← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Reaction: Wemby Leads Competition In NBA All-Star Game + Adam Silver On Tanking & Much More
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Hoop Collective: Reaction: Wemby Leads Competition In NBA All-Star Game + Adam Silver On Tanking & Much More
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- [00:01]
Wendy
Monster Energy.
- [00:02]
Bobby Marks
Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra, that's.
- [00:05]
Wendy
The OG it kicked off this whole.
- [00:07]
Bobby Marks
Zero sugar energy drink thing.
- [00:09]
Wendy
But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch.
- [00:19]
Vince Goodwill
So if you've been living in the.
- [00:20]
Wendy
White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe and every single one is Zero Sugar Tap.
- [00:28]
Bobby Marks
The banner to learn more foreign.
- [00:34]
Wendy
Welcome Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening just after the All Star Game. Joining us from Naples, Florida, where he's finally gone home after weeks on end in la, is Bobby Marks.
- [00:47]
Jackson
Gentlemen, I am home. I am home. A two week journey out to Los Angeles on a double red eye. Getting home today and I am home.
- [00:58]
Wendy
A double red eye.
- [00:59]
Jackson
Well, you know, leave at midnight, connect in Houston, then connect to go to Fort Myers. So you know something else?
- [01:06]
Wendy
Yeah. You didn't go to Ryan Smith's All Star party.
- [01:11]
Jackson
You know what? I had somebody tell me that I am the new mayor of Salt Lake City. So no, I am not. But I was at a breakfast Saturday morning and I had a gentleman come up to me and ask me if I traveled with security when I'm on the road. And I said, we really at that stage of what's going on right now.
- [01:31]
Wendy
Oh my gosh. Bobby had a little back and forth with the Utah Jazz.
- [01:34]
Jackson
Well, he, he really had a, he, he, he really had a back and forth. I didn't, I didn't, I had a back. That's with somebody else, not with him. I just let him, let him speak his mind.
- [01:43]
Wendy
Well, maybe, maybe this is really well known, but I didn't know it till today when I was actually watching the end of the, the Pebble beach, the AT&T pebble beach event is that Ryan Smith has a beautiful home right on the 18th green, right on the 18th fairway or whatever at Pebble Beach. So he probably was there. You know, I don't know if I would have been there anyway. I like Ryan, but, you know, everybody has to do what they have to do when they're.
- [02:11]
Jackson
What I've learned there are certain words that touch a nerve.
- [02:15]
Wendy
That's right. Just because they're yelling at you doesn't mean that you're wrong. Joining us from Los Angeles, where he somehow got out of, into a dome in the wake of that game and made his way to his hotel before joining us is Vince Goodwill.
- [02:29]
Vince Goodwill
I've been getting bagged on by your YouTube people for not Having like a hello, friends sort of greeting or whatever.
- [02:36]
Wendy
Oh, really?
- [02:37]
Vince Goodwill
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:38]
Wendy
Like that's what Jim Nance has.
- [02:41]
Vince Goodwill
The Tims have a saying or whatever. And I'm like, I'm just a black guy that just comes on and says hello.
- [02:48]
Wendy
Yes, it should be the new thing. That's what Jim Nance does on hello Friends. Hello, hello friends. Welcome to Augusta National. I'm going to let you guys know I'm getting sick. I have a preposterously tightly scheduled week with a lot of appearances, some of which are one offs, like a speech I have Thursday in Akron, Ohio, and a charity event that I have Wednesday night. And this is. There's never a good time to get sick. But, you know, you can hear in my voice, it's gonna. I feel like when I listen back to this podcast, like on Tuesday or Wednesday, I'm gonna be like, oh, man, that was back when my voice was good. Because I think it's gonna be gone. So we'll enjoy it while it's here. Anyway.
- [03:40]
Vince Goodwill
You're giving us the best of what you got. That's what you're doing.
- [03:42]
Wendy
That's right. We're going. We're limping through. Vince. I feel like this All Star situation was like stumbling around in the desert for years and stumbling on into Miami all of a sudden. Oh, my gosh. You know, Miami is a. Is an imperfect paradise, but it is in many ways a paradise. This game was imperfect, but being delivered from the horrible hellscape that the last several All Star games have been. And so therefore it must be declared a success. That's my viewpoint. I don't know how you felt about it being there.
- [04:21]
Vince Goodwill
I thought it was a massive success. I think, you know, speaking of being yelled at by Twitter, I've been yelled at by Twitter over the past couple of days because I said the quality of the All Star Game has gotten progressively worse over the past five or six years, as if that's some type of news flash.
- [04:38]
Bobby Marks
And.
- [04:38]
Vince Goodwill
And what I did say on first take with my good friend Stephen A. Smith was that all it takes is one maniac, just one crazy person, to up the tempo, to up the care factor. And that person was Victor Wembanyama. You wanna know why? That man basically threatened to embarrass everybody tonight by blocking their shots, by doing all this other stuff. And it shamed Anthony Edwards and some of those other guys into playing a lot harder. And I for one, gotta give him a round of applause. Cause yesterday, I don't know if you saw this, Wendy you might have been.
- [05:16]
Wendy
I sure did.
- [05:18]
Vince Goodwill
And I thought it was kind of indicative.
- [05:19]
Wendy
He said, he basically. He said it is what it is. Right? Is that what he said at this point? Basically, it is what it is.
- [05:25]
Vince Goodwill
Yep. He said it is what it is. He basically said it's not going to change.
- [05:28]
Wendy
Right.
- [05:29]
Vince Goodwill
And then Victor Wembanyama goes out there and starts blocking a couple of shots. Maybe one was a goal 10. And it starts getting everybody's competitive juices going like you saw guys breaking a sweat. And I think, Bobby, you can agree with me on this one. Nobody wants anybody to get hurt. Nobody wants anyone acting as if this is game seven of the NBA Finals or a high level playoff game or a high level regular season game. Just want guys to try. And they actually tried and they actually cared. And I don't care if the last game was a blow, that the old guys got blown out by the young guys. I thought it was kind of fitting. You got three good games out of four. You had 36 competitive minutes. Round of applause for the NBA. Bravo.
- [06:11]
Jackson
You know what? When, when Jackson, our producer, asked me to come on, I thought, oh, boy, we're going to be talking, we're going to be griping, we're going to be talking. And then I sit in my chair in the first minute of the first game, and here comes Victor. Block a shot, have a dong. And I said, I think we might have something here a little bit. And as you said, that set the tone. It's unfortunate. I know we're not putting asterisks next to, to teams in this little mini tournament here. It's unfortunate that the international team basically ran out of bodies here. When you look at Luca and then you look at Jokic as far as where they were. But what Victor did, and I give credit to all the All Stars did, was it made us watch for two or two and a half hours. I went out and got something to eat, and you know what I did? I put on the game while I was eating. I wouldn't have done that in the past here. And yes, when we got to the last game, guys ran out of gas. I mean, that is the reality of, I think that Team LeBron team had played. Was that their third game in a row they had played?
- [07:19]
Wendy
Yeah, they played three in a row.
- [07:20]
Jackson
But I saw guys I had never seen, they had showed. Someone had posted a highlight of. I think Jason Tatum set the record of like 55 points in a prior All Star. Someone was putting highlights on. I think Drew Hanlon, his trainer, put it on there. And Drew's a terrific person, Ed. And I was watching this was from three years ago and like the def. Like, I was like, oh my. Like I was like, that's why we were so up in arms about what was going on. And then I watched defense, I watched guys compete. I watched, I saw LeBron run back and try to block shots. Like it was like 2016 again. That's all we wanted. That's it.
- [07:55]
Wendy
Yeah. I'm going to be honest with you, I wasn't planning on watching it. And then with Victor kind of threw the gauntlet down relatively. I mean he didn't, you know, he didn't get rubber megaphone, but he said he was planning on trying. And I knew that he was, you know, the world team was the first team up. And so I said, all right, let me give it a chance. That's what I did. I don't know what the ratings will be. You know, the whole All Star weekend was early. I know people were, people were. I saw people, you know, saying, good job. NBA having, you know, the dunk contest at 5:00 or whatever, the three point contest at 5:00'. Clock. That was not the NBA's decision. That was NBC. They had winter Olympics are going on right now. That's, you know, the Winter Olympics had never been a thing because on the same network. And so they, the NBC, you know, gets, you know, great ratings. They pay enormous amount of money for the Olympics and so they're going to put that in primetime. That's why it happened. It wasn't the NBA's call, but here nor there, but it, you know, I don't know how many people have. Would have given it a chance. We'll see what the ratings say. But I gave it a chance and I watched the game be instantaneously competitive and I stayed with it. And I was totally prepared to do this podcast tonight and not talk about the All Star Game. I was totally prepared to.
- [09:11]
Jackson
Oh, I heard, I heard. Listen, when I was driving, I was driving back from the airport today, I listened to your the Pod, the most recent podcast, and you laid out the gauntlet of things you will not talk about. And one of them, I believe was, was the All Star along with Jonathan Kaminga and Tanking also. So I was wondering what we were going to be talking about here.
- [09:33]
Wendy
Yeah, well, we were not going to be talking about the All Star Game. But then, you know, I thought Victor's quote after this game tonight, which I just, you know, Victor is refreshing in so many ways, but he Said, I think being honest with ourselves is good. It's a game we love. It's a game I personally cherish. So being competitive is the least I can do. I mean, no notes on that comment. Yeah, no notes. And you know, he. The thing about Victor is, you know, he was furious that his team lost. They lost in overtime in the first game. It feels weird to say first game. I kept thinking to myself, first quarter. But they lost in the first game in overtime with Ant having a huge overtime. And then the second game that they played, they lost to Kawhi, which I think is. We'll talk about that for a second here. But I will say that, you know, obviously no Shank Gildis, Alexander, no Iannis, Luka Doncic and Nikola Jokic played, but they only played five minutes and then they were done. Luka was, you know, hadn't even played his last four, I think games with the Lakers. And Joker is still protecting that knee. So I appreciate that they went out there and played. But I'm also going to halt on anybody on Monday trying to say, well, I knew the world team wasn't good enough. The guys who were able went. I said the same thing.
- [11:06]
Vince Goodwill
I have a suggestion or maybe a conspiracy theory for you guys. Wendy, do we think that there is some secret NBA American players chat like text message thread that's going on between Ant and Kevin Durant and LeBron James? Because they've.
- [11:24]
Wendy
I'm not talking about secret Kevin Durant.
- [11:29]
Vince Goodwill
Excellent point, Excellent. Go do your own research. We'll say, go do your trending on Twitter right now. No, no, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. Down the rabbit hole earlier today, man, that's a whole. It's never ending. That's what I'm gonna say. It's never ending. But kd, back to Kevin Durant's point of what he said when I think the Rockets played on Wednesday or whatever, and he said, you guys don't talk about Jokic and Luka. Right? Stick that point there. Then LeBron in his media session earlier today because he has to do his own media session on All Star Sunday, he says, you know, I like east and west, you know, I don't know about all this other stuff. And he kind of said it with a little bit of like a wink, right? And then in the post game, and it wasn't in the post game session with us, it was the post game session, I think he was on NBA TV with our colleague Chris Haynes and he said something along the lines of, you know, Luka and Jokic weren't out there bringing it, so, you know, we had an easier time. I wonder if the American NBA players maybe look at this whole. The public desire to have them humbled by international players as something that they took personally, or that there's a perception that the American players need to be humbled by the international guys and they. I think they're asking why. Maybe that's a greater sociological question. That's not necessarily fit for this podcast. But I do think there's. I don't think these guys are saying things coincidentally.
- [13:07]
Wendy
Okay, I respect that. I would say let's just for the sake of discussion, say that that's true. I can't prove it, but it's reasonable. You say it's reasonable. Let's say two things. One, the international players have been dominating the awards. The big award, right? The mvp. So that's number one. So right out of that, the international players are coming at the NBA, the Americans, as who the best players are. Okay, that's number one. Number two, isn't that classic? That's like, let's look like what KD said was classic. Whataboutism, right? Like, when you get in a corner in anything, I don't care if you're in second grade or if you're playing in the NBA, you get accused of something, you know, you're. You know, you're in the corner, you're going to point, go, what about them? What about those guys? You know, you know, you know, that's one thing I didn't like. Like, Durant was correct that, you know, Luka and Jokic were guilty, as guilty as anybody else, of giving BS effort in the last few All Star Games. I did not like that sentiment because he's, you know, it's like, you know, don't blame us for not caring. They don't care either. Like that. That is not a defense. It's not an acceptable defense. And I will say that. You know, and Edwards, after he won the mvp, the Kobe Bryant trophy, which, by the way, a lot of times I feel like Kobe can help everybody out here by just being invoked. And let me just say this. If Kobe Bryant was at that press conference that Katie said that, what would he have said? What would he have said?
- [14:50]
Vince Goodwill
He would have called out Katie. He would have called out Katie. Katie is great at creating straw man. That's what I will say about Kevin. He is great. He has learned from LeBron at the school of creating the narrative that you can then shoot down with a very broad bullet KD said, I watched all these All Star games from decades before.
- [15:12]
Wendy
He said the 60s. He said, I went back to the 60s.
- [15:15]
Vince Goodwill
He ain't watching all star games from the 60s.
- [15:18]
Wendy
Let's just take him at his word. Let's just take him at his word that he did.
- [15:21]
Vince Goodwill
And even if he did, right, and he says this Game seven defense that you guys were talking about, that wasn't being played. Kevin, nobody ever said that All Star defense was at an NBA Finals level. Nobody. At least tell me if I'm wrong. Nobody has ever said that. My colleague David Dennis, who I was on First Take with, they created this sort of sentiment that you guys are saying that the game was played at such a high level back then. Nobody has ever said that. All we said was, hey, just provide a little resistance. That's all.
- [15:57]
Wendy
What would Kobe say? W W, K S? That's all I'm going to say about that. But I will say this. This game, this performance tonight, does not clean up. I mean, first off, you guys know I cover international basketball. Dragged my ass all over the planet, and it's been extraordinarily rewarding. I've loved it. And what I say is, is that the US Remains the basketball power, but the US Margin for error is now almost nil. You know, you gotta. You gotta go around square corners and jump through round hoops. You know, you got to run out the ground ball is, you know, however you want to say it. And this way, this went down tonight. You know, I'm not going to allow that because giannis didn't play, SGA didn't play, and Jokic and Luka were not 100%, and they just sort of came out and waved their cap. But even still, because of another. The other international stud, Wemby, you know, Ant said, you know, Wemby made him do it, Wemby got him going. You know, so good job. I'd like to see it again. I don't even know where All Star is next year.
- [17:06]
Vince Goodwill
Phoenix.
- [17:07]
Wendy
Phoenix.
- [17:08]
Vince Goodwill
The Wilbon All Star Game.
- [17:10]
Wendy
Oh, my God.
- [17:11]
Vince Goodwill
The Wilbon All Star Weekend.
- [17:13]
Wendy
You know what? I tried not to go to All Star Weekend, but when you put it that way, Wilbon's set up in Phoenix.
- [17:21]
Vince Goodwill
The compound aspirational. Wait, we can't use that word. Oh, man.
- [17:29]
Wendy
It is aspirational, though.
- [17:32]
Vince Goodwill
It's inspirational. Aspirational. You can plant trees.
- [17:36]
Jackson
Speaking of.
- [17:37]
Wendy
Yeah, so I gotta say, I said this one, though, when the reserves came out, that there have been Supreme Court decisions that have leaked before being published more. More recently than there's been leaking of the voting from the coaches All Star vote. The coaches vote for the all star reserves there. I've never gotten my hands or even. I've never seen anybody get their hands on it. I've never seen anybody even claim like, oh, you know what? A source told me that, you know, player X got three more votes than player Y. I've never seen. This is the most, this is the most lock and key thing that you know that pretty much in the NBA. I mean, one year I got the Bobby, one year I got the NBA's books leaked to me. I could see how much every, every NBA team spent and made on everything. And I still have never even sniffed or anybody's even sniffed the. The coaches vote for All Star.
- [18:43]
Jackson
Well, no, I mean it. Cause it's, it leads to, to like, you know, dear Fox comes in as a replacement, right? And then you're thinking, well, where was he on the pecking order of votes? He must have been right, right there. Where was, you know, where was Michael Porter Jr. Where was Dylan Brooks? Where were like some of these other names that we, we've heard? And I've never been around for a long time. I've never seen the coaches votes what it is.
- [19:06]
Wendy
Never. You know, there's no penalty for them going, oh, yeah, I don't, you know, if I played Dylan Brooks for the next month, I'd be like, yep, I voted for Dylan. I don't know, my other peers, I guess they didn't vote for him. Yep, I voted for Michael Porter. Yep, I voted for, for Brandon Ingrill. I can't believe these people that didn't.
- [19:24]
Jackson
Vote like, I voted for Bill Belichick. Right, sure. We all can't prove it.
- [19:28]
Wendy
Yeah, I can't prove it.
- [19:30]
Bobby Marks
More HOOPP Collective podcast after this.
- [19:33]
Wendy
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Wendy
Your partner in protecting both your people and your facilities. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by. Okay, having said that, Kawhi was not voted as an All Star and I was stunned. Actually, I wasn't stunned. I was big time eye roll. Because Kawhi is having probably the best regular season of his career.
- [21:47]
Vince Goodwill
Now this is a man who's been new 27. 2017 was really, really good.
- [21:54]
Wendy
Take a look at the numbers, man.
- [21:56]
Vince Goodwill
I know, I know, I know.
- [21:58]
Wendy
He's averaging 28 points and he's toeing the line for 50, 40, 90. He's not quite there, but he's close. All right, let's step away from it's the best.
- [22:12]
Jackson
He.
- [22:12]
Wendy
It's close to the best, if not the best. Over the last month, especially he's been top three player in the NBA. Top five.
- [22:22]
Vince Goodwill
I'll take it a step further. If the Clippers had not gotten off to such a horrific start to the season, let's just say they played 500 basketball before or even a step below 500 basketball before getting to this point, what, 21 out of 27 or whatever it is, we would be talking about Kawhi Leonard as mvp.
- [22:45]
Wendy
I agree.
- [22:45]
Vince Goodwill
Yeah. And he's, he's been the best player in basketball since he started actually playing.
- [22:52]
Wendy
So I feel like he's missed 13 games. So he's sort of borderline whether he'll make the requisite 65. But there's a whole bunch of guys who are out already and he. It's not, he's not one of them because he did have that knee thing that bothered him for a little bit. But he is and I'll just point out Bobby that he finished last season as well as he's finished any season as a Clipper. He, they, you know Aaron Gordon tipped in a shot with 1/10 of a second left. Otherwise I don't know now what. So Kawhi has 31 points in 12 minutes of this game tonight, including a dagger three over the top of Carl Towns which you know I rewounded to watch Carl's face when he turned around and saw that go in. So what was that Bobby? What was that game in Dallas? I think he had a 40 point elimination game in Dallas in the playoffs. I think that game and this game and this night the two best moments for him as a Clipper because it's in the Clippers arena. All this storm around the Clippers and he delivers that performance.
- [24:00]
Jackson
Oh, I agree. I mean I think that was as good of a stretch that we've seen certainly from Kawhi in a 12 minute stretch that I, I probably have ever seen here. You know it's, it's interesting. You could have, you know the, the, the. The most interesting part about it too is you know the ball in his hands to win the game and you're thinking like you know the best thing for team Europe is for this thing to go to overtime. You know like because of all the different rule or yeah.
- [24:30]
Wendy
They need. They needed to win by three.
- [24:32]
Jackson
Yeah and everything.
- [24:33]
Vince Goodwill
But.
- [24:34]
Jackson
And you're right, a guy that did not make was not selected by the coaches has to be a replacement voting by you know, the commissioner. But yeah, I mean I. You were kind of mesmerized and you knew like when we got to the last game all these guys had. They had nothing left in the tank. Like there was just like nothing there. But um. I give him credit man on a. There's. It seems like nothing distract bothers him. Right. You're as you said there's all this stuff swirling and we hear it and when is it. When is this going to be resolved and is it coming soon and was it him being left off a result of what was going. You know every.
- [25:15]
Wendy
How could it not be?
- [25:16]
Jackson
Everything.
- [25:17]
Wendy
How could it not be?
- [25:18]
Jackson
Yeah, everything that's being talked about just. But my goodness gracious, I felt like I was watching like Toronto. It was feel like I was watching a little bit of San Antonio in him all in that One stretch of minutes there.
- [25:34]
Vince Goodwill
It was incredible. You get to see, and I've said this before, maybe I feel like I've said this on this podcast or another one. But he looks like A Cyborg of 2nd 3 Peat, Michael Jordan Economy of moves, just stronger than everybody. The remaining athleticism he uses to his sort of just his advantage just to, you know, just to get up enough space. Like with all of the noise around him, you forget he's an incredible basketball player. Like he's going to go to the hall of Fame. And we don't think of him that way. We don't. Oh yeah, we think of him as two time finals MVP and everything else. Oh, and he's quiet. But I think one thing that we have not said, and maybe this is a fault of ours as a media as a whole, you have to be incredibly resilient to come back from the repeated devastating injuries that he's had. Like you have to legit be able to attack the rehab to come back from the injury that he had with the spurs. That ankle, that nagging thing. And then he was dragging the leg around in Toronto. Then he had another surgery, then he tore the acl. Then he's had another surgery. Like I count like at least three or four lower leg procedures that he's had over the course of his career. And that to the fact when he comes back and he looks like the version of himself that everybody has been wanting to see six years ago. Like it's amazing that he has come back repeatedly to be some version of this type of player. And I don't think anybody expected him. Wendy, maybe you did when you were on Clippers island early, earlier in the preseason and I made fun of you being on Clippers Island.
- [27:21]
Wendy
A tough place to be.
- [27:22]
Vince Goodwill
No, look, the stock that you have purchased, you held onto and Wendy, I bow down to you. Like if they hadn't, if they hadn't started the season like this, Wendy, we would look at them as a championship contending team or at least a party crasher that's going to get to the second round and give somebody a real scare because they had that horrendous start. We don't think of them, period. But he's been amazing. The longer the short to say he's been amazing and he's been amazingly resilient and on a human level to some degree, like good for him to have this moment. I was this close to voting him for MVP of the All Star Game. I voted Ant because his team won and they blew him out in the Last game. But Kawhi had that type of display tonight.
- [28:07]
Wendy
Yeah, I mean, ant was the correct winner. I mean, they, they. They rolled in the championship game. It's very hard to. By the way, speaking of stock, my Clippers island stock is down about as much as Microsoft stock, you know. You know, Microsoft stock's done the last six months. It's down 23%.
- [28:25]
Vince Goodwill
No, he's lost a lot of money. I know Ballmer's lost a lot of money and still has a lot of money left.
- [28:30]
Wendy
40. Lost 40 billion.
- [28:31]
Vince Goodwill
That's insane. And he was happy tonight.
- [28:34]
Wendy
He lost.
- [28:34]
Vince Goodwill
He was still happy.
- [28:35]
Wendy
He was thrilled. He lost off $40 billion, which is only 23%. That's the other part of that. Hey, I got good news and bad news. What's the bad news? Oh, you lost $40 billion. $40 billion. My God. What the heck could be the good news?
- [28:53]
Jackson
5.
- [28:54]
Wendy
It's only 23% of your whole. Oh, oh, okay, Good. Yes, he was thrilled tonight, showing off his arena. And I remember he. Were you in there, Vince, when he was yelling to the crowd on the mic, and he. And he reminded everybody this is the place where the 2028 Olympics are going to be, which had a friend of mine from FIBA who was in town over the week to take a look at the venue. It's the first time to be at the venue. They're getting ready for the. Get ready, getting ready for the, you know, thinking about the Olympics. But anyway, the crazy thing about this. Bobby said this before, but the Clippers have waited all these years, seven years for Kawhi to be this player. He was. He was showing major, you know, and here's the thing. Like, you know, you knock on wood, but you have no idea whether he can remain healthy. But, you know, after waiting all this time and they had a major hint that he was coming this direction last year, the way he finished last year, you know, he had the most recent surgery was two years ago. And so he, he, you know, was out at the beginning of last year and then started playing last year. And then by the end of last season, was. Was looking great. You know, continued to do workouts through the summer into June to like, prepare his body of what it would be like to have gone through a full playoffs. A full playoffs comes into this year. It's one of the reasons why I was so high on them. And so it's not like he came out of nowhere. He's been building towards this for the last, you know, 16 months or so. And now is when they Pull the plug. Now, there's a chicken and egg thing here because James Harden obviously applied pressure to them to make a decision like whether they were going to pay him or not. And whatever answer that the Clippers gave obviously was not satisfactory to James because he went through with the trade thing. So I'm not for sure saying that, you know, it was all like an organizational decision. But, you know, they traded him for a player who is indefinitely injured and, and then they traded Zubots as well. So, you know, I wonder if they were held in, if they could be 100% honest about how they feel about that decision right now. Maybe it'll end up being a good decision. Maybe those draft picks will end up being really valuable. But that was a Clipper fan and I know several big time Clipper fans, season ticket level Clipper fans, who. This one guy I talked to who's a very wealthy Clipper fan who's been a supporter for many years, he said that this is perverse seeing, seeing Kawhi be this good, knowing the team can't, you know, probably is not going anywhere. I know Vince said, could they scare somebody? Yeah, they could still scare somebody, but it's a, that's a, it's a tough hand right now. You know, there's a lot of unknowns about the Clippers. Maybe the Clippers have a better handle on the unknowns than they're willing to admit. I don't know, maybe they don't. But either way it's a, it's a tough reality.
- [31:49]
Jackson
You know, the writing is kind of on the wall where, you know, and he quiet has been very upfront about it where he says, hey, we went, we were the oldest team in the NBA, you know, change part of the business. A 26 year old in Garland, two future picks that could turn out to be pretty good. Him on an expiring contract will be one of the most fascinating storylines this offseason along with a lot of others. But he's kind of the, the guy that's been there, you know, since, since 2019 and as you said, have kind of has fun, has hit his stride on the court and health wise both kind of go hand in hand. And now all of a sudden we're kind of turning the wheel on this Clipper team that's been built with by veterans to now the youth movement. And how does he fit in long term? Because although you could say, you know, a 33 or 34 year old, you know, when you get to a certain age, I feel like he's getting better right now. And I think what, what's happened is it's almost like when you put that night, that pretty car in the garage for a long time. You don't put many miles on those legs. Some guys hit their strides at a different age.
- [32:58]
Wendy
That's true. We'll have to. I don't know, we'll have to see how, you know. It's just. It's hard to say. I'm not even necessarily second guessing them because they have more information than I do about a lot of things. But it's tough, Vince, just talking to Clipper fans that I know. It's. It's a. It's a tough reality. It's. It's an ultimate, you know, bittersweet situation. It.
- [33:21]
Vince Goodwill
It's funny. I just looked it up and I. I don't have the historical numbers of context, but Kawhi Leonard's only played 25,000 minutes in his career or right up against it. Right. That feels like an insanely low number for somebody who's been in the league since 2011. To Bobby's point of having low mileage now, there's atrophy on the body, but it's low mileage on the body, too. And with that, Wendy, the question is not Kawhi as an expiring contract. The question to me is, what do the Clippers decide to do if even they keep Kawhi next year like they have been wanting and openly saying 2027 is going to be the year that we figure stuff out. Hit the reset button, whatever it is. Right. Lawrence Frank got an extension. Ty Lue is still there. Like, whatever it's going to be will be. The rubber will meet the road when they decide, whatever they decide on Kawhi Leonard at age 35. And you can only, I think, what is it, Bobby? You can only get two year extensions going into age 36.
- [34:28]
Jackson
Yeah, the over 38 rule. Like curry. Curry's in that boat. There's a bunch of them.
- [34:32]
Vince Goodwill
So I'm very fascinated by what the Clippers, if they keep Kawhi and Kawhi still looks like this. Do they say, let's re up for more Kawhi Leonard business? Or does Kawhi Leonard enter the marketplace as a free agent that can play with the Lakers or play somewhere else as a very marketable third piece or second piece or whatever championship style piece some 10 years after the last time he was a last piece to a championship. That is fascinating to me.
- [35:04]
Wendy
I feel like in this situation you got to raise or fold Bobby, which is you know, you either extend him or you trade him.
- [35:11]
Vince Goodwill
Yeah, Yep.
- [35:11]
Jackson
I agree.
- [35:12]
Wendy
You know, I think that's the case with a lot of, you know, that's like, that's what happened with, like Trey Young, for example. The Hawks folded, not the, you know, not to imply they, like, you know, that was bad. Like they, they made a decision. We're not going to, we're not going to extend them. So we're going to, we're going to trade them. You know, that's, that's what happened with John Morant. You know, no extension, no trade. And, you know, with all due respect, I know Giannis gave an interview to Malika and Giannis said more words about wanting to be a buck with more qualifiers on him and pretty fast going to put Giannis on the list of things. I'm not going to talk about, honest with you, because at least I'm not going to talk about qualified Giannis responses where he says, you know, where he says a powerful statement and then says for now or whatever he said. But Giannis doesn't extend, you know, it's sort of on his, it's razorfold on his side, too. You know, Giannis, seriously like Giannis, if you are happy in Milwaukee, God bless you. It would be amazing if you played your whole career there. Sign the extension. I don't really, you know what I mean? Sign the extension. I promise you. Sign the extension or even announce you're signing the extension. No one will say a word. They'll be gone.
- [36:21]
Bobby Marks
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- [39:03]
Wendy
All right, so Adam Silver had a very meaty, that's a word probably one of the most consequential media press conferences he's had where like there were so many different topics and every single topic was a strong question. Vince, you had a question. Which one was yours? I can't remember.
- [39:29]
Vince Goodwill
It was about expansion and relocation.
- [39:32]
Wendy
Right.
- [39:32]
Vince Goodwill
And I was asking, do you have to add two teams if you're going to, you know, add, and if not adding two teams, could you add one and relocate another? And I did double back because he only really answered the two team question and he said relocation is now on the table. So that, that perked some ears up.
- [39:52]
Wendy
Stop. What he said while toasting Giannis was relocation is not on the table right now. Which I don't mean it's on the table, but, you know, he said, right now it's one of, it's one of those Giannis things. I'm not looking to talk about it more. I'm just sort of tying it back To Giannis. You know, a good lawyer like Adam Silver never leaves himself in a corner. Anyway, he was asked about tanking, which we'll talk about in a second. I won't talk about it. You guys can talk about it. Talked about expansion and relocation, which he shot down. Talked about the WNBA negotiations, which are not resolved. Talked about the Clippers investigation, which he said, I haven't come to any decisions about because it's not resolved because they're not running the investigation. Was asked about Giannis being involved with a prediction market and answered it like it was a sports book, when prediction markets and sports books are different things. But we're not going to focus on that here. He didn't. He was asked one direct question, and he answered another, which, you know, again, that's what a lawyer does. He was asked about NBA Europe, several questions about NBA Europe, which looks like it's going to be. Happen. It's going to happen. What else he'd asked about. I think that's about it. But anyway, every single one was relevant. Okay, so, Vince, you were there. What was your. Some of your big takeaways from what he said?
- [41:17]
Vince Goodwill
I think, like you said, Wendy, Adam Silver is a lawyer, and he can filibuster with the best of them. You know what I mean? Like, a lot of times you feel like, short of the All Star press conference we had in 2022 in Cleveland, which got really, really contentious between Adam and the media, and that's the only time I can recall Adam really sparring with us. But like you said, expansion, relocation, the prediction markets, all that type of stuff. You know, Giannis's investment in it. Talking about, you know, the Clippers and where they go in his broad powers as commissioner. He said he was not going to overstep as far as a potential penalty on the Clippers if something were to come from this, you know, aspirations, investigation, whatever that looks like. You know, who knows when something could come down. But for me, yeah, the biggest stuff was the tanking Bobby and the thought of maybe I'll take away, you know, maybe any. Everything's on the table. Maybe I'll take away draft picks like I thought that was. He almost sounded exasperated and frustrated that teams or franchises are not looking out for. For the better business of the league. It's almost like he lives in an idealistic world. Sometimes when talking to owners and teams and franchises, it's like he's disappointed that they're not. That they're looking out for themselves as opposed to looking out for the business. The ethics of the league, I think that's what to me came across was like disappointment and frustration as opposed to, hey, dude, you have the power to really change things. And I've been talking to some people since that press conference. They've thrown out about a lot of different suggestions to curb tanking. Some things are a little more radical. But, Wendy, they've got some issues that they really have to address and I think they're going to have to take stronger stances than what they've been taking.
- [43:21]
Jackson
Bobby, I would say the rarity of getting two questions on tanking in the same press conference. He got it the first to lead off and then kind of came back, back in the middle somewhere. My takeaways from that are that he does not want to be in a position to be Big Brother, overlooking everything and being in a position to watch, have somebody watch every game and scrutinize why players are being taken out at certain points of the game, why players are not playing in the fourth quarter. And he does not. They don't want to do that. He said it's not healthy for the league for that. And listen, it's a slippery slope. It is a slippery slope. When you start finding teams and taking away draft picks like it, it's. There's a, a lot to interpret there. It's not, it's not like investigating a fight on the court and finding why Isaiah Stewart elected to run off the bench. That's, that's not it. The ability to remove draft picks. Interesting. I was thinking the league has dual authority to dock teams already when we have, whether it be salary cap circumvention or tamp, free agent tampering. When you tamper with a player. We've seen that happen with second round picks. But I got a feel, I got the feeling after listening to that that they have open ears from the com. They'll have open ears from the competition committee about doing something and instituting something. I don't know what it will be. But like you, Vince, I've gotten a lot. I've gotten texts, multiple texts from teams on, hey. And really just like, hey, what do you think? This is what I'm, we're. This is what I was, I'm thinking. We're thinking about. Yeah, it sounds, oh, this is a little radical, you know, like, this is a little radical here. But I do think, you know, I do think it's. I think they're open to more about how to change. He made that comment. He said, you know, I think he had an economist was, you know, with talking. And they said, like, you guys are doing things backwards. Right. You're incentivizing teams, you know? Right.
- [45:38]
Wendy
Yeah. If you, if you picked a management consultant, you know, would actually be an interesting, you know, someone who didn't know anything about basketball was brought in to study the league. They would say to a team, you should lose as much as possible to get a. The best possible single player. And if you're advising the league, a consultant would say, why do you have your teams have an incentive to lose? I mean, this is the paradox that exists then. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. Please jump into anything. I'm wrong. The NBA basketball in general is a sport that is disproportionately driven by superstars. So compared to other sports, one grade player is much more valuable in basketball than other team sports because not only is there only five guys on the court, but you play both offense and defense. Quarterback is amazing, but only plays half the game. Right. Pitcher is amazing. You know, pitches once every five days. Right. Batter can be, you know, Shohei Ohtani, he can pitch and he can, and he can bat, but he only bats four or five times a game and only pitches once every five days. Right. Still nowhere near the way a player like, you know, Michael Jordan can affect the game. Right. So the NBA, you know, basketball, and therefore the NBA is disproportionately driven by superstars. Okay? The 30 NBA teams operate voluntarily. Maybe not, you know, wholeheartedly, but voluntarily. They all agree. They all play in a socialistic system. They play in a socialist system. Right. The weaker teams benefit from the sharing of the richer teams. The teams that are very good and win help subsidize the teams that lose by the rules. Is that true?
- [47:30]
Vince Goodwill
Yeah.
- [47:31]
Wendy
Okay. The decisions that are made by the teams over the last 25 years and particularly over the last five to 10 years have largely become data driven. Strategy and data driven. I mean, Bobby, 20 years ago, was there a strategy department in any.
- [47:49]
Jackson
None.
- [47:49]
Wendy
People say analytics, but it's not just analytics, it's strategy. They have strategists, right. You know, and the decisions en masse, the big level treetop decisions, almost always are driven with revenue first. So this is the data set that we have. We have disproportionate to stars socialism. Revenue generation is more important than anything. Volume is more important than quality, which is another way of saying revenue guides everything. And the teams themselves have sort of become AI operations more than field operations. So what I would just say to you is, how do you solve tanking in that kind of environment, I don't think you can. I don't think it can be done. I think it can be, you know, you could take the edge off it a little bit, but if you have 30 teams in a socialistic system, I don't think you can do it. And by the way, just in case you think the NBA is really super crazy worried about it, they're going to add two more teams, I think. Okay. They cannot get their arms around tanking. Adam Silver even said, I didn't know this. I would have lost a bet on this, Bobby. Adam Silver said, they've tweaked the lottery system five times.
- [49:05]
Jackson
Yeah, I didn't know that either.
- [49:07]
Wendy
So they installed the lottery system and then they tweaked it five times. Okay. And they can't get their arms around the 30 teams competing. With the set of circumstances that I just outlined, there's probably another pillar or two that you could add to that that I've missed. Feel free to do so on your own. I don't see how you get around 30. And they're thinking about putting it to 32. So just in case, you know. So like I said, you know, I. I think, you know, because Adam basically said, I'm mad about it, but said, I don't know what to do about it.
- [49:41]
Jackson
Don't you think, too, guys, like, we're. We're kind of hit like a little bit of a perfect storm, though, with A, how much this draft is being talked about. B, the two teams. Teams having protections on picks that they do not want to convey. Right. Whether it be Utah that would go to Oklahoma City, outside top eight, the Wizards, the same thing outside the top eight here. And then the other thing is, is that we've seen it more, you know, more come to life in late January, early February here. Like I said it on. I said it on NBA Today on Friday. And we can talk about Utah, and it's not Utah. It's not Utah. It was Toronto last year and it was other teams before that, and it was all these teams. And I said, listen, I am part of the. I raised my hand on TV like I was under oath. I said, I am part of the problem. I was on this show a week ago or two weeks ago when we were talking about Giannis and why, in the best interest of Milwaukee, they should get a lottery pick and him not playing the rest of the season here, because that's the best interest of them.
- [50:50]
Wendy
Isn't that the pick, protection and what you're talking about were the best thing for Milwaukee to do.
- [50:57]
Vince Goodwill
Yeah.
- [50:57]
Wendy
Wouldn't you file that under strategy?
- [50:59]
Vince Goodwill
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
- [51:01]
Jackson
What I had. And this wasn't just me talking, this wasn't just a Bobby Marks saying last Tuesday, the issue that teams have had or had was the ability to kind of, I guess, manipulate the game, Right. Whether it be pulling guys, starting guys, resting guys, end of game and stuff like that. That was the, that was the crux of some of the things that we're saying. But it's as we, as people have pointed out, listen, Toronto did it last year. We didn't hear boo from them. We didn't hear boo from the league at all from that. There have been situations before here, and now all of a sudden, here comes. Here comes Utah. What happened in Orlando. And then they went in Miami and Ryan Smith saying, wait a minute, we won that game. So I'm going to pay a $500,000 fine for a game I won. What in the. What world does that make sense?
- [51:54]
Wendy
Right. The league. The league rejected that.
- [51:57]
Jackson
That premise.
- [51:57]
Wendy
The league also completely ignored Jaren Jackson being put down for the season with knee surgery because they cited Jaren Jackson not playing in fourth quarters as, as a reason for finding them. The fact that, you know, three or four hours earlier they put out the Jaren Jackson press release on the knee surgery did not slow the league down. So the. Whether they won or lost the game, like, like that's a very good defense. You know, we won the game. You're accusing us of tanking in. But the league already is ignoring the fact that they're shutting a guy down with surgery. So they don't care whether you won or lost the game. They're more focused on the overall process.
- [52:39]
Vince Goodwill
You can't handle the truth, Wendy. That's apparently what they're, you know, did you order the Code Red? You damn right I did. Yes, they did. They ordered the Code Red.
- [52:48]
Jackson
And you know what? You're damn right. And it's worth it. If I'm going to get AJ DeBance or Darren Peterson or one of these young guards there, and we're going to be. Instead of the worst team in the NBA next year, we're going to be competing in the top six. It'll be. And as. And I listen. And I said that. And that's. I think that where Ryan got mad at me was that I said. And this wasn't just. This was. I was talking to a couple teams about it. He said, listen, teams will write a blank check to. When you're A billionaire. You will write a blank check for the ability to keep draft in the top three or draft four, because those players are transformational and everything. Like I had a team text me and Perk went crazy on me, on, not on me, but on the team and said, listen, I'd write, I got 7 million, 8 million. How much are going to cost, you know, for, for us to, to, we'll pay the fine. Now listen, when you come out and say we're going to start taking draft picks and we're going to start taking resources away now that's then the strategy that, that becomes something else.
- [53:48]
Wendy
Well, yeah, Adam Silver was rattling the saber.
- [53:51]
Vince Goodwill
Yeah.
- [53:52]
Wendy
Throughout that he, he didn't have a solution, but he did have a saber to rattle, which was the whole point of the. Fine.
- [53:58]
Vince Goodwill
Wendy, when I'm president, you know what I'm going to do? Wendy, when I am president. No, Jackson, we're not going to do an end of season tournament with all the lottery teams. We're not doing that.
- [54:08]
Wendy
That was one thing that Shams reported the other day that that's been thrown.
- [54:12]
Vince Goodwill
About in competition committee.
- [54:14]
Wendy
Do I want to get in trouble with the league here? Uh oh, I'm going to be.
- [54:18]
Vince Goodwill
Don't get in trouble. Hear my suggestion and then you tell and then you decide. Go ahead and think about it. Think, think about it. I'm giving, I'll give you some time. I'll do an Adam Silver filibuster here. When I'm president, the lottery will be set. The lottery order, Bobby Marks will be set at mid season. That doesn't stop tanking. It won't. It will stop tanking on the back end of seasons. And if you add, and if you say, Vinnie, what happens if you know, the Clippers, they start off 6 and 30 and then they have a great turnaround and they make the playoffs, well, guess what? They're out of the lottery. And the next best team or next worst team replaces them in the odds of whatever the ping pong ball needs to be. So you can't play yourself into better position. Somebody else can play you into better position, but you can't. And secondarily you can't get a top four pick two years in a row.
- [55:12]
Jackson
That's one of the better things I've seen. I haven't gotten like eight things from different teams. That's one of the better things I've heard.
- [55:16]
Vince Goodwill
I didn't get that from a team. That is. Those are my suggestions when I'm the next black president. Those are the two things that I'm going to attack campaign stump. That's my stumping speech, Wendy. So go ahead and get yourself in trouble with the league.
- [55:35]
Wendy
No, I'm just, you know, I just gonna say the league has only added games in the last decade. Their, their, their, their schedule adjustment in the last decade has only added games. They've added them. So Sham's, you know, talking about a concept where the lottery teams would play off. Like, I'm sure they like that.
- [55:53]
Vince Goodwill
What the hell would you do? My thing is when the hell would you do that? Like you already, your television inventory is already stretched out. The season is already stretched out. So you're gonna have lottery teams playing against each other while actually playing in real life playoff games. That's what you're going to do.
- [56:14]
Wendy
I'm not getting the call. I'm not going to get the call.
- [56:17]
Vince Goodwill
Okay, all right. I don't want to get you in trouble.
- [56:20]
Wendy
Not going to do it. That's interesting. I would just say that I'll go back to. The thing is that it's a strategy driven socialistic league. So wherever the team is incentivized to lose, teams will lose. And if that, if that, if that means losing in October and November instead of March and April, then they'll just lose in October, November. Now you may create the, you may say, well you're better off losing October, November. It's less damaging to your product than it is in March and April. Listen, that might be a trade off they're willing to do, but as long as you incentivize losing teams will lose. And if you add two more teams to it, there'll be even more of a basket of non contenders who will find that incentive.
- [57:12]
Vince Goodwill
I thought you was going to say something else, Wendy. When you said basket, I thought you were going to say something else.
- [57:18]
Wendy
Yeah, well I'm not going to do that. I may be a little loopy. I'm not on cold medication yet. It'll be soon. All right. I, I really. This ended up being a sort of a rich topic from the weekend. I really thought this was going to be a zero weekend and I'd like to applaud the NBA for it now. We didn't talk about Saturday night.
- [57:41]
Vince Goodwill
No need to.
- [57:42]
Wendy
If Vince, if you ever competed in an all star Saturday night event, would you come onto the court showing off your six pack? Would that be the first?
- [57:55]
Vince Goodwill
If I had a six pack for one.
- [57:57]
Wendy
If I had a six pack, it was impressive.
- [58:00]
Vince Goodwill
If I had a six pack, you would never see me with a shirt on ever. So All Stars Saturday night would not be any different than a random Tuesday. All right.
- [58:10]
Wendy
It's an impressive physique, I'll give you that. Also, I hope Jace Richardson is okay.
- [58:16]
Vince Goodwill
Yeah. He showed the dunk that he was trying to do. Like, he showed it on Instagram or Twitter or something like that. And it would have brought.
- [58:23]
Wendy
That's a new thing. Like, Mac McClung provided all the dunks.
- [58:26]
Vince Goodwill
He would have done. Yeah.
- [58:29]
Wendy
Like, I think that's where we're headed. We'll just AI the dunks. Just, you know, just AI, don't say that.
- [58:37]
Vince Goodwill
Oh, that's the other thing that Adam talked about was, AI Like, Adam, are you trying to kill us all? Do you want press conferences to be nothing but robots? Do you want to. I mean, we can have a commissioner. A AI Commissioner. Like, do you want to. What are we doing here?
- [58:54]
Wendy
Yeah, I mean, there's no. It's. It's. It's no less for you to say we could have an AI Commissioner when he said that we're going to have AI broadcasters. I mean, like, why stop at the broadcasters? Why not have an AI commissioner? Why not have AI referees? Why not have AI coaches? Why not have AI? Why don't the whole thing just be one giant simulation?
- [59:14]
Vince Goodwill
I think it's stupid. Like, this is when people say that Adam is kind of, you know, too loopy with his ideas. Sometimes I think he loses sight of what basketball is at its height. Like when this is a shared experience between players and fans and we're all invested, whether it's media or fans, whatever reason you're invested, it's a community. When you siphon these things off, you lose the sense of community. You lose the sense of what makes. Makes this thing special. If we're watching one broadcast and someone's watching another broadcast, like, how can we communicate? How can we create a community if everybody is in their own silo? That does not help your game.
- [60:02]
Wendy
That's all. You're making a fine point. I honestly think he had just been to the Tech Summit, which the NBA does every year, and you don't.
- [60:11]
Vince Goodwill
Am I getting upset for no reason?
- [60:12]
Wendy
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't get upset.
- [60:14]
Vince Goodwill
Sorry.
- [60:16]
Wendy
So anyway, I would say the All Star Weekend, I came in with very low expectations, and those were massively exceeded. So now the expectations will rise next year, and we'll see whether they can do that. So I have to make it. I have to declare it a success. All right. Thank you, Bobby. Thank you, Vince, for running over to the hotel after getting out of the Intuit. Thank you for your coverage this weekend. So me and the Tims didn't have to do it. Thank you, Bobby. I hope you're. I hope the academy went well this last.
- [60:49]
Jackson
You know what? You know what? The sports business classroom was a tremendous success. And here is the power of social media. Brian. We had an expansion draft.
- [61:01]
Vince Goodwill
Okay?
- [61:02]
Jackson
At the end, that was their project. We broke up teams. We had an expansion draft. They had to brand their team, they had to put their logo, they had to do all this great stuff and pick a team. And so I figured, you know what, Let me show their work on social media. So on Friday when they were presenting, I was taking pictures and I was putting it on social media. And 2 million views later, you know what's trending on Twitter? An expansion draft. And I think half, I would say the majority of those people actually probably thought it was real, that that was probably coming from the NBA here. And as I told my students, here's your lesson about social media. Don't read the comments. Enjoy what you put out there. Don't read the comments.
- [61:46]
Wendy
That's for you, Vince. Don't read the comments. I have Jackson read them for me.
- [61:54]
Vince Goodwill
I try to stay away, but sometimes listen, sometimes they pull me back in.
- [62:00]
Jackson
Listen, listen. I went down the rabbit hole a little bit on Saturday. I'm getting online, getting clearly, clearly, clearly clear. And I said, I want to. Let me.
- [62:07]
Wendy
Let me just take a little peek.
- [62:08]
Jackson
About my friends in Salt Lake City, what they're saying about me here. Ooh, let's, you know, pull the curtain back.
- [62:13]
Wendy
Oh, boy. It's all in good fun. All right. Thank you to Mark Jackson and Devon, our producers. Thank you to Vince and Bobby. Thank you for listening and watching the hoop Collective. I have no idea whether I'll have a voice on Wednesday. Come back and find out.
- [62:41]
Vince Goodwill
This precedence day.
- [62:42]
Wendy
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