← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Potential De'Aaron Fox Trades, Surging Knicks & Struggling Celtics
00:51:23
Hoop Collective: Potential De'Aaron Fox Trades, Surging Knicks & Struggling Celtics
Loading summary
Transcript188 lines
- [00:00]
Brian Windhorst
If your football team had one option in their playbook, the results probably wouldn't be great.
- [00:05]
Tim Bontemps
The same could be said for your investments. CBOE index options like SPX and XSP can help expand your investing strategies with.
- [00:12]
Brian Windhorst
Cash settlement and potential tax advantages. If you're ready for a more dynamic game plan, head to betterwithoptions.com CBO Life is Better with options.
- [00:21]
Tim Bontemps
Your investments could be too. There are risks associated with CBOE Company products.
- [00:26]
Brian Windhorst
Review the disclosures and disclaimers@cboe.com USDISCLAIMERS Foreign.
- [00:36]
Tim Bontemps
Welcome to Hoop Collective Podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from Miami, Florida. He's back and not on vacation, Tim Bontemps.
- [00:46]
Brian Windhorst
Hello everybody.
- [00:47]
Tim Bontemps
What's going on in Miami? Bontemps? Why on earth would you be sent there?
- [00:50]
Brian Windhorst
A whole lot of nothing. That's what's going on in Miami.
- [00:52]
Tim Bontemps
Joining us from San Francisco, California, where he's on a long road trip covering a bunch of teams is Bam McMahon.
- [00:58]
Bam Adebayo
Howdy partners. It is a pleasure to be here. I like Bontemps hotel room last time in San Francisco and look like he was podcasting from the lavatory.
- [01:06]
Brian Windhorst
I was not in San Francisco. You are now in San Francisco. I'm sorry, you're showing your age.
- [01:10]
Bam Adebayo
Miami.
- [01:11]
Tim Bontemps
This is a two suitcase trip for him. Bon Temps. How many pairs of shoes did you bring with you?
- [01:17]
Bam Adebayo
Well, because I'm going to be seeing a bunch of different teams I felt comfortable recycling. I only brought five pairs of shoes.
- [01:23]
Tim Bontemps
Because he's this big believer. What's your thing? You never wear two in a row or some nonsense?
- [01:28]
Bam Adebayo
Well, no, like, like if you're covering a playoff series, you can't wear the same kicks and you can't repeat kicks in a playoff series. That's a thing for sure.
- [01:36]
Tim Bontemps
If you go to a playoff series where you're not home, where you're all road games, you're. You're taking seven pairs of shoes.
- [01:42]
Bam Adebayo
Seven. Yes. You're good at math.
- [01:44]
Tim Bontemps
Ridiculous.
- [01:45]
Bam Adebayo
Plus whichever ones are where like the airport kicks, which are eight pairs of shoes.
- [01:50]
Brian Windhorst
The more, the more relevant part here is that we're going to have a whole lot of Cavs corner over the.
- [01:54]
Bam Adebayo
Next a whole lot of Cavs corner.
- [01:56]
Brian Windhorst
Over the next week. I'm gonna see the Cavs today, Wednesday when they play the Heat Sands, Jimmy butler and the McMahon gets to see, I believe, two games, right?
- [02:05]
Bam Adebayo
Yeah. Oh yeah. I got, I got a little Mavs Cavs and then Celtics Cavs, which will be a good one. Bond Timps and I worked out a little swap so we didn't have to cross paths in the air. From Cleveland to Philadelphia, you can wear.
- [02:17]
Tim Bontemps
The same pair of shoes in Cleveland twice. I'll give you permission.
- [02:21]
Bam Adebayo
You've done it a times, huh?
- [02:22]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah. All right. So right before we recorded this, Sham Sterania had one of the more pieces of. Well, it's not super surprising that this would happen, but the timing is surprising. So Shams is reporting that the Kings are going to listen to offers for Dear and Fox. This was set into motion last summer when Dear and Fox turned down trade or contract extension offer by the Kings. It wasn't like, oh my God, like, you know, this is a huge problem because he had two years left on his contract. But the Kings have at best spun their wheels this year. They've been playing well recently since Doug Christie took over for Mike Brown, but they're still headed for the play in situation. And Fox's role has. He's having another very good season, but his role has sort of spun its wheels with the addition of DeMar DeRozan and you know, with, you know, this summer, he would really be under crunch time for extension or not. Basically, you extend your trade this summer. So it looks like the Kings are advancing forward quicker. So bottoms. This is, this is a surprise. This is a player who instantaneously becomes the most attractive. The most attractive player on the market.
- [03:27]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I think you can make an argument this is the first time De'Aaron Fox has traded in the next 10 days that we've really seen the supermax fail. And I think it could be an interesting sign of things to come because, I mean, Donovan Mitchell was traded before the end of his second deal, but he was traded way before. Way before. He was really at the point where it's. Well, he's either going to sign the supermax or not. Right? I mean, it was, it was the, the Cas Bay or the Jazz essentially decided we're going to get a haul for Rudy Gobert. We're going to go in another direction. We're going to, you know, reset our team in this situation. We've already, we've talked a lot about all the guys that are hurt. I'm. I don't think Darren Fox is making the all star team this week. I do not think he's making all NBA in a couple months, but he's having a very good year. There's at least a chance he could make all NBA. And we're, we're seeing essentially a possibility of him getting traded three months before he could be eligible to sign that deal. I just think first, there's obviously a lot to talk about with him, with him in terms of, you know, where this is going, going forward and where he could wind up. But I also think it could be a sign of maybe things are shifting back in another direction when it comes to player moving in the league. Particularly because part of the threat about his situation right now is that he would like to go somewhere in free agency in 2026, which could be the first time we really see wider free agency come back into play across the league again.
- [04:54]
Tim Bontemps
That's interesting to say about the supermax. I just want to clarify it for the listeners and viewers. Darren Fox has one year left on his first max contract. What we call in the pod, the Fun Max. It's 25% of the salary cap. The supermax would be if he made the all star team. I'm sorry, made the all NBA team and then he would be eligible to sign for 35%. And whenever that's happened, the player has always signed because it's tens and tens of millions of dollars more. That is a supermax that he's referring to. If Darren Fox didn't make the all star team and didn't, I'm sorry, didn't make the all NBA team, I keep saying that I'm sorry, didn't make the all NBA team, then the contract that he could sign with the Kings is equal to the contract he could have signed per year, at least with anybody becoming a free agent. So the King's advantage in resigning him wouldn't be there and that if, if he is not trending in that direction, the Kings would lose the advantage and potentially face losing him for nothing. So that's what Bon Temps is saying. But I, but I don't think he's going to be super max eligible.
- [05:58]
Bam Adebayo
So. No, but all that you just laid out there is why the anticipation was this was going to be a summer decision. And we've, we've discussed like it was very apparent that De'Aaron Fox was leaning toward asking out. We just thought it was going to be a little bit later. We thought it was going to be this summer and kind of the Supermax would have been maybe the only potential thing that could convince him to stay in Sacramento. You know, this is certainly what I believed, but again, his odds of getting all NBA this year are, are pretty slim. I'm sure that he's considered that. I'm sure that, you know, Rich Paul, his agent, has considered that and you know, they feel like apparently that why wait when they can get to a destination where they want to be now, mid season instead of waiting for the.
- [06:55]
Tim Bontemps
Summer because he's only got one year left on his contract, he will get a say in how this goes. He doesn't have a no trade clause. He can't, you know, block a trade. But a team is not going to give the Kings a premium package for De'Aaron Fox unless he indicates he will sign an extension after he arrives. So functionally that's the way it's going to be, which is why his desires are important here and why that will dictate a lot of the way the Kings can approach this. Certainly teams can bid and you know, they can't sign him to extension right after the trade anyway. Like he's not eligible to sign till this summer. So a team can trade for him with the belief that they can convince him to do it. But that is risky and so that's why you're going to see a lot of speculation as to what De'Aaron Fox's preferences are, where he might go. So let's talk about some teams that we think make sense for dear and Fox. The one that immediately will come to the tip of anybody who's involved with the NBA who studies this is the San Antonio Spurs. The spurs have been on the lookout for a star player to play with Victor Wembanyama and they've been collecting assets to facilitate that. They've been hoping I think to draft that player. They, you know, haven't had a chance yet and you know, we'll see what happens with this year. Well, you don't you think Stephen Castle is.
- [08:10]
Bam Adebayo
I, I think he's going to be awfully good. But yes, the, the spurs absolutely make a ton of sense as a Deer and Fox destination team. They can very easily put together a deal with salaries that, that match up and they have, you know, in Bobby Marks future draft rankings they were second behind only Oklahoma City in terms of the draft capital that they've been able to stockpile over these last few years.
- [08:36]
Tim Bontemps
Well, a big thing here is exactly what the Kings are trying to accomplish about you know, this is not a team that's positioned to for rebuild their, positioned to compete. Now they obviously were a number two seed two years ago. Last year had almost an identical record ended up in the play in and this year were disappointed and fired their coach who they had under a long term contract. I'm not sure that a trade that is totally built around draft capital is in the offing. I mean, they just signed Demar Derosa and that's not a move by a team that's looking to reposition. They've also heavily invested into modest Sabonis, so.
- [09:16]
Bam Adebayo
Well, as a two team trade at least.
- [09:19]
Tim Bontemps
True, that's true.
- [09:20]
Bam Adebayo
I mean, but, but if, if the spurs are motivated to get Deer and Fox, they have a, a lot of assets and I don't know what exactly the whole thing might end up looking like. We can start speculating and throwing stuff against the wall on a third team and you know, this guy, that guy. All I'm saying is the spurs have plenty of ammunition to be able to.
- [09:42]
Tim Bontemps
Put together, let's say what the spurs have. So obviously Victor is untouchable. I would assume that Castle is untouchable, certainly. I mean, with all due respect to Dear and Fox, he's not Luka Doncic. So you're not, you know, you're not trading.
- [09:55]
Bam Adebayo
Don't tell Vlad a that.
- [09:58]
Tim Bontemps
Well done, well done. So you look on that team, you're talking about, you know, their biggest salary is Devin Vassell $29 million. Keldon Johnson makes 19 million. Harrison Barnes, who they love, makes 18 million and what recently left Sacramento. So I don't see that happening. But they do have big salaries that they can use, even if that wouldn't be the centerpiece of the trade. What the spurs have is draft capital. So they have all of their picks, all of their first round and all of their second round picks. In the, in the world of teams trading eight consecutive second round picks like the Suns have, it's worth noting that they have no picks that are outstanding, that are going anywhere. That's exceedingly rare. There's only maybe, you know, I think the Magic are in that same boat, maybe one other team. So the spurs extra first round picks and there are a number of them. They have The Atlanta Hawks 2025 first round pick, this year's pick. They have the Charlotte Hornets first round pick. But it's lottery protected so it will not, it will not happen this year. And if it doesn't convey this year, which it won't, it becomes two second round picks. But it should be noted that they do have that first round pick. They have the Chicago Bull. This is the pick that we've talked about a lot on this podcast. They have the Chicago Bulls first round pick if it falls outside or outside the top 10. So if the Bulls finish 10 or higher, they keep it and then it rolls over top eight protected the next two years.
- [11:27]
Bam Adebayo
So, so likely A late lottery pick at some point over the next few years.
- [11:31]
Tim Bontemps
Right. That's a pretty valuable pick. They have the a draft first round pick swap from Atlanta next year 2026. That's a product of the Dejounte Murray trade, which of course the Hawks have already traded Dejounte Murray and they have a 2027 first round pick for Atlanta, which I believe is unprotected and a 2028 first round swap from the Boston Celtics, which you know, may not seem that attractive, but who knows what the Celtics are going to be in 2028. So they have. Oh, and I have a 2030. Was that a swap that they have?
- [12:03]
Brian Windhorst
They have a swap between them, Dallas and Minnesota. They also have Minnesota's pick in 31 and they also have Sacramento swap rights from the DeMarta Rosen trade this summer when the Chicago Bulls traded DeMar Rosen and got nothing of the good things back in the trade.
- [12:18]
Bam Adebayo
Sacramento are to get their swap rights back. That's all I'm going to say.
- [12:23]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, so that's obviously an incredible amount of draft capital. Again, I'm not sure that draft capital is the be all, end all when you're trading and in their prime player like Darren Fox when you have other in their prime players on your roster, but that's there. So Bontemps, I've talked for a while about San Antonio. Somebody is going to want to be in San antonio. I'm not 100% sure whether this is what the Aaron Fox wants to be. All, end all. Is the Aaron Fox a player that you sort of start to, you know, in the world of trading five first round picks for Mikhail Bridges, that's the kind of price we're going to be facing here.
- [13:00]
Brian Windhorst
I mean, first of all, let's see if it's that price because the Knicks shouldn't have paid that price in the first place.
- [13:06]
Tim Bontemps
Right. But if you're, if you're Sacramento, that's where you're going to start.
- [13:09]
Brian Windhorst
If that's the price, then no, that would be, I think a bad move for the spurs to make. Now again, De'Aaron Fox is a, is a very nice player, but Victor Wembanyama is 21. Right. We're. We're talking about a guy who is just scratching the surface of who he's going to be. Yes, Darren Fox is 27. He should be good for an extended period of time. But we've seen a lot of these guards in sort of his type class that get to the third contract where it starts to go the other way in the middle of that deal. And I think this really comes down to what the price winds up being if Stefan Castle is being asked in the deal. I would agree. I don't think they should do that. I would say if it becomes a four or five first round pick deal, I don't think the spurs should do that either. Like the spurs are going to be a attractive destination for a long time and they have assets. We just laid out they have assets in 2031 that could be interesting. Like it's not like they have to do this today. So I'll be curious to see what the next eight to 10 days look like and where this lands. But there's a few teams that are going to have interest in the Aaron Fox and they all have different levels of motivations, a different kind of package they could send Sacramento. I do think a lot of this to your point, it's pretty important to think about what Sacramento will want and what they're going to try to do because like you said, they are not in a position seemingly to try to start tanking or try to start losing games. I don't think that's going to be the plan. So, so it will be interesting. But yeah, like if it's like, hey, we have to win a bidding war to get to Aaron Fox and we have to give up like the Mikhail, let's say it's a Mikhail Bridges package. Let's say it's five first round picks and in money, I don't think that would be a wise move for the spurs to make.
- [14:53]
Bam Adebayo
Well, number one, clearly Rich, Paul and Clutch are trying to prevent this from being a bidding war situation by doing the best they can to be able to say, hey, this is where he wants to get traded. And again the speculation, the strong speculation is San Antonio. We don't know that for certain at this point. But and kind of to, to keep other teams from getting into a bidding war. A potential, you know, a team that has the kind of assets where they could if they wanted to, but they're not going to get in a bidding war is the Houston Rockets. And we've talked a lot about the Rockets being determined to let this season play out. Also, you know, they could put together a deal if they really wanted to. But like the Jalen Green contract doesn't kick in until next year. So him is almost a, as a very close match in salary. He's not even the case right now. But as, as well.
- [15:50]
Tim Bontemps
Well, one of the people, one of the reasons people think Houston, not just their position but That's Darren Fox's home.
- [15:56]
Bam Adebayo
Yeah, it's Jeremy Fox's hometown. You know, the, the Rockets obviously are a team that's winning now and is a star away now. Perhaps that star might be emerging right under our nose with Amin Thompson, but that's another discussion anyways. But the Rockets aren't like their whole thing has been we're going to be patient throughout this year. I checked in and I, I don't think that's changing. I checked in after the chomps broke, the deer and Fox thing. I think this summer, depending on how things played out, Fox would have been a serious consideration for them. But again, I don't think the Rockets are going to get involved here. And then, you know, like we, we can talk about the Miami or the, the Florida teams. I think the Florida teams, you know, we can, we can talk ourselves into Fox being a good fit on either team.
- [16:45]
Brian Windhorst
I don't think he'd be a good fit in Orlando. I mean, the last thing they need is another guy who's not a great shooter. I mean, he's a really good offensive player, but I mean, they've already got Paolo and Franz who handle the ball a lot, who are mid 30% three point shooters for the most part. Like they need a guy can really shoot it.
- [16:59]
Bam Adebayo
Miami, though, Miami is interesting. Now, I'm just gonna say if, if Jimmy Butler lands in Sacramento is part of this whole thing. The Kings are playing.
- [17:09]
Tim Bontemps
No, let me, let me speak to that. As of the recording of this podcast, I do not believe that Jimmy Butler going to Sacramento is part of the option here. I have my reasons for that. Could change. This podcast is being recorded the day before it's posting. There's not been discussion, I think, with the Butler side. Not that that's absolutely vital, but that's. I can just leave it at that.
- [17:31]
Bam Adebayo
Well, there you go.
- [17:32]
Tim Bontemps
You know, the other thing is if, you know, there may be a preferred team, but the chances are that it's going to be more than one, you know, that there will be a list. So.
- [17:41]
Bam Adebayo
Well, typically these things start out with a preferred destination, then it becomes a list. Right.
- [17:47]
Tim Bontemps
So when it comes to Miami, we're.
- [17:49]
Brian Windhorst
Talking about if he winds up with, let's say he winds up with one of these four, one of these teams you mentioned. Right. If he ends up with Houston with our young, their young players and he's from there. If he ends up with Victor in San Antonio or he ends up in Miami, where he's living in Miami and he's playing with his best Friend from college in Bam. Out of bio. Like, it's not. I can't imagine any of those are scenarios where Darren be like, man, I'm just not going to stay here. Like, I, I suspect those would all wind up being pretty good options if it's one of those.
- [18:15]
Bam Adebayo
Yeah. Especially if they're putting a max extension on the table. But saying there's the most smoke around San Antonio right now. Wendy, I, I hear what you're saying in terms of, hey, a, a pick heavy package, a pick based package to Sacramento given kind of the win now charge that the Kings are under and have always been, despite the fact they've been in the playoffs once during my adult daughter's life, just about is insane. But that, you know, okay, I'm just saying it's not. If they want a player who can produce, it would not be hard to put something together with the picks they're getting from San Antonio, you know, at least some of those going elsewhere. Like, we can go down, we can go down the list of big names who are available on the trade market now and if Fox is moving, that's a big salary.
- [19:09]
Tim Bontemps
Well, the other thing is this. There aren't really a lot of big names in the trade market and there's big salaries on the trade market.
- [19:15]
Bam Adebayo
I mean, we can play semantics. Zach Levine's a big name. Brandon Ingram's a big name. I'm just throwing out guys who Darren.
- [19:23]
Tim Bontemps
You know, if you're trying to max, you know, one of the reasons why that Brandon Ingram and Zach Levine and Jimmy Butler haven't gotten traded is because there's not a whole heck of a lot of interest in them. And there's kind of this feeling in the league that even the teams that want to make a big transaction may be keeping their powder dry for later when there are more attractive options. Darren Fox comes on the market, a guy who's younger, doesn't have as much baggage and you know, all of a sudden it, you know, he's maybe the best thing available on the market and you may bring some people off the sidelines. Whereas in the summer there could be multiple other players that are not available now that could be available I don't want to get into. So it may be a strategic move from the Kings. They may not even trade them, but it may be a strategic move from the Kings to like say, hey, we, we. This may be a seller's market when it comes to high level talent and we may be able to get something there.
- [20:15]
Bam Adebayo
More Hoop Collective podcast after this Grainger.
- [20:19]
Tim Bontemps
Knows space at your facility is limited. As a maintenance specialist, you only have so many spots for backup products in your inventory roster, which means space on your bench comes at a premium. Well, when it comes to breadth and depth, Grainger's got you covered. They've got over 1 million industrial grade products. Plus fast delivery helps reduce the inventory you need to keep on hand, freeing up space and capital while giving your operation a winning edge. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by a local branch. I don't just stand on business. I live it 24 7. Because you don't become a young entrepreneur by staying stagnant. Whether I'm chasing deals, networking or taking calls from behind the wheel of my Toyota crown, I'm always in motion. You may think launching a successful startup is enough to be satisfied, but me, I'm just getting started. It's a new day at Toyota led by a new generation of drivers. And we want you to know one thing. You can't stop my drive. Toyota, let's go places. Don't miss the first Marvel movie event of the year.
- [21:23]
Brian Windhorst
The country needs Captain America.
- [21:25]
Bam Adebayo
You asked for me?
- [21:26]
Tim Bontemps
Here I am on February 14th.
- [21:29]
Bam Adebayo
Get the suits ready. Experience a brave new world. Let's go. That's made for imax. Stand by for proof of death.
- [21:37]
Brian Windhorst
You want me?
- [21:38]
Bam Adebayo
Come and get me, Captain.
- [21:40]
Tim Bontemps
Brave New World. See you to IMAX February 14th. Get tickets now. Rated PG13.
- [21:44]
Bam Adebayo
This film may be inappropriate for children under 13.
- [21:51]
Tim Bontemps
Maybe you're gonna get dispatched to Sacramento there McMahon, you and Bon Temps can go back and forth with the trade guys. Speaking of bottemps in Miami, obviously the Heat would have interest in trading for Deer and Fox. I'm not sure.
- [22:05]
Brian Windhorst
So let's just, let's just, let's just stop for a second, right? We've, we've spent a lot of time talking about the Heat wanting to have salary cap space in the summer of 26. 2026 almost said 2016. The Freudian slip. And there's a lot of reasons why for that, right? There's a lot of guys we've talked about in that summer who are going to be free agents. One of them Quite obviously is De'Aaron Fox who went to Kentucky, played with Bam out of bio there. Miami has long been Kentucky U in the NBA. Pat Riley obviously went to Kentucky. They've had a ton of star Kentucky players over the years. Tyler Hero now also potentially going to be an all star this week. Another Kentucky guy. So there's a lot. Jamal Mashburn is Has been at the last couple games. I've been at courtside. Another guy. Like, they've had a long history of being a. A Kentucky factory here. And you pair Dear and Fox with those guys. There's there that makes sense and it lines up with what the Heat have been trying to do over the past. The past few weeks, which is have an avenue to sign him or other players like him in the summer of 26.
- [23:08]
Tim Bontemps
So I don't think Jimmy Butler is what you know, and again, things could change, but I don't think Jimmy Butler is what the Kings are looking for. So is there. Is there a move that could satisfy the Kings that could get Miami Darren Fox? Look, this would, you know, this brings in Bradley Beal. Like, could you get Bradley? You know, would the Kings want Bradley Beal? Would Bradley Beal go to Sacramento?
- [23:31]
Brian Windhorst
Matt Ishbia taking over the pod man, has he gotten on the mic like, what are. What are we doing here? What are we doing again?
- [23:38]
Bam Adebayo
I think. I think it's more likely other teams that have been involved in Jimmy discuss again.
- [23:45]
Tim Bontemps
Okay.
- [23:45]
Bam Adebayo
Levine is a name that pop like Sacramento. It was a different front office. But Sacramento is. Has put a huge offer sheet on the table for Levine before. I mean, a Levine DeMar DeRozan reunion so they can experience all the glory that they had together in Chicago. Again.
- [24:03]
Tim Bontemps
I don't think it makes. I don't think the Beal makes sense for the Kings. So I.
- [24:09]
Brian Windhorst
It doesn't make sense anywhere. It's the worst contract in the NBA.
- [24:12]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah. So they, you know, they can do better than that. So I don't think that's the way to do it.
- [24:16]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I think this is a real question though. Like, when you get into a situation like this, like, yeah, Darren Fox is going to have his suitors. Right. Like, let's go back to the Donovan Mitchell situation. The founding of Cavs corner right. The Cavs came out of nowhere and traded for him. Now he had more time left on his deal. It wasn't a year and a half, but the Cavs certainly were not on any list of teams Donovan Mitchell was going to go to. Right. And then he went there. They had success and then he stayed there.
- [24:41]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [24:41]
Bam Adebayo
And if we're being honest, Donovan had a one clear preferred destination. It was New York. And then absolutely there are others that you know. And Donovan never, quote, unquote requested trade. Everybody just knew he wanted out of Utah. But whatever. But yeah, and then we didn't think Donovan was going to stay in or I, I won't Speak for Wendy. I won't speak for the Cats corner.
- [24:59]
Tim Bontemps
I was high. I was. I was highly skeptical.
- [25:01]
Brian Windhorst
Everybody was skeptical at the time.
- [25:03]
Bam Adebayo
Timson, I flat out, I will say I did not think at this point last season that, that Donovan Mitchell was going to be staying in Cleveland long term, but he felt like he could win there. There weren't necessarily great options for him. There was a max extension sitting on the table. He signed that thing and I guarantee he's got no regrets about that right now.
- [25:23]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, no. But I do think, like, you get into this situation and like a lot of this is going to come down to. I mean, it's sort of like what we've been talking about with Miami right now. It's obviously different because De'Aaron Fox, while he isn't perfect, certainly is, have a lot more suitors for many reasons than Jimmy Butler does. But like we've talked a lot about, what are the things the Heat want in a trade? Right. Probably the overriding one especially is no money after 26 to make sure it doesn't impact that 2026 free agency. The question here is going to be what is Sacramento going to want? Are they going to want players that can help them now? Are they going to want draft picks? Are they going to want the best combination of stuff they can get? Are they going to want a certain kind of player? Like, do they want to find another, like, for like replacement Darren Fox? They don't really have another guy like that on the roster. They could just have debar Rosen play point and get another. Some other bigger wings. Like, there are different things they could do. But I think that that is going to be very fascinating if this does get to the point where he's traded to see what Sacramento looks for. Because once you find that out, then, because like with Miami, you know what Miami wants. So then you could start to look around the league and say, okay, where are situations that fit the criteria the Heater looking for? And then you could sort of diagram out what the trades could be here. It's still so early that we don't know exactly what the Kings are looking for. That would be a very big domino to fall here because then you'll have a sense of, okay, if they're looking for X, Y or Z, these are the teams that can maybe get him that then he can figure out where. Where he might ultimately land and.
- [26:51]
Tim Bontemps
All right, so Miami, if they made an offer that didn't include Jimmy, they potentially make an offer with stuff that they would get for Jimmy, which could potentially Be a first round pick or two. They're out a future first, but they could, you know, I'm not sure Tyler Hero, I mean, Tyler Hero might get named an all Star tomorrow, but you know, I would think Miami would be, I think Miami would be interested in any star player that comes available. I don't, you know, I don't know if they could manage doing two separate transactions, but I think they need to be considered on the list for sure.
- [27:24]
Brian Windhorst
The Heater always, the Heat always have to be considered on the list for a star player. They've, they've spent 30 years getting star players to come here.
- [27:31]
Tim Bontemps
The Brooklyn Nets are another team that has a lot of assets and is in, is in talent acquisition mode. You know, they may have some, they have gigantic ideas for the future with gigantic names. But if they could execute a trade for De'Aaron Fox, I don't think it would hurt them. I don't think that hurts what they're doing. But I would anytime you see any.
- [27:52]
Brian Windhorst
Doesn't help them keep their draft pick this year.
- [27:55]
Bam Adebayo
Well, it's not even keeping, well, not.
- [27:56]
Brian Windhorst
Keep the draft pick, but get it, get the draft pick to be as high as possible in the draft as it needs to be, which is what the whole point of training for the pitch.
- [28:02]
Bam Adebayo
If they, if they trade for Darren Fox, his back needs to tighten up on the flight over there so you can sit the rest of the season.
- [28:08]
Tim Bontemps
Well, the Kings, that's the other thing. I'm a little bit. The Kings, as far as I know, Bon Temps. As recently as yesterday, I was talking to people who thought that the Kings were buyers at this deadline. As just as an aside and I bring up thinking about the Nets because Cam Johnson is a guy, they've had interest in another guy. I don't think I'm talking out of school. Am I talking out of school? If I mentioned, I don't know if I should say it, but there's other.
- [28:33]
Bam Adebayo
Players out now and then I'll let.
- [28:35]
Tim Bontemps
You know there's, there's other players that you would consider that, that would be buys for them, you know, so this is a pretty hard turn. But you know, they have been talking to the Nets throughout the season. So, you know, maybe who else should be on the list? Bon Temps.
- [28:50]
Brian Windhorst
I mean, I think there's four teams that logically can make arguments to go after them and they are the Heat, the Spurs, the Rockets, and I think you have to just include the Lakers by default because dear and Fox is a clutch client.
- [29:03]
Bam Adebayo
And no, I, I, I confidently will Scratch the Lakers off.
- [29:07]
Brian Windhorst
Well, I'm not saying the Lakers are going to get him. I'm saying that he's a clutch client. They have several first round picks. They have Austin Reaves. They have stuff they could throw together. I'm not saying they're going to get a trade done, but I think that's sort of where the end of the list of. You're asking me where he winds up. I assume it's one of those four teams.
- [29:25]
Bam Adebayo
I think the Lakers. The Lakers come up because people connect clutch dots. And I don't think that there's a motivation from Clutch to put Dear and Fox on that Lakers roster. I mean, especially when you have another pretty prominent clutch client, Anthony Davis, who's begging and pleading for them to acquire.
- [29:41]
Tim Bontemps
A big man again, that would give.
- [29:43]
Brian Windhorst
I think if they could get De'Aaron Fox, Dante Davis would be fine with not getting a center.
- [29:47]
Tim Bontemps
I agree. I agree. I just think that again, that's a draft. You know, that would be a. That would be a trade to get those Lakers draft picks, which would be very valuable. But I'm not sure that's what Sacramento is looking for right now. I mean, and I don't think he's.
- [30:02]
Brian Windhorst
Ending up with the Lakers. I just think, like, look, there's a couple factors here, right? One, he's got a year and a half left till free agency. Two, like again, Dear, Fox is a good player. He's a very good player. He's made one all star team. Like he's entering his late 20s. He's not a great shooter. So there are some potential drawbacks as he gets into his early 30s where this contract in a few years could not look very good. So I don't think it makes sense for a team like the Nets to trade for him. That doesn't make sense for a team like the Utah Jazz to trade for him. Has stuff to trade. So you, you start crossing off a lot of teams and there's also just a lot of point guards in the league. So, like, you just start going through teams and like, I'm just saying in team because it's funny because they traded him away from Sacramento. But like the Pacers have Tyrese Halbert, doesn't really make sense to pair him with the Aaron Fox. The Atlanta Hawks already have Trey.
- [30:53]
Tim Bontemps
Yes, that was already tried, thank you.
- [30:55]
Brian Windhorst
Right. The Knicks obviously have Jalen Brunson. The Celtics have a bunch of guards. The Cavs have multiple great guards.
- [31:01]
Tim Bontemps
Well, you know, again, we're in the land of spitballing here because we haven't done the reporting yet. Toronto would be an interesting, that would.
- [31:07]
Brian Windhorst
Be a team, I guess.
- [31:08]
Bam Adebayo
But like, but, but, but that's the kind of team that you're really, they're really taking a risk because that's a kind of team where they're not going to be on Deer and Fox's list of preferred destinations. And this is like for example, the Mavericks traded for Christoph Porzingis when he was not on or they were not on his list of preferred destinations, but he was a restricted free agent. This is not a restricted, this is a guy who's going to be an unrestricted free agent if he doesn't sign an extension. So yeah, yeah, if the message is, hey, don't trade for me, I do not want to be there, then I would as a rebuilding team, certainly heed that warning.
- [31:46]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, listen, there's not, there's not a lot of teams with heavy draft capital to make trades. There's a lot of good guards in the league. There are not a lot of teams that are in a position to make this kind of trade. So I think the world is fairly small of realistic options for him to go somewhere. I think again, it's a, it's going to be a two part question. One, you know, I, I'd be very surprised if he wound up in like I agree with you on Houston, but if you wound up in Houston, San Antonio or Miami, just as three examples, I suspect he'd probably be very happy with him. Then the question is what does Sacramento want? And when we find that out, which again this just all happened so we haven't really had a chance to dig into it yet, then we'll have a much better sense of where he could go because then you could start to draw lines toward which teams have the stuff Sacramento wants. And again I would tend to assume with the team the Kings have put together, they're probably going to want stuff that can help them now or they're going to want a trade that ends up with them with stuff that can help them now. Even if it means that it's, you know, there's like to McMahon's point, it's a multi team trade where they have, they get draft picks, they reroute them elsewhere, whatever. But like it'd be surprising if they come out of this with a bunch of draft picks and they just take a step back.
- [32:53]
Tim Bontemps
Well, I will say, just as an FYI, the Kings are in 10th place in the west as we record this and their first round pick is top 12 protected to Atlanta.
- [33:04]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, they're also two games out of sixth.
- [33:06]
Tim Bontemps
Right? Well, that's the Western Conference, you know.
- [33:08]
Brian Windhorst
Right.
- [33:09]
Bam Adebayo
More Hoop collective podcast after this.
- [33:13]
Tim Bontemps
You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook meat. Factor your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals. Factor is dietitian approved, Chef prepared and you plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with factor. Learn more@Factor Meals.com um, I think I just won my taxes. Yeah, I just switched to H and.
- [33:48]
Brian Windhorst
R block in about one minute.
- [33:50]
Tim Bontemps
All I had to do was drag and drop last year's return into H and R block and bam. My information is automatically there so I don't have to go digging around for all my old papers to switch.
- [33:59]
Brian Windhorst
Nope. Sounds like we just leveled up our tax game.
- [34:03]
Bam Adebayo
Switching to H and R block is easy. Just drag and drop your last return.
- [34:07]
Tim Bontemps
It's better with block. The knicks have scored 143 points in backto back games and regulation bon temps. They've won four in a row. They just beat the Grizzlies, who had one of the longest winning streaks in the league at six games. Mikhail Bridges in that game against Memphis had 28 points and was plus 43, I think. And John Morant, who was his primary defensive assignment was minus 41.
- [34:38]
Brian Windhorst
The 5, 10 points, 2 assists, 5 for 13, 4 turnovers, minus 41 in 27 minutes. That, folks, is hard to do.
- [34:49]
Tim Bontemps
So you were at that game at the Garden. So this is, you know, this has kind of been who the Knicks are, although this is an extreme situation with their offense. And it was interesting because, you know, the Knicks and Grizzlies are opposite ends of the spectrum. The Grizzlies have how many guys they play, McMahon?
- [35:07]
Brian Windhorst
They play 10 or 11 a night.
- [35:09]
Bam Adebayo
Yeah, I think they play 18. All three two way guys in the entire roster.
- [35:13]
Tim Bontemps
Nobody.
- [35:14]
Brian Windhorst
Jenkins made a point before the game of saying they a 10 to 11 man rotation. And this was being asked about in particular in New York because there has been a. Oh boy, shall we say, a very heavy focus by the reporters in New York on the minutes played by the mixed starters.
- [35:30]
Bam Adebayo
So the Tibs minute police, baby.
- [35:34]
Brian Windhorst
Well, this was, this was, you know, my guy. Stephan Bondi, my longtime friend and colleague in the New York press corps, is now the beat writer for the Knicks, replacing Mark Berman for the post. Comes in there and says, you know, Taylor you don't have any of your guys playing even 30 minutes a game. Is that how intentional a thing is that? And Taylor went into how they're playing all these guys.
- [35:55]
Tim Bontemps
Taylor's like it was an accident. I didn't even notice it.
- [35:57]
Brian Windhorst
Well, and then by the way, they go out in the game and Towns and Brunson don't play in the fourth quarter because they're up by 8 billion and they forced 26 turnovers in the game and absolutely throttle these guys. I asked John after the game what happened. He just said, turnovers problem all year. We got to be better about keep taking care of the ball.
- [36:17]
Bam Adebayo
But, well, I hope the Grizz at least had like a good dinner in New York while they're there. Maybe saw a Broadway show or something. I mean, they found some sort of entertainment.
- [36:27]
Brian Windhorst
26 turnovers is hard to do. And they were, they were flinging it all over the place. And the Knicks kept getting one run out after another. I did see Marcus Smart, my old pal from Boston walking around. Sounds like he's going to be back soon. He's a guy that's come up a bunch over the last couple weeks going into the trade deadline. Very curious to see what potentially happens with him.
- [36:48]
Bam Adebayo
Yeah, it's an interesting spot there. He will not get a starting job back in Memphis. Jalen Wells has been an absolute steal as a second round pick that they honestly thought were was going to get a lot of mints for the Memphis hustle this season.
- [37:03]
Brian Windhorst
You can make a real argument that Jalen Wells is the rookie of the year this year.
- [37:07]
Bam Adebayo
Listen, a three and D guy contributing to a team that's on a whatever 50 plus win pace.
- [37:13]
Brian Windhorst
Listen, he's playing, he's playing 26 minutes a game. He's starting, he's scoring 11 points a game, he's shooting 39% from three and.
- [37:19]
Bam Adebayo
He takes the toughest defensive assignment, usually one through at least three, sometimes even four. But nobody, nobody executed their defensive assignment on the Memphis jerseys last night because Nick scored on, what was it, 140, 43 points.
- [37:34]
Tim Bontemps
So Mitchell Robinson is still not back. It was like one of these things in training camp. It was like, well, he might not be back till the new year. And people were like, oh my gosh, that's a long time away. It's well into the new year, still not practicing.
- [37:45]
Brian Windhorst
Last update on Friday was he's still not ready for contact and for practice.
- [37:50]
Tim Bontemps
And well, listen, I mean he had a similar surgery is to what Jared Vanderbilt did with the Lakers and similar to Vanderbilt. It was for a situation that had been a little chronic and Vanderbilt missed almost a calendar year. So, you know, and I mean, I'm not trying to say it's exactly the same, but like, you know, returning from a foot surgery is not a joke. You know, it's not talking about a guy who's.
- [38:15]
Brian Windhorst
We're talking about a guy who's played 31 games in two of the last four seasons.
- [38:20]
Tim Bontemps
Well, how many games had Vanderbilt played? It's not about the same.
- [38:24]
Brian Windhorst
I'm just saying he's had a ton of injuries. He missed a ton of time last year, now he hasn't played this year. So. So I have frankly just been assuming he's either not going to play or not going to be much of a factor the entire season, because I just don't know why you would assume the guy is going to be out there and healthy at some point. Now, maybe that will be proven wrong about that. But given Mitchell Robinson is making $14 million and given we just talk about the depth of the Knicks or the lack thereof and the how hot a topic that has been all season, it's going to be very interesting to see what happens between now and the trade deadline. And I think if Mitchell Robinson is not traded, some of that is the Knicks don't have a lot of assets left because they basically spent them all this summer to get Carl Towns and Mikhail Bridges. But I think some of that would be them saying, we believe Mitchell Robinson will be back and could be an impact player for us.
- [39:11]
Tim Bontemps
That is common refrain from their organization for months, that their deadline acquisition is Mitchell Robinson.
- [39:20]
Brian Windhorst
And I think we'll find out how much they believe in that, in part by what happens over the next 10 days. Because again, actions over words, right? If we're doing this pod next Thursday night after the deadline and Mitchell Robinson has been traded, I think that's probably, I mean, who knows, Maybe they get some incredible player from Mitchell Robinson. I think it's more likely it's an indication that they're not sure he's going to be healthy and this is the team that's obviously trying to win right now. They don't trade him, then I think you'd have to assume he's going to be out on the court and playing or at least a factor down the stretch. And if he's not, that's something that'll, you know, be reflected on Leon Rose going forward because like they were obviously all in on this team and that's the one significant piece they have left to move to try to add to the roster if they choose to. And I think a lot of that will come down to what they believe his availability is going to be.
- [40:09]
Tim Bontemps
I'll point something out with the winning streak that the Knicks have just gone on. They are now right on the Boston Celtics heels for that number two seed. And that is a reminder of the depth of the east this year compared to last year when the Celtics, who we're going to talk about in a minute, the Celtics, basically, I forget, I forgot they were in the Eastern Conference playoffs. You know, McMahon Bontemps is up there covering the Celtics. Like I'm going back and forth between New York and, and Indiana. You're going back and forth between Denver and Minnesota and. Or did you do that series?
- [40:45]
Bam Adebayo
No, no, no, no. I had the Mavs and I was.
- [40:48]
Tim Bontemps
But there was making that long trip.
- [40:49]
Bam Adebayo
From, from Dallas to Oklahoma City. Just that long, tough journey.
- [40:54]
Tim Bontemps
All these seven game series. That series was a, was a heavyweight fight and it was like Boston wasn't even in the playoffs because they barely had to break a sweat in the Eastern Conference. And that's just.
- [41:05]
Bam Adebayo
Or, or the finals, to be honest with you.
- [41:08]
Tim Bontemps
So the Celtics have lost five straight home games. They lost, they lost, they lost four home games all last year. They've lost nine so far this year. The game that they lost to the Rockets on Monday night, pretty remarkable final minute. Much credit to the Rockets. We talked about them earlier this week. I think the Celtics played poorly in that game. I think they were missing three rotation players and I thought they did a pretty good job against the Rockets. They did a nice job defending Alperin Shingoon and Jalen Green and Dylan Brooks had a career game and Alma and Thompson had a career game, although he may have more games of this nature coming forward. But I don't, I don't that loss. I'm not even like there was some defensive breakdowns in the last minute, which is not normally going to happen to them, but they're taking some losses and they're playing their frontline guys a lot of minutes. So this is the one thing like, you know, whether they have, you know, whether they're the two seed or the one seed or the three seed even, you know, I think they'd prefer to be the two to have home court in the second round because that's potentially a tough series with the, with the Knicks. But their minutes for their key guys are up. Jalen Brown's playing more minutes, Derek White's playing more minutes. Tatum's playing more minutes. They're playing more minutes and they're losing more. It'd be one thing if they were taking some losses because they're, you know, their three point variance is down and, and they're, you know, their, their effort level isn't there. They're, they're trying to win these games. They're just getting beat. And so, you know, we've been talking about this for weeks now. Bond temps. Because I think they're 3 and 9 their last 12. I'm not worried about him as a team, but I am not thrilled that they're expending so much energy and still losing these games.
- [42:40]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, I mean, it's been a, like we've talked about, it's been a weird season. I mean, even during this stretch, they're 13 and 11 in their last 24 games. They're eighth in offense. They're fourth in defense on their third net rating. God, 13 and 11.
- [42:52]
Tim Bontemps
Great. I know, it's great.
- [42:54]
Bam Adebayo
That does not add up.
- [42:56]
Brian Windhorst
No, so like, you know, and they, they're three and five in clutch games in those games. So they've lost some close games, but, you know, I mean, they just have sort of been in a funk. And look, I think when you look at their team, this is a team that obviously has played deep in the playoffs the last several years in a row. They had multiple guys playing in the Olympics this summer. They then come back and they go to Abu Dhabi in October. And then Chris Das Porzingis missed the first couple months of the season. So I, I do think there's some fatigue. I do think, I don't think boredom is the right word, but I do think there is a bit of a, you know, sort of like the, the Cavs in the, the back half of the, the, you know, the, the LeBron Cavs part two stint, you know, sort of believing that they're going to be able to take on whoever they take on in the east without much trouble. Not without much trouble, but they, they feel confident they can play anybody and win. And they, but the other, on the other side of it, and we talked about this recently. I don't remember who it was that brought it up. I know we talked about in the pod. I think it was you that brought it up there, McMahon. But it's been in my head ever since we had this similar conversation last year about Denver basically all year. And it was. Nobody was ever worried about Denver. Denver's awesome. They've got the best player, they're going to win again. And then they get into the second round of the playoffs. They're playing Minnesota. The series gets to seven games. They're up I think 20 in game seven.
- [44:21]
Bam Adebayo
Yeah.
- [44:22]
Brian Windhorst
And they just ran out of gas.
- [44:23]
Tim Bontemps
Still, still amazing that they, that they lost that game.
- [44:27]
Brian Windhorst
And it, and it just, it does it that since I heard that comparison, it stuck in the back of my mind that I don't think that's going to happen to this team. And I think they're, I would pick them to beat everybody in the east. But we're talking now about a 24 game sample where they have been struggling to get wins. And I, I do think the comparisons with Denver last year are pretty interesting and it would be nice to see them snap out of this funk at some point soon.
- [44:53]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [44:53]
Bam Adebayo
And, and in Dallas, you know, they won that game. But there was a, a lot of discussion just about kind of this extended mediocrity is maybe too strong. But you know, they've been pretty average for well over a month now. So there's a lot of discussion about that. That's where poor Zingus had the whole Lions and house cats quote. Readily admit that they haven't been as, as sharp that they, they need to find that killer instinct, as he put it. You know, the focus. But it's hard when you're coming off of a championship run. It's kind of midway through the regular season and you just want to kind of, you know, look at the counter, like how long till the playoffs start? That sort of a thing.
- [45:34]
Tim Bontemps
But when I've watched them, I haven't, I don't, I mean I thought they've looked tired.
- [45:38]
Bam Adebayo
Well.
- [45:41]
Tim Bontemps
I don't think they've looked unfocused.
- [45:43]
Bam Adebayo
Derek White talked about the fatigue and just, you know, just like you guys laid out, obviously they played, they were the last team standing so deep, you know, long playoff run, even though not a particularly stressful playoff run. But they were playing for a while.
- [45:57]
Brian Windhorst
Right?
- [45:57]
Bam Adebayo
Right. Guys playing for the national team. And then look when you're the defending champ, not that the Celtics weren't getting, you know, it's not like teams were overlooking the Celtics before, but when you, when you are the defending champ and you know, the clear cut favorites going into a season, like it's different. Yeah, it's different. And so they're dealing with all that. And the other thing that's different is the Knicks are a significantly better team than last year and the Cavs are a significantly better team than last year.
- [46:28]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah. And look, I'm not making sweeping statements in January, but there is a reason no one has repeated in seven years.
- [46:34]
Bam Adebayo
It's hard to do.
- [46:35]
Tim Bontemps
It's hard. McMahon. By 9am today, Bontems had already flown to Miami.
- [46:41]
Bam Adebayo
Oh my God.
- [46:42]
Tim Bontemps
You were just boarding your plane to San Francisco and you were. You were surly.
- [46:48]
Bam Adebayo
I. Listen, I don't operate well before double digits.
- [46:53]
Brian Windhorst
Don't operate well, that would have been.
- [46:54]
Bam Adebayo
A good place to stop, but there's a reason the policy is the double digit boarding flights are, you know, got to crack double digits.
- [47:03]
Tim Bontemps
Well, that is McMahon sleep update. So congratulations.
- [47:08]
Bam Adebayo
The overrunner was 0.5. We hit it.
- [47:13]
Tim Bontemps
All right. Thank you for watching and listening to Hoop Collective. Thank you to Bon Thompson McMahon. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. We will talk to you later this week.
- [47:21]
Bam Adebayo
Adios, amigos.
- [47:36]
Brian Windhorst
In case you didn't know, these young men are driven. Quite remarkable, magnificent and unmistakable. These are the prodigies, the savants, the ones we've been waiting for. And they are not asking for you.
- [47:49]
Bam Adebayo
To pass the baton.
- [47:50]
Brian Windhorst
They are methodically planning the perfect moment to take it. A new generation of Toyota drivers are here and they want you to know one thing. You can't stop my drive.