a few times. Lamelo Ball has been good for Charlotte this year. He's been their most impactful, positive player. There's several points per 100 better when he's on the court.
- [44:46]
Brian Windhorst
What you got statistically, Moussa Diabate has been that sure.
- [44:51]
Ben McMahon
No, he's been really, he's a really nice piece.
- [44:54]
Tim Bontemps
One of the best offensive rebounders in the league. The Moose.
- [44:57]
Brian Windhorst
He fits in the bigger conversation. But LaMelo we, we have had a lot of criticism of Lamelo and by and large the Cleveland game was not his finest work.
- [45:06]
Tim Bontemps
To say he was like, no.
- [45:09]
Ben McMahon
It'S not been perfect, but he has been a positive winning player for them this season.
- [45:13]
Brian Windhorst
Yes. And, and again, another guy, the talent, oh my goodness, six foot eight, those kind of skills. It's just, does he take it seriously? You know, the culture concerns. But they've done a good job of putting together young pieces around him who are, you know, are guys who are serious players. The Hornets are good enough now to where you, you know, you can make a case. Hey, should they be aggressive at the deadline? I still think it's more likely that they're sellers specifically, I think it's more likely that Miles Bridges ends up getting traded. But you want to talk about pieces that you feel good about moving forward. You know, Con Caneple is a stud and is going to give his college roommate Cooper flag a run for his rookie of the year money. The guy's got an effective field goal percentage over 60, averaging almost 20 points per game as a rookie and rebounds and has some playmaking ability. Brandon Miller is having a very good season and then you know, they've done a good job finding role players. Moussa Diabate, a guy who is on a second team, was a two way guy. He's been their starting center and is there. They've been very good with him in the lineup. Colt Brenner, second round pick. He's a very.
- [46:33]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah. So if you look real quick, if you look at their draft, so they end up with, with Canopol at the fourth pick. Right. So you know there was all this focus on the top three. Like they end up doing really well. Then in the second round they drafted two old guys. So Sion James has now he's been a starter for them. A 23 year old guy who you know, you know, not a guy that you look at in as, you know, a high upside guy. And then Ryan Kalkbrenner who I think is 23 or 24, again, two high second round picks that they drafted older guys. You know, these are guys that sometimes you don't see teams go for and then they sign them to contracts that are, you know, favorable. Kalkbrenner I think was two plus two. Like they have optionality on Kalkbrenner. I think James the same thing. They signed them both to like you know, four year like $9 million contracts and the Moose I think is on a really good contract. So like I just told you about the way they've traded for extra picks. Look, they're 10 games, they're nine games under.500. I'm not sitting here saying that this is a team that you need to clear your calendar in May, but look at, you know, they're putting up wins, they're putting up W's on the board.
- [47:54]
Brian Windhorst
And they're playing a fun brand of basketball with young guys who have a chance to grow up together. And they've got a bunch of picks with a front office led by Jeff Peterson that's proven that they know what they're looking at in the draft.
- [48:08]
Ben McMahon
Yeah, no, for sure, they put themselves in good position. We've talked for a couple of years how since Rich and all and Gabe Plotkin have taken over there and they hired Jeff Peterson and hired Charles Lee and have built this franchise out that they've done a lot of smart block and tackling things. Now they, you know, conquer was a huge win for them at 4. He's been great. The question will be can they get one more high level pick in this year's draft, which is a loaded draft. Like, you know, they could easily be Atlanta from two years ago or Dallas last year where they jump up from 10, 11 into the top four. If that happens again and they get a Caleb Wilson or a Cameron Boozer or an AJ Debanza or Darren Peterson or one of these guys at the top of this draft with what they have, they could take a really big leap next year. Even if they end up with the eighth or ninth pick and they add one more piece to this group. Like they're in position now to really go forward and try to start winning a bunch of games next year and they'll be in good shape to do that. So they've done a really nice methodical job of not rushing things and being patient and finding guys on the margins and doing a lot of smart, solid things. And it's got them in really good shape. And I think the biggest thing is what you said, McMahon. They play a super fun style. They're flying up and down. I mean, they've been routing teams lately. It is the dog days of January. They're probably about the worst team you want to play on a day when you're off because they could put up a buck 35 easy, like they have to Oklahoma City and Philly and the Lakers and the Nuggets, like they've, they've been playing great and it's, it's a pretty exciting situation. And again, the next three or four or five months going into this summer. Like they've got a chance to really make a leap forward if they get a couple lucky breaks and they, they take advantage of the situation that they're before we go.
- [49:58]
Tim Bontemps
So my 8 year old needed new shoes. Now he plays basketball in Aunt Edward's shoes. And he previously had Lucas. He picked out McMahon. He came home, I didn't know what he was going to get. He came home with signature basketball shoes that he's going to wear to school every day and he let him wear.
- [50:17]
Brian Windhorst
His game kicks to shoot or.
- [50:18]
Tim Bontemps
No, no, no, no. But he went out to pick a new pair of shoes and he picked up shoes that were signature basketball shoes to go to school in.
- [50:26]
Brian Windhorst
Chuck Taylor's.
- [50:27]
Tim Bontemps
That's what you would wear. Lamelo's.
- [50:29]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, no, I gotta tell you, those antas.
- [50:34]
Ben McMahon
No, they're pumas.
- [50:35]
Brian Windhorst
Pumas.
- [50:36]
Tim Bontemps
It says right on the side. One of one.
- [50:39]
Brian Windhorst
They are one of one. Those things are loud. He will be noticed, I can assure you.
- [50:43]
Tim Bontemps
He loved them. He is so excited. I mean, they'll be torn to pieces in days because he, he's hard on shoes. But yep, he came home with those pumas and he couldn't wait to show them off.
- [50:56]
Brian Windhorst
So, Wendy, fire. Fire or not fire, I mean, you.
- [50:59]
Tim Bontemps
Know, I'm the wrong person to ask there. I can't tell what's going on on there. For all I know there's, you know.
- [51:05]
Ben McMahon
There'S a thought they were fire. That's for sure.
- [51:07]
Tim Bontemps
He thought they were fire. That's all that matters. So. All right, thank you very much to our producers, Jackson, Devon and Jake. Thank you to bon Tempos and McMahon. Thank you for watching and listening to the Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week.
- [51:20]
Brian Windhorst
Adios, amigos. Sam.