The Definitive Western Conference Finals Contenders, Cavs-Celtics Battle & Legendary Sonny Vaccaro Stories

Summary

Hoop Collective Podcast Summary Episode: The Definitive Western Conference Finals Contenders, Cavs-Celtics Battle & Legendary Sonny Vaccaro Stories
Release Date: February 28, 2025
Host: Brian Windhorst, with Tim Bontemps and Bam Adebayo McMahon

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1. Western Conference Finals Contenders

Discussion Highlights: Brian Windhorst initiates a deep dive into the current landscape of the Western Conference, evaluating which teams have the potential to win 12 playoff games and reach the Finals. The conversation primarily centers around the Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC) and the Denver Nuggets, with mentions of the Lakers and Warriors surging in performance.

Key Points:

• Oklahoma City Thunder (OKC):
  Bam Adebayo McMahon emphasizes the Thunder's impressive point differential, stating, "They have the best point differential in NBA history... I think OKC is about 50% to make the finals." (02:27)

• Denver Nuggets:
  Tim Bontemps recognizes Nikola Jokić's pivotal role, adding, "I think they have certainly improved as the season has gone on... Jamal Murray looking like the Jamal Murray from 2023 again." (03:57)

• Los Angeles Lakers:
  The Lakers' defensive strategies are scrutinized. Windhorst raises concerns about their wing-heavy defense potentially being exploitable in a playoff series, particularly against teams that can challenge them with perimeter shooting. He muses, "Do I believe their defense can hold up?... I will entertain the possibility to the point where I may make reservations in LA." (07:52)

• Golden State Warriors:
  While acknowledging their balanced team and defensive solidity, Tim expresses skepticism about their deep playoff run due to their aging roster and reliance on veteran players like Steph Curry, Draymond Green, and Jimmy Butler. "They're a more balanced team than the Lakers overall... but their tiny roster may struggle in the playoffs." (12:00)

Notable Quotes:

• Bam Adebayo McMahon:
  "They have a nine game lead. They have the best point differential in the history of the league." (02:27)

• Tim Bontemps:
  "If we would have said one year ago today, who was going to make the Finals in the Western Conference, wouldn't have had the Mavericks in there." (05:18)

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2. Cavs vs Celtics Battle

Discussion Highlights: The hosts shift focus to the Eastern Conference, specifically analyzing the Cleveland Cavaliers' (Cavs) recent performance and their matchup against the Boston Celtics. DeAndre Hunter's acquisition and his impact on the Cavs are central to this segment.

Key Points:

• Cavaliers' Performance:
  Brian notes the Cavs' strong record, "The Cavs have won 12 out of 13 games... their average margin of victory in those six games is 23 points." (24:11) Bam counters, asserting the importance of their upcoming game against the Celtics for confidence, despite their current standings.

• DeAndre Hunter's Trade:
  Bam discusses Hunter's role as a perimeter defender, "We've got to see how we can get to the point where we can beat a team like Boston." (27:35) Brian adds, "What I'll be interested in is what the Cavs actually do with DeAndre Hunter." (28:38)

• Donovan Mitchell's Development:
  The Cavs' strategy to reduce Donovan Mitchell's workload has allowed teammates like Evan Mobley and Darius Garland to elevate their performances. Bam praises Mitchell's leadership, "Donovan's been a huge development for him and for the Cavaliers." (29:54)

• Injuries Impact:
  Discussions include Jaylen Brown and Drew Holiday's injuries affecting the Celtics, potentially influencing the Cavs' strategies and outcomes. "Jaylen Brown is questionable with a thigh injury and Drew Holiday is questionable with a finger injury." (28:58)

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Bontemps:
  "Can Jalen Williams step up in that moment and be the kind of player they need him to be?" (15:23)

• Bam Adebayo McMahon:
  "Donovan not caring what his stats are has been a huge development for him and for the Cavaliers." (29:54)

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3. Legendary Sonny Vaccaro Stories

Special Guest: Armin Kitayan
Brian Windhorst hosts Armin Kitayan to discuss the memoir of Sonny Vaccaro, an influential figure in basketball, known for his pivotal role in athlete endorsements.

Key Points:

• Sonny Vaccaro's Influence:
  Armin delves into Vaccaro's impact on the NBA, highlighting his role in signing Michael Jordan to Nike and Kobe Bryant to Adidas. "Sonny has delivered Jordan to Nike, he delivers Kobe to Adidas." (52:51)

• Michael Jordan-Nike Story:
  The narrative covers how Vaccaro convinced Phil Knight to invest in Michael Jordan, asserting his vision of Jordan as a game-changing athlete. "Sonny puts his job on the line by Nike saying, take all your endorsement money and roll it all into one. Go all in on Michael Jordan." (40:48)

• Kobe Bryant-Adidas Story:
  Vaccaro recounts Kobe's first interactions with Adidas and the strategic maneuvers that led to Kobe signing with them, despite initial skepticism. "There's this great moment where... Kobe schools Michael Cooper in a workout... Jerry West watches it and knows they need to figure out a way." (49:32)

• LeBron James Endorsement:
  The discussion touches on the potential implications if LeBron had signed with Adidas, suggesting it could have altered the landscape of athlete endorsements. "Sonny said LeBron is the perfect endorser for a shoe company because he's so clean." (52:51)

Notable Quotes:

• Sonny Vaccaro:
  "He's the perfect endorser for a shoe company because he's so, he's so clean in that way." (52:51)

• Brian Windhorst:
  "All you need to know about Sonny Vaccaro is he was in on the ground floor of Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James." (52:51)

Insights & Conclusions:

• Truth in Storytelling:
  The memoir positions Sonny Vaccaro as a truthful narrator, contrasting with other accounts that may prioritize different perspectives.

• Impact on NBA Endorsements:
  Vaccaro's decisions significantly shaped the endorsement landscape, influencing how major brands invest in athletes.

• Future Implications:
  The stories underscore the lasting impact of strategic endorsements on both athlete careers and brand success within the NBA.

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Final Thoughts

The episode provides an in-depth analysis of the current NBA playoff landscape, highlighting the strengths and potential pitfalls of top contenders in both the Western and Eastern Conferences. Additionally, the special segment with Armin Kitayan offers valuable historical insights into Sonny Vaccaro's influential role in shaping athlete endorsements, emphasizing the profound effects of his decisions on the league's marketing dynamics.

Notable Closing Quote:

• Brian Windhorst:
  "All you need to know about Sonny Vaccaro is he was in on the ground floor of Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James." (52:51)

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This summary captures the essence of the Hoop Collective podcast episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened while retaining the depth and pivotal moments discussed by the hosts and their special guest.

Transcript

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[Brian Windhorst]

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday afternoon. Joining us from New York City, sure he's looking forward to his next trip to see the Sixers because he sees the Sixers every few days, is Tim Bontemps.

[Tim Bontemps]

Hello, everybody. I'm going to Cavs corner tomorrow. Today. Tomorrow there's a game, no Sixers in my near future.

[Brian Windhorst]

There's a game in Cleveland tomorrow.

[Tim Bontemps]

Joining me from not in Cleveland, not in Cleveland, but involves Cleveland, Boston.

[Brian Windhorst]

You're right, my bad. Joining me from upstairs here in our LA office. He's wearing makeup. Is Bam McMahon Partners.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Bon Tims does not want to go to Cleveland because Moondog said he was a distant third in his favorite Hoop Collective personalities.

[Tim Bontemps]

I like going to Cleveland just fine. I've gone there plenty of times, which I'm just not going there today. The day of the pot. I'm going to Boston.

[Brian Windhorst]

Win, place or show. Somebody's got a show McMahon. Later on the podcast, we're going to have a special guest on Armin Katayn, which I'll tell you about later. But first, we've got some. Some interesting Western Conference games coming up here. The Lakers are playing the Timberwolves tonight, which podcast will come out then. They got a couple of games over the weekend with the Clippers. And, you know, one of the things that we've seen develop over the last couple days as the warriors continue to win without Jimmy Butler, and that'll guarantee. Or with Jimmy Butler, that'll guarantee they'll lose tonight in Orlando, even though Orlando has been awful for. For like two months now is really this kind of evaluation on, you know, just how many teams in this Western Conference can actually win this thing. And, you know, there's a perpetual disregard for the Thunder. There's. There's nothing I can do. Nothing. Bon Temps and I are. Are. Believe the th. Our contender, our leaders to win the West. Where are you at McMahon on the Thunder. Do you believe? Are they Your favorite?

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yes. I believe the team that has the best point differential in NBA history is the favorites in the Western Conference.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, apparently that's a hot take. Apparently that's a hot take because I said as much on NBA Today yesterday and our social team put it out with, like, the eyes emojis.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Oh, wow.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. But anyway, what a concept.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

I mean, they have a nine game lead. They have the best point differential in the history of the league. I mean, how could you say anybody else is the favorites?

[Tim Bontemps]

Seems like a pretty good case to me. What do I know?

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. But in the spirit of paying attention to what's happening in the west, where the Lakers and Warriors are surging, Denver is surging, I want to have a frank conversation. I don't want to know how many contenders you think are in the west, because contenders is a, you know, a fungible word that can mean a whole bunch of different things. I want to know how many teams do we think can win 12 playoff games in the Western Conference? Three series, first of four. That's 12. McMahon. How many teams can win 12 games and reach the Finals? How many places do I need to make hotel reservations? I've got them in Oklahoma City.

[Tim Bontemps]

That's the question. How many. How many reservations do I need for the finals?

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right. I've got them in Oklahoma City. I've got them in Oklahoma City, Cleveland and Boston. That's where I've got them right now. I'm prepared to expand my list.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Well, Denver, you have to, like, come on. Denver's got to be there.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right. Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, let's start. I have four. I have four cities saved.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, go ahead.

[Tim Bontemps]

Let's have those four cities. Cleveland, Boston in the east, Oklahoma City and Denver in the West.

[Brian Windhorst]

So you're saying you think Denver and Oklahoma City, in your view?

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm giving Nicole Jokic. I'm giving Nicole Jokic the credit as being the best player on the planet and thinking he can win 12 games. He also has won 12 games. Think Denver is good enough to do it? I think they have certainly improved as the season has gone on. And most importantly, they have Nicole Jokic as arguably the best player. And they have Jamal Murray looking like the Jamal Murray from 2023 again, finally. So I think that gives them a chance to get through. But, yeah, I mean, to me, the. The Thunder are the clear and obvious favorites. I think they're the fairly massive favorites to get to the Finals. And like I said a couple weeks ago, I think it's at this point a real Disappointment if the Thunder don't make it to the Finals. I mean, you could talk about how young they are. You could talk about all these other things. Like McMahon said, this is a team with a historic regular season and there's not a team sitting out there like Boston or arguably even Cleveland in the West. So, yeah, I, I think it's Oklahoma City. I'm giving a tip of the cap to Denver and no disrespect to everybody else, but I don't see anybody else is getting there. And I will say, look, people are going to get mad in LA and other places. If we would have said one year ago today, who was going to make the Finals in the Western Conference, wouldn't have had the Mavericks in there. And they went 18 and two down the stretch and got out of the play in and went on a crazy run and got there. So is that to say that somebody couldn't emerge? Sure. But as we're sitting here on.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, that's why this is a relevant conversation, because we've had. Two years ago, we had a play in team and the Lakers make the conference finals. And last year we had what the McMahon. They were the 5 seed, right?

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yes.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay.

[Tim Bontemps]

Two years ago in the east, we had a team make the plane, come out of the plane to make the Finals.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yeah. So the Mavericks won three straight series where they were the road team to start. I'm sorry, I just. I was looking at my hotel reservations for the Finals. I just now canceled Philadelphia. I think that was a safe call.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian Windhorst]

Are you sure that second thing. Are you sure you want to cancel this?

[Tim Bontemps]

You can cancel the playing reservations there, too, I think, at this point.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. So McMahon, how many places do you got reservations still? Where else are you canceling?

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Well, and I made mine a while ago. I did make Memphis, I did make Minnesota. We're just talking west. Right. So Memphis, Minnesota, Denver and okc. Is, Is. Is what I've got.

[Brian Windhorst]

Are you retaining those reservations?

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

I mean. Yeah, because I've got them. So still within the realm of possibility, I do not have it for the.

[Brian Windhorst]

Purposes of this exercise. Not actually, you know. So, you know, are you. Are you holding reservations in those places? You're still. So you're saying you think Memphis was winning 12, can win 12 games? Not that they're going to.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

I. I think it is very unlikely, I would say. I don't think they have a 5% chance. I don't think Minnesota has a 5% chance. If you're giving. If, if 5% is like the.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think we're going to use the Daryl Morey rule. What teams have a 5% chance.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

I think OKC is about 50, I think Denver's about 35. I think the Lakers. Maybe you could talk me into the Lakers cracking 5% and then I think you were trickling in some single digit ones, one of which I wouldn't have to get a hotel anyway.

[Tim Bontemps]

I know the Lakers just beat the D, the Nuggets in Denver for the first time in I think three years. I'm going to need to see them win a few more games like that before and putting them in that category as well as they've played in as good as they've looked of late.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Well, the reason I put the lakers in the 5% category is LeBron is still playing at a no brainer all NBA level and obviously the guy is, you know, he's been to umpteen finals and Luca is absolutely capable of carrying a team to a playoff series victory at least once or twice during a playoff run. So you know, when you, when you've got two of the top, I'm going to say eight players in the league, then I think you've got a 5% chance to win your conference.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, to me with the Lakers, it all comes down to whether or not this defense is legitimate. If the way that they're playing defense, which is wing heavy, pack the paint, allow a lot of threes. We were running the numbers today. The Lakers coming into this game tonight against Minnesota, they, you know the day, every, the day everyone's got circles is January 15th. Since January 15th, they're like 15 and 4. They are number one in defense, defensive efficiency in that time and they've allowed the third most three point attempts in that time. So what JJ Redick is doing and their team has changed a lot in that time. And I think Anthony, Dave, Anthony Davis played, I think of those 19 games, I think Anthony Davis played in seven of them, seven or eight. So it's not a clean comparison going forward. But in that stretch they've played essentially this system where they're protecting the paint with their wings because they don't have tremendous rim protection with their bigs. And so the question is, do, do I believe or anybody believe that that defense can hold up? I think it's an interesting, it's a bit, it's an interesting maneuver from JJ Redick who certainly as a three point shooter he may believe that more people are taking high volume threes than should and maybe that they can lean into that. And I certainly think if you're going to play that way in a series, you're risking getting exposed every now and then. And of course it depend who you're playing. If they keep the defense up, and I'm not saying number one, but if they continue to win games with decent defense, I will entertain the possibility to the point where I may make reservations in la. I, I just, I just know that Luke, you know, not the way Luka's playing right now, but I know that Luka can carry a team through a playoff series. And I know LeBron, maybe not through a whole series, but certainly could make. Be the difference in two games in a series, and I respect that. If their defense can get it close, LeBron and Luka can bring it home. That's the best way to say it. And so I'm, so, I, you know, I'm going to make Denver. I'm, I think I'm going to make LA too.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

What about the Bay?

[Tim Bontemps]

We'll see if Brian's a true ESPN employee. He's already, he's already gone off the deep end on the Lakers. We'll see if he can go off the deep end on the warriors.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, I'm 5%. So, so you're saying they failed to make, make the 5% rule.

[Tim Bontemps]

They're starting Jackson Hayes at center.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree. And they're.

[Tim Bontemps]

I don't, I don't. Yeah. As we've talked about, as we talked about on the last podcast, I don't care about basically all of the games before Saturday. So, you know, come back to me on March 21, and I want to look from Saturday to March 20 when they play the Bucks.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay, well, on March 21, I can cancel the reservation, but I think I'm going to make them.

[Tim Bontemps]

I, I mean, that's your, it's your list. I, that's just my, I don't buy. I'm not worried about their defense over the last month.

[Brian Windhorst]

I am because I know they're going to score. What? As I, I, as I ignored them for the first part of the season and I, I was considering putting a ban on talking about them.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Oh.

[Brian Windhorst]

It was because I can't take A team ranked 24th in defense seriously. So if I, if that's my rule, I have to take seriously a team ranked first in defense.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Also, we were going to talk about them after they traded for Luca or they were ranked 34th in defense.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, not on this pod. We don't have to do that.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Oh, yes, we would have.

[Tim Bontemps]

The other night. The other night.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

I got books to sell. We were going to talk.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And the other night, I mean there were stretches of the game where Austin Reeves is guarding Kyrie Irving and had to do it. So I, I would, that's all I would say from a. I'm not really buying that as a team that's got the number one defense in the NBA. So let's see where they're at after the next few weeks.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

I'm also skeptical on the six week defense thing, but you cannot deny the star power. And as far as Jackson Hayes being the starting center, I, I think he'll play like a dozen minutes a game in the playoffs. I think they're.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, I understand that. I'm not saying Jackson Hayes going to be a 35 minute player. It's just, it's a massive liability to their team. They have no size to the point where the Lilliputian Mavericks were killing them.

[Brian Windhorst]

On the board in Oklahoma City. Have liabilities.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, that's why I think the list ends at 2 and I'm only going 2 because Denver has the best player on the planet.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Hold on, what about, what about old Splash and Crash, Steph and Jimmy?

[Tim Bontemps]

Look, the warriors have gotten off to a great start with these guys. They have the same problem, a lot of the same problems that the Lakers do. I think they're a more balanced team than the Lakers overall. They're probably not quite as good offensively. I think they're overall much more solid at the defensive end. But ultimately you're talking about a tiny roster that when you're going through the playoffs in the west, they're going to have a lot of time, a lot of, they're going to have a lot of difficulty beating some of these bigger, more physical teams as they go through. And you're also talking about a roster where you got three guys 35 and older in Steph Draymond and Jimmy that you're relying on to carry you for the next four months. And I think the odds are those guys are not going to hold up over that. Stretchy.

[Brian Windhorst]

So McMahon, if you were, if you were starting from today and you didn't have pre existing reservations that you made months ago, where would you make them? Because you're, you're, you're hedging. They saying that you're not canceling, but give it to me.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yeah, OKC and Denver and then I'd, I might make one in la. I'd consider it depending on the rate. If the rate was really good.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, no worry about the rate. I'm just the Concept. Now, I'm not actually talking about the mechanics of holding the room.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Oklahoma City and Denver, I think you're. I think you're 85 to 90% between those two.

[Brian Windhorst]

Are you putting down a deposit for a table at the bar previously known as the Pink Parrot? Are you confident enough to put down a non refundable bottle? I don't even know the term.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Well, first of all, I don't do. I don't think it's a bottle service type of joint, nor do I think bottle service. But yes, I will go ahead and make a reservation there. Considering that I'm on scholarship. I'm very. It's the Goat opening up as a sports bar. The Goat shout out. Also the Tipsy Tiki right there. The river will be hanging out of both of them.

[Brian Windhorst]

Wendy, I will say this. The Goat is a great name for a sports bar. It's a great name for a sports bar.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

It's not bad.

[Tim Bontemps]

Look, if I just, if you just did a blank. You just did a blank look at the stats for the Thunder and you just said, what would your percentage be on a team with these, with this resume? MVP candidate, top 3 MVP candidate, player, best net rating of all time. Top 5 offense and defense, dominant 9 or 10 game lead over the rest of the conference. You wouldn't say 50% of them making the finals. You'd say 60 or 70 or 80% of them making.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree with that.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yeah, but then you'd say, hold on. They do group interviews and they're kind of nerdy.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, it's beyond that. That's not really that. It's. It's that their average age is like 24.8.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, it's, it's all of it.

[Brian Windhorst]

It's that and that they've won one playoff series as a group.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yeah, they haven't done it. And until, until a team does it, there's going to be a whole bunch of doubt. So that's where they are right now.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. I was talking to somebody in the GM in the Western Conference and I was saying, you know, how do you feel about the Thunder not getting respect? And you know, he's like, I don't think. He's like, why should they get respect? He wasn't being dismissive to them. He was like, he's like, he's like, you shouldn't get respect until you've done it before.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Honestly, like I, we're, I talk to a lot of people around the Western Commerce too. And I talk to like coaches on other teams that'll be in the playoff mix. And there is not like this great fear of the Oklahoma City Thunder, whether.

[Brian Windhorst]

There should be anybody. I was talking to a head coach yesterday and he said, we all think we can beat each other. We're all flawed and we all think we can beat each other.

[Tim Bontemps]

Well, and look, if we're being, if we're being serious, the Thunder discussion really just comes down to Jalen Williams. That's the, that's the question, everybody. When you go into a series with a team like that, you know, Shay is going to ball and he's going to put up numbers. The question is, and their defense is going to be awesome. They've got the two bigs, they can play a thousand different ways. They've got, you know, experienced veteran role players now. Guys like Isaiah Hartenstein and Alex Caruso, like, you know, Lou Dort's played in the playoffs now a bunch, they've got a bunch of different guys. What they don't necessarily have is that truly reliable second scorer deep in the playoffs. And that's what the spring is going to be about. Can Jalen Williams step up in that moment and be the kind of player they need him to be? That. That's where the doubts come from, I would say.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Or Chet Holmgren, because I do think, you know, Jalen Williams has obviously Chet's been out this year. So Jalen Williams has established himself as that number two guy on a consistent basis. But coming into the season, it was 2A, 2B.

[Tim Bontemps]

I think Chad is their second best player. But I think from this standpoint, what I'm talking about, it's about the person that's creating offense and running the team when Shea isn't on the court and is the second guy on the perimeter, because you look at all these elite.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Level, Shea's not going to be on the court for about six minutes of playoff.

[Tim Bontemps]

I'm just saying you need a second guy on the perimeter to be a reliable big time scorer. In a deep playoff run like that, you need somebody else to step up and do it. And like for Denver, the second guy, even though they're not perimeter guys because Jokic is inside, the second guy for them is Jamal Murray and the second guy for Boston is Jaylen Brown. The second guy, you know, we'll see what the second guy for Cleveland is going to be. But like last year it was Luke and Kyrie. Well, I just wait, there is. Garland has to do it in the playoffs. He hasn't done it in the playoffs yet. So last year you had Luka and Then you had Kyrie, right? And if you had another guy that you knew could get going in any playoff game, put up huge numbers, I think that is the biggest question mark, and we've talked about it a bunch. I think that's the biggest question mark about this Thunder team. Obviously, the, the role players have to hit threes, which they didn't in the MAV series, and Jalen Williams struggled offensively in the MAV series, and Jalen Williams has gotten a lot better, deserve to make the All Star team. But that, I think, is where the question and the doubt about the Thunder comes in is like, what is Jalen Williams going to look like in the spring? And that's the fun thing about the playoffs, is we're going to find out.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

And while Jalen Williams is a critical part of their defense, for example, last year in the series where he really struggled offensively, he was the primary defender on Kyrie Irving. He doesn't need to be the, you know, maybe in the starting lineup, but they've, they've got Lou Dort, Kayson, Wallace, Alex Caruso. He's not going to be the primary defender on a guy like Kyrie Irving or, you know, Desmond Bain or whoever they end up matching up against, you know, that, that number two guy, he's not gonna have to do that for 35 minutes a night in the playoffs.

[Brian Windhorst]

If the Lakers play the Thunder in the second round of the playoffs, Luca.

[Tim Bontemps]

Entire network, including Brian, is going to pick the Lakers to win.

[Brian Windhorst]

First off, I don't make predictions.

[Tim Bontemps]

Secondly, that was not, that was not a no. McMahon was not a no. It was just, just a runaway. Just.

[Brian Windhorst]

Secondly, that is going to be extremely fascinating because if the Thunder.

[Tim Bontemps]

Is it actually going to be fascinating?

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, I do. Because if the Thunder win 4 1, we're gonna know that they're ready to go.

[Tim Bontemps]

Okay.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

You know, and it's interesting because last.

[Tim Bontemps]

Year, that's a different answer. I thought you were saying it was going to go seven games.

[Brian Windhorst]

No.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yeah. Last year I thought the Lakers were a really tough matchup for the Thunder because the Lakers were big and physical and AD Was a huge problem for the Thunder, which, hey, if AD Is healthy, the Mavericks can be a tough matchup for him, too. I don't know if the Lakers are as tough of a matchup for them now because the Lakers aren't nearly as big and the, you know, the Thunder are a lot bigger now. You know, dealing with Luke and LeBron's not a picnic. But I, I, I would think Oklahoma City would win that series and not have to have a game seven More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Armin Kitayan]

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[Brian Windhorst]

Well, speaking of Texas, before we move on, Gregg Popovich put out a statement today and I'm going to read the statement in full because I think the verbiage is important and it's also not a long statement. I have decided not to return to the sidelines this season. Mitch Johnson and his staff have done a wonderful job and the resolve and professionalism the players have shown sticking together during a challenging season has been outstanding. I will continue to focus on my help with the hope that I can return to coaching in the future. It's good to hear from Gregg Popovich, number one. Number two, I think there were two important things in this statement of three sentences. One, I have decided not to return. Nobody else has decided. Not my doctors, not ownership, not RC Buford, not a vote of the fans, not Victor Wembanyama, whatever. I as team president have decided not to return. Secondly, while he certainly doesn't commit to anything, he makes it Very clear. He is not retiring.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

No, that, that to me was the most important part with the hope of returning to coaching in the future. That is the most important part. It makes it clear that as far as Pop is concerned, the plan is that he will continue as the coach of the San Antonio Spurs, I presume next season. But very clearly this is not Pop riding off into the sunset.

[Brian Windhorst]

They say two things. One, remember, and we all wish him the best and we all don't know exactly what his health situation is. Let's just get those two things out of the way. One, remember in 2023 when Victor was going to be a rookie, he signed a five year contract extension. Not that he needed to sign an extension like that. He obviously doesn't have job security issues, but the fact that he signed a five year extension wasn't. It was a signal to everybody, I'm going to be the coach for foreseeable future. Don't be looking at my job. Victor, I'm going to be your coach. That's number one. So we know that's what his plan was. Number two, this does put the spurs in an interesting situation because if he's making it clear the organ, you know, the organization has to have been thinking about what it's going to do and now it's making it clear that like he wants to continue coaching. And so they, the spurs don't have a choice assuming that he remains in the president's job and has the ultimate say. But it does make you wonder if they do something about having a coach in waiting, a more formalized coach in.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Waiting, that, that will be interesting. You know, the other thing this does is potential Pop replacements who are established head coaches elsewhere I think will no longer be, no longer have any interest because nobody wants to be the guy who is perceived as trying to push Pop out. That's just not something that anybody, no one's going to put themselves in position to be disrespectful of a legend.

[Tim Bontemps]

I totally agree with Grant both on the most important thing being he plans on coaching and that I think people for a lot of reasons are going to be reticent to be seen like they're trying to push the guy out from the spurs to people elsewhere. And so it's going to make for an interesting spring to see what the spurs decide to do after they just made a big call to trade for the Aaron Fox and you've got the whole Victor Wembanyama blood clot situation to sort out and you've got this to sort out. I mean, there's a lot of things to be excited about for the spurs, but there's also a lot of questions and it's going to be an interesting summer ahead.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. The CAVS have won 12 out of 13 games. The loss was the game that McMahon, you were at in Cleveland. Since DeAndre Hunter got to Cleveland, the Cavs not only have been six zero, but their average margin of victory in those six games is 23 points. Hunter is plus 46 in those six games and he was, I think he was zero in game one. So plus 46 his last five. They specifically traded for him to have him to be used in this, in this potential playoff series. Not that I expect what happens on Friday to determine everything Bon temps. But the team that the Cavs lost to the Celtics against two weeks ago, three weeks ago, whenever it was, is not the same team. Also, Dean Wade is back who gives them some perimeter defensive assignment options. The Celtics had been looking great. They won six in a row. They go to Detroit and, and get handed.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, they, they had a couple injuries in the second half and faded down the stretch. Another great performance from Detroit. Up to eight in a row. Second night of a back to back for Boston Pistons continue to look awesome. I mean, I, the, the simple question I have about this game is how important is this game for Cleveland?

[Brian Windhorst]

I don't think it's that important, to be honest.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

I disagree with that. I disagree with that.

[Tim Bontemps]

That seems like calf's corner homer. Pom poms out.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Oh yeah. Old Moon, Old Moondog made an appearance here. Just put the, put on the furry little head. Wendy.

[Brian Windhorst]

No, I think they now have a seven game lead in the loss column.

[Tim Bontemps]

It's not about that. The Cavs, the Cavs made, the cavs made the DeAndre hunter trade as a direct result of their games against Boston and the matchup with the Celtics. Right. If they go into this game and they get smacked, I'm not saying they're going to get smacked, but let's say they lose by 20. Let's say that the Celtics handle them in this game. Right? That's not going to be a great statement.

[Brian Windhorst]

I agree.

[Tim Bontemps]

Going into the playoffs now, if it's competitive, but I don't think they have to necessarily win the game. But to me this is about can the Cavs go out there and go toe to toe with Boston in Boston and have a quality game and show they can go up against the Celtics and have it be a really competitive matchup? Because look, going into last weekend, this time a week ago, we're saying, and the Knicks are in a different spot. But it was, hey, the Knicks have the Cavs, the Knicks have the Celtics. Let's see where the Knicks sit. And the Knicks got rocked twice. And the entire look at the Knicks now is totally different. And obviously Cleveland's had a better year. Cavs are going to be the one seed. All those things are true. But I, I think this is an important game from a optical and confidence level standpoint for Cleveland to go in there and show they can hang with the Celtics and potentially beat them on the road.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, by the way, in the three games they played this year, Boston's 2 and 1. They played the first game in Boston. Boston won by three. But if I remember Bond temps, I think it. I don't think it was quite that close.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Cavs were down pretty heavy and then came back in the third quarter and made it competitive.

[Brian Windhorst]

And then, okay, then their game in Cleveland, the Cavs won by four. But I feel like it was the same thing. I don't really think it was that.

[Tim Bontemps]

The Cavs. Well, no, the Cavs. The Cavs outscored the Celtics by 16 in the fourth quarter and came back and won the game. It was a lot like the game the year before in February in Cleveland when the Celtics were up. Most of the game fell apart late.

[Brian Windhorst]

That's right. That's right. It was the, the second game in Cleveland where it was like, it ended up being like a 12 point game, but it was actually a much more lopsided.

[Tim Bontemps]

Correct. That one was the last one right before the trade deadline.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Right.

[Tim Bontemps]

Which then led to, you know, at least partially right. Helped the Cavs decide to trade for DeAndre Hunter.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yeah, that was a, that was a seven point game.

[Brian Windhorst]

That was seven points.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Yeah, I was there for. But it, yeah, Cleveland control or the. Boston jumped out to a big lead early, controlled the game. The outcome was never in doubt. And again, Kenny Atkinson was very honest and blunt, really, both before and after the game. I don't know if he used the words measuring stick, but basically like, hey, we've got to see how, you know, their record hadn't been great against the better teams leading up to that. We've got to see how we fare in these games in a game like this. And then, you know, after the game he's like, we really got to study it and see how we can, you know, get to the point where we can beat a team like Boston. And they went out and. And made a trade for a guy who is a big, athletic wing that certainly helps them have a better chance to match up against the big athletic wings that the Celtics have.

[Brian Windhorst]

So what I'll be interested. A couple of things. One, what the Cavs actually do with DeAndre Hunter. They've been moving their starting lineup around a little bit, but they're, you know, well, Darius Garland, the injury report isn't out. He has his hip injuries missed the last two games, but I think they're. I don't think it's a serious injury, and I think they were kind of saving him for this. So I would not be surpr. Surprised if he's.

[Tim Bontemps]

And Jaylen Brown is questionable with a thigh injury and Drew Holiday is questionable with a finger injury also.

[Brian Windhorst]

But we'll see how much they deploy. Hunter. He's guarded when he was in Atlanta. He really has. He's gotten a lot of reps against Brown and, and Tatum. And by the way, Boston's record's pretty good. Although earlier this year, the Hawks, you know, did beat the Celtics twice and.

[Tim Bontemps]

Setting it up. Setting it up.

[Brian Windhorst]

One of the things that happens when you watch Cavs games this year is Donovan Mitchell has the. Has several different gears. One of the things that they've done this year really well is he's, he's dialed back at times and let Evan Mobley or Darius Garland go. It's been tremendously successful. Mitchell playing with a little bit, you know, less usage rate, little bit less of. Of less minutes, less shots has helped those two guys become all Stars.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Donovan. Donovan, not caring what his stats are, has been a huge development for him and for the Cavaliers. The fact that his minutes and his numbers are down a little bit, to me is proof of his maturity and his leadership.

[Brian Windhorst]

Absolutely. And it's also been smart to protect him. And I would, I would argue watching him throughout the year, he's gotten stronger and stronger. Like, if you remember, he had like 2 dunks in like the first, like 35ish games. Not that that's the be all end all, but you could. And you look at these last like 10 or 15 games, his bounce looks way, way better. I think they're getting rewarded for reducing his workload. But there are also times in the last Sunday's game against Memphis as an example, when Darius Garland is out where he has downshifted into historic Mitchell and gone hard. So part of, I think what you see in regular season games is you see him choosing a gear. Not that he's taking it easy, but you see him choosing a gear. So one of the things that you want to watch for isn't just for the certain matchups that happen. I want to see whether Donovan is what gear he's in. The other thing is, in the games this year, the Celtics have use Jason Tatum basically at defensive center a lot, guarding Jared Allen, and the Cavs haven't always been able to take advantage of that.

[Tim Bontemps]

So what the Knicks did, again, what they did against the Knicks, too, had him on Carl Towns a lot.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

When do you know how? Today. On NBA Today, I mentioned Chris Finch's challenge to Ann Edwards has been, hey, empower your teammates as much with your game as you do with your personality. That's what Donovan Mitchell's been able to do this year. He's empowering his teammates with his game. And frankly, it's a learned leadership skill.

[Brian Windhorst]

In all honesty, like, you know, spots four and five, I think Tatum's probably going to be in fourth and mvp, but spot five and mvp, you know, not for nothing, like, it doesn't mean that much, but, like, I had Jalen Brunson in there last time around. I feel good about that. And Jalen Brunson, for example, had an MVP performance on Wednesday night where he carried him home.

[Tim Bontemps]

But, like, to me, it's either him or Donovan Mitchell for just that reason.

[Brian Windhorst]

Like, Donovan might have earned it just because he's helped these two guys. And by the way, it was also Kenny Atkinson's, you know, part of, you know, this is part of the reason why Kenny Atkinson is a favorite for coach of the Year because of his partnership in designing this concept with Donovan. Donovan had to buy it and execute it.

[Tim Bontemps]

Yeah, well, last year in the playoffs, you know, I was at the series, right? Donovan hurt his. Hurt his quad and couldn't finish the series and wore down as the. As the things went on. And it's very clear from the beginning, the goal was to get to the end of the season and be in a different place physically than he'd been the last couple years when they had grinded their way to every single game. And, you know, the. The goal was to get to the playoffs two years ago, right? Then they got to the playoffs. They got absolutely smoked by the Knicks. Then last year, the. The expectation was to try to win around, and they did everything they could to lose to Orlando. They wheezed through that series, and then they get smacked by the Celtics. Now it's like, all right, like, JB Bickerstaff got let go and Kenny Atkinson get brought in to, like, try to level this thing up, right? And that's where it's been impressive. From the way the Cavs have approached this whole season from Donovan Mitchell on down, because they have attacked it like a team that has real expectations of making the kind of run they want to have. And that goes back to the way Donovan has empowered those guys, which I don't think, you know, you can't speak enough to, to McMahon's point. And it the way he's, like you said, built himself into the season so that the hope for Cleveland is that he's at his peak in late May or, you know, in late April and May and June when they're hopefully making a really deep run.

[Brian Windhorst]

All right, we will look for your forward to your reporting from Cleveland or from Boston. I keep thinking it's in Cleveland. Sorry.

[Tim Bontemps]

Watch it in Cleveland. McGregor wants an extra home game.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, we'll see. I know the, I know the Cavs with the seven game lead in the Lost column are thinking they're going to have home court in that potential.

[Tim Bontemps]

Certainly. They certainly are. Certainly good.

[Brian Windhorst]

Before we go, I had a really nice discussion with Armin Kitayan about his new book, basically the memoir of Sonny Vaccaro, who's wrote it with him. And we're going to have that right now right after this.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

[Brian Windhorst]

Okay. Now this is a special thing that I'm doing here. I get, I get a lot of books sent to me. I have a lot of authors pitched to me, which I am happy to have on as an author myself. And I'm happy to read these books. And just within the last week I had an author on. This one is different. So my guest right now is Armin Kitayan, who if you're a person of a certain age, you are ubiquitous, Armin, because you have written six bestsellers and you have like 10 or 15 Emmys and you were on 60 Minutes and you were on ABC and NBC. Some of the podcast listeners and viewers may be able to skew a little younger. Arma Kitain is a legend as a journalist. Okay. So my respect for him is immense. And let me just say that this book that we're going to talk about, I have not read, I have not had it sent to me. And I'm not saying that, Armin, because I wanted it. I'm very excited about it. My point is, is that when I found out about this book, I was personally excited. I am genuinely excited to consume it. And that's why I wanted to have Armin on to talk about it. He has co written a book called In Legends and Souls or actually called Legends and Souls, soles, S O L E S as in shoes. It's basically the memoir Sonny Vaccaro, who is a transformational figure in basketball. But before I talk about Sonny, Armin, I just want to say, you know the book that you wrote with Jeff Benedict on Tiger woods, which if you're a golf fan or a Tiger fan, you have done many great projects in your career. But I will just tell you as somebody who's written books on very high profile athlete who doesn't necessarily give you 35 hours of interviews. The book on I writ, I read. As a golf fan, I've read and I'm filibustering. I haven't even, haven't even let you talk yet. Armin, I'm sorry. That book is such an impressive, incredible work of storytelling without access. It's been made into a documentary or the basis of a documentary. I highly encourage you to check that book out as well. As long as I've got Armin here. Armin, first off, thank you for coming on and welcome. I wish you could tell me how this process came together because Sonny Vaccaro, if you don't know who he is, I feel like we were wasting time. I mean, they made a movie about it. Ben Affleck played Phil Knighton. Matt Damon played Sonny Vacara, which is laughable if you know Sonny. Matt Damon played him. But where did this project come from before we started talking about it?

[Sonny Vaccaro]

So our relationship has, you know, it's. We don't talk every month, we didn't talk every week, but we talked quite a bit over the last nearly 40 years. And I was in the midst of working on another book called the Price, which was a deep dive into the state of the chaotic state of big time college football, which came out last August. And In August of 23, I reconnected with Sonny because part of that book was the Edo Bannon landmark, O'Bannon, which.

[Brian Windhorst]

Sonny played a big role in.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Played a huge role, pivotal role, seminal role in it. And so when we were talking, I said to him, so how's the book? And as you well know, rumors around Sonny Vaccaro for the last almost seven or eight years were Sonny's working on a book and we didn't quite know who was working on it with him. There were all sorts of names that were sort of floating around, but I never knew who it really was.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, as a quick aside, there's been a movie made. Phil Knight has written the book. There's been 100 articles and magazine stories or whatever, but Sonny has never done.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

His story, never told his story his way. And that was what. So what I said to him was, I'm like, where are you with the book? And because he had said, you know, there's a great chapter in the, in our, in the price called Oppenheimer. And Sonny gave me this great quote. He goes, I was Oppenheimer. And I said to him, as I know you've said in the past to other people, please do not give that quote to anybody else ever again because it's such a good quote. So we were talking and as you mentioned, air had come out by then and the book had gone out to publishers, the proposal had gone out to publishers. And as can happen, all the publishers said, well, we already know the story because they had seen the movie, even though it was only four months of Sonny's life, of an 85 year old life. So I said, well, send it to me. Because I, by that time we, we talked, it was probably early 24 again when I was fact checking stuff. And I said, well, send me the proposal and let me look at it. And then. So they sent me the proposal and, and I was sort of like, it didn't really capture Sonny's life the way I think it should have been captured. And then I said, well, send me the manuscript. And because he says, we have a manuscript. Well, it was 152,000 words. And having written books, you know, that's like two books in one.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yes, about 70. I think the, the books I've written are about 70 or 80, maybe 80,000. Yeah, it was.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

It needed to be cut down and it needed to be reorganized and we really needed to be re. Centered and polished and trimmed. But the book was there, the stories were there, the detail was there, the color was there, the moments were there.

[Brian Windhorst]

I mean, this is, this is such an auto buy, an auto recommend, like literally. I am, I mean, seriously, you doing this project with Sonny. Yes. Instantaneous, Instantaneous success. I don't even care what's in it.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

You can probably name a half a dozen people that have done at least a half a dozen that have done one thing that changed the game, changed the world of sports. I can name five or six things that Sonny Vaccaro did in an improbable fashion, going back to the round ball, the Dapper Dan, and then paying coaches. Who comes up with that idea to pay coaches for shoe company money. And then obviously Michael Jordan and the Kobe signing.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, so let me stop you there. So obviously his background in coming from western Pennsylvania, I'm Sure. That's all in the book. I don't know, but there's. For my audience, I would just want to talk about three things in the time that we have. One, the Michael Jordan signing. So Phil Knight wrote a book where he wrote about it. David Falk wrote a book where he wrote about it. I don't know Phil Knight. I know David Falk a little bit. The movie was essentially Michael, Michael's story. It wasn't framed that way, but Michael's story where his mother is the hero of the story. Yes, as you can imagine in David Falk's book, David Falk is the hero of the story. I know who my preferred belief is because the man that I know is Sonny Vaccaro. So this is interesting now. And there's. Over the years, as you can imagine with anything, everybody's tugged and there's been this tension over whose version of stories. So I have to assume, again, not having read it and being excited about it. So I assume this is Sonny's version of the.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Oh, no question. And it's from the horse's mouth, right? I mean, there's. There's a 17 with 17 seconds to go in 1982 in that Georgetown, North Carolina game when Michael hits that huge critical shot, that is really the seminal moment for Sonny when he realizes that unlike anybody else who would at that point in time, Michael Jordan is different. Michael Jordan is a game changing athlete. And at that time, as you'll remember, in 82, Barkley was there, Elijah Juan was there, Stockton was there. That was a draft that was full. Sam Bowie was there, full of really great players. But were they transcendent athletes like Michael? Sonny saw that. And his story is, and it's the true story is he puts his. At that time, he's a pretty powerful figure at Nike. He puts his job on the line. He puts his career on the line By Nike, at Nike saying, take all your endorsement money that you're thinking about spreading out to these other athletes and roll it all into one. Go all in on Michael Jordan. And Phil Knight is like, whoa, wait a second here.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, because in Phil Knight's book, like, it's very clear, like Nike is this juggernaut now. But he was, he was, wouldn't say he was barely making payroll by the early 80s. But it wasn't like they were. They were flush with struggling tens of millions of dollars to throw around on marketing.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

They were like, they were like $250,000 was their entire marketing budget. And they're like, oh, we can give 30 here, 50. And Sonny goes, no, put it all in. And then I think the best. One of the best chapters in the book is the role that Billy Packer plays at the 84 Olympics. Well, I'll go back just quickly. Sonny has a meeting with Michael. He's never met him before. Set up by George Raveling at Tony Roma's restaurant in Santa Monica, where Sonny says to Michael, based on Rob Strasser, who was the marketing genius at Nike, look, we're going to go all in on you. We're going to. We're going to make a shoe. We're going to build our entire budget around. And Michael's like, thank you. I don't know Nike from schmikey. I've never put my foot in a Nike shoe before. Obviously, Converse at North Carolina. But I'm. If all things are equal, I'm signing with Adidas. And Sonny has to convince Michael a. To listen. Michael listens. They make the pitch, Michael's interested. But then it comes down to this, like, television moment. You can't make it up. Billy Packer and Phil Knight at meet at the Olympics set up by Sonny, where Billy Packer had been around. Phil Bob Knight, who was coaching the Olympic team and says, look, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm going to tell you straight in the face. I'm going to answer your questions. What Bob Knight said to me was, this guy has a chance to be the greatest of all time. And that's that moment, that seminal moment there was what convinced Phil Knight to go all in on Sonny's idea. And then there's so many other chapters with Michael. But talk about a moment in time. Talk about something. And like you, like you alluded to Viola Davis, who was great in Air as, as Michael's mom had little or nothing to do with it in real life, but dramatic tension in a movie. She's perfect there, but it's. And then as you alluded to, Brian, over the years, George Raveling, Michael Jordan and Phil Knight have all tried to rewrite history and rewrite those moments. Well, this is Sonny Vaccaro's story. And if we're going to pick one out of the. Out of the hat, I think Sonny's.

[Brian Windhorst]

Is the one that's. So I am biased, although I have immense respect for George Raveling and I find Phil Knight's book, Shoe Dog, although he kind of rushes through some segments that I'd like to know more about Nike's history, but forget about that. Shoe Dog is a classic memoir. Yes. And obviously I don't know, Phil, but a lot of respect, blah, blah, blah. I know the man of those three or of those people who has the best history of truth telling. It's Sonny. And, you know, the thing about Sonny is that, you know, when I was dealing with him during the LeBron shoe wars, everything he said came true. This is out of sequence. Cause I was gonna ask about Kobe, but I'll never forget this. My writing partner at the time, Tom Reed, was my writing partner at the time we were covering this shoe story. I'll never forget. Like, we were thinking LeBron was gonna. Was gonna get maybe 30 or 40 million, okay? Which was unbelievable because Kobe was coming to Nike at that point. He was getting 40 million. So the idea that LeBron would get the same as Kobe, who had won three championships, was ridiculous. And the bidding was going on. And, you know, Sonny was. Was being honest with us. He was like, you. You know, and he was like, listen, it's going to be a hundred million. And we're like, sonny, a million. We can't put a hundred million in the paper. We will look like fools. He was like, do yourself a favor. Put that. It's going to be a hundred million. It's going to be 100 million. And so what I'm just saying is, in the moment, as he's trying to sign LeBron, he is being honest, probably more honest than he should have been. And I sent a message.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

He was sending a message. And that part of that is he wanted his. His rivals to know that Adidas was willing to go. And this is where the chapter is called A Betrayal in Malibu. That's a great scene.

[Brian Windhorst]

A betrayal in Malibu, because they rented a. A mansion in Malibu. Yeah, it was a Lakers playoff game. They send a jet out for LeBron. You know, one of Sonny's lieutenants, a wonderful guy named Chris Rivers, lived in Akron for, like, a year. They recruited LeBron. You know, Sonny met and formed a relationship. Adidas was what LeBron wore throughout high school. He had. You know, he brought LeBron to his ABCD camp. LeBron had an incredible affinity and trust for Sonny. LeBron's mother, Gloria had incredible trust. And, you know. You know, I wrote about this extensively, Armin. I don't want to go over that. But when they turned down the money at Reebok, his first pitch, he famously gets this. You know, LeBron just told the story. It just was refreshed on the Kelsey Brothers podcast, where they gave him a $10 million cashier's check. And, you know, this is the guy who went to. He went to high school that day. 303. That's because I know I went to the same high school. The bell rings, 303, a limbo comes and gets him, takes him to the airport. They get on a jet, fly in a private jet. I don't know if he'd ever been on a private jet before. I think it was probably the first time to the Reebok headquarters outside Boston. He's still living in the projects. His. Well, his mother is. He's living in a different house, but his mother is still living in government housing. And they say to him, if you sign with us today, you may take this 100, this $10 million check with you tonight. Tomorrow you can deposit it and have $10 million. Okay? He says no. Do you know, one of the reasons he says no, Armin, is because he trusts Sonny. Okay. And so then you get to Malibu, and then you write about this in the book.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

So it's May 10, 2003, and they're out there, and they have spent months putting this presentation together. Just boom, boom, boom, boom. And everything's going great until the moment where Sonny opens up the proposal and looks down and sees the number 70 million, not 100 million, 70 million. And a lot of legal language that says it was.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

And it was. It was like LeBron had to meet their expectations rather than Adidas meeting LeBron's expectations. And Gloria was there with LeBron, and it was, I can say, I think, in Sonny V. Carroll's life, I think, the greatest disappointment in his life. And that's the reason he left the deist. Because he thought he would. He had been lied to, not thought he knew he had been lied to. And it's a. It's an incredibly powerful moment because Gloria looks at Sonny, LeBron looks at Sonny, and Sonny knows what they're thinking is, this isn't what we expected. And Sonny feels like he has betrayed them when really Adidas has betrayed him. And so it's one of those moments.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah. I mean, Aaron Goodwin, who probably will write a book someday, who. LeBron's agent, he described it to me as, Sonny was embarrassed. He was. You know. You know, he was embarrassed. And, you know, again, Sonny has delivered Michael Jordan to Nike, the single greatest decision in the history of athlete endorsement, marketing, one of the biggest decisions in American business. If you. I mean, you know, maybe there. You know, there's hedge funds or whatever, but, you know, he delivered Kobe Bryant to Adidas, which think if Adidas had gotten LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, you know, by the way, Adidas messed it up. Kobe ended up leaving. You know, there's another great chapter is.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Like, this whole head fake they have with Kobe perhaps going. And it really starts with Jelly Bean, Brian, his father, being at the ABCD camp, and Sonny's like, jelly Bean. This is my son, Kobe.

[Tim Bontemps]

Kobe.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

He plays in the ABCD camp the first time and comes up to Sonny at the end of the camp. He's kind of blown people away at.

[Brian Windhorst]

The end of the camp.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

And he apologizes to Sonny, and Sonny goes, what are you apologizing for? Oh, Mr. Vucaro, I'm really sorry I didn't win the MVP award. The MVP award. He's apologizing to Sonny. So that's the beginning of the relationship. And Sonny comes to the east coast, and my wife and I Didi saw he and Pam sometimes in New York on the Upper east side, but he's kind of on the east coast because he wants to keep his eye on Kobe but not be in Philly, so it's not so obvious. And then you get to the draft, and it's a wonderful story. John Calipari is, at the time the head coach of the New York. That's New Jersey Nets. Excuse me. And there's a head fake even going back before that. Brian. There's this great moment where, you know, it, where Jerry west is in the stands, and they have a private workout with Kobe against Michael Cooper, of all people, who's then 41, but he's still Michael Cooper, defensive wizard. And Kobe just schools him in this. In this workout. Jerry watches it. I say, Jerry, like. Jerry west watches it for, like, 10 minutes and says, okay, we're good. We aren't. We got to figure out a way.

[Brian Windhorst]

Yeah.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

Got to figure out a way to move up in the draft. They figure out they make the trade for Vladi Divich. They get Kobe. Well, they have an opportunity for Kobe. And then there's this moment where the New Jersey Nets are going to pick right before the Lakers, and Calipari is there and his staff is there, and it's this great head fake. I don't know, John. I don't know. Cal. He could be going to Italy. You're telling me you'd go to Italy instead of go to the NBA? I don't know. I'm just telling you that's a possibility. And they get Carrie Kdels, who's a great guard, but he's not Kobe Bryant. And so Sunny finds himself like Zelig, you know, he finds himself in the middle of all this stuff. But the reason is, Brian, and you alluded to it, is Sonny Vacaro's word was his bond. When he said something to you, you knew it was going to happen that way or that you could trust the information coming from him. And I think you live in this world far more than I ever have. But you get to know when somebody says A, it's going to be A, but with other people, it could be B or C, depending upon how they're working the, you know things.

[Brian Windhorst]

All you need to know about Sonny Vaccaro is he was in on the ground floor, I mean, the dirt ground floor of Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. And keep in mind, he delivers that. Whatever you want to play with the verbiage or whatever story you got. He delivers Jordan to Nike, he delivers Kobe to Adidas, and plays whatever role he played, whether it was a 5% role or a 28% role in getting Kobe to the Lakers. So that. And then he's delivered. He is on the verge of delivering LeBron. Now. Maybe we'll never know how far Nike would have gone. Nike didn't even match Reebok. So, you know, maybe LeBron would have wildly gone with Nike, but he was on the, the goal line or the five yard line or whatever of delivering LeBron to, to Adidas. And Adidas didn't back him. Adidas didn't back him. I mean, this is a guy who delivered Michael and delivered Kobe.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

And Sonny said this week when we were talking, he goes, lebron is, he's the perfect, perfect endorser for, for a shoe company because he's so, he's so clean in, in that way. You know, there's no scandal associated with LeBron. He has been everything that Nike could have wanted and more. And all Sonny could think about was if that had been Adidas, you know, there might be a difference now in the, you know, in the pecking order, in, in the shoe world.

[Brian Windhorst]

Well, I, I'm running out of time, Armin. That's okay. My highest recommendation for Legends and Souls and really my highest recommendation for Sonny Vaquero and my highest recommendation for just about anything Armin has done. But if you like Legends and Souls, which I would be stunned that you would not like, and I say this blind, then after you enjoy Legends and Souls, then go read the Tiger woods or listen to whatever, to the Tiger woods book. I am so glad that Sonny did this. And I've listened to Sonny and you doing some interviews for this, and it's very. I hadn't talked to Sonny in a number of years, and while it was important for me to talk to you, I'm so glad that at age 85, Sonny is still so sharp and that this was able to be pretty.

[Sonny Vaccaro]

I know. You're absolutely right. All right, man. Thanks a lot.

[Brian Windhorst]

Thank you very much. We'll talk to you. We'll talk to you later. Okay. So excited about that book. Truly enjoyed that conversation with Arman Kitayan. My respect level for Sonny Vaquero is immense, and I believe he's a hall of famer. Okay, thank you. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bontems. Thank you to Jackson and Rafa, our producers. Thank you for watching. Listening to the Hoop Collective, man. It's your turn to buy me lunch. Let's go. We'll talk to you next week.

[Bam Adebayo McMahon]

Adios, amigos.

[Brian Windhorst]

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