← Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective
Record Breaking Sale For Celtics, Ranking The 11 Best Rebuilding Teams, East Seeding Battles
01:02:22
Hoop Collective: Record Breaking Sale For Celtics, Ranking The 11 Best Rebuilding Teams, East Seeding Battles
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- [00:01]
Brian Windhorst
Today at T Mobile I'm joined by.
- [00:02]
Tim Bontemps
A special co anchor.
- [00:04]
Zach Lowe
What up everybody?
- [00:04]
Tim Bontemps
It's your boy, big Snoop.
- [00:05]
Zach Lowe
D O double G Snoop where can.
- [00:07]
Brian Windhorst
People go to find great deals?
- [00:09]
Tim Bontemps
Head to T mobile.com and get four iPhone 16s with Apple Intelligence on us plus four lines for 25 bucks.
- [00:15]
Zach Lowe
That's quite a deal, Snoop. And when you switch to T mobile you can save versus the other big guys.
- [00:20]
Tim Bontemps
Comparable plans plus streaming. Respect.
- [00:23]
Brian Windhorst
When we up out of here, see.
- [00:25]
Zach Lowe
How you can save on wireless and.
- [00:26]
Tim Bontemps
Streaming versus the other big guys@t mobile.com switch Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Foreign.
- [00:36]
Zach Lowe
Welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA which we're doing on Thursday morning morning. Joining us from upstate New York in a beautiful rustic location, Tim Bontemps.
- [00:48]
Tim Bontemps
Hello everybody.
- [00:49]
Zach Lowe
Joining us from Los Angeles, California. Early in the day out there, he's violating typical McMahon hours. The author of oh Dan McMahon Howdy.
- [00:57]
Brian Windhorst
Partners published date is on Tuesday. Ebooks audiobooks already available. The Wonder Boy, Luka Doncic and the Curse of Greatness. I appreciate you going out of your way to plug that, Wendy. I saw Luka Doncic and certainly a flash of greatness last night.
- [01:11]
Zach Lowe
First quarter was you were watching the wonder boy take apart the remains of the Denver Nuggets. Murray and Jokic were out and Luke had 21 points in the first quarter. And yeah, it turns out the Nuggets.
- [01:23]
Brian Windhorst
The Nuggets can be beat when when Joker and Murray sit out. And we might need to touch on Bon Tims vs Malone in a little bit, but we've got a bigger story.
- [01:32]
Zach Lowe
To get to right now. Whatever.
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Brian Windhorst
Oh, I want to get to it. I want to get to it.
- [01:36]
Zach Lowe
All right.
- [01:37]
Tim Bontemps
Anyway, he likes to traffic and not facts.
- [01:40]
Brian Windhorst
So the facts is that he doesn't know who you are. That's what I heard on Denver radio. Jab, jab.
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Zach Lowe
We have major news in the NBA and I'm just going to say before we even talk about this, between when we're recording this and when you might be listening or watching to it, there may be more information. And the key is going to be in the details here. And the details may not be immediately known. However, the Boston Celtics have agreed to sell in principle to a group led by private equity, successful private equity gentleman named Bill Chisholm. And we, we don't know a lot about him other than he's from Massachusetts and a longtime Celtics fan and my guess has been trying to put together this consortium for a while. Bontemps, you wrote the news story about it Shams reported a $6.1 billion valuation. Everybody's going to focus on the $6 billion, and they should. It's the highest sale for an NBA team by 50%. The previous high was the Suns. There was the valuations for Sportico and Forbes had the Celtics in the mid. There was a understanding this was going to break the record, and a lot is focused on that price. But the details are going to be very important for who's making the decisions going forward with the Celtics, and particularly because of where the Celtics are from a financial standpoint, which is typically boring for a podcast. We talk about the NBA, but is important right now?
- [03:07]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, I mean, it's important when a team is about to be a $500 million team and the most expensive team in the history of the NBA, which is where the Celtics are headed this summer if they don't remove anybody from the roster. And that's, you know, before figuring out what they're going to do without Horford, who's obviously still an important piece of the team. I mean, there's definitely a lot of interesting layers to this. Obviously, the fact that they are the most expensive team in North American sports history, passing the commanders purchased by Josh Harris, the owner of the Sixers, 18 months ago, is a pretty interesting fact, and definitely not one I was expecting to happen. I thought this team was going to go for five or higher. I didn't think they were going to get all the way to $6 billion. That was certainly what the Celtics and I think the NBA had been hoping for over the past eight or 10 months, since the team announced right after the Finals that they were going to be up for sale. And I think it's got a very. It's got a really. It's going to have potentially a very big impact on the possibility of expansion. This was one thing that anybody that you talk to involved in the expansion process or thinking about the expansion process all said that nothing was going to happen with that process until there was clarity on this Celtic sale. And the higher the number came in on this sale, the greater the likelihood of that process moving along and there being at least one, if not likely, two teams added to the league at some point in the future. So it's certainly a big statement from that standpoint that there is, I think, a higher likelihood of expansion to now than there was a couple of hours ago. And then there's also, like you said, we don't. There isn't a lot known about Bill Chisum or the. The situation he's Walking into with the team, Steve Pagluca, who was a co owner of the Celtics along with Wick Grusbeck and was trying hard to buy the team, put out a statement which I think is pretty interesting. I just want to read part of it because I do think it underscores part of what we're talking about here. Quote, we made a fully guaranteed and financed offer at a record price. The defending the best sports fan in the world and with all the capital coming from individuals who are fully committed to winning on and off the court. We had no debt or private equity money that would potentially hamstring our ability to compete in the future. We felt it was the best offer for the Celtics. It is a bit of true fans deeply connected to Boston's community and we've been saddened to find out that we have not been selected in the process. So I think the way that is worded says a variety of things and it's going to be interesting over time, as you said, Brian, to see exactly what the ownership structure of this team is going forward because they're going to have some massive financial decisions to make just in the next six months, let alone beyond that. And it remains to be seen how willing and able they'll be to pay those kind of monies to pay that kind of money to keep this team together.
- [05:47]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. So McMahon, you remember when the Mavericks sold, they sold for I think 3.5 billion less than the Suns, which to this day remains a fascinating development because I think Dallas is a bigger and better market than Phoenix. And no one seems to talk about why Cuban gave him a discount. And I. Maybe we'll see in time, but I just don't get it. But forget about that. You remember what Mark Cuban said when the team was sold? You reported it?
- [06:14]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. He'll be, he'll be in charge of basketball operations. He said it on background to, to me and a bunch of other people's and then he said it publicly and. But the thing he said to me right after the sale was he would in charge of basketball forevermore.
- [06:27]
Zach Lowe
Forevermore. Right. I couldn't remember, I couldn't remember the, the terms that he, the, the actual verbiage. But I remembered was something like in perpetuity or something like that.
- [06:35]
Brian Windhorst
And then he held a, it wasn't a press conference. It was after one of Cuban's pregame three point shooting sessions when he kind of held court with the media and he went on and on about having control basketball operations and you know, they're about real estate. I'm about basketball. That's why it's a perfect fit. And obviously I still, I don't know if Cuban was flat lying or if he was trying to spe into existence, but it was not ever part of the discussions, it was not part of the contract and it was not reality, as we now know, certainly beyond a shadow of a doubt Now. Ramona just put out a. I guess what Grusbeck says in a statement is from a Ramona tweet. The new Boston Celtics owner William Chisholm has, quote, asked me to run the team as CEO and governor for the first three years and stay on as his partner. And, and I am glad to do so. From experience, I would say we need to hear that from the guy who just put up $6 billion.
- [07:30]
Zach Lowe
You also have to hear it from Olympic Tower in New York City because I don't know what is in the agreement. The agreement is probably brand new. I don't know how many different partners ran, but this is something I do know. The NBA, regardless of what the press conference looks like, regardless of what the press release looks like, regardless of what the outgoing owner says, regardless of what the incoming new summer incoming owner says, there is one thing that I can absolutely with 100% certainty guarantee in the NBA there are 30 teams, there are 30 governors. One one governor, not six. Not two guys with their hands around each other's shoulders. Not a bunch of guys smiling, not grandma, not my nephew.
- [08:12]
Brian Windhorst
Billionaires don't share.
- [08:13]
Zach Lowe
Well, one governor at a time at least. We have some teams that have had sort of a rotating governor agreement and that governor is the one who makes the decisions, period.
- [08:24]
Brian Windhorst
And there are some major decisions to be made as, as you know, Bonten's referenced with the payroll and like what's, like, what's one of the things that all these other front offices around the league are trying to figure out who are the Celtics going to move to to give themselves some financial relief? You know, is it Drew Holiday? Could it be Jaylen Brown? You know, whatever? Like, right.
- [08:47]
Zach Lowe
And I'm not even sure, you know, Bon Temps. I'm not even sure that Steve, Pat, you know, and it's interesting that, you know, you know, Pagliuca and Wick Groozbach sit next to each other at virtually every Celtic. They have been, you know, hand in hand partners for decades. I'll be interested to see Bontemps the next time you're in Boston about whether they're sitting together again.
- [09:06]
Tim Bontemps
It's going to be quite a while till I'm back in Boston. Again, so we'll see.
- [09:10]
Zach Lowe
All right, well, watch on tv.
- [09:11]
Tim Bontemps
Part of the, but part, part of the thing that Wick, that Pags was referring to in that statement is that in the reporting today, it's been said that 6th street, which is a massive investment firm, is putting up at least, I think at least a billion, more than a billion dollars into this deal, which is what Bloomberg reported. So when he's, when he's making comments and jabs in that statement about being fully financed by people committed to the Celtics, part of what he's referring to is the makeup of the bid structure of the, the group that bought the team.
- [09:44]
Zach Lowe
This is not a sports business podcast. But, and I'm not going to try to say that I'm an authority on this, but I will just tell you that 6th street is a massive private equity operation. They do have a big operation also.
- [09:59]
Brian Windhorst
Also a place with a bunch of bars in Austin where I don't want my daughter going anywhere near. But go on.
- [10:03]
Zach Lowe
There's, I believe there's a couple communities in America that have a Sixth Street.
- [10:07]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, okay. Austin's is famous, but I believe there's.
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Zach Lowe
A skyscraper in Boston with 6th street on the, on the side of it. But I think they're based in California. Anyway, 6th street owns a bunch pieces of a bunch of sports teams, including 20% of the San Antonio Spurs. And when it's over a billion dollars.
- [10:28]
Tim Bontemps
My guess is assuming they have 20%.
- [10:31]
Zach Lowe
Of the Celtics, I assume they have 20% of the Celtics. And that the reason it's 20% is because that's the most that the NBA will allow a private equity firm or a fund based, what they call an institutional investor, basically someone who's not a person, you know, you know, some group of money. 20% is all the NBA allows to invest. And one, you know, 20% of 6.1 billion is 1.2 billion. So maybe it's 18%, maybe it's whatever. But the key is, is that 6th street is not investing in something to operate it at a massive loss probably. You know, so I mean, you know, maybe it can have a losing season or so, but, you know, they're investing in it to hold it and eventually flip it. And you don't do that. You know, you also don't, you know, profit by having to pay 20% of several hundred million dollars in, in debt in a year. They also own 25%. I think they own a piece of FC Barcelona as well, some 75 billion.
- [11:32]
Tim Bontemps
In assets under management. They own a lot of stuff right.
- [11:34]
Zach Lowe
So, anyway, I don't know what's going to happen. I. You know, I do think that verbiage from Wick Griesbach is interesting because they've asked him to stay when he.
- [11:45]
Brian Windhorst
When, hey, here's $6 billion. Will you please hold our hand and run the franchise?
- [11:50]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, but look, I mean, Bill Chisholm himself does not. I mean, very few people do. I mean, we're getting to the point where sales of teams are not going to be with one individual. They're just. They're just too expensive.
- [12:04]
Brian Windhorst
$6 billion. This is, you know.
- [12:06]
Tim Bontemps
Well, yeah, I mean, it's a lot of money. It's. It's going to be fascinating to see how much money this guy actually has and how much he's willing to spend on the team and what the ramifications are going forward.
- [12:17]
Zach Lowe
It may not be only up to him. If there's. If there's 12 guys in a room that have come together, it depends on what their agreement is.
- [12:24]
Tim Bontemps
Right. But it. But again, like you said, this comes down to the person in charge. That's how the NBA does this. So it's. What is he. What is he. Because he's. Whether whatever the group is, it's going to be on him whether it's good or bad. So, I mean, the thing people don't know about the Celtics is the current group that owns the team has a million people in it.
- [12:42]
Brian Windhorst
Wick.
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Tim Bontemps
Gr 2% of the team. So it's not. He's the front of a big group, but he's the one making decisions. So we'll see what the decisions are on that. And the other thing is, I do think this is a huge step forward towards expansion. The fact that this number came in this high, that is probably the single biggest deal of this whole thing. There's a reason that $6 billion number kept getting floated out there. That's what the NBA was hoping this would go for, I think it's safe to say. And the fact that it set a record for the highest price for a franchise to be sold in North American sports history when the Celtics don't own their own arena think only underscores that there's plenty of interest in owning NBA teams. And I think it. I think it's much more likely now than it was when we woke up this morning that expansion happens in the somewhat near future.
- [13:30]
Brian Windhorst
I. I agree with all that. But, like, you're buying the Celtics brand in this case, which is, you know.
- [13:37]
Tim Bontemps
Obviously you are, but it's not. It wasn't a clean this wasn't a clean sale for a lot of reasons. Like, it was not clear they were going to get this kind of number. The fact they got this kind of number is only going to put wind in the sales of the idea of getting an extra 12 or 13 or whatever billion for two more teams, which all goes back to the 30 existing owners.
- [13:57]
Zach Lowe
I agree. I believe there will be expansion. I just don't know what the timeline is.
- [14:01]
Brian Windhorst
Right.
- [14:02]
Zach Lowe
You know, this didn't hurt the timeline.
- [14:04]
Tim Bontemps
This didn't slow down the timeline, put.
- [14:06]
Brian Windhorst
It that way, or who's going east when it happens.
- [14:08]
Zach Lowe
Well, but I do think the fact that it took the Celtics 10 months or whatever it was nine months to reach this process, I'm not sure.
- [14:17]
Tim Bontemps
You know, that's pretty normal. It's not. Well, that's not an app.
- [14:21]
Zach Lowe
I mean, this. The sun sold like that. The Clipper sold like that. I mean, okay, those are. Boom. You know, like that.
- [14:29]
Tim Bontemps
That's not. That's not normally how it works. It's much more. It's much more common for it to take several months than it is for it to take five.
- [14:36]
Zach Lowe
What I'm saying is, is that last, before the season started, Adam Silver was saying there would be some clarity on expansion before the. Before the end of the season, and there is no clarity on expansion and the season's about to end.
- [14:46]
Tim Bontemps
Well, yes, they were waiting again, they. They were waiting to see when this process would end. It was always supposed to end in the first quarter of this year, and it's still the first quarter of this year and it's been sold.
- [14:56]
Zach Lowe
Okay, that's all. First off, it hasn't been sold yet. Secondly, there was a belief in some circles who are hoping for expansion for the team to be in place by 27, and I just don't believe that's going to happen.
- [15:09]
Brian Windhorst
I like when you guys argue.
- [15:11]
Zach Lowe
So. But look, it doesn't matter. I. I agree with you in principle. Sort of like this has been sold in principle. I agree with you in principle that the, that the. That the movement towards the expansion takes a major step now that this price has been.
- [15:25]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, we agree on all that.
- [15:26]
Brian Windhorst
Okay, more Hoop Collective podcast after this.
- [15:31]
Zach Lowe
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Tim Bontemps
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- [17:55]
Zach Lowe
All right, now let's get back to the court. McMahon, you've been on the West Coast. I want to talk a little bit about one of the hottest teams in the league that's really making a move right now. A game that you a team that you saw earlier this week were the Clippers. The Clippers went on a East coast trip a couple of weeks ago and when they left they were in sixth place. And then they came home and they played two games against the Lakers. I guess that was still, they're on the road, but they played two games against the Lakers in crypto. They lost both. And when they woke up the morning after that, they were in ninth and they were watching the warriors power up and the Lakers power up and, and it's been a remarkable. It was, they were really kind of in trouble and Kawhi was back, but not looking great. I, I, I had even talked to some scouts that said he, you know, just his burst didn't look like he was there. He's having trouble getting open, you know, you know, getting free. And I really didn't know where the Clippers were because they were such a positive story for so much of the year. And they, you know, they really were defined by their energy and their defense. Well, they've won seven out of eight games, including the game you were at earlier this week where they, they put up 135, I think, or 137 or whatever it was on the Cavs. And they've won seven of the last eight games and they have, are really in the thick of what is showing up to be a really intense Western Conference competition, which we knew it would be. It was last year, it will be again this year. You know, four spots, you know, five, six, seven, eight. You know, really. And the difference obviously between six and seven is huge. But in these last eight games, we've seen James Harden just looking spectacular. He's, he's averaged 29 points in these games and he really hasn't had a great year efficiency wise, based on his historic standards. But his efficiency in these games has been back to maybe not peak Harden, but certainly great Harden. You know, he's average. He shot 45%. He's got to the line 11 times in these, in this game. Kawhi backed, you know, his scoring is down a little bit overall, but his shooting is so much better.
- [20:02]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, not against Cavs corner it wasn't. I mean, he looked, as Kenny Atkinson said, vintage Kawhi, like he was doing whatever he wanted, getting to his spots.
- [20:11]
Zach Lowe
Right.
- [20:11]
Brian Windhorst
Elevating over guys knocking down shots. That was a game Harden didn't shoot the ball great. But Harden, Harden has had a great year just running that offense. You know, Norm Powell has had a phenomenal year and he just came back.
- [20:25]
Zach Lowe
He just came back. Well, let me just go over some of these guys before I want to, I want, before you tell us what you saw when you were there. So Leonard in this, so he hasn't, he hasn't you know, he obviously takes some back to backs off.
- [20:36]
Brian Windhorst
Sure.
- [20:36]
Zach Lowe
But in this stretch, he shot 43% on threes and 50% from the field. And as you said, what did he have? What did he have against the Cavs? 36.
- [20:44]
Brian Windhorst
33.
- [20:45]
Tim Bontemps
33.
- [20:46]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [20:47]
Brian Windhorst
Was just. I mean, he was dominant.
- [20:49]
Zach Lowe
Yeah. And you can just. You can. When he's feeling good, you can just. You can just tell it in the way he, his demeanor. If you, you know, it's just. Instead of it sort of being distant, it's just more focused. I don't. I don't know how.
- [21:03]
Brian Windhorst
And you can see it in the way that he elevates.
- [21:05]
Zach Lowe
Yes. Because he needs. He's such a killer from that mid range, but he needs to get his legs underneath him to do it. And then. So that night. So first off, if it's the Zubac, this dude.
- [21:17]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, my.
- [21:18]
Zach Lowe
Is crushing. I mean, so in this stretch, he's averaging 21 and 13. Okay. On 64% shooting and anchoring the defense. My God. So that night. Well, hold on. I'll wait to get to the Cavs that night. All right, then. You know, they made this deal at the trade deadline that it wasn't really clear about this deal that they made. Or they traded Terence Mann for Bogdan Bogdanovich. I love being. Bogdan's a friend of the pod. Hell, Norm Powell and James Harden are friends of the pod, but the Clippers are very pod friendly.
- [21:49]
Brian Windhorst
It's a very pod friendly dude is Kawhi has quite come on.
- [21:53]
Zach Lowe
We haven't booked him yet, but there may be another Clipper coming on soon. I'm working on negotiations for another Clipper, but anyway, Bogdan, you know, I have. I love Bogdan because he's such a great international player and I've covered him all over the world and he's so great when he plays for Serbia. He's just been plagued by injuries so recently in the NBA the last few years, and this year, frankly, he was having a bad year for the Hawks. You know, he was out with some injuries, and then his shooting percentages were just frankly, crap. So they make this deal. The Hawks basically did it to get out of his contract in the future. Terrence Mann is younger and he's been terrific for them. He's shooting the ball great.
- [22:28]
Brian Windhorst
He didn't miss the other night, literally.
- [22:31]
Zach Lowe
So. And in this stretch, he's shooting 55% from three. He's healthy. And like I said, Norm Powell, he hasn't put up. He's back now from the injuries. He hasn't played great since then. I want you. What if I was going to say something, Evan Mobley is the, is he the front runner, Jackson, for defensive player of the year?
- [22:49]
Tim Bontemps
He's certainly in the conversation for it. I don't know if he's front runner, but he's way.
- [22:53]
Brian Windhorst
I think betting wise he is.
- [22:55]
Zach Lowe
I'm saying this the morning after he had a 31 point game in Sacramento. Evan Mobley's status for defensive player of the year, in my opinion, has taken some hits this week, including in the game you were at where vicious Zubac had 20 rebounds by himself and the Cavs had 29 as a team.
- [23:14]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, he had 28 points, 20 rebounds and absolutely just physically bullied the Cavs. Two bigs, just dominated the game in the paint. Mobley is the favorite on the ESPN BET and then 250. And then while Harden didn't have a great shooting night, one of the, you know, probably the most memorable highlight from that game was when Harden got Mobley out there on a switch on the perimeter and, you know, blew by him, got a little layup and then did the, you know, the scream celebration. You know, that old. That's painting, right? Scream where you know, he was, he was impressed with himself and having fun with it. And Moby Moby is a great defender. But, you know, I'm, I'm doing kind of the Wendy Celebrity thing where I was doing TV this week and Udonis Haslam is out here doing TV and Haslam was making great points about like teams will try to hunt Mobley on switches, you know, making him switch on to star.
- [24:06]
Zach Lowe
Well, it happened last night. Demar derose again, Evan Mobley had a 31 point game on Wednesday night. He had a very dominant stretch in the second half that helped the Cavs rally in that game and they were behind and they've lost three in a row. But the Sacramento Kings ran plays to get Evan Mobley onto DeMar DeRozan down the stretch and DeRozan was scoring. Now, I don't know if, you know, the Cavs have a defensive scheme. You know, you shouldn't necessarily judge a 6 foot 11 guy on coming out to a switch with a guard or a wing. I'm not saying that's when you should judge him. I'm just saying I'm watching teams as you Donnis Aslam said at the end of games, point to Mobley and say get him in the pick and roll because we're going to put him on. And this is a very tight defensive Player of the year race. I'm not supposed. I can't ignore this pontemps. I mean, what am I supposed to say? Evan Moby is going to be on my all NBA ballot. He's having a great year. But we're evaluating the Cavs as a championship contender. And I'm watching teams target Evan Mobley. And as. And as. As McMahon saw, he got beat up by the big boy in the Clippers. There's going to be more big boys out there. So just.
- [25:14]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, look, the Cavs. The Cavs hopes of being a championship level team. I mean, they need Evan Mobley to cover up a whole bunch of defensive issues. I mean, look, we've talked about it a bunch. They've done an incredible job this season, but they're still playing too small. You know, Darius Garland's a negative defender. Donovan Mitchell's maybe an average defender. You know, We've talked about DeAndre Hunter. He's no great defender.
- [25:40]
Zach Lowe
He is a good defender. Come on. He's a good defender.
- [25:42]
Tim Bontemps
Okay? If you talk to scouts, they'll say he's fine, he's average or worse. I mean, he's not, he's not seen as a positive defender by.
- [25:51]
Zach Lowe
That's not true.
- [25:52]
Brian Windhorst
Bunker, as usual, just a wee bit harsh. You're doing the urine silk wet blanket.
- [25:57]
Tim Bontemps
Okay, go on. Sure. I mean, he's, he's not, He's.
- [26:01]
Zach Lowe
He's not.
- [26:01]
Brian Windhorst
He ain't a bullseye, dude.
- [26:03]
Zach Lowe
He, he. He's a below average rebound.
- [26:05]
Tim Bontemps
I didn't say he was a bullseye. I said he's average. They don't have any quality perimeter defenders, so Evan Mo has to make up for a ton of stuff. And it's.
- [26:15]
Zach Lowe
He's not Tony Allen. I'll. I'll give you that. Like, he, He's.
- [26:20]
Tim Bontemps
They acquired him. His best value is that he's a plus 40% three point shooter at six eight, which is a valuable player.
- [26:26]
Zach Lowe
They acquired him for what he can do at both ends. And, and he. If you want to say he doesn't rebound, well, that's a fair assessment. That is. And that. And the lineups with him in it were the lineups that were getting their butts kicked by the Clippers. But go ahead. I'm sorry.
- [26:41]
Brian Windhorst
You guys are nice dude today. I like this. I mean, this is, this is better than Bontems versus Malone.
- [26:46]
Zach Lowe
All right. Anyway, so I'm just saying, look, the Cavs lost three games in a row. It happens. They've. They rested Darius Garland in Sacramento, but still, it was a bad loss. Sacramento didn't have Sabonis or Zach Levine and they be the Cavs. And the Cavs could not get stops down the stretch of that game. I think Sacramento scored on the last seven possessions of the game again with Mobley being targeted in the pick and roll by Deroo. And look, DeMar DeRozan is one of the great clutch scorers in the modern era of the NBA. I'm not looking down my nose. I'm just saying if you want to be defensive player of the year, you know that's where you're, you're going to be judged.
- [27:19]
Brian Windhorst
Well, and Draymond is, is campaigning and I don't know, I suspect that the Warriors PR staff might end up aiding him in that cause.
- [27:28]
Zach Lowe
Well, I'm gonna put forth Dyson Daniels. I, I, I don't.
- [27:32]
Tim Bontemps
Dyson Defensive player of the year.
- [27:34]
Brian Windhorst
He is third in the odds. Old, old, old Jack.
- [27:37]
Tim Bontemps
I don't care about, I don't care about the odds.
- [27:39]
Brian Windhorst
This team is, this team is ESPN BET does. Can I read him? Jackson put them in the chat. He did some work for once. Can I Reward his work? Movie minus 250. Draymond. Plus 400. Daniels plus 900. JJ triple. Jaren Jackson Jr. Plus 13,000. Bond temps. The floor is yours.
- [27:59]
Tim Bontemps
I'm pretty sure it's not. Plus 13,000.
- [28:02]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, plus 1300. Jackson type on Jacks.
- [28:06]
Tim Bontemps
Dyson Daniels isn't winning defensive player of the year when his team's team's defense isn't good. And outside of steals, his individual on ball defensive numbers aren't great. He's going to be on first or second all defense. He's had a great year. He shouldn't win defensive player of the year. He's not going to.
- [28:21]
Zach Lowe
All right. All of the all stars in the league play the wing position and he's defending them. You know, I mean, if you want to make a case for Lou Dort, I would listen to a case for Lou Dort because Lou Dort, night after night after night deals with the all Star wings that he's smaller than. Yeah, and really, because I see there's been like. And I, I know Perk has been part of this, but Perk has been calling for Shade, Gilders, Alexander. Dort's in fifth. He's at plus 18,000. Just kidding. 1800.
- [28:46]
Brian Windhorst
Jackson.
- [28:49]
Zach Lowe
Make a case for Lou Dort. I'm here to listen to it. I just, I'm, I'm looking at a guy having one of the great steals and deflection seasons. In the history of the sport. And the guy he's defending are the all Stars. Every night.
- [29:01]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. And I. But we do need to be very, very clear to however many of the 100 voters that listen, Lou Dort is the defensive player of the year candidate for. For the Oklahoma City Thunder.
- [29:13]
Zach Lowe
Yes.
- [29:14]
Brian Windhorst
Shay Gildas Alexander is a contributor to the number one overall defense. He has some great, you know, stocks numbers, steals, blocks. He's not first team all defense on the Oklahoma City Thunder. Literally, he's not one of their top five defensive players. And if you don't believe me, ask him. He will tell you that he would.
- [29:32]
Zach Lowe
Support Lou Dort's candidacy. He would throw his. He would bow out and throw his. Throw his electoral votes or his delegates to Lou. Door. And like, if you watch the Thunder, which I'm allowed to do about once every 15 days, Lou's. The way Lou affects the opposing player. Like sometimes you see in baseball when you have a great pitcher and the pitcher's got like a great curveball or whatever, like you see the guy gets into the batter's box and he's almost down.01 before because he's so worried about dealing with the pitchers great stuff that he's not even on his game. I see this with Lou Dort. I see guys react to dealing with Lou Dort. It gets them out of their game. And if you watch Dyson Daniels, the guy's getting his hand on the ball like 10, 12 times a game.
- [30:19]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [30:20]
Zach Lowe
And, you know, I agree. Bon temps. You're right. His case is negatively dragged down by his overall team's defense, and he has to wear that.
- [30:29]
Tim Bontemps
He's also not an incredible isolation defender. Like he. He's an unbelievable. He's unbelievable. Getting in passing lanes, deflecting balls, moving. He's a great defensive player. I don't think he's the defensive player of the year. And I just. In general, it's very hard to argue that a wing player is more valuable than a big defensively. It's just.
- [30:49]
Zach Lowe
I understand that. But in this particular year where we don't have clarity on the bigs, it may be a year to consider.
- [30:56]
Tim Bontemps
I mean, Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson and Draymond Green and I think even Avika Zubac all have had incredible years.
- [31:03]
Zach Lowe
I agree. And I'm just thinking, I think are.
- [31:04]
Tim Bontemps
All probably better candidates.
- [31:07]
Brian Windhorst
You're counting Draymond as a big. In this. In this discussion?
- [31:09]
Tim Bontemps
Yes, for sure.
- [31:10]
Brian Windhorst
Because Draymond. And like the other day when Draymond kind of had a platform to campaign. It was his. It was his individual defense on Giannis that really gave him the platform. That's what's. What's really fascinating about Draymond is he is the middle linebacker, you know, the guy who's. Who's anchoring a lot of it, but he can also get out on the perimeter and guard not every team's best player. You know, some of the super quick guards, you don't want them on, but a lot of them.
- [31:38]
Zach Lowe
Well, look, my vote will come down to what. I don't trust my eyes on the defense. I will talk to assistant coaches and head coaches, and they will influence my vote. I said this in the past. Tom Thibodeau convinced me to vote for Bam Adebayo for Defensive Player of the Year two years ago. He was adamant about what Bam. I'm not even sure how many votes Bam got that year, but I know few coaches watch as much film as Tom Thibodeau and I. He was emphatic about it during our conversation. And so I'm saying Mobley's candidacy took a little bit of a hit in the last few days. That's what I'm saying. He may still win it. I may still vote for him, because that's what the coaches are going to tell me. I'm just telling you it took a little bit of a hit. And you saw the cavs showing vulnerability, McMahon. I mean, that's. And, you know, that's. That's. You know, the Clippers are showing strength as they try to fight back, and the Cavs are showing some vulnerability and they've lost control of the top seed. Oklahoma City has it back and the.
- [32:35]
Brian Windhorst
Thunder, actually, the fact on accident. Do you see that Oklahoma City lineup last night against the top Sixers? So now. Now, why would they do that, Wendy?
- [32:46]
Zach Lowe
Okay, bond temps. The Jazz got fined a hundred thousand dollars last week for. What was the. What did the league deem it as player participation?
- [32:57]
Brian Windhorst
Flagrantly.
- [32:58]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [32:59]
Zach Lowe
We have seen since then some stuff happen in this. In this league. I mean, the tanking situation is getting more bloody by the day.
- [33:08]
Brian Windhorst
They've got to figure out some solutions. And I know Tim Bontemp's a good friend of all of ours and a very pleasant fellow is working on a story about this.
- [33:17]
Tim Bontemps
That's true. Some of that is true.
- [33:22]
Brian Windhorst
You keep challenging my integrity, this pot. And I say nice things about you, not Michael Malone. I'm on your side.
- [33:28]
Zach Lowe
What happened on Wednesday? The. The Thunder had had two days off. Okay. They did not play Monday or Tuesday. They do not play Thursday today and the Friday they play, they play The Hornets.
- [33:39]
Tim Bontemps
Thunder saddle their guys to try to get their draft pick. And the Sixers are so bad that that didn't matter. As I said before, you got the game to you guys. I was sure the Thunder were going to win. The Thunder won by a thousand because the Sixers stink.
- [33:51]
Zach Lowe
Yeah.
- [33:51]
Brian Windhorst
Jalen Williams.
- [33:52]
Tim Bontemps
I don't think that has anything to do with any of the other things that are going on.
- [33:56]
Zach Lowe
Well, I do think it's interesting what the Thunder did.
- [34:00]
Brian Windhorst
You know, It's Jalen Williams. J. Will, just like when they got the. I guess. I don't know. Is the investigation ongoing about the lineup they put out there against Portland when they spanked their butts? But Jay Will has had triple doubles in both of those games. He's one of four Thunder players to have multiple triple doubles in a season. Now, do you know the other three?
- [34:20]
Tim Bontemps
Just got to roll it out there with the ball every game and it'll be good.
- [34:23]
Brian Windhorst
We haven't had wizard the Quiz in a while. Bon Temps has been a busy man. He's kind of ignored those duties. Wizard the Quiz. And now to present today's trivia question.
- [34:33]
Tim Bontemps
The whiz of the quiz.
- [34:37]
Brian Windhorst
The other three players have had multiple triple doubles in a season for the Oklahoma City Thunder. Westbrook, you think?
- [34:45]
Tim Bontemps
Okay, I saw the answer, so I'm not gonna. I'm not going to guess.
- [34:50]
Brian Windhorst
Wendy. Another one Is another one.
- [34:52]
Zach Lowe
Shadeless Alexander.
- [34:54]
Brian Windhorst
Nope. Nope.
- [34:55]
Zach Lowe
I don't know. Go ahead.
- [34:57]
Brian Windhorst
Gentleman who won an MVP there, Kevin Durant. And a gentleman who you are very fond of because he has great hair and was traded for a guy who has no hair.
- [35:06]
Zach Lowe
Probably not narrowing it down.
- [35:07]
Brian Windhorst
Josh Giddey.
- [35:08]
Zach Lowe
Oh, giddy. Yeah.
- [35:09]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Anyway, so, yeah, I would just say.
- [35:12]
Zach Lowe
Let me just. Let me just really quickly encapsulate what happened. The Thunder reportedly are under investigation for last week. That was two weeks ago now.
- [35:22]
Brian Windhorst
Yes.
- [35:22]
Zach Lowe
They played a game where they benched a bunch of guys and they are under investigation for violation of player participation policy. That was a game on March 7th. I gotta go see who they played that night.
- [35:34]
Tim Bontemps
They played the Blazers and they won by a thousand. And it's. It's a ridiculous. It's ridiculous that they're being investigated.
- [35:40]
Zach Lowe
Okay, that's fine. That's fine. You know who else thinks it's ridiculous, apparently, are the Thunder, because despite being under that investigation, they then sat a bunch of top players, including Shay Gildas Alexander, even though they have a whole bunch of days off in and around.
- [35:55]
Brian Windhorst
This game because Jalen Williams and Lou Dort have been hurt, but then they arrested others, including sga.
- [36:02]
Zach Lowe
Right. And like I said, that's why there's an investigation, because the teams can put whatever they want on their. On their injury report. And the league has not policed injury reports the way the NFL polices injury reports. And. And therefore, it's a bleep show. So you have situations where guys are truly injured but listed as out, and other situations where stars are not really injured, but they're listed as out. And so the credibility is all over the place. And the league has let that go down the, down the block and around the corner, and they're throwing fines here, but not throwing fines there. And there's teams sitting four starters and nothing happens, and other teams sitting multiple starters and getting fined. And so it's just a mess. You got everybody trying to get Cooper Flag. It's just. And like, it's. It's at the back end of the. Of the league. So, you know, like. And we're NCAA Tournaments going on. So, like, if you bought a ticket to the game to see Shay, you feel the pinch, but the overwhelming feeling in the league, like the overarching. It's not something that's being discussed nationally as much, but it's.
- [37:05]
Brian Windhorst
But this one is fascinating because of the pick protections and that whole situation. And it's a number. It's a number one seed. It's not a Cooper Flag entrant.
- [37:14]
Zach Lowe
Right. And the. The pick is top six protected. And so with every victory, it increases. With every 6.6years victory, it increases the Thunder's chances that they get that pick. So the Thunder, who blew out the Blazers when they didn't play anybody and then blew out the Sixers when they didn't play core players. I will say, this. Talk about crazy stats, and this sort of illustrates what's going on with the Sixers right now. So Quentin Grimes, who.
- [37:39]
Brian Windhorst
They're overcoming his brilliance.
- [37:41]
Zach Lowe
Quentin Grimes, who was traded at the trade deadline to. To Philly and another trade. It's not looking so good for them.
- [37:49]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah. Yeah. The. The second least popular trade of the. The Nico Harrison era among Mavericks fans.
- [37:56]
Zach Lowe
Right. So he's, you know, putting up. How many did he have last night? He had. I mean, somebody's got to score, but he's obviously playing great and he's playing out his mind. Yeah, he had 28 last. Is he a free agent?
- [38:07]
Tim Bontemps
He is a restricted. Free agent.
- [38:08]
Brian Windhorst
Restricted free agent.
- [38:09]
Zach Lowe
God bless him. What? Way to go, buddy.
- [38:11]
Brian Windhorst
Well, and that's honestly, that's why the Mavericks trade him. He wanted a mid level type of deal. And they're like, no, we want you that, you know, kind of that Najee Marshall number, that Cody Martin number. And off he went.
- [38:21]
Zach Lowe
Well, that's all well and good, but they have their restricted rights and they could have used them the rest of the season, but that's water under the bridge. He's averaging.
- [38:27]
Brian Windhorst
Called me for my advice before they made the deal.
- [38:29]
Zach Lowe
Clearly he's averaging 28 and a half points a game over the last 10 games. Okay, there are. I'm not doing wizard of the Quiz. I'm just going to tell you that there are four guards in the history of the storied 76ers franchise.
- [38:43]
Brian Windhorst
Allen Iverson, James Harden. Yeah, they get two. Go on.
- [38:47]
Zach Lowe
No, actually, not Harden.
- [38:50]
Brian Windhorst
Not Harden. Okay. Mo Cheeks. I mean, no, Andrew Toney. He's on there, so.
- [38:55]
Zach Lowe
Well, I'll just tell you that the, the guys who are retired are hall of Famers. So there's, there's four guards in the, in the history of the Sixers organization who have averaged 28 and a half over 10 games. James Harden, 8 1. Allen Iverson, hall of Famer. Hal Greer, hall of Fame.
- [39:10]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, yeah.
- [39:11]
Zach Lowe
Tyrese Maxey, All Star.
- [39:13]
Brian Windhorst
Okay.
- [39:14]
Zach Lowe
Quentin Grimes.
- [39:15]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, wow.
- [39:16]
Tim Bontemps
Quinn Grimes is the other one.
- [39:20]
Brian Windhorst
He's got to get maxed out because.
- [39:22]
Tim Bontemps
He had a stat line. I think in the Houston game that the only other person to issue the franchise who'd ever done it is the big fella.
- [39:28]
Brian Windhorst
So that's when he had 46. But the, the top like five blocks or something. Yeah, the top Sixers blew. I don't know how big the league got, but they were up 8 with.
- [39:38]
Tim Bontemps
Less than a minute to go and went to overtime and lost.
- [39:41]
Brian Windhorst
They were up 20 at the half. 19 or 20. They scored like 78 points in the.
- [39:45]
Tim Bontemps
First half and they shot. They shot like 19 for 30 from three and first half or something.
- [39:50]
Brian Windhorst
How pissed off do you think Eme Adoka was at halftime after the top sixers put 78 points him. Do you think he was more or less mad than Bon Temps when Bon Temps kept getting interrupted by yours truly?
- [40:02]
Tim Bontemps
I don't think he was. I don't think he was very happy.
- [40:06]
Brian Windhorst
Were you?
- [40:07]
Zach Lowe
I don't think m. I think you, you, I. Without being there. I would guess that Eme's. Eme was more angry than annoyed. Which Bon Temps is annoyed. I think Eme gets a little angrier. He's.
- [40:17]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, I can get to. I can get to anger. I'm I'm on the path, baby. More Hoop Collective podcast after this Introducing.
- [40:26]
Zach Lowe
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- [42:04]
Tim Bontemps
TurboTax Taxes was getting frustrated by your forms.
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Zach Lowe
Now Taxes is uploading your forms with a Snap and a TurboTax expert will.
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Brian Windhorst
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Zach Lowe
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Brian Windhorst
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Zach Lowe
You to get the most money back guaranteed. Get an expert now@turbotax.com only available with TurboTax Live full service. Seek guaranteed details@turbotax.com guarantees foreign by the way, Also on Wednesday night, Cade Cunningham banked in a three pointer at the buzzer to give the Heat their ninth consecutive loss. And I will just point out real quick because Bon Thames has an interesting story that I Want to talk about. And I suspect we might really get him riled up. McMahon when we talk about this.
- [42:52]
Brian Windhorst
Wait, this is fun.
- [42:53]
Zach Lowe
We talk about this. That victory over Detroit pulled them to within one game of Milwaukee for the five seed. Milwaukee has lost. I think they've definitely lost a couple in a row and over the last 10 games they're five and five. They were hot and they've lost them in a row and now they've lost the four seed and now they've got the Pistons right on them for the six seed. That is of course interesting because if you're the Knicks who have struggled a little bit against the Pistons this year, you are watching where the Pistons are potentially for that first round. And if you're the Cavs, you would love to see Giannis and Dame fall into the other half of the bracket Even though they went 40 against the Bucs in the regular season. You know, I'd like to see, I'd like to not have Giannis in my side of the bracket. So keep an eye on that. And the Pacers have won four out of five. The other night they were missing four starters and pulled out a win over the Timberwolves. The Timberwolves had, had, had won eight in a row at that point. And they, and they pulled it up.
- [43:57]
Brian Windhorst
And well, and it was another, it was another awful exhibit of hero ball with a game on the line by hand who we all love. But like Ant Ant's performance in those situations is the difference between the Wolves being an eight seed right now and you know, the Wolves maybe being in the, in the four or five mix.
- [44:16]
Tim Bontemps
Well, by the way, last night, Wednesday night they played New Orleans. He goes 5 for 19 and they lose to the Pelicans. I mean we talked about the, the Wolves having a chance to get maybe up into the top four, maybe certainly into the top six with the, with the. How soft their schedule was. Those are catastrophic losses back to back games at home. You can't lose those games at home when you're trying to get out of the play in and like I said, they had a real path to home court. Even if they won these like kept on the street they were on. Obviously they had to close hot, but they had a real chance to and you just, you can't, can't be kicking away games like that with where the Western Conference is. Could be the difference between the Thunder or being out of the playing.
- [44:58]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, well, and the Clipper, like I said, the Clippers have the afterburners on and have moved past them okay.
- [45:02]
Tim Bontemps
And the warriors are playing great.
- [45:04]
Zach Lowe
Real quick on the Pacers. The Pacers were losing to the Mavericks, who are not tanking on purpose, McMahon. They're just losing. The Mavericks were ahead by seven point Wednesday night going into the final minute.
- [45:18]
Brian Windhorst
Oh, yes.
- [45:19]
Zach Lowe
And got outscored by the Pacers in the final minute. That's 60 seconds, 14 to 3. And the Pacers have been behind in the last 20 seconds of the game three times in the last five games and won all three of them. So, like, you know, some of the, I mean, you know, some of this, you know, look, and, and they did have Pascal Siakam back last night. There was one game in there. Obi toppet had a 30 point game. One game. Andrew Nebhardt had a 30 point game. Halliburton's been out with a sore back. They're doing it with a wing and a prayer. But still, that's different. You know, they're in fourth place now because of that. And, you know, you're down seven and last minute. I don't know what, what BPI says or whatever, but my guess is it's in the high 90s. You're going to take care of it.
- [46:03]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah.
- [46:04]
Zach Lowe
And they did. All right. I want to talk about this story that Bontemps put out today. I really. It's an interesting story. It's looking at the 11 teams that are rebuilding. I'm, you know, how did you define rebuilding? Bon Temps? Those.
- [46:17]
Tim Bontemps
Either teams that are openly tanking this year or teams that are sort of stuck or trying to figure out what direction they're going in. Say like Atlanta. Right. Which obviously is. Doesn't have their pick but is clearly shifting in a younger direction overall. And I included Detroit in there because they had been rebuilding and obviously Pistons are having a tremendous season and are coming out of it, but I think would still be seen as a team that's putting together a team rather than one that's fully complete.
- [46:46]
Zach Lowe
Right. Okay. So you rank them and there's a few rankings in here I'd like to have you discuss.
- [46:51]
Tim Bontemps
Sure. I will say off the jump, it was a very difficult thing to do in March in part because a lot of these rankings will change very wildly based off what happens in six weeks at the lottery.
- [47:05]
Brian Windhorst
Of course, Wendy loves some rankings.
- [47:08]
Zach Lowe
All right. Number one you've got is the Spurs. Totally agree.
- [47:12]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah.
- [47:12]
Zach Lowe
And it helps that they got Victor Bundanyama. But as you point out, you talk about all these teams tradable first round picks, in other words, their ability to make moves to improve their roster. I think that's a very good way to view the teams. And the other thing I'm going to tell you is as I look at these teams you have ranked and I'm not going to go into all the rankings. Most of these teams, I'm not happy with where their rebuilds are.
- [47:35]
Tim Bontemps
But I would also agree with that too. There's not many that you feel super strongly about right now.
- [47:40]
Zach Lowe
And so like I, I mean all honesty, like how you rank, you know, the Wizards relative to the Jazz, you know, like we could have a conversation about that, but you're just sort of putting it out there.
- [47:52]
Tim Bontemps
I would say that the teams from two to eight on the list, I think you could put in just about any order.
- [47:58]
Zach Lowe
Right. And it would totally flip on its head depending on the lottery.
- [48:02]
Tim Bontemps
Well, yeah, And I just think if you want to rank any from 2 to 8 now, I think you can make an argument basically for any of them, I would say.
- [48:08]
Zach Lowe
All right, but let me just say this. So yeah, the spurs get lucky in the lottery. You know, they tanked to get there, but they get lucky in the lottery to get Victor. But one of the reasons why you got them number one in addition to their draft assets is that they look like they might have drafted the rookie of the year in consecutive years. You know, the fun Castle, the main.
- [48:25]
Tim Bontemps
Reason they're number one is because they got the 7, the 75 dude from France. But, but Stefan Castle is great. We love Stefan Castle.
- [48:32]
Zach Lowe
But let. Here's where I just would like you to explain.
- [48:35]
Tim Bontemps
Sure.
- [48:35]
Zach Lowe
The number two ranked team on the rebuild, you hear you have the Charlotte Hornets. This surprised me.
- [48:41]
Tim Bontemps
Please.
- [48:42]
Zach Lowe
I mean, I know you said two to eight, but you put them, they.
- [48:45]
Tim Bontemps
Have Lamelo ball, they have Brandon Miller, they have Mark Williams. They have. And they have a really good chance of getting Cooper flag. And if you get, if you put Cooper flag with their young talent, that's a group that's got a really high ceiling. Now if they end up with the fifth or sixth pick in the draft, I think you could put them at seventh, maybe. But the thing is, if you look at the teams behind them, which I think I had in order is Washington, Brooklyn and Utah.
- [49:11]
Zach Lowe
That's right.
- [49:12]
Tim Bontemps
The Hornets have way more present day talent than those teams and they have a very good chance of getting Cooper flag.
- [49:18]
Zach Lowe
They already tried. They already tried to trade Mark Williams because they don't think they're in love with him.
- [49:22]
Tim Bontemps
I don't, I don't think Mark Williams is anything great. It's mainly they have Lamelo Ball and Brandon Miller, both of whom are very good. And if you add Cooper Flag to that, that's the core of a team that has, I think, a very high ceiling.
- [49:34]
Zach Lowe
You guys know, at the beginning of the season, I kind of swirled with you guys because I was so. I was very high on Lamelo and I've hated watching him this year.
- [49:44]
Brian Windhorst
Well, and I tell you, I'm curious to see what happens in the future with him.
- [49:48]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, I think it's a. I mean, I wrote it in there. It's a huge question. What happens with Lamelo there going forward? I don't know.
- [49:54]
Zach Lowe
I was hoping he was going to, you know, coming back healthy. I was hoping he was going to take steps forward. I was hoping that he, you know, with new coaching and new systems was going to be not so much of an embarrassment defensively because at the end of the day he does have good sides and instead his shot selection has just degraded.
- [50:15]
Brian Windhorst
He's just not been a serious basketball player.
- [50:18]
Zach Lowe
Thank you. That's well said. And so I'm reacting.
- [50:22]
Tim Bontemps
You said it before too.
- [50:23]
Zach Lowe
I'm. Yes, I have to. You guys were right on that. I fought against you at the beginning of the season. I was optimistic about Lamelo taking steps forward this year. In my opinion, he is not.
- [50:33]
Brian Windhorst
My Internet's a little fuzzy. What'd you say, Wendy?
- [50:36]
Zach Lowe
It is a little fuzzy right now. We can barely hear you.
- [50:39]
Brian Windhorst
It is, actually is. But I think you might have said that you guys were. What?
- [50:43]
Zach Lowe
You guys were correct. I was wrong. I was wrong. Okay. You have the Pistons eighth here. Bon Thames. And I don't disagree with you on this, but I. But I'd like you to, you know, explain why you have the mate because they're obviously going to be in the playoffs this year.
- [50:55]
Tim Bontemps
Look, the Pistons are having an awesome year. Cade Cunningham, as you said, hit that shot last night, he's going to make all NBA. I'm a huge Cade fan. I love the way the Pistons have played. Jimmy Bickerstaff has done a great job. They surrounded Cade with shooting for the first time. He looks like a totally different player. All that is true. The problem for the Pistons from a like looking at their rebuild standpoint is they clearly need another really high end guy next to Cade if they want to become a contender, like a true contender, not a team that's just making it to the playoffs. And if they're going to be a middle of the pack team in the first round or in the, in the east right now, that removes them from keeping their draft pick, which takes one potential path for them to get that kind of player. And Detroit is not a free agent destination. So it's hard to see them even with some free, some cap space signing up that kind of difference making player in free agency. So the other thing is to Detroit. Detroit's floor is already high and like for example, the two teams in front of them, New Orleans and Toronto, if they don't get Cooper, if they finish sixth, seventh, whatever in the lottery, they're not going to be ahead of Detroit if we did this again in July. But they have a way better chance of getting Cooper flag. And if you add Cooper flag to the young group of talent those teams have, they're going to be ahead of where Detroit is overall from a talent standpoint. So that's why they ended up there. It's not a commentary on Detroit season which has been awesome.
- [52:23]
Zach Lowe
Yeah, it's a tough, it's a tough methodology, but I think it's an interesting methodology. I, I, I see your rationale and but it does really underscore this is we already know but when you see it like this it just underscores why the lottery means so much which is why the tanking is going on right now. Because everybody else in the league that are these decision makers at these teams have the same analysis as Bontems here and they know the difference between being seventh or ninth in this is getting in that top four.
- [52:53]
Tim Bontemps
And by the way, the spurs would be right in that same middle of the Packer worse. They didn't win the lottery, but they did.
- [52:59]
Zach Lowe
Right. Which is why this tanking is going on. Which is why like I don't know, maybe the league doesn't, maybe it's truly not a priority and maybe the fines are just sort of to try to, you know, be performative. But they're either going to enforce their rules or they're not. And if the rule, if what's going on right now is not this tanking that we have right now is I don't know if it's as bad as it's ever been, but it's as widespread as it's ever been.
- [53:25]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, it's really bad. And look, this goes back to what I said on Tuesday that the man keeps referring to about Denver. I do want to talk about for one second because I've been misquoted by people in Denver who, a lot of whom have my number and have not bothered to contact me this week and I'm just said a lot of things without actually listening to What I said.
- [53:44]
Brian Windhorst
I think you should, I think you should put your number out there right now. Just.
- [53:48]
Tim Bontemps
I am not going to do that. And by the way, that doesn't include Michael Malone, who talked about this before the game yesterday and I thought said totally reasonable things and has been totally normal because Mike is great. Michael should say. What I said on Tuesday, actually was Nicole Jokic. I saw him play in Boston recently. He plays all the time. He's clearly playing through stuff.
- [54:08]
Brian Windhorst
I.
- [54:09]
Tim Bontemps
He does not sit out games. However, the league put in the player participation policy to try to emphasize nationally televised games and have star players playing in those games. And what I said was it was a bad look for the NBA that a marquee game featuring the best player on the planet, Nikola Jokic, and one of the best players of all time, Steph Curry, with both teams hot and playing great and potentially meeting in the playoffs, became another conversation about players not playing. Tom Abstro last, last night tweeted that 21 star players were not playing in games last night. Like, some of them were hurt, some of them were resting, whatever. It sucks that so much of our conversation about the sport, which we all like to do, we like to talk about the NBA on this podcast, goes back to guys being hurt or guys not playing. Like the Celtics had those five games in a row against elite teams recently. Not one of those five games did both teams have their complement of players available. Every one of them was either Boston guys out, the other team had guys out. And we always had to keep saying, well, the Celtics did not pozing us to Drew holiday or oh, LeBron got hurt or, or you know, Jalen Williams was out for the Thunder. Right? All these guys are hurt. Just like obviously Nicole Jokic didn't play again Wednesday. He's clearly banged up. He's been banged up for weeks. He never complained or he didn't play again. But you know, it's.
- [55:33]
Brian Windhorst
I think you said disgrace and then it got aggravated and then people.
- [55:37]
Tim Bontemps
I didn't say, I never said the Nuggets were a disgrace. I said it was a, it was a horrible and bad look for the NBA that this was the discussion again. And by the way, it's going to remain a discussion because we have guys hurt and not playing all over the place.
- [55:52]
Brian Windhorst
So I actually, I was a little surprised that they didn't play last night. They, they are clearly banged up. If this was a playoff game, would they play? Yes, but they wouldn't be at 100%. The Nuggets are prioritizing, trying to get their Stars fully healthy, overseeding. Obviously I did watch Jamal Murray play a brief little one on one game about two hours and change before tip off. And he was playing John Beckett, another friend of the pod.
- [56:19]
Tim Bontemps
That's right.
- [56:20]
Brian Windhorst
Nuggets assistant coach, former Eckerd college point guard. Now Hecker College is a nice D2 program. That's the one where I went through a preseason, then realized I'd be riding the pine. So I focused on my strengths at the time, which is partying. But I love jb. If he's getting buckets on Jamal Murray, he ain't ready to go out there and deal with an Austin Reeves type of guy. And in. And he was getting buckets on Jamal Murray. So that game was cut short. Michael Malone came out, they had a chat, the decision was made. You're not playing tonight, buddy. And then, you know, the Joker won me like that did actually really surprise me because I was there the night in Oklahoma City when Malone. This was the second night of that back to back. The Thunder had smacked him alone, tried to talk out, talk him out of playing that night. And Joker said, hell no. So I was like, there's no way he's going to sit against Luke and the Lakers. The last time, you know, the only time he seen the Lakers with Luke in uniform, the Lakers smacked him pretty good. I'm like, there's no way Joe's gonna sit this one out. But he did. And that tells you he's really, he's really dealing with some stuff. And I, I think the elbow is a pretty big concern. Like it's, you know, his three point shooting is really dipped. You know, last time that was the.
- [57:35]
Tim Bontemps
One he banged again in the Laker game, right, Tim?
- [57:37]
Brian Windhorst
I think so, but.
- [57:38]
Tim Bontemps
Or not the Laker game. I meant the Thunder game last year.
- [57:41]
Brian Windhorst
He took a, that's when he heard it.
- [57:42]
Zach Lowe
He took a call.
- [57:43]
Brian Windhorst
That's when he heard it in the first under game.
- [57:45]
Zach Lowe
Then he came back and played in the next under game.
- [57:48]
Brian Windhorst
Yeah, and I took a look, I got, you know, an up close look at it when he was warming up and there it was, there was several different colors of it. I mean it was black and blue for sure. And then he's been dealing with an ankle for a while and so, you know, we'll see when they're back. But oh, Michael Malone want to make sure every new. This is not rest.
- [58:06]
Tim Bontemps
This is well and they're also not a team that they're, they're not a team their guys play all the time. They just happened this happened to happen the night before. So I talked about them in the comments.
- [58:16]
Zach Lowe
Michael Malone has been a guest on our podcast Before Mike knows.
- [58:20]
Tim Bontemps
Yeah, which again, the people who, when he was on and said he didn't know who I was, that the people who said my name said it so poorly, I would assume he just didn't know who I was talking about. So.
- [58:31]
Brian Windhorst
Oh no, he landed, he landed a. Oh, that was a shot to the heart. Next time, next time I'm trying to mess with you, I'm just going to tell you I don't know who you.
- [58:38]
Tim Bontemps
Are because I thoroughly enjoyed, I thoroughly enjoyed his comment and he did exactly what he supposed to do. But that would none of that.
- [58:45]
Brian Windhorst
You didn't enjoy him as much as I did.
- [58:47]
Tim Bontemps
But yes, that's always true. The bottom line is it was not a commentary on Denver or on the Nuggets as much as a commentary on this being a very unfortunate ongoing problem that the league is dealing with. And we just spend an awful, awful lot of the time talking about key games where guys aren't playing. And it's just, it's not a good thing for the league.
- [59:12]
Zach Lowe
Okay. By the way, the, and I know that the two seed's gonna change dramatically. Probably will be different by the time this pod posts, but as of right now, the rockets with an 8th street with an 8. We talked about them a couple days ago on the pod. The Rockets have clawed from five to two with that eight game win streak.
- [59:32]
Tim Bontemps
And well, and by the way, to go back to the Wolves thing, right, here's who the Rockets have beat in that streak. The Pelicans twice, the Magic twice, the Suns, the Mavs, the Bulls and the Sixers. Now they play the Heat on Friday, but you know what they didn't do? Kick away any of those games which when you're in this race, that's what you got to do. You got to take advantage of the spots in your schedule where you can make ground up and do so. And Houston, like McMahon said, the Wolves have kicked away all sorts of games this year and the Rockets have it. That's why the Rockets are sitting where they are and the Wolves are in the plane.
- [60:03]
Zach Lowe
All right, everybody, have a nice day. Enjoy your time upstate on time. Seems like it's going great. All right, McMahon, enjoy your time in Los Angeles. Thank you for watching the Hoop Collective. Thank you for listening to the Hoop Collective and thank you to Jackson, our producer. We'll talk to you next week.
- [60:20]
Brian Windhorst
Adios, amigos.
- [60:26]
Tim Bontemps
Foreign.
- [60:33]
Zach Lowe
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